Theology in the Raw - Lecrae on Deconstruction, Reconstruction, and Mental Health Struggles

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

To watch my Extra Innings segment with Lecrae, join my Patreon community. You'll also get bonus episodes, Zoom meetups, Q&A's and more! Lecrae Moore is an American hip-hop artist, author, entrepreneur, and social activist. He is widely recognized as one of the most influential figures in Christian hip-hop (CHH). He has accumulated over a dozen Grammy nominations and is a multi-Grammy Award winner, alongside numerous GMA Dove Awards, Stellar Awards, and Soul Train Music Awards. In 2014, his landmark seventh album, Anomaly, debuted at No. 1 on the mainstream Billboard 200 and the Top Gospel Albums chart simultaneously—a historic first. This episode is a raw conversation with Lecrae—his journey with Christ, music, and the evangelical church—a journey with many twists and turns, as you’ll see. In the extra innings portion of this episode, Lecrae opens up about his current place in Christian church—is he conservative, liberal, right, left, evangelical, or whatever.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

There was this massive exodus of black people from evangelicalism. There was no term deconstruction that we understood, but it was happening to us. And we thought we were in this multicultural church where we were seeing. We thought we were following these leaders who had our best interest in mind. And then one of the most painful, I mean, you know, many people call it this a second civil rights era. We're hearing from the rafters people saying, get over it, get back to the gospel. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology around my guest today. Today is La Cray Moore, who is an American hip-hop artist, author, entrepreneur, and social

activists. He's widely recognized as one of the most influential figures in Christian hip-hop. In 2014, his landmark seventh album, Anomily, debuted at number one on the mainstream Billboard 200 and the top gospel albums chart simultaneously. This is a historic first. This episode is a rock. conversation with Lecrae, his journey with Christ, music, and the evangelical church. It might even be a little extra raw, if you will. His journey has many twists and turns, as you'll see.

In the extra innings portion of this episode, Lecrae opens up about his current place in the American evangelical church. Is he conservative? Is he liberal? Is he right? Is he left? Is he evangelical? Or what is he? He talks openly about how he sees his place in the spectrum of Christianity in America. If you want to listen to the extra in these portion of this episode, head over to Patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and become a member of the theology in the raw community. Without further ado, please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Lecrae.

Lecrae, welcome to Theology and Raw. I'm not going to fanboy too much because that'd be awkward, but let's just say it's an honor for you to be on the show. Vice versa, man. Vice versa. I'm extremely honored as well, man. Thank you. So almost everybody, I'm going to guess. Almost everybody's going to know who Lecrae is. Most people are going to know something about your music. But I'm guessing few people listening will know who Lecrae is, the person, the story, the journey.

So can you open that up for us a little bit? Tell me about your faith journey and how that intersected with your rise to, because, I mean, one of the top Christian artists of our generation. Well, thank you for that. Yeah, man, I guess, you know, most people know me is like when you, Christian rap, when you say that term, my name generally pops up. And then there's, you know, many trail-offs that can go from there, but just generically it's like, yeah, the Christian rapper. That was never, you know, when you hear that, you would imagine like, you know, just

church kid who just started rapping and did his thing. But honestly, that's the furthest thing from the truth. I grew up in a very, a very, you know, kind of free-thinking environment. my mom had me as a young girl, you know, fresh out of school. She got pregnant. Try to make the family thing work. She grew up in a really conservative church world, but really it hadn't taken root in her heart of her life. So it was a lot of rules and regulations.

So she just didn't want me to be raised in that kind of legalistic churchy environment. It was holiness church. and it was kind of like, she was like, no. We ended up moving to the West Coast. So I lived in Denver, Colorado. I lived in San Diego. So two places where it was a lot of free thinking, just a lot of like, hey, you know, just explore, experiment. And my mom was a hippie for all intensive purposes, you know.

So it was kind of like, you know, she had a little room where she smoked her weed. There was a Buddha statue in there, and she'd have her little parties. And so, you know, I wasn't pressured to, like, we didn't go to church unless it was like an occasion. But I think she felt some guilt because she was raised in church to, like, kind of weave me in there every so often. Now, my grandmother was very devout. And when I would stay with her in the summers, she had church on the patio. but it was the church culture was like inconsistent. So I didn't grow up going to church more than anything.

She was like this missionary who would like feed the homeless on a regular basis or we were in San Diego. So we take these trips to Tijuana. So a lot of that was my formation. It's like seeing people care for others and love others and not so much like this theological perspective. So by the time I was 17, I was kind of like just free-thinking kid who was just trying to figure out what life meant. And I was exploring. And Christianity was my last option because it was like, that's grandma's stuff.

I was like, it's simple. It's not. I read books. I was like into intellectualism. So I was like, ah, Christianity's child's play. And met a girl. in high school and she was a couple years ahead of me.

So when I got to college, she was the only person I knew. I got a full scholarship for theater arts. Got to the University of North Texas and she invites me to a Bible study. And I saw these kind of Christians who were off the beaten path. They were just not the conventional Christian.

So it peaked my interest. And I hung around them and ended up, you know, hearing the message of Jesus, which I really had never heard. clearly and became a Christian, a follower. And so that's kind of where the journey begins. Now, the organization that I was a part of was through Campus Crusade, but it was like the black college extension of it called Impact.

But then some of my campus leaders started getting into Dallas Theological Seminary. And so they started to bring a lot of that into my thought process. So anyway, long story short, the reason why a lot of evangelical Christians probably gravitated to me early on is because they were hearing me insert things I was learning from my DTS mentors into the music. And voila, here I am. I think I first came across your name early on in your journey. And it was through some of these high-level, more reformed leaders. the John Piper in particular. I don't even remember the context.

I just remember like, wait, there's a thing called Christian rap and there's this dude Lecrae that Piper is all into. And like, that was weird. I didn't picture Piper is like, I didn't connect him with Christian hip hop. Yeah, yeah. Or any, or music or, yeah, you know, it's just kind of like, oh, wow, that's interesting. And then it seems like, again,

And me kind of looking off from a distance, I'm like, man, this guy's kind of a golden boy of these conservative reform white preachers. And I was like, that's just interesting, you know? And then seeing some of your lyrics like, golly, these are ideologically sophisticated and powerful. This guy's like a deep thinker. And even at that time, I was going through my own, like, you know, I listened to mainly like Christian rock at that time or just in rock. And Christian rock, it was at that season where I'm like, this sounds good. I like the sound, man, is good, but just the lyrics just seems a little flat and not

in depth. And I was like, this Christian hip pop thing seems deeper and more authentic. Anyway, so what was that season like for me? Am I even captured? I'm way from a distance. But tell us about that season when you became kind of pretty popular in that

Christian evangelical scene. Well, what began to happen was I always gravitated toward intellectualism, right? Like, I love philosophy. I loved the deeper aspects of thought. And so I came into the faith as a skeptic and, you know, going to some of these mom and pop churches where it was a lot of emotionalism. It was just a lot of, you know, just shouting at the devil. I was like,

ah, something's not there. And then we had this, uh, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this game night and the black organization met with the white college organization. And this this white guy named John O, he gave me this book by this guy, J.I. Packer. And I was like, what is this? You know, it was, it was like, heady and intellectual. And it was these thoughts I had never considered. And then I think, you know, I was, I went back to him and I was like, bro, what else you got? He was like, you heard of John Piper? And I was like, nah, who's that? You know, he was like, here, take this John Piper book. So then I'm reading that. And, you know, I think it was just I hadn't been exposed to anyone who was thinking philosophically about Christianity. It just so happened. The only people that I got access to were the reformed guys, right?

So I didn't know about the intellectual Pentecostals. I didn't know about the intellectual. Coptics. I didn't know about the intellectual Catholics or Anglicans. I just, all I had access to was these intellectual reform guys. And so I think that's what started. It just piqued my like, okay, now this is a Christianity that I can gravitate toward because it's like stimulating my mind. And so I just became a fan. And then I want to say like a, there was a conference that John Piper had. I think it was the, what is it called? Desiring God conference? Desiring God conference. That's what it was.

And so, you know, we're a bunch of, me and kind of my crew, a bunch of rag tag hip-hop guys, and we just shuffle our way over to a Desiring God conference. So we looked like a cheeseburger at Chick-fil-A, bro. It was like, we. We're sitting in that crowd and I just, I just knew they're like, what the heck is this? You know, like do rags and baggy jeans. And it was a phenomenon.

And I think one of the guys on staff with desiring God's kind of youthful organization, don't waste your life. Yeah. He took a liking to us. His name was Lucas. And Lucas is a little more radical. I think, you know, they were trying to keep him at bay. He was the punk rock guy over there. And Lucas was like, man, John, you got to work with these guys.

They do this Christian rap stuff. And then he just kind of started highlighting us and bringing us through. And it was just for us, it was like this kind of divine partnership. And we were like, what can we do together? You know, let's do stuff. And we wrote a song called Don't Waste Your Life. And then Lucas directed the video. And then I think that would be like a snowball effect.

It was like, you know, from that to like, oh, well, then there's Tim Keller. And then from Tim Keller, the new guy on the block in the reform communities at the time was Mark Driscoll. And Mark Driscoll was super punk rock. Unhealthy, but we didn't know that at the time. But just we were like, oh, I love this. Tattoos and screaming. And he didn't, you know, he was smart. but the preaching sound like a stand-up comedian.

And we were like, and he really embraced us. It's me specifically. And had us in Seattle. So it was like, oh, man, free thinking capital. And just I was like, ah, I love this, you know. And so I think that's where I just, I think I thought I was embraced. And I didn't know I was being used, if that makes sense. I thought I was like, oh, they love me.

But I think for some people, I won't say. safe for Piper, but definitely for Driscoll, I was a product to be wielded on his journey, on his assent to whatever he was chasing. So can you unpack that a bit? Like being used, like how, yeah. Yeah. What does that look like? I mean, both Piper and Driscoll were having you come be a part of what they're doing,

giving you, you know, a platform exposing to you to a lot more people. in what way was were you being used by Driscoll and not by Piper I don't I think Piper genuinely like had a care and a concern I mean as much as you can for a guy who grew up in the 60s and a segregated 60s

and just was like I want to see transformation happening in culture and society and you know here's some young black guys because my crew and I were just a bunch of young black guys a lot of us from the hood And it was like, man, they're carrying a theology that, you know, I endorse for some evangelicals in

that in reform culture, we were an echo chamber. We were kind of like the ghetto echo chamber. You know, it was kind of like, yes, you know, these are our evidence that what we're saying works. It works in the hood. We did this. Look at our poster children. You know, it's like you hold us up as mascots.

And I think for Driscoll, it was like, hey, there's a wave happening. Like his music is taken off. He's got these concerts with thousands of young people there. And Driscoll in many ways, I feel like was an opportunist and was like, man, I can continue wielding influence by having these guys around and by like latching on to them. And so you guys want to do a concert, do it in our church. You know, I was like, all right, cool. Thanks, just cool.

You know, I was like, hey, man, you want to write a book? Come write a book. You know, it was one point in time where he was encouraging me to become an X-20, was it, X-29 pastor. And I was like, I should never have been anybody's pastor, but he was like, no, I want you to go through our kids and join our team and do all the things. And it was like, man, no. And I'm glad it didn't happen. But I could, I knew I was being kind of tokenized when there was a leader that I greatly respected in our hip hop community that he just didn't know and he didn't understand.

And he had, you know, he had some moral failures and just goes like, man, throw him away. We'll find another guy. You know, I was like, man, that's so harsh. Like, this guy's meant the world to us. Like, we don't just throw him away. Um, so that's kind of when I started to see that thing unraveling a little bit and, and realizing, like, I think I'm, I didn't know I was being used collectively, but I, I knew by him there was some character flaws happening there.

Do you keep up with him or when's somebody talked to him? Is that ancient? Nah, I haven't, I haven't talked to him since he went to Arizona. Okay. So I don't know. I mean, I would, I'd actually love to have them on the podcast. I just want to know like, what the heck is going on. I would, I would pay money to make that happen.

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you sing about it in your song Deconstruction, which I would have to get to. I would have to get to that song. But then on July 4th, 2016, I don't remember, I think I just joined Twitter shortly, maybe a few years before, but on July 4th, 2016, you tweeted my family on July 4th, 1776, and you put a picture of what appears to be black slaves picking cotton, which I thought was what a most non-controversial, I don't know, I think I tweet tweeted. I was like, oh, cool. But then I kind of later saw it like, oh, man, that struck a nerve.

I would love to know what was going on in your life leading up to those kind of, like, just in that general season, because I think that was a transition in your Christian journey and evangelicalism. I don't want to project. I would love for you. I mean, if that's correct. So, you know, I was not aware of the kind of sociopolitical infrastructures that were behind evangelicalism.

I just, I just was naive and thought like, hey, we're all, we all love Jesus, kumbaya, and we hold hands and we sing songs together. And yeah, you know, and I, I mean, there was some self-righteousness in there because I was like, well, my theology is probably better than some of yours. but, you know, I was checking the boxes, man. I moved to the hood in North Memphis to do inner city ministry. I enrolled in seminary. I, you know, I checked all the boxes and felt like, you know, hey, I'm doing the things.

And I would say stuff like, hey, we need to do middial. work and they'd be like, amen, brother. And I'd be like, we need to care for the poor. Amen, brother. And then it was like, hey, an unarmed black guy got shot. We need to stand for justice. And they were like, hold on, brother. You know, and I was like, what do you mean? Hold on. I was like, maybe I said it wrong. And so then I said, maybe I didn't articulate how much this hurt. Because to me, seeing Trayvon or Michael Brown, those, it was like, I could relate. These are my cousins. I'm working in hood. These are guys I'm mentor. And they're not just transient beings who just, uh, you know, well, he shouldn't have made that decision. You know, it was like, it was almost like they,

they weren't made in the image of God. They were, they weren't Imago Day. They were just like, I don't know how to like, yeah, they were just, just bad decisions that needed to be dealt with. And, um, and I was like, what the heck is going on? here within evangelicalism. And people said, Lecrae, you need to stop being so political. And I was like, I'm so lost because I'm not political. At the time, I actually despised politics, because I didn't, one, I didn't really understand politics, but two, I just thought it was so divisive. And I remember in 2014, they, you know, Washington Post wrote an article about me like, is LaCray the one who's going to be the leader of evangelicalism? And I was like, huh?

Because evangelicalism was now like being linked to right wing politics. And I was like, and then I remember Christina Cleveland wrote an article that said I was the mascot for evangelicalism. And I was like, oh, wow. I don't want to be nobody's mascot. Yeah. I'm saying, wait, I'm a mascot. Wow. I think that's when I just, you know, you got to also got to remember my mother grew up fed and trained by the Black Panthers.

She lived through the civil rights era. She had me reading books by Malcolm X and Eldress Cleaver and so many of these things. And so it was kind of like, I know better. than to just be a piece of propaganda. And I will not be a piece of propaganda. So by the time we get to 2016, I think I'd had enough of people just misunderstanding me and trying to write me off. And I was like, you guys really don't understand that slavery was a thing. Like there are literally people's perspectives who was like, well, praise God for slavery because now the black community knows Jesus.

And it was like, it's like, wait a minute. This is real. So by you time you get in 2016, I'm like, oh, yeah. Huh. Well, why you're all celebrating July 4th? Let me just let you know. This is doing. And I could literally trace my family history so I know what my family was doing.

Right. And, of course, I was called divisive for that, that factual post. Did you get responses from some of the leaders you were hanging out with throughout your early journey? the Driscoe Piper Keller and I'm sure others that you were hanging with. Was that a breaking point or was it already kind of a slow break? So for, you know, those guys specifically know, and I have to give Tim Keller a lot of credit because he did reach out to me and really try to walk me through some stuff as best as he could. And even John Piper tweeted something that said you all should be grateful to Cray still in the faith the way you've treated him.

So I was like, all right, you know, fair. But, you know, God bless the dead, Voting Bacham and another debater named James White. I mean, they really, I really looked up to both of those guys and historically. And I mean, they let me have it. I mean, they just tore me into pieces like he's an ethnicnostic and he highlights his race above the gospel. And I was like, what are you even talking about? And then, you know, Vody, I got on a chat with him and he was like Michael Brown was a thug. And that's, you know, he got what he deserved.

And it was like, what? You know, it was just, I was so hurt and disappointed. and bewildered. And at the time, I didn't hear, I wasn't hearing from John Piper or hearing from Tim Keller's, but I didn't hear anything from anybody who was a white leader that I respected in that evangelical circle. And the silence was like deafening, you know, the silence was deafening. And then to hear James and Vody kind of rail against me was also hurtful.

And there were, of course, like all these. other pastors and preachers that I did know of who just decided to come out of the woodworks and have something negative to say about me. And I was like, what in the world? You know, it's not, you would have thought that I came out and said Jesus was not real or, you know what I mean? It was like just the level of attack. And then it just kept like just going and going and going and other, you know, people would jump on a bandwagon and every day. my feed was just full of so much vitriol and hate. And it just drove me to a really, really dark place, like a really dark place.

Just Christians every day. I mean, I still have some of the posts. I mean, a lot of racist tweets, a lot of racist Facebook messages. A lot of people who were saying I wasn't a Christian to begin with and just like, you know, it was really sad. And hindsight, I would have told myself to stop reading this junk. But I didn't know any better. Yeah.

Yeah, we learned a hard way. I think that was in the 20-teen social media was in a slow transition of being a helpful social tool, a way to get the word out, way to connect to people. But then the vitriol and anger and clickbait, I started kind of slowly creep in. And now it's clear. Like, the more spending time on social media, the more damage is going to do your soul. That's not even, you know, everybody knows that now. But yeah, sometimes like, like, like looking at the accident on the side of the road.

Sometimes at that time, you're just like, wait, what? You're saying that about me? Who else is saying that about me? Wait, you too? You start just, you can't stop, you know? So you, okay, so I want to keep unpacking this time period because I think it's fascinating and it's such an important part of your journey. You talk about it in your 22, 2022 song, Deconstruction and in Church Clothes 4 album.

in my opinion, man, this is just, I mean, what do I know? But your song deconstruction is one of the most raw, authentic, powerful, challenging, prophetic songs in Christian music up to that point. In my opinion, I mean, it, that's powerful. I appreciate it. Well, yeah. And I don't know. It resonates with me just because you're so deeply authentic in it. So I want to read through some of the lyrics.

I'd love for you to unpack it. Okay, this is going to be kind of a big block. So I deconstructed long before people knew what to call it. I know that's scary to some folks, but hold on. Let me pause it. Take you back to how it started. Maybe you relate. Maybe you ain't never met me, but you know my pain.

Focus on Jesus in Atlanta, fresh from Tennessee. Wasn't legalistic. Catch me with a cup of Hennessy. All right. It might need to look up what Hennessy is. I would speak at churches, hang with leaders and such. You know, Judah, Piper, Keller, Tony Evans' Clutch. I was so involved, never thought I could fall, y'all.

Right before the fall of 2015, I was all off. It involved the killing, or killing Michael Brown, had me feeling down, tweeted about it. Christians called me clown. I was losing ground, and Vody was a hero of mine, met him, met with him plenty of times. This time when he spoke, it cut me deeper than I realized, doubled down, spoke about my pain. I was met with blame. Shame on you. Cray. Stop crying. Get back to Jesus's name. I am but but I would encourage people to go listen to it because I would be read it. It's almost like a dishonor. It's good. You're good. I mean, you already talked about some of what was going on there.

What did we're, what did this do to your faith? in Jesus. So what a lot of people, you know, I said experience deconstruction long before people knew what to call it. There was this massive exodus of black people from evangelicalism during this time period. And a lot of people don't realize that. Like we were, there was no term deconstruction that we understood, but it was happening to us. Right. Like we were like, wait a minute. We admonished and looked up to you, you leaders, and you're not saying anything about what we're dealing with right now. You're not acknowledging us on Sunday, our struggle, our pain. And we thought we were in this multicultural church where we were seen. We thought we were following these leaders who had our best interest in mind. And then one of the most painful.

I mean, you know, many people call it this a second civil rights era. We're experiencing and it's silent. And outside of silence, we're hearing from the rafters, people saying, get over it, get back to the gospel. And we're like, what are you? What? So for me, because I'm at like, I'm at ground zero for all of this. I'm around these leaders. I'm around these people.

And, and I'm, I'm hearing these things before it's like trickling out amongst the crowd. And for me, I'm like, well, wait a minute. If the most articulate expression of our faith is coming from the mouths and minds of people who don't take my suffering seriously, what else have you gotten wrong? Maybe you got this whole thing wrong. make you know like I don't I don't at the time I don't know how to disassociate like their their lack of empathy and in their theological astuteness I don't know how to take them apart to me I'm like well what if you're wrong about at all and and and I start looking online for like okay who can help me unpack this and and you know the people who

had thoughts on this were the people who I had previously said are heretics or the people who I previously said are just theologically unsound. And I was like, well, wait a minute. If they're, well, you guys said they were wrong, but they're right about what I'm experiencing right now. So something's off here. And now I'm like, well, I don't know what to believe, you know, because I'm like, you guys said these people are wrong. So maybe they're right. But then some of these people are saying that Jesus isn't God, but I'm like, well, okay, well, now I don't know. Well, maybe. And then I'm like, there's people who don't embrace Jesus, but they embrace the suffering that I'm navigating right now.

And I needed that care. And it wasn't coming from the church. And so it just caused me to say, well, maybe this whole thing is a sham, you know? And now I'll be honest. I'll be honest. In this season, in this time, I'm in so much pain and going through so much, I wanted to be a sham because it gives me license to throw it all away. It gives me license to go back and get drunk and get high and just like, I don't have to care anymore. Because it's easy to not care.

I was like that. I remember those days, what a fun time. You know, so I wanted that as well. But I was suppressing that desire in trying to fight for truth. And I just think, I think the evil one had his way with me in that wrestle. You know, it's funny. I think when I first met you, you probably don't remember. It was a passing.

It was at a Gabe Lyons gathering in Santa Barbara, 100, 150 people. And I remember, like, my wife was there. I'm like, dude, look crazy. You're easy to spot. Six-four black man in a group of 150 white people in Santa Barbara. And I remember you introduce yourself as like, you know, everybody's like, I'm an author and I'm a leader and I lead in a megachurch. And not everybody was like that.

But everybody's kind of show you stand there. Everybody knows who you are. Like, yeah, my name's McCray. I'm a poet. That was it. It was like, you didn't need to list all. your albums were over. Anyway, I was like, all right, I just got. That was right around that time. I think it was like 2016 or something.

That's interesting that I didn't know. I didn't realize, well, I guess I knew your tweet and stuff. I didn't realize, yeah, all this is going on. Going further into the song, so next line, next several lines of deconstruction, cut me deep. I was losing sleep. God, ain't these your sheep? Why they hate me like they do. Maybe grace is really cheap. Maybe this is all a lie. They don't really love me. They just love it when I say the things they want to hear in public. They like following the God mean turning on black people. Is black evil?

Why did they hate and attack people? I'm vulnerable and cautious. I'm reading Baldwin. Tana Hassee got me thinking, now I'm going all in. James Baldwin, obviously, the 20th century civil rights activist. Tana Hossie Coates, journalists, written a lot on the intersection of race and culture. So you're reading Baldwin, Tata Hussi, these are some of the guys that you're referring to, right? People that were kind of like talking about things that you're seeing and experiencing.

Yes. What are some of the themes they were talking about? Oh, man. I mean, the cathartic writings of these individuals and just the, you know, I think my mother started me off reading the works of like a Malcolm X and Eldridge Cleaver. W.B. DeB. De Bois. But it was all theoretical because I lived in a bubble, right? I wasn't experiencing racism as they knew it. And then by the time I became a Christian, I was like, racism.

I mean, all we need is the gospel. Good. You know? Sexism, misogyny. All we need is the gospel. We're good. And then I got hit with it. And it was like, oh, oh, wait a minute. Time out, guys. This is real racism happening here.

What are we going to do about this? And then it was like a very respectable black pastor, very respectable. I won't say his name, but he sent me a message and he said, Lecrae, don't play with these white Christians. They will destroy you. And I was like, what? What? Much older than me. He'd been through some stuff. And I was like, what? I was going to stand up and fight. And then I was getting destroyed. Shows getting canceled. Finance is being affected. And I was like, oh my gosh, this power structure is killing me. And then Tana Hasi's like, yeah, the power structure is real. And you are a product of, you know, know, I mean, there's ways in 2020, 2020 or 2016 to rise above the systemic injustices in America

more than there were in 1960, but they still exist. Yeah. And James Baldwin is saying, hey, I had to move to Paris because this is craziness. And I'm like, yes. But then they both had thoughts about the church. and it was like it was it was a like pacifism and it just like load us to sleep and made us forget about the ills of racism in society and I was like dang is this true you know I mean Tana Hasi really goes there and he's just like there's no God you know and it's like man

you know like I don't know man I mean maybe he's got a point You know? Yeah. And it wasn't just me. It was my whole community. So it's not like I'm wrestling in isolation. Like I'm talking to all my friends about this. And they're like, I'm with you.

They're like, yeah, I think it's, I don't know, I had plenty of friends walk away from the faith completely. They're like, I'm dumb with this. This is a disaster. But the rest of us were just kind of grieving. And then, of course, you had some people like my wife and a few others who are like, I already Well, I

Either one or two scenarios happen for them. One, they were raised in a healthy church with You know, just a solid sense of who they were In their identity And this didn't rock them. It didn't shake their faith. Or two, they already knew this was an issue in society

And it didn't affect the way they felt about God. It just made them say, yeah, man is a mess. I was not either of them. So I had a lot of faith in humanity too much. Well, you're lyric, so the next several lines really talk about a place of darkness. I started slipping into darkness, feeling heartless. I don't know if God was real no more. Christians got me traumatized. I don't know who God is, drinking liquor from my therapy, smoking Mary Tree. Should I get a divorce? I don't know why she married. me what's the purpose what's the point ain't no ate no eve ain't no adam where the zanis let me at them I was floating in confusion until I dropped woke up in clinical depression

tell us I mean I you are not doing well I mean these are just glimpses of what I imagine is a multi-layered dark season of your life what was that like darkest didn't get any doesn't get any darker um I'm a lot like like like like like like like like like Nietzsche in this season, man. I'm like, if God's not real, nothing is. There's no good. If there's no God, there's no good, right? Because I'm the type person, you're talking to a kid, a guy who at 14, my best friend

and I said, hey, man, if we're not rich by 18, let's go on a bank robbery spree and just kill and murder and rob banks because nothing matters. Wow. And that was the mindset that I had prior to meeting Jesus. So now as a believer, I'm like, well, wait, if this stuff isn't real, then what, then nothing's real. Then what, why am I making the decisions that I'm making? Why this, this covenant called marriage, like we're already struggling. Like, why am I holding on to this?

I was holding on to it because I believe God could do restorative work. But if there's no God, there's no restorative work, you know, and then our worldviews are going to clash. because she's still praying to this being in the sky for everything to be better. And I'm realizing this is, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, and then why am I. And then why am I restraining myself from enjoying the fruit of marijuana in alcohol? You know, like, what, wait a minute. You know, what is the what? And, and, and so those things were readily. available to me because of where I was in the music industry at the time. So now I'm in a place where the mainstream, you know, I've got two songs on mainstream radio, one with Thai Dollar

sign, one with Tori Kelly. I'm getting invited to all these festivals, these events. I'm, you know, and then when I open my refrigerator at these festivals, you know, I'm opening up for post-malone. So the refrigerator's stocked with beer and liquor and everybody's smoking. And, you know, prior to, it was like, here's the time to be a missionary and to be a light. You know, but now I'm like, well, shoot, why am I abstaining? It's here, you know. And then I had a show in Milwaukee. And, you know, I remember just feeling it, man, just feeling the darkness overcome me. And I was like, feeling so low. And I went to see a friend of mine out in Milwaukee who I had to see a friend of mine out in Milwaukee who I had. seen in years and, you know, my friend was like, man, I'm going through this, this divorce and dealing with this and dealing with this. And I've been popping these Xanax to just kind of get me through. And I was like, let me try them, man, because I'm going through it. And then that

started my Xanax journey. And it was kind of like, oh, I like this feeling, you know? And now I'm like these supplements are helping me kind of ride this out. It's numbing my pain. Yeah. So now I can just pop a Xanax or two. And so then I find this doctor and I'm like, hey, I'm stressed out, depressed. Can I get some Xanax? I didn't know he was one of those pill pushing doctors. So it was like pill farm. So he's like, yo man, like I'm going to really hook you up. So he gives me way more than I need. So now I got the Xanax addiction. I'm popping Xanax and drinking and smoking just to go to sleep at night. And it was just, I mean, I'm spiraling, you know. And then I remember waking up after just a drunken stupor, high and drunk. And I was like, what am I?

Am I a hypocrite? Am I not? Is God real? Is he not? And I'm like really just trying to process. And I'm processing and processing. I'm talking down to myself and I'm telling myself like you're a failure. Nothing's real. It's all a lie. And I just start feeling just terrible, just horrible. And then I wake up the next day and the world is like, my brain is like in a fog. And I'm like, everything feels weird. I'm like, something's going on. brain, I can't feel happy. And I don't, I'm not hungry. Nothing feels enjoyable. And I was like, I wonder if this is, this must be depression. And now I'm like, oh, shoot, I'm depressed. And I thought, well, I'll shake it off. And this thing just lasted, just kept going and kept going.

And I was like, oh, I'm in trouble, you know. And so that was when, you know, I was faced with a reality of like, I can't get myself out. And I tried. You know, I went and bought all the best books on depression and all the best psychological things. And, you know, I tried. And then it was kind of like God was like, bro, come home. You know, I can tell you about that moment. But I talk about it in the song as well.

But yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do want to, real quick. What year, this is what, 2020-ish or? 2018. 2018. So all of this is kind of the spiral is like 2016, 2018-ish, okay. You're married with kids.

Like what was going on with your marriage, your wife during this time and your kids? I told my wife, I said, hey, I don't think it's beneficial for me to do Bible study with them. I said, I don't think I believe it. And so now the crazy part about it is she's like, she hears me and she's like, it's a phase. She really believed like, oh, it's a phase. He'll snap out of it. So she prayed for me, but she just, my wife is a faith person. I'm a facts person. I'm like real intellectual. Like, where's the facts? Where is there science to back this up? And I don't know. Give me four perspectives on. this and she's like she's like if god said it it'll then god means it and i'm like you can't just

accept that you got to do some research and what's the cultural context of this thing you know what i mean sounds like our marriage i'm just like she's like nope god said it it's true i believe it you'll you know and i and i and i hats off to her because i i i'd have been free freaked out. She just was solid as a rock. She prayed. You know, I scheduled us for therapy and for counseling and I try to work through some stuff. And then I just was kind of like, I think it's just probably better for us to get divorced. That's what my brain. I was like, I don't know how to say that. And I also am not solidified in where my plane has landed theologically. So I'm still, I'm still wrestling.

And then I also don't know what this means for my career, you know, because it's like, oh, if I get divorced, that's like the biggest taboo in Christiandom. And so it's like, oh, you know, I don't want to book you anymore. So it's like, I'm thinking about it financially. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. I don't know if I can do it. And so, you know, it was just a, it was a lot. And then I grew up in a broken home.

And so I'm thinking about that. I'm just thinking about it all, you know. And so it got really ugly. You know, it got, it got really, really dark. And I, and I think the saving grace for us was I spent so much time on the road. So it was almost like I could just run from my reality at home. and it was like I didn't have to deal with it. You know, we just weren't talking.

We weren't engaging with each other. And so it's kind of like, I'm on the road. She's at home with the kids. We're two ships passing in the night. And then, you know, I come home and she's like, don't interrupt my schedule with the kids, please. And I'm like, fine. I'm, you know, I'm going to go out and hang out.

And, you know, I'm getting invited to events. in the city and I'll go to these events and I'm just acting like a rock star really you know I was like oh you know I got invited to this event I got to go and you know I'm just going to everything it's not turning anything down just everywhere I need to be I'm there so kind of functionally living separate lives for a season absolutely yeah absolutely all right sinning like Saul till I hit Damascus god knocked me off the mule before I hit the casket heard a faint voice calling me late. I couldn't sleep. It said, Cray, I know you love me. I need

you to feed my sheep. Tears streaming as I weep. I felt the Lord speak. I've been running from you, but you never ran away from me. So this is where God met you. What was the turning point? What was that like? And I don't tell this story

often. But I probably only told it once. But I was sitting at home and I was like, um, I was like, if there's no God, there's no point in living. You know, life doesn't even matter. I'm a cosmic accident and there's no purpose. And so I should just die and end this. And then I was like, oh, this is a real thought I'm having.

And I'm, and then I start freaking out like, I have no will to live. And then I'm like, I'm going to do it. And then I realized how serious I was. And I was like, I'm really going to do it. And then I said, I'm freaking out. And I tell my wife, and I'm like, hey, I'm flipping out right now. I'm thinking I'm having a psychotic break.

And we go to the hospital. and never tell the hospital that you're thinking of doing something to yourself unless you really are. Oh. I get to the hospital. They give me some medicine. They ask me a bunch of diagnostic questions. The lady's like, I think you're a functional alcoholic. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

She's like, well, the amount of alcohol you say you consume, it sounds like functional alcoholism. And then this whole thing about wanting to take yourself out, you know, we're going to make you stay at the hospital for a night. I was like, cool, you know, it's cool. Let me just shake this off, take some meds, whatever. Crazy side story. While I'm sleeping in a hospital, in the middle of the night, I'm laying in my bed, and a guy is hovering over me, chanting weird things in my face. And I'll open my eyes and there's a guy, oh, you know I got a but I got something in my Nana. And I'm like, yeah, I'm afraid.

freaking out. And apparently a guy had escaped the psych ward of the hospital and broke into my room and was just hovering over me. And I'm like, hindsight, I'm like, that was demonic. Hindsight, I'm like, for sure. In the moment, I'm just like, help me. Help me. So I'll wake up in the morning and they're like, yeah, so you're going to, because of the threats to take your own life, you're going to spend the next three days in a mental hospital. And I'm like, you can't just put, you can't do that. I know. And they're like, my brother, you said it, you're going. Wow. And, um, and I'm, I'm, I think I did sign something. I don't know what I was, I was out of it. But I remember that that was, that broke me. And I sat in there. And I sat in there.

there. And God sent people in my life. Man, there was a guy who struggled with bipolar disorder. And he was a Christian. And he just, he didn't know who I was. But he came in there and he started talking about God and the Bible and just struck up a conversation with me for no, just, I'm like, what? And I'm laying in my bed at night and a janitor comes in. And he, and he says, um, he says, hey man, you read the Bible. And I was like, I do. Sometimes. He says, he said, you should check out this verse. And it was Ephaniah 317, I believe. And then I just said, well, let me jump up and read it.

And it was, it was the most beautiful message of God rejoicing over me and singing. Oh, he exults and rejoices over you. And it was like, I needed to hear these words. And then, um, when I got out, man, I just started reading, um, you know, the, the story of Peter's denial and how Jesus was not done with him. He was like, yeah, you deny me, but go feed my sheep. And tears just start streaming down my faces. I'm reading that.

And I really read the scriptures for months, you know, maybe a year almost until that point. And it just broke me. And I said, Lord, if you'll have me, I want to come back home. And, man, just slowly but surely, you know, I found a great therapist. The depression lifted, you know, and I was able to navigate. through, you know, I think I, I definitely unlocked some anxiety disorder that I did not know. That is, you know, it's, it runs in my family, but I'm able to manage it now. Back then, I didn't even know what I was dealing with.

And truth be told, I probably always dealt with it. I just didn't realize it. I was managing it with alcohol and things of that nature and work. And so yeah, man, it's a journey. Lecra, thanks so much your time, man. Appreciate you. Yeah, thanks for coming on the show. And blessings to you, your family, your ministry.

Keep up the great work, man. You take a lot of hits. You're used to it. You're a big boy. But as one who also, I know how some of that feels. And it's not always easy. But, man, you're doing amazing, amazing work for the kingdom, man. So, so appreciative of your voice.

Oh, man. vice versa, brother. I'm grateful for you. You know, love how you, you push through, man, and you wrestle. You know, you've challenged me in so many ways to wrestle with, with perspectives. And I think more than anything, man, you love people, which is what, you know, we want to be marked by is like, you love people. You love them enough to challenge them and you love them enough to wrestle with your own perspectives in order to to be consistent. And I think that's, that's so beautiful, man. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, bro. If you would like to listen to the extra innings portion of this episode where Lecrae talks about his relationship to and plays

within the American evangelical church today, head over to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and become a member of the theology in raw community.