Theology in the Raw - "My Whole Black Self:" Leading as a Black Pastor in White Dominant Spaces: Marvin Williams

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Marvin Williams is lead pastor at Trinity Church in Lansing Michigan, who’s finishing a Doctorate at Fuller Theological, where he’s writing a dissertation titled, “My Whole Black Self” which focuses on self-differentiation of black men living in predominantly white spaces.  -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Rah. My guest today is my friend Pastor Marvin Williams, who's a lead pastor at Trinity Church in Lansing, Michigan, who is also finishing his doctorate at Fuller Theological Seminary. And the title of his dissertation is My Whole Black Self, which focuses on self-differentiation of black men living in predominantly white spaces, which is the topic of our conversation. Really learned a ton of this conversation. And as you'll see, Marvin is just an absolute delight, delightful conversational partner and just a solid pastor who I've looked up to you for many years.

The XSOS Conference, don't forget, is coming up April 3rd to 5th in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We're talking about all kinds of important and crucial topics. It's going to be a fantastic conference. If you want to all kinds of important and crucial topics. It's going to be a fantastic conference. If you want to attend live, you can do so. Space will start filling up soon, or you can live stream it if you can't make it out to Minneapolis. All the information is at theologyinthera.com. All right. Please welcome to the show for the first time, my friend, Marvin Moors. Marvin Williams.

Pastor Marvin Williams, it's been a while. It's been a minute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do we first, we met in Grand Rapids years ago. Was it like six years? It's about six or seven years ago. We were at Laurie Krieg, Laurie and Matthew Krieg. They were doing some work in terms of whole-in-my-heart ministry. I connected with Laurie a while back, and when she and Matt came back to the Michigan area, they actually came to our church and I interviewed them in terms of all the things that they were doing, in terms of connecting the things that they were doing in terms of connecting

with those who were dealing with their struggles with sexuality. And so Lori and Matt, they were one of my first interviewees of as we talked about that particular issue during a sermon series we were doing. Okay. And then what city, what, where are you at in Michigan? I'm in Lansing. Oh, that's right. Okay. I'm in Lansing, Michigan. And then after that, um, I think they hosted a conference and you were one of the speakers. I was one of the speakers and we got an opportunity to connect.

And that probably was about seven years ago, I believe. I remember that conference. That was intense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing Laurie at the end. She almost collapsed out of just emotional exhaustion. She's just, that girl leaves everything on the table when she's speaking. Well, you, you are in the middle of a doctoral program at Fuller Seminary, and you have a really interesting research project. Can you give us, yeah, just tell us a little bit about it. And I would particularly love to hear kind of the backstory, like what led you to want

to pursue this project. Super interesting. Sure. So the title of it is My Whole Black Self. And this whole idea of self-differentiation, teaching Christ-centered self-differentiation, particularly to black men who work in predominantly white spaces. Now, again, self-differentiation is a family systems theory concept. Murray Bowen is the godfather of family systems theory.

He had some, obviously, some other disciples along the way, Edwin Friedman, who wrote the book, A Failure of Nerve. And so several years ago, I was accepted into the doctoral project. And as I read my first introduction to Murray Bowen's Family Systems Theory was in the book, A Failure of Nerve. That literally changed the way I thought about my family, thought about the organization I was a part of, the church, is that every family or organization is an emotional system. When one person catches anxiety, it can easily become contagious where everyone catches anxiety. And so one of the concepts to deal with that is self-differentiation.

And self-differentiation is this idea to the ability to remain calm and connected to the person who is causing the reactivity, who is causing the anxiety, whether acute or chronic. So I looked at my own life and I recognized that in the leadership position that I was in as a senior teaching pastor and then later on as the lead pastor, that I was catching other people's anxiety and I was making decisions based on emotions and not being principle-led. Some of the elders in our church

who are no longer at our church right now, I would get text messages and emails from them, at least one in particular, and I felt the anxiety. It took me, Preston, it took me several days to open some emails because there was a history of causing anxiety. And instead of leaning into it, I would withdraw.

And so there's this sense where I just did not, I felt the anxiety all over me. So when I came in contact with this book and the idea of self-differentiation, I began to understand how do I define my principles so that when I'm in a situation like that again, I will lead not out of emotion, but out of principles. And then I began thinking, is that something that is a part of my ethnicity or is that something that's a part of my upbringing? I'm a black pastor in a predominantly white church and I began asking the question, how do I show up as my full black self in this environment?

How do I show up not thinking that, you know, I have to continue to pay my dues as a black man in this environment, but how do I show up as my full self as a black man who belongs at the table, who I've been called to this church, God has called me here, and how do I show up with my full self without withdrawing or without enmeshing? Enmeshing is losing myself, losing my identity

to be kind of in group think versus withdrawing, saying that I don't have anything to do with this environment and I will kind of pull myself back. And so this concept of self-differentiation kind of moved me to say, no, how do I stay connected? How do I stay connected to God, stay connected to myself, and stay connected to the individuals and the organization that's causing the anxiety. And so my hope is to teach the tool of self-differentiation to black men who either minister or work in predominantly white spaces so they can show up as their full selves and not kind of split as W.E. Du Bois says that there is something called double consciousness. And double consciousness is when a particularly a black person shows up in one space

one way and shows up in another space in a different way. And so he is saying, how do I'm trying to get Murray Bowen and W.E. Du Bois to talk to each other and say, how do we show up as black men, as our full selves in spaces that sometimes may not want us there, but also in spaces where that might cause a lot of anxiety because we might be the only one. There might be microaggressions, those kinds of things. So anyway, that's kind of, I know that's a lot of, it's a lot there, but that's kind of the idea that I'm going after. So you'll have to excuse me. I might ask some dumb questions, partly because I'm an idiot

and partly because I might be thinking, oh, I wonder if somebody is thinking, maybe somebody else is an idiot and I'm trying to be a medium to follow their thoughts. Is your experience as a black man in predominantly white spaces and these things you're wrestling with, would you say that's very common for many or all black men in similar spaces. And then I would love to know, like, what does that feel like in your body? Can you unpack kind of that experience for the listeners? Yeah, I think, and again, everyone has different experiences, but I think there are some similarities across the board.

Whether you're the only one or whether it is microaggressions that some people in white spaces may not even be fully aware of. For instance, when I first started at the church where I am, we were doing a series in the book of Malachi, We were talking about justice and injustice. And I had one guy come up to me and say, I need you to forgive me. And I'm being, you know, I began asking, why do you need me to forgive you? He says, because when you candidate it here, I didn't vote for you. And I said, well, I'm quite sure a lot of people didn't vote for me. But he said, you need to understand why I didn't vote for you.

I did not vote for you because you were black. And in my upbringing and in my life, I've had black individuals to hurt and harm me with their words and their actions. And so he immediately put me in that space. And I said, no, that's okay. And he said, no, you need to hear me. I really need you to forgive me.

I deflected and he said, I really need you to forgive me because I don't want my son growing up with that kind of anger and hatred toward black people. And there in the beginning, at the front of the auditorium, we prayed, we cried, and it was a moment that I recognized that he was a microcosm of what I was feeling in other people. It felt like I was being tolerated even though I had been there about three years. I felt like I was being tolerated as opposed to accept it. Now that you know the Spirit didn't tell me that I just felt it and I felt you know the same people asking the same or saying the same

thing, we're so glad you're here. We're so glad you're here after three years after five years. We're so glad you're here. So it was, it was that those kinds of physiological feelings, so emotional feelings, the way people kind of treated me as a novelty as opposed to, no, I'm your pastor. I really am your pastor, and God has called me here, and I'm not the token here at Trinity Church. And so, 14 years later, it's been a good ride. Was that a good thing that he came to you and says, I need you to forgive me? You're framing that positively. Obviously, his previous posture was pretty toxic, but did he do the right thing in approaching you in that way?

Oh, I think he did. I think he did. That was a good part. The not so good part is I started thinking how many people sat on that and did not come to me, but felt the same way. And there were some people anecdotally who left the church because, you know, kind of through the rumor mill, if you will, that I just don't want a black man leading me in this predominantly white church. And so I had to deal with that. And I had to find ways like, what is the guiding principle in me? The guiding principle in me is not based on what other people think about me,

but it really is, I have a definite call, number one to ministry and a definite call to the place where God called me in this church in Lansing. And so that became the thing that the guiding principle for me as a pastor in a predominantly white church. And I believe that has to be, anyone who's working in a predominantly white space, it has to be a call from God as opposed to I'm deciding to work in this space and trying to change this space because, you know, it's predominantly white and we need it to be multi-ethnic. It has to be a guiding, the calling has to

be one of the guiding principles that brings you there and I believe that keeps you there. What are some other common microaggressions that you have faced in predominantly white spaces or, and also are your common experiences that common to other black men in predominantly white spaces, and also are your common experiences that common to other black men in predominantly white spaces? Yeah. What are some things we're doing that we don't realize we're doing? Well, one in particular, so being in Grand Rapids, I was a part of Calvary Church in Grand Rapids and that's where I met Claire de Graff, a mutual friend of ours. And so I got an opportunity to, you know, being at Calvary, I got a chance to speak

in a lot of predominantly white churches. There are a couple of churches after I spoke, there's a gentleman who came up to me and said, I listened to your entire message and I did not find one thing wrong with it. And I'm saying, well, thank you. Thank you for that. That to me, he was searching for something that I would say that he could find wrong. And then I asked him, do you do that to your pastor? Do you do that to other guest speakers

who are not African-American? And his answer was surprisingly, well, maybe not surprisingly, no, he did not. And yet, so he found it okay to do it to me. So there's a sense, is a black preacher or pastor on the same level as a white pastor or a white scholar and so forth and so on. And so there feels like there's a, again, this is all anecdotal, like a freedom to question the theology of a Black pastor or a Black leader in the church.

So that's one that came up in terms of a microaggression. Or what I wear, if I'm wearing an authentically African piece of garb as clothing to preach in, there are individuals who've looked at me as like, wow, what is that? And why are you wearing that? And so, and some days I intentionally do it because that's a part of my own differentiation to say, no, this is who I am. This is part of who God created me to be. And so, those are some examples of things

that I've experienced being in some predominantly white spaces. Do you have any other examples? I'm curious. Like, what other microaggressions people do? Yeah. So there's one where back maybe about five, six years ago, when there was a, we had a lot of the police shootings, I decided to do a message on the irrationality and sinfulness of racism.

This is partly on me. So I talked about racism, but I'm typically an extemporaneous preacher. So I have my outline, I have my notes. But this time I made sure that I manuscript the entire message. And I spoke from the entire, the manuscript as opposed to being more extemporaneous. Here's the reason why, that I recognize that there are people in the congregation who would

view my extemporaneous preaching as high-level emotion, and I'm talking about a highly emotional issue with high emotion and they would view that as the angry black man. And so I made sure that I manuscript the entire message and I basically preached the message from very controlled, very kind of like in the pocket, as opposed to being emotional, because I recognized that it could be construed as, oh, why is Marvin so angry? Why is Marvin so angry over this issue?

And I wanted to make sure that I maintained And I wanted to make sure that I maintained a level of equilibrium so that the message could be heard. The following Sunday, a man came up to me and said, I know you got a lot of emails, I know you got a lot of text messages from that particular message. And I said, Pete, I didn't get one email, I didn't get one message from anyone in the congregation. And he thought that was very strange. And then he said, I wonder if you didn't get any messages

from people is because you have basically earned the right to speak like that. He said, had you preached that message five years ago, when you or when you first came, people probably would have tuned you out and left the church because of the very reasons we were talking, that I mentioned that I would be, it would be viewed as an, as you know,

I would be viewed as an angry black man. And, and they probably would not have been able to take that. And so being able to live among the people, get the smell of the sheep on me, allowed me to preach that message in a way that I hopefully honored God, as well as expressed my own experience as a black man dealing with racism,

as well as leading the congregation to think differently about the issues of race, and particularly the relationship with policing in our society. So those are, again that that's Something maybe I was in my own head but but but I don't think so because there were individuals Afterwards who said, you know, even police officers in our congregation said Marvin. I would love to take you on a ride So that you can see

What we do so that the fear or the anxiety or the tension that you have, we can allay that because we're trying to do our job and doing our job well. And I mentioned in the message, 99% of the police officers that I know and who do the job, they do it well and they do it according to the standard that's been set. That's one of the issues that I dealt with that came up in my ministry here at Trinity. This has came, the question came to me

as you're talking at the very end there, you're, and I know, so you can't speak for all all black men. So this is you know your individual experience, but like there you mentioned like this in you know, maybe the anxiety you might have when you get pulled over by a cop or drive by a cop is that that's fairly common among black men in particular. And given what you just said about most cops are good cops, it's not a big deal, would you say that that's a legitimate anxiety or do you see that as projecting upon cops something that's not there?

Yeah, I can't speak for, I dare not speak for all black men, yet there are many in my circle who would probably feel some level of anxiety based on you don't have to necessarily be doing anything wrong for that anxiety to you know to show up uh there are individuals who have been stopped just because, whether it's profiling or simply, whether you're driving or you're walking or you're in a crowd. I just know that from my circle, parents have given their sons in particular the talk.

When you are driving, make sure if you're ever stopped, you're respectful, you honor the police officers, you keep your hands at two and ten, and you don't do anything that would give anyone a reason to do anything nefarious. And so all the people in my circle, most parents have had that conversation with their sons. Now, again, can't speak for every black person, every black man, but I do know that there is some level of anxiety when there is some level of interaction with police officers.

And I want to go back and clarify, my question could have sounded like I was implying that it's projection. But the reason why I ask is because I think almost if not every black man in particular that I've talked to says they've actually have experienced some kind of profiling being pulled over for no reason. So that there's legitimate reason to have that anxiety. It's not just, oh, I heard cops can be bad and I'm going to project that on them. Though they have actually had experiences that lie behind the anxiety. So,

it's kind of a legit thing. So, yeah. When I was in California 40 years ago, I was teaching at a small Bible college. We probably had maybe two black people at the college. I mean, and it was, you know, lots of actually a lot of Koreans, Hispanics. And so it wasn't just all white, but we had one or two black people. And I used to drive a 1992, oh, what was it? Some big old, I'm trying to think of the car. Was it some kind of sedan? I mean, it looked like a drug dealer car.

And the shocks were out in the back. So the back was lowered. It looked like I was carrying a dead body in the car. Never been pulled over. Never been pulled over. And I had this thing where if I went on a trip, I would just loan it out to a student. And this one trip I went on, I loaned it out to a black student.

And he drove me down to LAX. He drops me off. I found out later he got pulled over 45 seconds later. I'm like, how to be kidding. No 45 seconds. He was pulling out. It was like within, he was still at LAX and he got pulled over by a cop. And again, it's like, he could say, yeah, but what about this? What? I don't know. All I know is I drove the thing for five. it was a Crown Victoria, a 1992 Crown Victoria. And in five years, literally, I never got pulled over. And within a minute, this dude got pulled over. And again, I think that is, you know, it's a reality.

It's a reality that exists in our world. You know, again, in teaching the whole idea of self-differentiation, you can easily become, again, I don't know his response to that. Was it, you know, was it? He kind of left the response. I mean, he was like, yeah, clearly I got pulled over because that's black, but he was like laughing.

I mean, he was like, he had a really good attitude, at least externally. I mean, maybe internally, he was really scared. I don't know. That's a good question. Now that, you know, that was years ago. So I didn't even think about like, Hey, what was that really like for you? You know, like, I was like, Oh, he kind of laughed it off and, you know, joked around with students and stuff. But, and I don't think I, it was, I don't think it was a, he was harassed or anything, but just the fact that he got pulled over when I've never been pulled over and maybe it's coincidence. I don't think I don't think it was a he was harassed or anything But just the fact that he got pulled over when I've never been pulled over and maybe it's coincidence. I don't know Well, again, it's it's part, you know, it it doesn't have to turn into something that is that is Significantly, you know horrible. I mean it can be like yeah, he can laugh it off

But but I would imagine that something internally was raised up in him. Some level of anxiety was raised up in him. And how we deal with that anxiety, how we approach it can determine whether, you know, what happens in the next minute, the next two minutes, the next three minutes. And where there is a lack of emotional regulation, it can turn into something that just, it would not turn out good. So, yeah.

Yeah. You mentioned tokenism. What does that feel like when people aren't being at all like negative towards you, if like a better terms, but it's almost like there's, there could be almost like an over the top, maybe pandering or paternalistic, you know, like, could there be like almost an obnoxious celebration that we have a black pastor, you know, we're the cool kids in town.

Do you ever, you ever experienced that? And what does that, what does that feel like? Yeah, yeah. Again, it is, it is, are you, is the person accepting me for my authentic self or is a person accepting me because it's the skin I'm in and it is a novelty. You know, the interesting part is the novelty wears off when a person does differentiate and say, hey, that is what you're doing and what you're saying is not, number one, is inauthentic. Number two, it really is a microaggression.

For instance, when there was a weekend where, I can't remember all of the situation, but there was a black man, I think it was the Albury case where he was killed running through a community in Atlanta. And then the bird watcher, something Christian, he was called, a white woman called the police on him and saying that this man is harassing me and that was never the case. And so there was a lot of tension. And on our staff, that morning, it was just a horrible weekend. I just felt the weight of that moment. And we went on with our staff meeting like nothing ever happened.

And I kind of felt a little bit of maybe a little bitterness because we've been doing life together, we've been doing ministry together for all these years. And no one said, hey Marvin, I know that this must feel weighty and heavy. Is there anything I can do to pray for you during this time? I got a text message from someone who's not a part of our church, not a part of our staff, who said, hey, I just want you to know that I'm standing with you and standing for you. I know that this must hurt. And so in that moment, I felt like the right thing to do was to, if this was a good relationship,

was to say, I just wanna check in on you. Just wanna check in on to see how you're doing. So I sent the message to everyone saying that how come no one actually said anything. And that was a moment of differentiation, if you will. And then everyone began to say, Oh, are you okay? Are you okay? As well, it's too late now. I really would have appreciated something earlier as opposed to you responding when I said something. I think when talking about the issue of race,

talking about the issue of multi-ethnicity, talking about the issue of not just tolerating one another but celebrating one another. I think in moments of those, that kind of differentiation, I think the tokenism goes away and then I think people began to say, you should have just stayed in the corner and not said anything because when you did not talk about the, the, the bigger issues, everything seemed to be okay. But when the moment you start talking about the issue of, everything seemed to be okay. But when the moment you start talking about the issue of race or talking about the issue

of multi-ethnicity, talking about the issue of celebration versus toleration, that's when you kind of cause anxiety in us. And so I think there's a sense where when a person begins to differentiate, tokenism goes away and then people have to deal with the authenticity of the moment. What are the facts? What are the issues that we need to deal with in terms of race, in terms of whether it's sexuality or other things as well? It does feel like the person is not looking at me as my authentic self,

as Marvin Williams, but someone who is a black pastor that we get to hold up in kind of this, this is our shiny new toy. That was in the first part of ministry. It's not even an issue now because I love the people and the people love me and we have a really good relationship. So how did you take them from where they were to where they are now, to where there's minimal, say tokenism, there's probably a lot fewer microaggressions.

Is this something you actively had to teach your congregation? Or was it just them getting to know you as a person for many, many years that all the superficial stuff wears off and now they love and respect Marvin for who he is? I think it's a combination of both. It is teaching the Scripture. It is line by line, as we talk about the scripture, as we teach the book of James and James 2, we get a chance to talk about those things. We get a chance to talk about why racism is sinful and irrational. Over the years, we've done that. But then also, the consistency of living among the people, the consistency of discipling

people, the consistency of showing up as my authentic self and not feeling like I have to, I have to compromise who God has created me to be. And I think when people see that, I think it gives them an opportunity to be their authentic selves as well, to actually ask questions. I had a gentleman to ask me about three years ago, after I had been there 11 years, can you tell me what it's like to be an African American in a predominantly white church. Like this is after 11 years, and he finally asked the question. And prior to that, he probably would not have asked that question, but I think because he got to know me

and I got to know him, he was able to ask that question and not feel embarrassed by it, but to actually say, I know you well enough now to be able to ask that question. I wish he had asked it earlier, and yet we had a great conversation around that. So I think it's a combination of both. I think it's a combination of the teaching, being true to Scripture, and then being true to who I am and living among the people and loving the people well enough so they know that I am, if I say hard things, if I give hard teachings,

it's not because I'm angry, it's not because I have an agenda, it truly is because I love them and I desire God's best for them. I think sometimes, for at least some white people, if I can speak on behalf of some white people, you know, especially post-20, well post-2020, post say 2014 with Trayvon Martin and obviously Ferguson, I mean like it's, there's just like nervousness about like saying something wrong in the race conversation. Like what if I ask a question that's offensive? What if I, you know, should I say black or African-American and when do I say what?

And what if I say something stupid? And so sometimes we just don't, out of fear of perpetuating race or racism or not knowing how to enter the race conversation, we just kind of shrink back and like, oh, I'm just not going to say anything, you know. I've had to just say, you know, I'm just gonna be authentic and honest and kind and also be like, hey, I've got lots of blind spots, ignorances, can you help me out here? I don't know. And just say, if I say something that's offensive, please correct me.

Like I want to grow my- I think what you're saying, Preston, is the best route is instead of saying, you know, I, I know a lot and to try to sound like you, you know, a lot or you're, you're smart on this particular issue. You've read a number of books on this issue. The best thing to do is, Hey, listen, I want to let you know upfront. I want to get to know you a little bit better. I want to talk about this issue in a way that's intelligent, but also compassionate.

I want to talk about this issue truthfully, but also in a compassionate way. And so I am going to say some things that are probably really, really dumb, or you might consider a microaggression. You might consider races or you know, like you're so articulate, like, oh no, don't say that word. No, don't say that. Wait, wait, okay. Explain that a little more. Why? Why is that? So why, why is it that black people

are articulate and white people are never, that word is never used among, you know, among, for the most part, among white people. But among black people, it is, you don't know how to talk. And so because you don't know how to talk, when you finally find someone who talks, quote unquote, who talks white, you're articulate. That is one of those microaggressions. And again, I got that early on.

He is so articulate. And I'm saying, please do not say that. Just because I've never heard you say that with other individuals. And so being able to say, like I am going to say some things and I hope we can laugh about them. And I really want you to,

I really want there to be a symbiotic relationship where I am learning from you, you're learning from me, and maybe we can walk this road together and challenge one another. But I think when we show up in authentically, that's when I think it opens the door for arrogance. It opens the door for I'm perfect. I know all of this.

I think it hurts the relationship. But what you just said, hey, I'm gonna make some mistakes. I'm gonna probably make a lot of mistakes. But I would hope that you would show up embodying Jesus in this moment with both grace and truth. Telling me the truth about myself, but also doing it graciously and with a sense of winsomeness that I think is super, super important.

Yeah. I'm curious, you know, 2020, so much is happening and there was, it seemed like some, I mean, a lot of conversations about race that were opening up. It's a little bit embarrassing that it takes, you know, several killings to say, hey, maybe we should start talking about race. But there were some good conversations, there were some bad conversations, there were some heated conversations, there were some unhelpful conversations, but there were conversations and there were some really good ones happening. From my vantage point, it seems like those started to kind of die down after 2020. Is that your perception or do you feel like we as a church have progressed very helpfully since 2020 in talking about race in healthy ways? Or do you feel like

we've kind of gone back to kind of where we were pre-2020? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, it does. It does. I think some of the conversations have died down with the advent of getting rid of DEI. And again, I think it's helpful. But across the board now, you have a lot of organizations actually rolling back some of the things that they've done, whether it is diversity, equity, and inclusion programs, or at least conversations. Now that we've had a black president, he's no longer in office. Now that we have a different person in office, we now don't have to talk about those issues because it's not a problem.

So I think we have seen some of it die down. And I think there's not as much energy in talking about issues of race and inclusion and multi-ethnicity and diversity as during the time of 2020. And I don't know the reasons, I don't know all the reasons for that. We've made a lot of progress and so let's just stick with that. Or the fact it is very, very difficult. It's very difficult to unlearn some things and then to learn some new things, learning how to exist with, not just exist,

but to celebrate one another. It's a very difficult thing to do. It's easy to talk about. It's very difficult to begin to change your life around issues of diversity and inclusion and multi-ethnicity. Check your phone. Who are the last contacts?

Who are the people that you're spending the most time with? And who are the individuals in the last 30 days that you've called? If everyone in your contact list in the last 30 days have just looked like me, that is I'm talking about myself, Marvin Williams, then you are not really practicing diversity as a spiritual habit. If everyone in your contact list over the last 30 days looks like Preston Sprinkle talking to you now, but yet verbally I say I am for diversity, equity, and inclusion in the body of Jesus. We look, see in heaven there's going to be a throng of people from different walks of

life, different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different tribes and tongues, then I have an aspiration, but not an actualization of that spiritual habit. I think diversity should be a spiritual habit, just like fasting, just like prayer, just like simplicity, just like silence and solitude. And yet it has to be intentional because left to our own devices, I will default to people who look like me, sound like me, and live like I do. Versus the intentionality and consistency of being with people who are different than I am and to learn from them. from them. So you've mentioned DEI a few times. This apparently has become a hot button issue in politics. I honestly don't know. I've never been through a DEI training. I don't really know what's happening. I just see people using this as a really negative thing. And I just, I don't know, maybe it is, I don't know.

But I was part of a, I helped produce a study Bible called the upside down kingdom study Bible. And one of the fundamental principles is that we're gonna have ethnic and sex diversity among the authors. Like we tried to get, you know, 50% men, 50% women, roughly we tried to get, you know, no one ethnicity would be more than 50% of the authors. So we really worked hard to make it diverse. And for me, this is a theological, this is a profoundly theological issue, right? I mean, I'm not...

Ephesians 2, right? All the plays, yeah. I mean, we're going to be... Yeah, God's on a mission to create a multi-ethnic church and He's going to win in the book of Revelation when we're all singing in different tongues and languages and everything. So, for me, it's like, it's not even... I didn't even think about, didn't cross my mind, the political aspect of it. But now the Bible has been called the DEI Bible, the woke Bible, all these things. They came for your head. I saw that. They came for your head on that. So I saw some of like, you're a woke and it's like, it like, like they really did direct try to drag you on that. So

Oh, it's, it's all over the place. I don't, I don't, it's for me, this is, that's just Tuesday. I mean, it's like, I, all I have to do is go online or what's the latest, you know, Twitter account with some fish head profile making fun of me or something? Whatever. But it was like, oh, wow. So they just read this through a political lens. That's just interesting.

But then it caused me to think, like, I'm coming at it from a theological angle. People are projecting some kind of political secular lens on it. I'm curious. So how would you articulate the difference between what a secular political movement, like what's behind their desire for say DEI versus a more theological passion for diversity? It can't be the same thing, right? versus a more theological passion for diversity. It can't be the same thing, right? But I mean-

Yeah, and again, I think you mentioned it. You're looking through a theological lens and you're seeing that this is germane to what it means to be in the body of Jesus. This is a no-brainer, if you will, for Christians, so for those who follow Jesus. And so that lens is very, very different than a political lens.

Political lens is who has the power. You know, again, you talk about the upside down kingdom, it is the marginalized that Jesus says has the power and not those who have the actual power. And so you have this sense of, with coming from a political sense, who has the power, who's at the table, and there have been years and years of oppression and suppression.

Now it's time for us to turn the tables so that those who are oppressed, and this is partly true of the political lands, those who are oppressed can easily now become the oppressors. And that is not what we see. That's not what we are after. And so now there is the politicization of, we now want you to feel guilty about all the harm that you've caused in oppressing one ethnic group.

But again, coming from a theological point of view, this is part of what it means to be in the kingdom of God. If we don't frame it that way, you can be viewed as someone who is politicizing the gospel, who is a woke theologian, who is not orthodox in your thinking. And so, even if you frame it that way, you still have people looking through a political lens as opposed to a theological lens. And so I think it's so important to keep the theological, the biblical lens out front and frame it that way before talking about that other stuff. And I think there's so, another difference I see is like, and I don't know if this is

what's behind secular DEI programs or whatever, but there could be that kind of like white savior, white guilt, white liberal paternalistic, like, oh, there's these less qualified people of color for this job, but we needed to include them anyway because we need diversity. Where a theological lens is the same spirit of God dwells all ethnicities. I don't need to lower the bar to get some black scholar. There's plenty of brilliant black scholars that oftentimes are left out of white spaces because they're not white. And maybe it's intentional, maybe unintentional, whatever, but I'm like, no, the gifts are spread equally among all people.

So I'm not lowering some standard. Almost every author has a PhD that contributed to the Bible. It's not like I'm like, you know, stooping down to include people that don't have the skill set to be included otherwise. So No, that could be. And there are, you know, on either side, there are individuals who, in order to fill a spot or a quota, if you will, we have to find someone who is, we're not trying to find someone less qualified,

but we want to have someone who has the skin I'm in to fill that position, to say that we do have diversity. And I would say you're absolutely right. There are black scholars all over the place who should be sitting at theological tables and are not. And again, I don't know all the reasons, whether it is Latin American theologians, whether it is Asian theologians, Asian preachers, Latin preachers should be sitting at those tables and not to fill a quota, but because, as you mentioned, they have the Spirit of God living inside of them and they have something to say that's profoundly important to the

rest of the body of Jesus. And another, I guess, difference is the sort of... And this is where I would just simply disagree with my more right-wing politicized crowd, the anti-woke crowd, is like I actually see benefit for interpreting the Bible with having multi-ethnic perspectives where a lot of, I think, my right-wing friends would say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You can have all white people as long as they're following actually Jesus, whatever, and they're interpreting the Bible correctly. That's all that matters. And I'm like, no, we do bring our past, our ethnicity, our gender, our socioeconomic status, different cultural,

that actually does influence our interpretation so that a multi-ethnic community of interpreters is going to be better, assuming they're all good interpreters, than simply a mono-ethnic perspective. So, but they're gonna say, no, it doesn't matter. I'm like, well, it does. Well, and you're stepping all in

Esau McCauley's, you know, Reading While Black. Just bringing the experience, you know, again, as he writes, he's bringing his experience, he's bringing an orthodox interpretation to Scripture, but he's also bringing this other lens that is just as important to see how black people experience the Bible in very different ways. How do we speak truth to power without calling it wokeism, without calling it, you know, non-Orthodox, you know, whether it is Esau McCauley or the late great Desmond Tutu, who, again, spoke truth to power. But again, loving God, loving the scriptures, when looking at other people's experiences,

we can't discount them. You can look at CT and other organizations that have done kind of evaluations that you have the Black church. The Black church has always been viewed, again, among some as liberal. And yet, all of the evaluations say that you can look at black churches and probably more Orthodox in their theology and

yet they have this the black church has this other aspect of how do we actually Bring the gospel to bear on social concerns on social ills on You know schools that are are are marginalized are marginalized or other things in the black community, the gospel has always spoken to those things. I think the gospel is inherently not just spiritual, but it is emotional and physical. It is inherently that. And so, I think we see in the black church how the gospel actually speaks to those issues. And so, that there is a more well-rounded gospel and not just when you die, you go to heaven. Well, is it partly because it's just not an option, right? I mean, when you're living

in a context, grew up in a context where social concerns were not some idea out there, but were part of the fabric of your day-to-day life, then you just naturally start asking, how does the gospel apply to this? I've got a lot of, turned this way, but like a lot of Palestinian friends in the West Bank and in Gaza. And for them, how does the gospel apply to justice? It's just not like they don't have to like think of that question. It's just in their bones, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, many parts of the world, you have friends in Nepal, same thing. I mean, there's,

to be a Christian in Nepal, it's, you know, small percentage, they're often persecuted and everything. And so, yeah, but for people that are living in a context where they're not having to ask those questions, it seems like it's, well, it's just easy to separate those questions. Yeah. I'm reminded of, and this is a while back, but the late Desmond Tutu, he spoke He spoke on the year anniversary of the terrorist attacks in the United States. And it was 2002. He starts off by identifying with the pain. So he's both pastoral and prophetic, identifying with the pain of those in America who have

dealt with the grief of the terrorist attack. And he does that. He says, God is with you and God loves you. But then he makes this slight turn and he says, for the first you understand fragility, you understand vulnerability. And he said, now understanding this, maybe you will now understand the vulnerability and fragility of our brothers and sisters, literally around the world who have to deal with, without water and without food and dealing with poverty on a day to day basis.

This one event showed you your vulnerability. You've always been vulnerable and fragile, but you're just now understanding it with this attack. Now maybe you can understand what our brothers and sisters around the world are dealing with on a daily basis. He says until we fight the terrorism of poverty and the other ills, then we won't fully be able to fight these kind of terrorist attacks. And taking money away from investing in weapons of mass destruction to investing in the ills of society that causes fragility

and vulnerability and marginalization around the world. Now again, in a very, very kind of a velvet glove kind of way, he said, I'm with you America, I pain, I hurt with you, but also he's now speaking truth to power to say, this is a reality and maybe now we can raise our eyes to brothers and sisters who are dealing with marginalization and fragility around the world.

I love it. I bet some people probably took that as him like celebrating or, you know, 9-11 or something or saying it was a good thing. But if you listen to him, he's probably the most pastoral voice. His voice never changed. I mean, it was almost as if, you know, a grandfather was sitting talking to his grandchildren. And I love the tonation of how he talked about both the pastoral part, but also the prophetic part. And, and, and, and you could tell he loved the people, even as he was sharing this. I got a comment from a patron. We got some patrons tuning in here. This is a really good

observation. This person says, it's so interesting how these communication principles are applicable not only to the, in the context of racial differences, but of any human differences, gender, single, married, I would even add sexuality too. Obviously all these differences don't perfectly map on each other, there's differences. But would you say like anybody who has some kind of minority experience in a majority context that the stuff you were talking about earlier

with communication, that a lot of these crossover? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're going to, and I suppose it depends on the context and it depends on the person, but I would imagine the majority black and brown, it would be true. But I would also say if you are Asian and you're coming to the United States and you're engaging U.S. for the first time, there is an anxiety that everyone who deals with that, and so what does it look like to differentiate? What does it look like to remain calm in the midst of reactivity? So I think it's a principle, even though my study is

regarding black men, I think the principles of self-different differentiation really do cross over to to any and every culture that any and every culture as well as as well as gender, gender as well. Okay, before we go, big picture, best pieces of advice for listeners who are part of the majority. Let's just let's just say let's just say white listeners when they have a small percentage of people who are not white in their context. What can white people as the part of the majority do to make that context more thriving for people who are, let's just say, ethnic minorities. Yeah. I would, again, have a conversation with that person in their context or individuals in that context

and just simply ask questions. Ask questions. Is there anything in our context that you see that does does not include a kind of a thoughtful idea on diversity or is there something that we have done in this context that has caused anxiety in you that has either caused you to enmesh not to say anything at all, kind of give away your identity or even withdraw. And if the person is honest, and just say, I really do need you to be honest, there's, tell us because we don't know what we don't know. So I think that asking the question, is there anything in our context that has caused levels of reactivity or anxiety In you and your family For that for that reason in this in this context

So I think the I think the asking the question you're asking the question and then getting to know the person a little bit better I think is is is is is important and then, I think is important. And then for, I think for individuals, you know, if there's someone who's done work in this space to invite them in, to invite them in and say, you have carte blanche to understand some of the things that we're doing and how maybe some of that could be a barrier to individuals in our context. Like one of the things that we've done, and we've not done this like we beat the bully pulpit, like half of our elders are ethnic.

So half are white and half are ethnic. And so when you look at our page or you look at our elders, the leadership is definitely diverse and I think it warrants that. So again, beginning in leadership spaces could be very helpful, not tokenism, but truly qualified individuals to serve in the body of Jesus.

I, uh, Derwin, I think you know Derwin, right? Derwin Gray. Yep, Derwin Gray. Yep. Um, he said, you know, it's such a high value at the church that, uh, you will, he says you will never see on stage. Well, you will always see on stage the kind of diversity, uh, age, socioeconomic, even ethnic, um, sex, you sex, you always see on stage the kind of church we are trying to embody. And they do.

You would never see all white people, all young people, whatever, on stage. Yeah. It modeled what you hope to get. Marvin Williams, this has been fun. Thanks so much for the conversation. Really appreciate you and we should do it again sometime. Absolutely. Thanks a lot, Preston. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast.

Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus Podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day, and together we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's Word in a way that you can really understand it. If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Haven, and as long as I can remember, I have had different curiosities and thoughts

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