Theology in the Raw - Political Discipleship After Charlie Kirk: mike Erre

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

Join us for the Exiles in Babylon conference! April 30-May 2, 2026. Mike Erre is an author, podcaster, instigator, and a teaching pastor at Journey Church in Brentwood, TN. Mike began vocational ministry in 1999 as a student ministries and college pastor at Mariners Church in Irvine, Calif. Prior to joining Journey’s staff, he also taught at Rock Harbor (Costa Mesa, Calif.) and Mariners’ Mission Viejo, Calif. campus. He served as the senior Pastor at EV Free Fullerton and founded the VOX Community and podcast (now Voxology). Mike has published five books: The Jesus of Suburbia (2006), Why Guys Need God (2008), Death By Church (2009), Why the Bible Matters (2010), and Astonished ( 2014). He holds an M.A. in philosophy of religion and ethics from the Talbot School of Theology.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Does the church exist to change and transform culture, or does the church exist to be transformed and be faithful to Christ? And then thereby, through indirect witness, be salt and light to culture. I think that is the fundamental question that a lot of us have been wrestling with. I think there are loads of us asking, okay, what's the church for? Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Narah. This is an in-person episode I did with my friend Mike Erie in Nashville, Tennessee last month. This is a part of a series of several in-person episodes I did in the Nashville-slash-Franklin area. And this one was lively.

Oh, my word. Mike Erie is amazing. He has an MA from the Talbot School of Theology. And he is a teaching pastor at Journey Church in Brentwood, Tennessee. He previously served as a teaching pastor at several mega-churches. in Southern California, a Rock Harbor, Mariners,

E.B. Free Fullerton. He's the author of five books, including death by church, wins the title of the decade. And also a book called Why the Bible Matters. Mike is the host of the podcast, Voxology. It's kind of like a...

Voxology is kind of like a sister podcast to Theology Dara. I don't know if Mike will appreciate that. I think he will. I think he would affirm that. I forgot to ask him that when I was talking with them, But really enjoy this conversation. It's free flowing.

We go over the map, talk about some sensitive stuff, some important things. And I think you will enjoy it and be challenged by it. Do not forget that the exiles of Babylon conferences coming up, April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis, 2026. We are having deep dive conversations, folks, in several crucial topics. Topics like artificial intelligence. How should Christians think through AI? The gospel and immigration. What does the gospel have to say about immigration?

Not various news channels, not the right, not the left, but what does Jesus have to say about immigration? We're talking about mental health as well. How should we deal with what seems to be a growing mental health crisis, especially among teenagers? Christians and war. Got a dialogical debate discussing Christians in war. Really excited about that one. We're also wrestling with the question, is the Bible historically reliable with another dialogical debate?

We've got several amazing speakers lined up. Shane Claiborne, Sandy Richter, Peter Ends, Dan Allender, Shindway Williams, Paul Copan, and several others. All the information is that Theologyinar.com. Check it out and also take advantage of our Early Bird Special, where you will save, I think it's like $30 off registration if you register before January 10th. I know the holidays are upon us, so you're going to be busy with other things. So just make sure you take advantage of that Early Bird Special to save some money. and I can't wait to see you all there. All right, please welcome back to the show,

the one and only, Mike Erie. All right, Mike Erie, thanks for being on Thealjeanara. Well, Preston, hello. I'd have to travel to your neighborhood. You live pretty close here, right? 10 minutes. 10 minutes. Preston, I was 10 minutes away this morning thinking about you,

thinking about this. I've got my pumpkin spice latte flannel on. and I don't know I look good let's start with affirmations press in okay okay yeah first of all

as I've commented before you're very handsome secondly I love your interview style I love it and I've watched I would say I would say more than several

less than all of the episodes of theology in the raw those are my two what do you got for me I oh man first of all I think I told you it before

but we share a mutual friend Dr. Timothy Gombis and whenever I'm around you you have you sound exactly like him your cadence your tone even that everything you're Tim you are Tim so I feel like I'm hanging out

two of my friends right now oh I love that okay that's good and and for the record I'm just telling my buddy Chris who you just met that I was giving him a little background of who you are and I was like he was a dynamite teaching pastor at two like

SoCal megachurches and I said I think I think I don't and I don't know how public I don't know I'm just going to say it we can edit it say it that like everybody loves your teaching

but you maybe pushed them a little too hard on some of their ideological I think it was a pretty conservative environment Orange County pretty comfortable and it seemed like you didn't quite fit that context Yeah.

How would you describe your journey down there in the Orange County megachurch scene? It was a fantastic. So I'm from the Midwest. So it always struck me as weird to be an Ohioan wearing shorts and a t-shirt to be in these environments that were like really well-produced, very high degree of excellence. And I always thought that was part of the appeal. was, I just wasn't a, um, look at how expensive his tennis shoes are or, you know, it was flip you want to preach your sneakers. You weren't, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it didn't make that cut. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, maybe. I mean, if there was a Costco fashion, you know,

page, then, then maybe I'd be, I'd be on there. I think for me, and you do this too, so here's another affirmation. Um, the greatest, I have two huge values when it comes to my personal discipleship. One is humility and one is curiosity. And when those things operate together, then you hopefully, in the best possible way, try to let the text lead you. And the longer I followed Jesus, the bigger he got. And I realized that some of the inherited culture that we have benefited from and taught in, it just wasn't large enough. My friend, Tim Gombus, who evidently is my twin, had a great analogy. He said it's like moving from the gift shop in the in the front of a national park where you're seeing true representations

on postcards or posters or whatever of what's in the park it's like moving from the the gift shop into the actual reality and so when I when I began to the journey of understanding the kingdom of God as an experienced reality not just pieces of theology then all of a sudden you're in all of the tensions that Jesus introduces the tensions between hospitality and acceptance and but what if they're sinning and am I condoning their sin by associating with these people and all the things right yeah and so I don't know I just think that the downside of curiosity I don't know if you've experienced this too but when I read you know when I've read some of your books you just are this perpetually curious like hey is that true is that true

that is very disorienting for some folks who will receive that as undermining or drifting or backsliding or lacking conviction and yeah yeah and so i really the the scholars i most respect and most benefit from are those who are themselves in process on things because there is there should be a humility when we're dealing with like the sacred text there is no final interpretation you know it's it's it's a communal endeavor right and so i think the combo um um in in the best ways at allows us to ask great questions of the text, but sometimes those questions aren't, they don't sit well on people who have come to the faith for the certainty and the security and the cut and dryness. And I started there too. When you look at the stages of faith work

that's been done multiple different places, there is a universal stage of faith that is like, I'm here to remove mystery. And then there's another stage of faith. I'm here because of mystery. To explore mystery and enjoy this. The journey, yeah. Exactly. And the hardest part is for those two groups not to judge each other. Right. Yeah.

You know, because, yeah, go ahead. Do you think some of it's a personality? Like, I know there's certain personality types. I think so. That they just think in very black and white. Yes. And everything is either 100% or 0%. And there's other personalities that love that in between nature.

They love to explore. It takes them a long time to kind of like cultivate a really strongly rooted conviction. Are you an enneagram guy? Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Because I have large debates over what number I am. People love it. And I don't, I've, I've tested a certain number and people are like, you are not that number.

So what's your, I don't know, well, I'm at seven. No. You're not a seven. Nope, I'm a five. So I'm an introvert. I'm a massive introvert. You're not an introvert? No, I totally am.

No, no, dude. I will go home after today. Yeah, I'd be exhausted. Yes. Yes. Like I'm going to California this weekend to speak. And when I get back Sunday night at midnight, it will take me until Wednesday just to be human again. Okay. I just can't like, yes. So totally. So I'm a five, which means I'm in my head. I'm fascinated by ideas. And in health, I have some seven, eight sort of playfulness. My wife is a one. And one is black and white, clear or not clear. And it's interesting because to your point about it being personality, potentially personality driven she is cut and dry baby and i'm because i'm an idea guy i'm i'm sitting in

the processing and exploring of things and so i do think there's something to what you're saying because she and i even have had conversations where she's like you know it feels like you're liberal and i'm like hold on a second let let's affirm all the things right traditional marriage and the authority of the text and the necessity of christ and all the things but i'm asking questions around. I'm asking questions about, well, how do we best encourage the LGBTQ population? How do we deal with abortion that isn't from a top-down perspective but deals with the roots, not just the symptoms? How do we treat immigrants with humane kindness instead of just stamp in Romans 13 on anything that we do? And so I'm comfortable in those questions. Was Charlie Kirk a martyr

for the Christian faith, or was he a martyr for something else? And so I'm okay poking around. As are you. And I think some people just aren't. That's very disruptive. So my sweetie pie, as an enneagram one, just doesn't like sitting in those questions.

You know? So I was tested a friend of mine who is like a big enneagram guy, guru, like, I don't know if he's like an official coach or whatever, but he interviewed me on my podcast. I said, this is the best way to test you. Let's have a conversation for an hour. And I'm going to just ask you questions.

He says, 100%, you're a one. I got so many emails back from people saying, you're not a one. I think I'm a five. But then he even said, I mean, that would make sense because I think you and I have very similar approaches of life. But I heard he's even said, well, there are some overlaps between some things and ones and fives.

Sure. I don't think I'm a one. But here's the, oh, here's the thing. that got convinced me I was a five. There was one, I don't remember who it was from, but somebody said the core fear of a five is something called depletion. It's when you have no social battery left

and you feel utterly empty. And so when I was teaching in these large churches, I would teach five times a weekend or whatever. And I would be so empty and miserable on Mondays and Tuesdays that I just began to fear that. So I would begin hoarding social energy on Thursdays and Fridays, hoarding social energy. Yeah. So my, my, my wife is a teacher. And she would, she, I didn't even, I don't know how I didn't realize then how resentful she

became because I would be hoarding social energy, not wanting to do anything on the two days off she had because I was teaching five services. I had to just, I had to like, I had to manage social energy to the point where I could make it through five services. And, um, yeah. So for me, that word depletion spoke so powerfully because I was able to go back to my sweetie and say, I see why you were so angry. Because on Mondays, and, you know, this Mondays are the day when I would want to overeat or I would want to look at pornography or I would whatever to just feel some dopamine, just feel something because I was so depleted from. So people that would resonate with that, they would, because they're socially depleted, their body's depleted, they're going to. to want to gravitate to some sort of dope in me and some sort of like give me some kind of energy

yes because i'm empty i feel horrible yeah so i don't know if that speaks for all fives but that was what convinced me because i i always thought i was an extrovert i just i love being around people i love joking but i've always got to go recover yeah and i just thought well that was a normal you can function i i feel like that's like me like i people get shocked when they say i'm an introvert but then when i told them i said i could be in my basement by myself for two weeks with nothing about books. And I'd be thrilled. Oh, I wouldn't even, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, you're not an extrovert.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Extroverts can't get through the day without, I need to talk. No, no. But I can function as an extra. I can be in a room, whatever. But yeah, I don't, I would say this kind of stuff I could do. This would be energizing one-on-one with meaningful conversations, all day.

All day. People, two on two, one-on-three or whatever. But once it starts to get, like, I was at a big banquet last night with all these, like, thought leaders, organization leaders and everything. and, you know, I didn't know hardly any of them, whatever. An extrovert would want to kind of, like, work the room or whatever. And I'm just, like, in a fetal position in the corner, like, you know. It was, it was, I actually best some of cool people.

But it was like, yeah, I walked in the room and I was like, oh, there's a lot of people in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do think that that sort of personality difference has, like, implications for pastoring. Yeah. And speaking and teaching and whatever else that we're. whatever else. Most good stage communicators are introverts, I've found. Isn't that weird? Yeah. I would never...

I would never... I mean, I feel like that's the majority that I know. And they seem like... Like, everybody thinks like, they're the life of the party. I would love to hang out with them. Then sometimes you hang out with them and they're like, kind of little socially awkward. They're like, they don't chit-chat. They're just kind of like... Yeah. You know, like...

But see, but I think... I think we would chit-chat. Yeah, we would... Like, there's a... Well, that's you socially are. Well, I don't know. I've... I've said some things. I take risks that we were playing pickleball the other day and there was a so and if you're not watching on video

you're missing really just some glory but I was playing pickleball so I picked up pickleball I love it it's glorious nothing like 70 year old women you know beating up on me and my friends anyway I was we were done I was outside in the parking lot and there was this story

I don't know. We may, we may totally cut this story, but I was changing my shirt. And this, she's probably 70 or 80, just walking very slowly through the parking lot. And she's not even paying attention to me, but I'm there with my shirt off, switching into a dry shirt. And I just yell at her, ma'am, eyes up here. Eyes up here. And, and, and no, you said that to her. I said that to her. No context. Never met her, never seen her. She's just walking very. slowly through the park this is it we're in the south you were in the south this isn't new york we're just talking about socially awkward so i'm just giving a counter example and um and without missing a beat all right she so perfectly delivered this line i still think it's the best she kind of gave me the side eye you know the side eye and she just says well there's a lot going on over there and just kept walking and it it was it made my entire week i'm still telling that story weeks later because they're like I'm up for social risking in that way so I could be socially awkward I don't know but it was you'll roll the dice though we'll roll the dice you know what I'm saying

I mean what else what else we're going to do it gets boring otherwise anyway are you how are you on airplanes that's are you a headphones yeah yeah me too even if I'm not listening anything I put in headphones and just just in case somebody tries to talk to me yeah do you remember but part of it is I a lot of times I will need that airplane ride to like prepare a message finish Start a mess You know like Yeah yeah Usually like I plan my

My my that is a work flight for me Yes And work flight that I'm gonna land And get in front of much of people So if I get that extrovert Sitting next to me It's just Especially I'm deaf in my left ear

I didn't know that Yeah yeah so if I sit in If I sit down and there's an expert to my left Oh dude It is a nightmare because I mean I have to like turn my head like this I can't you know So I'm like sorry You can't see you know

Yeah I'm like cranked around like this, and it's just, yeah. And I don't have the, I don't have the, some people, like, in Instagram 8 would probably say, like, hey, I'm sorry, I can't talk to you right now. I got to, but I'll be like, I'll listen until they're done. And I'll kind of give signals.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll put my earbuds in. I'm like, look down. But a true expert doesn't see, they don't, they don't keep talking. They'll like. I think so. Yeah, yeah. And I just kind of nod, nod. The way I can end the conversation, though, is I'll just tell them what I do for work.

And then it's it. That's it. That's it. Oh, so what do you do? oh, I'm a pastor, or I lead the Center for Human Sexuality and Christian Thought or whatever it is. That's perfect. I work with the evangelical spaces in the LGBT community. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I absolutely love Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Ephesians presents a wide-ranging panorama of the Christian gospel and its implications for the church and the world. Paul's view of salvation, it's not about being rescued from the world, but about the coming together of heaven and earth in Jesus, the Messiah. And against this backdrop, many of the most challenging parts of Ephesians comes in focus like, you know, spiritual warfare, women in a church, powers and principalities, ethnic reconciliation, and what Paul even means by salvation.

Now, if you want to understand Ephesians better, then I highly, highly recommend that you check out N.T. Wright's latest book, The Vision of Ephesians. In this book, N.T. Wright offers an accessible introduction that opens up the text in a way that helps what may seem dense and elusive become clear and fresh and challenging and encouraging. Wright works through the letter to the Ephesians in nine sections. He explores both the apocalyptic insights and bracing challenges for the church, whether the church in the first century or the church in the 21st century. It doesn't matter if you're a scholar, seminary student, pastor, or layperson,

you will absolutely love Antirite's book, The Vision of Ephesians. Check it out wherever books are sold. All right. You mentioned Charlie Kirk. I did. You did a podcast. We did. On Charlie Kirk. I don't know when this, so we're recording this on Halloween. Happy Halloween. Yeah, thank you. Nice costume. True. True. True. Yes. Pumpkin spice vinyl. I did not listen to your episode. Which is hurtful. Not a part of the way. I apologize for that. I actually don't listen to hardly any podcasts. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah. I listen like news and politics. Just keep up on stuff. I don't, uh, I'm curious about your take. And I, I just want to acknowledge that this is a very, very sensitive, um, uh, well, I've got, I've got my own thoughts. They're rolling thoughts, thinking out loud and stuff, but, um, let's think out loud together.

You, you mentioned, you raised a question, is Charlie Kirk a Christian martyr or a martyr for something else? I think it was a phrase you use. Can you unpack? Sure. It was two options. sure give us your thoughts yeah well and how you've had how you've even pastured your church through absolutely this cultural moment absolutely i mean and and so so let's talk charlie for a second and then let's go bigger because because i want to differentiate between charlie kirk the husband and the father and the jesus follower and the person that was assassinated and murdered brutally that that and the wife and the kids and all of that i mean obviously I hate that it even has to be said, but we never celebrate that.

That's horrific, horrific that we've come to the place where that is happening and that is joked about and all the things. I want to differentiate between Charlie Kirk, the person who I didn't follow, I don't know. I've seen clips of good things he said and bad things he said. I've got people close to me that are fans and people close to me that are not. And I've realized there's an algorithmic difference there. two between what the algorithm is presented to them. But I want to differentiate between him as the person who is worth grieving and mourning and the symbol that he's become for something

bigger. And I think the big wrestling we have in the church over the last several years has been does the church exist to change and transform culture or does the church exist to be transformed and be faithful to Christ and then thereby through indirect witness be salt and light to culture. I think that is the fundamental question that a lot of us have been wrestling with. You wrestle with it in exiles and I think there are loads of us asking, okay, what's the church for? There's a kind of a dominionist viewpoint that says, you know, the church is to exert influence in all spheres of human life.

by placing Christians in positions of influence and power so that Christians are protected. Christians are uniquely privileged. Christians are magnified in culture. And there are those of us who really question whether or not that's the role of the church theologically, biblically. And so I think when I look at Charlie Kirk the symbol, I think Charlie Kirk is a unique manifestation of the impulse to say, no, the best way to be Christian in the world is by transforming the world through political process. The argument, if you go on to Turning Point USA, I spent several hours, because I didn't know, I spent several hours listening to him looking at the Turning Points classes,

their statements about themselves. And the fundamental mission is a political one. It's to advocate for people who will agitate politically for limited government and free speech and fiscal responsibility. This is their own language. There is a TPSA faith component of that that really emphasizes something called biblical citizenship. And biblical citizenship teaches that the Christian was, that the country was based on Christian principles or founded by Christians, depending.

And it's because of those Christian principles that America has been the most successful country in the history of the world. That's what has led to our success. We're no longer, as we drift away from biblical principles, we're no longer successful. And so to save our country, we have to return to biblical principles. And so you have, like his memorial was worship interspersed with heal our land. Second Chronicles of my people humble themselves. You know, you will heal our land. Save our land, Lord Jesus, save our land. They applied that text to the America? Yeah.

Oh, I watched the two-hour worship part of this. And you've got some of our most recognizable worship leaders singing some of the most powerful songs. But the juxtaposition between singing worthy is the lamb and then listening to Benny Johnson and I would encourage you to listen to these speeches. And, oh, Stephen Miller. the fact that you could sit in that audience sing that lyric and then applause those lines just suggest that maybe there's a bit of confusion that has sort of captured the dominionist kind of wing of evangelical Christianity and so when I look at Charlie as the symbol not the person as the symbol of a movement I have loads of questions about whether or not and what

we argued on the podcast is that Charlie Kirk was waging a culture war that Jesus wouldn't wage, using weapons that Jesus would never use, and forming people into certain shapes that Jesus that don't reflect accurately the love your enemy neighbor, neighbor ethic of Jesus. Now, there was Christian language all over Charlie. He clearly believed and confessed Jesus as Lord. But the question that I have, and I think goes back to the big question about the church, is what does fidelity to Jesus look like? Does it look like the exertion and execution of political power? Or does it look like Christ deformity or cruciformity, which is the posture that simply says that the way the kingdom comes is through redemptive suffering and the blessing of those who oppose us? And so I would be among those who would would entertain the prospect that the project of T.P.USA is fundamentally not Christian, but is because, because and the question, the key question I think we'd all ask is, well, what biblical principles are we going to pull?

So if the, if the country was found out on biblical principles, well, gleaning is a biblical principle. Jubilee is a biblical principle. Love of enemy, love of an immigrant is a biblical principle. So I think that, I just have questions about that in the imaginations of some, there is no difference between conservative Christianity and conservative republicanism. And I would want to say, hey, I'm not a fan of liberal liberalism either, but both political parties have assumptions about what government is. four that are called into question each by the reality of the kingdom. The kingdom does not find individual liberty as the greatest of all human goods, right? And that government's role is to allow individual liberty to flourish. I mean, obviously there would be some who would say, yep, that's absolutely what the Bible says about that. I think what the Bible says is that God

has formed a politic, right? And this is, again, I've read exiles. And it was great. It was great that the church itself is a politic that practices a politic and that Jesus' is Lord is a thoroughly political claim. So to be a part of the church is the most political thing that we do as opposed to voting on which version of classic liberalism is going to win the day. And being the church, being the politic that God has created through the risen Christ will probably disrupt. political principalities and powers in this kingdom, not one side.

That's right. Not one head of the dragon, but all seven heads of the dragon. Correct, that's it. So if your embodiment of Jesus' politic is winning favors with the empire, one side of the empire, there might be something off there.

Totally, totally. And the faithfulness, I mean, so my fundamental claim is that the New Testament teaches, it's more important to be faithful than effective. Yes. That the Great Commission is not an excuse to colonize. And that the Great Commission, Alan Cretter, who wrote firmament, what is it? The Firmament of the Early Church, I think. Oh, bro, it's one of the best church history books. Oh, I've ever read. Patient Firmament of the Early Church, not a compelling title. But his argument is the Great Commission wasn't understood as a commission because it was fulfilled by the apostles. That, the Great Commission text was a text that taught Trinity and that in the first four centuries of the church, there isn't one treatise or tract about evangelism, but rather about fidelity and catechism and patience. And so he makes this case that the church's exercising of patience

as God exercises patience is its best witness to culture, meaning that it doesn't have to use weapons of coercion. It doesn't have to use manipulation or falsehood. It doesn't have to use pressure, fear, or shame. It can just simply sit and announce the same way that Jesus sat and announced without having to enact any other program or agenda. And so all that is to say, his argument there is that the whole project of dominionism is a human project, but we're never told to, we're never told to exercise dominion over each other. We're told to exercise dominion over the created order. And so the rush for political power on its face already then is kind of out of bounds. Now, the counter is, well, wouldn't you want Christian people in the

government? And the answer is that for Jesus loving Christ-shaped cross-prioritized people to be in government? Absolutely. But there's a difference between having Christians in government versus a Christian government, as you distinguished in exiles, which I'm, you know, how many copies have I just sold just by this reoccurring? Your checks in the mail, your checks in the mail. Yeah. Questions about sex, sexuality, marriage, and gender have become some of the most pressing questions facing Christians today.

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I like your, you know, separating this, this, this Christian husband, father, and just the horrors of an assassination and all those, like, yeah, like everybody, just horrified. Yeah. Watching those videos, you know, like, oh, my word, my kids are distraught. But it was, you know, I, you know, I'm minuscule platform compared to him. But there's people who would accuse me of on both sides of the aisle of being a heretic on this side. Sure. Toxic or dangerous, harmful, all these things. And so some of the same language that was used of him, I've received that, you know, and I'm on stage.

And there's people, maybe there's someone out there that would want to put a bullet through my neck. You know, like, and so a little sober in there. And, and then just, um, just that what seems like an increase, once somebody disagree with is not just a disagreeable, but evil. That's it. When they're not, um, that, you know, they're not just wrong, but they're a Nazi and Hitler. It's like, who wouldn't want to go back and kill Hitler, you know? Like you, I wasn't, you know, I like most people saw clips that are. said to me, you know, you get the clip of him, you know, interacting to somebody who's screaming

at him, yelling at him, and he's being gracious and kind. And that's the one side of the algorithm. The other side of the algorithm is him, like, you know, there's one clip I got of him, like, mocking and making fun of, like, dead Palestinians and stuff and trans people and just being belligerent and stuff. So it's like, I do think the algorithms, and if you just rely on clips, you're getting a very warped perspective. And so I've tried to withhold strong opinions

about public figures unless I listen to the whole thing. I think that's smart. So somebody says, did you hear like Tucker Carlson said this or Trump said this? I'm like, okay, I'm not going to have an opinion until I listen to the entire speech. I love that. This was hit home when do you remember that clip was maybe six months ago when

J.D. Vance and Trump were sitting down with Zelensky they were going after him whatever and it was like oh my word they just brought this guy in and started railing him like this whole geez that's weird yeah yeah but they don't listen did you know that was the end of like a 45 minute clip see no I didn't

I listened the whole 42 minutes cordial gracious interacting would provoke to the JD Vance didn't say a word he's sitting over there the only time he spoke was when it was like you know you didn't you're not even thankful he's like no I am thankful yeah but you just say it I'm saying it no you didn't say it like right now

you know like whatever it was I don't know it was that the clip that went viral was yeah was really we like it just all of a sudden escalated and erupted but the first 40 minutes was not that at all yeah at all yeah which I whatever that clip is still you can still think but like in the context it's just it's like oh when you step

back and listen to the whole thing or clips of anybody like Tucker calls in or whoever on the left and everything whenever I go listen to the entire thing that sound bite is just they still said what they said but it's often like oh the context as always like okay this is somebody who really doesn't like this person is clipping it's the worst part of what they said in order to provoke a reaction so anyway so i think charlie kirk has um has absolutely been a victim of that and i've only paid not even paid attention i've kind of seen the clips and like well i'm going to kind of withhold an opinion but like you i've

kind of gone back now and listen to more long form and stuff and and um just trying to understand yeah just trying to understand and so i um you know on paper i would probably affirm many theological doctrines that he affirms the core doctrines um i appreciate that he was engaging in um and this is even where it gets questionable was he engaging in good faith dialogues or was he trying to draw people in to make them look as silly and stupid as he can, you know. I have no idea. So, I mean, I... Yeah, I don't know.

I kind of do. What's your thought? Well, I... Because I have loads of respect for anybody that sits and will listen. Yes. I mean, I think his approach is going in person, inviting people in, ask me anything, whatever. I will debate dialogue over any question, you know. That takes them serious.

I wouldn't, I'd be, I wouldn't, I'd be scared to death to do that, you know. I would not be, you know, I would, I would, come on. I would probably lose my faith. I would have some atheist like, convince me Jesus is love. All right. Where's the church of Satan? I'm joining, you know, like I, I, I don't do good at those environments. And he was a, a masterful skilled debater.

At the same time, I, his, his, his, my opinion. people totally disagree. I really be personally, I don't like that method of debating where you are doing anything to just win the argument. You're not genuinely being curious. They're listening to whatever, but really you're trying to show this person is wrong.

And if you really despise their ideas, then you're really trying to make them look stupid. I don't, I think the church has a reputation back into street preacher days, you know, all this stuff. And, you know, the kind of public-facing church in America, I don't think has developed a good reputation of being humble, curious, loving, welcoming, all these things. And I would say his approach to this free speech, he's, you know, whatever dialogue, that approach, I could see where it really angered people.

Yeah. It was effective at winning our. Arguments making bad ideas look stupid. I just don't know how over like that that wouldn't be the approach I would take. So what would you make of the reports of people going back to church interested in their Bibles? Like like turning point. Yeah. And now it's 8,000 churches have signed up. Um, uh, you know, so we're experiencing a revival. Well, I don't, I think attending a church service. isn't necessarily a sign of revival. I don't... No, I don't... No, dude, I'm so with you. I was just curious what you would do.

When I look at revival, or if I look at, like, movements and increase in the kingdom of God and everything, I do want to look at the seed that has fallen upon good soil and see if it perseveres. I want to see, are they demonstrating the characteristics of Jesus that disrupted culture in the first century, loving your enemy, reach heart for the poor,

turning the empire upside down, doing things that the empire doesn't celebrate but might kill you for, you know? So if it's just a bunch of people who are blending conservative values with Christian values, calling conservative values biblical, which may or may not be blending the values

of the kingdom of God and the values of the kingdom of Rome, or Babylon, like I don't think we need more, more and louder, like, confusion between right-wing politics and the radical kingdom of God. Like, so, and I'm not, it sounds like I'm, well, I am kind of, I mean, I, yeah, I'm with you. If those numbers are growing, we might have a bigger problem. Really?

And I don't, well, they're still Christians and, okay, if they are, then great, I celebrate that. But I don't, let's see in five, ten years, too. Like, I want to see, are people being disciples, not just, because this happened after 9-11, the churches grew and then whatever, and then five years later, we're dealing with all the new atheists and everything and people, you know, so there is a long obedience in the same direction that I, to quote, you know, to quote, what's his face? Eugene Peter, totally.

I do want to see that. I only think you can see revival in the rear of your mirror. I just think it's fruit. It's exactly what you're saying. Yes, yes. It's not confession or profession. It's fruit. Right.

And not church. Like, I don't, I don't think you need to be a Christian to, like, grow a megachurch. You really don't. I mean, oh, come on. Like, we, dude, being you, we can, we can, if we wanted to. Yeah. We could, we know how to pull the strings. Sure.

You get, I mean, even Francis Chan said this. Like, I can grow a megachurch. I only need the Holy Spirit. All I need is a great kids program and a killer worship. Yeah. He doesn't need to be a Christian. And just like he needs to be able to, if you tug on the emotions and create an environment, you get a good communicator, whether or not he is a humble, curious person, whether or not

he actually serves his wife, whether or not he treats the poor well is irrelevant, really, for growing a church. I mean, there's so just, yeah, if I told me, I don't know, I don't want to be, I, here's what I'm not saying, I am not saying every pastor or a big church is doing that. I'm just saying, you, you, there. They're somewhere explainable by social, just social dynamics that don't require cruciformity of the leadership at all. Right.

Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. No, I would totally affirm that. I think megachurch is a mindset. It's not a size. Because I know big churches that are unbelievably faithful and small churches that are driven by the American values of success.

Yeah. I was just had a megachurch here. I mean, 10,000 people. And I know all the leaders, most of the leaders, and they are incredibly humble and gracious. and reach the community and give away tons and tons of money and are concerned about the poor. They're amazing. So, yeah, I am, yeah, you can grow a big church without living in instilling cruciform

values. Sure. You can also grow a big church by preaching the hard-hitting gospel, inviting people in the radical discipleship and doing kingdom things, and that can. So I'm not making a categorical statement. Going back to, I want to finish my thought on Charlie Kirk. So there are things, and even the fact that he was so public and explicit with his faith in hostile environments, I applaud that. And I wonder, would I have that kind of courage?

So there's many things I can admire about him. I don't resonate with and I actually maybe have some problems with his method of debating. that's okay my biggest concern is I and this piggybacks on what you were saying

is I think one of the biggest hindrances of Christian discipleship in America is the idolatry of politics the blending

largely of right wing conservative politics I would say I'm kind of a horseshoe guy I see the same thing on left it's just way I mean it's percentage wise it's just not our tribe it's not our tribe yeah yeah and there are people

that go out of direction i hear them clinging to left wing politics as kind of like the messiah that's going to take out trump and everything about them is just so anti-trump it's like you're just doing the same thing in reverse and so but but the percentages are just a lot you know that's not you know all the people that we grew up admiring right who told us that character matters when it comes to the president to see that A lot of them sort of give up on that when power... He's my president and my pastor. Yeah, exactly.

Except when Bill Clinton's in the office, they... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'll have to say, I, from what I can tell, and if somebody's like, dude, I know Charlie, I listen to hours of him, this isn't true, then I will take it back. But from my limited perception,

I think he blended right-wing politics with his Christian faith in ways that I find to be not only just dangerous and toxic, but one of the most, one of the most, the greatest hindrances to radical Christian discipleship in the American evangelical church. That's, that's my opinion. So the differences that I have with him are maybe numerically, not too many. And there's so many things that I, I love. But the main thing that he kind of stood for is one of the main things that I think it just absolutely needs to be weeded out from the church. Totally.

I mean to say this loud and clear. Yeah. The assassination was absolutely immoral. Yeah. Evil, wicked. You know, obviously. Yeah, I hate that we even have to say it. Exactly, exactly.

So sometimes you need to say that. Other people are like, so you think you should have, you know, 100% no. Never. But I am concerned about how his movement has now become even almost that. energized, yeah, energized and galvanized because he's been called a Christian martyr. I think he was more of a Christian who was martyred for his political activism more than a being martyred for his Christian faith who also happened to lean right. Yeah, that's good. People, people, I've said that as well, and people have countered by saying,

well, it was his faith that led him into his activist positions. And so in a way, he, he was martyed for his faith. I think the fundamental, you know, question that we have to ask. And I think there's such a mosaic covenant feel to all of this. In other words, it feels like we're going backwards. America has replaced Israel as God's chosen nation. And there are a load of Christians who make the same argument that some parties of the Pharisees did. There are people in our country, who are holding us back from God's full blessing. And they either need to be converted or removed. And so the goal, I mean, explicitly, this is explicit.

I'm not making this up. This is turning points language. The explicit goal is to heal our land and to restore America. And for those of us who don't have Old Testament or Second Temple Judaism ears on, that's the argument of the Pharisee, right? That we need to restore the land by attaining holiness. and purging those who are unclean out of the land. And that makes Native Americans the Canaanites,

if this is a promised land, and you can start getting down some weird anti-Christian. How else do you build a Christian country on the backs of slaves? How else do you build a Christian country on white supremacy? I mean, absolutely. I mean, this goes back to like

just making the gospel internal and private as opposed to something that has massive social ramifications. But that's a different topic For me, the concern you're voicing that I share completely is that the kingdom of God cannot have as its main concern in nation state. By definition, we've gone from circumcision, which was an ethnic distinctive, to baptism, which is universal. And so the proclamation that America has some sort of place in the last days or that God has special concern for America as opposed to Guam or Vietnam or whatever. I mean, that is heretical. Oh, I think, I mean, I truly believe American, believing in some kind of American exceptionalism is absolutely hideous.

But that was all second temple, right? That we're safe. I mean, I mean, you start with first temple. Here's Jeremiah. Right. This is the temple. This is the temple. We're safe.

We're safe. We're safe. And I feel like there's a similar, this is America. This is America. We're safe. We're safe. We're safe. And if we only go back and repentance to God and inhabit these Christian principles,

then our country will be great again. That's the goal. And so the- Regardless of how this country's greatness harms, hinders. Totally. Just, you know, like, steals from or draws income from other nations.

We want to erase all that. Yeah. Like the systematic, like, and I don't know how systematic it is or ad hoc it is, the DoD's website started removing dedicated web pages to the contributions of black air men and women and notable people of color in military service. I don't know if the outcry pushed that back, but there was legitimately that attempt.

And all that is to say, we have to ask what sort of Christianity would tolerate that sort of action. the action that doesn't want to pay attention to the slave trade that doesn't want to pay attention to systematic injustice the kind of that kind of Christianity that would have allowed the exploitation of native and indigenous peoples. And again, I always heard when I was growing up that this was liberal talk. This was social gospel talk, right? I mean, we heard this. Our job is to save souls and get them to heaven to do anything else as a distraction from the gospel. I was told this.

So even hearing myself talk, I can hear. voices saying, oh, it's such a liberal. And the more I read the new test, well, the more I read the whole text, nope, that is what the gospel amounts to is this reordering of social priorities. And do you still live in the, because I mean, I've, I've been so far removed from that way of thinking that it's like. It's been ingrained. Like it's internal. It's internal at this point. I think I've been able to, somehow I've been able to like detox it out to where now when I hear it, I'm like, boyzy. Wait, do people still like? It's Idaho, man. It's sea. We're just, you're just, we're just up there. We're just up there. hunting deer and fishing and yeah building militias i mean it's fun you guys are fun no i it's i still just have this have this old like i mean i went to to seminary i had a very conservative seminary and talbot and i went for philosophy you think that's very conservative i went to masters well okay you're to the left you're right you're right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah charlie we would always like if somebody at the talbot like i don't know they might be losing her faith like Yeah, I've heard Biola criticized a lot.

You're right, you're right, you're right. But the theology program, at least two decades ago, was all Millard Erickson. There was no, you didn't read anybody beyond Miller-Erickson. He was kind of the two left-leaning. We were at Grudham. And even he was, like, kind of liberal because he's charismatic. I know. He's in dispensation.

I know. Somehow. Anyway, somehow we made it. All right. So all that is to say, I think it's right for those of us who are sitting and dealing and dealing with real people to at least ask the question, hey, are there unhealthy parts

to our fixation with influencers that seem to meld? And it doesn't matter. I mean, our take, my take, would be the same if it was a democratic influencer. So we talk a lot about the Trump administration, not because we are partisan,

but because the Trump, Trump administration claims divine sanction for its actions. So I follow the ICE government account. I follow the customs and border enforcement account. The number of biblical messages that have been plastered over. Yeah, visuals about this. It's amazing. I mean, go look.

You don't have to take my word for it. Or Pete Hegssef, just the Department of War tweeted out the Lord's Prayer. Department of War is what it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But it's tweeted out the Lord's Prayer, read over images of American political power. Did you see that? I thought that was the onion or like some kind of Babylon Bee or spoof thing.

No, that was legit. It was so on the nose. Yes. Yes. I was like laughing halfway through like, who created this? One of my friends created that. I'm like, wait. Wait, this isn't real, is it?

Yeah. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Or, I mean, I was even looking out. And again, if the, if. Joe Biden had a Bible that he was hawking, I'd have the same reaction. So this is not a partisan thing. But I'm looking at the, like, the Bible that includes now the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, the, I mean, you could not, we kind of chuckle at how egregious it is.

Yeah. But you could not have anything more blasphemous. Yeah. Than that. 100%. Then the country's founding documents set aside inspired scripture to say they relate to each other. One comes from the other. And I just am like.

I'm with you. I think that we have to get more vocal about the damage that does to cruciformity. Because if you're convinced that America needs saving, and that's the goal. That's the goal of political action. That's the goal of Christian life. Then you're going to orient your life in ways that just negate the work and power of the cross, right? And so for me, this is the number one. And it's been, I mean, this isn't new.

This has been 10 years at least. And before that, even with George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, there were there were Christian sanctions to the, you know, Iraqi war. And so it's been an issue. I just think that it's, as you were pointing out, I just think it's so much more public. And accepted to sort of claim some of the claims and just have people go, well, yeah, that's what it means to follow Jesus. So I do think like exiles, other. things like there's more to do here because the scripture gives us such minority reports and language and imagery to use and to think that the goal is somehow to make America

what it was. Oh, man, I just, that's, I see no biblical anything. How do you pastor your people through these conversations? Is it been tough or is your church, they pretty much, like when they, if they listen to this podcast, people at your church. With the majority totally resonate, or is it divided? It's divided. It's divided. Is it?

Yes, absolutely. So I had a guy who, I'm just getting to know, who has served special forces. And he, I don't talk about the podcast at our church. Because I think podcasting and speaking in a church are two totally different mediums that require two totally different sensitivities. And I only trust my podcasting because I'm in a church, right? That there's an embodied thing. That's why you do your conferences and that's why you do these things in person, right? It's just being on a disembodied head on Riverside FM is awful.

But some of our church found the Charlie Kirk stuff that we were doing and had deep concerns about it. But what's phenomenal is that instead of leaving or whatever, they just were like, one specific guy in particular, he said, hey, I'd love, I'd love to go out to lunch and just tell you how I see this. Okay. And I was like, is that, that's discipleship. That's beautiful. So, um, we have built in our community, we do Q&A after.

I love that so much. It's so great, dude. Oh. I always said if I was ever a pastor, which I don't have any plans on doing, I think it would be very dialogical. It's amazing. It changes me. I'm the one that benefits most.

from the questions because I, I mean, I learned so much about my teaching and I learned my blind spots and I learn because we have two services, the questions at the nine, I, I give, I think about them between services and then bring them into the 11 o'clock. How do you run QNX? You have a, I mean, how many, a few, several hundred people, thousand? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. But it's not 40.

No, no, no. How do you, is it open mic? Is it text in or? Both. Okay. So we try to say, hey, comments. are for texts and we have somebody

that responds to those and then we do a podcast where we respond to some of the juicier ones and then yeah we have some really courageous folks that just have asked

some of the craziest questions in the history of the planet and you know part of the part of being humble and curious at least for me as a discipline because as a five I love to be seen

as competent and right and so the many occasions where I just say I have no idea I have no idea. And it's fascinating of all the answers. That's the one I think that's appreciated most. It's like, I don't have a clue.

So they'll pull up a Bible verse that was adjacent to something. And I'm like, man, I got nothing. And there are other times where they'll ask a question and then that forms a whole series of conversations after that. And again, it's not because I'm smart. It's because the questions. You're genuine. Well, if you don't know, you don't know. If you do know, you give an answer.

If you're somewhat, no, you'll somewhat, you know. Somewhat say. But it's the asking, the given the permission of, I mean, we had a young lady probably 18 years old. We were teaching on revelation the way you and I would understand revelation. And she just said, I really think you're wrong about all this. And I thought, I would. And he says you're 18. What do you know?

Yeah. No, no, no, no. But an 18-year-old woman, I mean, is that not the greatest thing in the history of the world? I mean, like, to, I would never as an 18-year-old would have ever spoken in church. I would never have paid attention, let alone well enough to disagree. But then a young woman to talk to some middle-aged white dude on the stage? Like, how amazing is that? Right.

How do you respond to that? I laughed and I said, I think a lot of people would think so. I think a lot of people would disagree. Would she kind of being cheeky a little bit? No. Absolutely. She was like, no, because I was arguing that the numbers are symbolic. Because that's part of the apocryphal nature of writing is that the numbers are all symbolic.

And she was just like, no, I just think you're really wrong about that. I think the numbers are very literal. So there's seven spirits are God? My goal at that moment was to laugh and celebrate because just the sheer. fact that she felt comfortable enough in a church environment with a white male pastor to publicly disagree. How great is that? Wow. How great is that? So I just received it and said, I think loads of people would think I'm wrong. The goal isn't to be right here. The goal is to be faithful, right? The goal of good Bible reading is to bear the, for a community to bear the fruit

of the spirit. That's the goal of good interpretation. And so, you know, you have loads of church, churches that are orthodox, but there isn't, there isn't a love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, bone in their body. You know what I mean? So, anyway. Well done at that moment. Already I'm thinking about how many responses I'm going to give them that would have like regretted five seconds later. No, I was, no. But you're that way. It's totally fine. Our goal isn't being right. Our goal is to provoke curiosity and humility, hopefully embodying it ourselves. And in creating a church environment where people asking questions and poking around is not a bad thing at all. In fact, Jesus seemed to really encourage, you know, this sort

of thing. Yeah, absolutely. So your congregation has a wide mix of opinions on these political stuff. Yes. You're saying the commonality is they feel comfortable agreeing to disagree, engaging with curiosity. Yes. So it's not, it hasn't, because my thought was if you talk, like you are now or they listen to your podcast and they're very much not in agreement. A lot of people just say, well, this isn't a place for me. I'm out of here. Yes. I'm sure that's probably happened.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And there have been other people who've left because they've said we haven't been critical enough of the current administration. So I don't, so if I'm explicating a text. So here's the way we navigate it in the room. We lament. Lament is the way to do this without being partisan.

And so we, the Sunday after it happened, we just, I got up and I said, hey, I know we all voted differently and we have different feelings about this. I think minimally, we can lament what has happened. And so I just let us in a time of lament. Regardless of, no one needs to know my thoughts about this. My thoughts aren't relevant. The lament of a world where this is happening, man, that's relevant. You're talking about the Charlie Kirk.

Yeah, sorry. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a good response. Okay. Yeah. So I know some churches celebrated him as a Christian martyr. Others didn't say anything. And I was asking a question.

I'm not sure what I would have. Yeah. I wouldn't have celebrated him as a Christian martyr. But I always wondered if I wasn't at a moment, would I have said something? How would I have said it? But I love, I mean, I think that's a very good Christian response. Nobody can disagree with that. They want you to say more.

It's like, we're not going to say more. For some of you, he was a martyr. for others of you, he was an enemy. That's true. That's sitting in the room. But we can all agree as Jesus followers. This has no place in our world. And so we want to pray against it and lamented.

And then it was like immigration. We had immigration raids. And I said, let's talk about immigration for a second. I know we would disagree on policy. I know we would disagree on policy. But we can all agree that image bears deserve to be treated as image bears. So let's just lament a world that. doesn't always treat image bears as such.

And there were a couple of people that were a little like, I'm not sure we should be talking about this. But at the end of the day, lament, I think, is the way through some of these polarities. Yeah, absolutely. We need more than the church, man. Well, dude, I've got so many more questions. Actually, I just had two questions.

And we covered them like 45 minutes ago. It was wonderful, dude, having you on? We've got to do this more often, man. Preston, I'm in. And when your book on Women and Ministry comes out, we'd love to have you on Voxone. You know what? I'm going to be coming out to Nashville for some live interviews.

Can we do? Yes. Yes. I might even, it's going to be like probably mid-January sometime. We can talk offline. Yeah, because there's several podcasts here that I'm going to come and be on. In fact, I think I wrote you down. It's like I want to get on my guest podcast.

It would be fun. Loads of fun. Yeah, thanks for having me. This is so great. Thanks for being on, man. You can see your face. Bless and see you, man. Real quick.

So your podcast is Voxology podcast. Voxology. You record once a week, twice a week. Once a week. Yeah. We do Bible stuff. So we're in the middle of Lord's prayer, along with some culture stuff like you do.

And what a privilege. And then our church is called Journey Church in Brentwood. Journey Church in Brentwood. Don't stop believing is our model. It's just the dumbest thing. For those who, for those who, may not know who you are. I mean, we started podcasting right around the same time

10 years ago. And I think of any two podcasts, we probably had if not a lot of shared audience, but like my, like your voxology, I think it was called the Vox podcast. Yeah, back in the day. When you described your audience, I'm like

that's exactly the kinds of people that I think are listening to. Do you know why? So there are several reasons why we stopped doing so many interviews. one was that you and the Holy Post would get all the big guests before we would get them

and it was just like no no we just can't the other part was people on book tours are sick at talking about their books and it's like that doesn't make for great podcast but bro in T. Right

I mean I just sat I wept with envy oh yeah he's my I'm still in I'm still shocked that he wants to come on the podcast. I just, I, does the PhD help?

It's got to help. Because, I mean, you're like, you're a doctor. Well, he, he, um,

and he, he has read my work on, on Paul and, and also on, on sexuality. Because, you know, he's a scholar,

but he's in churches all the time. And he has really promoted my work on sexuality. Somebody told me that. Like, like, hey, I'm at an NTRIE event in London and he's pumping up your book. And so,

so I think he's, He even told me, he's like, I'm so thankful that you're doing this work so I kind of don't have to because given the spaces he runs in, it would hinder all the other work he's doing if he was like really like front facing on questions of sexuality. But he's 100% like everything I'm saying, you know. So I think it's because of that that he, and he, you know, he's this ivory tower scholar you think, but he really is just a down to earth like family. He's so down to earth. Like he's. Yeah. That was Dallas Willard for me.

When Dallas was alive, I got to hold Dallas Willard's hand in a prayer circle. And I was like, this is what, yeah, in Jesus, this is what Jesus' hand would have felt like. Wow. I've heard that about him. Yeah, it was like the gentlest, kindest soul. Yes. And so I've heard similar things about Inti, which, like, so when I think about who I'm reading, their private life matters to me. So guys like Scott McKnight or others who just have like that gentle Jesus-y thing to them.

I just trust their scholarship more. Yeah, yeah, I do too. I do too. Yeah, there's a lot of Sandy Richter is like that for me. Yes. Oh, and, yep, Sandy. Carmen. Times.

Amazing. DJ. I mean, all these. Yeah, all the same. I feel like the next generation of. evangelical scholars. I mean, they're not, you know, our age, but I mean, they're, um, yeah, they're, they're going to be the, yes, the kind of the people like the, we think of like a Doug Moore or Kevin Van Hooser or N.T. You know, totally. There's this emerging like,

in the mid-40s that are just doing some great work. And, and there's, yeah, I know a lot that just have outstanding characters. And yeah. Which, God, good Lord, is that not the most important thing these days? So, anyway, thank you, bro. My pleasure. Thank you.