Theology in the Raw - On Being Christian and Same-Sex Attracted in Africa: Steve Mwendia

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Steve Mwendia is a Kenyan Christian, who experiences same-sex attraction. Steve founded a ministry called “Found” that aims to walk alongside believers experiencing same-sex orientation and/or gender dysphoria, helping them flourish in their faith, identity, and community. See more at foundafric.org. Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Steve Mwanda, who is a Kenyan Christian who experiences same-sex attraction. He founded a ministry called and this ministry aims to walk alongside believers experiencing same-sex orientation and or gender dysphoria, helping them flourish in their faith, identity, and community. You can go to the website, found, you know, I spell found, A-F-R-I-C dot or check it out in the show notes. I highly recommend checking out this awesome ministry. And I've known about Steve for a long time. This is the first time we actually had a conversation on Theology and Arras. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one or nobley, Steve Mwendia.

Steve, welcome to Theology Dara. I have been wanting to have you on for a long time. I've known about you from a distance for a long time. You know, I came across your name on social media as being a Christian who is, you know, experience the same-sex attraction and lives in Kenya. I'm like, oh, that's probably not easy. It would be challenging if you lived in America. I'm curious about your African context. Tell us your story.

You can start as far back as actually, I would love to know, like, when you came to grips with the fact that you were experiencing same-sex attraction. What was it like for you living in Kenya? Thank you for someone. So happy to be here. I am a listen of Theology in the Role podcast from way back. Yeah, way back. In 2018, is when I came to terms with the fact that I have same-sex attractions and that they may not go away. But then when I was 17 years old is the first time when I realized that something might not be okay with how I experienced my attractions. Before then, I think as early as 10 years old, I had an experience where I would find myself getting aroused by the idea of seeing another man naked or just

imagination of that. But then I never thought of it as anything. else. Also because by that time I didn't know anything about being gay or something like that. So I guess from 10 years old to like 16 years old, I just knew there was something that felt off, especially when it came to my arousal, but it felt like it was just something out there that I didn't know what it was. And especially because no one else talked anything about being gay. When I went to high school, most of our high schools in Kenya are boarding schools and some of them are mixed boarding schools or just you have one sex so I in a school there were cases of boys engaging in same-sex sexual relations I mean if you are

found out you'd be expelled but I never had an interest in that and so I never considered myself anything about that so yeah so I think when I was 17 as old it was when I just realized something was off. Like, whatever I was experiencing was something that I should not be experiencing. And I remember searching on Google. And then my search was, is it normal for a man to be sexually aroused by the thought of another man?

And Google told me that I was, most probably a confused teenager or I was gay. And by then, I had done some, like, To try to satisfy my curiosity of checking out men, I'd began watching pornography. And so I knew what gay people did. And I was like, no, I am not gay. I think I'm a confused teenager. So I think from when I was 17 years old to 2018, when I think I was 25, 26,

I just thought this was something that was off and I needed to do something about it. So until 2018, I knew I could pray these away, I could work out something of this, and I could be okay. Yeah. Did you grow up in a Christian household, like a committed Christian household? So did you immediately, if you did, have a conflict with your sexuality and your faith? Yes, my background at home is Christian, no like we all go to church. but also I found faith in Christ

when I was really young like I've been in Sunday school all along my faith formed when I was really young I would say that so like in the same year when I was 17 years old when I was coming like realizing something is off with my sexuality

is actually the same time when I found a very personal faith in God that was the same year And so I had conflicted a lot because I thought I had done a really good job in keeping away from girls because that was all. You did a great job, right? You were so good at it. Yeah. Yes, I mean, I felt right. I was great in my self-control. I didn't have any scandals like the other boys. So I feel like I was doing a really good job in that. But then just the idea that something was off and that. I might be gay, I think that's, like, I began praying about that. And so from that time, my fear was that there's this thing that I have seen on the

internet, and I think there's some part of me that seems to be leading towards that, and I should do everything possible to just move away from that. So, yeah. Talk to us about the cultural perception of gay people in Kenya. like is it just is it not talked about much or is it talked about and I would imagine in a pretty negative way I've been there a couple times so I know just a little bit about the general culture and I you know yeah what's the general vibe like towards gay people in Kenya so it's been changing 10 years ago people didn't talk about it there were like like when I was

teenager there was a word like homosexual that would be thrown around and it's more applied to high school boys that are engaging in sexual relations. But then, I think the last 10 years, there's been more and more conversations happening, especially in the social media. We have heard some prominent people come out as gay. I mean, they have been met with backlash, a lot of backlash. There was one of such a person who came out, found out of backlash, and then sadly died a few years later and everyone was like, see, you can't mock God and all that.

And people were like, kind of, like, felt like it was okay for him to die. You know, that he's come out, okay, and all that. And so that has been changing and also because we have a more visible LGBT organization that I've tried to amend the Penal Court, the one that says, that's engaging same sexual relation is punishable up to 14 years jail imprisonment. So we have had the organization, the human rights organizations, and the visible GPT organization in Kenya tried to seek for the amendment of that, which has not worked.

And so there is, so because of that, there is like that understanding that, A, the LGBT people out there. But also, I think the last few years, we have had more young people come out public. Some who do TikTok content and all that. And that has made the conversation even continue more and more. At the moment, I came back in Kenya like two months ago

after being away for 18 months. I've seen that people are having conversations around what they call SIM2. So people have this idea that... Sin 2? No, SIM. So, you know, our phone has two SIM cards. Oh, okay.

Sin 2, I'm not, okay. Sim 2, and that seems like the new way of referring to people who are LGBTQ that there are SIM2 people. And so, yeah, largely the law is against gay people. in Kenya, there is people talk about it, there is a negative attitude, but then we also have people who are gay and who are public about it, and nothing much will happen to them. So it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, there's people tolerate it, people who are gay, but there's that feeling of, let's not condone it, let's not allow it to happen as much, yeah.

So there's still, there's a, there is a growing acceptance compared to, 10 years ago, at least a growing visibility, for sure. Yes, there's growing visibility. And I think that's why they, I think the last five years or so, there is a group called, I think, Kenya Christian Professional Forum, something like that, that has been on the forefront of opposing what they believe is LGBTQ agenda, which they believe, you know, they are coming to attack the family.

And so, yeah, so there's kind of, like, you'll hear young people, especially the secular ones, say, you know, be yourself as far as you don't interfere with me, just be you, you know, be happy. So there's something like that. You won't hear, I mean, there's been some physical attack here and there, but it's not like, I think, Uganda where it's, I think it's in a bad place. Yeah, so last year I went from Kenya to Uganda, and yeah, Uganda seems to be a bit more strict and harsh towards LGBT people, right? Yes, yes. It's Uganda, I think it's just, yeah, there's, it's been politicized also. So I think there's just hate and that feeling of, when you're punishing an LGBT person, we're cleansing the land from, Just this evil things that are being pushed to us by people from the West. Okay.

Talk to me about the perception of LGBT people in the church in Kenya. Is it, yeah, what's that like? I mean, most churches don't believe that LGBT people in the church. There was some time in 2020, I think 23 or 24. I can't remember very well. The Supreme Court upheld a ruling that says LGBT organization or associations can be formed. And there was such an uproar from every corner of the country. But especially some very key churches put out statements.

speaking of how that ruling is against the Bible, against the land and all that. And I remember a few of us reading those statements and feeling. People don't actually think that gay people are in the church. These people don't completely have an idea of who they're actually talking about. And so, yeah, I think the feeling is, give people out there, they should be evangelized to

and they should find healing and deliverance from their being LGBTQ and yeah, then they can be saved. So there's no, there's some little understanding that people can actually experience same sex attractions and still be in the church.

So, yeah, so the big idea is that they are giving people out there and they're not here in the church. Is there a lot of like, an emphasis on what we would call conversion therapy. I don't know if you have the same term there, but like if somebody is gay and they come to Christ, or maybe they are gay in the church and they come out and tell people,

is there a push toward conversion therapy? I mean, first, so the rooted idea is that someone who has these feelings, which are unnatural, as a language they'll use, is that they are most probably bewitched, or they have just it's a demonic oppression or like something is just off

and so if you accept Christ then you should not continue struggling with this that you should act Christ should be able to just deliver you and so that's the whole idea

and so I had stories of people who when they told their pastor about that they were told that they needed the deliverance. With me posting some stuff online, I've also been told that I need to be born again, again, like, I need proper rebirth. Born again again.

Yes, I need proper rebirth. So the biggest, most people have that understanding that this is something that should be preyed away and this should be able to happen. And most of them have, so we have had a few people. shared testimonies out there about how they got delivered from homosexuality. So we have a few of those stories also out there, and people will quote them a lot. So people would be like, if this person was delivered, then why don't you think God will deliver you? So the main thinking out there.

I mean, you're very public with your story. I mean, you're on this podcast. Not sure how many Kenyans are listening to Theology and Ra. but I remember coming across your name on social media and I know you have a, I think we could talk about your ministry or you have a website, you've had a couple websites that I've seen. What's that been like for you being really public with the fact that you still experience same-sex attraction

or still a Christ's follower? Is that been well received or are people, do they disagree? Are they confused? What's the response been like? I'm public, but also in some way not public. I tell people that I have written my story out there and I've been podcast but I've never done

like done a video and said hey guys I'm gay like I love Jesus or if you go to my social media handles I don't have like gay Christian like I don't have that and like when I go into a space I may never say that I'm gay

until someone asks or unless I feel like comfortable to share with someone or like I don't have any rainbow bracelet or anything. So that's all my... So I say like I'm public but also not public. People have to kind of go and find your... Like if you just met somebody to church, I mean, you could be at a church for a while.

Probably people wouldn't know unless they did a Google search or came across your name online or... Yeah, okay. So I talk a lot about health in this podcast, and one major area of health is your sleep. And the quality of your sleep is directly impacted by the quality of what you're sleeping on, even the kinds of sheets that you use. So this is why I recently switched over to bowl and branch sheets. I've heard a lot about bowl and branch from ads on other podcasts.

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like a burrito, like fully clothed, you know, because I wanted to see it. Am I going to start sweating right away? I was already feeling kind of hot. And I kid you not, I sat there for like 10 minutes, and I didn't get hot at all. In fact, the kids even took a picture of me, which I'm not going to show you because I look like an idiot. Anyway, I've learned that one of the myths that when it comes to sheets is thread count. Have you heard about this, you know? Thread count simply measures the fabric's density, not its quality.

Now, Bull and Branch uses the highest quality organic cotton threads for long-lasting sheets that actually do get softer over time. So feel the difference that an extraordinary night's sleep can make with Bull and Branch. 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at bolandbranch.com forward slash t-I-T-R. That's bull and branch, okay, B-O-L-L-A-N-D branch.com slash t-I-T-R to say 15% and unlock free shipping. Exclusions apply. Have you shared your story publicly in a church in Kenya? Even my local church, we don't talk about it. It looks like my purpose, I think all my professors know that I do a ministry around some sex attraction or anything, but as far as we don't bring that that in here, we're good.

But just stay with that thing out there. Yeah, but again, initially when I decided to share my story in 2019, I had come from a very hard time. So in 2018, when I came to terms with my sexuality, it was because I had just come, I reached a point where I felt these feelings were not going away, and they had read stuff online and actually met some people who told me, just be yourself, just accept this, and accept this to be you, and which meant engaging in same-sex sexual relations. But at the same time, I had also met Christians who had told me, if you pray hard enough, if you have, you know, if you have, you know, faith, this will go away.

And I think in 2018, I was realizing, you know, these feelings are not going away and I don't know how to be a Christian even with them. And then it was a really hard time and I was like, okay, I don't think I were, I don't believe I can continue living because it just doesn't seem, I can't stop being, I can't stop experiencing these feelings, but I can't also not be a Christian. And that was a really hard season. And thankfully, thank to God, at the time I encountered the book wash and waiting. And I think for the first time, I saw myself being a Christian and pursuing ministry, because by that time I had this feeling that God was calling me to Christian ministry. So I saw, like, looking at Wesley Hill, I felt like, this is who I've always wanted to be like, I want to. be a Christian. I want to go to church ministry. I want to teach theology in a seminary. And I think for the first time, it was more like, there's actually life ahead. And at the time, I began sharing my

story. And the desire in sharing my story was not even to come out as such, but more to just let someone out there that know that they're not alone. There's someone else out there who also experiences this and so yeah, so because of that, like when I posted my first story, people were kind of empathetic about it. I received some, like, good, like, you know, comments and feedback that, hey, thank you for sharing this. I also struggle with pornography. Thank you for sharing this. I've also had this and this and that felt good. But then over time, people realize that when I would post something around sexuality, I didn't condemn gay people enough.

And so there was a continuous feeling that, we don't know which side you are on, really. Like, and what are you actually even telling people? Are you telling them they can actually be delivered? Because that the message they weren't, like, the field should be out there. I mean, I would be like, my message out there is that if you are out there and you experience this,

God sees you, he loves you, and he actually wants to be in a relationship with you. And whether these feelings go away or not, God would still desire that you work with him and just continue experiencing him. And people would be like, I mean, but you need to let people know that they can actually be delivered and to let them know that it's possible

to actually get married to an opposite sex. And it'd be like God is, able to do that, but I don't want that to be the goal of anyone. I want them to pursue something greater in God, whether God leads them to singlehood or to opposite sex marriage, because I still, I do believe that sexual relations is to be between men and woman in the context of marriage. And so, yeah, I think over time, what I've seen is some people got it and I've been okay with me, but some other people have felt that I'm advancing LGBT stuff, and so some of them have distanced themselves.

And so they are like, I will hear a rumor here and there that I believe this way about marriage or there was a day I was chatting with someone and he said, I think my view and your view of marriage is different. I was like, oh, exciting. What do you think? what do you think is my view about marriage and he said it's like no I actually do believe like

what you believe and yeah so there's been like all those rumors or a rumor that oh maybe if I post let's say a guy and I'm celebrating there some people have taken that to be like oh maybe this is your boyfriend or something so

there's been all that but also a big suspicion currently I'm back in Kenya to do found which is basically ministry for people experience same-sex attractions and or gender dysphoria. And I was talking to my mentor the other day and he told me a big thing that is there and would likely be there is suspicion on what are you actually up to. Well, Steve, sounds like our contexts aren't actually too different then

because you have a similar thing in the U.S. at least, where if you extend too much, grace, compassion, understanding, people assume you've made like a theological change when really that's a more holistic theological deep dive into the heart of Jesus. But yeah, that can be difficult. Through your ministry, through your online presence, have you come across other people who have similar stories as yours? I mean, the first time when I posted my story online, I mean, I posted the story and then closed my laptop, took her work

because I knew what would come. But then when I came back, two hours later, the comment, like, I received a text message from someone who was like, thank you for sharing this. I thought I was alone. I thought that was only Christian

was trying to be faithful despite these feelings. So that was like two hours when I did that, which was in 2019. And consistently, I have had people bump on my website, it's out there and someone who just come into my inbox and be like, I didn't know that there was someone out there.

I didn't know that this existed. I remember someone sharing a story where he was at a state where he was feeling, okay, I've given up, God, I'm giving you the next few days to try to sort me out. And if not, I am going full blown into same sex, sexual relations. And I had posted my link somewhere and you found the link. and read some of the stories we had posted

there and he said that felt like God rescuing him from what he felt was the road he was going to and so I have heard

many people reach out to me currently we actually have an online group of people I remember we even us

doing journeys of faith there's a series that's the Centre for Faith and Sexuality released some time back we did it with our group and it was amazing. It was actually the first material that helped us come from a group.

So I knew people and I was chatting with them differently. But then when we did that material, you were like, hey, I guess we should have a WhatsApp group. I think we should meet more often. I have some in-person meetings. And so, yeah, we actually have a group called Journey's of Faith. Oh, no way. Oh, that's so great. Yeah, so for the audience that doesn't know the, you know, the ministry,

I'm a part of Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, we released a whole video kind of series called Journeys of Faith that's focused specifically on Christians or seekers who are experienced same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria. Some are totally committed to Christ. Some are, you know, on a journey. Some believe in a traditional sexual ethic. Some are trying to figure that out. It's kind of for a broad, broad range of people, trying to get people a positive way forward. And it's totally free online. Center for Faith.com. Anyway, I'm so stoked, Steve, that that resource found its way to East Africa and is helping people. That's amazing. Thank you for me. Yeah, we, you know, most of our resources we charge. It's how we fund our ministry.

And if we didn't do that, we wouldn't have a ministry. But, yeah, this one, we just really felt like we just didn't want any kind of paywall, especially since it's designed for any age group, but we really have that heart for, man, that late teen, early 20 college student who's in the beginning of stages of the journey and we just didn't want any financial barrier to get in the way. So, yeah.

Man, so your ministry is called Found. You said you have an online group, is that right? What else? Like, tell me about that ministry. Like, what is it that you do? and what kinds of people were involved? Yeah, so found reaches out to people who experience same-sex attractions or LGBT, whichever term they come with.

More leaning toward for believers. But not exclusively. Not exclusively, but it's like in a vision, we have believers who experience same-sex attractions. So at the heart of it is to careful people who are Christians and who experience same-sex attractions or who are LGBTQ. And the desire is to just let them know they're not alone. I think that the first thing for people to know in such a context that the car was,

to let them know that there are others out there who are seeking to obey God even in the experience of same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria. But also, we try to offer discipleship. I've done a Master of Divinity in Geology, well, Master of Divinity, biblical studies. So I am passionate about the world. In Nairobi or? Yes, Africa, International University.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's a great school. Yeah. So I have a passion also to just see people grow in their faith. The last few years, I felt, I thought I was called to Pastor of Ministry, which I desire to do even now, but I'm not doing it full time at the moment.

But just meeting with people who are journeying in, like, who are in their sexuality journeys, sometimes realising, most people need discipleship. And sometimes, like, when you meet someone and tell them, hey, I think God would want you to live this way and you realize someone does not even understand the whole idea of suffering like it's the only thing that when you try to meet with someone

there's just more that people need and so found just seeks to meet people there and be like okay what do we do? Can we talk about God's love? Can we talk about faith? What does that look like? Can we talk about the whole

idea that we live in the already but not yet. Because I meet some people who are, like, obsessed with, if I'm a Christian, why is God not taking days away? Can I have enough faith? And I'm like, okay, let's look at all the Bible says. So found hopes to do more of discipleship.

I was just going to ask how it's funded. Is it funded? Do you raise money? Is it just completely volunteer? Or can people give to it? There's people listening that might want to support what you're doing. The last few years, it's been more like a side. Like, I was in school, then I was in China the last 18 months, so I didn't like do it full time.

But now I'm back in Kenya and this is what I'm doing. So currently, we're actually raising support because now is when I'm giving like more full time effort into it. So yes. Can people, can people listening that are in the U.S. or not living in Canada, can they contribute to found? Yes. Is that they just, okay, they just go to the website? Go to, go to, what's? In the website, there is a place for supporters or partner with us.

There's a. Is it found? Let me look it up real quick. Foundafric.org. And are you the, where does the money go? It just helps fund the ministry, fund your salary so that you have space to do the work that you're doing. Is that? Yeah.

So at the moment, because actually we started receiving like the, Fards from this August, because that's when I started doing it full time. At the moment, it's geared towards me as a person, but also we key things as we launch it, because basically now is when we are launching it. We have been doing it, but more of like a free thing because I was doing other work. Currently, we're just gearing towards, I have small group meetings with people, one-on-one meetings with people, and I'm also working towards a podcast. Oh, good.

Yeah. So, I'm a fan. Thank you. Thank you. I've longed for the longest time to, like, start a podcast. Yeah. And basically almost do things, theology, do things, sexuality, do things, cultural issues. So something around theology in the row, but something else.

I would love to bring my master's in divinity side, bring my experience. as a Christian minister and also just my story. So, yeah, hoping that all that can just help people to see. So, yeah, found Afrique, that's found an A-F-R-I-C.org. I'll try to put something in the show notes. So you're very theologically minded, obviously. In your journey, did you ever wrestle with, explore, consider like an affirming theological viewpoint.

Was that ever something you were leaning towards, wrestling with? No. I felt like if I ever decided to get a boyfriend then the high chance

was that I would leave my faith. So I think from the word goal, the feeling was I, like there's no way I can read the verses in the scripture that say, like, again, it's same-sexual relations. There's no way I can read them to me differently. And so I think that, but also even in moments

when I have not lived perfectly, like when I have erred even in my work with Christ, I'm not even at the piece that I could actually go this way. so I guess not I haven't any time when I feel like if I'm going their farming way when I'm like I have a crash on this place or if they told me they love me back

maybe I may end up like living so the only feeling is always that if I end into a same sex sexual relation the high chance is that I will leave my Christian trade so that has been it yeah I've heard some progressive in my experience

it's always been white people in the West when they hear about when they hear a perspective like yours they would say oh that's so sad Steve has been influenced by white conservative missionaries who have

exported kind of this conservative old fashioned sexual ethic to Africa and you're almost like a victim of missionary expansion. I don't know if you've heard that. I've heard that not a ton, but often enough, you know, because there is that one of the kind of the elephant in the room questions

regarding the theological debates is why is global Christianity outside of Europe and the U.S., why is it affirming theology just not really being embraced at all? whereas in some branches of the church in the Europe and in the U.S. and Canada, it seems to be, you know, growing in popularity in the church. But globally, it's kind of not. There's different people have different responses to that. And on the progressive argument is typically like, well, that's because the U.S. and the West has exported their traditional theology. I've heard from some, a couple different African pastors that they're like, that feels really dehumanizing. I see as if we Africans can't sort out the Bible on our own. We're just going to like passively receive what missionaries are telling us. But anyway, I would love your thoughts on that if that question makes sense. I mean, I haven't had that. I haven't had that pushback.

Midgely also because we have very few people who are trying to balance, like trying, seeking to be Christians and gay at the same time. Even when I attend, like we have an affirming Christian fellowship here, like a church. Wait, do you have it affirming church in Kenya? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, it's largely a group of LGBT people who meet for church on a Sunday afternoon.

But planted by, I think, a ministry from the U.S. Okay. But, yeah, it's. Probably is it like a UMC, a United Methodist church? because I know they have a lot of... Cosmopolitan and a farming church. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah.

So, and like in such spaces, yes, we have a few who are trying to do that and who even try to base the argument from African kind of way of linking and all that. Yeah, I don't know which is the best way to think about that. I think I would say, yeah, to many of us, Africa. Fred is very personal. Again, also, I think we have, as much as we rationalize things, we also have a very experiential thing,

if I would say that, most Africans. And so when it comes to the question of, could, like, the people that I lead and people that I'm part of who believe in what the Bible teaches about marriage in view of male-female and still are gay or same-sex attracted. Could they be influenced by something from out there?

I don't know, honestly, because sometimes I feel if we, like, if there was no Christianity, if the Christianity was not part of it, I wonder how Africans would respond to the whole issue of LGBT. I think that's a question that I've always tried to ask myself many times. I mean, there's history that says that some of the, older kings had some issues of a male partner here there. Oh, really? How far back was that?

From Uganda, there's a Kabaka, there's a history around that. Like several hundred years ago or like thousands of, or like how far back does that? I mean, before colonialism, so before 1915, each there. Yeah, so maybe, yeah, 1700 or 1800. So there was something like that. And I think also in our society, there might have been things around that. But there was still negative attitude around same-sex sexual relation. So I don't think it's something that came with the whites.

Yeah, so I think that I would easily see it. And I think what I feel Christian does down to many of us is, like for me, if I was not a Christian, I honestly don't know how I would. I don't know how much hate I would be having on myself. I don't know how much shame I would be having on myself. I don't know how much compassion out there would have received because I've received good compassion from people who are believers. And so I, I don't know, it works for us in some way. Like, that faith that sometimes feels oppressive has worked for some of us. I mean, truth is the conservative Christians who push against,

who push for ex-gadiology of Dan Moham in my place. So that's true. That's a reality that we experience. And people are so easy to, like, quote people out there who propagate esgade theology or like someone sent you videos or people who are talking about I was once a lesbian but now I'm not and someone like look at these people

so days that has happened and it's negative to some of us who are like we wanted that we're still open for that but it does not happen but we still Christian and our testimony is still real so there is that which we have

experienced but in large way I think Christian it has worked for many of us in great ways Have you faced any persecution, harassment, either from the broader culture or inside the church based on your sexuality? Not like something I would call persecution in that way. Again, because I, as I told you, I'm not like very loud about my sexuality. I think the kind of persecution that I have received would be more of suspicion. When people don't know what I stand for, just believe that, hey, I mean, like, there's a time I was applying for the role of a youth pastor, and I knew that I can't get it because my story is already out there.

Or when people come to my DM and they're like, whatever you're propagating is not right. So there's like more of the online thing or rumors. But, yeah, I think I'm a very conflict avoidant person. So even how I've parted myself is where there might have been no reason for someone to, like, verbally or physically abuse me. But I have seen people who have received prosecution. I have a friend who serves with one of the main churches here, which I'm not mentioned, who has been, like, very loud and public and works with LGBT organizations. here and he's an ordained minister with one of the churches but he can't just serve with

the church because they just say you can't we we're not to revoke your donation but you just can't and yes he has received what I would call a real persecution but more because it's really loud about it and he will have rainbow flux here so yeah that's that's what has happened. I mean, now that I'm back in Kenya and doing this ministry, I really don't know what will happen in the next few years. Like, would people be more suspicious about it? I was talking to my mentor and he told me, yeah, maybe actually we should think about this ministry, looking at the whole area of sexual brokenness generally to avoid suspicion that you might be part of this LGBT agenda and trying to push it in the charge.

And so, yeah, so there's, that's how things look like. And personally, I think I'm just at a place where I'm asking myself, what would work best, like, what would ensure that found doesn't die as soon as, like, now that it's kind of coming up, doesn't get killed, but also because I have. a heart for the church. And I long that believers who are in the church don't have to live a double life or don't have to leave the church

just because of the experience of sexuality. How can I steward found in a way that I don't compromise, but I'm also not too aggressive in a way that I... Yeah, so I think, yeah, I... praying for wisdom more, even how to engage. Yeah. So you would love to be a pastor at some point.

Are there churches that would receive you as a pastor knowing if they did know your story? Like, are there some churches that have a, I don't know, they approach the conversation like you and I would? Or would that be a difficult pastoral position to find? So from 2018, I've been part of a pastoral team in a church in New York. in Nairobi. And they know your story? Yes. It's weird they know it, but we don't talk about it.

So don't ask them to tell. I'm a good preacher. But you're still fine being, yeah, they're still like to be on the pastoral team. Yeah, so yeah, I preach. I would like do discipleship. And this was like, this is the thing you do out there, please do it. But, you know, that's not much about it. The last 18 months, I was doing Pasoro in China, Beijing, and the church was actually largely African.

Oh, wow. The team there knew my story. Like, when they were interviewing me, they knew my story. And they were good about it. I mean, though, like, the team was diversified. Yeah, but, yeah, so they, like, the church have been part of me, may receive me because they know me. like before they knew my story or that they know me as a person

what I don't know is that if a church advertised for a pastoral position and I applied it I don't know how they would take that currently I've applied for like a part-time theology teaching job somewhere and if they found

if they found my story out there I doubt if they would in any way like allow me in so yeah so there is suspicion i think is what would be the first thing that people would have and um yeah so largely know they will not accept me as a pastor unless they really know me and thankfully have a at a local church that have been part of which even though they didn't engage on it as much they were okay for me to be there that seems to make a huge difference

when there's when there's a relational connection a relationship established as the foundation and then somebody hears your story. I just feel like that just kind of it just deconstructs the barriers, the walls, the presuppositions people have.

Whereas if you front load your story with no relationship, especially in a conservative context, those barriers, people interpret it differently. They have all these suspicions, but when they know you, it just makes a big difference.

Actually, when I was in China, I met with these young, man from Camero, no, I think Guinea, Bissar, one of the West African country. And I came out to him. And before then, it was like the most homophobic person. He had even said that if their child came out as gay, he would have taken to one of the villages in Africa and ensure that they are reoriented back.

because how can you be gay? This is something you have gotten from out there. But then when he heard my story and he had known me for a while, for a moment it was like, oh, wow, I always think of these people to be out there. But I know you, Steve, like, yeah, so I think I've seen, even with my story, when I have shared with someone who knows me, for a moment, someone is like, oh, okay. I never at one moment thought about whatever I hear out there to be this person. Like, I can never put a face on this except what I see online.

So, yeah, I think there's, yeah, as you say, it makes a lot of difference. Only now, I mean, that's why one of my desire actually, even with found, is to increase visibility of our stories for people to just know. that there are stories out there like this and that there are actually people who are trying to be faithful and that there are people who are pastors and really great pastors just experiencing this does not in any way mean anything different it just means as far as someone satisfies what the Bible call

like, as a pastor to be, then that should be it. And so, yeah, I really hope that with more visibility and all that, most of us can have a better, better landing. Like when I was doing my biblical studies course, one of my greatest anxiety was I thought, no matter how well I do in class, I may never be accepted as a pastor somewhere. And that was like, oh, wow.

So I'm thankful to God for like 18 months that I did in China because that was really God telling me, you know, I got you. Like you can still serve in the charge. And now that I'm back in Kenya, I still long for to be a pastor, but I think my attention is more unfound at the moment. But yes, praying that a time will come when someone doesn't have to make themselves acceptable for them to be accepted. that we can it can be a general knowledge out there that's a whether whatever your sexual

orientation as far as you are submitted to the Bible then you should actually be able to go in anywhere so praying for the next generation well Steve man I just thank you so much for your your courage in what you do I just I don't know I we've never talked you know I just know you from social media, but just the last hour, I just see such Christ-like joy and hope in your heart. That's inspiring. That really is inspiring. And your courage to do the ministry you do, I'm sure it comes with many challenges.

So thank you for what you do. And thank you for being on Theology and Raw. Again, I would encourage people to check out your website, foundafriek.org. Check it out. And if you feel led to support Steve. By the way, I didn't plan on mentioning your website. You definitely didn't ask me to promote it. So this was not like some sort of like, you know, hidden promo to support Steve.

But I, your ministry is extremely valuable and unique. And so you're doing good work. So thanks so much for being a guest on Theaul Geron, Steve. Thank you so much. Also, I pray that's also just with this recording. the time I was a guest on Life On Side B at also New Kinship Podcast and had people like bump on my story out there

and then they ended up finding me here in Kenya like I have seen how something like this which may look like it's not meant for like Kenyans and you find someone out there who listens to this and gets connected to us So just saying if there's someone out there who is, like, from Africa, please reach out. Let's talk and let's see how we can just be a blessing to ourselves, but also to, like, the larger African continent as far as the issues of faith and sexuality are concerned. So thank you, Preston.

Always appreciate this. And, yeah, too many more of this. Yeah, blessed to you, brother. This show is part of the Converge podcast network. Are you looking for news with a faith, base perspective, then tune in to the pour over today. The podcast that delivers the world's biggest news stories through a lens of faith every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. On the pour over today, you'll hear the same news and headlines as the major outlets, but interpreted

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