Theology in the Raw - S2: BONUS Q&A: Patreon Special (June 2023)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey friends, welcome back to another Q&A episode of Theology in a Raw. This is where my Patreon supporters send in a whole list of questions and then they vote on which questions they want me to address. And I spent about an hour, hour and a half working through all their questions. And what you're going to get here is a sneak peek into the first few minutes of that longer episode. If you want access to the full-length episode along with access to lots of other kinds of premium content, then you can become a Patreon supporter for as little as five bucks a month. Just go to patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw. You can find the link in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:00:32 Okay, so here's some questions that I'm going to work through in this episode. What are my thoughts on boycotting Target and Budweiser? How to respond if my company asks me to run a pride campaign at work? Did Paul think Jesus was going to return during his lifetime? What are my thoughts on divine counsel? How to incorporate theological education in church? What are my thoughts on pride flags being displayed on the set of The Chosen? So lots of pride questions here.

Starting point is 00:00:56 Were Old Testament gods demons? Does not affirming trans people increase the risk of suicide? And on and on and on the list goes. You can find, I think, all of the questions, at least most of the list goes you can find uh i think all of the questions at least most of the questions in the show notes so let's go ahead and jump into the first question what are my thoughts on boycotting target and or Budweiser, or more precisely, thoughts on doing so, on encouraging others to do so publicly. Is this unloving to LGBTQ people? First of all, I absolutely think Christians should boycott Budweiser because they make terrible beer.

Starting point is 00:01:38 Just kidding. Sort of. No, so I think we should actually reframe this question instead of, well, I think the general question is, should Christians boycott companies that don't claim to be Christian for not adhering to Christian values? It's kind of the meat of this whole issue, right? Should we boycott companies that use sex to sell, that put people over profits, that don't believe in caring for the poor, that sell products made in inhumane conditions, diamonds and chocolate and so on. What about companies? This is going to be fun. What about companies that support the U.S. military? That's going to be a little debated there.

Starting point is 00:02:16 But what about companies that just support America as a whole? That was a country built on the backs of slaves and the near annihilation of indigenous people. And on and on it goes. I mean, again, some of you are going to resonate with some of these concerns more than others, but you get the point. I do get nervous when it constantly seems like it's one particular issue, namely issues related to LGBTQ people that Christians get all up in arms over. I don't think that brands the church well at all, even if there were some moral concerns with how the companies were going about it. I think we should just be consistent. If we only support companies that are moral or adhere to values that resonate with Christianity, then I can respect that. I think it's totally fine for Christians to support

Starting point is 00:03:14 various companies or don't support various companies for various moral reasons. If you like what a company stands for and you really want to support them, then great. If you don't like a company and you don't know what it stands for, then fine. But I think we should be consistent. I think it's a really bad look when Christians always seem to get up in arms over issues related to LGBTQ people. The world knows what we're against. Oftentimes, they don't know what we are for. There was that survey done, this is almost 20 years ago now, in the book Un-Christian by Gabe Lyons and David Kinnaman, where they surveyed what non-believers think about Christianity. And the number one thing, the number one response when people thought of Christian, when they thought of church, the number one response is they're anti-gay.

Starting point is 00:03:59 Number one. It was like 91 or 92% or something like that of people responded when they were asked, what do you think about Christians? Number two is like judgmental, number three, hypocritical or something like that. So, you know, I want people to, when they think of the church, to think of Jesus, to think of forgiveness, to think of love, to think of grace, to think of truth, you know, to think of holiness. Like these are the things that the church should be known for, not just the certain issues that always seem to be against. And also, I would say, so I mean, obviously, there's been decades of tension between the church and the LGBTQ community. But I think the church is complicit in a lot of that.

Starting point is 00:04:44 Not every church, not every Christian. I don't like it when people just broad brush like the whole church is hateful towards LGBTQ people. That's just not true, and that's not fair. But we've got a pretty poor history here. Do I even need to say that? So I've said this in several, when I give talks on this, but there was a large study done by Andrew Marin and some other people that surveyed 1,712 LGBT people regarding their religious background. What's the religious background of LGBT people.

Starting point is 00:05:15 And that survey discovered that 83%, 83% of LGBT people were raised in the church and 51% end up leaving the church after 18, but only 3%. If you look at the study, only 3% said they left it. The number one reason why they left the church was for theological reasons regarding the church's view on marriage and sexuality. Most of the people that left the church, LGBT people that left the church, said they were scared of being at the church. They're tired of people trying to change their sexual orientation. They were not just simply treated well at the church, like relational reasons, not theological reasons.

Starting point is 00:05:58 And look, we can dissect that all day long. Um, and look, we can dissect that all day long. You know, um, I'm, I'm sure some people actually had a good, you know, had some loving people at the church and then they left and maybe they were complicit in, you know, uh, some of their relationships gone wrong that they had at the church. But there is a good number of people that have LGBT people who have had absolutely legitimate reasons for feeling, uh feeling very unloved and mistreated in the church. So when you look out at that, you know, that non-Christian LGBT community over there, you know, outside the church walls, and they seem to be so angry at the church

Starting point is 00:06:38 and pushing their agenda and all this stuff, like a lot of people in that community were raised in a church that had a very bad experience in the church, legitimately bad experience in the church, not simply theological disagreement, but like they did not experience Christlike love and grace in the church. So when you see, it's kind of like the blowback effect, right? Like, you know, why do, why does it seem like so many people, um, maybe? Why does it seem like so many people, maybe, why does it seem like some people in the Middle East just hate America? They hate America, and especially after 9-11, like, why would they do this to us? What have we done to them? Well, that's a good question. Let's go back in the last 80 years of history and see how America has meddled in Middle Eastern affairs and have done

Starting point is 00:07:26 some really, really terrible things in several Middle Eastern countries. So there's a blowback effect. And that doesn't mean the blowback is right. I'm not saying that's right, but there are roots to these things. And instead of simply waking up and boycotting Target or Budweiser, let's look at our churches. Let's look at our culture and say, what are some things we're doing wrong with the many, many LGBT people who are in our walls right now, who are perhaps not treated well, who are scared to death to tell anybody that, you know, what they're going through. So yeah, I've, yeah, simply, you know, boycotting these companies, I think is just not a good look on the church.

Starting point is 00:08:05 So, yeah, a lot more to say, but let's move on because we have some other questions here that are somewhat related to that. Next question comes from Gabe. He asks, I work in marketing. How would you respond if your company asks you to run a pride campaign? Okay, so this, I just want to acknowledge that there's layers of difficulty here. I mean, when you're working in a secular, for a secular company, you know, there's going to be many values that you're going to interact with that don't resonate with Christianity. That's just what it means to be in the secular workplace. And so I think I should acknowledge that like

Starting point is 00:08:43 most people listening are in secular workplaces. You know, I've just been in church world my whole life. So it's like, man, this is, you know, a question that I haven't had to wrestle with directly. But I think we have to ask the question, like, what are the hills we're going to die on? Right. I mean, that's something we face every single day when we're outside the church walls, you know, what are some areas where it's like, you know, okay, I don't really resonate with this, but this isn't a hill I'm going to die on. I'm going to sort of, you know, concede, I'm going to accommodate to the secular environment or that I'm in. Um, and then there might be other areas where it's like, no, this is like, I cannot do this.

Starting point is 00:09:19 I cannot do this. This would be a violation of my conscience. It would be a sin, something sinful or whatever that I just cannot do. So I just want to acknowledge that questions related to things like this question, running a pride campaign, can fall in that somewhat gray area. Is this a hill you would die on? So and each situation is different. Each company is different. Each set of relationships are different. So I don't want to give a one-size-fits-all answer to this.

Starting point is 00:09:49 I personally, I can't think of a situation where I would, when asked, that I would say, yes, I would run this Pride campaign. run this pride campaign. Um, this is, and I don't, most gay people I know wouldn't want me to be the one in charge of running the pride campaign, you know, like, yeah, I, I, if they knew my beliefs, they knew as a Christian, they would probably assume that this would kind of go against my Christian beliefs and values. And I don't think they would want the, the person who doesn't affirm same-sex marriage to be the one running the pride campaign. Most gay people, I think it's straight people, straight, kind of more progressive people who would be the ones who would really demand that I do that. I don't think most gay people would actually want me to be in charge of that. I mean, I wouldn't expect a Native American to be in charge of running the Columbus Day festivities. Or how about, would I put a

Starting point is 00:10:43 descendant of slaves to be the one in charge of the Fourth of July celebration? Would I put my Jewish employee, you know, on the barbecue smoking ribs, you know, at the company picnic? So I think and I think most people kind of get that. I think I hope. Yeah. So I'll have to say, I don't, I think it would, I could be offensive to, I would say a decent number of gay people if I was the one running the pride campaign. So, and I also, you know, I know, I think some people would say, no, I would do it, you know, even if I don't believe in same sex marriage, you know, cause I want to, I do want to kind of like what I said about the previous question. Like, you know, you want to kind of reverse the branding of the church, right? You don't want to be that person that's just you know against lgbt you know perceived as being against

Starting point is 00:11:28 the lgbtq community i get that and i i resonate with that concern i also don't i don't know i i'm also very nervous about the whole like bait and switch thing like making christianity more palatable or kind of like almost being ashamed of what you believe to where you aren't going to kind of ever kind of say what you actually believe. Like, you know, and I think the desire is we, you know, we want to make kind of Christianity more palatable. Uh, we want to be nice, being nice. We'll get people into the kingdom, whatever. But I just can't, people follow Jesus because they've had a radical encounter with the risen Lord of the universe, which is incredibly disruptive and uncomfortable and comforting at the same

Starting point is 00:12:11 time, you know? So yeah, I just, I also don't, I don't want to try to like shoehorn people into the kingdom or make Jesus out to be this nice, easy savior, you know? So I want to make sure I'm not being offensive with the gospel, that I'm being extremely kind in how I present my viewpoints, that I'm not being obnoxious, that I'm not being kind of like a spiritual bully or anything. But I think if with kindness and grace and integrity and humility, I say I don't believe I'm the right person to run this campaign for these reasons. I don't think people are going to all of a sudden not believe in Jesus because of that, because of my posture. So, yeah, tough, but tough. I mean, this is me kind of my kind of personal reflections on this and not having been in this kind of really difficult position.

Starting point is 00:13:03 So I know the, you know, the one asking this question probably is in a really difficult spot and I don't want to minimize the difficulty there. All right. Next question. Davis asked the question, I heard Paul was so sure that Jesus was going to come back in his lifetime that most of his mandates for churches were supposed to be short term. What are my thoughts on this? This is fairly common. Well, it's fairly common among scholars, New Testament scholars, to say that Paul did think this in his earlier letters, that he was expecting Jesus to come back in his lifetime in his earlier letters, like first and second Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians. But then in his later letters, he kind of realized like, oh my gosh, okay, maybe Jesus isn't coming back anytime soon.

Starting point is 00:13:54 And that's when he started to kind of lay down some more long-term structures in the church, specifically in first and second Timothy and Titus. That's a common kind of assumption among scholars. At least it used to be back when I was like knee deep in a New Testament scholarship. But even that is kind of disputed. So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say it's such a universal belief that it just has absolutely overwhelming biblical support for it. I think sometimes we can read a little bit too much into what Paul says. Like, do we actually, you know, Paul does seem to express kind of an urgency, kind of an immediacy with Christ coming back, like in 1 Corinthians 7, especially, you know, and some people say that's why he said, you know, if you're single, you shouldn't worry about

Starting point is 00:14:40 getting married and, you know, let's just stay single. And, you know, some people assume that, well, you know, he probably thought Jesus was coming back in the next couple of years, whatever. So why not just remain single for a few months and then we'll all, you know, be resurrected or whatever. So I don't know. I think that's maybe reading too much into some of Paul's urgency. Like we don't know. I don't even know what Paul actually believed unless he explicitly said it. And he didn't explicitly say like, man, Jesus is coming back in a couple of years. So, you know, let's, let's live like that. You, I mean, you do have, well, just on that note, like you, throughout the New Testament, you have this, the idea of Christ's imminency, the imminence of Christ's return, that he can come back at any moment. Like this is, this is a theme throughout the New Testament. I mean,

Starting point is 00:15:23 so it's, it's, that's it. That's a that's a theme pretty clear in the Gospels, right? Like that's not really disputed. But the Gospels are written after Paul's letters. There's a dispute about Mark. You know, maybe Mark was, if he was the first Gospel. Let's see. I think Mark was still, even early dating, some early dates of Mark would still put Mark after most of Paul's letters, if not all of Paul's letters. But the other three gospels are certainly written after Paul's letters.

Starting point is 00:15:49 And they still contain, you know, this strong theme of imminency. And other letters. I was just reading 1 Peter the other day. In 1 Peter 4, 7, you know, he says, the end of all things is near. So, I just, yeah. And that's Peter, not Paul. things is near. So I just, yeah. And that's Peter, not Paul. But still, I do think that the dominant theme in the New Testament is the imminence of Christ's return. If anything, that we should live as if Christ can come back at any moment. So yeah, I don't think we can say

Starting point is 00:16:17 strongly that, yes, Paul absolutely believed that Jesus was going to come back in his lifetime. Certainly his later letters don't give that impression. Okay. Next question. What are my thoughts on the divine council? Do you think there are other created beings, uh, besides angels and earthly creatures? And are there any implications for evil with regard to this question? Um, yeah. So divine council that refers to the spiritual beings that formed a kind of council, uh, assembly that God interacted with, interact, interacts with, um, the, one of the, I mean, there's several passages that, that, uh, give a window into this idea that one of the more famous ones is Psalm 82, one where it says, God presides in the great assembly. He renders judgment among the gods, among the Elohim.

Starting point is 00:17:09 Oh, who's, oh, I'm blanking on his name. Hold on. Michael Heiser, Michael Heiser, who passed away a few months ago. Michael Heiser has done some of the best work on the divine council. Very, very provocative stuff, very thorough. So I commend any of, I mean, honestly, most of the books he's written deals with the divine counsel on some level. The Unseen Realm is one of the more famous ones. It's super, super good. Well, when we talk about spirit beings, I think it's important to understand different classes, different kinds of spirit beings. It's so common for Christians to use, not just Christians, I guess a lot of people, comment for Christians to use, not just Christians, I guess a lot of people, to use the term angel as a catch-all for all spiritual beings. The angels are a certain kind of spiritual being. So,

Starting point is 00:17:53 throughout the scripture, you see various kinds of spiritual beings, including angels would be one. There's also cherubim, cherubim. I see cherubim in Ezekiel 1 Ezekiel 10 seraphim in Isaiah 6 cherubim are different from seraphim and those are different from angels this is why I've said and if you haven't heard this

Starting point is 00:18:17 this might knock you out of your chair I don't know but like angels in the Bible don't have wings not a single passage in the Bible where an angel what is it? Malach or Angelos, um, in the Greek where one of those kinds of spiritual beings has a wing.

Starting point is 00:18:34 Angels, when they appear in scripture, look like what? They look like humans, men in particular, which is why, you know, you have like Abraham talking to angels in Genesis and didn't even realize it. And then he had several passages where somebody encounters an angel and, and thinks they're just talking to another human being. And they find out later it was actually an angel, not, not a, not a man. Cherubim, they got wings. Seraphim have a lot of wings. In Revelation four,

Starting point is 00:18:58 there's an interesting passage where there's a description of what's called the four living creatures, which seems to be like a combination. Hey friends, I hope you enjoyed this portion of the Patreon-only Q&A podcast. If you would like to listen to the full-length episode and receive other bonus content like monthly podcasts, opportunities to ask questions, access to first drafts of my research and monthly Zoom chats and more, then please head over to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw to join Theology in the Raw's Patreon community. That's patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.

Theology in the Raw - S2: BONUS Q&A: Patreon Special (June 2023)

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