Theology in the Raw - Navigating Faith and Bisexuality: Kainan Seth Joubert

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Kainan is a covenant member at Fielder Church in Grand Prairie, Texas, where he serves as a commissioned shepherd, Bible teacher, and church planting resident. He earned his BA in Communication Theory from Dallas Baptist University, and is currently pursuing a Master of Theological Studies at Grimké Seminary in their School of Urban Ministry. Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology Raw. My guest today is my friend Kanan Jubert, who is a covenant member at Fielder Church in Grand Prairie, Texas, where he serves as a commissioned shepherd, Bible teacher, and church planting resident. He earned his BA in communication theory from Dallas Baptist University and is currently pursuing a Master of Theological Studies at Grimke Seminary in their School of Urban Ministry. I had asked Kanan to come on the show because he experiences bisexual attractions. And I realized I have not talked to somebody in a long time about this specific topic.

So I just had Kanan to come on and share his journey as he wrestles with his faith and his sexuality. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Canaan Jubber. Canaan, it's so good to see you. Thanks for being a guest on theology in the raw. This is long overdue. Why don't I start just with the main question. When did you first experience bisexual attraction and what was that like for you? Yeah, I mean first brother, thank you.

It's been fun getting to know you over the past year. It feels like it's longer, but you know. It feels longer, yeah. Yeah, this is wild. I don't know, it feels weird. I'm just here. So, but yeah, I experienced as long, not as long as I can remember. I do remember the first time I had a crush on a girl.

I was like eight years old and I was like, ah, she's pretty. I have butterflies in my tummy when I look at her, you know, that type of thing. And then I was very confused, like kind of a few months later when I was watching Smallville with my mom and The guy who plays Clark Kent and like Superman on there and I was like he's also very pretty and I filled butterflies in my tummy and that's weird, so I kind of just ignored it and Didn't think anything of it But my story does deal with like being exposed to pornography just through general curiosity for the human body. I found out about sex through a human body book that my parents, they told me, hey, just wait on reading that until you're like eight, or excuse me, until I was eight, but until

we have that conversation with you. Don't read the last chapter of the human body book. It was always about reproduction. I found out about sex and immediately kind of like hit it and was just like, I'm gonna not tell anybody about this. And then I went looking up on the computer and then found videos and from there, it was still me being curious,

but then it led to an addiction to pornography and then I ended up experimenting with some other kids in the neighborhood. There were no girls my age. So that's what complicated things, because that would have been my preference. But there were only other boys that were my age. So that's where things get a little walking. Were you raised in a Christian home? Like, did you have a faith commitment through all this?

Oh, yeah. So my parents, they're... It was funny, I was listening to one of your Patreon Q&As, you were talking about Charismatic Theology. My mom grew up Charismatic Catholic. Oh, wow. There's a book somewhere on one of my mini shelves about... There's a Pentecostal movement in the Catholic Church that's over on the stack over here to my right. But she grew up Charismatic Catholic, and But she grew up charismatic Catholic. And my dad grew up Catholic, but comes from a long line of Baptists, like missionary Baptist pastors and musicians. The Juvarts are kind of well known, I think, in that space. So

for them, they ended up, they met each other in college. My dad wasn't a Christian. And my mom, she met him and my dad was trying to holler at her and she was like, you don't believe? You're not going to date me until you know Christ. And the Lord had impressed on her, hey, that's your husband. And she's like, no, he's not a believer. So he ends up getting saved at a Carlton Pearson rally. And I think Jesse Duplant is like all the faith, word of faith people, they were preaching

and my dad got saved. He met Christ and my mom has been a Christian since she was like four or five, I think, got baptized when she was seven, kind of in the tent revivals. And so, they end up, they get married after four years of dating and then they end up joining a charismatic church in, I think it was Elton or Oberlin, Louisiana. My dad's from a small town out there, mom's from Lake Charles, southwest Louisiana. So if people are wondering, what is he? I'm Creole, Louisiana Creole.

And then they ended up moving to Baton Rouge. And my dad was on staff at Bethany Christian School, which is a part of Bethany Church out there. And so they were baptistic, but then the pastor, while he was in the SBC, got filled with the spirit, started speaking in tongues and the deacons kicked him out. They fired him. And so he started Bethany Baptist Church down the road where they were doing like, you know, Baptist ecclesiology and also Holy Spirit stuff.

They're like, hey, let's, let's smuggle these Bibles into China and the Middle East. Let's go to the 1040 window and we're going to lay hands so you can get the Holy Spirit." And that was kind of the space. They were planting churches. We moved out to Texas, the DFW area, when I was like two or three. It was September of 2002, so I was coming up on three years old and we just joined a church plant. My parents ended up leading there.

My mom was like part-time staff. My dad was a junior high minister while also working in public education. And then he joined another church as youth pastor. After that, we helped plant a church out of that previous church plant. And then we joined a church merger that was a younger black Baptist church and an older white Pentecostal church that merged on the west side of Dallas. And I got saved at that church when I was 11, where I felt the, you know, my story has a lot of like, with the sexual experimentation, suicidal ideation. I recently found that I'm an Enneagram 4, not an 8. So there's a lot there that makes so much sense now. Where I felt intellectually lonely as a child. And it was very, very dark for me. And I met Jesus.

Part of it was, there's a thing on my wall, some life mapping with the church plant residency I'm in, and was trying to pinpoint, like, who was that person that was very pivotal in my faith journey? And it was like, I had people, but the Lord found me. And I was looking for Him the whole time in the books and the reading. I taught myself to read at three. My parents put on phonics. And then I came to them, read a book, and they were like, we didn't read that book to you.

How'd you, oh, you figured this out on your own. And so, was really advanced, but still socially my age. And so that was very complicated and confusing. But then I met Jesus at 11, and I felt the conviction of my sin where I was like, I don't want to do those things that I was doing. And by His grace, He freed me from suicide ideation, where I was like, I want to die, I don't want to live. What was the cause of the suicide ideation? Do you know what was wrestling with your, did it have to wrestling with your sexuality?

Not really. I was just angry. I figured out what racism was when I was like six. I was in class and there was a teacher I had, she was a white teacher. And I didn't really have the language of white and black. I'm Creole, so I have family that looks like your family. I have family that looks like a traditional black family. I have family that looks like a traditional black family. I have cousins that are half Asian. You know, my grandmother on my dad's

side is half Native American. So I'm used to like multi-ethnic spaces, but then coming to DFW, it wasn't like that. So I'm in class and I just see this white teacher and she's consistently mistreating the kids that are darker. And I'm confused, but I don't have language of like that's racism or colorism, I'm six. So I'm feeling these feelings. And I'm like, that lady's being mean, but she looks like my aunt. And she's being mean to these people

that look like my cousins. What's going on? Now knowing that's what it was, but I just was angry at people. And then there was a lot of stuff I experienced with an education because of the school my dad was working at. It was the school where the lynching tree was in Mansfield, Texas, which was the last school district to integrate in the state of Texas. And he dealt with a lot of

pushback in the district. And so for me, what I saw or heard was a lot of adults in leadership and authority that didn't like my parents and they would say things because they're black or because they're minorities. And I'm confused because I'm like, that's not what I'm being taught. That's not what I'm seeing at home. So the suicidal ideation, I think, came a lot just from that of like, I'm feeling different and othered. I just want to fit in I don't and

I'm just mad at the world and I don't know what to do with this anger and this pain that I'm experiencing But it was never really stuff that was directed at me. I'm seeing it happen to other people So I think some of that there just like I just want to die I just don't want to live but I'm like 10. Yeah. And so that's the, that's the confusing part. Did your sexuality present challenges to your faith or when did those two categories, your faith, your sexuality start to interact with each other? If I can put it like that. Yeah.

Um, and this is, and this is, it's interesting because when I was 14, that's when I initially thought, that's when I thought I had the first legit crush on a guy. And then after remembering, oh yeah, I was that kid that was with my mom and she's shopping for bras. And I'm, you know, so I'm looking around and I'm like 9, 10 and I'm curious. But also when I'm with my dad getting underwear, I'm looking at the underwear packaging. But I didn't have language for that until a few years ago. And you're totally keeping this, nobody, you didn't talk to anybody about this at this point, right?

Not really. My parents were aware because they're like, OK, he's looking at pornography. And they didn't know about the experimentation stuff until I was like 15. So this was like well after I'd come to faith and began to talk to my parents about experimentation stuff until I was like 15. So this was like well after I'd come to faith and began to talk about my story with people

at our church, but we were still in kind of the charismatic world and they didn't have a lot of the language, which is where Christian hip hop will eventually play. It'll come into play in a second. For middle school me and then later, is it was, I'm like, I really liked doing the stuff I was doing with those boys, but I didn't do anything else after I came to Jesus. So I'm still having these longings. And it was purely sexual. But then when it came to the more emotional side of things, that was when I was 14 and a guy I was really close with at school, it was a kind of a group of four of us.

There was just one day that I guess he looked really attractive and my mind reacted a certain way, and my body did as well, and I was confused. I went home later and I'm like doing homework, whatever, I go to sleep and I'm laying down and I'm like thinking in my head, am I gay? But I couldn't verbalize it because I still was having crushes on these girls. That like, you know, I'm still having those attractions but I didn't have language of, okay, one, you know,

it's not sinful to experience same sex attraction. It is a result of sin being in the world. I do believe it's a broken desire that God didn't originally intend in his design, but I didn't have that language yet. I'm 14, horny, confused, and I had just come to faith three years ago and didn't really have healthy discipleship until I was about 15 or 16 years old. And so I just remember laying in bed and I'm like distraught and I can't verbalize I'm gay because I wasn't and I'm not, but I didn't have that language. So I just ended up going to sleep, whatever, kind of forgot about it.

Freshman year was around a lot of older kids And they had some gay kids like in student council and stuff and I was kind of around them, but the things they were doing, which was just the licentious living, just living sinfully, I just was not about that. But then this whole time I'm still watching lots, lots of pornography where it's only men in the pornography, but then still feeling these things about women. There was a lot there. Yeah. I was going to ask about the porn. Was it towards the men or women? I was assuming both, but you're saying the porn part was strictly towards men? Can you unpack that at all? So this is where some of the race stuff eventually will come into play. But it was, I watched,

I guess, the straight porn. I'd watched that. And then once I found out about gay porn, and I didn't have the language of gay, I just knew that like, okay, there are couples where sometimes it's two men or two women, but I knew that that wasn't a part of God's plan. Just the way my parents taught me. When I found out what gay meant, I went look it up and I was like, oh, two men. Okay. And then from there, found out about gay pornography. And then I was curious and it was kind of that same thing, rabbit trail.

I'm like 10, 11 at this point, and this was right before I became a Christian and just was, I guess, just drawn towards that. And some of it I think is because of the, I think it was more heightened towards men because of the experimentation, which doing a lot of kind of like inner work and just praying and talking with people, journaling therapy past like four or five years, that has helped me realize like, oh, had it not been for the experimentation,

I think I just would have had a pretty level bisexual orientation or set of attractions, but it was heightened and very androphilic, very towards men for years. So we're really kind of the past year. That's why I've reached out to you initially. And it was like, Hey, do you have an episode on bisexuality? Because I was processing like, yo, I don't know what I'm doing.

Because when I go into a coffee shop, I don't see 10 hot people and five of them are guys, five of them are girls. I'm seeing 10 hot women and 10 hot men and it's 20 people I'm attracted to. So it's like double. And that's a whole, that's more recent, but before it was like primarily men. And I didn't know what to do with that because it was like, do I just, but I still like women, but then I'm not watching the porn. But then some of that was with wanting to honor women because I have two younger sisters.

And so I just was thinking like, well, I wouldn't want to do that type of stuff to somebody's daughter and still desire to wife and kids. But then I'm watching all of this, like men go at it with each other sinfully. And I'm just like, I'm thrown off. And when I was 14 though, my dad, he caught me looking at pictures or something I had on the school iPad and he was one of the principals at this school. And so he goes, he's like, hey, first of all, you need to stop because you're going to get me fired. Second of all, in this house, we serve the Lord. And while you are living under my roof,

you will not do these things that dishonor God, because I have to answer to God for how I lead this household, how I love your mom and you guys, and what I allow to go on in this household. I have to answer to God. And so when he did that, when I was like 14, that like something clicked. And I didn't stop per se,

but I was a lot more hesitant to go after these things. And that really helped me just realize like, oh no, this is serious. And then when I was 15, pursued a girl, but then still was liking guys, but I was more serious in my faith, was getting discipled, but then didn't have the language of, hey, I'm attracted to both men and women. I just was like, oh, I'm struggling with homosexuality.

And I actually was the kid who was struggling with what homosexuality is of the practice. I wanted to do the things I had done before. It wasn't just, I think guys are cute sometimes. It's like, no, I want to do what I was doing before, but I didn't have, how do I put this? I love those people to death. I'm still in relationship with some of those folks, but they were not theologically equipped

to kind of navigate the conversation, which was heartbreaking, but then it makes sense. Hyper charismatic, hey, if you read a lot, then you're gonna fall out of love with Jesus type stuff, kind of anti-intellectual, but we're from Louisiana. But then my mom and dad are both nerds and can easily get their PhDs. Cause they both have, my mom has two masters degrees

and it's like, oh, maybe I want to get my, my doctorate. I don't know. And she works in higher education. My dad's been an educator for 30 years. So it's, I'm around knowledge, but I want to get my doctorate. I don't know. And she works in higher education. My dad's been an educator for 30 years. So it's, I'm around knowledge, but I saw real faith. So I think now everything's starting to come into play. But I had essentially tried to for years, intellectualize my attractions, which was unhelpful because I'm trying to understand

why I like guys and girls the whole whole time I'm feeling these feelings, but then my outlet was porn and masturbation. Instead of, hey, I need to confess this to people. I need to bring this to the Lord. I just didn't have healthy formation until I got to college. Hey, friends, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming conference that I'll be speaking at in September of this year. It's called the Church at the Crossroads Conference, September 11th through 13th in Glen Ellyn, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. Rooted in scripture and led by Palestinian Christian leaders alongside pastors and peacemakers

from across North America, this conference invites American Christians to engage in honest reckoning, prophetic reflection and faithful action. I'll be speaking at the conference alongside others such as Shane Claiborne, Jamar Tisby, Muthur Isak and Gary Burge and many others. And they are offering theology and around, $20 off conference registration. Just go to churchatthecrossroads.com and enter TITR at the checkout. That's churchatthecrossroads.com. Enter TITR to get 20 bucks off of registration. See you there. I want to dig into your theological intellectual journey. First, I, first of all, I absolutely appreciate

your, just vulnerability and your honesty. And, and I hope people are okay with that. Oh, some people are, are don't experience Christian spaces where people are just very open with their stories. So they can kiss my big toe. That's where I'm at. They can kiss my big toe. What they gonna do? Fight me. can kiss my big toe. What they going to do? Fight me? I'm six foot two, two sixty. I'm built like a linebacker. And I'm Baptist. So I vote you out.

And you're Baptist so you know how to spar. Just, I'm curious about, you know, the topic. You know, I have not, same-sex sexuality, I've learned a ton about, bisexuality for like a better terms, is something that people don't talk too much about. Is this kind of the black sheep of the conversation a little bit. Your attraction to guys and girls,

is it kind of different? Is there like almost like an emotional intimacy attraction towards women and more just sexual towards men? When you describe it, it almost sounds like they're overlapping, but it seems a little different. Would that be right? I would say it was for a while up until, and this is like real time. This is the strangest thing to me. I

feel like I'm just here. I was literally was writing a piece I'm about to put on Substack where I'm just like, I'm just here. I don't know what I'm doing. God's just like, Hey, come on, I'm going to do something crazy. You want to take part? Sure. I'm going to save some kids. I get to pray for him. Like I'm, what happened about a month and a half ago, almost two months ago, I was meeting with my pastor and there were two questions that he posed to me, or really two statements. And I meet with him monthly and part of my seminary stuff,

but also he's been discipling me, coaching me, all that. And he said, there's two things, his name's Tony. He's a Puerto Rican man, which is a whole thing that I'm at this bilingual church now, because I had issues with Latino people growing up, and now most of my friends are Latino. But he said first, he said, you make friends very quickly and you go deep really fast. He said, consider why you do that. I think that's a gift that the Lord has given you, but also I think there's

a reason from your past that you need to process. So he told me that, and then that's where everything kind of spiraled in a good way. Found that I was a type four through a lot of introspection and just prayer and journaling reflection questions. I'll air it out. ChatGPT, as much as I don't like AI and the way people use it, I use it as a journal. And so not all the time, but what I'll do is put some information in. I said, hey, this is my theological bent. These are the things I experienced.

This is this, this, my personality types, all that. Don't always agree with me, but I need reflection questions around what just happened today. It would give me reflection questions. I go journal, pray, and then I put the stuff in and I'm looking like, I think it forgot that I'm, you know, reformed. And so, yeah, I'm not about that life. Or it said something about, oh, your dream man. And I was like, no, no, God says no. So, no. Like, so there's a lot of that that I'm having to, I'm not doing that much anymore, but I was just playing around with it and was like, let me see. And the Lord met me, I think, through that in some beautiful ways where I realized in

my search of all the reading and learning and all that, He was right there. Like I'm looking for Him in these words and these books, and then the whole time Jesus is the Word. And I'm like weeping like a baby when I'm like seeing chat GPT generate this. I'm like, okay. So it was that question. But then the other one Tony had told me, he said, stop thinking your feelings and feel them.

And when he said that, I had to sit with that. And like we met for about two hours. And then I had to go have a conversation with a friend who I'm real close with as a guy. And he was play punching me, typical, I guess this is some straight men show affection. He just goes and punches me on the shoulder type thing. My body got aroused. I was like, it's fine, it's playful. I don't think anything sexual about it, but my body reacted. I got an erection and I'm confused. So I had to go talk with him and process and he handled it with grace.

We're still good friends. Just hung out with him last week or I think we're gonna hang this, we can just catch up and stuff. But it was that where I realized I had to feel the weight of, I'm afraid that this friendship might die because there was a previous friendship I had about two years ago.

I think that's kind of around the time we met, that brother had crossed my boundaries in ways that I was just kind of unaware, just was emotionally unaware. There were some things I was grieving my grandmother's death. She'd been dead for about two years at that point, and she loved the Lord, but it was unexpected how she died. That guy crossed my boundaries, lots of physical touch, very inappropriate. I know now. I went to the elders at this previous church I was a part of, and unfortunately, they didn't really respond to me well because of the way they handled conflict at that church. I respect it, but I wanted to end the friendship or create distance.

They were like, no, go and pursue Matthew 18. So I did that. But this brother had sinister motives. And then I ended up cutting off the physical touch after a while. And it was, it was really bad. We're both in a terrible place, but he ended up going to the, some of the elders and lied to them about what happened. And I was put under church discipline

and they called it care and correction where I had to do four counseling sessions. And part of it was there was just confusion and the elders could not agree on kind of where the lines were crossed and blurred. And I think it was, some of it was healthy and then it became unhealthy. And there's this mix in the middle of where I had,

I was just confused, but I was open with them about my story. They knew, they were aware, but they just said I wasn't above reproach and I respect them for it and I agree with them there. But they mishandled the situation with that guy. And then when I was at the conference when we met in 2024, I had just essentially been, I guess, released from, I don't know how to describe it, but I wasn't under discipline anymore. I was greenlit for ministry again. I was able to serve. I'd step back from serving in the capacities I was in for about two months.

But I wasn't friends with that brother anymore. To be fair, I don't think he's a believer because he refused to reconcile. And not even like, I'm not trying to be friends with him, but he refused to reconcile. Then also, he's clearly not straight based on the things that he had done and was trying to push me to do. I'm like, hey, bro, I love you, but no. Then it was unfortunate, but I bring that up because that's where I went. That really scared me when all this stuff happened with my buddy more recently. And it's fine. He's good. He has not crossed my boundaries. And also he's straight, so there's that too. He's not trying to do stuff

to me. So that's been interesting also navigating friendships. I literally just told a buddy of mine who's a pastor at our church, we were hanging out this morning. I said, dude, I can't do the Billy Graham rule. Like I actually can't based off of, well, I have women in my life that I am close with. And I understand the optics of things, but the Billy Graham rule, like just verbatim, don't be with somebody opposite sex. It's great. But I'm also attracted to men. Not all men really is not, normally not straight men. And if they're married, that's just, anybody who's married is just kind of off my radar. But I'm like, yeah, that doesn't make sense. Now I do have wisdom.

I'm not going to like regularly disciple or some of the things I confess and need to confess. I'm not going to go to somebody who's same-sex attracted and confess that stuff to them. But that's what I have uniquely put in place to steward, not just my ministry and my doctrine, but my life. Because I've been hurt in the past and it's been unhelpful. I've been the unhelpful friend when I was in high school. Yeah. I mean, I think people can kind of gather you're a reader, you're a deeply intellectual person. This whole time, you know, it's been assumed that same-sex sexual relations are not a theological possibility for you.

Was that ever a journey? Did you look into an affirming view? Did you want that to be true? Did you, were you persuaded of that viewpoint at all? Or what did your theological, what has your theological journey look like? And we should also say you're very young too. I mean, you're still at the... Yeah. I'm 25. Now my students joke with me. I met with a student yesterday and this was the funniest thing at camp. And I got to get this tangent. He goes, he's like, so when were you born?

His name is Jaden. He was like, when were you born, Canaan? And I said, uh, you know, 19. He said, 19? You were born in the 1900s. And I was like, bro, I'm 25. I'm 10Z. He was like, how old were you at the turn of the millennium?

I was like, fam, I was a month and a half old. I was born in November. Like, where were you during 9-11? I don't remember. I wasn't conscious. I don't think, I didn't. I was born in November. Where were you during 9-11? I don't remember. I wasn't conscious. I didn't know I was alive. For me, I was 17. When it occurred, I had switched schools. I was in public school most of my life. I was in public school, then I ended up going to this charter school. I go to this charter school, it's predominantly white. I grew up in Arlington, Grand Prairie, Mansfield, Cedar Hill, Duncanville.

Those five cities in DFW are some of the most diverse. Arlington is, I think it's the second most diverse city. I actually know it's the most diverse city according to a recent study in Texas. Then UTA, one of the universities, is the sixth in the country. It's the most diverse. Then I think it's the second most diverse university in the state of Texas. And then UTA, one of the universities is the sixth in the country. It's the most diverse. And then I think it's the second most diverse university in the state of Texas. So what I'm used to is Muslims, my neighbors across the street are Nigerian, next door on both sides are Mexican. There's a Korean family down the street. So I'm used to diversity and not just for the sake of it like, oh, tokenism. Like, no, that's my life. Like, one, I never fit in because there's very few Creole people, like kind of around. But also I'm used to

this. And so for me, I switched to this predominantly white school. I get exposed. I was like doing Christian hip hop at the time. A friend of mine had I got the CD right here. I grabbed it from the car, but it's called Hotness. It has all of the 116 click their Man Up album. That was like at the pivotal time when I got that, when I was 13, that was the closest thing I got to discipleship was listening to CHH. Then looking up on YouTube, Triply and Leley and Lecrae and oh, they, some of them are pastors. Some of them have planted churches where they preach. I go listen to their sermons and then I find out about the conferences they were doing, like Legacy

Disciple. I found out about Jackie O'Perry. I found out about her and she's doing poetry and I listened to her, what was it called? My Life as a Stud. So I listened to that and I'm like, yo, wait, she's following Jesus and she's not straight. Hold on. What? So there's that. I find out about you probably the next year. I don't remember how, but I think I went to Mardale or some bookstore and I saw Living in a Great World.

And I don't remember when that was published, but I remember reading it and I was like, huh, cool. And I think I was like, huh, cool. And I think I was 16, but I had never read affirming arguments and switched to this brown and white school, was trying to date this girl. That fell through because she couldn't date, I couldn't date. I had no car because my parents were like, you're going to go sin if you go drive. And I'm like, I'm trying to go to church and get a job.

That's the two place I'm trying to go. I'm not trying to sin like that anymore. Well then go to youth camp, had a horrible experience. I remember there was this young lady who, we ended up like reconciling. It was fine. I was real good friends with her husband. We helped plant a church together when I was in college. But she had, I think she had called me stupid and she meant it.

And that's something for me. I think I had read somewhere, I forget where it is in the gospels, where Jesus says like, don't ever call somebody stupid, like Raka. And whatever that was, that I set off. And I was like, don't you ever call anybody stupid. And that was some stuff with my grandmother, because she was bilingual, struggled to read, but by God's grace, she asked for the Lord to give her understanding of the scriptures and she was able to read the Bible. Like, you know, miraculous. And so for me, I did not like that. So I popped off on her very, I shouldn't have done it like I did. I was like 16. I didn't know any better. One of her leaders,

who was an adult, and they were all Latino. So that's why I had issues with Latino people for years. She mishandled the conversation with me and was just very rude and dismissive. And I was feeling a tug towards ministry. I was serving in kids ministry. I didn't know anything about like, oh, the Lord's setting me apart for pastoral leadership. I didn't know that. I was just like, I want to kind of do what they're doing. But also I like this rap stuff and I really like dinosaurs and animals. Maybe I'll be a paleozoologist, I don't know. But then that happens, I'm like, I'm done. So I was like, hey, mom, dad, can we like, do I have to go to church this morning?

And they're like, get your butt in the car. So I get in the car and they're like, hey, you don't have to sit in the service, but you can sit in like the cafe and just read the scriptures. And so I read through Matthew, cause I was like, let me see if this Jesus stuff is like actually what it is and not this craziness I'm dealing with here. And then I'm at this probably white school and I was track captain.

I don't know why they let me be track captain, but I was track captain. And the coach at the time introduced me to this freshman. I was a junior going into junior year, this freshman who is trained, he was coming to our school and to kind of take a brevity, we both liked each other. There's this guy, um, expressed feelings for one another, probably like a month or two into our friendship. And then he approached me wanting to, Hey, you want to fool around type thing. And I was like, sure. And I'd stepped down from all the ministry stuff I was doing. I was like, the one thing you're not going to catch me is to be a hypocrite.

If I'm a sin, I'm a sin, but it's not going to be, hey, I'm serving and doing these things. So I stepped down from everything. Small groups I was leading, kids ministry stuff. I just, every Sunday would sit in the cafe and these college kids would come and minister to me. They would ask me questions, hey, what are you reading? And I'm like, I'm reading Matthew five. You know, blessed is this, but you know, what does this mean? So I would talk with them. And I know their names was Danny, it was Joy. Ricky would come over. There was this dude named Sean was the college pastor. Still, still tight

with him to this day. He's a teaching pastor at that church now. He's reformed charismatic. That's what my Baptist friend says, to save charismatic. But I remember the beautiful thing is, is they didn't know what was going on. They didn't ask me questions about sexuality, but they loved on me and they just would answer my questions. And I was like, why do we do this?

Or I was reading in First Timothy about First Timothy two women teaching, and I'm confused because I got women pastors was going on. Like, I'm asking these questions. Hey, why does this happen? Why did God tell the Israelites to kill these people? Like, I'm asking them questions and they know how to answer them. But then they also have genuine faith. And I read Matthew Vine's book, God and the Gay Christian. Do not recommend. I was very disappointed in it because what I felt in the gay affirming conversation was – and this is me at like 17 where I'm trying to fool around with this kid every time that we try to fool around. Something crazy happens and we never got to by God's grace.

I'll tell a story about it in a second. But I read Vine's book and I just felt like he was dismissing Eastern cultures and saying that they're outdated, which I was like, that's actually very racist and I'm good. So if I can't bring my blackness to the table, then I'm out. What do you mean dismissing Eastern cultures? There was, I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something about how the Jewish tradition and the way that they viewed homosexuality. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it was something that he said about that, that was kind of like, oh, it's outdated and African cultures are similar. And I was just like, first of all, Jesus was Jewish on purpose. I knew that. I knew the scriptures were diverse. I knew that it's the most diverse book in the world takes place in Africa, Asia, and Europe. So I'm like, this whole Christianity to white man's religion is stupid to me. I never understood that because I'm like, all people, you know? But I'm hearing this or reading it and I'm just like, I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced.

Were you wanting to be convinced? Like, did you read that book? Cause you're like, Oh, maybe this will allow me to be able to explore same sex relationships without, you know, feeling guilty for it or whatever. Man, I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. And it isn't okay for me to do that. And I know that for me, that was what my deconstruction was. I know for other people, they're just grown older, whatever, or they experience actual abuse or traumatic things. But for me, it was, hey, I really like this dude, and I'm pissed off that this relationship with this girl didn't work out. So maybe I am just gay. So let me just see if I can fool around with him and be okay with it. The answer is no. But no. But that's what I was looking into for sure.

And it was in kind of around February, I think it was January or February of 2017, got to Matthew 19. So I trekked my way through Matthew, got to Matthew 19. And it wasn't the singleness piece about Unix. It wasn't that that won me. Growing up, I was big into dinosaurs. Maybe that's a sign of autism, but I was diagnosed with mild ADHD when I was six. I didn't know till I was 16 because my parents didn't tell me for 10 years, which

that didn't make sense. But I understand as a young black kid, they didn't want me to be overly medicated because they had seen a lot of things that were happening to gifted black boys in education. So anyways, I was big into dinosaurs. Like, you know, I just went watch Jurassic World Rebirth and was like, oh my gosh, like, ah, you know. I'm so curious how dinosaurs are going to weave their way into the story, but I'll let you keep going. Yeah.

So I would read these, I would read these books. There's a book on my shelf literally by dinosaurs. I'm like, oh, I would go to Half Price Books and buy it. Well, a lot of the spaces we were in, they were like young Earth creationists. And so the science to me made sense. Like, I'm going to just say it. I think the Earth is old.

I don't know how old it is, because I ain't God. But yeah, I don't think the Earth is 7,500 years old. I'm just, I'm sorry. You know, I think dinosaurs are real. And I think that, you know, because of evolutionary mechanics and how the stuff works, I don't think an Allosaurus was built to attack a Triceratops. I think T-Rex was built for it. I think Allosaurus was built to attack Stegosaurus. Paleobiology and zoology was fire to me. Well, the creation stuff, the church we were at, people would give me a bunch of like Dennis Lindsay and all the things, because there's a big creation museum that was in Dallas. I don't know if it's still there, but it was at Christ for the Nations Institute.

And that's how we had connections to it. It got saved at that thing at a youth revival. Well, was big into Genesis. So, I would read Genesis 1 and 2. And I remember writing down, I think God spoke everything into existence except people. People He handmade in His image. I think we're just different from everything else in creation. And then, so will I came out by Hillsong and it's the things are evolving in pursuit of what you said. I don't see an issue with that. I know some people do, and that's okay. It's not a salvific issue. I know this now,

but at 17, when I'm reading Jesus' quote, male and female, this is why a man should leave his father's house. So I'm like, that looks familiar. So I go back and look Genesis one and two, and I was like, oh God, male and female was from the beginning, you win. Like I remember sitting at this table and I was like, God, you win. Like you win. It was a Sunday morning. So he was reading Genesis, or sorry, Matthew 19, where Jesus quotes Genesis 2.24, man shall

leave his father and mother, be joined to his wife, the two will become one flesh. But he also quotes Genesis 1.27, male, female, he created them and he kind of splices those together. So it was actually reading that Matthew text going back to Genesis, which theologically kind of solidified it for you? Yeah, because I was wrestling. I was like, God, can I do what I want? And oh, this is pre-fall. Because all the Christian hip hop stuff,

I didn't really like the play music, like the, I don't know how else to describe it, but kind of the youth group music. I was into show Baraka, propaganda. I liked Lecrae, but I liked more of his mixtapes. I liked more of the cultural stuff. Like, I'm big into conscious hip hop, like I'm a hip hop head.

But that was my thing. So they're all talking this theological talk. Fear of God by Eshaan Burgundy is probably, that's one of the most formative albums for me. They came out 2015. So this is the stuff I'm listening to and I'm essentially being discipled by these Christian hip hop. That's how I met Street Hems at the time.

He ended up discipling me. So this is kind of all around that time. I'm just like, oh, I knew about the creation of fall, redemption, new creation. I knew the biblical meta narrative, but it was when I read Genesis 1 and 2 and then realized, oh, male and female was the design. And then sin twisted and distorted things. God, you win. God, you win. I was like, you win. Cut it off with the dude. He was mad. When you, as a committed Christian who now is, has a, you're more confident in your theological

view of marriage, did you feel, how did you feel about this whole same sex attraction that you still have? Was it like a gut punch? Was it was it, or the opposite? Was it kind of like relief or like how did you, how did this part of you respond, if I could put it like that, to your theological commitment? You know what I mean? I think it just hit me where I was like, God, you're in charge. And I wanted, and what I knew was God is real, the scriptures are true, God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And that I'm made in His image. I knew those things, those truths, and that's what I went into it reading. And I was like, God, your word is true. And so if your word is true, whatever you say, I'm in. And I was in. It didn't mean the feelings went away. And it was like, no, I still liked that dude for a while. And the next year I have like a whole kind of grieving

process where I was like, man, I wanted a relationship to happen with him, but God said no. And I submitted. And I was like, okay, God, you say no. That doesn't mean I didn't cry. Doesn't mean I didn't like lament to my friends of like, I wanted to work out with him. And they're like, hey, bro, but God says no.

I'm like, you're right. You're right. Then I go to college, join a fraternity and I'm around a lot of people who they also were same sex attracted, probably like about eight of them. And then frat of like 60 people. And so we were the only fraternity that was really having these conversations. But I still kind of felt isolated because most of those guys, they were gay, like same sex attracted only,

like they weren't attracted to women. So I'm in this space like, no, I remember there was this Nigerian girl who I thought was fine and I wanted to date her and it did not work out. And I was really heartbroken. Like I was this one girl and like I really liked her as well. Like, try to date her, it just didn't work out. You know, there's just things like that where I didn't have language for it. But when I was talking with my straight friends, they

were like, okay, cool. So you like women, and then I would say like, well, I was out and about and this dude sort of flirting with me and I had to catch myself and they're like confused. Well, then my gay friends get that. But then they don't understand that. Well, why are you dating women? Because I like women and I would like to be married, but I also know that's unique for me. Do people not have a category? I mean, it, it seems like in this day and age, people would understand there is such a thing as bisexuality, whether you like that term or not, whatever. But I mean, is it, or is it actually pretty new to people? I mean, is it,

or is it actually pretty new to people? I mean, maybe I'm living in this space for too long that it seemed, yeah, maybe, but I mean, you're, you're older than me. You've been around people in ways that I just haven't been, but I like, I was dating this girl last in the fall. She, I'd said something on our first date, just kind of in passing, and then I didn't say anything about sexuality stuff. I just said I was a bad kid before I met Jesus. And she was like, what?

And so she pressed me kind of the next week. We ended up going on a second date, and it was a wonderful day. It was a great time. We worked well together. And then she did not understand once I told her my testimony. Like I told her about Brenna Blaine and kind of like, hey, this is what she's

navigating but Brenna's, her story is still different than mine because I'm still attracted to both men and women. And she didn't have a category for, I guess, bi people or people that are attracted to both genders. She didn't get it and she was like trying to, I don't want to like keep you from what you want. I was like, what are you talking about? I want to date you. What do you mean? Then turns out she wasn't a regenerate Christian. So that was a whole other conversation. And I was like, Hey, so that's actually the reason

I'm not going to continue to date you. Not this. We can work that out. But it was the, I don't think you understand the Lordship of Christ. So that was hard for me because I'm like, dang, is this what I'm going to deal with when I date? And that's happened before. That wasn't the first time, but that was like probably the most intense. And it wasn't anything evil. It was just like, well, this sucks. I don't want it to work out with her.

But that's what I'm experiencing a lot. But with Gen Z, and especially the college kids I'm discipling or around, I'm not being met with some of the pushback I was met with in college. I would say something and people are trying to give me a theological treaty on sexuality. And I'm like, hey, bro, I'm going to be real with you. I've read the books. I would put them on you and all these other people who had written on this topic. And I'm like, just go read this book before you come and try and talk to me about sexuality. Probably arrogant, but more of what it was is I'm like, I just

did not have time for the foolishness of, hey, I'm confessing to you as a brother in Christ and I trust you. And you're jumping on me about the language I use. And I remember one of my old pastors, Jimmy, freed me from this. It was beautiful. Had a convo with him because he preached a sermon on sexuality. I listened to the sermon. I was out of town at a friend's house in Houston, so I watched the sermon. And I was kind of disappointed because friend's house in Houston. So I watched the sermon and I was kind of disappointed because the applications at a first Corinthians six, the two things he said was like, Hey guys, like if you're happy that I like and wanting to bash the LGBTQ plus community, you're also a sinner and you need to repent. So that was the first one. And the second one was to queer people outside of the church.

And I use queer as a blanket term. So, but I was like, well, I'm in, not in the middle. I'm faithful following Jesus. And I'm also not straight. So I, you know, shot him a text. We met the next Sunday. We were in his office talking and he was like, Oh, dude, my bad. I didn't realize. I really was just focused on the masses of, in the people in our church. And there were multiple people I had talked with that also felt the same way. I just had, I guess the guts to go and talk to him, but he was discipling me. So the next day he and the lead pastor ended up recording a video talking about how same sex attracted Christians can continue to walk in faithfulness in the life of our church.

And it was great and that was helpful for me. And then I had another convo with him because I had some friends and some peers that were pissed off at me for using bisexuality or trying to articulate that's what I'm experiencing. The language, just the word bisexuality or trying to articulate that's what I'm experiencing. The language is the word bisexuality. Yeah. So you've had to navigate the whole language debate. What's that been like? Yeah.

And that's where Jimmy was just like, bro, people are going to misunderstand you. Just go and say you're bisexual attracted or said that you're attracted to men and women. It's not that deep. He's like, I think you're overthinking this, but also they need to grow up and just chill out. It's not that serious because for him, he knew me. He knew where I was in my faith. I'm not elementary in this. I know kind of where I land. I believe in reformed soteriology, baptismal ecclesiology, you know, I'm complementarian, I'm charismatic in continuations, I'm contemplative, I know where I'm at theologically. And at the end of the day,

I still have these attractions that go against God's design, and I have to say no to my flesh. So, I think it's with the language piece, I just have to be mindful of the setting. Because like there's a sermon I'm going to preach in a few weeks, where there's going to be seventh and eighth graders in the room. And for our church being an older SBC church, I just know I have to be very mindful with how if I do end up sharing my story, because I'm going to talk about the law, so whole thing. But if I share my story of, hey, I have these feelings that go against God's design, but if God says no, then I'm going to say no to those because God says no. And I just have to be mindful instead of saying, hey, guys, I like guys and girls. God says no to gay sex. I can't go and say that in that setting. I have to be mindful of that. And that's been fun to navigate at times, especially in the spaces I'm in.

This is the example. I was with you guys for the weekend at the conference and some egalitarians jumped on me for being complimentarian. It was a fun conversation. I was outnumbered. I was outnumbered. I go to Rimkey- A pack of egalitarian wolves circling-

A hundred percent. They're like, oh, you're complimentarian. I was outnumbered. I go to Grimky- The pack of egalitarian wolves circling- A hundred percent. They're like, you're a complementarian. You don't believe women could use these gifts. I was like, I just don't think they could be elders and pastors. I don't think it's that deep. The next week I go to Intensive for the seminary I'm a part of, which is only men. It's Reformed, Com complementarian, it's Grimkey seminary. So a lot of the guys that used to be big with Axe 29 and the SBC, they run that. So I'm there, they're jumping on me. You was with them Pagans last week.

What you mean? Preston's a friend of mine. Leave Preston alone. He ain't no Pagan. He's kind of reformed. He's like us. He's just nice. So that's kind of the space. He's a nice. So that's kind of the space.

He's a nice reform. Everybody's all confused. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's, I think what I realize is, oh, I can essentially kind of code switch. And around certain people, I'm going to say I'm bisexual. But most of the time, what I would prefer is to say I'm attracted to men and women,

but don't pursue male partners. But I understand becoming all things to all men. That's a lot to say. Yeah. So sometimes these labels, like I totally get the problem of giving the impression that you're making an ontologically, a stronger ontological statement that you're trying to make. I am bisexual. That could

sound like you're communicating some ultimate deep-seated identity or fundamental aspect of your humanity rather than, you know, the distinction I think you even said offline. It's not who I am. It's how I am. It's part of my experience. It's not, but it's not a fundamental part of my identity. But the very phrase, like, I am bisexual, could communicate that to people, even if that's not what you're trying to say. Yeah, the language piece, man, it's tough. And it's become so contentious recently.

And we need more conversations about it and less heat, more light. I know we're coming up on an hour here. I got one more question that I would love for you to speak into. What do you, and I, cause I've heard this a lot. In fact, I've probably felt it from time to time. How do you respond to people that say,

you're bisexual, you believe in traditional marriage. What's the big deal? So you can just pick one or the other. We'll just pick a woman that's valid. And What's the big deal? So you can just pick one or the other. We'll just pick a woman that's valid. And what's the big deal? Like is there, as somebody who experiences bisexual attractions, help us who don't. Maybe, yeah, understand what you're wrestling with. Like if you did say, if you did get married to a woman, would you, would your romantic and say sexual attractions potentially be, I don't want to say marriage is going to satisfy everything obviously, but like, would it be like, Oh yeah, it would be 100% totally satisfied. Or would there always be this

kind of maybe ongoing feeling like there's something in my broken sexuality, we all have broken sexuality, there's something in my sexuality that has always had this longing that is not met that I just have to sort of give to God. Does that make sense? That's a long kind of question. So I hope I'm framing it right. And this is the funny thing, because most of my friends are married and they understand because they're like, oh, my lust did not go away when I got married. I'm still attracted to other women. Most people aren't one person attracted.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that's what I'm just trying to explain to people like, yes, of course there's things I have to wrestle with with, you know, things I've done and how my body reacts and responds to certain things. And most of the time it's like, oh, if I'm hugging a friend and I get aroused, it's not really sexual. My body doesn't know what to do with the oxytocin because I've sexualized this for 10 years.

So there's that. So I'm like, okay, that's fun. But then with the marriage piece, I want to get married to a woman. That doesn't mean I'm not going to not be attracted to other women or men. I just know, well, God says no. So I don't have the option to cheat. That's a sin. And I fear God a bit too much to where I know, hey, I'm not going to go and have sex with men because that's a

sin. I'm not going to go and right now have sex with women because I'm not married and it's to one woman, one natural born man, one natural born woman for life, for life, unless there's unforeseen circumstances of death or adultery or abandonment or abuse. That's kind of where I'm at. And so for me, I think what I would want people to help them realize is like, hey look, if I talk to gay men and I ask them

what they're attracted to in a man, it's probably the same. But if I talk to a straight man and ask him, hey, what are you attracted to in women? It's gonna be the same. The tension is when, oh, like prime examples at a coffee shop a few weeks ago, there's a girl who I found really attractive. I know her, I'm friends with her, all that.

Well, I can't pursue her, she's dating somebody. Fine. There was a guy who was very attractive and he was giving me eyes and I'm over here like, I really want to sin right now, but I came to this coffee shop to read Psalm 9 and to write and journal and then read on the doctrines of grace and Baptist life. That's what I came here to do for an hour before I go to this church planting residency thing. So I'm like, okay, that's fine. That's fine. I have to wrestle with this body of death, but I have the mind of Christ and then be reminded that there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And it's not easy. I was weeping

a few days ago and was confessing to a friend after some stuff had happened. And I'm just like, what's going on? And at the end of the day, I'm like, Jesus is better. Jesus is better. That's what I was praying about the podcast last night. And it was just like, I was crying because I was like, Jesus, I just want people to know you more and more through this conversation with a buddy of mine who I looked up to for years and now through an accident, I know personally. Literally I was hungry and had to pay bills and I could not eat and so then all the guys were like sneak to the speaker dinner and I was like

cool I go to the speaker dinner I didn't know it was at your house and I'm like oh gosh I feel like I'm intruding and you're like who are you with and then we end up talking and it was fine but it was I don't I feel like I'm just here like how did this happen I'm just taking it one step at a time like your streets bodyguard yeah I'm just like I'm just taking it one step at a time. I thought you were a streets bodyguard. Yeah, I'm just here. And at the end of it all, man, with the sexuality stuff, that's a big thing of what I do experience. That's probably number one or two of stuff that I'm wrestling with on a daily basis. But I was on the way driving home from the coffee shop

I went to, which is funny. It's called Inclusion Coffee. It's a wonderful coffee shop. I ran by some Christians who are legit Christians and not fake ones. I drove here. People were driving crazy and I was pissed off. I'm like having to repent. God, I'm getting angry over silliness. Why?

I'm freaking out about this. Like, hey, it's not that deep. It's not that serious. Just slow down. Stop rushing. I'm trying to figure out a potential career move out of public education into something else. And so I'm like, hey,

like my church point residency is unpaid. So I'm like, hey, it's not, I'm 25. I can't plan for another three years. So I have time. God, what's next? I'm trying to trust him in all these things, especially with my sexuality. And to anybody that's listening that, regardless of what they just struggle with, I'm just like, hey, look, do you trust Jesus as the, something I think you had said, the risen

King of the universe? Then trust Him. He's inviting you into whatever it is. Take His hand and go see what's going to happen. God saved some kids and restored the joy of salvation to a kid. All these things that are just beautiful that I'm just like, I'm just here. He was going to do this without me. With or without me, he was going to do it anyways. I think, you know what? I want to submit my life.

I do have to think about things in the future of, hey, what might it be if I end up having kids and one of them is same sex attracted? Well, I'm going to know how to navigate it, but I want to give them the space that, you know, my parents and I are close now, but they didn't handle it well growing up because of the charismatic stuff and some of the funky theology. But yeah, I want to be able to answer some of those questions and help them navigate in a way where I could have I wish I could have gone to my parents and say hey I'm I look at girls and they look really cute and then I also look at guys and look really cute and I'm confused

My parents didn't have the language to navigate that They were navigating their own trauma and things actual trauma not oh somebody bullied me like abuse in our family physical abuse that we had to By God's grace. We got to heal from together, three generations. But yeah, I'm like, at the end of the day, I just want people to experience wholeness and freedom in Christ. But it's also, it's not even a journey. It's one day, one step at a time. And I don't know what it looks like.

The next time, if we have a next time on a conversation, I might be married. I might not be. I don't know what it looks like the next time if we have a next time on a conversation I might be married. I might not be I don't know. I'm just here. Yeah, you know Cody was like you're gonna talk with my dad. So That's right Okay, then bad. It was great Talking with you on theology rather than just hanging out the conference, but man, appreciate again, your honesty, your vulnerability and thanks for the courage to have a public conversation about the Algenra. Really appreciate your brother. Thanks Preston. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.