Theology in the Raw - Leaving a Cult-Like Church and Becoming Free from People Pleasing: Jinger Duggar

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Jinger Duggar Vuolo grew up on TV. From the age of nine until twenty-seven, she appeared on her family's hit TLC reality shows, "19 Kids and Counting" and "Counting On." She is an author whose books include New York Times bestseller Becoming Free Indeed, her personal memoir The Hope We Hold and a children's book, You Can Shine So Bright. Jinger’s latest book is People Pleaser: Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations. She now lives in Los Angeles with her husband, Jeremy, and their two daughters, Felicity Nicole and Evangeline Jo. In her free time, Jinger enjoys traveling, hiking, and anything to do with good food. Register for the Exiles in Babylon conference (Minneapolis, April 3-5, 2025) at theologyintheraw.com -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. The Exiles in Babylon Conference is just a couple months away, April 3rd to 5th in Minneapolis, Minnesota. You're going to want to check this out. Got lots of amazing speakers showing up and some breakout sessions, after parties and meetups and on and on it goes. So if you want to check out the conference, theologyintheraw.com for all the information. Okay. My guest today is Ginger Duggar Volo, who from the age of nine until 27, appeared on her family's reality show, 19 Kids and Counting, and counting on.

Sorry, get that right. 19 Kids and Counting and Counting On. She's a New York Times bestselling author who's written several books, including Becoming Free Indeed. And her latest book is People Pleaser, Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations. Half of this conversation was getting to know Ginger and her upbringing both in a reality TV program and in a, as she calls it, a cult-like Christian-ish community led by Bill Gothard. And also, we talk a lot

about what it means to break free from people-pleasing. So, please welcome to the show for the first time the one and only Ginger Duggar-Bowman. All right. Welcome to Theology Raw, Ginger. I'm really excited about this conversation. I have a bunch of questions that I'm sure you get all the time. Can you take us back to what it was like growing up on a television screen? I mean, you know, your family upbringing is obviously unique, but then throw a bunch of TV cameras into that? Like, what was that like? Right. So I grew up from the age of 10 until 27 on a reality TV show with my family. And so all of those years we had camera crews at our house, anywhere from three to five days a week. They were

around and it was just normal life for us. That's what I thought normal was, as well as having 18 siblings, so there are 19 of us in total. My parents raised us in a Christian home, but that home was not without some theological error. We were raised in a setting under Bill Gothard's teaching where we were taught that to gain favor with God, we needed to do all of these rules that were taught to us by this man who we would consider maybe in that time of prophets sent from God to teach us these teachings that we would have never been able to discover through reading the Bible ourselves. And so it was kind of an interesting thing because I was taught the true gospel from my parents, but then Bill Godford quickly would teach us the opposite, which was he

said before you can come to God, I need you to do my certain steps, all these rules, and then these three steps to be able to break free from chains and bondage that you're in, and then you can come to God because you don't want to bring them into this mess. So there were teachings that were kind of conflicting in that setting, and it wasn't until later on that I started to realize that and come out of those teachings. But being raised in the public eye as well, it was interesting because we promoted all of that on the show for a majority of those years. And it was an interesting upbringing for sure. Yeah. Do you remember when, so you're 10 years old when it became a reality program. Do you remember what that feeling was for you at that time or is it kind of vague? It was a little crazy. I think whenever the cameras first came around, it was such a foreign

concept because we did not have TV in the home. That was also one of Bill Gothert's teachings was not to have a TV. And so having camera crews in the house, it was kind of strange because they would come in and initially, they filmed some documentaries about our family, and that was before the reality show started. So they would come in for a couple days, maybe three to five days, and then they would leave for a couple months and they come back.

Then they would film some more and then they would put all these pieces together into a documentary. And so it was hard not looking at the camera. Like you wanted to look right at it, and they were like, don't look at the camera, just do what you're doing. And so that side of things kind of felt a little awkward, uncomfortable,

but then it was interesting. You very quickly just started to realize, okay, this is just what we do, we're gonna go about our daily life. They're gonna go with me to the dentist, to learn to drive and all the things. It was just a very normal life. And in my mind, right?

That's all I thought it was, was like, just these guys are here and they also kept the same crew for most of that time. So we had actually the guy, one of the guys who was on the very first documentary, he was a camera guy and he ended up staying with us until the very end. And he was the producer at until the very end of the show. So he was with us that entire time.

So we had a lot of people that felt like family. So it didn't feel like there was a constant switch over in career, so it was kind of like, we'd miss them when they were out of town, or if they didn't come for a week, it would be like, ah, where's Scott, where's Bill? We would miss those guys, you know? Cause it was just what we were used to.

Yeah. Was it exciting for you? If I put myself in the shoes of a, back in my 10 year old self, I think I would have been like, well, this is cool. Look, we're getting this attention and we're getting famous and stuff. Or I can also imagine maybe it wasn't exciting at all.

Well, we didn't really know the fame side. We didn't understand any of that. Because like I said, we were so removed from the culture of all of those things, the celebrity culture because we didn't watch TV, we didn't read magazines, any of that stuff. Didn't even have, I think my grandpa and grandma would get a newspaper and every once in a while if our family popped up in it, they'd bring it over.

We were so disconnected from the world that it was not something that we thought was like, oh, this is super cool. We're doing this. It was just like, we're doing this. We didn't really think much beyond that, but the show did provide opportunities for us, which was, it was an amazing gift because with 19 kids, my dad was a very hard worker in real estate, car business, all the things he was trying to do to support a large family debt-free, which was another one of the teachings.

So he tried to do his best, worked super hard. And at the same time, you can provide only so much for that many kids. And when the show came along, it provided more opportunities for us to travel the world, to be able to have experiences that we wouldn't have to go out to eat, things like that, where we wouldn't have been able to do that. So it was just a different life once the show came around. Pete So, if your family was opposed to television, what led to them to not only getting a television but being on one? That seems like a contradiction. Yeah, that's such an interesting thought,

which sometimes I forget about that side of things. How strange would it be if I had never watched TV to be on it? And I don't, now having TV, I can think back to my younger self, think back to what my parents were thinking. Their ultimate goal was to share with the world that children were a blessing from the Lord.

That was what they would always say and they wanted to be able to promote that message. Bill Gawthard would give so much emphasis. He would put emphasis on really being light to the nations and sharing in whatever platform is allowed. So that was part of it. You're not letting it into your home, but you're putting it out for everybody to see. And so there was a difference there. And even though we had unbelievers in our home,

some of the crew, they were believers, but a majority weren't and had very different worldview from us. And so even that, in Bill Gawthorne's setting, maybe that wouldn't have been the safest idea. But it was still something that they felt like we were supposed to do. And they felt called to it.

And so they said yes. Now, let's just, I guess, fast forward. What was it like? Cause so you said you, well the name of the organization, Institute in Basic Life Principles, is that what it's called? The Bill Gothard, IBLP.

Did you, like, did your whole family end up leaving that? Or was it just you or you and some of your siblings? Are your parents still a part of that? Yeah. So, I realized, I think, it was closer to the time that I started talking to my now husband, Jeremy. He had no clue what my family was in. When he came around, he met us through my brother-in-law and started to like kind of get to know the family. He lived not in our same state, so he would come visit my brother-in-law here and there, who was not in those teachings. And they were kind of chatting or whatever. And it kind of opened my eyes once we started talking to how different these teachings were from anything

that was actually based in the Bible, because I had not even really stopped to consider that Bill Gothard would not be a prophet sent from God or he would not be a man teaching us these teachings to gain his favor with God. I think that when Jeremy came along, he was required to listen to 60 plus hours of teaching before we can move forward in our relationship. That was actually one of the biggest blessings from the Lord because I did not even realize how much I had just assumed this was right. And so when he asked me questions, then he was watching through those seminars and he would pause them and he'd say, wait, what did he just say? And he'd say, what do you think about that? And then he would ask

me questions and then we'd open the Bible. And as soon as I saw, wow, this is so crazy that I've believed this. It was not in the Bible all this time. It was a verse that was twisted, made to say whatever he wanted to say, and then it was told as the word from God. So that was what the teachings consisted of. So it was like every 10 to 30 seconds we would pause and there would be an issue. And that was a lot. So basically once I saw that those teachings were not right,

the Lord used him and he used also just me digging into the word and reading it rightly, like not just pulling a verse out here and there, too set me free from that, from that legalism, out here and there, too, set me free from that legalism, from the superstition that was hanging over my head, because he would say, you could have an issue in your life, and it could be something so tiny or so major, from a health issue down to some conflict in relationship, and maybe even in a business deal, right? Like if there's somebody who moved into your rental and they have alcohol, well then maybe the reason that you're having health issues is because somebody had alcohol in your rental, so you need to get rid of that.

It's very superstitious, very fear-based religion. And as soon as I started to see, wow, this is just so deep and it's so harmful. The Lord allowed all of those things kind of just to fall off because it was not, once I saw it's not in the Bible, well, I'm not going to conform my life to it because I want to live by truth and that's not true. And so that's what my last book was on, Becoming Free Indeed, just broke down those teachings. It's more of a theological memoir. And I wanted to expose those teachings because I saw them as super harmful.

And my family, a lot of them have left certain aspects of the teachings and some of them would still follow hardcore, all of that. And so, I think that we tried to have very loving conversations with family members and just share what we've seen and heard. And at the end of the day, that's what you can do. And then you just leave the rest to the Lord to work in His time. Are you able to kind of leave that? I mean, is it a cult? Do you use the term cult? It sounds kind of cultish to me. It's very cult-like in nature because there are so many elements of it where I've had friends whose families have abandoned them if they did not stay in the setting. And there have been, it's been

difficult to come out of it. And for sure, every day you have all these things that come back to your mind that you have to actually process because there's false guilt that will come up and you realize like you have to go back to what is true. And that's been my journey has been disentangling truth from me or not. I don't like to use the term deconstruction because I think it kind of gets like, you know, like tearing it down, tearing your faith down to the studs, never to build it up again, that type of vibe. But with disentangling, it's taking out the truth

from the error, taking the time that's necessary to break it down. And that takes, it's difficult. It's very hard, it's painful, but it's a necessary process. And so that's what the journey that I've been on. And the more that I see in Scripture who God actually is, the more that it makes me love Him and want to know Him as a loving Heavenly Father, not as a domineering God who's just waiting to smite me at every turn.

The leaders of the organization or even, say, friends and family that are still in it, like, is it... Did they come after you? Or are you attacked or anything? Like, is it hard to leave? Like, is it- Yeah, it was difficult to leave and to speak up. I think that was something that kind of propelled me to write this book, People Pleaser, as well,

that I just wrote. A lot of that was because I was the last person who wanted to say anything. I'm more of a quiet personality of like, just wanting to keep everybody happy with me all the time. And that is something that was really difficult for me because once I saw that all of this, there was a lot of heartache and there was a lot of pain that was being caused by this teaching. No one else was speaking up against it at that time. And I felt like if I didn't say something, it would be the most unloving thing to do,

especially being put in a public position from the age of 10. And I promoted these teachings as a teen and a young adult. And so I wanted to come back and correct what I saw as very harmful error that a lot of friends and family and people in that setting. And even I think a lot of churches had adapted a lot of this. They pulled it into their church and like started to teach elements of it.

And so I saw it as a widespread issue. And it was something that I think once I said something, there were attacks from people in that setting, and they were not happy with me for speaking out, because part of that is I think in that setting, you are supposed to remain silent. You're not supposed to speak up, and especially women, you're supposed to be quiet and not to say as much. So I think that it was really a difficult time to walk through. It was emotionally taxing and draining.

And at the same time, it was freeing because I realized once I was willing to speak up against that and find my voice, then it gave me help to know, okay, I've moved past this people pleasing in my life and not feeling like I don't wanna say anything to keep people happy with me. Well, that can be fine. Like you want people to like you generally, it's not a bad thing, right? But whenever it's gonna prohibit you

from speaking up for the vulnerable, speaking up against a bully, like that's an issue. And so that's where I started seeing like, okay, you can work past this. You can break free of that people pleasing and it is worth it. That's good. You have two or three books, I forget.

Well, I have quite a few, but- Oh, sorry about that. Some kids books, no, you're all good. So I do have, even my close friends, even the other day, one of my friends was like, how many books do you have? I was like, well, yeah, one of them I wrote before I was out of the teachings promoting the teachings, New York Times bestseller that I don't promote now. So it was interesting, but coming back and correcting that I have some good books that

I would recommend a few. So Becoming Free Indeed is one that I recommend. And also this new book, People Pleaser, because those things are so close to home, that's where my heart and my passion is, is to speak on that. And then we have a little fun kids book too, because we have kids, two girls, six and four, another one on the way. And so we wrote a little book on the fruit of the spirit. It's called, You Can Shine So Bright. So those are the ones that I recommend right now. Are you guys going to go for 19 kids?

Like your parents? You never know. No, I'm kidding. No way. No, I think that we are set. I say that after this pregnancy, I think this might be the caboose. We'll see.

Number three. Three or four max probably, but I think three feels right right now. But maybe that's just because I'm seven and a half months pregnant. I'm always trying to find ways to improve my health. And the work that I do, I have to be healthy. I need to have energy and mental clarity, which is why I've been taking AG1 consistently now for over two years. So AG1 is a research-backed

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Becoming free indeed, yeah. Becoming free indeed. And that really told your story of getting out of this cult-like community. Yes. Did you receive, did you have any, I don't know, death threats or pretty, were you ever scared of people coming after you or anything like that? I didn't have death threats, but I had a lot of very unkind things that were said.

And even by some friends that were well-meaning, I think because they saw these teachings. This is part of the difficulty is because they would see these teachings as being the guarantee for success. So if you follow the rules to a T, then you are going to have your kids turn out perfectly. You are going to shine the light of Christ to the world. And the thing that was told, even in a seminar that Bill Gothard taught, was it would have been better for you to not hear those teachings than to hear them and to depart from them.

So they would view someone like maybe even yourself, right, if you did not hear those teachings than to hear them and to depart from them. So they would view someone like maybe even yourself, right? If you did not grow up in Bill Gothered's teaching and you were doing something a little different, maybe there's more grace for you because you didn't know these teachings were sent from God. But if you know that they are and then you leave it, some people thought I was like falling away from the faith, marrying a heretic because he did not believe in the teachings, things like that, right? Where you can feel so ostracized being in that place because you are not continuing in what you already heard. So it quickly becomes a focus on them of feeling like they're going to save

you from disaster because it's known disaster if you don't abide by these teachings. And so I think that there were a lot of well-meaning people who spoke up trying to think like, okay, we're going to help her not say this. And at the end of the day, I can see how they would believe that. Because when I was in the teachings and any of my friends left, I was very concerned for them. I remember crying when one of my friends said she was going to wear pants because I was like, Oh no, she's going to bring the wrath of God upon her. And I was afraid for her, you know?

And I think looking back, seeing that in myself, it actually gives me more compassion and pity for those who are still in it because they are, many of them who are true believers and in that setting, they want to please God. And if that's how they're told that they're pleasing the Lord, it's like that necessity they feel to speak up,

it makes sense because they feel like it's a warning. They want what's best for you. And leaving those teachings is not what they see as best for you. Is Bill Gothard, is he still alive? I don't even know. He is, yes. He's still alive.

The IVLP and ATI, which is Advanced Training Institute, all of that, it was taken over by some other leadership and they still do conferences and all of that. They're not as big as they were back in the day, filling up stadiums and all, but now it's a smaller number, probably two to 3000, I'd say, people who still go to the conferences every year. Wait, fill it up stadiums? So this is not just some... It was a big movement.

No. So Bill Gothard would fill up massive stadiums in the 60s, 70s, 80s. That's like when it started was in the 60s and 70s. But he would fill up huge, huge stadiums in Knoxville. And it was wild. Families from all over would go. The kids, everybody would pretty much dress in navy and white. So it looked a little cult-like, you know, showing up in their matching uniforms. And it was interesting. Didn't Bill Gothard write some worship music that's pretty popular? I feel like I've never

seen his name on, or no. No. Who am I thinking of? some worship music that's pretty popular? I feel like I've never seen his name on, or no. No, probably not. So, he was anti-drums. So, he was all about only hymns and classical music, and they had to be without drums. And primarily, I mean, orchestra style music is all that they were allowed to have. So, yeah. So, modern, has he written some modern hymns or no? Maybe I'm thinking of somebody else. No. Nothing like that. Okay. Okay. Somebody else, probably. Yeah. Well, okay. So yeah, so modern, has he written some modern hymns or no? Maybe I'm thinking of somebody else. Nothing like that. Somebody else probably.

Yeah. Well, okay, what about, I mean, a lot of this is public, so I assume you can talk about it, but there's been a lot of controversy surrounding, or has there been surrounding Bill Gothard, but also your family, it's been in the news and stuff. Yes, for sure. Yeah, there's been a lot.

I hate always believing whatever you hear, so tell us what are the legit things that have happened and how have you responded to some of that? Yeah, there's been a lot that's happened. Bill Gothard was taken out of that position that he was in because there were accusations from 30 plus women who accused him of misconduct, sexual misconduct. So it was really crazy to see. I think when I was in that place, I was like, oh, wow, that's so sad. But I still wasn't sure what to think about it when I was in that setting.

But exiting it and then I was like, oh, this makes sense. This is not. It just really made my heart break for the victims and everyone involved. And then my family has not been without scandal either. And so it's been a difficult thing to see those who will claim to speak for God and they claim to have all these answers, but then they're living a double life. It's very hard to see that. But it really makes you think, like, okay, I want to put my trust not in a system or in person because that just never is healthy. We have to trust in God and to keep our focus on Him and realize, like, okay, I just want to be obedient. I want to walk in a way that is pleasing to God and to not be so wrapped up in, you know, like even following that person.

Because I think that whenever Bill Gawthard went down and I was in that setting, it rocked my world a little bit. And I think I saw later kind of why, like a lot of the things that were promoted there. Even for young people, it was really sad to see because he would have a make single service commitments to not get married. When they were working at his headquarters in Chicago area, they would not be allowed to be in a relationship and all those things, but he would only choose the prettiest girls and the most handsome guys to come and work for

him. And we would say, oh yeah, those are just gothward girls because they're the pretty ones, the long, long hair or like the girls from Mexico who are like models, you know, would come work for him. And it was a pattern that I didn't realize was so unhealthy and unwise and very wrong. In that setting, we would just think, wow, they're like the chosen ones, they're the special ones. And now looking back, it's heartbreaking to see what's happened.

It's hard. I mean, it's so sad that that's not uncommon. I didn't even know those. I just knew that there were some things said about him. I didn't know the specifics, but even before you told me, I was like, it's probably sexual abuse. Yes, yeah, for sure. It's just so common with cult-like leaders, which is so, so sad.

If I can add, are you close with your family and your parents still? Is that, or? I'm close with most of my family. They're, you know, there are some different, difficult, complicated relationships with a few of them. But I would say the majority of them were very close. And even though we don't see eye to eye

with every single one of my siblings, we have a really good relationship with my family for the most part. And so there are a couple members of the family who, you know, it's just not as easy. And that does come down to what we have seen in scripture is not accurate and a lot of those things. So it's been a process, but I think that at the end of the day, we want to live our lives how we see the Lord would lead us and not to be afraid of even disapproval and things like that, because I think that we have to honor the Lord and even play a long game with that. If people think we're not walking with the Lord, they're waiting for our lives to fall apart because we have left some of these

teachings that they would see long term that we can walk with the Lord and not abide by all the legalism. All right. Tell us about Being a People Pleaser. That's the title of your most recent book, People Pleaser. Well, actually, let's dig deep here. What are the characteristics of people who are, let's just say, an unhealthy people pleaser? Like you said, it's not wrong to please somebody or even that desire in and of itself may not be bad, but there's clearly unhealthy, even toxic forms that that could take. Can you unpack, help us understand what those unhealthy patterns are?

Yeah, I started to see so many unhealthy patterns in my own life. And a lot of that was before I wrote Becoming Free Indeed, because it was a challenge for me to process how I had been in a place where I felt like a lot, most people were like, okay, yeah, Ginger's doing what's right or whatever. But then the second I knew, the second I spoke up, it would bring disapproval. And I would have people on my bad side.

And that kept me kind of reeling and kept me struggling with that thought for quite some time. And so that's why I didn't write the book right away. Anyhow, so in that setting, I would want to remain silent. And even if there was a situation that came up, I realized even in parenting that can happen a lot where you feel uncomfortable with somebody around your child or you're at a park

and somebody is getting a little too close to your kid, or they're making you uncomfortable. And it's like, well, I need to exit this situation, but this stranger, I'm afraid what they're going to think of me. Well, that happened. A lot of those scenarios would happen on a daily basis. And I was realizing, man, I'm so afraid of what they think of me. And I need to stop thinking that way.

I need to be willing to speak up when I'm supposed to speak up. And so that can be a challenge for somebody who wants to keep everyone on their good side, even strangers. And so there's also another side that I struggled with, which was isolation. So even in the church setting, I went to a small church plant that my husband was helping out with on the border of Mexico and Texas. We lived there for two and a half years right after I got married

and moved down there and joined him. And being in that setting, I think I put pressure on myself to be a certain way as a pastor's wife to want to keep everything perfect and feel like I had to make them think that, you know, I never had problems or I never went through struggles. And it was very isolating. It was selfish because I was not allowing other people to truly get to know me. I would keep everyone kind of a surface level friendship. And that was something that I didn't notice until I left there.

When one of the ladies at the church, when we were moving, she said, she was like, I feel like Ginger, we just didn't, you didn't let us into your lives fully. Like I didn't truly get to know who you were. And that's something I'm sad about. And it actually like really crushed me because I thought, wow, I was,

I think even part of it can be, initially it was from the public eye stuff. I was more guarded and protected. I'm not as trusting of a lot of people because I just don't know what their intentions are of wanting to be my friend. And yet I realized within the body of Christ, there also can be, you can have certain pressures

that you put on yourself as a Christian thinking, okay, if I show my faults, my failures, then I'm going to look like less of a Christian. And I don't want to show anybody that I'm going through a difficult season and I'm struggling or I need prayer. And I think that that was something that was hard for me. So I went to isolation and I wanted to hide even the struggles where I wish I would have asked for prayer, I wish I would have let some people

into my life because I was walking through challenges, even coming out of the teaching of Bill Goffard in that season, I had come out of some of it, but I was processing a lot and I needed prayer and I needed help. And I was afraid to speak up and ask for that because I thought they're going to think less of me. And there was a lot of pride and also just fear of rejection. And I thought, well, you know, this is just not good. And even with my husband, there was another aspect

where Bill Gothard would have taught, if you are a wife, then you need to keep your husband happy with you all the time. So you need to make sure you keep the house perfectly clean. You are joyfully available to him. You have a cheerful smile when he walks in the door, even if you're having a rough day.

Don't talk to him about that right away. And you're just like, keep it all happy, happy, happy. And I think that I really believed that. And I thought that arguments equaled rejection. And it wasn't until Jeremy really, he started to notice this pattern in my life of just anytime that he would ask me a question about literally anything, I would say, well, what do you think?

Like he would say, oh, where do you want to go to dinner? I'd be like, wherever you want to go is fine, babe. And then he would say, well, okay. There was like, you know, too many days where our church, we were in a small church, and it was like you're printing the bulletins. I play piano, so here and there would fill in for the pianist if her kid was a mess. And we would be there so many days in the week setting up the prayer meeting, setting up a Friday night prayer meeting for others.

It was just so many things happening. And I was afraid to even voice, like I feel like we need Fridays off because we're not getting enough time together. But I didn't want to say that because then I'm gonna be this ungrateful wife and maybe Jeremy's not gonna be happy with me and maybe he'll leave me.

Like all these fears that I was facing and people pleasing, he told me, he said, I don't want you to be this clone of me. I don't want you to feel like you can't talk to me about these things because it had been so ingrained in me from those teachings, but then also from temperament of just wanting to make him happy. But it was killing me on the inside. And so I wasn't willing to speak up when I needed to and just say, hey, can we have this

Friday night off? Like let's not do a second prayer meeting for the church. If they want to get together and pray, these five people, they can, but we don't need to be there. And that was something that once I was able to get, like communicate, Jeremy kept pulling it out. He said, I want to hear who you are. Tell me what you think.

Are we doing too much? Is, you know, how are you doing? And once I was able to open up and break through that barrier of not just keeping myself, even before Jeremy as this perfect person, then I was able to break free of that bondage of people pleasing and feel like, OK, now I can actually talk about these things that are bothering me.

And if Jeremy has a different opinion, even if he doesn't agree with me on something, which never really happened because he was always so kind, but even if he didn't, it's not rejection. We can have differences and that's part of community is you need to be able to talk about the hard things. That was something that I just wasn't able to do early on. Realizing those patterns,

then I saw friends in the church who were serial servers, I would call them, because they just couldn't stop saying yes to every single thing that came up. And they were like, oh, there's a potluck. Okay, I'm going to bring all the dishes and I'm going to clean and I'm going to take my kids to this. I'm going to help sort the music. But their kids, their families were falling apart. And so you start to realize we have people pleasing tendencies, whether it's isolation, if it's over serving and over being involved,

that's also an imbalance. But the heart motivation is the issue ultimately, because we cannot say, okay, if you're not serving this much, you're doing what's wrong. There is a heart motivation of the self-protection of being afraid of what people think about you. And that was what was driving, I think, even my people-pleasing was thinking, okay, I've got to try to become a clone of everyone around me. What do they expect of me? And then I'm going to do exactly that. That would keep everyone happy. And it was a miserable way to live.

Wow. You mentioned it in passing, but just to come back to it, because I was going to ask, did you develop this way because of your environment or was it like your temperament, your personality? It sounds like it's a bit of both. A bit of both, for sure. So I think certain elements, like within marriage and all of that, that was a lot of the teachings I was raised under. But then temperamentally, I am the one who, from the age of like probably five, I just wanted to keep everybody happy. So I was temperamentally not one to get into trouble, not to get into fights. I just didn't want the disapproval of others.

And I think that some of us are geared that way. And like I said, it's not necessarily a bad thing to want to have people like us because we were designed for community. God designed us for community. It's like a beautiful gift. So when we can have friendships, when we can have that, we don't want people's disapproval. If that is something that's happening every day, we're going to be beat down and we're not going to feel like we can function.

And so it is a gift. I think that when it comes to the motivation, we have to stop thinking, what can I get from this person? How can they serve me? What can I get from this person? How can they serve me? What can I get out of you? And how can I be most comfortable? And how can I get everybody to like me because I'm afraid of their disapproval? Well, that is the motivation.

We have to stop thinking that. We have to start thinking, how can I love and serve others? Even if that's by being vulnerable and talking to them about a problem, asking for prayer, or if it's by being a listening ear and being a true friend. There are lots of those things that I think we can quickly forget. And even in that idea of people-pleasing where it's like, you know, like we can do things for other people thinking that it's the only way to survive, you know? Like even in survival mode, like some people go into survival mode because it's like that's

their only way of escape. So they're going to people please so they get out of a dangerous situation or whatever. So there are different layers to this, but I think that ultimately when it comes down to my people pleasing and each people pleaser will have to look at it and say, okay, where am I before God? Why am I doing this? And it's ultimately gonna be a question

that you have to answer yourself because it affects each one of us differently. And that's part of, even in the book that I wrote, I wanted it to be helpful. So I put an assessment in the inside that way they could have a way to break down on what people pleasing, tendencies they see in their life.

And then at the end of each chapter, there are also questions because as a busy mom, I have trouble slowing down and actually actually taking in what I'm reading or learning. And so I wanted to have little touch points at the end of each chapter, something that you can just hold on to. Ask yourself a couple questions, two questions at the end, and then just say, okay, you can think about it in the day.

Like, okay, what has been motivating me to do what I'm doing? And who am I doing this for? Or how can I change? How can I speak up for the vulnerable? And has there been a time where I've remained silent when I should have spoken? And so things like that where you can just work through and be very honest with yourself,

I think that was hard for me to like get to that place where I was willing to say, wow, I need help. And I don't wanna live like this. This is a miserable way to live. And I want that for other people pleasers as well. I'm curious, in your anecdotal experience, I can say from my anecdotal experience, this unhealthy people pleasing is not uncommon among especially like Christian wives who are in like a really conservative context. Has that been? So both my wife and I come out of a very conservative

Christian context and my wife's, her temperament doesn't have any people pleasing problems. But talking to other, you know, her friends and other people, it's just that really pressure to be the perfect wife, make sure you're pleasing your husband. Yes. And even like, you know, if he falls into porn, it's your fault, you know, or dressing a certain way and keeping the house. And I mean, that just was in the air. Has that been your experience too?

Yeah, for sure. I think it is a broader church problem where we feel like, okay, it has been taught. And I think a lot of those things, like I said, were even adapted from someone like Bill Gothard, and we didn't even realize it. I think the more that I've been able to talk through it, I've had so many people who know nothing of Bill Gothard's name, but they were raised in that same setting of the women having to keep the men happy all the time, and it's never their fault.

That is something where Jeremy actually really, he told me early on, he was like, this is a problem because he saw families in Bill Gotht's setting where the men were just not loving their wives and they were not loving and serving them as Christ would have them. And they were being so disobedient to scripture, even in that. And he was like, wow, this is crazy. It is very domineering and it's wrong.

It's beating down the women. It's not giving them even a voice. And I think that that pressure that women were putting on themselves to keep everything up, it was never the man's fault for anything that he did. It was always like, well, yes, you wore leggings or you don't keep yourself as you should. You should always be wearing makeup. You should always be happy. You should always be making food for him and all these things. There was a lack of the man's responsibility in that. And I think that the people pleasing of women, you saw it come out where they're like, okay, I got to keep everyone happy.

My husband, my kids, and some of them would just crack under that. They couldn't handle it. And it was too much to bear because they're not meant to bear that. That's not their weight and responsibility that they're supposed to carry. And so, yes, I think we see it in the broader Christian world where it's this idea of it's all on you. And I think that that kind of pressure

is not healthy for anyone. And so whenever I looked at it too, I could see it as Bill Gothert's teaching, but I think that it's kind of been sprinkled across the more conservative Christian thought process, you know, as to what's required for a woman. Pete What do you want to say to women right now listening who are kind of like, I feel like I'm kind of in that situation? I mean, luckily you've got an extremely understanding husband, it sounds like. But some women might be like, gosh, if I brought that up to my husband, it may not go that well.

Yeah. And I would say it's going to be different for each setting because some may, if they're in a very strict setting, they will have to use wisdom and how they bring things up. But ultimately, I would say like have that conversation with your husband and if you can. And if you can't, bring in somebody else from your church or even outside of your church if your church is like super in that setting and talk to them about it. Because I think that if there is an imbalance that's so major and the husband's not being sensitive to his wife, he's not listening to her at all, there have been some settings where you felt like, oh man, he's treating her like a child.

This is just imbalance. So I think we see that and it's not okay. That is not how God wants you to be treated. And I think that you can put so much guilt on yourself, which is not right. And so in scripture, God always cares for women. You see even the provision for them in bad relationships for them to get out of that. And I think that that is something that it's been taught in a wrong way to where women feel like they are not able to speak up.

They're so unworthy, they're not smart, and they have to just, you know, there's no escape for them if their husband is not loving them well and not being a Christ-like husband, an example to them in any way. And I think that that's something that is tragic and it's painful to hear stories of that. So if you're in that setting, I would just recommend like just talk to someone, you know, talk to your husband if you can, if he's willing to listen to you and then bring someone else into that. So hard. Yeah. Gosh, I can't. Yeah. I'm just thinking of not specific names or anything, just kinds of relational dynamics.

The man's very type A and domineering and if the wife is more passive and if you've established a history too, say you've been married 20 years. I know some personalities, like if all of a sudden after 20 years, you finally have the courage to kind of bring it up, some personalities might react back. Like, you know, well, almost shame them for like, well, why did you wait until now? Like there's no good you could have done to, you know, bring up the situation. Gosh, it's so hard. But I feel like, I don't know, better to roll a dice and say something

than keep it bottled. That's just not an option, right? I mean, at some point. Yeah. And I think that that's the difficulty, especially if you're more of a temperament where you're just wanting to... You don't want to make him upset. You want to keep him happy, and you're afraid that he's going to leave you. I think that as a people pleaser, we have to be willing to speak up and we have to be willing to realize even what's healthy for our kids and what example we want them to be. And I have two little girls and I want them to see that I am willing to stand up against a bully.

I'm willing to speak up and to fight for them when they, you know, if there's like some uncomfortable school situation. We've had that. And my husband's something like, oh, we need to speak up. Like, she feels uncomfortable with maybe a certain temperament in this classroom. So let's like make sure that she feels safe

and she feels heard at school. And so all those things that come up where you will have to wrestle through, it makes it all worth it when you see, even through your kid's eyes, where what do you want, who do you want to be for them? And I think that that's like another layer is not thinking that people pleasing only affects you, because it can affect so somebody more around you.

Yeah. That's where I would say I struggled a lot more with people pleasing growing up. People are gonna laugh. People are like, what? You? I'm like, no, guys can't do. Oh, they do.

Yes. You know, I can be honest and speak my mind and stuff, but there's a part of me that, yeah, I actually don't like confrontation and stuff. I don't like it. But over the years, it's like, I think, well, you mentioned having kids. I think having kids where I've, over the years, I've had to jump in and say, hey, my kid is not being treated right or having to jump in and do that is, that's really helped.

It's one thing for people to like, not like me or whatever, but when they're mistreating, one of my kids is like, oh yeah, that's not gonna happen. That's not gonna happen for sure. So all that to say, I was trying to like say, I know that feeling in the chest you get when you know you need to speak up, you have to say something to this person, that person,

call it out, and that well of anxiety just comes up into your throat almost, and you're just like, and you just need to, yes. Does it get better and easier? Is it just like, the more you do it, the more you gain confidence and that crippling feeling becomes less so?

Is that- I would say it depends on the situation, but I think also whenever I've been able to work past that intense anxiety and the feeling of like that sick feeling in your stomach, I think sometimes you will just get that. Like there are so many scenarios that come up where you're gonna have a challenge,

but the more that we are exercising, being willing to speak up when we should, I think that's when I have seen it's made it easier for me the next time to remember, okay, I'm not, I remember that feeling. That's gonna come up probably, but then what is the result? And that's something that we have to remember. What, that's gonna come up probably, but then what is the result? And that's something that we have to remember.

What did that produce? So when I spoke up for my kid who, she felt like she was, somebody was being super unkind to her in class, like one of the kids. Well, okay. Well, when I spoke up against that, then it helped her. And then she had a much better experience in school.

Or it's like when I spoke up in another scenario, then that actually helped someone. And so looking at the end goal, looking at what it produced from my own confidence, then yes, next time it will be a little bit easier because you can see what it produces. And if I would have remained silent, what would have happened? And I think that that's what we have to do.

We have to count the cost of what we're doing, what we're saying, why we're speaking up, and then look at the end result. Because if we don't, then we will just be quiet because no one wants to feel uncomfortable. Totally, totally. What are some other, just in our last couple minutes, things we haven't touched on in terms of, like,

if somebody is wrestling with just unhealthy people pleasing, some other things that you'd recommend for them to do? Yeah, I think that if that's been a huge struggle in your life, like maybe you're a young mom, and this is something for me that I feel like probably a lot of women relate to this side of like the house, you know, wanting the house to be clean before anybody pops in. And one of my dearest friends now, she was a new friend of mine and she had a little

one. She's like, Hey, can I start by your house? And I said, I was thinking, Oh, I don't know if I should invite her over today because my house is not perfectly clean. Well, I said, yeah, that she could pop in because she was a couple of minutes down the road. And she came over and our little one climbed under my table and started eating the dried Cheerios off my floor.

And I was like, oh, no, this is terrible. So I was mortified. I mean, I was probably like, my face was so red and I just ran and grabbed my broom. I was like, I'm so sorry. I am so embarrassed because my house was a mess. And she was so sweet. She scooped her little one up and I was like,

here, I'll get her some actual good Cheerios. Gave those to her, swept the floor, any help. She was so kind and that actually like was a breakthrough in our friendship where before when I had them over, I had dinner prepared, I had a candle on, I had the floral perfect. And it was like, that was the first time she saw me without makeup on, like a mess, my house was a mess,

and I was, I'm not, I hate a messy house. Let me just say that, when the house is clean, no one's here. Whenever it's a mess, everybody wants to come over. So, but realizing as a people pleaser, I almost traded down and like didn't let her come over. And another same thing happened with a college student one day. She went, she really desperately needed help that day right then. And she was right across the street. So I was like, oh yeah, come over.

And she was stepping on cars, hot wheels, walking into my house. She brought me a coffee and I felt bad. I was like, this is not what you're supposed to do. And anyhow, letting her into that part that where it's uncomfortable, but then at the same time, she didn't even care. She was just was going through a hard day,

needed somebody to sit and talk with her for two and a half hours. And it just provided that friendship. And so even with my friend with the Cheerios, to this day, she's the one who now comes over and we tackle projects together. So my house is a wreck. I have a closet full of junk that I need cleaned out. She comes over for an hour.

We'll tackle it and then I'll go to her house and we'll go through all the clutter. And we don't care anymore. It's like we can, and we'll go through all the clutter and we don't care anymore It's like we can and we've actually developed a deep friendship where we can talk about anything pray for each other in hard times and that's something that has actually Really encouraged me because I can see as a people pleaser how it's so easy to trade down It's so easy just to isolate yourself or to go to over serving where you're not letting anybody into your life that way either, cause you're doing all the things. Everybody's going to think you're great.

Well, slow down a little bit and say, what's the motivation? Why am I doing this? Why am I saying yes? Why am I saying no? And be honest with yourself, be honest with the Lord and ask him for help cause he will give you help. And I think that that's, it's encouraging to see that you can

break free from these patterns of people pleasing. And when it comes back up, just remind yourself, what is the end goal? And what is this going to produce if I say yes or if I say no? Ginger, this has been so fun talking to you. And I hope people check out your book, People Pleaser, Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations by Ginger Dugger. How do you pronounce your last name? So Volo. If you say it properly, Volo, like that's how the Italians would say it,

but we say Volo. Volo. How does your husband say it? Volo? He says Volo, but you know, grandpa would probably be upset at us. We probably should say Volo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I will butcher it if I try. Thanks so much for being a guest on The Algenar. I really appreciate it. Thank you. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hi I'm Haven and as long as I can remember I have had different curiosities and thoughts and ideas that I like to explore usually with a girlfriend over a matcha latte. But then when I had kids, I just didn't have the same time that I did before

for the one-on-ones that I crave. So I started Haven the Podcast. It's a safe space for curiosity and conversation. And we talk about everything from relationships to parenting to friendships friendships to even your view of yourself and we don't have answers or solutions but I think the power is actually in the questions so I'd love for you to join me Haven the podcast. Hey so I'm launching a new season on the podcast The Doctor and the Nurse. World renowned brain coach Dr. Daniel Aiman joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind

and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors and all high performers and in all types of different fields of how they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how they put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state and just dominate all these different areas of high performance. So on this season, my good friend, Dr. Daniel Layman will break down what is actually going

on in the brain in these different areas and I will give actionable tools to be able to use and apply in your life. So buckle up, the doctor and the nurse on The David Nurse Show, coming at ya.