Theology in the Raw - Mental Health, Suffering, and the Gospel: Brenna Blain

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Brenna Blain is a Contemporary Theologian, teacher, and author of the bestselling book Can I Say That? How Unsafe Questions Lead Us to the Real God. Her work focuses on the intersection of faith, suffering, and orthopraxy. She is passionate about preaching for and advising churches across the world, partnering relationally to offer guidance on complex realities with a compassionate and orthodox lens. Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theologian. My guest today is the one and only Brenna Blaine, who is a contemporary theologian, bestselling author, and teacher whose work focuses on the intersection of faith, suffering, and orthopraxy. Brenna is incredibly open and honest and authentic, as you will see. She's been a guest several times on the show. So, please welcome back to Theologianaw, the One and Only, Brenna Blaine. All right, Brenta Brayne, welcome back to Theology Narah. Do you know what number episode this is for us? I don't know.

It's got to be three or four. I think it's four. I think it's four. The first one and then my second one was with Josh Butler and Dr. Sandra Richter. And then I came back again to talk about the book. So this would be number four. Yeah. And you and Josh had become good friends, right?

We have. Yeah. it's yeah he's been a great encouragement in my life and we're actually working on a project together right now which is super fun so i get to see him almost every week and what's the project can you talk about i can't it's a surprise all right i'll i'll text josh after yeah yeah um who would have known that after that episode which was a really i mean we don't need to get into the details but it was in the wake of his book that crushed the internet lots of i mean to say you got critique was an understatement. I just had him on the podcast, actually, so listeners might be

familiar. But anyway, you were part of some of those early conversations with him without knowing him. And yeah, it's really cool to see you guys become good friends after that. Yeah, he asked if we could get coffee. He came to town because he's from here originally where I'm at. And I was like, oh, and to be fair, I don't know if this was ever said on when I was on the podcast with him, but I had read a pastoral paper that he wrote for the center years ago and just loved it. And so it often quote him when I was out speaking from that paper, but never knew him, didn't really know that he was from here. And then he asked to get coffee and I was like, okay, I think, I think that like, I was nervous more so to meet

someone who, I don't know, is just written things. And I'm like, I think are really just brilliant, honestly. His books are brilliant. They are insane. Yeah. They are so good. And I, yeah, I guess I was, I didn't really know. There wasn't really a lot of context about why he went to me.

And then I got there. And the thing, if you, if you don't know Josh Butler, you, get in person with him and you're like you are like a six foot three golden retriever like you are like he's just the kindest most encouraging person I've ever met my I'll just tell this quick story and then we can move on but my six year old is so incredibly extroverted and can be chaotic an overwhelming for a lot of people and at times for myself. And so I don't, I hadn't historically taken him with me to work when I teach or preach. But I had an event in Portland, so it was local. And I thought it was a youth event. And I thought, okay, I'll take Rudy. I'll

just try it. It'll be an okay test run. And so I texted Josh because it was for one of the churches under their umbrella group and I said he's okay and he's yeah that's awesome and I said would you mind hang out with him while I teach and he was like yeah and um really just kind of going crazy in the green room and I'm like trying to just focus in on what I'm about to do and I'm like just hearing him say things and I'm like why are you saying that and I and there's like a break in between my speaking I like spoke for about 15 20 minutes and then we took a break and then I went back out. So I came back for the break and Josh is sitting on the couch next to Rudy and he has his phone out and Josh is showing a picture that he drew of a gorilla to Rudy. And mind you,

there's like the band from God behind bars is there. They're back in the green room. There's just a ton of people back in this green room. And I walk back and Rudy just goes, I love the boobs that you drew on this gorilla and I'm like, oh, yep, that checks out. And Josh just laughed. And I was like, okay. And like, I'm speaking and Rudy doesn't want to sit in the room. And Josh is just following him around. So at the end of the night, I'm like, Josh, thank you so much for spending your evening with Rudy. And he goes, Brenna, Rudy has such a gift of inclusion. and enthusiasm for gathering people and wanting to be with them and create an enjoyable moment. And he was like, I'm so excited to see who Rudy grows into.

And no one had ever said that to me before. And it was like, I had this like almost trepidation with the way this, my kiddo is in public spaces. And here's Josh saying, no, actually this is a gift. And that was the first time for me that I was like, oh, I've been viewing this in a lens that is not encouraging towards him or even parenting him. And it was one, so convicting and two, probably the most beautiful truth that anyone had ever spoken over this kiddo. So there is nothing more special or heartwarming for a parent with a kid whom others might perceive as a problem. Extroverted, maybe wild, maybe they're, you know, bouncing off the wall.

Just being kids, you know, right? Like you're constantly like, oh my gosh, is just going to like annoy other people. It's just going to. And there's so much like social anxiety that comes with that to have some. somebody else, not just be okay with that, but to turn it around and affirm that, I can only imagine how your heart felt in that moment. And honestly, that is, there's zero surprise that Josh should be like that. I first met Josh. We were, I came across him on Twitter years ago when his first book came out, the skeletons in God's closet. I read it. And I was like, who is this

guy. This is his ability to blend thorough thoughtfulness with engaging pros, academic responsibility without feeling academic. I'm like, this is a rare gift. And I remember we corresponded a little bit on Twitter. And then I happened to be important. This is years ago. And said, hey, would you want to grab lunch or whatever? He's like, yeah, I would love to. And I remember, I still remember getting out of the car. And he was like walking up. And if you know, Josh, he's got this big wild hair right you know he's a big guy tall guy his personality is just loud right and he comes up big hug i swear within 25 seconds it was like i was talking to a best friend somebody i've known for years and we went out at lunch and just i'm like this guy is like

he's he's so incredibly kind and sharp and other centered and we've become really good friends over the years. This is why when the whole thing went down a few years ago with him, you know, I, it, it absolutely wrecked me because of how good of a person he is and to see the vitriol that he went through. And I don't want to, we, you know, we don't need to spend the whole podcast talking about Josh with the whole, the whole, uh, incident he went through. but I'm like if this is symptomatic of the online world we're living in where somebody that good of a person can be dragged so hard and I don't want and on the other side I don't want to discount some of the legitimate maybe pain that some people felt by reading not necessarily

the book but the part of the book that was published online which was not a wise move not on his part but the people who published it and I don't want to discount that that's why I was really wrestling and that's what you know led to our conversation with you and him and Sandy Richter

because I was like well there's some legitimate critiques here that should be considered but not not in this manner the way people were going about it was just I mean it was just it was terrible

it really was so you have come a long way since we met you were a one the most highly requested guests years ago when you were you had this like cultish like Instagram following and I just got bombarded one day. You didn't have bread on. You didn't have bread it on. I started watching your stuff like, ooh, yeah, she's got some good stuff to say. And but you you are doing a lot of ministry these days, right? I mean, are you traveling and speaking quite a bit?

Like what's your ministry world look like these days? Yeah, it's, um, it's an app. Absolutely. It's one of those things where you're like, I, Lord, I never asked for this. Not in like a bad way, but just I, I never asked for this. I couldn't have ever imagined this. I never thought this would be part of your plan for my life, nor just, just, it's really, it's really ridiculous. I feel like is the only word to describe it. But the amount or the intensity of it or both? Just all of it. Just the opportunities and the, I mean, okay, I'll give an example. And I think I want to be careful sharing this example because I think there could be a sense of that I could sound narcissistic maybe. But years ago, when I first got saved, it was when I was at WIWAM in 2014, I was just turning 19. years old. And my work duties when I was living there was doing washing dishes, which I was really bad at. People would always complain the next morning that the dishes were so gross and

dirty and I would always laugh because it was me. It's great. Served unto the Lord. And when we'd work in the kitchen, one of the chefs, chefs, not chef, just another kid who was doing Chapel Duty, would play, I think it's, I'm going to get this wrong, but the Art of Joy, I think, is Jack Hill Perry's first album. Oh, yeah. And I was like, who is this? Like, this is so fascinating. Because I think I had already had that very critical lens of, if you're going to believe something, you have to be able to follow the threads for it to make sense. In terms of, you know, like people would say to me, one of the things I heard growing up was the progressive argument that God was changing, right?

That, you know, in the Old Testament, the New Testament, he didn't allow same-sex relationships. But now he does because that's the, what's the ethic called the moral trajectory ethic? The trajectory hermodytic ethic. Yeah. I was being told that as a. 16, 17-year-old by friends who are attempting to say, like, hey, it's okay for you to be gay if you want to embrace this. And it was funny because it was like, I don't like, I don't like this Christian God. I don't really want to be a Christian. But one thing that I know for certain is that

this God who says he, you know, inspired this book that he basically wrote it himself. Throughout this book, it says that he does not change. So I'm, I don't want to claim that. But at the same time, it was a ridiculous argument to me that people would say he would change. So anyways, I had this lens. And so I was listening to, I think she was Jackie Hill at the time, rap with this ability to communicate theological thoughts in this deeply creative manner that is just going, who is this person? And what do they do? And so I just started consuming everything that she put out for forever. And I think it was two years ago at this point.

No, maybe a year ago, a year and a half ago. I don't know. Before that, I had ended up speaking at a two years ago, I'd end up speaking at a conference that Preston Perry was at. And it was very rare, but Jackie went with him to that event. And I was, I got seated. My assigned seat was right behind Jackie and I, I, my flight was delayed. So I snuck and sat down, looked up and was like, oh my gosh.

And just didn't want to be the person who was like, hey. So I didn't. I didn't. I go backstage the next day to get ready for my thing. And Preston's back there. And I said, hey, when are you writing your book? And you shared a little bit. And then I was like, what's your name?

And we talked. And then went out and no one was there yet. And Jackie was sitting down and it's just like, I just need to, I'll just say it now. So I was like, hey, your books have been deeply influential in my life. I just want to say thank you. And she said, you're a bun on my head, right? And I was like, oh, no way. Why do you know that?

And we had a quick conversation about a year-ish later, I think, because I was in September, almost a year later, I was on sabbatical off of social media in the internet for a month. And I was working out my room one day. This is so weird. It was such a weird story. I was working out my room one day. I felt like the Holy Spirit said, are you ready to speak with Jackie? And I immediately went, that's my flesh. There's no way that's the Holy Spirit. But there's been probably less than five times where I've just gotten this feeling, heard a very clear. word and it's been it's it's been the lord but i was just so convinced i was like this is something that i desire that i want so i wrote it down because i was like i'll just be faithful to hearing this and then you know whatever i get back on social media a month later

and she had uh followed me on instagram and i was like oh that's really interesting and then a few months later, we ended up, I got to interview here. And at the end of the interview, she was like, hey, we should talk. And I was like, what did I say or do wrong that I am unaware of, but also gracious of her to want to tell me. That's great. I need this. And she said, hey, Preston and I just feel like the Lord. She said, I felt like the Lord impressed upon me that we're supposed to have you on my podcast. And I brought it up to Preston, but I said, hey, you know who we should have on our podcast. And I guess Preston said, that girl we met in New York, that the Lord had separately spoken to him about it. This is very weird. So I went and was on their podcast,

and it was so beautiful and they treated me so well. And it was so beautiful. And they treated me so well. And was so nervous and like it was in their home and they were so disarming and so caring it was the most incredible thing you know people say never meet your heroes but um that was just it's deeply encouraging when the people that you only ever see on a platform are the same way behind close doors. Yeah. And it was an awesome thing and I was like, wow, I can't believe the Lord would do this. This is like me, like meeting Justin Bieber.

I don't know. You know, it's just like that level of things. Yeah, they don't, and they don't carry that air, like you said, at all. There is minimal gap between their public face and their private lives. And, you know, Jackie is, as you know, very, she's very introverted. So when she leans into somebody, it is like 100% a Holy Spirit. And she is very, very sensitive to the spirit working and will not say no to what the spirit is telling her to do, you know, from my perspective.

It's not, it's not like she, I think if she wasn't a Christian, she would probably not want to be around people. You know, like when she pushes it. She pushes into people. I hope she's okay with me saying this. This is, Jackie, if you're listening, this is just my opinion on how I've observed you over the years. But, yeah, she, she leans into people because she's extremely obedient to the Holy Spirit and life. And yeah, that's a great opportunity. Wow, Brenna.

That's really incredible. Yeah. And then I was like, I'm never going to, I had gotten her contact information. I was like, I'm never going to, I can't use this. I can't be that person. and saw her a few months later and she said, you have my phone number, why don't you ever use it?

And I was like, and then I went back to Atlanta to film something and she showed up for that and she was filming something after, but she was like, I'm going to come while you're filming so I can see you. And I was like, that's super nice. And then the whole thing has just become

not to the place where she very, she very kindly is just like, hey, we can, we're actually friends. Like you can, you don't, that's not a bother. And I think I, it's a thing to say, you know, I, I had so badly for so long, strived and wanted to be in rooms with people that the Lord so graciously, but sternly was like, I'm not, want you in this room. I'm not leading you to this room. Like, you're not actually needed in this room. Someone else is needed in this room. And then for the Lord to say, but also, I know you and I know your heart and I know that this would be such a gift for you. And so here is really insane to me. And so that's one facet of just this, like, dumbfoundedness of like, how did I get here?

You know, why would the Lord choose to do this? I'm speaking about and traveling about twice a month now. And that's a lot. I mean, it's a lot when you are a stay-at-home mom of a six-and-three-year-old. How do you balance that? Being a young mom and ministry. I mean, how do you now, do you have like a quota and how much you'll do ministry-wise? What kind of toll?

Is that taking a toll on your family or is it? Or have you found a good balance? You know, I think, again, the Lord just continues to be incredibly kind. And from, you know, from the beginning of it saying, I know, where I'm calling you to. I say that because the year my husband and I got married, so almost eight years ago, he got a job with this small company where both the owners are Christians, and they love the Lord, and their policy is unlimited PTO. And my in-laws are here and my parents are here. Right. And so my kids are always either with Austin when I'm traveling or they're with one of their grandparents.

And then also with that, as an aside, Austin's always been able, every time I've ended up, I say every time. I've ended up in the psych ward twice, but both of those times, they were like, go. You don't need to tell us when you think you'll be back. just go be with your wife, go be with your kids. And so that's been incredible. I don't, I have very strict boundaries about traveling, who I travel with. I will not travel alone. I don't think there's anything worse for a person who struggles with multiple different temptations than being alone in a hotel room.

I just I don't I don't think there's anything worse than that so I don't travel alone I always travel with either Austin my mentor I have a short list of people that um my husband and my mentor have said okay we're okay with these people um I won't I will not travel more than twice a month and that's been really helpful. I think the newest thing that I've been seeking out for a while that I'm very relieved to have implemented is I'm now overseen by a church elder board. And so not only does all of my, you know, my sermon prep and messages and content get theological scrutiny before it goes out. I'm also not doing this alone anymore. And so I have people, one, if I'm, you know, if I go out into public and I'm teaching and I wrong someone, now they don't have to

just come to me and hope that all respond in the correct manner. They can go. to my elder board and present what happened. And I will be held responsible for that, which I think is really important in a world that holds up people for their platforms, for their following size and for their, you know, what size audience are you speaking in front of? I think to have the weight of teaching, I think it's, I just think you have to submit yourself to that. That's super healthy and that's actually pretty rare these days with people that are public influencers, right, to be accountable to a local church leadership. Yeah.

I think that's a good model. I don't have that yet, yet. Well, do you have a board under any of your? Yeah, I have a series of. mentor figures, a board who are all pastors or pastoral. Yeah, so I definitely have that around me. It's just not like the local church. Although the church I'm at now, we've only been there a few months.

It very well could end up being something like that. And actually, they, yeah, informally, they've taken on a bit of that role already. Yeah. So, yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe I'm closer to it. than I realized, but I try to operate in a healthy community, even like when I write books, when I go places, my external ministry, it definitely is not just me as some lone ranger, you know, doing that. There's a good degree of independence, but I think there's also, that's kind of coupled with a healthy community as well. I wish I had more. You know, I wish,

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in passing you've been in a psych word twice and people that have heard you before are are aware of that. I know that's always an ongoing challenge for you, right? How are you right now? Yeah. I'm in a hard season. I'm struggling with a decent amount of anxiety that just it's very odd. It's very, I say it's odd. I didn't, when I was growing up, it was mainly depression and suicidal ideation that I really struggled with and anxiety wasn't really there, which I was thankful for and and then prior there's been kind of some anxiety as like a precursor I think I had decent anxiety before I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder but I was also in mania and that's like it's a weird thing to experience but now I seem to struggle with it more cyclically that's the right

word it's an odd thing it hits around 10 or 11 a.m. in the day and I feel it very physically in my heart doesn't beat fast per se but I feel it in my chest like I and I feel like I'm getting a stomach ulcer it's very weird and I just um the only way I can explain it is like you can ecclesiastical anxiety where I'm like, I sit down and it feels like if I'm sitting down and focusing on one thing, that's a waste. Or if I don't do anything, that's waste or everything. And it's been interesting because the questions we're kind of dealing with right now with, I have a really great care team. And it's, I think it's maybe somewhat unique. But I see a psychiatric nurse practitioner who is a believer. And then I see a licensed therapist who is also a believer.

And there's kind of this question of maybe a OCD diagnosis because what I think what people have seen who are close to me in my life is this lack of restraint in things that I do. I picked up running over a year ago and very quickly was running, you know, 30 miles a week. It was like not for racing or not. I just, my brain, I just obsess over these things. And then my compulsion is to, I'm like, okay, last week I ran nine miles for my long run. So I have to run 10 this time. And then it's like, okay, I can run 10 for three weeks.

and I have to run 11, and then I can do that for three weeks, and then I have to run 12. It's just like this thing that I hasn't necessarily been observed and perceived maybe by me as an issue up until recently. Because Preston, apparently, when you do all these things, when you're waking up at 5 a.m. and running 10 miles and then coming home and taking care of kids and then traveling and preaching and cutting trips short so that you can come back home and run again. And just you burn out. You burn out. And it's been an interesting thing. So I feel like about a week ago, I felt like the Lord, I was signed up for a race and I was very excited about it. It was a pretty, I don't know, like known prestigious, not prestigious, I don't know, it's, it is the biggest relay race in the world

and you run from, it's called Hood to Coast, you run from Hood, Mount Hood, all the way to the Oregon coast. Oh, wow. And I was so excited. And I started training and my anxiety got really, really bad. And all I was thinking about was this race. And it was like every day, I was redoing my training plan and my meal plan and all these things. and I felt this conviction that the Lord was like,

this race is a week before your kids go back to school. And you're exhausted by 11 a.m. And you can't take them places and you don't want to do things with them. So you need to give this up. And so I got out of the race. And two days later, I immediately was like, redid my training plan because I was like, I have to run the same amount or else like I'm failing myself.

I'm a quitter. And I went and spoke at an event in Denver and had never, I either, like I said, cut my trips short so that I can come back home and work out, which is ridiculous, or I go to the gym and work out. So in the last two years, I've never not taken a day off from my workout routine. That's a lot. So I decided in Denver, I'm not going to run. I'm just going to, whatever, I came home.

It was like, tomorrow, I'm going to run. I texted my friend. I was like, I think I'm going to do 75 medium and whatever, which is just like ridiculous. And she was like, I really advise against that. Preston, I woke up the next day with the worst sinus infection I had ever had. And I ended up not being able to run for three and a half weeks in the last week of it. I felt like the Lord said, if you pick this up again, you know now that it is an idol. And it is a stronghold in your life.

And if you pick this up again, you're choosing to pick up an idol and a stronghold. It's like my, you know, I'd been unveiled. And I probably cried every day for at least four days because I've just loved. It's as agonizing as it has been. There has been moments of great freedom and like self-accomplishment and running. but there is already too much of me in me. And I just so greatly desire to not, to just not have that anymore. So you gave up running?

I did, yeah. Yeah, okay. I mean temporarily or until it doesn't become an idol kind of thing? You know, I said to my husband, I would love if I could run again, but I don't get to say temporarily. I just have to put it down. Do you have, can I ask, do you have OCD? Because it sounds like that.

So that's, or is it different? Yeah. So, no, it's the, that's the exploration of my current, you know, mental health team right now is, you know, what is this? What are these? Because it seems very, you know, my obsessions are, I'm very into. to routine in rigidity and accomplishment in you typically in like physical aspects and this it's I mean it's not a secret that I've struggled with an eating disorder on and off for so long in the last two years of my life it has reared its head in a very gnarly way and so

I think there was a time when running in recovery was okay, and then it became not okay. And so I think this is another aspect of that. But it's funny, I went and had, I walk with a friend every other week who have known for forever. She's wicked smart and just, we usually end up spending four or five hours together because she, we just talk about theology and biblical studies. And she said the other night, like, I just, it just feels like nothing outside of this matters. And I just want to think about it all the time. And I was like, that's how I feel the same.

And so it's like, my brain never stops when it's theology or biblical studies or anything within that realm or, you know, I love orthopraxy. It's like so fascinating and beautiful how what we know and understand about God plays out in our lives. And are we allowing that to actually happen? I think that's one of my favorite subjects. But the exploration of that is in my brain, soothing and purposeful and meaningful and able to be done in a non-anxious way. However, my brain does that with everything else too. And so my brain is always going, oh, you could eat this meal, but it's not going to fuel you perfectly for X, Y, and Z. There have been times when I'm like, I can't eat because there's no perfect meal for the way that I want to fuel my body.

Because I just obsess over every single thing, or I obsess over, okay, if I run this way, I'm going to get this elevation and this gain, but my legs are going to be fatigued. So I'm not going to be able to do leg day the next day. So then if I switch this around, it's just like that. So there's two people in my care team who are very convinced that I have OCD. Here's the fun thing. There's no medication for OCD. There's one FDA-approved medication that I was told is ancient. And really the cure is not really a cure.

it's learning to interrupt your obsessive thoughts and to relinquish your compulsions. And so it's kind of like it doesn't really matter if I have an OCD diagnosis or not, because I'm not going to get a special pill for that. And I think I was writing this last week and just feeling like, you know, the gift of being leveled by something. because it has been so excruciating and controlling and distracting for the last handful of years to finally come to this place where, I don't know, the Lord becomes so apparent to you again and your need becomes so apparent to you again, is such a gift.

I don't say that to make light of my or other people's suffering, but I say it in that there is no waste in the things that we experience and go through. And I need, like, I just needed to be leveled again, I think was where I was headed in the heightened anxiety that was so disruptive to my every day. I so badly needed to be knocked off my feet in order to realize, oh, I'm not actually sustaining myself. Can I ask how old you are? I'm going to, I'll be turning 30 in October. Okay. That's what I thought. You've gone through so much by the time you're 30 years old. My gosh. Are you, you're speaking. It's Is it mainly on sexuality or is it?

No. No. It's all, yeah, it's all kinds of stuff, which I'm really thankful for. I don't mind talking about my testimony within sexuality and mental health. And I know that the Lord desires to use, I guess, that facet of my life. But my degree is in biblical studies in theology. And I just love teaching. the word. That's my greatest

desire. And so getting asked to be a part of teaching series or speaking at conferences outside of the realm of mental health and sexuality is kind of my I'm getting to do that a lot more. I would say

at first I was probably like 70% of my stuff was on sexuality and mental health. And if you go look at my interviews, that's what a majority of them are on. But now for speaking, it's probably around 40% sexuality, mental health, and the rest is getting to teach exposition.

Okay. Yeah. Are you egalitarian? I forget. Why did you have to ask that? I, um, you don't, yeah, you don't have to answer. I'm not. I, um, I, if you have to use the terms, because of course, I, I, I, I, if you have to use the terms, because of course,

I want to be the person that's like, no Protestant, I'm not egalitarian. I'm just biblical. And like, you can't say that because it makes you sound like, blah, blah, blah, blah, can women be? Yes, it makes you sound like an ass if I'm allowed to curse on your show. Sorry. That's, anyways, I should also say a big influence in my life after I cuss. Of course, this is great, is Gary Bershears.

He's a mentor of mine. And I guess if you had to label it, I'd be considered. soft complementarian. I haven't, but I would say because of this, I have not been able to sit down and do enough research to understand the arguments for female elders versus only non, or only male elders. I fully believe that women can be pastors, teachers, teachers, for mixed audiences. I try not to be. I don't want to, whatever. I, yeah, there's that.

But then I also believe, like, within, and I think my husband would probably label himself an egalitarian, which is funny, because whenever people are like, you shouldn't teach, I'm like, I'm just trying to submit to my husband who told me I have to walk in my gifting and calling that the Lord has made, quote, unquote, evident in my life. And so I'm just trying to obey him. But I can't deny where it says wives, respect your husbands.

And I don't know. Maybe that's unfair to say complementarians don't like that. I guess I haven't read through a great. But I desire for my husband to lead our family to bear a weight of responsibility that I don't want to bear. fair, to be honest. So I have that. And then, yeah, I will speak and teach and partner with churches that have female elders. I don't have a problem with that.

But my thing is, if I'm going to teach or preach at your church, or if I'm going to partner with your church for advisory or any theological discussion, I am under the assumption that I'm doing this under the authority of your local elders. And I think that's a great protection. You know, I'm just finishing up a book on women in leadership. Are you? Yeah. So it's been a, I mean, I was raised like John MacArthur style.

Yeah. Complementarian, right? So up in probably like 10, maybe like 15 years ago, I was like, dude, I have not studied this issue out. And I'm always a big fan of letting the strength of my passion match to depth of my stuff. And since the depth of my study was minimal, I was like, well, I, I don't know where I'm at. But as you know, the literature on the topic is so mountainous. Oh, yes. It's insane.

And so I was like, I really, and I'm, I can be pretty obsessive. I don't have OCD, but I can be, I can get obsessed with the topic to where I'm like, until I read everything on this topic, I'm not going to make a decision or where I'm at. So that's been my last three and a half years is trying to read everything on the topic and that's so fun. Can I say I'll give you a hot take? My biggest frustration with churches when they're soft complementarian is when I'm like, okay, tell me where Paul says women can preach to boys 18 year old or younger. I'm like, where is that?

Where are you getting that arbitrary age from? It's bizarre to me when there are churches who are saying, my frustration is you would be more faithful to your theological view if you just did not let women teach, preach, period. because I do not understand where, how churches parse out. We have women teach to our middle school students, and that's fine, but nothing older. Or we have women teach to our high school students, and that's fine, but nothing older. Or nothing on a Sunday.

I'm like, or nothing on a Sunday morning, but if it's a worship night, that's fine. I'm like, I don't, I think that's more unfaithful to, the belief in the theology there's a lot of um honestly in my research and i just basically went through from genesis to revelation as much as i could obviously i can't cover everything but um the most important chat well the most important yeah chapter in my book not that i need to parse out in terms like that but the most important part of my study was doing a deep dive into the first century church and realizing that so much of the discussion assumes so many contemporary church categories and structures and even leadership terms. And I just, I'm like, I want to know we're women leaders in the first century house churches, according to the categories of a first century house church.

that just opens up a whole new conversation. You know, I mean, even like, you think about how popular the term pastor is as a title. Paul uses that once. Yeah, it's not a title or you can't find anyone who is a pastor named in the New Testament. Yeah, it's a pastor-teacher, Ephesians 411 is the only time he uses that. He only uses overseer and elder in three letters. He wrote 13 letters to churches. There are leaders in these churches.

Even elder, I was literally just going through this chapter again, like elder pastor, pastor overseer are three of many ways in which leaders are described in the first century. And even the social context of the first century is, I think largely, not exclusively, but largely missing in the conversation. It exists in like the top tier kind of scholars by diving into it stuff. But a lot of the more popular approaches to the topic, it just kind of, they kind of assume these. contemporary church structures and read that back into the end of the New Testament where it's way, way more complex than that, socially complex and even paying attention to Paul's diverse leadership terminology, you know. So yeah, it's been a fun journey. So are you going to send me that book, please? I will send you that book. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's so good. So, yeah,

Do you want to keep talking about mental health? I don't, I don't, yeah, that'd be great. Is it, is it helpful for you to talk about it? I mean, I'm curious. Yeah. Yeah, I would say, you know, I think I had mentioned this in my email to you. I think the previous times that I've done interviews for the most part, they've been, when I've been in this season of really, really, of doing well.

And that's great, but I think there's something different about speaking from that place. Because we do so easily forget. I just think about the Israelites and in the Psalms, they just have to repeat what they're saying because their hearts are so fickle and they forget that God led them out of captivity. And so I think speaking from a place, I mean, there's three things. I was like, I would love to talk about this

that I don't think I've gotten to talk about in mental health on any podcast. And the first is, I don't think anyone talks about, or I don't think it says loudly discussed, the loneliness of chronic mental health. I say that because I think there is this, and I'm sure my mom was saying, you need to read more books by people who are chronically ill. She's like, I think you'd find a lot of comfort and encouragement there. But you get to this place where you're like, I'm struggling again. And I don't want to say, I don't want to share that with people. Because I'm really tired of the response always being, I want, like, prayer for your healing.

As if I don't think people are necessary, I don't think the heart is for, is people rushing you out of your suffering. But when you're like, well, my community has been praying for me for eight years now. And now it's hard again and I'm struggling again. And the response is always, I'm going to pray for this future hope or whatever. It's like, I don't know. I just, it's again, and I always talk about this, but it's just the picture of Jesus weeping with Martha and Mary, there's no.

No real sense. And I think you'll probably know this term sitting shiva. No, sitting shiva, no. What is that? Yeah. And I'm probably saying it wrong. I'm not a Jewish scholar, but it's the idea of sitting shiva was when someone was grieving or mourning, the community would go to that person's house and just sit with them. And they wouldn't speak unless spoken to. And you would just Interesting. Just be present. Be with them. Well, they mourned.

And I think we're missing that in Christian community, maybe more specifically within the church. The church's response is often to rush you through your grieving, pray for you to get out of it. But they don't know how to sit with you in it. And they don't know how to be, we're bad at the reality of chronic pain, suffering illness. And I just. We want to fix it, right? Yeah. And I think in that inadvertently, you become, you feel like a, not a, I don't want to say burden.

I don't feel like I've ever necessarily been a burden. And I think that's a huge blessing for me. I have people, you know, I've had people say to me when I've been very depressed. you are so loved and I'm like that's awesome and I don't doubt that I just don't want to be here anymore it's not because I feel unloved it's because I hate this I'm deeply uncomfortable and now it's more of a I think as I get older and I and it lasts chronic mental health issues last and I know people are going to say don't speak that over yourself but I'm going I don't I have faith in salvation in Jesus, and it's not going to be forever.

And I pray to be healed and relieved in this lifetime, but there's just no, as this continues, I find not a home in my suffering, but again, I find the gift of being leveled over and over again. The gift of being leveled? Yeah. Can you unpack that? Yeah, I mean, when I say that, I mean, like a building being demolished, leveled to the ground in that, you know, this last season, it's been, for me, my anxiety has been, how can I fix it? What can I do?

This, like, spiraling of everything and trying to control everything and feeling like I was in control of everything. and to get to the place where the Lord is saying, I'm actually going to strip you. I'm going to make you aware of how you have idolized these things that you think have made you healthy. And then I'm going to ask you to strip yourself of that. Do you have a, I don't know what this is the right question to ask, but like an identifiable source for your mental health struggles?

Is it upbringing experiences? Is it largely just chemical? Like some people are just biologically predisposed to, you know, suffer from mental health challenges? Like, is that something that you can diagnose for yourself? Well, I've been diagnosed by several other people in my life. That's the thing is we want to find something to point to. And I don't think that's necessarily wrong because, you know, sometimes you're just really depressed because you're living in sin. Right. And that is a gracious gift from the Lord to feel the weight of that. Sometimes

you're deeply anxious, again, because you're trying to be in control of things that you're not in control of. For me, I've heard every, there are so many factors in my life that I think it would be unfair. My mentor always says to me, it's like trying to separate salt and pepper when it's like it's not it's probably not going to be helpful for you people a lot of people notice i was sexually abused um right before i turned 10 but before that i remember i think the first time remembering feeling deep anguish like i wanted to die was about four years old um so i i don't know where that came from i was told once by a therapist um i had insane ear infections since I was a baby and someone told me being on antibiotics all the

time can really impact your mental health. Then there's also an aspect of the trauma that your mother has experienced and then that like your maternal mother. How my mom was born, her mom was 19 when she had her, when she smoked and drank when she was pregnant with my mom. There's that aspect. My dad has really struggled with mental health at different points in his life. My sister is also bipolar. So there's something clearly, there's a genetic or biological contribution to it, which may have been exacerbated by life experiences, being a victim of sexual abuse. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Nature and nurture. Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, I live in the Pacific Northwest. Someone was like, you've never lived anywhere. Or like when I did Wyam, I was in Hawaii for three months. And I was like, I felt great. But I don't think moving someplace else is necessarily going to change a lot now. But there's, there are so many factors. And I was planning on starting my next book. I was going to write my, um, what? what do we call it? What's the proposal? Yes, that thing. Oh, yeah. So you're going to write my book proposal and I was going to start writing it in May and I was on a flight home in April and I felt like the Lord said, you could write a book right now and you could say things, but it wouldn't, it wouldn't be, it would just be you putting content into something. And you need to go through some more things and you need to figure some crap out and you need to grow in

wisdom and I was like I just I just would like to have money again but um okay Lord like sure bring it on and I didn't say bring it on I'm I'll be honest um and then going oh this is a helpful I don't think this is the thing I'm supposed to go through before for I attempt to write again, but I do think it's a very helpful thing to... So wait, you are going to write another book? I mean, if I don't die. I shouldn't laugh. That's terrible. Well, it's true.

You said it in a funny way. Yeah, my laughter preceded my brain there. Do you have the topic? Do you know exactly, or... I do. I feel like the Lord gave me the topic. which is funny because I'm like, yeah, I couldn't write that book right now, so. Do you know, are you allowed to say what the topic is or no?

You probably don't want to say it. I'm sure it's probably fine. I'm sure, well, whatever. I don't. Who plays by those rules? Not me. I'm hoping that, and again, people, it's, I'm not even going to revisit thinking about writing a proposal for it for another year.

So, but I would love to write a book about the good. life, probably the subtitle being how Christ outfits the life of sufferers, and a much more discipleship and theological look at. We are told that life is about achievement and being comfortable and making a way for ourselves in these things granted or called success in in the carnal reality, but when we look at who Jesus is, in the way that he desires to work through our lives, in the way that he has worked through the lives of the people in the biblical narrative. The good life is the life that you've been given in your suffering, in your poverty, in whatever anguish you carry, lived out.

through the fullness of the Holy Spirit becoming fully exposed in you, right? And so us shrinking in Christ becoming fully known and fully, I don't know, apparent in that place. And I say that and I think people are like, no, duh, you can't write that right now. Like the Christ is not, the fullness of Christ is not in me whatsoever. And maybe I need to make a theological claim. that I had the Holy Spirit, there is just much of me and me. But yeah, I just want to, I just, you know,

and also looking at the fact that we are all suffers, if you are human on earth. So it's not just for certain people, but it is to say, life isn't about striving to be comfortable or to succeed. There is a great gift in the anguish that you walk through. And Christ is enough. that place. So how is he enough? Like, who are the sufferers? What does that look like? How is Christ

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timeline.com forward slash theology gummies to get started. That's timeline.com forward slash theology gummies. Your sales will thank you. The hard thing for me with suffering is there's, and I don't know the right terminology here, but like there's natural suffering or suffering that's not experienced at the hand of an evil person. Then there's suffering where somebody is a victim of evil and there needs to be, you know, justice, right? And that's sometimes that line can be fuzzy. I think about your mental health and especially the

sources that come more from just biology, the way you're born into a fallen world and you experience mental health challenges if somebody else with a similar life experience might not, you know?

But then I think of like you being a victim of sexual abuse like that in as much as that contributes to your suffering. I'm like, well that's that's evil. And, and I don't know, I've always been, you know, like, obviously God can use that evil for good, as the Bible says frequently. But I don't, we don't celebrate that at all. Like, I don't know.

I just, is it right to kind of see those as kind of two different kinds of suffering? I don't know. Yeah, yes. I do think that would be correct. But I think my, I sit here going, I'm not in control of what happens, but I can be a good steward of the outcome. Yeah, you can't, yeah, it's hard to parse out God's involvement in each one, right? If you're a super Calvinist, you might even say God caused all suffering. If you're not, you might say he allowed it, but he, you know,

profoundly grieves over all suffering. I'm curious because it's such a high percentage of people that have been victims of sexual abuse, especially in an early age, which is just mind-blowing. Is that something you can, how have you dealt with that specifically? And is that something you can ever actually be, like, healed from? The trauma that results from being a victim of sexual abuse. abuse. Yeah.

I would say there certainly are people that would say you can be fully healed from that because they're people, you know, that their doctrinal statement on their website is we believe in the full health for every believer of Jesus Christ. And I'm like, tell me more about that. And where did you draw that from? And have you read about Paul? Anyways, you know, there are, can you tell that's something else that's been on my mind recently?

Again, I think it's like the solver. and pepper analogy where it's like there are so there are things pressed in that i you know i've i've done EMDR i can be honest for me i was like i don't really feel a difference like maybe slightly i can think about what happened to me now and be more articulate about the actual event without being in distress um which i was going to say which is great but i'm also like not really I mean, you know, that's whatever. But like I am, something I never heard people talk about. I gave birth to my first son and I could not nurse without feeling like I was going to die.

Physically or mentally, I mean, or both. Both. It was just both. Like the distress that I felt having to. to nurse specifically around other people was so intense and I don't, and no one ever said, hey, by the way, when you give birth, like, your past traumas might come back up again. I'm like, that would have been nice if someone said, you know, warned me about that. That was, that was so weird.

I remember when Austin and I are dating and he, we were like bowling with friends and he came up behind me and hugged me from behind and I was like almost gave him a black eye is there's just like things that come up that you're like that was weird that was a trauma response like it's just a most of those things have gone away you know with my second kid it was like I had gone through at least two and a half years of therapy by then for my abuse specifically and that had gotten a lot better and um obviously physical intimacy is in like a way better place than it was when you know 10 years ago but there's just things that will come up that you're like that was i didn't expect that i didn't think that would trigger me i didn't think that would impact me as greatly as it does

i think there i don't know again i think there will be people that will say you can you can be totally healed. And I don't doubt that in specific ways and instances. I might not ever have anything come up. And, you know, to, I would say recently, like, I haven't had any weird trauma things. And so maybe I am healed from that. But I just think, you know, watching your kids, right that too when you're like oh like i'm now that i'm more educated in this realm i am anticipating that when my boys get to that get around the age that i was when i was abused that there will be some sensitivities and perhaps some anxieties or concerns um just with them being the same age i'm curious and you're you're kind of an open book obviously is your

is there an interaction between your mental health and your sexuality, your same-sex attraction? Are those completely different categories or do they play off of each other? And again, I don't know if that's even the right way to phrase the question. I mean, there's some fairness in that, right? Because what I deal with, again, is pretty cyclical. It makes sense for me to struggle more with the temptation of same-sex attraction. when I'm in a season of mania, which most, now that I am more, I don't want to say, I'm not more medicated.

I have pretty low doses compared to most people, and I'm on, I'm only on two mental health medications. So mania is not a regular thing because I'm, you know, I'm healthy within that. I don't want, sorry to interrupt, but can you explain just really quickly what mania? I mean, I think I have an idea. Yeah. So when you are bipolar, you kind of go through these cycles and it's different.

The intensity of each cycle is different depending on if you're bipolar one or bipolar two. I also believe I might be incorrect, but I believe they've moved towards more so of describing bipolar as a spectrum rather than one and two. but mania or manic episode is when you it's like really it's really high high and you're out you feel great you get a huge sign for it is little to no sleep you don't feel like you need to rest um this is like the classic kind of episodes are when people go to stores and spend thousands of dollars or do thousands of dollars of online shopping I don't know my My family always jokes that that's why I shaved my head. But I didn't.

I did it because I wanted to. And I did it three weeks before. This is very important, Preston, because I am an enneagram for if we're going to be inappropriate as Christians for a minute. And I shaved my head three weeks before COVID. So I shaved my head before everyone else did. Okay. Anyways. But, you know, Brittany shaving her head.

That's like a classic, like mental health break. kind of thing. I don't know. People do, it's like very risky behavior, really. I don't know. We might have talked about this last time I was on, and I'm, I'm in a place where I can, I feel like I can finally talk about, but I, so I was unmedicated for a, I want to say two and a half, maybe three-year stretch under the advice as, oh, from a licensed therapist who told me I could be unmedicated, which eventually landed me in the psych ward for a second time, where I found out from being detained by the state that bipolar people typically are never suggested to go off medication. You are typically on medication for life. So during that

stretch of time, I was using drugs. And very, like, I say that. And it's funny, because I didn't grow up partying or anything. I was like, oh, I was doing the dry version of lean or purple drink as, I don't know, millennials older than myself would call it. But I was cycling through cough medication, antihistamines, and pain medication whenever I had it. And I was just the most chill version of myself for, I remember I went to a conference. It was the art of teaching, maybe in 2022, John Tyson and John Mark Comer and a new. And that was when I first realized I had a problem because I was leaving for the morning session and I had gone through an extra large bottle of NyQuil I think within six days

and I wasn't sick. Oh my gosh. And I was like. That's a lot of NyQuil. That's not right. And so it's very, yeah, it's very easy to be. when you're not medicated, I think mania is a, there's a much higher risk of being in that and you make poor decisions. It's easy to make poor decisions when you're in that place.

I know you're asking about sexuality. I'd say, you know, the times when I'm like, struggling with that temptation is typically within a manic episode. So, so mania can be the high or the low. I think it's much more the, it's the high. Yeah. So then it would be bipolar. depression is low. Oh, okay. Okay. So, okay. So I didn't have the right category. I think mania, I think like hyper anxiety or kind of going crazy or whatever. It's not, it's mania. It's like you're on this high high. Like you are like feeling really good about life. Yeah. When, when there's been times when like Austin came home and I was like, he's like, what do you do today? And I was like, oh, I wrote, recorded and produced four songs on garage.

band and I don't I don't even particularly enjoy doing that but you just have all this energy and you want to do creative things and you think you're like on top of the world it is a crazy thing to feel and then do you crash like if you're extra manic the crash people usually crash people usually crash if you don't make a choice that crashes you for yourself you typically It's the, I think, as maybe I'll quote it right, for all the scientists, biologists, listening, the potential action dip. Okay. Maybe that's what that is. That's a little frightening because when you're experiencing mania, you feel great, but then now you know a crash is coming.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's very sad. It's very, very sad. And I think that's why so many people lose. I shouldn't say so many people, but I think people lose the battle with bipolar, usually coming out, you know, crashing because you're like, and when, I mean, even for people who are depressed, you could have a normal day. And then you could have the same day, but being depressed. And it just feels like the worst day ever, even if nothing bad happened. And your reality is not. truth and that's what's i think so damning about mental health and in these illnesses is it's just you get tunnel vision um and i i don't think the majority of people who take their lives

are do it in a place of being lucid or, you know, clear, it's not a clear-headed choice for the majority of people. Before I let you go, you know, I would say there's probably a decent percentage of people who are resonating with, at the very least, parts of your story, if not huge chunks of your story, or at the very least, there's parents or loved ones listening who have somebody dear to them who maybe has a similar story as yours. Let's, let's, so I guess there's two responses I'd love for you to give. First of all, to somebody who is personally resonating with parts of your story. Maybe they've experienced sexual abuse. Maybe they experience

bipolar or anxiety or suicidality. I mean, do you listen to a slughey? I mean, do you listen to a slew of challenges that you faced. What do you want to say to that person first? I'm not asking you to give like a medical diagnosis. And so maybe, yeah, I'm sure you're hesitant to give like really specific without knowing the person or whatever, but just in like a really broad piece of advice. I think the first would just be your story and what you're dealing with is not too much for Christ. And I know that sounds cliche. But in a world, that, you know, has exacerbated the fact that me and church people are shiny, clean, happy people and you pray for the silver lining. And when we talk about this stuff, we only ever pray

for healing. We never, we don't embody what it means to believe in the sustaining power of Jesus within community. Like, we don't shoulder people well. encouragement would be, like, you were fully known and seen and understood by Christ. I was driving to church on Sunday. I was listening to an old Mars Hill band. I think it's called The Modern Post. Oh, I love the Modern Post. They have, they're so good.

They're so good. And they have their song, Rejoice. And the last verse talks about Jesus, us going before us in our suffering and pain and now walking with us in our suffering and pain and just the absolute gift of going yeah we have a savior who knows and has felt and has walked through the temptation and the grief and the pain of what it is like to have a not just a human body I think that part is always like made clear but a human brain like have we ever contemplated that that Jesus Christ had a human brain and faced the toils he experienced anxiety we know

that for certain when we look at him heading towards the cross in his last days, that he felt that and knows that and now is a comrade with us in that. I think it's just I'm not looked past or and God is not trying to rush you through what you're experiencing. He knows it. He's with you. He's sitting with you in it. And then my bold encouragement always, not just with this, but with anything, is just would you just be the person who is willing to make everyone else uncomfortable at church? Like if you are like, I can't go to church because I can't not sob through the whole thing because of the pain that I'm in, I'm like, please just go and do it. Because the church desperately needs to learn how to sit Shiva with people.

Or just go and say, hey, thanks for praying for me for the last five years. I'm still not doing well, and I'm not going to stop telling people. Like, I'm just, it's not, I think just holding the tension of we live in a broken world, I'm a broken person, this is my reality, is a gift. It's an uncomfortable gift that is deep. impactful to the Christian community around you. And again, when we sit with the reality, when you're willing to be real about what you're going through, I think that's where God is more able to clearly teach you.

I like the classic saying of, it's not that we're learning new lessons with God. It's that we're learning the same thing at a deeper level again. Now that's really helpful. And it's unfortunate that some of those things are. Sound kind of Christian cliche, but they're so deeply, profoundly true. Christ's not empathizing with our suffering from a distance, but as one who has experienced it. We know it. It's true. But goodness, that, it's one of the things that makes Christianity really unique, I think. It's so profound. To somebody who isn't personally suffering, but has a loved one who is, how can. And maybe a number one do and a number one don't for that person. Yeah, number one do. I think just ask the questions.

I, Preston, I wish we had more time to talk about this. But in my mental health currently right now, I'm like, no one has ever told me or talked about, and you can find resources. It's harder. It's not a parent. How hard it is to parent kids when you are mentally ill. the challenges of that as like and I'm like why is like how does the church is so great at caring for the parents or the people who are going through cancer treatment but the people who've

experienced it know how debilitating mental health can be and there are times when you're like I can't I cannot get out of bed um and so I think I would encourage people to look at it in a more concrete way of saying, okay, if someone else I knew was suffering from they just got surgery or they're going through chemotherapy, I'm more willing to be attentive to their needs, like their practical needs. I would encourage people to try to take on that point of view to go, oh, sometimes, I mean, the most profound, beautiful thing someone did for us the second time I got out of the psych ward without asking really no one knew that I was in the second time the day I got home with our friends they didn't ask to talk they dropped off three meals from Costco you just need to rest and be with your family that was insane and then I think don't I don't know there's not I'm different I know I'm different I know I'm different from most people.

I love, I hate when people are like, I don't just, I think don't, don't, okay, okay, here we go. Don't avoid the topic or direct questions. I think people feel disrespectful in it or awkward, and it's like, no, I wish, I, I remember there's one point, when I went into this, like, one, and I'm sorry, Preston, this is going on for a little bit. But when it's the psych word, I call it that when I got out, I called it for sobriety because I came home and all the drugs were cleaned out of our house. We didn't even have kids drugs for probably eight months. And then we got a lockbox when drugs came back into the house. A few two and a half feet almost years later. I think that's why about that.

Anyways, later, got sick was on. cold medication and was kind of like no one's saying anything so I think this is okay and some one person in my life said you should not be using that it's been a problem for you in the past I know you're sick and I know it's just an over the counter whatever but I think that's a problem and to me I felt seen when I was wondering if anyone else around me was seeing me. Not that there was responsibility on my part using that, and I wasn't attempting to use it in a wrong way. But when I was taking it, I was like,

oh, I feel like everyone forgot that I struggled with this. And I think that person being so willing to be so direct about something just made me feel, oh, they care for me, they know my struggles, they see me. So I would just encourage direct questions that are intrusive because if you're going to knock on the door and try to talk to someone outside of the house, they can just say they're fine when you're like, I didn't know you were in your bathtub drowning. You have to be intrusive. We need way more of that in church.

Way more. Be intrusive. That's a good word. It sounds negative, but, you know, I mean, and if somebody doesn't want that, they can let you know or whatever. I'm not ready to talk about that. I don't want to talk about that with you.

Whatever, like, let them be the ones to say, I don't need that right now. Deep down, they probably still need it, but don't just assume that they don't want you to be intrusive. Brenna Blaine, always a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for your vulnerability, your honesty. We need so much more of that in church. And yeah, we'll keep praying for you.

Thank you. In a maybe a more nuanced way, not just praying for healing, but praying that God would be present with you and would use you to help encourage and bless many who are on similar journeys. So thank you so much for being a guest on the Algera again. I really appreciate you. Thanks for having me. Hey, podcast listeners, if you're looking for another podcast besides Theology Raw, of course,

that features fascinating conversations with theologians, philosophers, and best-selling authors, then I highly, highly recommend the Signal Award-winning show No Small Endeavor. Produced by Great Feeling Studios and PRX, No Small Endeavor explores what it means to live a good life. In each episode, the host and, I must say, Theologist and raw friend, Dr. Lee Camp, sits down with special guests like pastor theologian Tish Harris Warren, civil rights hero Reverend James Lawson, and one of the world's most influential living theologians, Stanley Hauerwas, to discuss their faith and how it is shaped their journey.

So if you're looking for someone to start, check out their brand new episode with Americana songwriter Drew Holcomb, in which he unpacks how creativity is a way to overcome fear and make something that didn't exist before. It's a beautiful and heart-to-heart conversation definitely worth. the list. So don't miss out. Follow no small endeavor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.