Theology in the Raw - Reimagining Youth Minstry: Pete Sutton

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Pete currently serves as the Pastor of Student Ministry at Compass Church in Naperville, IL and has been in youth ministry for nearly 3 decades. Pete has taught in the Christian Ministries track at North Park University, written nationally published curriculum, and spoken at various camps and conferences. He did his undergrad at Cedarville University and his MA at Wheaton. Register for the “Exiles in Babylon” conference: theologyintheraw.com Join the Theology in the Raw Patreon community! Patreon.com/theologyintheraw -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The exiles and Babylon conferences happening again, April 3rd to April 5th, 2025 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I cannot wait for this conference. We're talking about the gospel and race after George Floyd. We're talking about transgender people in the church, social justice and the gospel, two perspectives, and a dialogical debate about whether the evangelical church is good for this country. Featuring my new friend, Adam Davidson. He's an atheist journalist and Sean McDowell, my other good friend, they're going to banter around about that topic. We also have Latasha Morrison, Ephraim Smith, Mark Yarhouse, Malcolm Foley, and many other awesome speakers. We're also adding some breakouts

this year, and we're going to have a killer after party. I can't wait for that one. Actually, if you want to attend a conference, you can do so by going to theology, raw.com. You want to register early. We do have an early birth, a fairly aggressive early bird special. It ends December 31st. So if you are planning on attending the conference, you want to sign up before then you could also attend virtually. If you can't make it out to Minneapolis again, April 3rd to 5th, Minneapolis, Minnesota, exiles of Babylon, go to theology and the rod.com. And I hope to see you there. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in a raw, the exiles in Babylon conference. 2025 is happening folks. We're doing this again, April 3rd to 5th. This year, it's going to be in Minneapolis, Minnesota. This is going to be a, a full jam packed three-day

event. We're talking about gospel and race after George Floyd, transgender people in the church, social justice and the gospel, two different perspectives and a dialogical debate about the question is the evangelical church good for this country? We also have breakouts, a killer after party. We're planning so many things that we're going to do at this conference. We're not going to want to miss it. Go to theologyintherod.com to register soon, take advantage of the early bird special, and you can find out more about speakers and so on. My guest today is Pete Sutton, who lives with his wife, Jocelyn, and their gazillion kids,

actually seven kids and other foster kids that they've had over the years. They live in St. Charles, Illinois. Pete currently serves as a pastor of student ministry at compass church in Naperville, Illinois. He's been in youth ministry for over three decades. Okay. This dude has a lot of youth ministry experience. He's taught in the Christian ministry's track at North Park university, written and published curricula, spoken at various camps and conferences. He has an MA from Wheaton College. And I just met Pete recently and he's a friend of a friend. And he, our mutual friend said, dude, this dude gets youth ministry. And I said, well, I want to talk about that on the podcast. Cause I think youth ministry is incredibly

important and also incredibly challenging. I think you'll find this conversation extremely helpful and challenging, especially if you are in any way involved in youth ministry. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only pastor Pete Sutton. All right. Hey Pete, welcome to theology and raw. I'm excited about this conversation. Thanks, Preston. Looking forward to it. So for my audience, we have a really good mutual friend. I mean, you guys go way back. You and Joel go back as far as 30 years, 30 years. I've known Joel for maybe 20 and he, we were hanging out in Chicago and he was like, dude, my buddy Pete crushes it in youth ministry. You should have on the podcast. And I know Joel Joel and Carla are pretty, pretty picky about praising a

pastor or a church or a ministry or whatever. So I was like, Oh really? Okay. Well that's, that's high praise. I know that wouldn't just say that. So anyway, I would love for you to tell us all about youth ministry, what you've learned, do's and don'ts, some stuff you've done. Well, things you will look back and like, yeah, I wouldn't do that again. Just kind of an A to Z one-on-one youth ministry lessons. So why don't we start with how you got into youth ministry and then we'll go from there. Yeah. Well, Hey, thanks for having me on. I think when I was younger, I had my mind set on doing other things

and other people kept saying to me, hey, you'd be a great youth pastor, you'd be a great youth pastor. When it came right down to picking a college and figuring out what to do, I really didn't have a whole lot of other options. I wasn't good at a whole lot of other things. And so I decided to go into youth ministry

because friends told me, some people have like this divine calling. I just had a bunch of people that said, Hey, you should, you should do this. Um, so that's what got me into it. And I can't believe I'm still doing it. And almost 50 years old, um, I laugh about that, that anybody wants me at this point and that I still love it and enjoy it and I have the energy for it. So it must be a calling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're almost 50. Do you ever have people kind of, and maybe they'll say this, these exact words, but like, when are you going to, you know, graduate and become like a real pastor, you know, like all the time, all the time, Hey, you're so talented. What are you doing in youth ministry? You know, and I always, you know,

my honest answer is I think I'm in the most influential job in the church. 100%, 100%. I have the opportunity to shape the future of not our church alone, but the broader church. The things that we're wrestling with in student ministry, the things that students are thinking through, these are the cutting edge issues of today. They're still making decisions about these things. Their parents, they're locked in, they have their ideas, but these kids, this is where faith and life meet in a real way. And I think I've got the most influential, important job in the entire church. And so I tell people that all the time. What a privilege that I have to shape young lives for the past three decades. It's just been exciting.

I've often said, have you heard me say, because I know you listen to the podcast, I haven't said this in a while, but I'm like, I think youth leaders, youth pastors should be the highest paid people in the church. You know what I think I've quoted you on that? I bet you have. No, because- This guy knows what you're talking about.

I mean, can you imagine a youth leader that is well-ed in, in psychology, relationships, counseling, they're theologically astute. They it's like, well, wait a minute. I could never afford a person that's like that, you know, it was like that good. I'm like, well, maybe we should up the, up the salary a little bit. Okay. Describe to us your current youth ministry. Let's start there. And cause I know you said you do things a little differently, a little bit outside the box. So what does that look like?

Well, I don't know if it's outside the box, but I think I do think differently. You know, I think there was a part in my youth ministry early on. I was at a good size Methodist church down in South Florida, had an amazing experience there. Great people learned a lot, but I wasn't a great youth pastor. I was pretty self-absorbed. I was actually pretty interested in building my own kingdom and being something impressive and it didn't turn out so well. Learned a lot through that. In fact, I at one point had my pastor pay me kind of a backhanded compliment, told me that he never met anybody that knew his Bible as well as me, but he never knew anyone that failed to live it out like I did.

And it was just a shot to the teeth and I got mad at him and proved him right. I kind of pitched a little fit. But the more I reflected on that, the more I realized he was right. You know, I went on to another church after that in Cincinnati, fantastic place, startup church, non-denominational, kind of vowed not to be that guy, want to be the person that actually lived out my faith and didn't just teach it and wag a finger at other people. I don't think I quite learned the lesson. I'm a slow learner.

But the older I got in youth ministry, the more I realized I couldn't be the cool, hip, pied piper kind of win them over. And at some point when I started having kids of my own and a family, I realized that what these kids really need is not a buddy or a super cool youth pastor. They need a mentor. They need more of a father figure. And now I'm a grandfather. And so my kids in my youth group tease me about that.

But there's a part of me that takes a lot of joy in knowing that that's kind of the role I play. Like the Apostle Paul, you know, took very, you know, very seriously his role as father in the life of Timothy and others. And so I do. So my youth ministry looks more familial. It looks more, you know, to quote Chap Clark, adoptive. What I'm trying to build is a ministry where students are a part of the church and not

apart from the church. So many youth ministries build something that is amazing and exciting and flashy, and it's oftentimes in an annex building or somewhere else in the basement. There's not a lot of interaction between the church and the youth ministry. And kids can leave, you know, seven years of youth ministry and not interact with the church very much at all. They don't attend on Sunday morning. They don't worship with the community.

They don't attend intergenerational things. And then we wonder why they don't stick with the church. And it's because the church doesn't look anything like youth group. Youth group's been, you know, fun and exciting and flashy, and there's trips and events, and you graduate and it's like, come sit in a sterile small group, maybe. And I think kids, I mean, most young people, just there's a dissonance there,

and they'd be able to make the jump if there was a relationship. But because there's not often a relationship, there's nothing pulling them. I mean, I don't know how many times I've had a kid, I'll try to get them to come to camp or come to youth group, and they're like, well, I don't know how many times I've had a kid, I'll try to get them to come to camp or come to youth group and they're like, well, I don't know anybody.

It's like, well, if you just show up, you'll see a dozen friends from your school, give it a shot. Well, I don't know anybody. And if they'll do that to youth group, how much more so will they do that with the church? And so our youth ministry is really aimed at building intergenerational relationships

both within and beyond student ministry. So, we're trying to integrate students into the church. We're trying to integrate our adults into student ministry and create a real family feel. So, you know, I don't oftentimes call my kids students. I call them kids. And most youth ministry people would be like, man, you're insulting them. And my response is always, no, I'm not, because I see them as my children. You know, these are my kids, it's a familial style. It's not demeaning, it's more of an endearing. It is.

Well, and it's an acknowledgement of what the scriptures tell us, that as adopted children of God, we're brothers and sisters in Christ. And these are my little brothers and sisters. And so I'll use those terms all day long because I want to ingrain in them, this is an adoptive family.

Every other imagery that we get of the church in the New Testament is an analogy. We're not a real building. We're not a real body. But we really are the family of God. We've all been adopted, and we're legitimately eternal children of God, brothers and sisters in Christ. It's the only tangible imagery that we get in the New Testament of what the church really is. And I'm going to live into that as often as I can so that they understand what they're being part of. And so our student ministry is really oriented towards that and helping young people kind of integrate. So, how do you, okay, so how do you do that? How do you get... I'm still trying to figure that out.

Well, let me, you said it sounds like the bells and whistles, the attraction that a lot of youth groups have, you just decided that it sounds like you're not going to be doing that? I think fun is an important part of youth ministry. And we have a lot of fun, but yeah, it's not. It's not a show and I don't do the bait and switch, you know, type of a thing. I want our students to come knowing that when they come, they're coming for God. And I think if I read the studies and the statistics right, I think most young people come to church looking for that. I think what draws them is relationships with their peers,

but I don't think they're drawn to fun. I mean, they've got enough fun in their pocket that I can't compete with YouTube and TikTok. And in the neighborhood that I'm in, I mean, we're in a fairly affluent area in the Chicago suburbs. I can't compete with what's out there. I can't compete with what their parents put in their basement. So I just, I've decided a long time ago, I'm not going to compete with that. I'm going to give them something that the world can't give and that's relationships. I'm going to give them deep, meaningful, intergenerational relationships with people who really genuinely care,

understand them and are there for them. And so for us, our volunteers are consistent. Every week volunteers are leading the same small group. They're doing contact work. It's a big part of young life, right? And we adopted that a long time ago, encouraging our leaders to talk to those kids and reach out to their parents, build relationships.

We've got a number of volunteers that are in their 60s and seventies and we've, Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And they're the best and they're my best volunteers. They've got time. They understand the weight of the assignment. They're consistent. Um, they're willing to learn. They're humble. They know what they don't know. They don't try to be cool. They're genuine. They're authentic. They make great decisions. And do the kids, are the kids drawn to the 60, 70 year olds? Some of them really are. Yeah, what's funny about it actually is the kids are actually better behaved for them

because they kind of, it's built in pity. Kids are like, well, they're old. So I can't act up when Paul's around or whatever. But they're great. And that's what I want our students to get to know, is these are the people that have been walking with Jesus for a lifetime. Paul's a Vietnam vet.

And he comes every once in a while, someone will say, oh, tell me about Vietnam. And he'll come with his pictures, and he'll talk to them about how he nearly died, and he'll share a story openly, authentically. And kids just, they're curious. They've never heard those stories. And then when Paul talks about his faith and where that came from and how it carried him through war and he's been single his whole life, he's been through some tough stuff and our kids just love him. I

just can't generate in the position I'm in. I need a Paul. How do you, here's a question. Volunteers, it seems like it's hard enough just to get people to volunteer that in my anecdotal kind of observation, it seems like the bar is set so low. Like, Hey, are you willing to show up, take time, be part of this? If you are, then you're in. But then I also see like sometimes the quality of the volunteers is so it's not like they're not engaging kids. They're I'm out here. My kids are, my kids have been in and out of so many different youth groups and events and everything.

And for the most part, the way they describe the volunteers is they're like, they're not like engaging anybody. They're not like, they don't even know my net. What my daughter wants is she was in a youth group for like a couple of years. And one of the volunteers didn't even know her name after two years. Wow. There's 30 people in the youth group. You know, it's like, we've got people in the, in the, there is one time, but my daughter took one of the volunteers, asked her to go to coffee. And then the whole time it was like her asking all the, my daughter asked all the questions, whatever. And it was like, like, I felt like

I was the one doing all the counseling with her. It was just, it was just, I mean, I bless her. You know, I don't know. Maybe I have no clue who this person is, whatever. But anyway, my question is like, yeah, how, how do you, how do you get volunteers to either their free time to show up and be really good volunteers? Like actually engaging the kids and meaningful conversations. And that's, that's one of the to either their free time to show up and be really good volunteers. I can actually engage in the kids and meaningful conversations. And that's, that's one of the hardest parts about doing youth ministry. You're absolutely right. And I think a lot of, a lot of people don't understand youth mission. They're intimidated by it. I mean, most people are intimidated

by junior high and high school. They're overwhelmed by the energy in a junior higher, right? And the cynicism of a high schooler, they're just like, I don't know if I could do this. And when you ask them to do something spiritual, most of the people will say, well, I don't know my Bible that well. Or, you know, I don't know how to talk to young people. And most adults don't. Right. Yeah. Right? If I add, and we do this in our training, you know, think about what you were like when you were in whatever grade they're working with. And what would you want to say to you? What would you want to ask

you back then? And it helps them get into that mindset. But most people are like, I don't even want to think about what I was like in junior high. So for us, you know, I tell you what's easier is when you're a parent. You know, I've been doing youth ministry long enough that when I was younger, most of my volunteers were my peers. You know, I recruited the 20 somethings that were in my church. It was easy because it was South Florida. There's a lot of young people down there. The older I got, the more, uh, the easier it was to recruit my peers, which happens

to be the students' parents. So our student ministry is a really good cross-section of 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. I mean, it's a pretty well-balanced ministry. And it's because I'm old enough that I can identify with the grandparents. I can identify with the parents. Some of the kids in my youth group are now in college and they're college age and they're sticking around to volunteer. So longevity has a lot to do with it. But for the most part, I think you just got to teach not volunteers how to do a task,

that's important, but you really have to give them a vision for why this matters. And so what we talk about constantly is building these intergenerational relationships. We're building a community of faith, a family. And so when they show up, we've got people that are just checking kids in on the iPads and others that are working Snack Shack and selling candy and silly stuff. But every one of them understands that they're in a relationship role where they're building relationships with students, that they're noticing things. We teach all of our volunteers to do something called 321.

And every week, actually, whenever they're on campus, they're required to do this. Connect with three kids. So ideally, three kids you don't know. So even if they're at church on a Sunday morning, look around the room, do you see somebody who happens to be in junior or higher high school? So learn three names, pretty easy. Have two significant conversations

that go beyond the fourth question. We talk about the fourth question as, the first three are easy, right? What's your name, where do you go to school, and what grade are you in? But you get to the fourth question and most adults go. Yeah. Well, have a nice day.

All right, well, big gulp, so. So we've trained them to have like a pocketful of fourth questions, you know. What brought you to our church? What do you like to do after school? You know, that kind of stuff. Who lives in your house? It's one of my favorites.

And hopefully one of those two conversations will lead to a place where you can say to a student, this is the one, pray with one student. We believe prayer is just super significant. Obviously it invites God to do this work, but it teaches kids how to pray. It tells them that they're important enough to pray for. It connects their need with God, and when that need is met, it connects them to God. It does amazing things. And for the volunteer to know that they've just

done something eternal in the life of a student is pretty fantastic. And so we give them this tool. So it's not hard to actually find a kid and connect with them and ask that fourth question and start a conversation. It's not as hard as what they'd imagined. Most students are just waiting for somebody to actually care enough to kind of break that barrier.

But once they do and they understand the task of building intergenerational relationships, I find that our volunteers just love what they do. There's deep meaning to it. There's movement and growth. I've got a volunteer who helps us out on Sunday mornings with what we call breakfast club. And she came in, she said, I want to with breakfast club, I just wanna set up food. And I said, that's fine, you can, but every one of our volunteers is tasked with relationship building.

And she said, I don't know if I could do that. She's super timid. And just this last week, she said, I am so glad I'm part of this ministry. One student came to me, asked me if I would play a game with her this week. And she was blown away that a student would pursue her. And it's because she's week in week out, just showed up and asked those questions and pursued three, two, one. And the kids trust her. And she's shocked that, you know,

junior high and high school kids actually look for her and want to be around her. What do you do with the kid that just, okay, you do three, two, one, and they're just, you could tell they're just giving short answers. They're not inviting you into their life. You know, they're kind of looking around like, hi, I kind of want to get out of this conversation. Like, well, you've just described like most junior high boys. Yeah. Do you keep digging and pursuing and try to break down the wall or do you give them space and just kind of an in at their own timing or? Yeah. I think a lot of it's just intuition, but I tell volunteers if it's not working out, you know, g you know, give them a way out. Like don't bad, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we've got Gaga ball and nine square and all sorts of games. We got board games and we've got an art block. You know, what we try to do is, is create space for kids of different interests. So we've got an art station set up with all sorts of artistic stuff and board games. They're not all playing dodgeball and beating each other up. But there's enough side by side activities that if a kid's not interested in a face to face conversation, you can say, Hey, do you want to play some, you know, switch or do you want to go play a game pool?

And that's a lot easier for some kids. Other times you say, Hey, great talking to you. High five. Move on. You know, you just you've just satisfied one of the three, right? You had a conversation. Maybe it's a two because it's the consistency. That's, so that's what I heard. They think that kids are not going to open up to somebody that they don't know if they're going to be around next week, but when they see you there over and over and over and over, right. That,

they know that like, Oh, this person is sticking around. Is that a good assumption? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's it. I mean, that's what, you know, this type of youth ministry model is supposed to do. Cause what I want them to think of is when I come back to church, whether it's Sunday morning or in three years from now, when I'm a junior in college, I'm going to see Michelle and she's going to be there. And I know because she's always there. And that's what we're trying to build. We're trying to build something

where there's reliability in relationships. Whereas, you know, when we pick a different place to go for winter camp, kids aren't like, well, they're all so honked off that, you know. No, it's not the camp that holds a kid. It's the relationships. So we've got to volunteer, talk about Michelle. Michelle's in her 60s and she's fun, love her to death.

She was part of my prayer group. It was a Monday morning Zoom prayer that started off during COVID. And so she loves to pray. And we were praying for some students in our student ministry and I'd mentioned their stories and her heart was just breaking for this one girl. And so she said, well, you know, I'm praying for her regularly. And she kept asking. I said, well, if you want to, you can mentor her. She said, I don't know if I could ever do that. I said, no, I'm pretty sure you can, Michelle. Let me walk you through this.

So I taught her how to do this. And I said, I want you to reach out to this young girl and connect with her and see if she's interested. And I already knew that she was. I already got the story from her. And she just started connecting. And they met for a few weeks. And then this relationship kind of waned a little bit

The girl battles some depression anxiety stuff. She's been in and out of treatment. So she really needs a mentor but about a month ago This girl reached out to Michelle and said are you going to the prayer of gathering and Michelle's like well, absolutely She's like, can I sit with you? No, and Michelle's like what? Like, I'll text you all week long and you'll blow me off. You'll ghost me. You'll leave me unopened. Like, where is this coming from? And I keep saying, Michelle, just be consistent. And so week in, week out, she's just texting her,

hey, I'm praying for ya. How was your job interview? Whatever it happens to be. She'll shoot scripture to her and say, hey, this verse made me think of you, be encouraged today, you know, you are loved. And it's that, that just consistency. You know, sometimes the youth ministry gets measured

by how many butts are in the seats, but for us it's contact work. It's how many students are having real relational contacts with adults that are pursuing Jesus and helping young people learn to walk with Jesus and the church for a lifetime. So you would take that over numbers, butts in the seats any day? Yeah, yeah, the butts in the seats question is like, I have a database that tells me that information.

But we have a small group that was run in 15 girls a week last year, and they're down to two this week, or this year, two girls a week. And so I reached out to the small group leader and I said, hey, what's going on? And she said, well, and then she went down the list. This one has drama club, this one has homework, this one's parents have a small group. So she was asked to babysit for a little sibling and just right down the list, she knew where probably 10 or 11 of those students were.

And I said, well- So she's in relationship enough to where it wasn't like, yeah, I don't know where they're at. Yeah. So if somebody's measuring me by my attendance, that group looks like a failure. But if you measure it by contact work, that might be the healthiest group in the church, because every one of those kids knows when I'm not there, Cindy texts, Cindy calls, she knows where I'm at. And when life hits the fan, I can call her and talk to her about it. Like to me, that's the church. Yeah, yeah.

And if we're emphasizing and valuing students participating in the life of the church, for me, participating on Sunday morning with the church is more important than the youth group. If they're growing, they're connecting with adults, you know, they're serving within our church, youth group's a fourth priority. And not many youth pastors think that way, and I get it. But I think that's what we're supposed to be doing is helping young people fall in love with Jesus and

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So buckle up, the doctor and the nurse on the David nurse show coming at you. You mentioned something earlier and I'm going to kind of just circle back to it really quickly that I guess I'll say it positively. Let me know if this is correct that the older people like myself should not feel the need to kind of like be be cool or like try to relate on their level. Like, Hey, like pretend like we watch tick-tock or something, you know, or like the latest band or like, is that, should we take the pressure off herself from trying to like be a kid to the kids?

Yeah. I think, I think it comes across as inauthentic. Okay. If they sense that you're sure you're just trying to like enter my world, even though you're not in my world. Is that like, they sniff that out? This will date us both. But remember that line from Jerry McGuire, when a little kids like bees sense fear dogs too. I've never seen the movie. Oh, really? Okay. I've never seen the movie. Oh really? Okay. I think it's true. Kids just have this internal BS meter that knows when you're trying too hard and it's

so unattractive. Now, it's one thing to understand what's going on in their world. That's cool. To be able to talk to them about whatever show they're watching or music they're listening to, that's cool. But as soon as you start using the lingo, I think they roll watching or music they're listening to. That's cool. But as soon as you start using the lingo, I think they roll their eyes and they look at you like, come on, seriously, like, you don't have to try that hard.

Interesting. And in one sense, they're like, you're invading my space. The space has changed. When I started doing youth ministry 30 years ago, almost, it was so much easier, way easier. But because of the smartphone, because of online space, most kids, their world is digital. It's a kind of a fabricated world.

I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years ago, Chap Clark wrote a book called Hurt. He came out with a second edition of it, but he talked about how it used to be that students lived in a subculture. And today, because of what's going on online, youth culture is not a subculture any longer. It's its own isolated culture. So, we need to start thinking about youth ministry as mission work, where we're doing significant cross-cultural ministry,

and less like it's a subculture within our own context. It's a different way. Okay, so yeah, keep going on that? That's an important distinction. It's a different culture largely because of the way like they have just been raised online. And no other, no other generation has had that right. Well, right. And it's, and it's a, it's a user generated world. So they call the rules online. What happens on, on Instagram, for instance, on Snapchat, you and I don't get invited into that world. There's no way that we can break into that world. Most of these kids have two or three accounts

in different names and you might get their public. My daughter's got two Instagrams, I know them both. She's probably got three more, but I don't think I'm that cool. I didn't even know that. Is that common for them? It's very common for them to have several accounts and posting for different people. You're, you're, you're in different communities. I have my church friends. I have my family. I have my school friends and I, and there, I can't show everybody

the same things all the time. And we do, we code switch all the time, right? Like every human being code switches, but they've done it exclusively online. And you and I are not invited into most of those worlds as adults. Is it like sketchy stuff? Like all their accounts that we don't know about or not necessarily? Not always. No, sometimes it's just, they want their privacy, you know, other ties is it's Lord of the rings or Lord of the flies. I'm sorry. Right? Like it's just no adults and just chaos. It's such a good book. But yeah, it is.

But that's the reality that they've grown up in, which means that adults don't have the ability to penetrate those environments. So when you and I were younger, there was only a couple of places you needed to go to penetrate a student environment, you know, hang out at the mall, maybe the movie theater. If you were a jock, go to practice after school. You were in their world. When I, you know, 20 years ago, I was coaching high school soccer and absolutely loving it and I was in their world. I was their coach. As soon as smartphones pop up and social

media, they move online. it is a completely different environment altogether and adults are not allowed in, which means that what I do in student ministry, what we do in student ministry needs to be, well, it's cross-culture completely. I gotta find a way to translate me and the gospel into this when I'm not welcome into that tribe. Hmm.

And that's hard. Gosh. Yeah. That's, oh man. I mean, the fact that this generation, yeah, was raised with a smartphone in their pocket, like that, it's like, I mean, we've not experienced this before. And this is something a lot of sociologists talk about. Like we don't know what the long-term effects are of people. Their primary identity is an online identity rather than, you know, even millennials and Gen Xers for sure. We had an embodied world that we brought the internet into. So it's a part of it, but it's not, it's not the foundation. Whereas with Gen Z it is, it is, that is the starting point, right?

Yeah. You and I, when we get a device, we'll, we'll still look for a button, right? Right. My, my kids, they'll, they'll start swiping the screen and you know, it's a completely different, they're digital natives. We're not. Yeah. Yeah. And that is created, that is created a different culture, not just a subculture. Well, have you read a Jonathan hates book, the anxiousxious Generation yet? Gosh, yeah, it's like basically my Bible. I mean, I told my kids, I told my kids, you can't have kids until you read this book, so.

Right, well, it has prompted us to actually, we don't actually allow smartphones or phones at all in our youth ministry. Good, I was gonna ask you about that, yeah. How does that, yeah, is that go over well, or it hard at the beginning? And now they just accept it. They probably actually love it. They know they're enslaved to it and they know what freedom feels like. Right? Well, we don't allow them to take them to summer camp. We haven't done that in a long time. They've, they just don't come to summer camp and most

of the kids kind of give us a grief about it. But after camp, they say, that was awesome. Best week of my life. I, you know, I don't want to pick up my phone quite yet. And there's always kids that smuggle their phone in and they're a hassle. But for the most part, they really appreciate the value of that. Would you, if you're giving advice to other youth leaders, would you, would you say that you should like, everybody should do that? Or is that just the secondary issue that you chose to do, but isn't that vital or do you see it as a pretty vital piece? That's a great question. I would, I wouldn't probably go to the extreme of saying, you know, it's absolutely vital because I think every youth ministry is a bit different. There were seasons where the majority of our kids

were on the Bible app and we were reading Bible app reading plans together. But I've gotten to the point with junior high where I realized that the risks outweigh the rewards of that. When I read Haight's book and I look at the statistics about what screen time and all that stuff does to young people, the rate of depression and anxiety that's gone up, the lack of risk taking and that kind of anxiety that exists. And there's just, I don't want to be part of that. And here's the probably the biggest part of it. I don't want, parents are in a fight, and I know you get this, with their kids. Kids are like, I want a smartphone.

And parents are like, you need to wait. And they're in this constant battle. And I don't wanna give some kid ammunition against mom or dad to say, well, Pastor Pete wants us on a smartphone. He wants us reading the Bible app. I need it so I can read my Bible at Youth Group and I can participate. And I never, I don't want to do that to a parent.

You know, I know that I'm a parent. I have a lot of sympathy for them. And so I don't ever want to give a parent a harder time parenting because of the choices that I make with how our youth group is assembled. So that's why we don't have, I mean, I've told parents, I promise you, I will never ask your junior higher to have a smartphone. I will not use social media with your junior high ministry. I'll send you emails, but we are a completely, you know,

archaic junior high ministry. Our high school kids, we allow them to bring phones, but we have those phone holders at the door and they drop their phones in the phone holders like they have at school. And a lot of schools, I think most of the schools in our area have those, because they recognize how distracting the phone is. So the kids that have come, it's not weird for them.

At first they didn't like it, but they did it. But I'll tell you what, it has made a world of difference in our worship environment. Because when we ask kids to focus on Christ, they can actually do that. So we take time, we read scripture, and then we take a minute to reflect on what's been read. At the end of every message, we play a worship response, and we ask kids to actually reflect on that and listen for the Holy Spirit.

And when we do those things, if there's no phones, they're actually engaging in those activities. So we find the spiritual value to be way higher when they don't have these devices in their hands. So I would say to anybody thinking about it, give it a shot, but why, why, why not? Why wouldn't you? I don't think you can lose like, and you'll get all excuses and squirming into this, that, but at the end of the day, everybody knows and every statistic knows that this is healthier for them. Yeah. Right. When you're in an embodied environment, the go-to is to pull back into the online environment.

And that's just, you're not fully present and the temptation. I mean, I feel the temptation when I'm at church looking at, I always, you know, look at my Bible app and, and I'll get a text from somebody or I'll think of something like what's going on in Gaza right now. You know, I'll start looking up stuff like I, you know, so if me a 50 year old, I'm like, I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym.

I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I and pull them out of the classroom. If the schools are doing that, right. Yeah. Okay. Here's, here's my question too. And this is actually related to heights book and just statistics. So say you have 50 kids in a youth group and you're looking out, you're, there's probably several that are battling with suicidality, probably a good percentage, depression, lonely, anxiety, other mental health issues are wrestling with maybe 10 to 20% have experienced some kind of sexual abuse that they probably never talked to anybody about. So you look out the sea of these kids, a sea of kids, and there's just a lot of brokenness that is just below the surface. First of all, would you agree that that's a fairly accurate description? The second of all,

what do you do with that? I just, whenever I look at like Jen Z, I've decided, I just see a lot of, I look past the smiley faces, the goofing, the whatever I'm like, there's, cause what I've gotten to meaningful conversations with my kids and their friends and stuff. It's like, they're going through so much, so much stuff that they don't haven't talked to anybody about. So how do you, how do you, how do you disciple into that? Yeah. You know, this is a great question. I think, and it's a constant question. Cause I think as soon as you come up with an answer or a solution, you realize it's inadequate. Yeah.

In the mental health crisis in America today is just, I think it's one of the biggest, and I know it's talked about, but I don't think it's talked about enough. Right, I agree. It's a problem. And I think, you know, within the church, it's a problem because I think the church has a tendency to downplay mental health or misunderstand it. There's a problem. And I think within the church, it's a problem because I think the church has a tendency to downplay mental health or misunderstand it. There's a lot of opinions. There's still a lot of shame in that. And so for us, when we're talking on a Sunday evening in youth group, we talk about mental

health as just a normal part of life. It's a regular application point. We talk about friends who are wrestling with anxiety and depression, who are battling their sexuality or gender, a lot of the stuff that swirls around this generation. It's part of what we talk about. And the more that adults talk about it, the more free young people feel free to talk about it.

I think that's a big part of it. We've created a ministry, a space for kids to talk about it. I think that's a big part of it. We've created a ministry, a space for kids to process tough stuff. So at a previous church that I was part of, I had a colleague named Bobby who was brilliant and put together a program called Regroup and we ran it for a number of years. In fact, he went to University of Chicago to get a social work degree because what he was doing was so meaningful. He wanted something to support what he was building and now he's a counselor, owns a practice, but it's been published by David C. Cook and it's amazing stuff. And so we continue to use it. I brought

it with me. It's called regroup? Regroup. Yeah. Okay. And so it teaches kids five tools on how to process tough stuff in life. And it could be anxiety, depression, gender, sexuality issues, loss, grief, bullying. Because at the heart of it, there are really five spiritual practices.

So they follow a kind of a model, me, they, God, you, we. So the me tool is self-reflection, it's confession. What did I do to kind of create this problem in my own life? What have I done to kind of hurt somebody else or, you know, this is an ownership question. So we do two weeks on that and then we do the they tool and the question is, what have they done to me? And it's a lament tool.

This is how we grieve the stuff that's happened to us. And it helps kids distinguish between what I need to own and take responsibility for to what I don't need to own and doesn't mean I'm a bad person because I've been abused or because I struggled with this or that. The third week is the God tool. It's a gratitude tool, really, but it's understanding what role God has played in our life and understanding kind of the big picture in light of God.

And then we go to the you tool, which is actually a reconciliation forgiveness tool. So how do I go to the person that's hurt me or whom I've hurt and ask for forgiveness or extend forgiveness? So we talk about four people that we need to forgive or forgiveness. We need to give forgiveness. We need to get forgiveness from others. We need to get God's forgiveness and we need to forgive ourselves. And we go through this process for a couple of weeks. And then the last tool is the we tool. And it's how we live together in community. It's a fellowship tool. So how do we live together arm in arm, and how do we walk healing and reconciliation out

in a meaningful way? And throughout the 12 weeks, kids learn how to journal. They learn how to journal these spiritual practices. They write about them, they share about them. We have one-on-one mentors. We have small group discussion. We have large group teaching. So it's a really robust program that's been developed. And we get about half a dozen to a dozen at the most kids per semester for 12 weeks that

are part of it. But again, we have one-on-one mentors and that's one great way for adults to plug in that don't feel like they want to be part of the big crazy youth group thing. So wait, this isn't, it's not something you take the entire youth group through. It's a, it's a more like a, it's an opt-in. You invite people. Okay. How come you could, could you do the whole youth group thing. So wait, this isn't, it's not something you take the entire youth group through. It's a, it's a more like a, it's an opt-in. You invite people. Okay. How come you could, could you do the whole youth group or, or they need to be, they need to have

buy-in. Yeah. I, it would be, they'd have to have buy-in. I mean, I can teach and we've done this in the past. We've taught the tools, but the whole program is such that if you're not in, you know, really invested in it, you're not willing to do the journaling, you're not willing to talk about these things. We talk about the stages of change. If you're not in stage two or three, at least, it kind of becomes a placebo type of a thing. It was fun. It was cathartic to kind of but it long term results, it just aren't there. Okay, kids have to really invest in this and learn how to do it.

We've seen a lot of kids' lives turned around. That's fantastic, man. So it's almost like the Navy SEALs of the youth group. Yeah. Well, and you know, the kind of volunteers that we have in that ministry are, you know, the former alcoholics, you know, the people that have been in and out of prison, the Vietnam vet. We've just got some really seasoned believers that nothing shocks them. And so when they come to group and two broken, hurting kids that have a lot of issues start calling each

other names or picking a fight, it's like they're not fazed by it. They're not fazed when a kid talks about their sexuality or their gender struggles. They don't overreact. It's a beautiful place to be. Yeah. So on gender sexuality, it'd be good to go here. Have you seen an increase in people identifying across the LGBTQ plus spectrum and how have you navigated those conversations?

Yeah, we have. It's interesting. I mentioned when I was in Florida where I started youth ministry almost 30 years ago, we had kids that would have identified as gay, but I think that was more of a South Florida thing than it was going on really hadn't. But during the past probably eight to 10 years, yeah, certainly have seen an increase. I think there's more of a social permission to kind of be out there. There's a lot of affirmation on the one hand. I think it can really, you know, encourage kids that are not really

dealing with gender dysphoria. On the other hand, I think it means that kids that really are dealing with it and wrestling with it have a safe space to open up about it and feel supported. So our youth group, I've said to our volunteer teams, I want to be the youth group that all the gay and trans kids want to be at. Which is really fun. Do you get flack for that? I mean, how do you argue with it? Well, right. Do I get flack for it?

Yeah, no, no I don't. But you know what I do get? I do get a lot of people that come and say, thank you. Like that means a lot to me because, and then you get the, my daughter's gay or my neighbor's trans, my nephew. And that's when you realize that the issue is a lot more common, the issues,

and they're not out there, they're here. The statistics bear that out. But when you start talking about that and it becomes a regular place, point of application, and a people group that we're concerned about and praying for, boy, it makes kids feel real comfortable to be part of our group. So we've seen a lot of, not I'm just saying a lot,

probably bears the regular statistics out. I can think of three or four kids in our group that are trans. I know we've got three or four gay kids that come and they've been pretty consistent too. These are some of the kids that love Jesus and are reading the Bibles and praying and I'm really proud of them.

So I'm glad that we're that kind of youth group. How do you handle teaching on sexuality and gender, especially, do you talk about theology or is it more, yeah, how do you handle that? That can be sensitive, right? Because if you have a whole spectrum of kids with certain beliefs or whatever and you don't want to ostracize some, but you also want to be truthful of what you and the church believes. Well, so whenever we talk about gender sexuality, where it's going to be a little tricky, I let the parents know. I'll send out an email, hey, we're talking about this this week. Just want you to be prepared. Here's my outline. Here's what we're going to talk about.

And really, whenever I do that, the only people that opt out are the really conservative Christian kids that are like either homeschool or go to a small Christian school, which makes it freer to actually talk about the issue. So I've gotten, I mean, that's where you get a little bit of pushback. But you know, we talk about God's created design, but we talk more so about matter of God's grace. And the one doctrine that keeps coming, and this is kind of foundational for my, it's one of my theological filters. You think about divorce and the divorce decree,

like this is the God that declares, I hate divorce, and yet he's the author of the divorce decree. And the reason is because of the hardness of man's hearts. In other words, God, if God really hates divorce, and I think he does, I think scriptures, I can defend that, why would he do such a thing? Why would he be so permissive in this matter? And it's to protect the most vulnerable. And I think that at the very heart of God, that's what we find is a God who cares for the vulnerable, the widow, the orphan, the alien. And in our community, this happens to be in this season of life, you know, trans and gay

kids who are committing suicide at a higher rate than anybody else. They're more vulnerable to manipulation and attack and influences. A lot of these kids are coming from other backgrounds of trauma and brokenness, and they need God's mercy. And so, there's a degree of permission giving that I think, you know, God's divorce decree gives us as pastors and shepherds in his church to say, there's grace enough, you know, you can come, you can be part of this community, you can serve, you can grow, you can pursue Jesus with us, and it's okay. And I'm gonna trust the Holy Spirit to work out the rest of that stuff.

We've got a fantastic trans fella that comes to our church and he's interested in transitioning back because, not because he feels any less, you know, uncomfortable in his skin, but because he feels he wants to honor God in that way. It's an offering that he's giving back. And that wouldn't happen if we held a hard line that, you know, this is the way God made us and this is how it's going to be. And I believe that. And we teach Orthodox understandings of sexuality and for the most part gender. But we try to create an incredibly safe, open space for people to grow and learn and be embraced and loved.

And there's concessions for brokenness. I mean, we live in a world where they can't control that any more than a divorced woman could control that in the Old Testament. That's really interesting, man. Yeah. That's a helpful way of framing it. And I found that, yeah, giving people space, relational space to be on a journey and where they are in their journey might not be exactly where we are or where we want them to ultimately be. But when people don't feel

pressured to be at a certain place that they're not at yet, I think that gives them the freedom, just some breathing room, you know, to just, gosh, let me just be able to process this and think through it. But when I think when the church asserts kind of immediate sanctification, you must be here, otherwise you're not welcome. It just has a reverse effect. It pushes people away, you know? Yeah. And that's a community that is readily embraced everywhere else, right? Like there's a sinister agenda that will love you just the way you are, you know? You don't need to change. We we'll love you just the way you are, you know? You don't need to change, we just, you know, we'll celebrate you for all of the, you know, upside down messed up person you are. And,

you know, so if the church doesn't respond with like, interest and welcome, there's no way these people are going to find Jesus. And there's no way they're going to find community and healing. You know, I think that's corporate. That comes through community. That's good. That's good, man. How do you handle teaching? Like, when you meet on, oh, first of all, you have a gathering on Sunday and, like, Wednesday night

or something, or is it just midweek? We do Sunday nights. We do something on Sunday mornings called Breakfast Club. It's kind of just a landing place for students. We have Thursday night regroup, but then Sunday night is our major junior high, high school. They meet two separate places, same time, same building. We just kind of rotate around and do teaching for both and smuggles for both. And is it teaching?

Tell us about how do you handle the teaching? What does that look like? As far as like what we're teaching or like- Just like format, I guess. Is it like a traditional sermon or is it more dialogical or, you know, how long? It's funny, my, you know, Joel was pestering me the other day about recording my messages. And I'm like, it would be really unfortunate because I have conversations in the middle of my teaching. I'll be teaching something and I'll stop and I'll ask one of the kids

a question and then we'll banter back and forth about something. And like, if you weren't in the room, like, it'd be silly. But I think we probably teach like most youth groups do. One of the priorities that I have is helping kids understand how to read the Bible. And I think it's one of my highest priorities. So we don't pull back on that. We read scripture, we read scripture out loud. We expect kids to think and reflect

and interpret it. We give them a tool called STARS. So, it's just an interpretive tool. Look for something familiar, themes, attributes of God, repetition, and something strange or something surprising. So, a lot of times I'll say, hey, I'm going to read a passage. I want you to look for STARS. And when you look for STARS, you see a constellation, that kind of, that picture tells a story, that story inspires. And so, this is kind of how we teach kids to read the Bible. There's a lot more to it than that, but this is a great, easy, accessible way to teach

a junior high kid how to read Scripture. When we're in small group, they're picking apart that same exact passage, they're noticing, you know, we talk about kind of parallelism, repetition. Repetition is kind of the catchall that we use for a lot of those literary tools. But we're teaching our kids how to read Scripture and to see those types of things. And so our teaching time is oftentimes that interaction. What do you see? Hey, that's really great. I never saw that. And I have a chance to affirm them because each one of these young people has, you know, the Holy Spirit within them, at least those who've submitted to Christ. And they're, God's working in

them and teaching them things that I'll never see because I've got, you know, 50-year-old white dude eyes, right? But I love it when a junior high kid interprets Scripture for me because they see things that I'll never pick up. And so, we enjoy that. We enjoy affirming that. And so, our teaching is oftentimes that. A lot of times it's topical, but we teach our topics within the context of a particular book. So right now we're in Matthew, we're doing the Beatitudes, upside down kingdom, that's like what, a million youth groups in churches doing this right now, right?

Waiting for November. But what we're doing is we're, you know, if Jesus teaches the kingdom, and these are the Beatitudes, the attributes of the kingdom, we should see these kingdom attributes show up in Matthew's gospel. So, we looked at the centurion and the Canaanite woman and then the centurion at the cross, and how these things come up, and we see humility, we see meekness, we see peacemaking, we see, you know, mercy, pure of heart, we see justice. And so, we're trying to help them understand thematically what Matthew's doing and stay in that gospel and see how he's threading this idea of peacemaking from the proclamation of the angels through, you know, the coming of Christ, the Beatitudes, the peacemaking

that culminates on the cross when the Roman's insurance says, this surely is the Son of God. And we're helping them understand that kind of thing. So again, we're not playing silly games in our teaching times. We're not talking about, you know, cultural topics. I'm teaching the kids how to read scripture and then how to apply that to their lives in meaningful ways. So our bar is set a little bit higher on that regard.

I mean, I think it is. I haven't attended a lot of other youth groups, but when I look at the curriculum out there, I think we're a little. So when the students show up, they're not just passive. They might get called on, they might be asked to read scripture, or you might interact with them or... You know, a little bit more.

The ones that interact, interact, right? There's others that just, they're wallflowers and they're just closed off. But it happens a lot of times in small group. So that's where they're, every week they've got a passage that they're picking apart and they're they're digging deep And I don't think that's something that the church teaches really well and how to read the Bible and how to interpret it and apply It and some it's something that I think that student ministry is uniquely positioned to do to prepare these kids to have a relationship With Christ through scripture to listen for the Holy Spirit So I'm preparing them not just

for now. It's, I want these kids to have these skills when they sit in church later on. Yeah. What, what are some main things students are wondering about whether they say it out loud, but hopefully, you know, we can get below the surface and like, what are the questions that are actually on your mind? What keeps you up at night? Is it cultural things? Is it gender sexuality? Is it, is it Bible or does God exist? How do I know the Bible's true? Was it politics? Is it all the above? I mean, our young people. Yeah. Yeah. Like, are they thinking about deep things like that or are some of them just like, I don't know, I'm just kind of, you know what I think they are.

I really do think they are. But, you know, I think for the most part, junior high kids are just thinking about how to survive tomorrow. You know, that's, developmentally, that's just where they're at. I think when you get into high school, they're asking some deeper questions. I always talk about, you know, student ministry and that, you know, junior high asked the question, do you like me? They're trying to figure out, do I fit? Am I okay?

Am I fitting the mold? You know, am I likable? And do you like me? And for a volunteer, if they can answer that question affirmatively, then that kid will follow them to hell and back with a squirt gun. Junior high ministry, I think, is the easiest job in the church. Really? Oh, I do. I've said it a million times. Again, all they want to know is, do you like me?

And if you can say, I like you, here, let's go. They'll follow you anywhere. And their parents are so glad to get rid of them for an hour. So like, junior high ministry is simple. You know, if you want to feel like a rock star, junior high ministry, junior high is a place to start the, the, the gap between the hardest and the easiest job in the church is, is a summer. I think the hardest job in the church is high school. Cause they're asking the question, do I like you? there's a little bit of a cynicism there and are you gonna give me what I need and there's a Are you worth my time kind of a thing and college students are asking the question? Do I like me?

They're wondering. Okay. I've gotten this place in my life where I'm making big decisions. I've chosen my career I might have chosen my my spouse Maybe maybe not my my gender, my sexuality, my vocation, am I happy with who I've turned out to be? And I think a lot of kids have this identity crisis at that moment where they begin to question those things and they wonder, this is where you get that failure to thrive, failure to launch. But I talk about it as the terrible twos, right?

You have two, 12 and 22 become these age transitions where we begin, we have more autonomy, whether it's talking and walking or abstract thinking and communication, social relationships, or at 22 there's a cultural end to adolescence where it's like, I'm supposed to be on my own. And there's an identity crisis that goes on there. So I think when you ask what are they thinking about, I think that those are really developmentally rooted.

For a junior high kid, it's, I want to be likable. I want to fit in. I want to be cool. When you talk to a high school kid, it's, all right, I want to be myself. I want to have some self-expression. Are you part of my posse, my crew or not? And by the time you get to college,

they're asking a different set of questions and they're really starting to think. Which means the church has to be positioned to answer those questions. And I think today, because of the phone in their pocket and the access to social media and news and information, both true and false, they're asking those questions. How do I understand gender? Not just transgender matters, but how do I understand girls?

How do I understand guys? How do I understand these topics that pop up in the news? How do I take a stand politically? Is it safe to be one or the other? I'm going to alienate myself from half of my life if I let them know the yard sign I put in my yard. They're asking the same questions that our adults are asking. They're just not asking them out loud and they're not looking for answers out loud.

They're doing their research online. So when a kid comes to us and asks those questions, like I said earlier, I think they come with a pocket full of Google answers that they've already entertained for a while. Are they into politics and how do they think through Republicans, Democrats, Trump? I asked the question this week and half the hands in the room went up. Like how many of you are interested in politics? Half of them raised a hand. Okay. Wait, is that more or less than you thought? It's about as much as I expected. You know, I think on a national average,

that's about how many people are, I mean, 50%, 60% are interested in vote, right? Most of the kids just follow their parents' politics most of the time. Okay. So, and our church is, I think, pretty middle of the road. I mean, I don't think we're a super conservative church. I don't think we're liberal. You know, we're not R or D, but the kids, and listen, it matters to them because it's just part of the ethos of the culture that we live in. It's their newsfeed, right? It's the, it's just, it's out there. I mean, you can't walk to school without walking past 20 yard signs. Is it, you're in a yard sign community? Oh my gosh. It's annoying. Yeah, they're everywhere. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not,

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, Yeah. Yeah. I've actually seen a Confederate, maybe a couple of Confederate flags in the last like four or five years. It's that's pretty rare, but definitely. I mean, American flags back of the truck. I just thought the wind re so many of these flags are ginormous. And I'm like, dude, you're killing your gas mileage with the systems and some of the, how can you afford that?

They put a parachute in the back of your car. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So, so the kids are interested in Paul, but they're, they're So, okay. So, so the kids are interested in Paul, but they're, they're not, they're not super opinionated necessarily. Like this is their main thing. I do have kids that'll come with, with t-shirts though. You know, it's funny. I've got a couple of kids that are, that are pretty, and it's usually the, the strong Republican kind of Trump fans that'll, that'll do that. But it's funny. And nobody gives them much attention anyway, so people just ignore it. But there are a few.

But like I said, I think for the most part kids are just worried about day to day. You know what? One of the questions that I think most of my kids are asking is how do I love and interact with my trans friends at school? Because I don't understand that. Okay, yeah. Most of my kids that are cisgender just don't have a context in there. I mean, they can't identify with it.

It's hard enough that they're moving from concrete to abstract in that early adolescence phase, but then to try to add that abstract, I mean, that's a pretty big stretch for a lot of these kids. But they're wondering, how do I do that? How do I interact with my friend who used to be a girl in grade school and now she's a guy and you know, her name is Alex and you know, she's got short hair and do you have kids that do battle like homophobia

or transphobia or are most kids pretty accepting? And I guess two part question compared to like maybe 20, when you first started youth ministry, I would assume you probably had a lot of a lot more of that. Has that shifted or is there still quite a bit of that? No, I think I think it certainly has shifted. I think it's it's far more accepted today than before. I mean, we've got a culture that's really put a high emphasis on kind of not just tolerance, but accepting and and validating people. So I think kids have grown up with that. And I think that's right.

I think that's what Christ calls us to do, is to love our neighbor the farthest out. And I'm glad that that's the case and that my kids are wrestling with those things. Because it's not, I find it more often than not, the question that needs to be answered is how, not what. You know, what do I believe? Most of these kids have that lockdown.

How do I live that out? How do I love my trans friend? You know, how do I interact? Most of these kids have that lockdown. How do I live that out? How do I love my trans friend? How do I interact with my gay friend who has a crush on me? That's hard. How do you teach these kids how to interact with others in the love of Christ in that, if they be attitudes in an upside down,

backwards sort of way that doesn't look like the rest of my friends. But yet the world expects us to, right? The world expects us to love the trans kids and the gay kids and the Democrats. And, you know, we're expected to cross those boundaries and validate and love everybody. And I think Christ calls us to the same thing, but I think a lot of these kids just don't know how to do it. Yeah. And that's the question. I think if you ask them, what's the one that's keeping them up at night, I think some of that's that they want to. Yeah, that's good. Well, Pete, man, it's been so fun talking to you. We only, we hung out briefly over lunch last month. And so this has been fun, man. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Been a great conversation. Make me think a lot. How about just as we

go resources you could recommend. I mean, you mentioned regroup. You also mentioned an author I'm blanking on it, but a couple of times you mentioned somebody, it seems like you've read a lot of his stuff. Yeah. I'm a big reader. So, uh, well, chap Clark's, I think I mentioned him, his book 2.0 hurt 2.0 was really formative for me. That's a, it's an older book. He wrote a book called adoptive youth ministry, which I think is fantastic. He's actually the editor on that, which has a lot of great thoughts about how the church interacts. I think a lot of the Barna research that's out

there is fantastic. So going back to You Lost Me to Faith for Exiles, The Growing With, Growing Young is a fantastic piece of work. And it's all by the Kinnaman group, Kara Powell and sticky faith is fantastic. Yeah. That seems super solid. Yeah. I'm a big fan of Andrew root and what's coming out of Princeton. Um, and in the theological turn in youth ministry, um, Andrew, it's a, I don't know if you even know that name, but he's up at Luther, um, seminary, uh, and just fantastic just fantastic. He wrote a fantastic work called Christo Praxis, which is practicing the presence of Christ, kind of a, we are the embodiment, the infleshing of Christ out in the world. That's been formative, but he's got a number

of youth ministry books that are centered around that. He's moved on to some other areas as well, but he's doing youth ministry at the graduate level up there. It's just a lot of really good stuff out there. And I'm, you know, I'm in the place where I'm thinking, trying to think more broadly about these things and apply them to the church. And so the gimmicky how-to kind of stuff, I don't do a whole lot of, so, but that's out there. There's a lot of great stuff out there

and resources and tools. All right, thanks Pete, really appreciate you, man. Have a good one. Yeah, thanks Prest. Really appreciate you, man. Have a good one. Yeah, thanks, Preston. Appreciate you. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus Podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day.

And together we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's word in a way that you can really understand it. If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Haven, and as long as I can remember, I have had different curiosities and thoughts

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