Theology in the Raw - Pursuing Jesus through Suffering, Trials, and Foolish Mistakes: Matt Chandler

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Join my Patreon Community for bonus episodes, Extra Innings, Q and A, and more! Matt Chandler serves as the Lead Pastor at The Village Church in Flower Mound, TX and is the author of several books including his most recent book: Becoming Like Jesus: The Everyday Journey to Living a Life of Holiness See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Rainbows and unicorns aren't most people's life. Everybody listening to this, their whole life can change with a phone call today. And so I want to set you up to be able to love Jesus and trust Jesus well through that. And I don't serve anyone well if I'm wearing a cape. I'm going to be very honest about my own doubts, my own struggles. And I've found that that has created a church over a quarter century that is honest, always grimy, and has some of the more beautiful stories of redemption ever. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology.

Rob, my guest today is Matt Chandler, who serves as a lead pastor at the Village Church in Flower Mountain, Texas, and he's the author of several books, including his most recent book, Becoming Like Jesus, the Everyday Journey to Living a Life of Holiness. We dig into the book a bit in this conversation, and Matt also shares very honestly about some of the highs and some of the lows in his life and ministry over the last few decades. Really enjoyed this conversation with Matt,

love his honesty and his humility, and I think you'll really appreciate this very honest conversation. If you have been blessed, challenged, or angered by the Theology Raw podcast, and you want to support it, you can go to patreon.com.com forward slash Theology and Ra and become a part of the TheologyRot community for as little as five bucks a month. I really appreciate all of you who are supporting the show, truly means the world to me and my team.

And we cannot do what we do without the support of our theology rock community. So thank you for that. Okay, please welcome back to the show. Be one or only, Matt Chandler. Oh, man, Matt Chandler. It's good to see you, man. How are you doing? Man, it's been too long, brother.

I mean, it was like I had a window with you for a while. And then over the last couple of years, it seems like we haven't had as much time together. And now that you're not, it doesn't seem like you're on social media. at all. I'm not on a lot. I don't like go search it for stuff, but in the times that I do go online, I don't see Matt Chandler. Are you done with social media? No, no, no. I'm on. I'm just, yeah, for the first time, I'm having someone else run that for me. So I'm not, I'm not as active on. It's not good for me. Not good for my brain. Not good for my soul. Is it good for anybody? Well, I don't know. Some people would argue it very much is a tool that I want to leverage to

herald what's good, true, and beautiful. But man, there's a lot wrapped up in it. There are some friends I've met over the years where they remind me like, you know, when we first met, I'm like, I can't remember. Like, it was a Twitter interaction in 2015 or something, and now they're good friends of mine. So, but that, that, I think that was an older era when there was some better faith interaction.

And now it's just, it's kind of. Yeah, I was just actually, Preston, having a conversation. Do you remember when James McDonald was doing the elephant room? Yeah. Yeah. I just thought, what an amazing idea. to have brotherly debates over these topics. And I was having that conversation with a couple of guys,

and they said the same thing. Could you even do that anymore? Would people even be willing to have those conversations? Or would they just be trying to please their base? And, you know, it is a different day. I kind of lament that that you can't just in good faith have the conversations anymore. Because you're talking about ideas or theologies. You're not attacking the person or you shouldn't.

But yeah, I was just having that same conversation that I'm curious. It feels like this air is so hostile. It's hard to do that anymore. We do it at exiles, but that's a unique crowd. We're doing, well, by the time this comes out, it'll have been over because it starts in a couple days. But we're having a dialogical debate between Pete Ends and Sandy Richter on the historical reliability of the Bible. Oh, man.

And then a dialogical debate between Shane Claiborne and Paul Copan on Christians in war. Okay. But we stress dialogue, not more than debate. So they each give their presentation. And then we sit on the couch for an hour and just in good faith, pass it out, you know. Well, man, I love that you're doing that. It's going to be helpful. But yeah, yeah, the elephant rub.

I think he would, I mean, that was in the era before the whole, before platforming became a verb. And there's a fear of like, you're platformed that person and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, those are great, though. I mean, whatever you think about James of Donald. Yeah, that's neither here nor there. I was talking about the idea. Yeah, no, it's great.

So some people might not even know the aftermath of Matt Chandler since you had some, I don't know, you know, I almost had issues. What do you want to call it at your church where you had to sit down? You describe it because I don't want to paint it in. In 2021, I, I, I, I, yeah, I just basically behaved in a way that was foolish. The elders and outside counsel didn't call what I did sinful, but foolish. That was the framework of the language.

And I was put on leave for at the time it was undetermined how long I would be on the sideline. and then I was working with our elders through a process of discovery and like, what happened? You're smarter than this. So what was going on? And so navigated with those guys, those men and some outside guys, those guys brought in to kind of work a path back to is he healthy? Okay. And then, you know, basically reinstated me after what was three months, maybe three and a half months. of, yeah, I think we could probably call it church discipline,

would be a good way to maybe frame it. And so, yeah, so I came back, August was leave, came back December, near the end of December, if I'm remembering correctly, I remember it was in December. And then, you know, you don't, it's not like that's behind us. That actually kind of becomes a part of, you know,

our culture at the village, the church I've pastored for quarter century now. I have so many questions about it. And let me be, what I don't like in this day and age is you have a local church that has a public face. Yeah. And then you have to navigate what is local church business and what is stuff you have to tell people that live in, you know, southwest Maine or something to have an opinion about. Which is beautiful. Southwest Maine is beautiful? Is it?

Okay. Yeah. Actually, I've been to Maine once. had some great lobster, like $8 a pound. And that's, I don't even, I, I would not wish that on my worst enemy how to navigate those waters, you know. So, so I, I'm trying, I want to be sensitive. I guess, because, you know, with whatever, with whatever caused you to have to step down,

quote unquote, be disciplined for a period of time, you know, the church has a responsibility to not say more than needs to be. said. Yeah. And yet say enough that people don't read between the lines and maybe read something that's inaccurate. Yeah. I just remember, you know, and, you know, I knew probably more than the average person because I, you know, I know you and I know people at the church and everything. Yeah. I would say if I was an outsider just looking on, I would have thought you had, you know, like an affair or like it's just because the language was pretty like, wow, he, he's got to, you know, And the response from the leader, you know, was like, wow, this must be serious.

And then when I found out what it was, I was like, wow, that goodness. Well, we, if anybody is curious, they can just go watch the statement from that day. We disclosed everything publicly on that day. So there wasn't like another shoe that was going to drop. There wasn't some terrible backstory. There was nothing swept under the rug. We came out and felt like, you know, for 20 years. I have encouraged the men and women of the village church to live in light, to be quick to repent,

to own the repercussions of their sin trusting in the grace of God long term. And that was an opportunity for me to do the very thing that I'd been asking our people to do. And our people by and large have done for two decades plus. And so for me, it was an opportunity to model the very church. truth of God's word that I've like really pleaded with them to walk in, you know, for multiple decades. And so when it came time to like how, how are we going to do this, not we, I was out of the conversation. But when it came time that the decision was made, just tell the truth. And we knew, even in telling the truth, that there were going to be people that wanted more information than that.

They were going to want all the information of that. And we didn't feel like they didn't feel like they owed that to anybody. So we had what we did publicly. And then we had some stuff with just the members of the village church where they could ask questions and interact. But we, they felt that as though telling the whole truth that Sunday, August 28th, 2022, that that that would be enough for. what people needed to know. And I've never bucked against that I thought there was a level of foolishness to it that even surprised me. Like if you would have taken my situation and you would

come to me and said, hey, I'm doing this. What do you think? I would have thought, that's really foolish. I would have counseled you. Hey, that's really foolish. And since my guys have been with me, know me, it really was disorienting to them. And they were deeply concerned about me. And both outside and inside, there wasn't a victim per se in this situation. And so they were like, let's make sure he's okay. So maybe church discipline is the wrong word. They just wanted to make sure I was okay spiritually, mentally. And that's what that three months was about.

I wasn't, again, the outside and inside stuff was like, no, this isn't sin. He was just a bit of an idiot. And so I was grateful for how they took care of me and my family in that time. Like I said, there wasn't a victim. What was interesting is because we thought, if we just tell the truth, it'll be fine. We told the truth and a great deal of people like, nah, there's got to be something behind it. There's got to be something more than this. So it's like You have these examples of pastors who buck the system and, you know, just leave and go off and start something new and they're vilified. And then I was a guy that like submitted to the system and and then was vilified that, oh, surely there's more than this. So it's a, it's not a, when young guys

are like, man, I'd love to be able to do one day all the things that you get to do. And I'm like, well, you might want to pray into that before you wish for it. It's just kind of a no-win situation because if the response from the leaders, the elders, wasn't as severe, people would say, oh, they're not taking it seriously. And then when it is pretty severe, they're like, oh, there must be more. And if you explain anything you say in a spirit of honesty, people can accuse you of, oh, you're just trying to look good. Or if you actually respond with, I submitted it to my elders. And, And if you, let's just say you were actually being honest and repentive and humble and everything. Just, if you do that and you respond that way, then people say, oh, you're just trying to look good. You know, what about all the people that were hurt? If there were people that were hurt. You know, it's just, is that, I mean, it just seems like there's a no-win situation and how to respond when you're in the public sphere.

I think that's probably something my elders could speak to and how they kind of navigated the process. I think everybody felt that this was a no-win situation, but we wanted to please the Lord and serve the men and women of the village faithfully. The elders of the village church aren't overly worried about the guy in Southwest Maine. They don't feel like they have to give an account for that guy. They don't feel like, but they are deeply concerned about the men and women of the village church. And so their lead foot was going to be to shepherd them and to care for them. and whatever happened outside of those walls,

the elders, I don't think, were overly concerned about that, aware, but their priority had to be the men and women of the village. That's good. How has it been the last, I mean, how did it affect the church? Like both in the moment and also like, yeah, well, I think in the moment, it was super disorienting for everyone. There was a group in the church that was super frustrated with the elders, thought they were heavy-handed in the situation.

And then there was another group. that was just disoriented because I'd been their pastor since they became Christians at 19 and were shook by my foolishness. After that, the Lord's been really gracious and kind. That the evidence that we're a okay place to not be okay, but Jesus won't leave you there, that that moment for us where pastor is practicing the very thing he's, He's encouraged us. He's not running. He's not bucking. He's submitting to the process. He's trusting the Lord. Created an environment where all the more now people who have been hurt by churches,

who have been felt condemned and thrown out by churches feel safe at the village for that. So it's like, you know, it's not like that's over and it's in the rearview mirror. No, no, no. It's deeply shaped our culture. and the Lord's redeemed it in a thousand beautiful ways. How have you grown as a Christian and a leader or a preacher in the last few years? What's changed in your life? Well, you know, I think I've had these moments over the last 24, 25 years where the Lord, yet again, brought me low, but brought me back to his church, his ministry, his kingdom, not mine.

Like I look back in 2009 with brain cancer before that. You know, the first seven years of my marriage was a disaster, maybe even a nightmare for both me and Lauren. And so I just keep having these moments. It's like, man, am I this slow to learn? But I think I'm just like anyone else in the kingdom. And you read the Old Testament, read the new, we have a tendency to drift. And it can be the Lord's kindness for us to enter into seasons that are difficult and painful that we might remember yet anew that blessed are the poor and spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God. Blessed or the beggarly, blessed or the lowly, blessed are the ones who understand that it's

all grace and all belongs to the Lord. And the moments that we've discussed and even more have been low moments of my life where the Lord has met me with his compassion and grace. and then not wasted that moment to form in me and transform me more into the image of Christ. Did you know that 30% of Americans grind their teeth at night? That means a bunch of you are clenching and grinding your teeth right now. And if that's you, then it's time to join over 350,000 Americans, including myself, and get yourself a custom-fitted Remy Nightgarde.

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amazing. It's literally my go-to coffee these days. It's also dedicated to high ethical standards, not only in ensuring that their beans are high quality, but also in paying their farmers a fair wage. Right now, Tipica has three different varieties available with different profiles that satisfy each of your different palettes. Just go and visit Tipica Coffeeroasters.com to purchase your first bag and get 10% off with the code T-I-T-R at checkout. That's Tipica Coffee Roasters, okay? So T-I-P-I-K-A Coffee Roasters.com and use the code T-I-T-R to get 10% off your first bag. you mentioned that in your book that your first seven years were you said yeah you said the first seven years of my marriage were a nightmare here you said disaster i didn't know that bad because when i oh man

according to your instagram account you have like the most perfect marriage and no no i've been very honest since day one once we were healed up some and warned gave me the green light so i'm coming from a background with a great deal of abuse um a great deal of i'd call it maybe no neglect in some ways. Background like your family, your upbringing? Yeah, family of origins. Physical, emotional, spiritual abuse? Yeah, all of it.

I mean, you couldn't, you name one and it was in my home to some degree. Wow. And but then when I became a Christian, in my mind, I am going to have the best Christian marriage of all time. And I mean, I read every book. Like, I mean, I'm a researcher by nature. And so, man, when I'm coming towards Christian marriage, I'm buying every Christian marriage book I can. And I'm coming in just springloaded for a, marriage that's going to be everything I ever dreamed it could be. And then Lauren,

totally different background, just total church girl, but her struggles were like people pleasing and perfectionism. And so I like to joke, it's not a, it's like a ha ha with tears. I came into my marriage with like a freight train of baggage. And she brought in a backpack. Now, it was that Dora the Explorer backpack that it was like Mary Poppins bag. It was much deeper than you would think. I mean, people pleasing and perfectionism can destroy your life just like drugs and violence will just one gets you arrested and one doesn't. And here we are trying to make this thing work where I, without knowing it, am asking her to heal parts of me that she has no power to heal. And when she can't do that, growing in frustration, but not wanting to be my dad, so I'm not going

to be explosive about it. I'm just going to be cold and I'm just going to be distant. and then she's a people pleaser and a perfectionist. And so for seven years, I thought Lauren's the problem and God help me, she was thinking I'm the problem. So I nearly crushed her in those seven years. And by the grace of Lord, he broke through. But we needed to heal from each other for quite a while after he started that process. It was probably another two to three years before we entered into the season that

we're still growing into now, which is just the best. I had no idea it could be this way. When I just let God be God and stopped asking her to be God for me, letting the spirit of God heal me and not asking Lauren to heal me, that was a game changer. And the spirit freeing her up from people pleasing and perfectionism. I mean, now she's just such a force, just such a prophetic, discerning, deep-spirited, hilarious, ferocious woman of God. She could have never become that if I continue that pressure on her to be my agent of healing. When you had to step down from the church a few years ago, how did that affect your marriage? Yeah, you know what, Lauren was, I think Lauren would say two of her more favorite times with me in ministry was COVID in that season.

because she had me all to herself, where it was her and I in a trench, you know, like, she was not, like, I have to help her realize that I, there's some ownership I have to take in this. She, she was looking at outside factors and looking at what she perceived to be injustice and, yeah, things that weren't fair. And I had to remind her, and yet, none of that would be happening if I, if I wasn't so foolish. And so her lead foot towards me, like she knows, let the crickets chirp out there. She knows I am a one woman man. She knows my eyes, my mind, my heart belonged to her. She knows it. She's experienced it. She lives with it. Like she can, yeah, even in this situation, like she, she looks at my phone all the time. I'd open it up and

show it to your viewers right now. I'll just go to my For You page. You can see I'm not, like I'm not that guy. I am like so in love with Lauren Chandler that she just for all the other things that people were saying like she knew them not to be true. In fact, she posted not long after it all about hey, he's the man you thought he was. So that she she just actually enjoyed three months of it just being her and me because some of my closest friends, the dark part of that season for me is Like some of my closest friends are elders. And there was this distance there because they were working this, but couldn't share with me. And so who am I supposed to talk to about how disoriented I am, about how confused I am?

I couldn't go talk to my friends in the church about it. And my friends are my closest, my 20-year friendships are on the board. And so it was just Lauren and I in a trench. And so if she could hop on with us, she would go COVID in that season. Those were sweet marital seasons for us because I had him all to myself. Yeah, yeah. I could, I thought that totally makes sense. And your kids too?

Is that like wasn't, it didn't just from your family? I mean, that was, you know, some of the controversies that we've gone through at the village, they were easier to go through when my kids weren't online. But for my, for my teenage and college, college edge kids. to see online like these theories about how I'm cheating on their mom and how, like I've always been nervous that the church, Big Sea Church, would behave in such a way as to embitter my children towards her.

And so that was a, that was a tough season for them, like watching their anger grow. I was far more concerned about their anger than anything else. Toward the church or towards people out there or, just people who were saying wild things, like things they just made up, things there were no evidence of that outside people didn't find, that everybody internally knew wasn't there.

But there was this narrative being drawn out. Like it was in People magazine. It was like the slowest month of news, maybe in the history of America. So I was the news. And man, they were seeing it. And they were seeing people chirp about it. Oh, geez. Yeah, that's so true.

Yeah, we've had seasons where I feel like, if I, where I feel like, again, Big C. Church or maybe some Christians, maybe it's online. Maybe it's just weird Christians in our circles or whatever. But it's sometimes Christian slash Big C Church has been one of the greatest challenges for my kids to following Jesus. Yeah. I can just, which is so, I don't know, disorienting. It's like, you know, and there's been church experiences that have been amazing. There's been church. Beautiful. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.

And so that was a lot of ministry to my children in that season where, you know, in their minds, here's my dad that's given his life to serving you guys and loving you guys and sacrificing for you guys. and then, but I got to circle back around in the same conversation with Lauren, and yet Daddy was foolish in such a way that part of this is on me. And had I been wiser, had I been smarter, than none of this would be happening. And so trying to help them navigate and continue to see the daddy's just as much in need of the gospel and the grace of God as anybody else in earth. That Jesus isn't a tool I'm using for my career.

that this is real stuff. And we're talking about real complex people who, you know, part of what I wanted to communicate in the book was that sanctification's not up into the right. It's like this horizontal coil where every high and low is still moving you towards becoming like Jesus. And that, on my coil, that's a low. And it's a low not because of outside forces.

It's a low because of my own foolishness. Yeah. Having gone through what you've gone through last few years, Is that one of the main reasons why you wrote the book? Or was this a book, do you even plan? No, I think it's, the book is becoming like. I think it's 25 years, maybe 30 years of ministry, hands-on ministry with the people of God. So I am a pastor who writes and I am a pastor who travels around and preaches.

I am not a preacher who pastors. I am not a author who pastors. I am not a conference speaker who pastors. who pastors, I am almost quarter of a century in with the same group of people in one location, my whole adult life, basically. I got there when I was 28. We didn't have kids when we got to the village. I have a 23-year-old, 20-year-old, and 16-year-old now. Wow. And so it's just getting to watch, watch how Jesus forms people. Like, that's a privilege of being in one place for as long as I've been in one place.

Like I've watched people endure. I've watched them be disappointed and disillusioned. I've watched the complete discombobulation when you have been asking God to do something that the Bible says is good. And it just doesn't play out like you thought it would. And what happens on the other side of that, like the men and women at the village church who buried children. And there's been dozens of them over my quarter of a same.

century here, like seeing where they are now in various degrees of recovering from that loss, not that you ever recover, you become something new. But watching how Jesus hadn't wasted a single tear, he hadn't wasted a single heartbreak. He hadn't wasted. That's why in the book, man, I sat down with a lot of our 80-year-olds. Like, I wanted to talk to Jane Beckett. I wanted to talk to Richard Patterson. I wanted to talk with these 80-year-olds who are still on fire for Jesus and going, How do you do this when the world is such a mixture of beauty and brutality? How do you hang on this long? How have you become what you are right now?

And I wanted to put their stories in the book. We have much to learn from them. And our culture is so hyper-fixated on young and beautiful that they're forgetting. Look, just because you're cute and quasi-famous, I don't know that you're the subject matter expert here. Like the subject matter experts are those 70 year olds and 80 year olds who are still in it. And so I wanted to weave their stories throughout that book because they're the ones we should be learning from. What did you learn from those 80 year old saints? What's the secret sauce to stain? Yeah, well, you know, if I could boil it down, this is going to sound like

bumper sticker theology, which is why I hate it, but it's just true. If you don't quit, you win. If you cling to Jesus, come what may expect the difference. difficulty, don't be anxious about it, but Jesus was pretty clear, in this world, you will have trouble. And so they're going to point to humility as the secret sauce. You stay low, both with God and man, and you cling to this promises are true, and that there'll be a mystery in that, this side of glory. And that was their refrain to the person. Wow. Regardless of personality type or, you know, extrovert, introvert, lead from up front elder to in the background, like even a lot of people at the church didn't know who they were.

Wow. Yeah, I love that in the book that you tell the stories of these aged saints who have been doing this for a long time. That's where the, that's where the magic is right now. Got to figure out how to platform them a bit more. They don't know how he's tactic. No, I know. Trust me. A lot of them are like, just call me. Or let's just get together face to face. my dear mom she's 83 she was visiting my brother a few years ago and uh she wanted to find a um a sprouts or uh whole foods or some store that had something she needed i kid you not she calls the police department to get directions to sprouts and she says that they gave me directions or whatever and she's hand right because she doesn't how to use a map on it she doesn't understand like

we can look at our smartphones and get places. She just stresses her out. So she calls the police department. Won't be long. So that's you and me, bro. I know. My party. Won't be long.

Already I have to go, hey, read, that's my 20 year old. Hey, can you make my phone keeps doing this? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

So yeah, they're my IT department here at the house. They mock me and how I take pictures. Like the way I don't know. I try to hold it just like they do. And they're like, look at the rumor, you know.

I just have them take it now. Hey, take a picture of this. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. You talk a lot about highs and lows in the book, and I love that coil. Yeah. Analogy. So why the, maybe unpack the coil a little bit instead of, you know, people often, you know,

will draw like a linear where if people are, yeah, people watch this kind of go up and the down, up and down, up and down. And gradually you're getting higher and higher. So you're moving towards, you know, you're not just stagnant. But sometimes when you have several downs, you don't realize that you're still been kind of elevating a little bit. But you used the coil analogy. What was what was behind that? Well, I wanted to show movement forward, right? Because you are always moving forward. You are always growing. But, you know, the Christian life, it's like a tree. It's not like a light switch.

And so if you're thinking the Christian life's light switch, oh, I've got this struggle. Let me do this and pop. Now we're done. Or I've got this compulsion. Let me let me go to this thing. and have the Holy Spirit zap me and then it'll be gone. Like you're setting yourself up for some significant disappointment. And I believe in breakthrough, man. I'm a charismatic. I've experienced it, but it is not the normal progression is more like a tree. You can stare at it and you're not going to see it grow.

And it's going to have to endure seasons where there's not a lot of rain. And it's going to have to survive some freezes. And it's going to have to hold up against the wind. And all of that is going to make it that oak of rite. righteousness that Isaiah writes about. So if it's not my, the way I was thinking is, okay, if it's not up and to the right, what is it? And so I, there's always movement.

You're always growing even if you feel like you're not. God's doing something if you're a Christian. So what actually does it look like? And that's when the coil metaphor came to me where yeah, this is it. Like in a coil, every high and every low actually is. still moving you forward. So 2009, I've got brain cancer. I'm moving forward. God's accomplishing things in that. And then some of the controversy, God's accomplishing something that. Difficulty in my marriage, God's accomplishing something in that. Dark night of the soul.

God's accomplishing something in that. But he's also accomplishing that in these epic highs when it just feels like the spirit himself is waking me up in the morning to spend time with me. when fruit is just falling off the tree and into the basket and evangelism is reaping a harvest that's abnormal for, you know, what I've experienced before. Like, God is at work in all of that. And so the coil metaphor, I want to become the predominant image. Think tree, not light switch, and you'll endure because you'll expect. You've had some serious valleys, man.

Well, and that's just what's wild, Preston, and you know this as somebody who's in ministry, that's just the stuff people know about. Right. Well, that's what I was going to have. Like my own personal things, things inside my family, things with my parents, things with my kids, things with, you know, like there's never been a public season that didn't also have private struggles attached to it. Oh, yeah.

And so, but I'm still happily here saying he's good and he's worth it and he's trustworthy. And if you'll just cling to him in that. season. And that's why I tried to highlight early in the book, some of the wilder prayers in the Bible were like David is saying, how long, oh, Lord, will you forsake me? Will you forsake me forever? Jeremiah says, you deceived me and I was deceived. And I would say that kind of praying is almost absent in the evangelical imagination. Like somebody who's watching this right now, if you're in your home group or your Sunday school class and you, you know, you're going around the room praying and somebody prayed, you deceived me and I was deceived?

You might pull that brother aside. Like, look, we don't talk to the Lord that way here. You should have a healthy fear of the Lord. But those are prayers that are in the Bible for a reason. Like even Moses arguing with the Lord when the Lord's like, hey, you go, I'll send an angel. And Mo's like, hold up for here. Like, no, no, no.

These are your people. This was your idea you called them out. We're not going without you. And like that kind of honest praying. That's the pure and heart. chapter where Jesus isn't saying, blessed or the perfect in heart. He's saying, blessed or the pure in heart. Like, Jesus doesn't want any distance from you. He wants you mind, body, and soul. And almost everybody I know has this area of their lives that they're trying to hide from the Lord,

or at least trying to create distance from the Lord and to work on so that then they can go be in the presence of the Lord. But that's an idea of foreign in the scriptures. No, no, no. This is, Blessed or the Pure and Heart. I'm disappointed. I'm disoriented. I hate this about me. And now we're in, you know, Blessed or the poor in spirit.

It's these beatitudes, they start to dance, man. They form this really beautiful dance of intimacy with Jesus who wants no distance from us. Wow. Man, that's, so Terminal Brain Cants. How did you, Terminal, like,

did they tell you, like, how you have a, A few months left to live. Two to three years was my prognosis. Two, three years. Yep. So it was anaplastic oligodendro glioma, who grade three, golf ball size tumor in my right frontal lobe.

You can even still see where my hair is thin there from the radiation. And you can still see the scar, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And so full resection of the right frontal lobe, six weeks, radiation, five days a week, and then 18 months, high-dose chemo. And that was for two to three years to live. And the Lord and his great.

healed me. And he used chemo and great doctors to do it. What was that like for your family? I just, I can't even imagine. Yeah, it was, it was brutal. I don't like, the floor fell out from under me. Here's what was wild. And here goes back to my own pride. So I'm pastor in the village church, crazy young. I mean, like median age 26, 27. I had been at the village a full decade before I did the funeral of a 70-year-old man who had loved Jesus. I was burying 26-year-olds, 15-year-olds, eight-year-olds. And I remember I show up at the hospital in intensive care, and a woman named Doddy Ponds, whose grandson was dying supposedly at the time. He's still alive. Hugged me and just started weeping, saying, what are we going to do? Like, how do I make

sense of this? How do I? And I put in my head at that time, I, I'm going to prepare us to suffer. And I just began to, every time there was suffering in the scripture, I was highlighting it. I was talking about it all the time. And here's my own pride. This whole time, I'm thinking, I've got to get this church ready to suffer. And the Lord and His kindness was like, that's cute. I'm going to get you ready to suffer.

And so I was fine after the seizure. I was fine after the surgery. I just thought, okay, they got it. They're going to give me some meds. I'm going to be fine. And then that day, I'll never forget it. I'm in this office with what's going to be my team. It was my neurosurgeon, what was going to be my neuroancologist,

my radiation oncologist, my wife, my closest friend, and a guy named Brian Miller and my parents and my in-laws. And they were like, hey, it's worse than we were hoping for. It's anaplastic, oligodendro, glioma, who grade three, it's not good. And they tried to encourage me. My neurosurgeon was like, no, I had a patient that had this. He lived for 10 years. Well, that's 38. I was like, wait, so I'm at best, like, you're trying to encourage me with 48? That's not encouraging me. I have a six-month-old. I have a six-year-old. So I die when she's 16. I mean, that, and it was like the floor fell out. And then I pastor this

big church. And, you know, a very famous Christian guy, tweeted out what was happening. And so then there was this, like most of the people in my church found out because this guy tweeted it out before we could do any like communicating. And so then I had to start making these calls. And I couldn't talk, man. I just couldn't talk that like the floor felt. So I was having to hand the phone to my wife to just communicate with other leaders in the church so we could let the church know what we had just found out. And man, I had three or four weeks where everywhere I looked, I just saw loss. Like my little six-year-old daughter, I couldn't even look at her, man. I mean, I could still feel it in my chest. Like, all I thought when I saw her is somebody else is going to get to walk her down the aisle.

Like, I'm not going to get to walk her down the aisle. You know, I'm coming from this bloodline that I'm trying to put in the ground with me by the grace of God. So I want to train my son to be the kind of of man that pleases the Lord. I want 200 years of violence and perversity to go in the ground with me. But now that's going to be some other man's job. I'm telling you, I, everywhere I looked, I saw heartbreaking loss. And the only way I know to cope was I was putting all my headphones. I was listening to worship music, fighting to trust the Lord. And it was my wife, it was Lauren, that eventually pushed me, like literally pushed me against a wall and said, take out your headphones. And she said, I don't know how this is going to end, but I know it's not

going to end like this. You take out those headphones and you get on that floor and play with your kids. And it kind of shook me out of it. And then I, you know, I was able to be caught by my doctrine at that point. All that stuff that I'd been teaching everybody else. I was like, such an idiot, so proud that this was just as much for you as it was for them. And it took several weeks for that ground to come back under my feet. Golly. I've been thinking a lot about Christian leaders who have

suffered or how suffering builds a certain kind of maturity, wisdom, I don't know, experience. All that stuff that James said it would, right? Right. Yeah, yeah. And then when I, and this is I'm not telling young pastors around and get hit by a car or something, you know, but like,

you know, young, gifted pastors who haven't suffered. And again, through no choice of their own or whatever. Yeah, I hadn't. I mean, I hadn't until I did. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. Everything I touched turned to gold until I got married.

And then everything I was touching but my marriage was turning to gold. Okay. And then cancer. Jeez. How did that shape you? as a, as a past, yeah, I think in some ways I don't take myself as seriously as maybe I did at one point. I think I have an immense amount of compassion and empathy for other people that isn't my natural disposition. Okay.

He has built a kind of resilience in me that I so trust we're going to get through whatever this is now. And yeah, I know where to go when it all falls apart in a real tangible way. You pastor differently, especially when you encounter people that have suffered. Like you're different in how you approach that. I mean, you just are. You just are. It's a gift. It's the kind of gift no one wants but everybody needs.

And if you live long enough, you're going to get it. Yeah. Like there's nobody listening right now whose whole world can't be. be turned upside down because their phone rings in 30 minutes. Right. Just that's, look, the great theologian sting talked about how fragile we are. It's just true. We're so much more fragile than we think we are.

Life's so much fragile than we think it is. Yeah. And the hope is that we have this generous, kind, heavenly father who sits at the center of reality and he's for us and he's not against us. I love how, I love how honest you are in the book with a lot of, of the stuff we're talking about now. So you had those big things through the three, your first seven years of marriage, terminal brain cancer, you know, having to step down from the church for a period time. Are there other? Yeah, there's probably ones. They're not my story to tell.

Okay. Yeah. You know, maybe one day they will be. But we, you know, our kids have had different seasons, been, you know, gone through difficult things that broke our hearts. And, you know, you have to navigate there. And there ain't no kid. There ain't, there ain't no pain like kid pain. Oh my gosh. There ain't no pain like kid pain. Like even I remember I remember waking up in the hospital after my seizure and the sweet, you know, emergency room doctor just scooted his little seat next to me and said, you've got a mass in your right frontal lobe. We're going to need to send you to, you're going to need to schedule an appointment with a neurosurgeon. And my first thought was, okay, it's me. I can do me. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure I could do Lauren. I'm not sure I could do my kids. Now, if that was my story, then there would have been grace there for me in that. It's not my story. So there's not, like I know somebody would hear that and go, yeah, me either, brother. But I've seen enough people walk through that now to know there's a special grace that is given to them in that season. But yeah, there's been plenty that they're just not my stories to tell. But there's, there's been, I don't think that I had a year without significant. heartbreak until the last three. Really?

And the last three, it's always a mixture of, you know, beauty and brutality. Life is just that way. When you pastor a church, you know, there's always someone in heartbreak. There's always someone who just got the call. There's always someone who just died randomly out of nowhere. I mean, we had a guy that just had a stomach bug, like a man who owned a steel company, was using that thing for the gospel. I mean, given his non-Christian workers,

like free vacation time to build buildings in poorer countries, just got the stomach bug as he was throwing up tore his aorta and died. This is a man that was deeply embedded in the life of our church, serving Jesus, beautiful family. I mean, it's just stuff like that all the time. My own personal pain. I don't know that I've had a year until the last three. that didn't have some sort of significant, like my heart's hurting in a significant way.

Oh, Lou, man. Do you think, I mean, the amount of suffering that your church has endured and you included, is that normal? Like, when you talk to Pat, friends with other churches similar size, are they sharing stories like this, too? Or it seems like there's a higher number. I don't know. I just don't want to. Because of how I became a Christian and because of my own story and following Christ,

I'm just not going to be the guy that doesn't highlight the hard stuff. It serves no one. Like rainbows and unicorns aren't most people's life. And it's not most people's journey. And I already said it. Everybody listening to this, their whole life can change with a phone call today. And so I want to set you up to be able to love Jesus and trust Jesus. well through that. And I don't serve anyone well if I'm wearing a cape. And so I just refuse to put it on.

I will never be the guy that wears the cape. I'm just not going to do it. I'm going to be very honest about my own doubts, my own struggles, my own. And I found that that has created a church over a quarter century that is honest, always grimy, and has some of the more beautiful stories of redemption ever. Honestly, yeah. I'll, I'll, always try to choose honesty over saving face. I mean, it gets so exhausting trying to make yourself look better than you really are. And it doesn't draw attention to the gospel, draws attention to yourself. It doesn't magnify Jesus.

I mean, yeah. Yeah, my strengths will help you some, but my weaknesses will help you trust Jesus. Yeah, yeah. So the last three years have been, have been. Oh, man. Good. been exceptional. Why is that?

I needed it. Well, you know, 22, I was just like, I'm coming off a, like a 12-year run here where I have just, it's felt crushing. And I know you'll give me whatever strength I need, but man, I need a season of peace, Lord. And I was specifically asking, I need a season of peace. And I got this beautiful prophetic word, a guy who's, from Scotland, you know, just came up to me. I was at a conference. I wasn't even preaching at the conference. I was just there, just trying to get closer to the furnace myself. And he said, man,

I was just praying for you. And I saw this image. You were all beat up and haggard and you were wearing this belt. And around the belt, there were these like seven, eight, nine, ten. I lost count like swords. And each of those swords or knives, they were bent and nicked and chipped. and I could just see like you were haggard and exhausted and then you're at this river and you're going to cross the river and there's all these people behind you

and it was like you were heading into the land of milk and honey you were headed into like a season of peace and vibrancy and right before you got to the river this giant Goliath walked out in front of you and you just hung your head and I saw

Jesus pull like a braveheart-like broadsword off your back and cut that Goliath straight down, like cut him in half. And he became these doors that swung open by which you crossed the river and into this promised land and this throng of people came with you and Lauren. It was Lauren and I both haggard and beat up. And so the way I interpreted that is those banged up, nick-chipped, bent swords were the decade or so of difficulty, and the Lord was telling me, I'm going to enter, I'm going to let you enter into a rest in me. And so the last three years at the village have been by and large

without any significant incidences that are difficulty and messy, they caught the public eye. We've seen more people come to know Jesus in the last three years. that we baptized more people last year than we have any other year in my quarter century there. The Holy Spirit's been doing this really unique, profound work among us. And even whether it's my relationship with Lauren or what's going on in the lives of my kids, it's just been a season of blessing over the last three years, not without, you know, not without some angst, not without some pain, but nothing like the 12 years before that,

10 years before that. And so it's just been beautiful. It is that season right now at the village in particular, maybe even outside the village, where it's like fruits falling off the tree straight into the basket without with very little work. And so it's like wind and sails. That's the best way I know to describe it. It's just the normal effort is producing abnormal fruit.

And it's, if he'll let me stay here. or for the rest of my run. I would love for that glory portal to stay open. I don't know that it will. That's not my business. My business is to be faithful regardless of season. But I needed this last three years if, like I was saying to the Lord, if I'm going to make it, if I'm going to finish well, I need to just breathe for a little bit.

And in his generosity, he didn't know me that, but in his generosity, he gave it to me. That's a crazy detailed prophetic word. I didn't know you're that charismatic. I thought you're charismatic with a seatbelt, but you, you think that's a great. No, no, no, I cut the seatbelt. I cut the seatbelt in 2017. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Good. Got a lot of charismatic listeners. Like who gets to decide which doctrine you put the seatbelt on for? Like, I hate that illustration now. You're just like, well. I'm reformed with the seatbelt. Yeah.

I believe in evangelism, but with the seatbelt on. I believe in disciple making, but I'm going to keep my seatbelt on. I don't even know what that means. If the book says it, we should seek it. well played well played what do you hope people uh walk away looking like after reading your book what kind of formation do you hope to accomplish and such a great question if you are a Christian um Jesus knew what he was buying on the cross that's what I want you to know like like he's not looking you know, now that it's 2026, he's not looking at where you are. And he's like, like with a furrowed brow.

Like he's so disoble. Oh, really? I shed my blood for that. That's not what's happening here. Jesus is trying to close the distance between the two of you. And I just need you to know that if you find yourself low in this season, like, well, Jesus kicked off his whole ministry by going, blessed or the poor in spirit. Like yours is the kingdom of heaven. Oh, you hate your sin? Like you hate your compulsions and that besetting sin that you can't seem to get blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted. Do you hear the invitation in these? They're like, oh, your heartbroken over your sin. Come towards me. Don't move from me when you stumble and fall, when you screw up again. Get back in here. My blood covers you. And I think that mindset

helps on the long journey home. That's really what I wanted to call. the book, Long Journey Home. But the publisher is like, ah, people don't tend to buy negative titles. Like if you're really weary and exhausted in your faith, you're probably not picking up the long journey home. So try to think of it. And so great, you know what that low season's doing? It's making you more like Jesus. Yeah, that's good. The book is becoming like Jesus. It's the everyday journey to living a life of holiness. It's out over. Yeah, it just came out. Oh, no, it's about to come out, right? No, it's out. It's live. Living in the world right now.

Oh, it is. Oh, yeah, look at that. Today. It comes out today. Today. It came out today. It came out. Well, at the time of recording.

But, uh, all right. Well, it's available. Sweet. Matt, thanks so much for being a guest, man. Dude, so much fun. It's great catching up. We should do it offline sometime. Yeah, I agree.

All right. Have a good. Oh, man. All right. Love you, bro.