Theology in the Raw - Jesus: Friend of Sinners. Reflections for Lent with Elyse Fitzpatrick

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

Become a member of the TITR community on Patreon to check out our "Extra Innings" conversation about why Christian women struggle with so much guilt.Register for Exiles in Babylon: www.theologyintheraw.com/exiles26Elyse holds a certificate in biblical counseling from CCEF (San Diego) and an M.A. in Biblical Counseling from Trinity Theological Seminary. She has authored 23 books on daily living and the Christian life, including her recently released Friend of Sinners: Lent Devotions on Following the Crucified King. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

For the last 20 years, as I've traveled around the country, just honestly, just talking about grace, and had countless women primarily, but also men, say to me, why have I never heard this before? I've been in church for 30 years. And I've never heard about justification. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in Iran. My guest today is at least Fitzpatrick, who holds a certificate in biblical counseling and an M.A. biblical counseling from Trinity Theological Seminary. She has authored more than 25 books on daily living and the Christian life, including her most recent book, Friend of Sinners, Lent Devotions.

I'm following the Crucified King. If you want a great book for this coming in Lent. I would highly recommend checking it out. Also, stay tuned for our extra innings portion of this conversation, where Elise and I talk about why Christian women in particular struggle. was so much guilt. Are you a Christian woman? Do you feel overburdened with just guilt? Can't match up to this, can't vent up to that. And you have all these external standards hanging over your head. Oh, man. Homo said, I know what that feels like, but I don't because I'm not a Christian woman.

But I do know a few. And they share this with me all the time. And Lisa, Elise and I get into it. It gets a little spicy. I almost got myself in trouble. But if you want to watch the extra innings portion of our conversation, head over to patreon.com forward slash theology and raw and become a member of the theology in the raw community. So without further ado, please welcome back to the show, my friend, the one and only Elise Fitzpatrick. Oh, Elise Fitzpatrick. How are you on this fine? What day is this Tuesday? This fine Tuesday morning? I'm really well, Preston. Thank you. Thank you. Any snow out there in San Diego in the San Diego area? It's actually been really beautiful. It's been so warm. Yeah.

70s? I mean, you're... Yeah, I mean, we actually had some days in the 80s the last couple days. It's been unseasonably warm. I'm not complaining. I lived there two years, my two years out of high school, went to college in San Diego, and just absolutely fell in love with the city. I love, it is my favorite city in the country. And, yeah, shout out to all those San Diegoes out there.

I'm jealous. I find excuses. Does the go have to have to fly down to San Diego. Have to go to San Diego. We have to go to San Diego and have lunch with a lease, you know. Oh, yes. Go to the beach, eat fish tacos, that sort of stuff. The food.

I don't know how you handle the food scene. Well, you're not in San Diego, San Diego, but you're an Escanita, right? We're in Escondito. So we're a little north, but San Diego's total foody place. Oh, gosh. I mean, any kind of food you want. Yes. It's here.

And we have the best. the best, I think the best quasi-American Mexican food. Yes. And hole in the wall places all over the city. It's so good. People that aren't from San Diego, even if they visit, they don't quite understand that there is a genre of taco shop food that does not exist

north of Escondido, even Los Angeles. Yeah. Even Los Angeles. Yeah. You get a carneasada burrito at Roberto's or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And it's 90% seasoned, like just the most tasty carnia sata with pico de gallo and guac. And that's it. No fillers, no beans and rice and fries and all this stuff. It is a massive ball of carnia sata meat. Anywhere else, you can't get that anywhere else.

Right? Or a California burrito. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which is that, what you just said, with french fries. because you know. You need more calories than that burrito.

Yeah. Listen. My favorite thing, let's just talk about food. Let's see this. Yeah, that's what we're going to do the whole hour is talking about. Yeah. My favorite thing is a Machaka burrito. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, right? So you get that for breakfast. It's breakfast. It's breakfast food. Oh, man. And the tortillas. You can't get them anywhere else. And now we have a very vibrant Asian community.

Filipino community, and there are so many good far places. I mean, it's crazy. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. All right. Because, listen, if you live in San Diego, it costs so much to live here. You don't really have money to go to the restaurant, but you do anyway. You do anyway.

A lot of credit card debt down there in San Diego. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Then, yeah, these people who've been living there for 50 years and they bought their house for $75,000 in Ocean Beach. It's worth like $3.2 million. Exactly. Two-bedroom one bad.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's crazy. You can't break into the market now unless you have like two incomes, two really nice incomes. Otherwise, you can't buy here now. It's just nuts.

Yeah. Well, what else is going on? You are, we'll talk about your book in a second. You're coming out with an Advent, not Advent, a Lent book. Lent book, what I want to talk about? So you, you're a preacher of grace. That sounds so generic, but you know what I mean. I know what I mean.

Yeah. What, when did you feel like you first understood the true depths? of the radicality of God's grace. Is that something that was early on, mid-Christian life? And what was that like? Yeah, so I got saved in 1971. Wow. And, yeah, was it before you were born?

I was born in 76. That's okay. That's okay. So I've been saved longer than you've been alive. Literally. And when I first got saved, I mean, I was blown away by God's grace, whole gig, yeah. But then I got involved in the whole Christian scene, went to Bible college, learned all the things I was supposed to do in order to get the bus down the road. And sort of

slid, not away from Christ, but away from that message of grace. And then I was doing a Bible study with some people. And one particular person gave me Tim Keller stuff. And she said, you're missing the gospel, English. I'm like, excuse me? And so then I started reading Keller about grace. And then

I'll be honest with you. I didn't like it. I thought, oh, this is all that, this is all that gray stuff. People are so, they're such pansies, you know. Too afraid to call sin sin, sin?

Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah. And so I started reading about Keller and then I read Brennan Manning and then, you know, and then it was over. Okay. Yeah. Right. So I would have said, I would have said, yeah, of course, God saves us by his grace. But then, you know, you got to do all the things.

And yeah, you do have to do the things, but you do the things out of gratitude because your heart and mind is so soaked in God's great love for you and welcome. Hey, Preston, listen, I was just rereading a, I was rereading a Brennan Manning book on the relentless tenderness of Jesus. Have you read that? No. Blow your mind. Relentless tenderness of Jesus. And in it, he talks about God being fond of you. Preston, listener.

God is fond of you. See, it's one thing to say God loves us. God's who love the world, yada, yada, which is true. But he's actually fond of you, who you are as a person. He knows you and is fond of you. Does that change it up? My friend Brad Sarian used to say, God doesn't just love you who actually likes you.

Which is funny because like seems less significant than love, but we're so used to saying the love of God, it's almost so watered down. It doesn't mean. I mean, the fact means a lot, but repeating the line God loves you has lost its luster. Yeah. God actually likes you.

Yeah. It's like, oh, wait, what? He actually likes you. And you know what else? He's not disappointed. Wow. What about when we screw up, when we screw up? Yeah.

So he says, come to me. Yeah. Listen, to be disappointed means that you had certain expectations of someone that they didn't fulfill. God knows you best. And when you screw up, when I screw up, it's not, it's like, where'd that come from? He knows you and Eddie's fond of you. So go to him. Yeah.

Run to him, flee to him. And he's always there. Just, yeah. Come on. Wow. I don't know if you're into comedians and I always get nervous mentioning comedians, but Bill Burr is not a the And I wouldn't recommend some of his comedy. Some of it I would highly recommend.

But when he talks about religion, he is not religious at all. He gets like half of it kind of right. And when he gets half of it right, it's like really right. You know, like he started talking about God. And he's like, what do you expect? You made me this way. You created the world all these. And he's just got to be funny.

But I'm like, oh, man. But there's some truth there. And like, yeah, you would, like, he knows how fragile we are. He knows. Yeah. That when we mess up, like, it's not like, yeah, we're born in a fallen body and a fallen world through no choice of our own. And so when we are experienced temptations or even given the temptations, like, it's not,

I don't know, I don't know, no excuse for sin. But I mean, it's, he gets, he gets our weakness. That's what Hebrew says, right? He empathizes with our weakness, was made in every way as we are, though, without sin, you know. Yeah. Yeah, he empathizes because he's really fond of you. Hmm. Wow.

Grab that word, Preston. Fawn. I like that. I like that. I like fresh, less familiar words that capture old theological truths to sort of breathe fresh life into them. The Exiles in Babylon conference is happening again, April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis, and this one is going to be spicy. We're talking about mental health and the gospel.

How should the church respond to immigration? We're also having a dialogical debate about Christians and war with Shane Claiborne and Paul Copan. And we're also having another dialogical debate between Peter Enz and Sandy Richter over the historical reliability of the Bible. We also added a pre-conference addressing how Christians should think about artificial intelligence. We have several experts coming to lead us in that conversation. Other speakers include Dan Allender, Matthew Sorens, Liliana, Reza, Joshua Smith, Chinway Williams, and several others. And of course, worth the price of admission, Street Hymns is coming back as well, folks. Most of all, the in-person

experience at exiles is just super unique. I mean, it's, I don't know. If you've been there, you know what I'm talking about. It's hard to describe. You just got to go and experience it for yourself. Just head over to TheologyEnra.com to register. We also have a heavy, heavily discounted Gen Z price. Don't lie about your age. You've got to be Gen Z. And also discounts on groups of five or more. Again, that's April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis. Register at theology and the raw.com. Can women be leaders in the church? Pastors, overseers, teachers, preachers, and elders. This is a question that I have long been interested in, but haven't studied it out for myself. And as always, the strength of our passion should match the depth of our study.

So this is what I did. I spent over three years researching what the Bible says about women in leadership. And I wrote a book about my conclusions. It's called From Genesis to Junia. And on a search for what the Bible really says about women in leadership. And in it, I thoroughly examine all the main passages and arguments on both sides of the debate and try to treat them as fairly as I know how. The book comes out in March, March 3rd, but you can pre-order it today wherever books are sold. You've spoken to how many thousands of millions or billions of people. You've written tons of books. You're around, you know, been around so many Christians talking about grace.

Do you find that many Christians don't quite fully understand the magnitude of God's grace? Is that something you run into a lot? And what does that look like when you are like, I don't know if you're quite there yet with grace? Yeah. Okay. So. Yeah. I mean, I think that, oh, I, God help me not to be arrogant. Okay. It's really easy to be arrogant. But for the last 20 years, as I've traveled around the country, just honestly, just talking about grace, and had countless women, primarily, but also men. say to me, why have I never heard this before? I've been in church for 30 years, and I've

never heard about justification. Wow. It's kind of a big doctrine. Kind of. I mean, Luther says Christianity stands or falls by justification. So I've said for years, it's a waste-halling wilderness in a lot of evangelicalism. And if you would permit me, I didn't ask you if I could say this or not, but I'm going to say it anyway. Because, you know, you have everybody on here, so it's okay. You could say whatever you want, Lisa. The reason that a lot of the American church is enamored with political power right now,

really on either side, but primarily in one direction, is because they haven't heard the gospel. Because... Oh, do go. Keep going. I don't know where you're going with this, but I like the direction. See, Jesus is the king and the Savior. And if you've missed him. and thought that Christianity was about political power and, you know, giving you the life you want as, you know,

21st century American, then, and if you don't, if you don't get who Jesus is and the way, which leads us a little bit to Lent, in Jesus, Temptations in the wilderness, he absolutely eschewed, turned his back on power, worldly power. Listen, he's the king, but he said no to worldly power when it was offered to him. And that was why he could stand the way he did against the religious elite of his day and against, you know, of course, Rome. So, you know, I will go into, and you know, I don't get invited, well, I don't get invite anywhere anymore, but I would get invited to, you know, serious churches, not, you know, Fluffyville, get invited to serious churches. And I would ask the people I was speaking to, sometimes hundreds of them. what does the word justification mean? Shout it out if you know it.

And I would start them off, just as if I, and some of them maybe two, three would say, never sinned? Right. Okay, good. So justification is forgiveness, just as if I never sinned. But also justification is as if I had always obeyed. Oh, wow. It's my record.

Wow. And Preston, they do not know it. They don't know it. They've never heard it. And I say it to them, and you should see it. It's just like, what? And I ask, what would your life be like? if you lived guilt-free, what would it be like?

And how would you love your neighbor then? Because, of course, that's the whole point. Right. Love God, love your neighbor. So the reason, I think, that the American Church has been captivated. I wouldn't say the whole church, but a lot. It's been captivated by the love of political power. is because they don't know that.

And they're hoping that somehow somebody's going to make them okay. Because they haven't heard it. They're not connecting the dots between like Jesus' kingship, the gospel, and worldly, quote-unquote, kingship, worldly attempts for good news. They're seeing these in two separate spheres. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they don't.

And so because Jesus is sort of absent, I mean, they would say, oh, yeah, we love Jesus. But because the gospel itself is absent, they're looking for a king. Keller used to always say, we're all looking for a good king. And so because they don't see Jesus. And they'll say, oh, yeah, he is the king. Jesus is the king. But they don't know how that sort of fleshes out in their life. But I think a lot of people have this individualistic view of kingship.

He reigns in my individual heart. He's my personal savior. I accepted him into my heart. He reigns over my heart. And then he's my personal savior. It's very individualistic rather than I'm acknowledging the object of fact of his kingship over the world. which relegates and minimizes and confronts other worldly attempts at kingship.

These are not unrelated. Jesus' kingship and worldly rule are not categorically unrelated. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, if Jesus is, in fact, the king ruling over all the world, then the way that I respond to my neighbor changes. because he's the king of my neighbor too. Interesting. So if he were here physically, how would I treat my neighbor? And now, you know, it's easy for me to throw rocks at people who I think aren't treating their neighbor, right? But then that comes to me and, you know, how do I, how do I honor my neighbor and think about my neighbor as someone.

for whom who was made in the image of God and who Jesus would rule over. How do I treat that person? See, and you've done good work with a gay community. So how do I treat people in the gay community? Well, they're created in the image of God. and because they are, I must honor them and give them the dignity of being human, created in God's image. And Jesus is king over everything. He's king over the universe.

That's good. What do you, well, I was going to ask, and maybe you already answered it, like when you talk to Christians and they're just not quite fully getting, you know, the radicality of grace. What do you say? Is it what you just did? Is this what you say? Did the lights come on or are there other ways of framing it to where people like, oh, I haven't thought about it like that?

Yeah. So a lot of what I just said, but then also, you know, it has to be the work of the Holy Spirit, right? So if people will say to me, I feel like I'm almost there, and I've had this conversation, I feel like I'm almost there, but I'm not quite, let's pray and ask the Lord to open your heart and mind to this truth. And the Holy Spirit, I've watched, I've been in conversations where the Holy Spirit just sort of shows up so beautifully, shows up, and people just go, oh, oh, is this? this what you mean? It's like one time I was talking with a young woman who was really struggling and I was telling her that, you know, when God looked at her, he not only looked at her as being

forgiven of sin, but also looked at her as having this perfect record, Christ's perfect record. And she said to me, isn't God just kidding himself? I love the honesty of that. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that beautiful? Because that's how most of us feel. Yeah, yeah. And I said, oh, good.

Good. You're wrestling with this. Let the Holy Spirit open your eyes. Because, you know, it's a turn. And I mean, I had been a Christian for probably, let's say 15 or 18 years when I made this turn. So, I mean, the Lord used me beforehand. And I mean, I, you know, I was serving God, but then this turn happened.

And Preston, I said, I only have one thing to say now. Now I'm going to say it in all sorts of different contexts, you know, about how to raise your kids, how to do counseling, how does it affect women, all sorts of different ways. I will say the same thing over and over again. Jesus Christ died for sinners and was raised, Romans 4 says, for our justification. So he died for my sin and was raised for my justification. And I'm going to say that all over again, over and over again and I'll be honest with you there are some days that I believe it yeah and some days that I'm like I sort of I get there sort of I mean if you press me yeah of but I mean in my acting like I actually believe it which means I don't have to fight for my rights I don't have to fight for my

reputation to prove that I'm really okay. See, if I've got the king of the universe who is fond of me, I don't have to fight to protect my reputation. I mean, I'm not saying it's okay, just let anybody say. But I don't have to fight for that anymore. You know what's interesting? I had a good friend of mine, Tim Gombus, years ago, we were talking about. And he said something that stood out like a bright light. And he wasn't intending it to.

We're talking about, you know, what's it like getting slandered? We were both college professors at the time. And he was just, he gets hit by a lot of stuff. And we're talking about that. How do you deal with, you know, slander and misrepresentation? He's like, man, I look, I'm justified by faith. I don't need to worry about that stuff. And it was so odd to hear the idea of justification by faith. the context is something that I'm like, wait, isn't justification just a so theological doctrine to how we get saved? And for him, he just said in passing, like, I'm justified by God has pronounced me righteous based on grace through faith. And that has a direct correlation to seeking to be justified or needing to be justified, pronounced righteous, ascribed a good reputation from other

people. And I, I, I just, it was like two days later I kind of thought about. It was like, that's, it was kind of an odd place to put in justification of my faith, but it made so much sense. And it actually took this soteriological doctrine of salvation doctrine and made it immensely practical for our place in the world. So listen, right? If the king of the universe who actually knows you, yeah, yeah. You know, he doesn't know the, I mean, he sees this sort of outward, Preston, you know, Christian, whatever. Perfect husband, father, writer. Perfect husband, father, writer, dude.

He's, oh yeah, so he sees, but he sees past that into your heart. Yeah. And he's fond of you. Yeah. See, he's actually fond of you. If that's true, and we say, of course, that it is, if that's true, then, you, then, you, And, you know, if Bobo wants to slander me or say that I'm antonomian or I have, I'm apostate, okay. And, you know, let me, let me, see, I'm, I want to be, don't want to flatter myself.

I'm not all the way there. But I want to be humble enough that when I am criticized, I'm willing to hear it. Right. Right. And take it to heart. So maybe 90% of what they're saying is wrong, but maybe 10% of it is right. That's good. And I'm strong enough.

in Christ's fondness for me because, you know, his opinion's the only one that actually matters. Right. I'm secure enough in that that I can take it and seek to love my enemies. Yeah. How do you love your enemies, Preston?

Not very well. I mean, how do we do? I mean, how? You know, you get stuck. slandered. I know you do. Because you're seeking to say what you actually think is there, not what's going to make people happy. And so when you're slandered, how do you love your enemies? You know, Jesus, he was misjudged and slandered. Listen, not only by the religious elite who were utterly clueless, or by Rome who, you know, of course,

you know, they would. But his own disciples did not get it. As Brendan Manning says, none of them were truly saved. Really? Until the resurrection. They didn't get it.

So you spend three and a half years pouring your life into people and they're utterly clueless. And they think you're there to get rid of Rome. They missed it entirely. Wow.

And he, on the night he was betrayed, took bread and broke it and gave it to them and said, this is my body, broken for you. And he poured out wine, and he gave it to them and said, this is my blood, the blood of the new covenant shed for you. Jesus loved his enemies,

and he actually even loved his friends who were just so. Well, even, I mean, Judas was there that night, right? And even in John 13, he also washed their feet and washed Judas's feet. And it's funny, the way John even sets up that story, he emphasizes that Satan had put in the heart of Judas to betray it. Like the whole story is set up with this guy is already betraying Jesus and yet he still washes his feet.

Yeah, think about that. So how do we do that? Well, I think, honestly, the only way that I even get close to doing it is by remembering how loved I already am. I'm utterly secure in Christ. So, you know, maybe the people who are criticizing me are right and may God help me to listen. And maybe they're wrong and God will help them.

And there's going to come a day, a really gorgeous day when we'll all be together on the new earth. And sitting around having a picnic together. And Jesus will come up. And we'll say, oh, hey, we were just talking about you. And he'll say, hey, let's have lunch. Like that. And he'll sit down with us. And there won't be.

And all of this will be gone. It'll all be gone. I mean, we'll remember it. But we'll remember it the way we're supposed to remember it. It's like, isn't that gorgeous? So that's hard to wrap your mind around that. Yeah. What kind of accusations do you get?

You mentioned antinomian. I would imagine that. Like if you emphasize, the more you emphasize grace, the more people are going to say, well, you're neglecting obedience as if it's some kind of zero-sum game. Like you have to draw from the well of obedience to fill up the well, you know, the bucket of grace or whatever. And it's not,

doesn't quite work that way, does it? But is that the main? Like what, why would someone say you're an apostate? I don't get that. Well, yeah, there are certain places where if you don't sort of dot the eye and cross the T exactly the way they do, that then they assume that you've lost it all. Yeah. And I think that because I had a reputation of being, I didn't know it at the time, but I was very law-heavy. In other words, talked a lot about all the rules all the time.

And, you know, it's easy to talk about. And so then when I changed, I think it was such a shock. for certain groups of people, that they automatically jumped to, well, okay, so she's lost everything. Oh, okay. Because, yeah, used to, and maybe this isn't wrong,

but you used to have more of an audience in some more traditional, like, very kind of more conservative, maybe even fun modelist versions of Christianity. Yeah, I remember when I was at Masters College, there was a book that all the home-ecan majors, home-economic majors, read that you wrote on, is it excellent? No, excellent wife wasn't mine. That's Martha. What was the one you wrote, though?

You wrote one, right? So, like, women helping women. Maybe that was it. Yeah. One of your really early books, I think. Yeah, like women helping women. And, yeah. Excellent life.

That's right. my friend Martha she's yeah my friend um yeah i was i was really i was very welcomed there because i wasn't rocking the boat i was upholding the status quo but when jessica thompson and i wrote i mean i i think because he loves me sort of made him look at me kind of i don't know. But then when we wrote, Give Them Grace, that was a bridge too far. Okay. Yeah. And that's when we got jettisoned from certain very fundamentalist groups. Okay. Okay. Because what they said, have they actually read the book and not just the title, they would have known what we were saying, but they said that we were saying you're not supposed to give your kids.

rules or discipline them. It's like, we're not insane. So that's what they said. And because they said that, then they would no longer sell my books and bookstores and stuff like that. That's becoming so normal for the most aggressive critics to be the least likely to actually read a book that they criticize. I don't know if that, I don't know if that's, is that just a Christian thing or is that pretty widespread? I don't know the answer to that. I think people are basically lazy. Yeah. So it's not just unique to Christianity. No, but you would think Christians would be better at. Yeah. If you're going to criticize somebody, then at least do them the honor of actually

understanding their position. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's so, that's very rare. I mean, in the scholarly world, because I live in two different worlds, like, obviously, you can't get it away with like a peer reviewed published review unless it's you can't just throw a strawman accusation so so it still definitely exists in the evangelical scholarly world but outside of that it's just it's very rare for a critical review and the more aggressive the more critical it is i feel like the least likely that they actually read the book or read it with any kind of like desire to understand like you said desire to understand what the author's trying to say So like when Eric and I wrote Worthy,

Eric took a lot of heat for that because he's a, he's a Southern grad, you know. And so someone said, who had not read the book, somebody said, well, you're now worshipping at the altar of feminism. And I mean, Worthy is so conservative. I mean, it really is so conservative. You know, celebrating the value of women.

Excuse me, I guess I shouldn't say that. Whenever anybody accused, I've, well, not yet been accused of feminism, but I always ask, well, which wave? Yeah, right. Everybody should at least be a 1.5 wave feminist. Yeah. Probably two point. Maybe, okay, third wave feminist starts to get off the rails. Fourth wave is just contradictory or whatever.

But like, what do you mean by that? Like, yeah. I mean, feminism 100 years ago was women should vote and they're equal in ontology, you know, ontologically equal to men. And hopefully we're all on board with first wave feminism. If not many aspects of second wave feminism. Anyway, I think probably, no, that's quite right. I think that there is a voice now that is saying things like, well, women should not vote. I know, right?

I saw that recently. Isn't that wild? That's wild. Wow. Crazy times. 2026. All right. Let's talk about.

So you, coming back to Grace, you write a book, A Friend of Sinners. Yeah. What's the subtitle again? I had my notes here. Lent. Go ahead. Lent devotions on following the crucified king. I love that title so much.

I love everything about this. What led you to want to write? Have you done like a devotional sort of thing before? And why let, why now? Yeah. So I, Preston,

I don't think I've written a devotion. No, sure. How many books have you written? Do you know? Yeah. Over two dozen. Okay. Okay.

So I've not ever done anything like this. I've certainly never done anything on Lent. And if you would have asked me seven years ago, do you observe Lent? I would have gone, what? What's that? What's that? So 2020, it's the pandemic.

And we're in the SoCal, so we're stuck at home. And my daughter, Jessica, says, hey, mom, they're having an outdoor Ash Wednesday service. Why don't you come at an Episcopalian church, actually. You want to go? And I said, well, why not? I mean, I'm stuck at home listening to Phil Breed. So, right? there was some point during at some point during the lockdown i i just thought please stop breathing

in my direction you know okay anyway oh the stories from spouses are the pandemic i know right there were some babies made at that time yes true there were i'm controlling myself I was waiting. I was waiting to see. I threw you a carrot and I was going to see it. Shiny object. You're going to chase this. Shiny object.

Ooh, shiny object. Okay, so we go. Back to Ash Wednesday. We go. And we're standing outside. Maybe there's 20 or 30 of us. And we have these little individual jars of ashes. Because, you know, we can't even touch each other at this point.

Right. Oh, yeah. Pandemic. Yeah. And put ashes on my forehead. And when you do that, the words that are being said are, remember, you are dust, and to dust, you will return. Something happened in me at that point. Because I don't think I had fought about that deeply at all.

I mean, did I know I was going to die? Yeah, of course. And I mean, but to actually spend a moment, even just a moment, remembering who I am, I am dust, and to dust I will return. And that calls forth, Preston, a seriousness about the moments we have left. So we, you know, Lent, Lent was, the observance of Lent actually started, we have records from like 350, 80. The church was observing Lent. And it's a 40-day fast, and we'll talk about that, but those 40 days are meant to remind us of Jesus 40 days in the wilderness. where he fasted.

One of the gospel writers, maybe Mark, says he was starving. And he was with the wild animals. One of the gospel writers also says this. And he, during that, at his very weakest physically, he fights Satan. Satan comes to him and tempts him. tempts him to use his power to make bread, satisfy his physical needs. Use your power to satisfy your physical needs.

Go up on top of this temple and throw yourself off because, you know, God will save you. You know, so tempt God in some sort of audacious, prove you're really God thing. prove you love me. And then, of course, if you fall down, just give Satan just a little, a little hallelujah, you know? Just a little worship.

Then he'll give you all the kingdoms of the world. So Lent, see, we fast during Lent and people can choose whatever kind of fast they want to do. fasting during Lent is meant to remind you of what Jesus did, but it does another, and make you grateful for it, but it does another thing, it shows you how susceptible to failure you are. Because just as soon as you say, I'm going to fast whatever, and don't say I'm going to fast kale, because nobody wants to eat that. but like I'm going to I'm going to fast some food or I'm going to fast lunch or I'm going to fast from social media. As soon as you say that, that's the thing you're going to really want. And that teaches us about our own hearts and our sin and then we come to Jesus and he says, yeah, I'm really fond of you.

It's okay. You're trying. Keep trying. So 40 days from Ash Wednesday to Easter, not counting Sundays. Because Sunday is feast day. Oh. Oh, so every Sunday people can drink alcohol, eat meat. Right.

Eat kale. Yeah, eat kale. Pound that kale. Pound it. So then, hopefully by the time you get to Good Friday. your heart's a little bit softened up to what Christ is doing for you. Because you've had a glimpse, a sliver. Yeah, yeah.

A peek into the trials and temptations of Jesus. Yes. Yeah. And then you get there and you see how much he's really your friend and he loves you. Wow. And then Easter happens. and it's like, it's beautiful, it's so great. See, the point in one sense, the point of the Lenton fast

is the celebration of the empty tomb. So, I mean, I'm still new at it, and I really love it. but what I wanted to do with friend of sinners was help people see, first of all, how much Jesus really loves his people and he's their friend, and what it cost him to love them. Because your friendship always comes with the cost. So what it cost him personally to love them, even though they were so screwed up and just could, not get past the thought that he was going to do what they wanted him to do up to the very end

and and and to see how much he loved and so i you know i just go through gospel stories it's just mostly i think it's all gospel stories stuff stories from the gospel where jesus turns everything upside down. And all the things that they thought they understood and all the things we think we understood, he just turns everything upside down and says, nah, this is what friendship with me looks like. And honestly, for me, Preston, the writing of this book was different than anything I've ever done before. I would wake up at 4.30 in the morning with a story, with a gospel. story in my mind and start writing.

And that's not, that's not, that's not normal for you to have those kind of, no, no. It was a different thing. So, I just, what I'm really hoping, I'm really hoping, that people who maybe have never even thought about land will find some place to go and experience the imposition of ashes. It's a thing. Here in San Diego, we have a group called Hope for San Diego, and they sponsor a Ash Wednesday service where we have like 30 different churches come together. And we have a time of communal repentance and lamentation, lament for our sin, for the sin of our city,

San Diego, the city of our city, the sin of our nation, the sins of our church. And then we receive the imposition of ashes. You are a dust, and to dust you will return. Remember that? And then receive the absolution. If you believe in Jesus Christ, then all your sins are for. given. Now, live for the next six weeks in light of the fact of what Jesus has done, and seek to serve your neighbor. So one of the other things that's really great about Lent is that maybe what you

can say is, you know, instead of doing X, X, whatever it is on Saturday that I really dig, I'm going to figure out some way to help my neighbor, whether that means help my neighbor down the road who needs help, I don't know, shoveling snow or something, I don't know what people do, or, or, you know, get involved with a nonprofit that's seeking to help people on the margins. Yeah. Use this time. And then in all the ways that you do it and you're proud of yourself, you can repent. And in all of the ways that you seek to do it and you blow it, then you can say, thank you, Jesus.

thank you, Jesus, you did this perfectly in my place. Wow. I'm curious with Lent, why is it so associated with like the Catholic Church? Because you just said it goes back to 350 AD that far predates the Catholic Protestant divide, you know, that was just the church then. Like post-Referm, through the Reformation, was it just the Roman Catholic Church that continued practicing Lent and the reformers didn't? Or is this a more recent thing where Protestants typically...

I mean, I think there's been a resurgence among Protestant churches practicing land. But it's kind of bivoral, obviously, just kind of known as like, oh, that's a Catholic thing, you know. Yeah, I don't know the answer to that question as far as whether or not the reformers practiced the imposition of ashes or not. I think, excuse me, I'm going to make an assumption that they were so allergic to anything that. smacked of ritual that they really would have pushed against it. But I don't know that.

I know Episcopalians and Anglicans practice it. Oh, okay. So some of the more higher church kind of research. That's true. Yeah, if you're not a liturgical church, you're probably not going to do any kind of thing that smells liturgy. Yeah, yeah. But there's a lot, I feel like

there's a resurgence among younger non-denominational Protestant churches that are kind of going back to the church calendar on some level. Yes. Like at our church, which is non-denominational, we do practice the church calendar. So, you know, it's like we're so funny as Americans. You know, we feel like we've got to reinvent everything. Yeah. It's like we know how to do it better than you do, even though, of course, you've been doing it for two.

thousand years. It's American spirit. Yeah, it is. Good at everything. Yeah, we are. Elise, I have another question for you, but I want to actually take this

to our extra innings portion of episode where this will be just for our Patreon supporters. It has to do with grace and women. You made a passing comment that is when you're talking about grace, sometimes it's, and you said especially women,

I'm not sure if that is because you primarily speak to women, which I know you speak to both men and women, or if you find there's a general tendency among women that don't, they have an even harder time maybe understanding grace and what might be the reasons for that. If you want to watch the extra innings portion of our conversation, head over to patreon.com forward slash theology in Raw, and become a member of the theology in the raw community.