Theology in the Raw - Orphanages vs. Family Care and the Problem of White Westerners Doing Ministry in Africa: Brent Phillips

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Brent leads Cherish Uganda with his wife Leah. Cherish was formally an orphanage and now functions as a spiritual formation community center using medical, education and family strengthening to reach the community we serve. In this conversation, Brent tells the story of how Cherish changed from being an orphanage to a holistic education and care center, where HIV kids and their families were being reached with the gospel. We talk about the problems of white westerners ministering in Africa, pros and cons of short term mission trips, and why family based orphan care is much better than orphanages. Follow Cherish Uganda on Instagram @cherishuganda Consider supporting this valuable ministry at https://www.cherishuganda.org Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in Iran. My guest today is Brent Phillips, who leads Cherish Uganda with his wife Leah. Cherish was formerly an orphanage and now functions as a spiritual formation community center using medical education and family strengthening to reach the community that they serve. If you remember from a couple weeks ago, I had Brandon Stiver on the podcast to talk about the difference between orphanage-based orphan care versus family care, caring both for orphans and their families. And he said that Brent over at Cherish Uganda has done a fantastic job making that transition. And so I've been talking with Brent, learning about his ministry at Cherish Uganda, and just, I'm really impressed with it because I know there's,

we all know it, right? I mean, there's a lot of ministries or, you know, uh, things that Westerners, white Westerners can do in Africa that are maybe well-intended, but it can actually produce long-term harm in the community and, and, and the ministry work they're striving to do. Uh, but there's people that are doing it well, who have learned from their, you know, learned from making mistakes, learning how to do things well,'s people that are doing it well, who have learned from making mistakes, learning how to do things well, that are actually bringing a positive effect on the communities that they seek to serve. And Cherish Uganda is among the best ministries I've seen that are doing this. So I'm actually going out to visit. I'm bringing a team, my wife and I are bringing a team out

to visit Cherish Uganda, not to go tell them how to do ministry, but they go to learn to serve alongside the people there. And I'm excited to visit Cherish Uganda among several other ministries that we'll see in Kenya and Uganda. So I'm excited for you to get to know Brent. He's just done an amazing job doing ministry in Africa. So please welcome to the show for the first time. You want Brent Phillips. All right. Hey, Brent. Welcome to Theology in a Row for the first time. I'm really excited about this conversation. Thanks, Preston. Yeah. So just to set the context, I mean, we just chatted a couple days ago because my wife and I were bringing some people over to Africa to visit several ministries,

one of which is Cherish Uganda, which you helped. Did you help start it, right? It wasn't already in existence. Yeah. No, no. Actually, it was a group of a church network out of the UK that started it. And so we joined at about the three-year mark. Okay.

Okay. Can you take us back to when you started, when you moved to Uganda? And then I would love to hear how, I know you've kind of have rethought some ministry questions. Like what does it mean to be a Westerner doing ministry in Africa? And I know you've had kind of a shift in thinking along many lines, along the lines of many different aspects of what that looks like. So, yeah, we, you know, I came right out of school and started on staff at churches. I was over the course of 25 years before we moved to Africa on staff at three different churches. And it was local, local church ministry, pastoral care, you know, children's ministry, then lead pastor. And that was, that was just the path that we thought we'd be on forever. ministry and then lead pastor. And that was, that was just the path that we thought we'd be on forever. And then we had sent a family to Uganda as missionaries from our church. And so, you know,

we kind of did that old thing, sent them out there. And after about six months, they called and they're like, this place is crazy hard. You know, they went there with kids, their whole family. And so my wife and two other gals hopped on a plane and went out there and just spent 10 days with them, just encouraging them and praying with them and seeing their life and getting a picture of what does it look like there for you. And then they had heard about this little HIV orphanage out near Entebbe. And so they thought, you know, on the way to the airport, let's just stop by and see that place. So they did. They got a 45 minute tour with the gal who was running it and popped on the plane and got home. And my wife could not stop talking about this little place.

And they saw so many mysteries while they were there, but this little place just kind of grabbed her heart and the spirit did something. And so we thought, well, let's press into that. So we started pressing into that relationship, started giving money and pray or kind of the typical things churches do. One thing led to the next, and we started to realize, I think we should be there. And so it was January of 2010 when she went. It was by Father's Day of 2010. We decided God wants us there. And then by November of 2010, we had transitioned the

church, sold everything, hopped on a plane and ended up in Uganda. So not part of the plan, didn't do any sort of like, you know, missionary training, like just nothing. Like we raised all the money we needed in six weeks. And it was just this kind of lightning, which is typically the way God works in our life. I've met my wife, Leah, and I, we've been married 32 years. I met her six weeks later, we were engaged. Seven months later, we were married. And that's kind of how our life has been. So we end up in Uganda, not really knowing a whole lot. But one thing that someone told us that we took to heart was go up there as a student. Don't think you have anything to bring to that place. If God's going to drop you there, let him tell you what you have once you're there and coming from a place of a student.

And so we did that. In fact, we remember the first Sunday we were there, we'd gone to a local church and we drove into Camp Paula and we had lunch at a pizza place of all things. And there was a group of women sitting at the table next to us and they were also missionaries. And somehow we strike up this conversation, they find out we just showed up and they said, Hey, just remember, whatever you think is going to happen here, like it's not just, just wipe that clean and just realize it's not going to be what you think it is and just hold on for the ride. And so that's really kind of the way we stepped in, thankfully, and just started to realize very quickly that this kind of ministry

mindset that we had invested 25 years in, like there was no going to be this replication of, oh, this all worked here, just drop it over. And I knew that wouldn't really work. But then once you get there and you realize, oh yeah, it really won't work. Like this is,

this is a whole new, a whole new thing. So yeah, that's, that's how we showed up. And we didn't have a job description. We didn't have a paycheck. We had raised our own money.

We didn't have, we didn't know what we were going to do. Jairus didn't know what we were going to do. It was just, Hey, we feel like this is what the spirit is doing. And we went, so, you know, as people look at that, like you guys are idiots. Um, and you know, there's a fine line between faith and stupidity. So hopefully we are on the right side of that line. Was that, is that unique to Uganda or this ministry that the, the thought that you have all these ideas of what you're going to do and you just need to table all those thoughts? Or do you find that pretty common among most people that go overseas? I think it's pretty common.

There's definitely some good training and good stuff that can happen beforehand that can help with that where we just kind of like hit us like a truck because we yeah didn't do properly do you know looking back we wish we had done a lot more of that coming in um i think it's very common okay you know part of it you just you just don't know what you don't know yeah tell us about what cherish uganda was when you got there um specifically and then take us through your journey what what is it now and and why why the change in philosophy of ministry yeah it was an orphanage for kids with hiv so there was a big issue happening in the country where and there's still some of it for sure um happening but this idea of h HIV meant death sentence carries all kinds of stigma, lots of myths and lies associated with it. And so families weren't really knowing what to do,

were fearful, were dropping kids off at hospitals and bolting, leaving kids along the side of the road, hoping somebody finds them. And so what made sense to us at the time was why don't we gather all these kids together? Let's put them in a place that's safe, a place where we can feed them. We can educate them. We can take care of their medical needs. This is the best path forward. And so that's what we did, which is what orphanages all around the world have done. And so once you get into that path and

you start just you start getting better and better and better at that it's like yeah this is great this is great i had more kids more kids more staff and the thing starts to grow well then you start to start to ask yourself some questions like first of all how come there's really not orphanages in the west like there was some reason why that used to work in places like America and Europe, but now it doesn't. And then what about these kids once they have this kind of ideal, like these are our kids, these are cherished kids, and we will always be family. But then all of a sudden we had kids that started to kind of age out and you've educated them and you've done the best training you can. And then they walk through those gates out into that world. And we can say we're a family, but we're still an institution.

We can call those women moms and aunties, but they're not. Those were women who were paid to take care of me. Now they were loving and kind and great women. But every child knows that that's not my mom. Somewhere out there is my mom or family that didn't want me. And now how do I, how do I now step into what it feels like everybody else has this family structure and I don't. So those are the kinds of questions we started wrestling with and started to watch failures. The kids that they're like, they're living what we would assume for years in our care with this, this relationship with God,

that seems great. And they're taking their medication and they're treating each other kind. And they're doing all the things you, the ball, the boxes you're checking like, yeah, this is what we want. But then they step out into the world and it doesn't continue.

Now, not for all of them, but for many, many. And so then you start looking at the research and you started doing continue now not for all of them but for many many and so then you start looking at the research and you start doing your homework and realizing uh institutionalized care is not a good thing like that they're just not good for kids it's not good for attachment and development and relationships and emotional i mean just start the i mean, it is vast, the data that speaks to the problem of children growing up in an institution, no matter how good the institution is, versus a family. And so that's when we started to realize we've got to find family.

We've got to find family. So we started digging into records that the original team had started with good files and started, we call it family tracing. It's like, okay, here's this kid. What information do we know now? Let's go figure out if we can find an aunt and uncle, a grandmother,

a mother, somebody that's related to this kid. And what's crazy is we actually resettled about 125 children into family. Most of them into some sort of kinship care, some sort of blood relative. There was six we did not. There was six we did adopt out. And then we had six in foster care

that we couldn't find anybody for as well. So basically 12 kids out of 120, 10% we could not find a home for. Wow. But as far as blood relative, but 90% had a family member that we found. And this is a course of two years. This is maybe longer to really walk through the process.

It's probably longer from when we started with the first child to the last one, like it's multiple years. It's not a quick, like, Oh, Hey, guess what?

We found your aunt meets this guy. He's your nephew. And here you go. We'll share a meal together and we'll see you later. It's a long process and a long journey to reunite kids that somehow ended up separated from each other. I could imagine. Well, and tell me if this is just not true. It sounds like it might not be true.

I could imagine that the kid's been in an orphanage. He's got friends. He has relationships. He has people loving on him. And then he has some distant relative that shows up one day and like, all right, this is your new home. And what if that distant relative is an alcoholic or neglects them? Or just because they're a blood relative doesn't mean they're going to be caring for them well. doesn't mean they're going to be caring for them well.

So tell us about that assumption. Is being raised in the house of a blood relative usually, always, sometimes better than their life in an orphanage? It depends. Generally, it is. What we found was we started doing what we called family days. So once we found family, we'd have these family days where family would come and visit. We'd make the introductions on the chairs, grounds, meals and playing games and dancing and just having an afternoon together. And so these family days would start to happen.

And what was remarkable was the ones and we didn't obviously find all the families. And then we started family days would start to happen and what was remarkable was the ones because and we didn't obviously find all the families and then we started family days we started family days okay you know so there's some kids we had family members for and some we did not their family weren't there and to watch the response of those kids whose a family member did not show up heartbreaking just tear your heart out because they're like wait i mean they have somebody who's come to see them but not not me i mean just watch that and then there was lots of steps but one of the step further down the road was we go visit on the now where the that say that aunt lives and then we start to build that relationship and then it eventually gets to the point where that child

will stay the night the weekend with that you know and it's just kind of this this transition and you would go to some of these homes that are dirt floors no no running water no electricity far out deep deep village and then at cherish you know there's you're getting three square meals a day you're getting you know we got playgrounds like you're getting all the stuff but when these kids were going away and spending time with families and these other ones were not they were again devastated like they would rather be with family in what you would look at as a condition like this is not such a good living condition they would rather choose that than be at the place where all the comforts are so even at a as an eight-year-old, they could differentiate,

oh, that's my family and those people want me. This is not, despite the shininess of what I see. And so some of those situations, great, amazing reconnection, didn't even know that child was alive or they just were hoping they'd get educated eventually come back and so some really great situations um some terrible yeah terrible and what do you do in those situations if it's terrible like because of like abuse just or poverty or abuse neglect poverty addiction you name it um so then then you start working with that family to figure out, like, is there somebody else? Because obviously, clearly, just because we found you,

the aunt first, doesn't mean you're the one. So then you start finding somebody else. And then you start working with those family members because we found that some of those family members did want to change and wanted someone to help them move their life forward some of them did not and so we we did have a couple that we actually emergency you know pulled those children back okay all of this all in line with the government and social worker you know all like we weren't rogue on any of this um so we were

involving local officials all along the way so there was a couple where like this is terrible like this is this is not the best place and we have to bring this child back so so yeah it's not all roses um the end of the day when you look at this large chunk of children better for most of them but look would you say on average and this is something i think brandon said that yes you have individual cases where the whatever family environment might might not be as good as the orphanage but if you take statistical average and generalities it's he said it's just not it's not dispute it's just like it's not debated like the data is extremely clear that growing up and aging out an orphanage is going to be worse than

being raised in the family right yeah and so yeah the data states that and then from one who's did it on the ground and you know we've been with cherish 13 years and have seen it play itself out. Completely agree with that statement. So your goal was to basically not have any more orphans living full-time. No more kids living on site. Did you reach that goal? I forget. Are you almost there? We are finished. We had two that just now aged out. and one is out living on his own and one they're both living on their own but one of them is actually working for us and on our staff oh

those are the final two yeah okay so tell us about cherish uganda now uh i was just would you describe what you guys do the other day i was we were all just blown away at just how awesome this ministry sounds, at least from a distance. And we'll, you know, we'll see it firsthand in a few months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So basically we, we turn, you know, our mission used to be that we provide hope and a future for children living with HIV. Like that's what we did.

We were all about kids with HIV, giving them hope and a future. That's what we did. We were all about kids with HIV, giving them hope and a future. And then we started to realize what we really were is we were a ministry that really focused on kids with HIV and caring for them and hoping along the way we're going to do some discipleship. And so we've really flipped the model now. And so we've really flipped the model now. And now we are purposed to be a ministry that is all about a closed system, is now a community center. We're now a resource center for the families that we have transitioned kids back into home, but also the community with which we live. And so people come through our doors with the felt need of, you know, they want to have a baby or they got some medical condition or they want their kid to be educated or fill in the blank and once they come through that door with that need our staff starts investing in them well beyond that need knowing that our number one goal is spiritual transformation that's why we exist so a complete flip and not that the old way was like what was those people thinking at the time like that's that's what we

felt was like this is the best thing and then then all of a sudden, you just start to realize, wait, it's not. And rather than just dig our heels in and go, we don't really know what that looks like. And are people going to continue to give if we don't have kids on site? And hey, give $49 a month to this little Johnny boy kind of thing. No, we're going to risk those things and kind of move into a whole new space. Because this is what we feel God's calling us to do. So kids show up. It's almost like a school.

During the day, it's filled with – Okay. So you have tons of kids that are still there. They're just not staying there full time. They go home to their families at night. And then you also have – you said is there like a hospital or what kind of medical care? Yeah. So we have just kind of three main arms, education, healthcare, and family strengthening.

But with education, it's a school. We used to, again, used to be a Ugandan school where we taught all the Ugandan curriculum. We were like every other school around. We endeavored to be the best we could be. So I think we were a higher quality than most of the schools around us. But we were still doing the same thing. When COVID came, Uganda shut down schools for two years, the longest of any country globally. And so what that did for us is it enabled us to kind of take a deep breath and go is this what we want to continue doing is this and we ended up shifting things completely and now our

school is a basically a neurodevelopment center and we focus a lot on processing abstract thinking skills training and again all under the umbrella of discipleship and so yeah every day those kids come in they roll in at 7 30 in the morning and they leave at like three 34 o'clock and they love school. They love school because it's, I'm getting fed there. I am safe here. I am loved and cared for here. Yeah. So it is a, it's great. Cause you just, it's just the, you know, the sound of the school and the playground and kids, which is great.

And then onsite we have a hospital. And that hospital is a 24-hour, seven days a week hospital. What we do not have is an operating room. So that's, you know, next phase. But we deliver babies and we do things that you wouldn't do in a normal kind of, you know, urgent care kind of situation here in the States. But we, again, it was all within the guidelines of what uganda lays out that we handle tropical diseases and we handle accidents and burn victims and babies being born we just started the maternity

actually in uh december december 1st and we've already had over 40 babies born. And then we have 72 moms that are in our maternity program. Because again, we don't want you to come in. We just, you just deliver a baby and you're out. Like as soon as you find out you're pregnant, we want you connected because we want to build a relationship with you as a mom. So we're going to work all the way through the whole prenatal, the birth, anten antenatal immunizations

the whole thing and building all within the context we want to build a relationship with this mom and ultimately this family and so then then our social work our family strengthening department that's they kind of work within both the hospital and the school but they're the they're the ones that are doing home, they're the ones that are doing home visits. They're the ones that are doing trainings. We do lots of trainings, you know, hygiene trainings and medical does a lot of trainings, um, just random nutrition trainings and whatnot. We do personal finance trainings. We do trauma-based care, um, parenting. Um, you know, we just have a whole list of training. So our, our social work team is actively training people and teaching people. But at the same time, they're in all these homes and working with these families and sitting and watching life happen and just saying, we're here to partner with you in all this.

Can you tell us how big of a problem is HIV, I guess, specifically in Uganda? Like, is it a huge crisis? Is it getting better? Is it getting worse? And then also, how do kids get HIV? Is it basically if their mom has HIV, then they're just born with it? Yeah, so HIV, it continues to be a problem. Where it's not a problem, well, it's always a problem. But we can control it really, we can control those viral loads really well with good medication. And that those that they're they're called ARVs, antiretroviral drugs. Those ARVs we get through a grant from the U.S. government.

The U.S. government gives about four hundred and fifty million dollars a year to Uganda for HIV and AIDS care. So we get a piece of that slice. And so we're able to free test HIV and AIDS care. So we get a piece of that slice. And so we're able to free test kits and free medication. And so if you're on the medications, which you have to take twice a day, so our clients all take seven in the morning, seven at night. And sometimes it's like a handful of pills,

but twice a day for the rest of your life. And good nutrition, good water you know intake just taking care of yourself you will live a good full life and when when you come to cherish like the school is full of kids with hiv but you're gonna go where's the sick ones i don't even see them because it's it's well under control so it is a problem um in in the country if people don't have access to the drugs. And it's also a problem because of the stigma. And so there are people who have access to the drugs but won't take the drugs because they know if somebody sees me taking medication twice a day,

they're going to know I have HIV and then they're not going to be near me and then the social stigma kicks in. So there are people who have access to the drugs, but just won't take them. And in that culture, especially in the village culture where we are, you know, you'll have a small room, that one room house where there's six, eight, maybe 10 people living in there. So there's not like these private places you can keep your meds and private places you can take your medication. So it makes it, it makes it difficult. And then in a situation like ours, which is a fishing

community, it's even more prevalent because you have these men that fish all night. And then during the day, they got nothing to do. And you have a lot of women with a lot of children that are desperate to feed their kids. And for a couple dollars, they'll have their little moment and that mom gets her a couple bucks and so she's feeding her kids but obviously in settings like that hiv just runs rampant so the prevalency rate in uganda is around six percent as a whole but in places like these fishing communities like where we are you'll get prevalence rates 60 70 sometimes higher oh gosh wow yeah because the lack of access of drugs and because just the prevalence of just sexual contact everywhere this as far as kids you know there's a couple different ways obviously you can you can

contract it the main way in uganda the main way of transmission through HIV of HIV is through mother to child during birth. And what's crazy is that mom is in the womb or that, that baby's in the womb of that mom. And you think in all the blood's got to be all flow. It's not that baby is not, does not have HIV. The HIV is contracted as the baby goes through the birth canal. So if you give birth in a clinic that

understands that and takes care of everything that needs to be done prenatal and during delivery that baby has a really high chance of being born hiv negative which is why we now do births in our hospital because we can stop that and then the second you know the second way it's transmitted is through sexual contact. And so with the kids that we deal with and the kids that have HIV, it's not from some consensual sexual relationship. It's because they were abused by someone with HIV and child abuse, sexual child abuse just runs rampant in that country. And it's very, it's almost normalized. Like we had a situation where one of our students, our girls, because our teachers know you're not here just to teach, like you're here to build relationships.

And one of our students had shared with the teacher that her uncle was raping her. They use the word defile. My uncle's defiling me all the time. defile. My uncle's defiling me all the time. So our social work team, then, you know, they don't just show up and knock on the door, but they start, you know, they know the family to figure out when the uncle's not going to be there. Cause uncle lives with them. Cause many people live in the same house. They show up to the mom and sit down with her. And the mom's like, I know, but what am I going to do? It's my husband's brother. If I say something, then my husband is going to get mad. And then me and the kids might end up out of this house and homeless. And then what? So it's, it's, it's not the simple, like just call the police and

this is handled. And so we're constantly working through those kinds of situations with our students and our community all the time. How do you address that? Yeah. If that's such a common situation, what do you do? That's got to be horrifying to, yeah. Yeah. In that situation, we start figuring out, okay, how do we keep your daughter safe?

Like, let's figure something out. Like, maybe she's got to start sleeping in your bed every single night. Like let's, let's figure out this situation. Now let's work with you and figure out how are we going to protect you? But we're going to stop this uncle from doing this kind of behavior. And then that's, it's many conversations and it is involving trusted police.

Eventually we got that guy arrested. He was arrested. He's in jail. So it is illegal. It's illegal. You tell the authorities, they're not going to say, well, what are we going to do? But they're like, no, we need to stop that. That's not right.

Well, yeah, the problem is money talks a lot in that country. So we have had a lot of problems with influential people in the community basically paying off or getting out of the cafe, staring away from the accountability that they should be held to. So it's not quite as cut and dry as that. We now, after many years of being there, we have a really good relationship with local government as well as national government um but those things are a little easier now than they were at the beginning just because of the relationships we've built but it's still hard it's not no situation is clear-cut and easy and like yeah we do this this and this and this is taken care of what so you you you're back so So when I looked on your website, Cherish Uganda, I mean, all the leaders that are running the place are all, they look Ugandan or at least African. They are. You are no longer there.

I mean, you're full time with Cherish, but you're not living there. Like, I would imagine that was intentional. Like, you didn't want to be the white Westerner that just is the CEO forever there and always kind of run into place. Can you talk to us about just some of your big picture kind of maybe shifts in your philosophy of ministry? What does it mean to be a Westerner living in Africa, doing ministry in Africa? And what are some changes in your philosophy of ministry that happened over your time there? Yeah. So the original team had always had this vision that we run by locals eventually, which was

great. So there was nine people who moved from the UK to establish Cherish, bought the land, bought 21 acres and started building buildings and started rolling. By the time we showed up three years in, there was only two. So seven had already transitioned, some in other ministries into the country of Uganda and then some back to the UK. And so then eventually after a couple of years,

those two left and went back to the UK and it was just our family. Okay. And we, we also knew from when we showed up, we're not going to live here forever. Like we had the dream that we're going to be in this ministry forever, but we knew that at some point this has to be local led, have whatever that looks like. We might move offsite.

We might, we didn't really know what it looked like, but we knew that we're, yeah, we can't sit here as the, we as a CEO and we run this place and our little minions do their job. So there was a young man by the name of Sam. He was the first teacher we ever hired.

And, you know, in leadership, you're always looking like, who's the next leader I'm betting on? You know, and so you're constantly doing that always. And Sam, we just knew that there's something about that kid. So we ended up taking him out of that teacher role he became my assistant and just for multiple years just my shadow and doing life with him he was single at the time um and just working through even like like it was just intense discipleship with him of course there was leadership training and ministry stuff but so once we had lived there for it was at at the six year mark where we really felt like,

okay, it's time. It's time for this leadership team to step into this spot. And it's time for us to step out. And one of the reasons that brought us back to the States was we were at the point where the board, we basically realized if we're going to grow, we have to be somewhere where we raise money. Like you can't, you can't, you can't push this thing forward, building buildings and doing, you know, putting infrastructure up to make this thing happen if we're there. So that we used to, we lived in Africa and we'd fly back about every year and a half or so to the States. And now we've kind of flipped that. And now we are living in Austin, but we go back every quarter.

So every three, four months we're back. So we don't do any ministry. Like my wife and I, we don't ever go on home visits. We don't ever go out and do ministry in the community. Now we live life in the community. Like we'll go buy chapatis and sodas and, you know, we, we, you know, live life in there. But as far as ministry things, we, we don't, we, everything we do is all on site and it's for us, it's all based on staff development. So if you take a look at our schedule when we're there, it's just pouring into staff,

pouring into staff, pouring into staff. Why don't you do it? Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah. No, go ahead. I know the question you're going to ask. When the white guy shows up, there's just this instant, what do you have for me? What do you have? The continent of Africa has had billions and billions of dollars of aid dumped into it.

Billions. And there are some neat things you see like wow that's really cool and that's really cool but then you also like it's not billions and billions and billions of dollars cool like where did all that money go and there's just so much money that goes into that country and just it like evaporates i don't know what happens to it but there's just a lot of shady things that happen there's just a lot of shady things that happen. There's just a lot of, frankly, a lot of us just wasted. And so we have found that when we start showing up, it just changes the dynamic of everything and people start wanting things. And then all of a sudden this relationship is now based on what I can get. And so then you feel like if I'm actually

going to minister to this person, I better give this thing to keep them coming into what we're doing or they're not going to ever spiritually transform. And so you didn't turn into this kind of transactional relationship. And so we just realized we're making life difficult when we show up at a home visit with our social worker and we sit down with the kid and mom, like a true conversation is not happening there. Really? It's all skewed because

i'm there so like when you guys come like as much as you're going to want to go on a home visit yeah like you're not gonna i mean you're gonna go in the community and you get to see and be a part of the community but you won't go on a home visit because it'll just, just your white skin messes it up. It just messes it up. So we just realized that our focus has to be staff development, staff training. And as we invest in our team, then that investment starts to flow out into what they're doing with our

community. And so the only thing that we do that isn't direct, not the only thing that we do that isn't direct, not the only thing, the main thing that we do that is directly to our staff is I do pastoral training with all the local pastors. So local pastors will come and I'll do just, you know, it's just random stuff, like whatever, whatever they're working on or whatever they're worried about, or we do a lot of stuff as we're training our staff. and then they often will kind of push back against it just because it's so culturally different.

So then I often do training on that when I show up. All right, let's talk about what our staff have been talking about to you, and let's kind of work through this. And so it's been a great thing. At first, it was antagonistic as they really felt threatened. And I wasn't doing any training with them. I was just training our staff. But then once we started building relationships, and then we started having that staff,

that pastoral training in our living room once a month, then that started to build this relationship. And now we have a great relationship with all these local pastors. And people are always saying, why doesn't church just start a church? Why aren't I going to start a church? like again the white guy shows up like hey like everybody will come because they're gonna what are we gonna get if we go to the white guys church so we are there to support the ministry that's already happening so whether it's medical

education so family strengthening, pastoral training. We have a lot of soccer played on our facility. We do a lot of sports stuff. There's just so many opportunities. And our goal, my wife and I, we just pour into the staff, pour into the staff, pour into the staff. That's really the shift that we've made. I mean, it makes sense. And I and I've, you know, I've been to

Africa, well, twice now, but in other countries where it's, it's very similar, where your, your whiteness, your Western-ness, it just, it just creates a, a weird dynamic. Um, just like what you said, or even like, if, and this is something I learned recently, like, um, yeah, if you go into a village, a community or whatever, and even if you're like hanging out with a pastor, you're preaching at a church, you're just out there doing quote unquote ministry. The person you're doing it with when you leave, now people look to him like, oh, you have a Western connection. So what do you have for me? And it creates this weird power dynamic, right? I mean, that could be really discouraging right there for people that for sure want to go and help and do ministry it's like yeah and is that pretty is that pretty universal across africa from what you know i mean i know your experience in uganda yeah okay yeah so

like i just got a whatsapp message from guy, like literally 10 minutes before I hopped on and he starts off with praise God, pastor Brent. And then he talks about, I'm an evangelist and I do this thing. My ministry is this name and I invite you into partnership of this great vision that I have. So will you please contact me? Like that happens all the time, all the time, because there is this kind of general. And the truth is, I have so much more money than they have. So much more. Like, it's crazy when you look at the wealth disparity.

It's massive. And so I think that their general view is even the basics of, okay, you fly over here three or four times a year. Right. I had a staff member ask, how much does that cost? $1,800. Nobody has asked that question. Yeah. No, no.

I mean, our leadership team have asked that question because we actually fly them a couple of times. At least once a year, we'll fly a leadership person out here. But this is a maintenance guy. And he asked the question and I told him, and he was just, we're sitting around a table with like six other maintenance guys and they were just like, whoa, like blown away. And so that next day he was working

on a road to the shovel and I just grabbed an extra shovel and started working with him. And his name is Daddy. I said, Daddy, I got a question for you. I said, you heard that amount of that plane ticket, like that cost a lot of money. Do you think it'd be better that Lee and I don't come and we just send the money and

we use it for ministry here rather than spending that kind of money? And this kid, he stops and he says, I need to think about this answer. And he sits and leans on his shovel. And it was probably two or three minutes of silence, which seems like an eternity when you ask somebody a question. And he looks at me and he says, you know what? You need to keep coming because if you don't, it's just like a mom or dad who send money and never show up to have a relationship. So as much as it costs, we need to keep spending that money.

Yeah. And that kid got it. Like he, he understood. But so, yeah, there's just, it's, I understand if I was, if I was living in Uganda and some white guy kept flying three, four times a year. And I watched these buildings pop up and these, this infrastructure start to be built at this place. And I knew that,

okay, he's the connection for that. So even if he doesn't have a lot of money, he must know a lot of people who have a lot of money. So why not ask? And so it's, I, we get asked all the time. Cause it it's just that's kind of the way

the culture the culture is i've had the same experience with uh some ministry partners were involved with in in in a it's another majority world country and and same thing it's like it's i'm like hey we're gonna bring a team we have five people come on over that's a lot that's a lot of money just on flights let alone you know you know, what it costs to just your driver and food and lodging and everything. Like if we just, would you rather just said, it's cut you a check for like 20 grand. But they said the same there. The relationship is, is more, as long as it's a relationship, not just come paint a fence,

leave, never see each other again. It's like, okay. Yeah. If you're just going to come be labor, yeah, send us the 20 grand. We can hire locals. We can get dispensed at much cheaper. We can hire a bunch of people to build an apartment complex with that much money. But if there's a relationship, that relationship is, you can't put a price on it. is you can't put a price on it.

So going back to just ministry specifically, let's just say Uganda, since that's what you can speak directly to, but I'm sure this will apply to just Africa as a whole on some level. What are some big picture do's and don'ts then? So people listening, they want to go on a short-term trip, they want to go on a long-term trip,

they're sending money to a missionary, whatever, they're somehow involved or want to go on a short-term trip. They want to go on a long-term trip. They're sending money to a missionary, whatever. They're somehow involved or want to be involved in Africa. What are some big picture do's and don'ts as somebody who has white skin from the West? Yeah. I mean, I think if you're sending money, you just need to know what that money's going towards. Do your due diligence and find out what is the purpose of this ministry and what are you spending your money? Ask them their budget. Like, don't be afraid to ask those questions.

You know, we feel like, oh, I can't ask those kinds of questions. Yeah, you can. Legally, as a nonprofit, the books are open. Like there's a lot of information that you can ask for a nonprofit. So don't be afraid to ask questions to figure out where's this really going. I mean, there's big organizations.

You got the world visions campus crusades doing massive, amazing work. Like the, the, the scope of the work is amazing. You also just with those, you have to be comfortable that you're not going to know the people who are on the ground doing the work. And if you're comfortable with that, you're comfortable with what they lay out and great. Then that's what you should do. But if you're giving going to know the people who are on the ground doing the work. And if you're comfortable with that and you're comfortable with what they lay out, then great. Then that's what you should do.

But if you're giving to a smaller organization like ours, like we're our budget center, a million dollars. And if you're working with a smaller organization like ours, you should be able to talk to the guy who's running the thing. Like you should have access to, Hey, tell me, what are some of the dreams you have? Like what, how can I be praying and get on some regular communication with that ministry?

Because from our end, we prefer that. I mean, I love this. If someone wants to write me a check and go, here, use this for ministry, I'll take it. But I would prefer that you write me a check and we start to engage in relationship about what it is we're doing. Not just your bank account for us. We really do desire the relationship. And I say, if you can go, go. There's nothing like putting your eyes on the work.

Nothing like it. Talk to us about short-term then. Because I would say the majority of people listening, that's probably more what they're going to do. So short-term do's and don'ts. Yeah. Yeah. So for us, uh, it is all about relationship. We put you to work, but you are working right alongside with our people doing what they would normally be doing. If you weren't there, I think, yes, show up, pick up a shovel, sit with, sit with kids, you know, do, do math homework, like get involved in it while you're there.

So you can actually see what you're doing. But I mean, so many people have said to us so many times, I just, if I could just come and sit and hold those sweet babies and pray for them for a week, that would be amazing. And I know, because you're already assuming that we don't do that. You're, you're, you're assuming we don't pray for these babies. And then when you come with your agenda, let me tell you what I'm going to give you without even asking the question, do you do this or do you not? And then when you show up at a short-term trip, like again, you're coming to partner. So you need to find out how can I help, not how can I do what I want to do when I show up? And every ministry is going to be different.

Like for us, what we need for you to do is be in relationship with our people. I can tell a security guard, man, thanks for this. This is amazing. Thanks for the work you're doing. I tell them that all the time. When you tell them that it means the world.

It's like when you talk to your kids and you say things and all of a sudden they come to you at the dinner table and say, I heard this thing from someone. So you're like, wait a minute, I've been telling you that forever. So there's just something about an additional voice that is speaking truth and speaking life over people. That is amazing. And then I would also say when you show up on a trip, be wary of a team that stops the work of a ministry that stops work. And then they just perform for you for a week and, and, and show you, you know, it's more of a production. You don't need that. Like what you need to see is what actually happens here. And then,

and that ministry doesn't need that because if, if we did that, then you're going to leave. And now we're a week behind in work because we just entertained you for a week. So when you show up, just fall right in. Um, one of the things we do that we learned early on is we don't do any photos for the first part of the week. So you can't even bring a camera onto chairs until Thursday because this little device just becomes a distraction as we know. And it's a distraction there as well. And we want relationship. We don't, we don't want you to be so concerned about you capturing the moment. We want you to actually be in the moment. And then we'll give you a couple of days on the end to now take some photos. But now it's based on a foundation of relationship you've you've ate with our people and you've worked with our people and you've laughed at our people and you've heard stories and then you've shared stories and now it's not just a you know this

is going to be so great on my my real kind of situation it's like no like talk about be real like right now like phone back at the hotel like this is what this is going to look like so we just relationship relationship relationship what are some well-intended things that short-term trips maybe not with your because i mean you're you have you you have like really strict kind of like here's what you're going to do you're not going to do this or whatever um for maybe other ministries that don't have those kind of in place like what are some things that you've seen short term trips do that uh again well intended but might actually produce more long-term harm yeah well well every everything that we have in place for teams is because we learned the hard way okay it wasn't like before teams we came up with this great plan it was like we started having

teams and went well that's not good and that not good. Like one of the things we will tell our teams is do not give anybody anything. Because what happens is you start meeting this kid and you find out this kid, you know, his, so we have a skills-based learning where our kids are learning skills. We have a computer lab. And so you might find out one of these guys, he's learned graphic design, but he doesn't have a computer. And you think, well, I have a computer. In fact, I have a computer back at the hotel that's kind of, well, what if I just leave it with him?

And then you now bring it the next day, then you give it to him. Well, now you have now further cemented the whole white man will give me things. And now all of a sudden, every other staff member has now seen that kid get a computer. And they're like, okay, now when I'm working with people, how do I now make sure my story starts tugging on some heartstrings and I can get some stuff as well? So we don't give anybody anything. Now, if you feel like the spirit of God tells you to give that computer to that kid, then we have you come to us. And now let's figure this out. And oftentimes what we'll do is we'll have you leave it.

And it might be a month. All of a sudden that computer is now available. And we sit down and say, hey, this computer, God has blessed us with this computer. And we feel like you are the right one to do it. So it's not some stranger that showed up. It's us that we have been resourcing people for ministry and for life for years and years and years.

So it doesn't change anything. Now what you miss out on is you don't get to hand them the computer and have the kid go, ah, this is amazing. That's more for me than them. I mean, that's like, right. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, so that, that's a big one. Um, and then the photo thing is a big one. Like it's crazy just how lost we get into our phones. Um, and even more so on a trip because people just want to capture it. You're having an amazing time and you want to capture the moment.

So of course capture the moment is great, but it comes at a large expense. And so we, you know, do that. We also found that teams can stay too long. Um, so we have you stay for a week. That's it. Cause after a week it becomes more of a burden for us to keep, to keep that rolling. It just starts to feel like the family that just stayed too long. Like, man, that family, when they came, it was great, but they stayed a bit too long. I wish they would have left early. That's kind of what it happens.

Where we want everybody to leave when they're feeling like this is amazing. I want more. I want more. Everybody leaving one more. And then always people come and without fail, not without fail, most of the time there's someone on the team who wants to move there and live there. Ah, this is great. They just do. And they start having those conversations. And I would say, don't have those conversations. If you feel like God wants that from you, go home. Pray about that. Get yourself out of the situation, then contact somebody and then see where that goes. But in the moment, I get it. Well intentions, emotions get crazy. And then another thing teams can tend to do is promise a lot of things. of the things teams can tend to do is promise a lot of things. I had a missionary tell us early on, like, just know you're going to be promised so many things by so many well-intended people. And you will be disappointed if you believe that all of those will happen.

Because people get excited. They show up and they get excited. We can do this and we can do this and we can do this. And they speak it as if it's already happened. And then many people will then go back and get back into their normal lives and it just it just kind of kind of goes away and well intended again but i would say again if there's something like that that's brewing in you go home pray about it then reach back out to that ministry and say hey when i was there i felt like god impressed upon me this can we have a conversation about it? Because, I mean, we lived without for years. And I can't tell you how many hundreds, maybe more, of unkept promises. Not because they're bad people. We just get caught up.

We just get caught up in the emotion. And we kind of get focused on what's here. Then we get back home. And it's just, yeah, I can't really do that. And I feel bad to actually say something. And then it kind of turns into what we wish it wouldn't i need to remind my team of that because i don't know if we talked about that the other night uh but that's that's good because yeah yeah it happens every time i mean i've been on enough you know trips and stuff where i know like you get that high you get the and then you come back and you're

angry at the american church because it's like you know for sure in nepal there's so much more and they don't have any money and look at all this stuff and then you get the, and then you come back and you're angry at the American church. Cause it's like, you know, in Nepal, there's so much more on fire and they don't have any money and look at all this stuff. And then you get discouraged, you know, and then it levels out and then you're back at, you know, target binder or whatever,

you know, $5 latte, sorry, but you know, so, and that's just, yeah, you know,

you can either live in perpetual guilt or you can move overseas full time, or you just kind of understand that like there's cross-cultural experiences are are awesome and complex and and you know are super helpful if you have the right mindset um what about i've always wondered this about what about like short-term teaching teams go over for two weeks do pastoral training seminars teach the book of romans to a bunch of pastors or something like that um are there is that good and helpful what are some possible a bunch of pastors or something like that. Is that good and helpful? What are some possible unforeseen dangers or something like that? I think they're very helpful.

Any kind of training, like when doctors come and train our medical staff, when teachers come and train our education staff, that specific focus training is great. As long as they're understanding we are here to train. We're here to give whatever knowledge we have and pass it on and just understand that cultures are so different yeah there'll be times when people will look at you like what are you talking about because it's just way too different way too different i mean as a as a pastor i showed up and realized my teaching style can't be the same

like it just can't. I was using illustrations that didn't make sense. And like, it was just totally different, but that took some time. That took some time to figure that out. So yeah, it's, it can be very, very helpful for sure. As long as people are really focused and understand that this is why I'm here. And would you say as long as there's not this expectation that oh this teacher comes and trains and then he leaves us a you know a bunch of money and and is that is have you seen that happen where there's

for sure and it happens yeah for sure and so anytime that we have those kinds of things we always communicate that to our staff and they know that just because someone shows doesn't mean they're leaving anything just so you know okay um and i think it's real important if whoever comes doesn't like so many times we look at you will see problems all around you in uganda and you'll go man if someone just did this and did this and do this it'd be easy fix like we look at these easy we think easy fixes and the truth is if it was an easy fix somebody would have already done it there's obviously deeper levels involved in that. So I think even as you come as a training, as a pastor,

like there's some things you'll hear and you'll be like, wait, your church does what you should just do this, this, and this, and this. And truth is it, it won't like it,

it takes relationship. You know, I've been working with these pastors for 13 years and there there's still some stuff that just gets me so frustrated. It's like, what is happening? This is so inefficient. What are you doing? Why is this? Did you read The Poisonwood Bible?

Have you read that book? No, I haven't. It's been years since I read it. I didn't finish it, but it was kind of that like western missionary it's it's a novel i think but it's i think it's based on a true story um but yeah about a missionary comes over and they see he sees and all the things are doing wrong even like like gardening he's like well i can grow crops way better back home and it doesn't realize the soil is different the bees are different the the irrigation is different and he can, the stuff that he could grow amazingly back home, he's like, nothing grows here, you know, even though it does. It's just, you're not like learning. You come over thinking I could do it better than them. Look at their crops are all falling apart. And I hope I represented that. It's been like 20 years since I read it. But yeah, that's it yeah so what about that like you come over as a teacher and could there be

this like power dynamic that's this assumption like oh these poor people they're poor and they don't know anything and i know all this stuff i want the seminary and i'm gonna come over and teach them yeah yeah yeah and it's interesting that like and it's like this all around the world like our our people see through that stuff you know that they can definitely sit there and go like, and it's like this all around the world. Like our, our, our people see through that stuff, you know, that they can definitely sit there and go, ah,

that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. But they won't say anything, right? Won't they? No, no, no, no.

Thank you so much. It's amazing. Thank you for what you came. Yeah. Thank you. In fact, there has been, and I have experienced this where the guy was up,

up teaching. The translator was telling everybody, and I have experienced this, where a guy was up teaching. The translator was telling everybody, don't listen to this guy. He does not know what he's talking about. And the pastor's just up there preaching and telling everybody how to do things. And everyone's nodding and smiling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they can see through it. It's that same idea.

Just come as a student. This is what I have to give. I don't know if it'll make sense even in this culture, but this is what I have to lay out. One of my first short-term trips I went on, I think it was my third trip, I was halfway through seminary. So I was 26 years old, maybe?

25 years old. Just gotten married. And I went to russia outside of um uh moscow and did like a two week teaching for with a bunch of pastors and uh these are like baptist pastors so that you know it was pretty personal it has a history of persecution like a lot of a lot of these guys had were you know were in prison persecuted for their faith or they got saved in prison they're tatted up and these guys are like these guys are hardcore like doing ministry in some really tough situations and here i show up in my you know suit and tie from right you know john mcarthur seminary i taught them the book of romans you know and and they were you know

they were thankful it was great like they actually did like the the, and they were, you know, they were thankful. It was great. Like they actually did like the, the knowledge that they were, they were the knowledge piece, you know, I was, you know, but I remember a couple of years later thinking back, I'm like, why was I teaching these guys? These guys are like saints, you know, like I'm sitting there teaching them. They're like 48 years old, you know, and golly, it was so fun. What was funny in that culture is they, and these guys are just on fire for the Lord, but like, um, cheating in that culture isn't, wasn't a big deal. Like that's just not, it's kind of, it's kind of like, uh, how comfort in America is just not like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, it's, it's, you know,

this is not a big deal or, or, or greed or gluttony or other things. Or in other countries they would look and like, what are you doing? Like, you know, um, and so I'm giving an, I'm giving an exam. Or greed or gluttony or other things. Or in other countries, they would look and like, what are you doing? And so I'm giving an exam. Here's all these hardcore pastors just cheating on each other. I'm like freaking out. What are you doing? No, no, it's fine.

It's not fine. You're sitting there cheating on the test. But even that, I was like, I come at it with my moral grid and you know and not realizing that culturally there's just a different kind of emphasis whatever but anyway yeah it's yeah it's fun you learn you learn over the years for sure yeah whenever we bring staff members here they're always amazed you know because there's stuff like i look around your neighborhood where's everybody oh they're all in their houses doing what oh like probably watching television or scrolling through their phone you know and for them the neighborhood looks abandoned totally abandoned and then and that just they just can't get around like wait

like how does this work where their culture is together all the time this big communal kind of thing outside eating cooking all outside so it's just those kind of shifts that yeah we think it's no big deal of course i come in i park my car in the garage and i go in the house i'm not supposed to engage with those people out there like yeah there's so much of that kind of stuff do you miss i go for a week yeah i love that like i've been in nepal several times and and in africa a few times and or even like middle culture, basically most places outside the West. It just seems like there's just so much more of a buzz, you know, you go around the city, you go around neighborhoods and it's just,

it's just, it's buzzing with people. Yeah. Life happens outside. You sleep indoors. That's the only thing you do indoors. Everything happens outside. Yeah. And we totally miss that. Every time we go back, every time we're like, why do we live in Austin, Texas? Every time. Because, yeah, we love that. I miss that.

Love that. Tell us, how can people find you and your ministry? And is there something, I mean, if people want to give, donate, is that something that you need or want? Or how can people help? Cherish Uganda. Yeah. What are your needs? Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. If you go to cherishuganda.org, you can check out our website and there's lists to give there. You know, as most ministries, our vision always outpaces the resource. So there's always more to be done. You know, we can talk about each one of those things, education, you know, healthcare, family strengthening, pastoral training. You pick one.

We got dreams pushing forward on all of them. Yeah, so we'd love for people to be involved. You know, we don't do a lot of teams. We do, I think this year we're just doing three. You know, we try to keep that kind of small. But if somebody wants to go on a trip, let's talk about it for sure. You know, if you get the first one

booked in for next year, then you're in. Like that's, we love to have people come. A team is anywhere from three to 12 for us. More than, it has to be at least three

and no more than 12 people. Okay. Those are a great way. Yeah. And then, if you want to sign up for a newsletter, just,

you'll just get stuff rolling in your inbox. It just kind of keeps you updated on what we're doing. Awesome. Well, thanks Brent for, uh, this time together and for your ministry. I can't wait to see you in a few weeks or a few, a few months in June and I'll get to see it firsthand. Yeah. That'd be awesome. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.