Theology in the Raw - Reaching North Korean Refugees with the Gospel: Dan Chung

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Dan Chung is the Executive Director of Crossing Borders, an organization that brings the gospel to North Korean refugees. Dan is one of the foremost experts on the North Korean refugee crisis, with relationships with both organizations and scholars researching the ongoing developments of the Korean Peninsula. Dan’s book, A Hard Freedom: The Dreams and Trauma of North Korean Refugees, chronicles his insights and observations in his work with Crossing Borders.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

North Koreans, they are very measured with what they say. You have to sing praises to the regime on the outside, no matter how you were feeling on the inside. Your family could have been hauled off to jail for no reason, but you still on the outside have to act as if you love it, and this is paradise on Earth. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology Around My guest today is Dan Chung, who is the executive director of Crossing Borders, which is an organization that works with North Korean refugees. Dan is one of the foremost experts on the North Korean refugee crisis and his book, A Hard Freedom, The Dreams and Trauma of North Korean Refugees Chronicles

his insights and observations and his work with Crossing Borders. I loved this conversation. I learned a ton, as you will to, and as I'm sure you know or at least can assume, This is some really unique and important work that Dad is involved in. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Dan Chom. Dan, thanks so much for coming on Theology, Ra. I'm so excited to talk to you and learn about your very interesting ministry. I'm curious, just to start, like, what got you interested in the work you're now doing? Is this been like a lifelong interest?

Was it something more recent? Or what sparked it? Yeah, I mean, well, thanks first of all for, Kristen, for having me on. I really appreciate the opportunity. What prompted it was my best friend from college. We were fresh out of the University of Illinois in 2001. And my best friend in July of 2001 went on a short-term missions trip to China where he met North Korean refugees.

He wasn't expecting to do so, but he did. You know, growing up as a South Korean immigrant in America, my parents were of the mind of not telling me too much about the problems from the old country. So I didn't really hear very much about North Korea. I knew it was communist, but I didn't know about all the deep well of politics and things like that, the feelings that,

and prejudices that South Koreans have for the country. And so I didn't know what a North Korean refugee was. There had been a famine which drove North Koreans out of their country at the time. The famine happened from around 1995 to 1998 where North Korea basically became a failed state. It stopped delivering food, even though, you know, as a communist government, everything was centralized and the people were completely dependent on the government for food. They stopped delivering food to Beata regions of North Korea and they were just left to their own devices. Wow. And so that drove people out of the country into China where Mike was in 2001.

He came back and he told me these stories and I just could not believe it, you know, as a Korean American who knew very little of that kind of struggle. I just couldn't, I couldn't think about anything else. Wow. When you, when you say drove them out, I've always heard. And I might ask some questions that are super dumb or basic. This is not, I remember watching a documentary a while back on it and then news things here and there. And then you're not sure like what's real, what's not? So like, what do you say they, because of the famine they left, I assume it's, is it illegal for anybody to leave. So they had to like escape, not just like, you know, travel to China. They actually had to

escape the country. Exactly. They had to actually escape the country. And the border between North Korea and China was very porous. It's a, the Korean peninsula, it's a peninsula on both sides is water. And so the only way to escape is north or south. The southern border is one of the most heavily militarized borders in the world, the DMZ, as people call it. So the northern border was really in effect the only option for many, many people, most people who escaped. Okay. Can you give us a snapshot of what life is like in North Korea? Have you actually been inside North Korea or just work with refugees on the Chinese side? Okay. Yeah, as someone who worked with refugees, I am a pariah or a law in this curious. It would not be good for me.

So what do you know about the society? Is it, yeah, as oppressive and dark as we assume it is? Yeah, I think so. I mean, so people have different perceptions in North Korea, but yes, the rumors are generally true where the country is a totalitarian dictatorship. There is no freedom of movement, meaning you can't go to the next town over without permission. There's no freedom of speech. There's no freedom of thought. You can actually be jailed for the crime of, quote, wrong thinking, and there's no trial for that, actually. Citizens have to go to a weekly small group meeting where they confess any errant thoughts that they've had against the regime. There's someone always keeping tabs on these meetings. They have a deep well of information on

each of their citizens. You can be jailed without trial, just on suspicion. The prison system in North Korea is comparable by many human rights experts to Nazi Germany. So the consequences for anyone who screws up just a little bit is immense. So yes, the rumors of the totalitarian nature of the government are very true. Wow. Yeah. And are people, do they seem very oppressive? or is it kind of like a surface like, oh, this is great because they're not allowed to like not like it, if that makes sense?

Or, I mean, you're dealing with refugees who are allowed to, I'm sure, be more honest with their experience in North Korea. What do they say? Yeah. Yeah. How about you? You have to be very wise. You know, North Koreans are pretty cagey people by nature. you know, they are very measured with what they say because they have to be. It's very difficult to gain their trust.

So, yes, on the outside, you have to act as if, you know, to borrow a term from the Lego movie, everything is awesome. Okay. Right? You have to sing praises to the regime on the outside, no matter how you are feeling on the inside. Your family could have been hauled off to jail for no reason, but you still on the outside have to act as if you love it and this is paradise on earth. In fact, the regime claimed that they lived in paradise on earth for a long time. There was a complete information blackout through the 1990s where, you know, whatever the North Korean government said or fed to its people.

was basically gospel. And so they said, you know, we know it's hard. Even during the famine, they said, we know it's hard here, but it's actually much worse on the outside. And when, you know, early on in our work, when Mike moved out to China in 2003, one of the things that we did for people who newly escaped North Korea was we sat them in front of the TV.

and they saw Times Square. They saw Seoul and Tokyo, and they realized very quickly that they had been living a lie. So yes, on the outside, in North Korea, you do have to act a certain way. And you might have seen news footage of the leaders. Now two leaders have died. Kim Il-sung, the founder, in the 90s.

died and Kim Jong-il died in 2013. And you see people going berserk at a statue or a procession. And that's because people are there watching you, taking notes on how hard you cry, how hard you mourn. And if you are trying to get into the good graces, back into the good graces of the government, you should go more often and make even a bigger show. So, yes, it is on the outside, very, very difficult to gauge what is what. And so when you're, when you encounter a refugee and are building a relationship,

do you see that posture still kind of there? Like, does it take a while for them to, I guess, be more honest with their experience there? or is that just kind of built into them to not speak negatively of the government? They're very measured with their words. And, you know, ministry to these people, you know, we've been doing it since 2003 officially. It's very difficult in that way where you're not really sure if they're just telling you what you want to hear

in order to maybe get something or what they perceive as something, you know, we're American. They know that America is very wealthy coming in. And so, yes, it's in many ways very difficult to get to know these people beyond what they allow. But we believe that over the years we have formed many, many very genuine relationships. And they, you know, we've built trust with them because since 2003, as Americans doing, this illegal work in China, you know, our lives were in danger as well. There was a bit of danger for us. So in that way, we were sort of stakeholders in this risk with them as they lived in China. So we did

develop some trust, but it is very hard to know how deep we went or how affected this ministry actually was because that. Okay. Well, let's let's yeah, back up. And I want to hear about crossing borders, the ministry you're involved in. You've been the executive director, I believe, for over a decade. Tell us about the work you do. And I would love to get as much of a like a concrete picture. So, so I could kind of see like, what is this work that you do? Yeah. So Mike came back in 2001. He was, he still had a full-time job. You know, we were all out of college working. And so, but he decided that he would quit his job and move out to China eventually. So in 2003, January 1st, 2003, he took a one trip ticket out there with a double bag.

Looking back on it, I can't believe he did that. In order to work with North Korean refugees? In order to work with refugees. So move to China. And would he be, you said he's not legally allowed to be doing this, so he's going over there with a lot of risk involved? Yes. Okay. All right.

Yeah, it is illegal to do the work that we do. China is very suspicious of outsiders and they have been historically. And so, especially those who purport to be Christian and spreading the gospel, they're very, very sensitive to that. And on top of that, they do not want their human rights violations to be leaked out into the greater world because there's investment, especially when we started, investment money into China was pouring in. And so they had to put on a good face, I guess, for the rest of the world. So there was a lot at stake for them to keep this under wraps. Nevertheless, Mike moved out there in 2003, and we immediately started helping some of our friends started giving. And, you know, back then it was more of an emergency situation where people were coming out of starvation.

And so we were throwing money around, you know, we were giving resources. it was an emergency situation. So as North Koreans come out into China, because China's relationship with North Korea, China decided to make it as difficult as possible for these North Koreans who escape. And so while North Koreans are escaping a certain type of suffering in North Korea,

unbeknownst to them, they were escaping into something else. We had a woman, we were helping a woman who, in the famine, lost her family of five. She lost all four of her family member, and she told us about the time that her last child died in her arms. He was literally wasting away in her arms, and he asked,

his mom. Mom, before I die, I just want a bowl of rice. And they had nothing at that point. And so she said, okay, I'll sell my shirt. Literally one of her last possessions, I'll go to the market. I'll sell my shirt. And I'll get you your bowl of rice. And he smiled. And he, like, played with a button on her shirt. And he perished. And she watched all of her children. and perish. And so without anything, she left for China. And she did not know the geopolitical relationship between North Korea and China.

And, you know, China has a gender disparity because of the one child policy, which came in the late 70s. There are about 40 million more men than women. And so most North Korean people who, escaped were women. About 70% of them were women. The men are more closely watched. They're in the military, so it was easier for the women to leave. And so you could imagine what happened to these women. There were most of them, 80% of these women were trafficked. And so this woman who watched

her family died was immediately after she crossed the border taken for sale. She was older. And so it was difficult for them to find someone who wanted to purchase her as a bride. So she was sold to a pig farm. And, yeah, she was treated as a slave there. Yeah. What she, is there an, is that where the story is currently? Or how does this story end with her? So, yeah.

So she, she worked for a year. in the pig farm. Her job was to carry water from a nearby stream, I believe, up a hill to the pigs. And she literally broke her back. When I met her, several years after this, she was hunchback. She walked in a permanent bow. So she said to her owners, to a lack of a better term, I'm no good to you now. I can't do the work that you purchased me for.

You have to let me go. And instead of just letting her go, they sold her again. She was then sold to a older Chinese man. who wanted companionship in his old age. She was in her 40s at the time. So that's fortunately how we met her. And through a ministry that we supported in China, she became a Christian.

And I referred to her as Margaret in our book, in my book. But yeah, she was one of the most delightful people that I've ever met. She always wore a smile on her face. She made it her life's mission to just call the other refugees in our network to encourage them. They had very difficult lives.

Most of them were in these bondage type of situations. And she just called them all the time, and she tried to intervene and resolve disputes between the different refugees. and unfortunately she contracted cancer and she passed away. And, you know, she was completely unrecognized by the government in the land that she was living, unfortunately. But she had all the joy in the world, an enviable amount of joy by someone like me who has everything compared to her. Golly. You probably have a lot more stories like that. I'm sure. And maybe we'll get to some more.

So what, so yeah, with crossing borders, so do you try to like meet the refugees before they get kind of snatched up by somebody on the Chinese side? Is that the goal? No. Our goal is just to share the gospel with them. Okay. And, you know, it is very dangerous to try to get to these women before the traffickers do. Okay. There's so much profit on the line for them. So we sort of found little pockets where they were sold in China. Now, you know, these women, they aren't sold to the rich people.

they're actually sold to the poorest of the poor. As you can imagine, if there is a finite number of women in a country, the rich will have no problem getting what's theirs, and then it's unfortunately like economics, and it's the poorest of the poor. And so I've visited many, many of their homes, and, you know, none of them, hardly any of them had running water, indoor plumbing, or any amenities that we could speak to here in America.

So, yeah, they are sold to the poorest of the poor. Yeah, and so our ministry has been to minister to them after the point of sale. as they are in these marriages. And we simply ask how we could help. And how, especially how communities of them could help each other. Yeah. So they're sold into marriage. They're not like in some sort of sex slave prostitution situation?

Or is it both? Most of them are sold into forced marriages. there is a certain percentage of them who are sold also into prostitution. Okay. You know, online prostitution as well. Okay. Yeah. And what about the male refugees?

Are they also sold into some kind of slavery or are they treated differently? Many of them have been abused, but they are less valuable to Chinese society. you know, as the economy has been booming in China, there's plenty of work for the men in China. And so the economy in China has less use for these men. And they usually have an easier time escaping China as a result. Are you, would you be able to, I just want to use the right term here, like, yeah, meet the refugees. before they are sold into slavery? I mean, is that even possible for your ministry?

Or is it not? I just can't envision kind of the situation. Yeah. So Mike, Mike, the guy, our founder, he and a couple other guys went on just an exploratory mission to see how these women get caught. And so he walked along the borders supposedly on these trails where these women from the China and North Korea border get caught. And there are these trails that are pretty easy to walk.

They are well tread. And they pass these houses where there are high fences, but dogs barking whenever anyone comes by. And so as they were walking these trails, dogs started barking and men on motorcycles started circled. them. Oh. So that was never our aim to do that because of the challenges involved. It sounds like the second they crossed the border you're saying like dogs are barking, like they get snatched up really quickly. Well, even before they cross the border, most people are, they need help to cross from North Korea because there are guards all over the place now. For a long time, they were easily bribeable, these guards. But who had the money

to do that when you're coming from a famine unless there was money coming in from the outside? So Margaret, the woman that I mentioned, she met a little boy who gave her a bowl of noodles and said, hey, my uncle across the border could help you find work. And that's how she was God. So people need help crossing from North Korea and most people who do were already in the hands of track of prison. They didn't know it. Oh, okay. Okay. So it would be incredibly difficult, if not it possible for your or to like meet them before they already have some contact in China. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. What's the, what can you tell us about the Christian population both in North Korea and then I guess also among the refugees that are coming out.

Yeah. In North Korea, you know, in 1907, Pyongyang, the capital city of North Korea was the site of a very large revival where many, many Christians or people became Christian. after that, you know, they say that it was difficult to find anyone on the streets on the Sunday because everyone was at church. Billy Graham's wife, Ruth Bell Graham, went to Christian boarding school in Pyongyang. Really? Yeah. Oh, my God.

So they called it the Jerusalem of the East. And so North Korea has a very deep Christian. roots. And as we know, it is very difficult to eradicate this pesky church that we're involved with. And so we don't know how many, how large this church is. Open doors. The organization, the European-based organization estimates that the church is about 200,000 strong. A Voice of the Martyr says that there is currently a revival in North Korea. It's very hard to say, but they say that they have people coming in and out of the entry who can verify this, that the church is exploding in North Korea.

So is it illegal, though? Like, it's all completely underground, hush, hush. Okay, yeah. It is one of the most. capital of capital offenses. You will be immediately sent to one of their highest level prisons if you were found out. And so one story we have recently was a woman. We have in South Korea, we started working with refugees in South Korea in 2020. We had the safe house for women who aren't doing well and need assistance in South Korea as well.

And every Sunday we have a small worship service for the residents at we call it Elm House. And we were singing this song. She hadn't been to church ever. And we started singing this song. Fill my cup, the old hymn, fill my cup, Lord, tell my cup. She's like, my grandpa used to sing me this song. Wow. And he used to get drunk and sing this song to me.

And so it's very mysterious. We don't know whether he used to be a Christian and, you know, learned the song before. But we actually looked into it. And the song was written after North Korea became totalitarian, I believe, in the 60s. And so somehow that song snuck in. and that woman, when she was a child, heard it, and she didn't hear it again until she got out in South Korea. So we've heard whispers of a church in North Korea,

but out of the hundreds and hundreds of women that we've helped over the years, I have not heard, we've only heard of one woman who was actually Christian in North Korea, and she was not part of the underground. church in North Korea. She was, there was a traitor. We used to come in and out of North Korea who introduced her and her father to the gospel. And they were just a single unit two-person church after that. So they weren't connected to the church. Yeah. So we've heard whispers of it. Outside of North Korea, in China, there are many, many missionaries, or there have been many, many missionaries now, the missionaries crossing borders.

There are no missionaries in China, but for a long time, there were many Christian missionaries in China. And, you know, we don't, we don't know how genuine these people were or are. There's much speculation that, you know, these are quote-unquote rice Christians,

because we know from the refugees who make it to South Korea, about 34,000 at this point, have made it to South Korea that they, you know, when they first come in, they list their religion and, you know, a certain percentage, I believe, 20 to 30 percent, say that they're Christian. But if you track them after they get into South Korean life,

very, very, a very small percentage remain Christian. Is that, you, You said rice Christian? What is that? Yeah, it's a term that that I've heard in books, Rice Christian, meaning, you know, they're willing to tell you whatever you want to hear in order to get aid. So because South Korea is so Christianized that it's easier to come in if you say you're Christian? No, there's just so many missionaries in China who are willing to help.

that at that point of desperation where these people are at risk for their lives, perhaps some of them were not as genuine as some of the missionaries reported them to be. Okay. So is that the goal then to get them out of China and into either South Korea or somewhere that's where they can have a better way of life? That's not our goal. You know, it's very risky for North Koreans to escape China. There is this network of for-profit people.

They're called, they refer to them as brokers. These brokers operate what's referred to as the modern-day Underground Railroad in reference to the Underground Railroad that was happening around the time of the Civil War here in America. And these men and women escort people through China. But, you know, North Koreans don't have ID. There's cameras everywhere in China.

You know, in my many trips to China, I had to show my ID everywhere. And if you're riding in a car on the highway, there's very obtrusive flash bulbs going off everywhere as you dry fast on these roads. And today, those cameras are backed by artificial intelligence, so now it's very easy for them to be tracked. So our goal is just to listen to them to see what they want to do. A lot of them have children with their quote-unquote husbands in China. And they know that if they're caught trying to escape China to South Korea,

their North Korea's sworn enemy, often being helped by Americans, another one of North Korea's sworn enemies, that it's pretty much a death sentence that they get caught and sent back. to North Korea. Okay. So the risks are extremely high for those who want to escape China. So our goal is very, we tell them the risks and the rewards. You know, life is not all rosy in South Korea for them as well.

We just tell them, here are the options, here are the risks, here are the potential benefits. This is your decision. We would never force that on anyone. I'm curious about the quality of life that refugees have when they're, let's say, sold into a marriage. It's complicated. Life is complicated. There's one thing I've learned. Yeah, some of these women do have a wonderful relationship with their husband. Husbands. So it just depends. You know, it's very complicated. there are women who told me that, you know, the family who purchased them as a forced bride, there's one woman who said that they always made her work in the field, always.

And if she had to go to the bathroom, someone from the family would follow her to the bathroom so that when she came out, she was immediately then escorted to the back to the field. there are those relationships, but there are others who are very, very loving. And I would say they're relatively healthy marriages. And that, I guess, is possible in this circumstance. There are others whose husbands became Christian through our ministry and have repented in their abusive ways. And so we would never, we would never force anyone to do any of these risky things. It would be, it has to be up to that.

It is not our choice to make. It has to be theirs. And so, yeah, there are all number of different shades of gray here. and, yeah. How do you connect with the women, the female refugees in order to share the gospel with them? I'm just, again, I'm trying to picture, like, if I had a video camera, like, what would I be watching? Are you going, finding out where they live and going to the house and knocking on the door, kind of like a Joe's witness evangelist or something?

Or is there a hangout spot you meet up, or how do you actually get in touch with them? Yeah. So one very common experience among North Koreans in China is that they're very isolated. There's just a lot of fear. You know, if the Chinese government, you know, at times the Chinese government has these seasons where they're rounding up refugees. And so they'll literally announce on the radio, hey, if you know where our North Korean refugee is, we have X amount of money for you as your reward. and what do you do, right? And so they want to fly as under the radar as possible.

And so they're usually just with their families, families who purchase them. And so there is immense amount of isolation amongst these women. And so it's very easy to get them. to come out when there are other North Korean women who say, hey, a group of us are gathering for worship, would you be interested in joining? And these very community-starved people will oftentimes at least give it a try. And then on the other side, on the more spiritual side, is you just came out in North Korea where you realize now that you're out that you've been lied to your whole life. Your whole life is a lie. These men are supposed to be gods, right?

The leaders of North Korea are touted as gods or godlike figures. So there are people. And so imagine the spiritual emptiness that one must feel when you realize that your whole life was based on a lie. Literally, your whole life was based on a lie and we could prove it definitively. And so there is a, you know, you would think someone in that situation would say, well, to heck with any sort of organized religion or whatever. No one's going to tell me what to think or believe anymore, but it's the opposite. There is this void that I've seen that we've witnessed in these people's hearts because of the lie and they want to fill it.

Wow. Yeah. And is there a risk? Like if you meet a Korean refugee and say, hey, we have this gathering. Would you want to come? Like for them to go to that gathering, would that, does that typically go over fine with, like, her husband? Or is there, are you like, how do you navigate the potential, I guess, harm you can put her in

with her husband by introducing her to Christianity? Yeah, we've run into that quite a bit. We leave it up to them to navigate that. I mean, you know, if they need help in whatever, all they have to do is ask. But as far as navigating the actual relationship, we could only suggest what to do, but every relationship is different. And so, yeah, so we let them decide when it's safe for them to do this. Yeah. Do you have a general percentage that you've seen come to Christ of the ones that you've communicated with?

We don't. We try not to do that. You're not a Baptist, are you? A Baptist would have a specific number. I'm not a Baptist. I didn't know that about. I mean, like 5%, 50%, and. anything? I mean, is it extremely rare or relatively common?

I would say most have come to Christ. Oh, wow. But again, how do we know for sure? Right. Right. And we try not to keep track because there are temptations then there to report numbers and to change our tactics. We take a very long-term approach. We don't. Okay. We don't. We don't. We don't push anything on people. We're very transparent about why we're motivated to do what we do. And that seems to be enough for them to be at least curious on why in the world someone like you help someone like me. But no, we don't, we don't keep numbers like that. Okay. Okay. What's the, what are some of the greatest challenges in the work you do? We probably already mentioned some of them,

but what are the things that are like, man, this is just really difficult? Well, there's the security. You know, I have been surrounded by Chinese border police wielding guns, large guns. So that is always, always a threat, the security aspects for our staff. Yeah. So I'm trying to think of what I could share here. And do you have rights? Like, could they have shot you there and there would be

minimal repercussions? I mean, no. I mean, okay. So for me as a U.S. passport holder, they don't want to start an incident with the United States, right? even though we're in sort of like a cold war with them. Yeah. They don't want some dude like me to kick some sort of international incident. So the worst that could happen to me, honestly, is a couple weeks in their prison system. I'm sure I would not have been treated well there, but, you know, my rights would have had to have been somewhat acknowledged. So anyone going with the U.S. passport for us has, you know, just by nature of who we are as American,

for a long time, it carried a lot of weight in China. Now it's a detriment. And so that's why we don't send people from the outside anymore into China. So, yeah, there's risks. And then North Korea also has spies in China who worked. to assassinate missionaries. And so there's that as well. Wow.

You have to be. Have you encountered them or how do you, how do you avoid that? I have fortunately not. I mean, the most I've done is a couple weeks in country and then I'm out of there. Yeah. So no, I have not encountered that.

Praise the Lord. But that is always a threat. And who knows, maybe someone that we're helping could be posing as a refugee in order to either report or harm the people in our care. So there are those risks. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, frankly speaking, the most difficult thing about this ministry, you know, once you get over those difficulties, those challenges. is the level of trauma that these women have experienced is immense. Yeah.

You know, hurt people, hurt people, right? So you have the famine in North Korea, you have human trafficking in China, you have a very traumatic underground railroad experience where you have to get to Thailand and from China. Thailand and China are not bordering each other. So you have to literally run an ultra-marathon through muddy mountain trails, drug trails, basically, through Laos and Vietnam. And then you're finally free. And so imagine being plopped then in South Korea, a very modern country. And South Korea has done immensely well to help these people.

There are so many resources available for people who have escaped, but there is so much trauma that catches up to them. These women, when they get to South Korea, they want to hit the ground running and work and make a lot of money in order to send back to North Korea, let's say, or get their family out of North Korea, and they just cannot function. One woman that I interviewed said that,

she could not sleep at night. She woke up screaming every night. She was also sold in China, and in China, a month after she had her first child, she was arrested and sent back to North Korea to a prison camp where she was tortured. And she told me the story, you know, North Koreans in these prison camps, it's a work, it's a labor camp. And so you have to do all these, like, manual labor type of things, cut down trees, move rocks, very backbreaking work. You get 24 kernels of corn a day to eat in these prison camps. And this woman said that the worst part about her experience was that a month after she had her baby, she was still bleeding.

and the guards did a cavity surge on her every day for money because some people smuggle money in through their cavity. And, you know, outside of all the torture and all that, that was the most salient thing about her experience. And so after she got out of prison, she immediately went back to her family, completely traumatized. She had another child with this husband, and this child came out a crier, just uncontrollably crying all the time.

And this caused conflict with her husband and her husband's family. And that's when they told her to get out of China, we'll help you leave China. And, you know, she made it out of China to South Korea. and she said that the very little that she could sleep, she could only sleep with her shoes next to her. Because that's how, after she got released from prison camp, when she was back in China, she always had to be ready, right?

She always had to be ready for the cops, whoever to come in, so that she could quickly escape. Well, in South Korea, there was no one out to get her, and yet this is like the definition of trial, right there are these adaptations that you make for survival in a certain very dangerous situation and yet you have to do these things even when it doesn't make sense and so she was just caught in the spiral of suffering even though she's free even though she was relatively well taken care of in a very modern society

she just could not get it together she can't hold she couldn't hold a job when I spoke with her so dealing with the trauma of these people is, I think, even more difficult than the actual inherent security risks. Do you, are you, is your organization, like, trained to do that? Or do you have other, do you work with other people to deal with traumatized people if they're wanting to have, you know, find help? Because, yeah, I agree. That, that's a, I mean, the more I learn about that. trauma that multifaceted and deep, that takes serious. Yeah. Serious work.

Yeah. We work with an organization here in the U.S. called Connection Point Counseling, Biblical Counseling, a Christian organization. And they have trained our staff on the ground how to identify signs of trauma and what to do. and they also counsel our workers on the ground for, you know, there are secondary effects of trauma that happen to people in this space all the time. Okay. So, yeah, they've been a very strong partner for us.

We do not do any therapy as an organization. We leave that to train people. And we are, especially in South Korea, we are always looking for opportunity. it used to get them some help. Yeah, yeah. Before I let you go, tell us about your book, A Hard Freedom, the Dream and Trauma of North Korean refugees. What led you to want to write this book?

And what's it all about? Yeah. So in 2020, Crossing Borders started work in South Korea. And we realized pretty soon thereafter that they're. There were much deeper issues with the refugees that we were helping in South Korea. We expected naively something different. We did not expect the level of mental health issues that we were seeing. And so it's sort of a deep dive into why they are traumatized.

the traumatic journey that they have made from North Korea, exactly how they get traumatized in North Korea in China on the Underground Railroad, in the prison camps, and how we as a society have expected them to be okay because they have freedom. Right. Right. Somehow freedom is supposed to cure everything, and yet there is a long road to healing for all of them.

after they escape. And so it's sort of foray into that journey. Okay. Yeah. I imagine you tell a lot of stories in it with people you've worked with. Yes. It is chock full of stories. Some of them I shared today. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Dan, thanks so much for telling us about you, the work you're doing. I mean, gosh, I just thank you so much for your radical faithfulness. I mean, there's not a lot of people who would be willing to do the kind of work you do. And yet, what an important work it is. So, yeah, thanks for being on the podcast for telling us about crossing borders

and your book A Hard Freedom. So where can people check you out? Do you have a website or social media? Crossing borders. We have a website and social media. You could just type in Crossing Borders, North Korea, and you could find our website and socials there. but yeah, check us out.

Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much, Dan. Appreciate it. Thank you.