Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1001: #1001 - The Blood and the Bread: Francis Chan

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

At last year’s “Exiles in Babylon” conference, Francis Chan kicked it off with a bang! He opened up the whole can of Chan about why we need to get back to the centrality of the Eucharist. This podcast episode is a recording of that talk, along with the couch conversation I had with him and the audience Q & A.  To register for next year’s “Exiles in Babylon” 2023 conference, go to theologyintheraw.com to register to attend in person or live-stream.  If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!  –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/theology –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. Today's podcast episode is a recording of Francis Chan's talk at last year's Exiles in Babylon conference. He focused on the Eucharist, focused on the unity of the church. It was very challenging, if not provocative. And then Francis and I sat down on the couch, had a conversation, and then we fielded questions from the audience. So the entire Francis Chan event is here for your listening ears. If you would like to check out next year's Exiles in Babylon conference, all the info is at theologyintheraw.com. Space is already filling up fairly fast.

It will probably sell out. Last year's event sold out. So if you want to attend live, I would register sooner than later. All right, here's Francis Chan back on Theology in Iran. I wanted to put the bread and cup in the center of the church because Because for the first 1,500 years after Christ, this is what they did. The body and blood

were always central. The church gathered to partake of the body and blood of Christ. This was always in the center. And people would just be in awe, and he was always center stage. It wasn't until 500 years ago that a guy named Ulrich Zwingli

decided to move communion from the center, move it off to the side, and put his pulpit there. Did you know that? 1500 years, Jesus was always at the center. And then suddenly, someone moves it and puts a wooden pulpit in the center. And then priests and other guys go, gosh, that's kind of cool. Let me do that. Let me do that. And so what used to unify us, what used to bring us all together this is what was supposed to bring us together there's supposed to be one cup one piece of bread but the moment we started

doing pulpits in the center pretty soon it's about no the pulpit at our church my pastor his theology is better than the pulpit over there and the pulpit over there and the pulpit over there. And now we have these 30,000 denominations I hear. And everyone's fighting about who's right. And do you realize that for the first thousand years, there was one church. We weren't arguing about who had the best theology. There was one church for a thousand years.

It's crazy. And for the first 1,500 years, everyone, everyone believed, all believers believed in the real presence of Christ in the bread and the cup. Now, the first thousand years, it was a mystery. It was like, we don't know. We don't know how it happens. We don't know when it happens. We don't know to what extent it happens.

But just somehow, Christ is with us in the bread and the cup. Later, after the great schism in 1054 in the West, I think it was around 1200 or so, they began to define and say, well, it happens here, and this is exactly what happens, and we'll call it transubstantiation. But before that, it was just always a mystery. Like, I don't know how he does it. He just somehow said, this is my body. This is my blood. I don't know what happens, but people were excited to come and actually partake. In fact, 1 Corinthians 10 says that, he says, this bread that we bless, verse 16, the cup of blessing that we bless, verse 16, the cup of blessing that we bless,

is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there's one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake the one bread. So he says this cup that we partake of, is it not a koinonia, a participation in the blood of Christ? There's some sort of koinonia.

If you look up koinonia in a lexicon, actually the first thing that comes up is intercourse. That somehow there's this, with the blood and my blood, that somehow there's this koinonia going on with me and almighty Jesus. That somehow this bread that I take of, like I can eat it and somehow there's some sort of

flesh that connects with his. I can't explain it. I'm just reading it. Okay, this one table was supposed to bring us together. And it's crazy now that after all these different pulpits started taking center stage, now suddenly people are saying, no, you're not welcome to the table at my church. The one thing that was supposed to bring us together, now you have people who will say, yes, that's my brother in Christ, but I can't break

bread with him. Yes, that's my sister in Christ, but I can't allow her to this table. Yes, the Holy Spirit is in that person, but we can't do this together. I'm like, do you really believe that could be God's will? That we have like 20 different tables? No, I've been talking to Roman Catholic believers. I'm like, okay, can you look me in the eye and tell me you believe that that is what God would want? And I get it. I get it.

You don't want to just let anyone partake of it because it's a very terrifying thing that we do. I mean, 1 Corinthians 11, verses 27 through 30 says, a man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread or drinks of the cup because anyone who eats or drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks of the cup. Because anyone who eats or drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and sick, but

a number of you have died. It's a terrifying thing. He says, okay, you better examine yourself. You better examine yourself. You better recognize the body. What does he mean by that? Well, if now many believe, and I believe too, that there's something that he's referring to in the actual bread and the cup that you have to recognize this as the body of the Lord. But if you look in context of 1 Corinthians 11 and 12, when he's talking about the body,

remember he says to the Corinthians, he goes, that what you guys partake in, he goes, that is not the Lord's supper. He goes, don't call that's the Lord's supper. When some are drunk and others are hungry and you're not recognizing them as a part of the body, he goes, you're making a mockery of the Lord's supper because you don't recognize the body. The rich were coming and it was kind of like a potluck, but the rich would hang together and they have all sorts of food.

And then the poor would hang together and they wouldn't have enough. These guys are drunk. And Paul's saying, you're calling that the Lord's supper? There's these divisions among you and you're calling it the Lord's supper? You better be careful because this is why some of you are sick and some of you have died. It blows me away how many years I went to a church and we would take a communion and no one gave that warning that you might die partaking in this. I mean, when, like, is that the most ridiculous thing. When you read about the Old Testament and that the Holy of Holies, Moses didn't just set it up and go, yeah, just check it out sometime. No, they were very specific,

like, hey, do not go in there. Do not touch it. Don't get anywhere near it. One person at one time of the year, he can do it. And then he's got to go in the right way. You got to do this right because it's the presence of God. I truly believe this is the holy of holies in the New Testament. What other warning do you see in this book in the New Testament where it says you better be careful because you could die doing this? And warning, look, I mean, this is just scripture. I was challenged by a friend of mine a few years ago. His friend says, I bet you all the church history you know is from the last 500 years.

He goes, what do you know about what believers did during the first 300 years? I said, I don't know they didn't have scripture to exegete what they do paul would go plant a church in like two weeks he would he'd go to some places like two weeks and then leave and the church goes on what do they do it's, I never thought about it. You start looking, and you go, wow, this was so central, so sacred, and it was always at the center. I remember my friend from India was driving me to a speaking event in Texas. And we get there, and it was like crazy production. Like, I mean, animals, you know, fog machines, like everything, seriously.

And, you know, I do my thing. And afterwards, he just kind of smiles. He goes, you Americans are funny. Like, he goes, no one would have come if there wasn't a great band or speaker, right? I go, well, not no one, but maybe a tenth of the people. And he says, you know, in India, when we hear there's going to be communion, people get so excited. when we hear there's gonna be communion, people get so excited. And I just thought, oh, God's looking down and he sees what we're doing. What would draw a crowd here versus what would draw a crowd here?

And it's just embarrassing. And at the time I was thinking, why would they rush to this? But that's because in my thinking, I was like, it's just a symbol. Well, that's not what they believed for 1,500 years. In fact, the same guy who put the pulpit in the center is the one that popularized, it's just a symbol, and moved it aside.

So if you grew up any in those first 1500 years, you would see this at the center and you would believe I'm about to commune with Almighty God. There's going to be some sort of fellowship between me and my flesh and blood with almighty God. I mean, think about it. This connection with God. This is like one of my favorite things to do on the earth, if not my favorite now, is getting together with other believers,

knowing we're united and coming before the body and blood of Christ and partaking and just going, God, I don't know what you're doing right now, but I can't believe I get to partake in this, this oneness with you. I mean, think about it. If I told you, hey, across the street right now, Jesus is over there

and he is willing to let you come and just touch his hand and leave. How many of you would really stay here for the rest of my message? Right? And so what is it saying about communion that we can actually fellowship with the body and blood of Jesus? But meanwhile, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, let me get in front of this. Listen to me. I've got a 40-minute sermon. And this needs to be central. I'm robbing people of the opportunity to coin an ear with the bread and the cup, because once we moved it aside, pretty soon

we kept adding things to our services to where we don't even have time for this. And the more I studied, the more I just had to repent. I'm going, God, I'm so sorry. I've been so many times. I mean, I just, I needed to go longer in my message. I just thought there was one more point. And I robbed people from communion with Christ, the flesh and blood of Jesus. In our churches, we, because I do smaller gatherings, we often will go around the room and say,

hey, is anyone in need in this room? Because we don't want to do this if someone's in need. The other week, like one of the second gal was like, I couldn't make rent this month. I go, how much are you short? 600 bucks. You guys, come on, come on, Give her the 600 bucks. Okay, next. What are your needs? Because according to 1 Corinthians, they weren't recognizing the needs

of the body. And I don't want to do that because I want to go in the right way. I want to make sure I recognize the body. I want to care for the least of these because we're about to go into the Holy of Holies. We're about to take the body and blood of Jesus. And we've had some powerful, powerful times. You guys have to understand, I mean, I did not start off this way thinking, okay, I need to revere anyone who is a brother or sister in Christ. I come from a background that is, we're not, you know, like first in our Ephesians 4 says, I therefore, as a prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. So there's one body,

one spirit. This is your call to the one hope that belongs to your call one lord one faith one baptism one god and father of all who is over all and through all and in all but he says i i'm urging you live in a manner worthy of the calling to which you've been called with all humility and gentleness this was not me eager to maintain the unity of the spirit. I was eager to prove that my theology was better than yours. I come from a background where it felt like every couple of weeks we were saying another group is no longer a part of us. And pretty soon they did that to me. And so you got to understand that's my heritage, that's my background. But the more I read the scriptures, man, the more afraid I got. You know, communion was a mystery.

Like it's a mystery. Like how does that bread really turn into something? Does a cup really turn into something? And how does it happen? When does it happen? And I'm just saying, I'm still, I believe it's a mystery and it's supposed to stay a mystery. And as the Bible says, we're supposed to steward the mysteries of God. And when we pray in our church, I'm like, we just humbly go, God, I don't know what you do. I just want you to do everything, whatever, however much that's supposed to turn into the flesh of Christ, then I want it.

However much that's supposed to turn in the blood of Christ, then I want it. Whenever it happens, I just want, I want to commune with Jesus. So Lord, only you know, you do what you're supposed to do. And so there's some mystery to that but you got to understand the idea in the early church was yes that's a mystery but it's supposed to point to the greater mystery of wait a second how did almighty God become flesh. That's the mystery. So all they knew of God was this being that they couldn't even look upon. They knew of Moses and walking into this fire

on top of the mountain with this thunderous voice and everyone terrified. They knew of the Holy of Holies and the Ark of the Covenant. You can't even touch it. You just die. You can't walk even touch it. You just die. You can't walk in this room. You just die.

And they knew of this God who just spoke and said, Earth, and the entire earth appears. And now you're telling me that all of that holy, holy, holy power went into the womb of a virgin? Did you know that in the early church, they used to refer to Mary as the ark? In many traditions, they still do. Because you're going, wait a second.

The presence of God that could only be in the ark of the covenant, now you're telling me all of that power is inside of this woman? How? How do you take the God of the universe, holy, holy, holy, and have him take the form of a fetus in a mother's womb? It was that mystery. You just stare and go, how almighty God. And that reverence.

What's your name? Alicia. Let's say that's not Alicia up there. Let's say that is the Virgin Mary. Okay? And let's say we lived's say that is the Virgin Mary. Okay? And let's say we lived in the time of the Virgin Mary. Let's say we had the knowledge that Almighty God is inside of her. How would you treat her?

Seriously, try to imagine. We were all going, wait a second, you're telling me God Almighty took the form of this infant and he's inside of your womb right now? How much honor would you show her? I don't care what she did to me. You could spit in my face. You could throw that flask at me, whatever. Kick me, I just go, that's okay, it's okay. Why? Because the creator's in there, right?

I am not going to mess with her. Quick question. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of God is inside of me? Do you believe that? That Almighty God resides in Francis Chan? Do I believe that about you? That God is inside of you? Then how would I treat you? I'm not saying we don't question theology. I don't

say we don't talk this through, but I'm saying the way we interact with one another, it's as though we don't believe that God dwells in you and that you deserve that reverence, dwells in you and that you deserve that reverence, that we should treat everyone who has the Spirit of God in them like we would treat the Virgin Mary and to say to a son of God, you're not welcome to our table. Again, listen, I am not saying to not be careful about who you allow to the table. I'm just saying we also have to be equally careful on who we disallow. As God the Father, you want his presence there.

What does God think when you refuse to invite certain ones of his children? I actually believe, and maybe I'm crazy, but I actually believe that something new is happening in the church right now. And that before too long, we could find ourselves all at the same table. I pray for that because I know that's what God wants. We all know that's what God wants. No matter what denomination you come from, there's a part of you that goes, this isn't right. And there's a younger generation that wishes there were no labels.

They don't want to be called Presbyterian or Baptist or Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. They don't want to be called evangelical or Protestant. It's kind of like when I work with the gangs. I used to work a lot with the gangs in San Francisco. And you see all these little kids trying to shoot each other. Why do you hate that gang over there and they'll say well because i heard his grandfather shot my auntie's you know uncle you don't even know these guys and you know they don't really

want to go out and live every day in fear they've taken on this fight that's been passed on for generations, and they don't even want to be a part of it. The same thing's going on in the church. There's so many people who just go, I don't like this. It doesn't make sense. All of these tables. It's embarrassing. When I try to explain to a Muslim, you know, why there's

so many tables and why there's so many. It's just embarrassing. And when they look in the media and they see us attacking each other, it just, it's embarrassing. When Jesus says, this is how they're going to believe that I'm the Messiah, is when you become perfectly one. And we're so far from that. But what I love is there's a new generation that's rising up, and I'm seeing a fire, a love. They're not trying to take center stage. They want to stay nameless and faceless. And they're actually wanting to lift up the body and blood of Christ alone. And they want this oneness that Christ prayed for. And it really feels like it's going to happen.

And I get it. Like, I'm no great authority or whatever, and who am I to challenge? But I'll just tell a story. Okay, so when my son was, like, nine, he was on this little league team, I'll just tell a story. Okay, so when my son was like nine, he was on this little league team. And he was up to bat.

It was like 12-12. His buddy just made it to first base. And I'm like holding my son. I'm just looking him in the eyes like, son, this is your time, buddy. Like, this is insane, okay? You're going to walk up to that plate as a boy. You're going to come back as a man, okay? Just make contact. Your buddy Malachi is on first base. He's the fastest kid out here. You just make contact. He'll make it all the way home. Well, meanwhile, everyone's still arguing about whether Malachi's safe on first.

And pretty soon, people start swearing at each other at the stands. Parents are yelling at each other. Coaches are yelling at each other. The parents of the kids on both, I mean, F-bombs left and right. It was getting intense. Then they started calling each other. They started fighting physically. One guy got his leg broken.

One dad. The police came. Paramedics came. I just froze. I'm just like, what is happening? These nine-year-olds, you guys, what's going on? And guys are going at it. It was the most humiliating display.

Meanwhile, you have kids that are crying. My dad just got beat up or whatever, weeping, talking about canceling the season. I always look back at that moment and I thought, okay, they don't know. There's no respect for me at a public little, they don't know, there's no respect for me at a public, they don't know who I am or whatever, you know, it's not like church league, where I can walk up, I am Francis Chan, and I demand, you know, it's just, I'm nobody, you know, so the whole time I'm like, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do, and I did nothing. And I always replay that day because I think I could have done something. Even though I didn't have the authority, I could have stopped that fight. I'm convinced in my mind I could have stopped that.

There was a way. I could have just ran on to the middle of the field where the pitcher was and just go, ah! And just like, hey, look at me, look at me. And then scream, you guys, let's knock it off. Just to divert the attention. I could have done it. All I had to do was make a fool of myself.

I had to roll around in the dirt, you know. And everyone would have stared at me until I got their attention. I go, come on, you guys, they're nine years old, right? Anyone could have done that, but I didn't do it. I don't want to miss it with this. This is so precious to God. Then I understand I'm not as theologically precise as some of you. I don't have the intellect or the power that some of you have, but I'm going to make some noise about this, and I'm going to scream about it, and I'll make a fool out of myself for this, because this is so sacred that somehow could we, could we be the generous? Because I believe even in this group, some of you guys are the brainiacs.

That's why you're here. You know, like, you know some of these truths, and you're able to articulate them even better. And we could make enough noise to where it's heard by the higher-ups. We could, and we could change something, knowing that it's a desire of God and knowing that it's a desire of this new generation that's going, okay, so it was one church for 1,000 years,

and then it was two or three for the next 500, and then it split into this? Why can't we go back? Aren't we tired of, I get it, there's things to talk through, but it's about this eagerness that Ephesians 4 says. I'm eager to maintain the unity, the spirit in the bond of peace. I'm eager with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with others in love. Because God did this. This was his plan. He wanted us to become one. But I will tell you, if you're pursuing unity with true believers, I'm not talking about,

I don't care about sin. I don't care about theology. I'm talking about people who hold onto those core fundamentals of the faith and are seeking to live a holy life and trust in the body and blood of Christ for their salvation. And you see the evidence of the Spirit in their lifestyles, no matter what denomination they come from, I'm going to be eager to break bread with them and to become one with them. And the more I've pursued that, the more I've seen God's blessing

on our ministries together when we work together. But I will also say it's come at a price. Because you would think, was it Alicia? Okay, you're no longer a virgin, you're Alicia again. I don't know what denomination you come from. Do you come from a denomination? denomination. Oh, yeah. I know you. Oh, my gosh. I thought you looked familiar. Okay. Okay. So, you already have great theology. Okay. I thought that earlier, but I'm like, there's no way. What would she be doing in Boise? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Wow, good to see you. Wow. You doing well? Okay, good, good, good. Okay, what's your name? Tony? Okay, do you come from a denomination? Four Square. Okay. All right. All right.

Now, actually, it was Jack Hayford who really changed me. We were on a board together. This is coming out of a, I came from a very cessationist background. I mean, Jack Hayford was, his name came up a lot in our school. Let's just say that. And then Jack and I ended up being in this inner city ministry together on a board together. And I remember one time he led the devotions for our gathering. And I'm thinking, okay, he's going to talk about some dream or some whatever, some feeling he has.

And he opens up the word and starts tearing apart the Hebrew where I'm like, what in the world? This is not what I was expecting. Blown away at his knowledge of the word of God. And we became friends. I saw his lifestyle, the way his love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. It blew my mind. And because when you only hear of people from your crowd and their perception of him it's so different when you meet them and they go I don't believe that I don't believe that what are they saying up and you start meeting but so I forget my point and I forgot your name. Tony.

I have a different denomination. Yeah, I don't know. Okay. Good for you. You know, so I seriously don't remember my point. I got all these great memories of Jack. And, oh, comes at a cost. That's it.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, comes at a cost. Name one more time. Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony. Okay, okay, here we go. Here we go. Okay, Tony. So, Tony, Tony, Tony. Okay, okay, here we go, here we go. Okay, Tony.

So here's the thing. Here's the cost. Let's say I have 1,000 friends, okay? 1,000 fans, 1,000 friends, 1,000 people that are part of the body with me. And I get to meet Tony, and I go, whoa, I see the Holy Spirit in you. Come be my friend.

Now how many friends will I have? 1,001? No. Probably like 701. Because by being friends with a four-square guy and calling him my brother, suddenly 300 of my other friends will say, well, then Francis, we're no longer your friends. This will happen. This is the world we live in.

And so at some point, you've got to decide if the Holy Spirit of God is inside of Tony, am I going to revere him and not dare separate from him, but call you brother, call you my family, try to become perfectly one with you so that we can together come to this table because I'm recognizing the body. And so if you want to leave me, leave me, but I'm not going to leave him. You've got to make some of these decisions of where your loyalty lies. And I get it.

There's a group of people that you've been with for years. They've been great to you. And you know that, gosh, if I cross this line into the four square, that's kind of weird. You can cross the line at four square areas and you're out. It's kind of weird. You can cross the line. Four square areas, and you're out.

But if I, you know that whatever that line is, it's going to be dangerous, and it's going to hurt you, and you've got to make that decision to go, no, what type of person am I? You know, if I see the Spirit of God in you, I'm going to revere you and go, I'm going to be very careful what I would say to you, just like I'd be very careful what I would say to the Virgin Mary. to the Virgin Mary, and how I treat you, humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with you in love, eager to maintain this unity, this spirit, and the bond of peace. You know, I prayed for this time tonight, and I was just saying, Lord, I don't want to come in here without faith. Because it's, you got to understand, a lot of you do understand, when you step onto a stage, there's like this flow that can divert you or sweep you or just cause you to drift away from seeing God.

In other words, it kind of drifts you into being a people pleaser. So suddenly you pray and you're thinking, okay, what does everyone need to hear? And you're not even looking at him and you're not speaking to him with the awe of, I can't believe I'm in your presence, Lord. I can't believe you hear me. I can't believe I'm just, I'm pure as snow because of Jesus. And you are this holy, holy, holy God. I just want to praise you and tell you how amazing you are.

Like sometimes I can't lock in on him. Because there's like this pressure. And sometimes you get into this thing and you lose sight of your connection with God and what could possibly happen and have faith. Like, do I believe that he could do more than I could ask or imagine? That one sermon through his word, just a few verses out of 1 Corinthians 10 and 11,

could actually transform your inner being so that you walk out of here with this new commitment towards unity and oneness and going, no, I want the body and blood of Christ central again. He must increase. I've got, I must, I must figure out a way to decrease. I want to have faith, seriously. And this is where we just kind of get into this speaking mode or whatever, rather than believing that Almighty God could transform us right now, like something literal would happen. See, some of us were raised in this information,

let's just pass information back and forth. That's not the way it always was. That's why Paul would get on his knees and pray that God would give them the spirit of wisdom and revelation and the knowledge of him. This is why he would pray, because according to the riches of wisdom and revelation and the knowledge of him. This is why he would pray, because according to the riches of your glory, that you would grant them strength from the Holy Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith,

that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength together with the saints to comprehend what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. He'd be on his knees just going, God, just make it happen in their inner being somehow, because the love of Christ is beyond knowledge. I can't just explain the love of Christ to them, and then they get it. It's beyond knowing. It's beyond just intellect. Something has to happen in their inner man, and then Christ lives there, and he's rooted there. So God, make that happen. He didn't preach for another 40 minutes, hoping that would make it happen.

He was on his knees saying, something mysterious has to happen, Lord, so that they would know the love of Christ. Because there are biblical scholars who don't know the love of Christ because it's something that's beyond this. And just study. It's a miracle from God when you realize, I'm loved by a holy God, and I know it at the core of my being. And I pray for that type of supernatural, invisible, unexplainable conviction

in the core of your being that you would see that God wants us to be one. And you will make noise and make a fool of yourself fighting for something that God wants so badly. So Preston, I know you're probably right there at the curtain. I'm so sorry. I didn't even see that until the... Yeah, the mic cuts off and you go 20 minutes over. It's just rigged.

All right, okay, okay. Water? Water? Don't I feel like the pagan we don't have communion for you guys for the next couple of days it's like oh man you can rework the schedule you're in charge

you better not have wine in there this is Calvary Chapel I've got a lot of questions I have a question about the communion thing. I want to come back to that. Because towards the end, you were talking about fellowshipping and sharing the stage with people. And I Googled bad things about Francis Chan or whatever

just to get a juicy quote. And I found, you've been accused of, quote, this is a quote, sharing the stage with false teachers who will spend eternity in hell. They mentioned Benny Hinn, Todd White, Mike Bickle, and several others. How do you respond to that? I know you get that a lot in light of kind of what you're saying. Okay, I'm not ready to speak on Benny. He kind of snuck up there for a couple minutes.

Okay. Anyways, I mean, I'm not saying, yeah, listen to that podcast. I explained the whole Benny story, okay, on his podcast, which thanks for doing that because it gave me a chance to just say, here's what I saw, here's what happened. I will speak for Mike Bickle for sure. This is one of the godliest men I've ever met.

This man studies the word of God like you would not believe, like no one I've ever met. Again, the amount of time he spends in the word and talking with his wife of whatever, 50 years. She's amazing. And she's telling stories about Mike and how they go on vacation every year. And she goes, it's the same routine.

He spends 10 hours reading commentaries and then we go out to dinner. Seriously. Every day during vacation. Like that's just all he loves. She talked about the early days. She goes, yeah, when we first got married, she goes, I did not know what I was in for. First of all, I knew he had a paralyzed brother that he had committed to taking care of.

But she goes, when we first got married, she goes, I lived with like 10 men. These were all guys that Mike picked up hitchhiking, shared the gospel, led them to the Lord and was discipling them. And they're living with him. This was our honeymoon. You know, like just going on over there. I don't know how many years. I'm guessing at least 40 years of marriage. And just talking to all the staff, the life, his commitment to holiness.

If you're going to call him a person that's going to hell, God help us. He has always been centered about the one thing. That's where I first met him was speaking at his one thing conference about the one thing that has to be first and foremost is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that you would just seek to dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of your life and just to gaze upon his beauty. And that's why he started this house of prayer that's been worshiping God 24-7 for over 20 years now. The worship has never stopped. And that's a guy that's going to hell, who trusts in the Lord Jesus for his salvation.

Dear, dear friend, I know him deeply. And I don't know, maybe you read something because someone said something about him and accused him of something, and he'd be the first to say he's not perfect. But he'd also say, gosh, I hate some of that kooky, charismatic, you know, he just, even though some see him as that guy, he's just like, again, so much of the exorbitant, like exaggerated. Sorry to go on. I love him. I love Jack Hayford. I hope you see that.

It's just, there's certain people you get to know when you go, no, I see the love of Christ in you. Todd White, another guy I'm getting to know, I don't know him as well, but what frustrates me about that whole situation is here's a guy who shares the gospel more than anyone else in this room, will go up to strangers wherever you go and lay out the gospel He had a radical conversion. Somehow he gets put on a stage, and pretty soon he's asked all these questions that he's not totally prepared to nuance just perfectly, like you and I or you could, you know? Like, you know, he doesn't know how to, and then suddenly it's like, yes, he makes mistakes. Let's follow him around. And follow me around with a camera. I am bound to say something wrong, you know?

But then we just highlight those things. And then we say, okay, we don't need you. We don't need you. We don't need. Yes, I admit that the Holy Spirit is in him, but I don't need him. I don't need her. I don't need her. And rather than, you know, what 1 Corinthians commands us is to say, no, I actually need him. He's a part of the body and he probably needs me.

And there's things that together we can figure out together. And so I forget who else you said on the list, but those are the three. Yeah. Well, Benny Hinn, yeah. I'm curious, is there anybody, and you don't need to name names, but a kind of person that you wouldn't share a stage with? Like, would it be more lifestyle kind of like behavioral things? Or if just, you know, that deep down, there's just not evidence that this person that has the Holy Spirit? Yeah, that's good, because someone even asked me that. They said, hey, okay, so my view is I take a complementarian view in Scripture. I don't think that's a secret, but most of my friends, almost all of them, are egalitarian. I don't know what you are anymore. I don't know what I am yet. Okay, okay. Okay, okay.

Change your view on hell on me. Anyways, you... But, you know, and I can work with them. And people say, well, then where do you draw the line? How come on certain sin issues, you know, you can't partner with people? And I go, well, it's because in the scriptures, it speaks so harshly against sexual sin and saying all those sins a man commits are outside of his body. The one who sins sexually sins against himself. We're members of Christ. You also have that list there in 1 Corinthians 5, where you don't even associate with someone who calls himself a brother, and yet it has this list of sins there.

There's, you know, 2 John that talks about them denying that Christ came in the flesh. And I don't see that anywhere with whether you're complementarian or egalitarian. complementarian or egalitarian. I can partner with them, but when it comes to some of these sin issues, I can't. And when it comes to core foundational truths, I can't. And here's the tricky part nowadays, is once you call yourself Baptist, you probably don't even know what that means. You probably don't even know what your core doctrine is. You might have a real relationship with Christ. You might have just prayed a prayer and thought that did it. I don't know until I talk to you.

It's just like when you see a Baptist church. You don't know what theology is in there until you meet the pastor because he's got a pulpit and he's his own pope. Whatever he preaches, that's what the church has to believe. He's got that. So we don't know. You have to get to know the person and go, okay, you're actually a Christian. And so I think that's the difficulty is people will accuse me, oh, man, he's friends with a Roman Catholic, or he calls this Roman Catholic a brother, and this Eastern Orthodox guy a brother, and this Presbyterian a brother, and this Pentecostal a brother. And I go, well, he is.

I've gotten to know him, and I've found out what do you believe about the cross and your own depravity? And tell me about your life. And what is the evidence the Holy Spirit is in your life? And then we talk to the people around you. And I go, okay, that's my brother. That's my sister. But you don't know that. We're almost doing the same thing. We did it before the world did it. Oh, you're Chinese. Oh, okay, so that means you're this, this, this, this. No, not every Chinese is that way. Okay, I drive great. And, you know, so there's just things where we just assume and we label.

And it's like, don't just put me there because of a skin color or don't put me there because I was raised under a certain background. There are true believers that are in all these denominations. So when I announced you to come into this conference, somebody made a comment. It was totally a joke. It was totally a joke. But I announced you to come into this conference, somebody made a comment. It was totally a joke. It was totally a joke, but I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

The person said, oh, is he going to wear his collar? Like, oh yeah, he's now Catholic or Orthodox, whatever. I'm sure you, when you talk about the Eucharist the way you do, I mean, can I, I mean, just honestly, like, would you, are you Catholic? Are you Orthodox? Or do you not even, I mean, where is your color? Underneath the theology roster?

Yeah. How do you respond to that when people say, are you going Catholic? Or what problems do you have with Catholic teaching? I do have some problems with Catholic teaching. I, if anything, I'm more intrigued at the Eastern Orthodox Church. For those who don't know, there was one church, one group of bishops that made all the decisions together. That's where we get the Council of Nicaea.

That's where we got this book. People are against the authority of these guys, but that's all we had was this council for 300 years. And it was only, it was through them. We trusted them to come up with this, you know? And so there was that one council. And then in 1054 is when, you know, on the West, the Bishop of Rome, who was kind of a first among equals,

changes unilaterally something in the nicene creed about it's called the filioque i don't know how you say it sure yeah yeah and uh filoquial no no filoquial that's a different you're thinking colloquial it's just like philippine i think i'm closer than you okay but it was the idea of where the Holy Spirit comes from. Is it the Father and Son or just the Father? And basically, well, basically, he changed it. And the rest of the council was like, wait, wait, you can't do that. And that's what caused this schism.

They called it the Great Schism in 1054. And now suddenly there's the East and the West. And then in the West, there was more of a changing with the Enlightenment period. And our thinking was different. And in the East, they were just trying to hold on to the same traditions over that thousand years. Meanwhile, in the West, there were new things that were added, such as priests not getting married and things like that. And then I go, I don't know, I don't know about that. And so if anything, I would stay on the East, not because I'm from the

East, but I just theologically, I would go, gosh, that makes more sense. Some of those things. All I know is I've learned some, and I've been surprised by some of my Catholic brothers, some, and I've been surprised by some of my Catholic brothers, the depth of thought. I mean, even things like, I used to think, oh yeah, Catholics, they think Mary's the mother of God. I didn't know where that originated from. It was everything I was talking to you about. It was this idea of, wait, you're telling me all of that went into her womb? I mean, theologians wrestled with this. In the early church before, there was such thing as Roman Catholicism. And they're just going, wait, so she wasn't, you're telling me God was in her womb and Mary was like the mother of God?

That's what they meant by that. Not like there was some superiority. But I didn't know that until I spoke to some of my... The tough thing with Roman Catholicism is you have this council that interpreted the scriptures, and so they've got their catechism,

but then you also have to interpret their catechism and go, well, what do you mean by that? You know, but my point is, I really, when I believe something now, I used to just think I get it because I've been to seminary. I've got great Bible software. I can go in my office and come out with truth.

I no longer believe that. I don't think truth comes from me sitting in my room and believing I'm more intellectual, I have a better decision-making process than most people, and I figured out the truth. I go to my elders, and I go, okay, what do you guys think of this? Let's figure this out together. And if I'm in agreement with them, I feel better, but that's not enough for me. Then I go, let's look at what the early church believed back when there was just one church. Because I can't just believe a council of guys in 2022 would know better than when the church was one. I mean, anyone who studied the Bible long enough knows that it's not by intellect alone that you can figure this out. The Holy Spirit has

something to do with this. The natural man can't understand. We can't discern these things. So then when you say your theology is better than mine, then what are you saying? That you're closer to the Holy Spirit than I am? Or are you saying you're more intellectual than I am and that's what's going to do it? Are you saying you're more humble than I am and that's what's going to do it? Are you saying you're more humble than I am so God's poured his grace upon you to understand truth better than me? See, I bet, I don't bet on myself anymore. I used to. I bet on myself if it's in agreement with the elders, I have a much better bet on that. And if I and the elders and the early

church are in agreement, I'm feeling pretty good about it. But I think that's an important thing to say about decision-making is, man, when would God reveal truth? Is it you in your office? Is it you in your office, because of your Bible software and intellect, your theology is superior to mine? Or is it a safer bet to go, you know, I think of Psalm 133, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell together in unity. Later on, he says that's where God commands his blessing. He blesses, he commands blessing on that unity. And there was a time when the church was one, a long time, a thousand years.

And so I've been spending the last couple of years looking more at what did they believe back then? That's where I learned all of this, where I'm like, how did I not know this? This is so basic. learned all of this where I'm like, how did I not know this? This is so basic. This is so simple. Look it up yourself. So all I'm saying is my theology has changed in that I'm not isolated figuring it out. I'm looking at what those early church fathers, not saying they're perfect. I'm just saying I would bet on them more than me or you. I know you kept talking about the Eucharist saying, you know, mystery, not quite sure how to work it out. And I was going to, I wrote down the question, but then you went there. I'm like, I still kind of want to ask it. I mean, of the kind of typical church views on the Eucharist, what transubstantiation,

consubstantiation, symbol, real presence or whatever. Like, is there one, when you look at the way the Eucharist has been understood by various branches, is there one you feel like is the closest to understanding that mystery? Or do you, I mean, it sounds like the symbol view, you're beyond that. There's something real here. Yes, yes, for sure, for sure. Would you still be uncomfortable with this is the literal flesh and blood of Jesus, like the Catholic teaching? I don't believe, I don't believe, I don't know.

I don't personally, if you're just saying, hey, I would lean more Eastern Orthodox than Roman Catholic. That would be real presence, not literal flesh and blood, but real presence. It's pretty close to it, if not literal. It's not that different. I just think there was an over defining of it, almost that came out of more of where the world was at that time

of the Enlightenment period. You come out of that age and now you're looking at a piece of bread and cup and, okay, I've got're looking at a piece of bread and cup, and, okay, I've got to define this a little better. And I don't know that we need to. And they believe in a real presence. And from my understanding, the Eastern Orthodox,

the Orthodox Church has believed in the real presence, but it's almost like the idea of transubstantiation without over-defining it and leaving it up to a mystery before God. And don't quote me on that. You know, study it yourself. I've read so many books about it. I'm reading again. I took a break after seminary, like, oh, because that was like the worst time of my life. It really was. It was the most arrogant I was. It was the most sinful, hypocritical I was. And I think we just started looking at this as a textbook and you don't have time to really know it, you know, know it like knowing, you know, it's like knowing the love of Christ. You can know, okay, God so loved the

word, but to know it. Yeah, anyways. You're reading again for the first time since seminary, that was like 30 years ago. A lot of books you got to catch up on. It did last five years, so it was like 25. All right, some audience questions. You ready for some audience questions? So these are voted on by all y'all. I did highlight one that was directed to Francis because the other ones came in before you started speaking. So the one directed at you says this, Francis Chan, how can Christians on all sides of the hell debate move the larger church to accept people with different views as brothers

and sisters in Christ? Wait, say that again. So there's different views on the doctrine of hell. Yes, we have different views now. You wrote the book on it. We wrote the book and then you changed it. You sold it. I sold it. I gave you all the money. You changed your view. You sold it. I sold it. I gave you all the money. It's those two pages. So how can Christians who disagree on hell move towards unity?

Because some people would say, like people have called me, like, oh, so you don't believe in the Bible anymore. I thought you were a Christian, and now you're not. I used to hold that. John Stott. in the Bible anymore. You know, I thought you were a Christian and now you're not. I used to hold that of John Stott. When I was in seminary, I'll never forget, you know, John Stott, this major evangelical scholar and just theologically very conservative. But I remember in seminary hearing that he believed in an annihilation view of hell. And I was resting, I was like, oh my gosh, I thought he was a Christian. And then I went to like the once saved, all he saved, did he lose

his salvation? Well, no, he must never have been saved before because that's what I was told. And really, like he was just never a Christian. So some people would, if you don't hold to a certain particular view of hell, like we can't even be unified. Like how would you speak to that? Yeah. And I remember when we were studying that, that's when we were kind of surprised how many people held to annihilation. You'd remember all the names. I don't remember any of them.

But I remember you saying, gosh, did you know this guy and this guy? And I'm like, really? That's weird. I mean, we have to. This is the hard thing is deciding what is a foundational truth. Yeah. You know, when the scriptures talk about the gospel itself, and, you know, he, in 1 Corinthians, you know, he goes,

I'm just reminding you what is of first importance, right? Was that 15? 1 Corinthians 15, 3. Okay. So, for I deliver to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, that he appeared to Cephas and then 12. Then he appeared

to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James. Okay, so he says, here's, he goes, I deliver to you the things that are of first importance. So there are things that are primary and secondary and tertiary. And here he's labeling the, and it's difficult. You know, that's why the creeds were written by that whole council. So this is what we believe. And these seem to be the central ideas, the primary things that early church said, you know what, this is what we believe, this is what we'll put on paper. And so we still hold to

those things. So if something's not, I mean, first of all, scripture is first and foremost. I mean, first of all, Scripture is first and foremost. And here he's naming what's primary. Paul says, I don't go beyond what's written. And so I want to be very careful. Could a person have a different view of hell and be my brother or sister? I don't see in Scripture that that is something that should separate us. Yeah. Good. Yeah. I agree. All right. This question, this is a really pastoral question. I get this a lot. I've wrestled with this a lot. How do you balance the line between working to

better the church you're a member of? Okay, so maybe your church and you see some things that can grow in, so you stick it out at that church versus working to find another church that you're more aligned with. Like, can you pastor us through when do we leave a church to be part of another church? Because I think I, you, most of us are like nervous about the church hopping. Like, we don't want to just hop around to find a church that we agree with everything. At the same time, there are certain times when you're just in a church and you just find yourself just so not aligned that it's just hard to be effective there. Yeah. Yeah. First, let me repent, confess and repent.

I've not done this well. confess and repent, I've not done this well. I wish I could go back and change things I've done and said. I too easily separated in my arrogance thinking, you guys don't get it. And I apologize, I've hurt the body of Christ. Two thoughts I have. One, you know, the Bible says, obey your leaders, Hebrews 13, and submit to them for the keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to

give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. You know, it's so important that we come under the elders. And it's crazy, like in our church, we have a plurality of elders. And everyone say, well, these are godly men. These are 1 Timothy 3 men. These are Titus men. And then until we confront you on a sin. And then suddenly it's like, I think you guys are off. And I'm like, wait, you think all of us together who have wept over you, prayed for you, together, you're going to bet on yourself around these godly men who have loved you and served you. Like, are you sure you want to do this?

who have loved you and served you, like, are you sure you want to do this? But if you don't trust our collective wisdom, then you do need to find another group of elders that you can come under and support. Like, I don't want someone there who doesn't trust this group of leaders and will come under them. And so if you're in a church where you go, I don't see these, you may be causing more division than you realize just being there and talking about them. Because people can tell. And you try to bite your tongue, but in your heart, you really don't look up to this group. I don't know. I just say, be careful with that. And maybe that's the time.

I don't know. But the second thing I want to add to that is this. It is crazy how quickly we separate and we jump from church to church. And my belief is we can separate easily because we don't love very deeply. In other words, if my wife, if I go home today and she's like, honey, I'm going to leave you. I just think we'll both be happier. I'm going to take three kids. You can take four. You can have first pick, whatever. It'll just be better. It'll just be easier. There's no way on earth it'll be easier. That would drive me nuts. I am so in love with her. There's no way. I don't care what the issue is. It's not ever going to be easier. I can't be separated from three of my kids. I can't be separated from you.

I can't just go on in life because our family is so united and so together that this whole idea of, well, let's just split and go our separate ways and we'll be better off. We won't be better off because we are so in love

with each other. Now, why is it that churches can separate so easily? Because the depth of relationship isn't there. And so it's easiest for us to jump from church to church because you're not really in love with them. You're not pursuing that perfect oneness that Christ called us to. These are the bigger things is our pride of, you know, believing we're right and not coming under the leadership of the church. But secondly, it's even greater than that,

our lack of love for one another that we could separate so easily. The number one reason I hear anecdotally why people love this church or don't like this church or really are excited. They found this church is the deep authentic sense of belonging. They have authentic relationships. They, they, they, they feel like they belong when they don't show up to a gathering they're missed. They know they're gone and don't, where were you? And are you coming next week? I need to see like that deep sense of rich

belonging. I think it's, is so lacking. And at least again, in my anecdotal experience, when I hear people reach out and I don't think I could stay at this church or I want to maybe change churches, it's that sense of belonging. I think that's new too. Yeah. This belonging and this oneness and this depth of relationship, which praise God for that.

I think back in the day, you know, when I was in my heyday, you know, it was about that excellent preaching or excellent music, excellent childcare, you know, different things that drew you to a place. But I couldn't, at that time, I was trying to think, do I, because I know of churches that were great at missions, great at outreaches, great at expositional preaching, great at worship, great at child care, but I tried to think, do I know of a church that's known for their love for one another? And at that time, I couldn't name one. You know, I mean, think back 20 years, and what was the church of love? You know, it just wasn't a big deal to us back then.

Do you think that drew people? You didn't need it back then to draw people, unfortunately. Do you think now that wouldn't, like now people are so hungry for belonging that the great show and everything in child care isn't going to be as much of a draw as it used to be? Yeah, I think so. I think it's just like, I think more and more people are done with it and this next generation, I think because we've gotten so detached, you know, with our phones and gadgets now, we all know we're missing something. And it's that, that deepness, that oneness, that, that true connection that we're created for. I mean, even back in the day, I hardly heard anyone talk about their intimacy with Jesus, the person. It was like a list of things.

Oh, he's a good guy. She's a good guy. But do they love him? Are they just like, oh, I can't get enough of him. I can't believe I was creating his image so that he and I could be perfectly one, and I'm alone with him in my room. And it's just like Jesus and I, like that's starting to grow. People longing for a deep oneness with Christ and a deep oneness with people,

which I think is a direct answer to prayer. This next question got voted up a ton, so a lot of people are going through this, and yeah, when I talk to people, I know this is very widespread. How can we have productive conversations with family or close friends who believe we're on a slippery slope because of our views on secondary issues? I believe that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of unity. I would say you always have to push it back to the primary. You know, when people are talking about the secondary, you go back to, what was your time with the Lord like this morning? Because I don't know about you, but I sit there and I think about who he is before I even pray. And I think about this throne in heaven with the lightning, the thunder, the fire, the angels screaming out his holiness. I think about this God that Isaiah was just like,

I'm dead. And then I come before him and I think about how would I approach that God? And then to think about, wait a second, you and all your majesty, you sent your son? Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love. He predestined us for adoption as sons in Christ Jesus. And I'm just like, oh God, I can't believe I'm in your presence. And I'm just like, who am I that you would love me like this? And I just worship. And I'm just like, God, blessed be your name. Blessed be your name. What was your time with the Lord like this morning? You know, like, you know, when I get there and I recognize that his thoughts are not my thoughts,

his ways are so far higher than my ways. I'm just so happy to be in him. And if we were both just on our knees before the throne right now, could you imagine that? You know, you know, hey, hey, Democrat, could you imagine if we were both on our knees before the throne? Let's just try to imagine that together. What would we feel? And could you imagine if you saw the lamb show up right then? And could you imagine if you saw the lamb show up right then? What would you feel like to bring it back to the primary things together?

Because if we are flat on our faces before God and we really understand what he did and how much that God wants us to become one. I don't think we'd let this issue divide us, but we don't take the time to pray and fear him and just get into his presence and tremble before him together. But let's do that first and then let's talk. In fact, one of our pastors recently had to counsel a couple of gals who were fighting. Surprise. And he said, but the first thing he did, he goes, before we talk, you know, he just walked them through scripture.

I want you to go in that room and I want you to imagine being before the throne and just worship him. And you go in that room over there, and then we'll talk in half an hour. And it changed the whole trajectory of that talk. That's it. All right. One more question. One more question. Francis, I am 100% with you on your communion views. So you have one convert here tonight. Good job. Okay. My church has a thousand people in a service. Is it even possible to engage in true communion in this setting? And if so,

how do we do that? I do. I just led a, it was cool. I was just in South Africa a couple of days ago and I was with a bunch of pastors from different denominations and gave a talk similar to this. It was probably better over there. I don't know. I didn't have a clock. And we had an amazing time once the word of God was expounded upon, and we really took time to look at these passages, and there was a reverence.

There was a fear of, look, we better confess any not recognizing of the body in this room. I mean, it was supposed to be a two-hour gathering. These are all like lead pastors. It ended up going four hours, and no one wanted to leave the room. I actually regret closing it off, because I think God wasn't done with us.

Like, it was so, so powerful. But I do believe it's possible, especially if we read the word of God and explain the warnings, like don't do this casually. But maybe like what you're, maybe they're referring to, well, can you go to all those thousand people and make sure all the needs are taken care of? That was part of my move towards a smaller gathering is so that we can all use our spiritual gifts. We're all supposed to have these supernatural gifts for one another, and everyone's supposed to use it for the common good.

And I just don't know how we could do it in a room like this. And that there was supposed to be this depth of relationship that would cause people to be blown away at the oneness. And I didn't know how to do it in a group like this. So it wasn't like an absolute structure thing, because after a while, people were saying, oh, Francis Chan, he's the house church guy. I'm like, don't call me that. I don't want to be the house church guy. I'll be the holiness of God guy. I'll be the, you know, whatever. If you want to call me the Eucharist

guy, I'm happy to be the Eucharist guy. If I could be a voice in bringing us back to a reverence and a sacredness at the table and a unity at the table, I would give my life for that, but not for a house church. So the smaller gathering was just my way of saying, look, we've got to obey these commands, and I don't know how else to do it, to love to that extent, and know you, and to be able to confront you on your sin, and encourage you when you're, you know, discouraged, you know, like scripture says, encourage the faint-hearted, but admonish the unruly. You can't do that from a pulpit, because you'll try to admonish, and it's a faint-hearted that'll just get beat up by it. And you can't encourage the faint-hearted

because it's the unruly that go, yeah, see, I'm forgiven. And I need to know the people I'm ministering to. And so to figure that out, we had to go smaller. And so, yes, I do believe it can happen. But I would also say, gosh, to care for all the needs in a situation like this, it requires some sort of smaller fellowship, I think. I know there's systems and stuff. But we're also good at lying that unless you really spend a lot of time with people and really seek to become like a family where there's no hiding. And I just don't know how we can get there. Can you thank Francis for being here tonight? this show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.