Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1007: #1007 - Should Non-Pastors and Teachers Learn Greek and Hebrew? Ryan Martin and Courtney Trotter

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

Ryan is a teacher, theologian, and the founder of Kairos Classroom. He received his MDiv from Beeson Divinity School and taught Theology and Biblical Studies at the Christian Bilingual University of Congo. Courtney received her MDiv from Beeson Divinity School where she received the William M. Todd Award for Biblical Languages.  Kairos Classroom is a place where people can learn the original languages of Scripture through live, online instruction at an affordable price.  –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/theology –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

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in Iran community for a minimum of five bucks a month by going to patreon.com forward slash Theology in Iran. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw community for a minimum of five bucks a month by going to patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw. The link is in the show notes. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in Raw. My two guests today are Ryan Martin and Courtney Trotter. Ryan is the founder and lead instructor at Kairos Classroom, and Courtney is a lead instructor at Kairos Classroom as well. So Kairos Classroom. And Courtney is a lead instructor at Kairos Classroom as well. So Kairos Classroom is an online learning platform where you can learn the biblical languages from live teachers. You can be in an actual classroom, not just watch a pre-recorded video, but actually be interacting with somebody who knows the original languages. I love this idea. I think it's daring because I thought that, oh, people are going to pay money

to sign up and learn Greek and Hebrew. I could hear a lot of people being, I don't know if this is the best business model. Is there a lot of people that are going to be interested in this? But Ryan, I think, just stepped out and said, you know what? I think this is important. So I'm going to create this learning platform. And they have just been doing a fantastic, fantastic job. I've promoted them on the podcast before. This is the first time we actually sat down and had a lengthy conversation. And I just love these two leaders. They're fantastic. Their hearts are gold. And they're just have a huge heart for Christians, not just pastors and teachers, but the average everyday Christian having an opportunity to learn Greek and Hebrew. So please welcome to the show for the first time, Ryan and Courtney.

Thanks so much, guys, for coming on the show. You guys have a great video set up. Is this because you guys do a lot of video stuff? You have really good equipment over there? Because you look like movie stars with the background and everything. That's awesome, man. Yeah, I mean, this is our classroom. This is where our students see when they click on the link and jump into class. We want it to feel cozy and homey for them. Like they really are a

part of something cool. You look almost like 3D, like you're coming out of the screen. Really good video equipment. Well, we are real people. Although I will say that our business partner, Jesse, one of our business partners is really the one to kind of attribute some of these things to because it looks fancy, but it's really kind of a home setup. It's not as fancy as a lot of people have it. Mine's very home setup. I wanted to make sure to get a really good mic. So I spent...

I said, what's the best podcasting mic? So I did that. And then I had an audio guy come to my... This is just my basement. He says, all the books and everything add like a natural buffer for the sound. And the mic doesn't pick up a lot of outside noise. So he goes, you actually have a decent sound room, you know, even though I have no foam anywhere or anything, you know. Yeah.

Well, hey, I want to have you on the show because you guys are doing something that is dependent upon people wanting to learn the original languages in their spare time maybe. And yeah, you guys are doing really well and just doing great, great work. So can you, whoever wants to start, like I would love to know why you personally fell in love with studying the Bible in the original languages. Because that's something most people don't even learn the languages in seminary. They kind of do it because they have to, right? You guys enjoy, I'm going to assume you actually enjoy reading Greek and Hebrew. Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing what you're doing. So where did that come from?

How did you guys get that kind of passion? Yeah, I had no exposure to the biblical languages before seminary. So, it was one of the parts of the seminary curriculum that I was the most excited about. I'd done a little bit of language stuff before, but man, I fell in love with it pretty quick. I loved it. I had great teachers at Beeson Divinity School and really just loved the way that it opened up the text for different types of questions and to really know it and be one step closer to it in a way that you really, really can't when you're just reading in English. Did you take, I mean, both Greek and Hebrew and did you prefer one over the other in your spare time? Yeah, Greek for me, but I think Courtney will probably answer differently.

Okay. Yeah, Courtney, because you guys went to Beeson together. Is that right? Is that how you first met? We actually didn't meet at Beeson. We were kind of like ships there at the same time, but our paths didn't cross. And Ryan's like, oh, I'm sure we had a conversation at some point. And I was like, Ryan, I'm that kind of person who remembers every conversation I tend to have with people. We didn't. But we got put together after Beeson for this kind of business venture because of our connections at Beeson. So yeah, that's how we got connected for the business. In terms of my interest in languages, they didn't just start in seminary. I grew up, my dad is from Brazil, so I kind of grew up having exposure to another language

in the home early on. And whenever like I went to visit my family for the first time in Brazil, I realized that like, wow, this is a whole new world. And the gateway into this world is the language. And so because of that, like in high school and everything, I just wanted to study foreign languages as much as possible. And I did my undergrad in languages as well. And so by the time I got to Beeson, that was also the part of the curriculum I was most excited about because I just always saw it as a gateway into the world of the people that you wanted to get to know. And in this case, it was the biblical authors themselves. So it was always very exciting going through language classes with that kind of view in mind. And your bent is towards Hebrew, right?

I mean, not that you don't like Greek, but no shade on Corne Greek, but Courtney's Greek is great, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No shade on Greek. Hebrew is so weird or the old Testament in general just has all these weird things happening. So I was just found the questions there to be more intriguing, which is why I leaned towards Hebrew. Cause he, yeah. So I did Greek and Hebrew and, and, um, I did Greek and undergrad and then Greek and Hebrew in, I did Greek in undergrad and then Greek and Hebrew in my MDiv. And then, you know, during my PhD, like I was in a program where you don't take classes, but you, you just figure out, you teach yourself what you need to learn. And I did a lot of research in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So that, I feel like that was when my Hebrew really became the best that it could have been reading, you know,

an unpointed Hebrew in the Dead Sea Scrolls. And, you know, there's translations available. So, I mean, you're kind of fumbling your way through. But for how many years I spent in Hebrew, it's not easy. It is such a – I think because for English speakers or anybody whose original tongue is a Latin language, like just the right to left, the kind of Eastern way of the way their language works is just, just doesn't come natural. How did you get over that? The second I put, I put my foot off the gas on Hebrew, I just ended up losing it. Like I said,

I mean, I wouldn't say I totally lost it, but I mean, it's, if I open up the Hebrew text, I mean, I have to like, I need a lexicon, like right next to me on pretty much every word, you know, do you just keep reading it over and over. How did you get it to where you could actually teach Hebrew? Yeah. So, so I would say like my Greek is, was even coming out of seminary much better than my Hebrew because of my link, my like background in Latin and all the other Latin languages and Greek kind of syntax kind of works like Latin and stuff like that. Um, but I think that what one of my professors in seminary really got us used to doing was like putting a sheet of paper over and below the vowel pointing.

So we could just get used to like reading the language and kind of anticipating the vowel pointing. And so that's something I really emphasize to all my students today is like kind of figuring out which vowel pointing is important and which ones is only for pronunciation. Because if you do that, then you're like ignoring most of what's happening in your Hebrew Bible and you're able to just look and read the text. So for those who don't know Hebrew, like basically Hebrew doesn't have any like vowels, but they, in biblical Hebrew, they added these points to kind of signify a vowel, but like a native Hebrew speaker doesn't need vowels to just know what vowel-ish thing, you know, is going on with the word. It's trippy. I mean,

when I first heard that, when I, you know, Hebrew 101, I'm like, wait a minute, y'all got no vowels in? Like, how do you read that? You just do, you just figure it out. You know, um, that's one of the many things about the language is crazy. Ryan. So you, you, did you start like on your own Kairos classroom? Was that your brainchild? And then tell, tell me about how that got started. Yeah,

of course. So, you know, you, what you mentioned about like, wow, like what would people be into this? Yeah.

Are there, you know, how could this actually work as a business model? Are there really people out there that want to learn the biblical languages? Well, that would have been my assumption as well. And that's the assumption of so many people that I talked to. I just, as I, as I've traveled around the world and been in a lot of different contexts and just talked with a lot of theologically interested lay people over the years, I just keep on running into people that want to learn Greek and have

learned on their own or like got on YouTube and just kind of watch stuff or bought a textbook. And like what usually happens is they buy a textbook and get three chapters in and then realize like, oh, this is this is real stuff and then go on to something else. So I think the idea for Kairos comes from like, what if we were to help those kinds of people do that? And sure, we do. We do have students that, you know, learned in seminary and forgot or were supposed to learn in seminary but never really did, those kind of folks. But more than half of our students are just theologically, biblically interested Christians who want another avenue for Bible study, for spiritual formation. So, yeah, I've been surprised over the years, and I'm really happy to be able to have something that kind of helps them in that kind of self-guided, self-motivated process. So that was my next question, is your student demographics.

So you're saying at least half are not like full-time pastors, teachers, like professional Christians? I hate saying that, but we're just normal Christians. I like that. Just normal people that love Jesus. Yeah, more than half. Wow. Yeah, they're engineers, they're doctors, they're teachers, they're parents, you know, they've come at all ranges

of the spectrum. They just really are excited about learning Bible. They're Bible nerds, our favorite kind of people. And do they, do they take like one class or do they try to get as much as they can? Cause I, as you know, like one semester, one class of the language is enough to just make you discouraged. Oh, sure. The most exciting and just encouraging thing throughout this whole process has been, I figured, just human nature, you know, myself, that a lot of people would start and a few people would finish. That was just kind of my assumptions going on. But I mean, we're finding about half, about half finish, which is amazing. Which, how many?

Far more than half keep going after the first one. Yeah, four classes total in like Greek one through four, Hebrew one through four. That's just the basic grammar and syntax class. We've started teaching in Greek exegesis classes that are only open to students that have either finished Greek 4 with us or have learned Greek in another seminary university setting. Like, basically, only open to people to where we say, like, hey, that's an aorist participle. They're like, I know what that is. We've gone through Ephesians and Mark.

We're offering a class in 1 John in the fall, you know, only for those students. So, yeah, about four classes that go through, like, the normal grammar syntax sequence. Yeah, about four classes that go through the normal grammar syntax sequence. I feel like that's, for me at least, it wasn't the initial grammar and syntax classes when it really clicked. It's when you take those tools, which you need, that's a foundation. But then when you go to an actual book, right, you start just working your way through and seeing how the language works itself out in real in real time in the actual text of scripture. Like just even just, just reading without thinking too hard, just kind of reading,

even if there's a few words you don't know, but like, you know, an easy book, first John or John or something. And you just, just get, just keep familiarizing yourself with the language. I feel like that's when it really started to come alive.

Like just reading through a grammar. And I did, I, you know, we worked our way through Dan Wallace's's 700 page advanced or whatever and all the different you know all the different datives and genitives and the dative of death or whatever you're like there's so many categories we had a professor that used to say there's there's somebody writing a dissertation sitting in a library right now making up a new kind of genitive.

But to me, that wasn't exciting. I was like, okay, I need to know this stuff for sure. But it was taking it to Philippians and working. And then when you see something like, oh, there's nuances here that just cannot come out in English. There's no way to capture this nuance, this emphasis in English. That's true of any language, right? I mean, you can translate most languages in another language, but there's always going to be those little nuances. My wife is... French was her first language. She was born and raised in France. And there's things that she'll say a phrase like, what does that mean? She's

kind of like, it kind of means this, I guess. But there's no way to like, I can't fully explain it. You'd have to know the French culture, even expressions and the tone. And it's just, it's hard to fully communicate. Anyway, so when did you start Kairos? And what's it been like for the few years you've been doing it? Yeah. So it started kind of the height of the first lockdown, the pandemic. So this was in early, early 2020. And it was just me way over my head.

I mean, it was fun. We were learning Greek, but you know, I have no idea how to run a business. I need, you know, the Lord, the Lord has brought wonderful people like, like Courtney and our colleague, Jesse, that she mentioned into my life yeah so it was just me until it was it was summer of the next year so july of 2021 was when we relaunched we used to be called kairos greek okay so if you've seen stuff a long time ago called kairos greek that's that's still us we kind of relaunched the kairos classroom added hebrew added these more advanced like exegesis type classes that you've been talking about uh so, we're over a year now kind of in our current iteration, and we've already had well over 100 people take a Greek or Hebrew class.

Really? Really, really thankful for the way that the Lord has blessed us by bringing us students. And are you getting more and more interest or do you feel like it keeps growing? Yeah, it really has been surprising to see it keep growing. You know, you kind of hit those peaks and lulls. But recently, we've just seen kind of consistent study interest. And I think it's just like, you know, it takes a year to kind of get the word out for people to see you. And they're like, put that on their back burner and come back and visit you in like three months and maybe I'll start then.

But I also think in general, there's just kind of this craving and hunger for people who are looking for theology podcasts like yours or other podcasts. There's so many people doing online courses in some form or fashion within their area of expertise. And for some people, they're like, I want to learn the Greek and Hebrew. So this is just something that people are craving kind of in this moment. How is it different than you mentioned? That was another question I wanted to ask. How is it different than you mentioned? That was another question I wanted to ask. It seems like there's just a growing number of online theological training options.

Are there other online platforms that do the languages in particular? And how is Kairos different than those, if there is any? Yeah, there are lots of ways to learn online. I think what we wanted to do that is somewhat unique is to have the entire focus of our school be on live, real-time instruction where students are walking together. You're in a class with other Greek or Hebrew learners that are at your same level, and you're encouraging one another, asking questions. I can't tell you how many times I'll have a student ask a question, and another student's like, yeah, I was thinking that same thing. I just didn't know how

to articulate it. I mean, real learning happens in community, I think, or I should say the best learning happens in community. And there really is a sense of just togetherness that we have. Our students not only come from all over the world, but all different theological traditions and different like walks of life and ages and political leanings. And I just, sometimes I look out at that. I look out, I look at my screen and all the little heads in the little boxes and think this has got to be the only thing in the world that would bring these people together in this moment. So yeah, I think that's, what's unique. And that's probably what is the most different

in the way that we've, we've we've done things from other options of learning language so it's not just like a pre-recorded thing you listen to i mean this is live which with the languages i mean with anything obviously live teaching is the best but i would i would assume with the languages it's got to be even more so is that would you say that from an educational standpoint it's it's got to be even more so. Would you say that from an educational standpoint, it's even more necessary to have that kind of live interaction? Yeah, I would think so. Because there's always going to be these questions that you have. And if it's a pre-recorded video course, they may not anticipate that student's particular question or the way that they want to articulate it or just kind of the expertise. One thing we love to tell our students is that you are an expert. You might not be an expert in Greek or Hebrew yet,

but you're an expert in your field. You have a body of knowledge that you're working from. And so a lot of their questions are geared from this current body of knowledge that they already have. And if you're working from a video learning course, it doesn't allow that adaptability for people's individual learning styles. And like I said, the knowledge that they're already coming in with. So I feel like it gives us that ability to adapt and tailor our educational emphases to what the students in that class in that moment really need. So, okay, here's the question I really want to ask you guys. We'll start with Courtney. Why should somebody learn the biblical languages? And again, I'm thinking of the person that's like, I mean, obviously if you're a teacher, preacher, there's no shade on those who don't know yet.

But here's an opportunity in front of you to fill that gap. But a good case can be made for people, you know, teaching the Bible to know, have some familiarity with the languages. But for, again, the average Christian, what's your case that they should think about learning the languages? Yeah. So there's two things I usually say, whenever somebody asks me this question, they're kind of my little pithy sayings. One is from John Walton, who says that the Bible was written for us, but not to us. And so there is this gap of culture and language and taking a step further in the language helps you kind of step in the ancient Near East a little bit, a little bit more than you probably would

have if you're just looking at it in English. And then the second thing I tend to say is the Bible is beautiful and you're able to pick up on some of these nuances in language in your English translation. But sometimes because our English words are not one for one equivalent for these Hebrew words, these Greek words, you're not able to see just the beauty of the way that these authors are being so careful and intentional with their language. And it's exciting whenever you discover it for the first time. Like, yes, a commentator could draw this out for you. But whenever you're able to see it on the page for yourself, it just brings you to this place of awe and wonder at the beauty of the scripture that lays before us. So that tends to get me excited. I like that second point. That's because the first

point, I feel like that's often what people say. I said it earlier, you know, like you pick up on but the beauty part, that's good. Ryan, you got anything to add to that or? Man, I got nothing to add to that. I'm like goosebumps here. No, that is it. I mean, I'll speak personally and say, for me, somebody who grew up in the church, who's been, I mean, large chunks of the New Testament, I feel like I have memorized, not because I've sat down and tried to do it, just because I've, you know, sat in the pew my whole life and heard, you know, the Sermon on the Mount read over and over again. And it's easy for me and this just might be i don't know adhd tendencies or something i have a tendency when i know something well in english it's almost like my brain checks out yeah and what i noticed real on like real early on

learning learning greek and hebrew was that that kind of forced slowdown um made me pay attention at a level that maybe i could in english, uh, but, but wasn't. And of course, I mean, of course, there's things you can't see in the English. And of course, I mean, as we look at different English translations and you're just like, huh, how did these people end up with this? And these, these translators end up with this. Well, when you know the Greek, when you know the Hebrew, you can say, ah, I see, I see these interpretive things. So like, we know, like, it's not that there's, that there's not huge things to be seen that we can't see in English, but even, even just slowing down and paying attention in a way that this is hard otherwise is what's huge for me.

And that's one of the reasons I got addicted to it. Just wanted to, wanted to keep reading and reading and reading. I was going to say the exact same thing. I was going to add that point. Like I've noticed when I read in Greek, it slows you down. You start seeing things like, oh, but then you go to your English like, oh, it was there all along. It's just like you said, sometimes you just get familiar and you just get, you just get lazy. And so more than just picking up nuances that aren't there in English, it just forces you to really marinate. Cause I find myself, I'll try to do that when reading English. And I just, I just keep my, I just want to go faster to do that when reading English and I just I just keep my I just want to go faster because I'm like and Paul the apostle okay yeah you know like it's

just I'm getting so familiar with it I just I just naturally just keep going faster and faster you know but then you look at the Greek you're like I don't know what half these words are I gotta like look them up and another here's another thing to add too. And this is something I've often said, because I said, look, let's be realistic. Even two, three years of Greek, even that you're going to start scratching the surface. I remember, let's see, I was a senior year in college, started learning Greek, took two years, and then three years in seminary, and then just kept reading, reading, reading. But when I got to my PhD program, they cracked open Philo, first century Jewish philosopher. I'm like, all right, let's start reading.

I'm like, I can't read this. And they're like, why not? I'm like, I don't know why. I can't read this. And like, welcome to real Greek, you know, like this is classical Greek. And so I'm like, oh, my gosh, like it's got a little discouraging that, man, like this is classical, classical Greek. And so I'm like, oh my gosh, like it's, it got a little discouraging that man, he, all these years of Koine Greek and it's, it's still, it's a tough language, but here's to me, one of the biggest payoffs is as you know,

most of the best commentaries on the Bible are dealing with the original languages. commentaries on the Bible are dealing with the original languages. So until you have some knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew texts, you miss out on following the logic of most of the top. I mean, there's a few top-notch commentaries that don't require, but even those are typically, they're going to be on the lighter side. They might be written by great scholars, but some of the new, was it exegetical commentary on the new Testament is really good, or even the new international commentary for sure. The international critical commentary is nothing but the inner, you know, the, the Greek text. Um, but these are where the most rich and like thorough conversations are happening on tough passages. Like first Timothy two is one I've been

working through and there's all kinds of exegetical hurdles there. An English only commentary might spend a page on that passage where like I just got my I. Howard Marshall ICC on the pastoral epistles and it's like 20 pages of small print just on 1 Timothy 2, 12 to 15. But like if you do run it,

really go really, really deep and say, okay, I want to know what are all the scholarly options here? What are the issues? It's going to be hard to follow. So those commentaries, unless you have some knowledge of the Greek text, do you, is that another, have you thought about that? Is that, would you agree with that? Or am I overselling it? Yeah, I would say actually a lot of our students, like the non-ministerial students, that that's the reason why they want to get into it. It's because they kind of started reading some commentaries, but they realize that they're missing out on like what the significance is between like a nominative and a genitive is or what the difference is between some of those Hebrew verb stems. Like, why is it important that they're even mentioning that to me?

they're even mentioning that to me. And so I would say that's actually just the accessibility of some of these resources that are available and that are out there, but they're still not accessible because just some of these grammatical terms are not familiar with them. Courtney, do you have any favorite passage or book or verse or section in the Hebrew Bible that you feel like has been, like when you first started really getting to know Hebrew, like it was really kind of opened up to you. They're like, oh man, this, I see this passage in whole new light now, or I put it on the spot there. So if you're like, I need to think about it. There are so many, there are so many, but I would say there's ones that I give to my students that in the first couple of weeks of Hebrew that I think really inspire them. But the one that really inspired me first was when I was looking at Jeremiah 23, 5 and 6, where you have this righteous branch of David who's going to come, this righteous king who

will come and will be a good shepherd. Right. And then you get down to the end of this passage and his name is going to be called Yahweh is our righteousness in Hebrew. And so what you see is that David is somehow going to also be Yahweh. And that moment for me really just sent me on fire thinking like, wow, the Trinity is right there in Jeremiah 23, 5 and 6, that David is somehow Yahweh. And this is a mystery that was, as Paul says, was concealed, but then revealed in Jesus Christ as to how it becomes plain and evident to us. So that was the one in seminary

that really kind of lit me on fire. That's awesome. How about you, Ryan? Anything, Sanda? Yeah, I'm glad I had more time to think about it while Courtney's answering. Ephesians was the first book that I, which I'm actually wrapping up

teaching Ephesians right now. So full circle, super fun. Ephesians was the first book I read. It was in our Greek 3 class after we'd worked through the grammar and the syntax. And I remember seeing the same language that was ascribed to Christ in chapter 1, you know, being raised and seated, seeing that, wow, it's the exact same word, Nephages 2, but just with soon, just with that little prefixed with. And I mean, maybe you could isolate that word with in your English and take it off, but

just seeing like, wow, like Paul is like, he's telling the Christ story, but he's like making it our story. But he's like making it our story and that our victory, both Jew and Gentile, our journey from sin and death into the Lord's kingdom of light is just one of our union with Christ. And we are grafted into that story. And yeah, it's just to see it. It's the same word, just with a with on the beginning. That kind of ties into the earlier point about sometimes just slowing down. Like the English word with is not a very exciting word. But when you see Paul, like, I think that's even a hotbox, right?

I mean, he almost like creates... Making up words. Making up words to make a theological point because the theological truth is like, has not been captured yet by the Greek language. Just a few times when Paul uses words that we don't have access to and that we don't have other... Leastorist? What did he say?

He's the least or the most leastest of the apostles. He takes a superlative and puts a, what is that, comparative on top of it. I'm the most leastest of the apostles. Ephesians 3.8, right? I think it is. Yeah, where he's talking about how he cannot believe that God has chosen him to be the agent to the Gentiles. And he's so over the top that he kind of creates this word. The super leastest of all these least people. Yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah. Have you seen the light go on with languages with people that you're teaching like is it is it that's this platform is it really doing what you were hoping it would it would do it's so awesome man to see to see students in these exegesis classes like walking through ephesians that like a year ago i was like here's alpha here's beta here's gamma is just it is remarkable wow and um it's it's it's beta, here's gamma. It is remarkable. And it's really exciting. I think another light bulb, and I don't mean to say this pejoratively. I think you already, in your conversation with Con Campbell that you had, which was fabulous, by the way.

Y'all talked about this a little bit. The way that pastors that love the Lord, love their Bible with good intentions, just make these assumptions about how language works. Really irresponsible ways of using the original languages, like even just like, here's the word. Let me look it up in Strong's. Okay, it's that Greek word. Let me look that up in a Greek lexicon. Now let me blindly apply all of those possible definitions to every single use of this in the Greek New Testament. Like students pick up on those things really quick because we emphasize them in our program. Like basically reading the Bible responsibly, whether you're reading it in English.

And I think those are some of the most exciting light bulbs to watch come on just because it's, you know, sure, they're learning their Hebrew. Sure, they're learning the Greek, but they're also like just growing in their understanding of how language works and thus how the Bible works and how to read it well. I feel like learning the languages can either make a student more prideful or more humble. You know, prideful, we all know what that looks like. You know, they get a semester of Greek under the bell and all of a sudden now they're correcting their pastor like oh this translation is bad i'm like dude whoever translated that since studying greek longer you've been alive maybe maybe it's off i'm not saying it's inspired but what's that like yeah number nothing makes me i just i really i did what is it To use a Hebrew expression, my nose is short for students yelling at or, you know, talking about how stupid a Bible translator is. It's like, who do you think you are?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, there's more complexity here. Oh, this word could mean three different things. And it's not, you know, crystal clear what the author means here. And so people that have, think of something like kephale, you know, man or husband, head of the wife is Christ, head of the church, whatever. Does kephale mean the source or the authority over whatever? And obviously, this is a really emotional debate for right reasons. But you start looking in and you're like,

oh, this word is more complex than what any English word is capable of doing. Because you have to translate it some way. Every translation can have all these footnotes on, here's all the different ways you could translate. So I think it does give you a little bit of, should give you some humility of like, oh, there's some complexity, some beautiful complexity. This isn't to say, well, we can't understand the Bible.

It just means that we got to put some thought into studying the Bible. I'm just thinking of so many passages right now that I'm working through that like even first Timothy 2.12, you know, man, I don't permit a woman to exercise, to teach or exercise authority over man. But that word authority often Tain is never used in the new Testament. It's not the normal word for authority and it can be used very differently in other contexts sometimes it's translated murder like it's overpowering you

know not just exercising godly authority but then there are some times when it means godly it's like oh my gosh like this one word which has shaped whole church cultures is really complex you know is that discouraged like when you hear that i mean because to me it makes me excited like i'm fine with the complexity some history other people are like no if it's not like super easy to understand that i then my whole faith is rocked you know have you have you experienced people to go through that kind of like deconstruction or i haven't personally like experienced that but i think that again if in our program we emphasize kind of just understanding the bible in its context in its genre and like again that bible is beautiful worshipful aspect and if you really understand the how god could condescend not only in the form of jesus but he condescended even in language to us

that he is revealing something to us and the mystery and complexity of that language and we are are here to kind of wrestle with that text, to be the people of Israel, right, who wrestle with God and wrestle with the text that he's given us. And so we kind of, we hold these things loosely and openly and allow our students to come to different conclusions on how they're wrestling with that text as well. Because like I said, we have people from all different kinds of theological traditions. But yeah, I think the humility thing is something that's really exciting for most students, even if they come from a very, you know, strict confessional background. Have you ever experienced like theological debates erupting or people kind of does that ever cause tension?

I mean, so far you've said it's been great. So little. I mean, there's been a few times, like a handful of times that I felt like as a teacher, I need to put the lid on something. Really? But it's been very I think part of it is we just get great students. And it's just like the kinds of avenues that we're using for advertising are just the Lord being good to us. But I just, if I could speak really like, hey, Theology in the Raw listeners, y'all are awesome. And the students that have come to us from you guys are just some of the most awesome

people that I've ever gotten to know. Have you had some people that specifically came over from theology in the raw oh for sure yeah that's so cool and they're great they're awesome really i think that like just there's a certain humility and like i think it's vulnerability i might be able to say that comes with like just signing up to do this like you know what i'm acknowledging that there's knowledge out there that I don't have. And I'm here to learn. And I'm here to, with an open mind, to be able to read the Bible in a new way. And I think that spirit, I'd like to think that our teachers cultivate that kind of attitude as well. But students come, I think, excited to learn,

ready to listen. And it's not that there's no pushback. It's not that I haven't had students say like, hold on, hold on, hold on. What's like what? But it's very we've had very, very good conversations. Now, in our in our exegesis classes and stuff, it helps that we're sticking to where we're keeping the theologizing to a minimum, you know, where we're looking at difference. Here's the ways that different scholars, all that understand the text really well, take this thing. Sometimes we'll say here are the theological implications of taking it this way or the other but at the end of the day it's like hey this is this is a passive participle and we could take it as one of means or as manner of temporal and here's the here's the uh implications of those things and you kind of got to make that decision for yourself yeah yeah oh that's great i'm curious

do you do you assign homework? Well, they have to, they have to, right? Of course they do. What does that look like? If somebody signed up for, you know, Greek one, what kind of demand is that? Yeah. So it's a, it's a class is 90 minutes a week. Okay. All of our classes meet once a week for 90 minutes. We ask about that same amount of time outside of class. So another 90 minutes, that's learning some vocabulary, some extras like translation exercises that reinforce what we're doing in class so like three hours a week total you know i don't have in class i don't have out of class uh really will get you through the grammar and syntax in a year so at the end of

the year you're reading because it's a because it's i i was about to say dead language but courtney doesn't let me say dead language i don't like language really why ancient language because it's alive it's alive yeah okay it's still changing and transforming people oh okay okay that's fair yeah so ancient language um that's uh it's we're we're limiting our vocabulary so we're not we're not preparing students to read philo right off the bat. You know, like the language of the New Testament, it's, you know, we don't have to learn to speak Koine Greek. We don't have to learn to write or it's, we're reading and translating and exegeting. So the game is recognition. I don't need to, I don't need to memorize every perfect form of every verb, as long as I know to look for tense formative capas and reduplication.

And, you know, that I have flashcards made for those tricky ones that can throw you off. So it really is possible. I've seen it happen. I've seen students go from alphabet of gamma to working through Ephesians with the commentary in a year. And it's awesome. Just for anyone out there wondering, a huge qualification question qualification though, is there are no tests and quizzes. So there's some homework, but no tests and quizzes because we're here to learn and to discover and investigate together. And so another real emphasis of ours is review. We spend like 30 out of those 90 minutes every single time reviewing

the relevant concepts that might be needed for that week. So it's, you know, in my seminary experience, it was like, you learned that chapter last week. And this, this week we're moving on to a new chapter. There's sometimes it's, you could get all the way through a semester and forget what you learned at the beginning. And so we kind of try to prevent that gap in learning by reviewing a lot. Do you have students that go above and beyond, like they do four or five extra hours a week and like are just killing it? Yeah, we've had a few of those. They're probably watching right now and they know that I'm talking about them. Well, we also do know that there are students who don't always do that because like life happens and they're adults.

And so we just tell them, if you can't do anything, do your vocab. Like if you can't do the exercises, do your vocab. Because you can always come back and read grammar. Yeah, still come to class. Okay, here's a few tricks that I learned. Yeah, so just like to dovetail if anybody is listening. Like when you're learning vocab cards, and I did this all through my PhD because I wanted to get my vocab down to like as low as I could.

The top of my head knew these words. I didn't have to look them up um I would take a wad of like maybe 20 20 to 50 I don't know uh words and I would go and I would uh ride the elliptical machine because on elliptical you can you can you can keep your head steady right so I would go and I would flip cards I did this with German French actually I don't think I did with I think I did with Hebrew I think I knew enough would flip cards. I did this with German, French. Actually, I don't think I did with... I think I did with Hebrew. I think I knew enough Greek by then that I was...

I had all these other languages. But I would... And I would flip the cards and just keep flipping them. When I nailed a word the next time around, I would pull it out. So that I honed in on the words that I didn't know. And I'm telling you, my last five, I would literally... Wouldn't know it, flip it over. Okay, there's a definition.

And five cards later, I would still not know it. Like I just saw this word 10 seconds ago and I just said over and over and over. So the words that I knew right off the top of my head, I'm not spending time, I already know that. And I feel like that was for me, who's terrible at memorizing languages did not come naturally to me at all.

That was really helpful. And you get a workout in. So I would do that every day during lunch. I would go and I would just say, all right, I'm going to, yeah, go ride the elliptical for 45 minutes and just flip cards, you know? And also I just found just reading the text over and over and over is so helpful. Even now, like I don't, I can, I can translate a word and tell you what it means, but I can't tell you all the morphology of like, well, because this data

is here and this, but I'm like, I don't know what's going on here. I just know this is a future because I'm just familiar with it. So I think that's encouraging for people that are just slugging their way through the syntax and grammar. They're like, Oh my God, how am I going to keep all this in my mind? And I'm going to say, you don't necessarily have like, just that that'll be your foundation, but it's kind of like English. Like I can't tell you half the reasons why this English word means this. It just, it just does, you know? So yeah.

Slugging your way through a grammar book is not the easiest thing to do, but. No, you're absolutely right. And it's fun to see those light bulbs come on way after the grammar and syntax is done and yeah like it's it's it's intuitive like yeah i see what i see what genitives are doing now yeah you know like you told me you told me in simple language a year ago and like i was like okay but now i'm in the text and it makes sense yeah you're absolutely right and i mean i we tell students when they're struggling, like just keep, keep on, keep on trudging through. It's going to click. It's going to click when it clicks and clicks different in different orders and in different

ways for different people. And I think that's one thing we love about our program is that we have the flexibility. We have real life teachers that are talking to you where you are. And we just, we just wait until those things click on. What's your hope and dream for Kairos? Like if you could snap your fingers, where would you want to be in five years with it? Yeah, we do have discussions like that sometimes. Yeah, I'm probably more of the dreamer with Kairos. And I try to sometimes push Ryan a little bit faster.

So we are going to be starting a podcast soon where we're able to kind of dig into some of these kind of intricacies within the language and show them to people who don't have any Greek or Hebrew background but might just want to listen to them so that's one thing but I also would like us to get into just kind of what what would uh it look like to kind of give some of this platform to our students for themselves and kind of make it more interactive and And hopefully, you know, we end up with this community that is kind of all over the world and churches all over the world that's

excited and applying this new knowledge theologically within their own church context. You know what I would love, absolutely love, is a podcast, maybe 10 minutes, an episode where somebody is just taking a chunk of the original language, just a passage, maybe it's a couple of verses or whatever, and just walks through it and explains what's going on. Because I actually would, even though I just said like half the time I'm reading, I'm like, I know it means this. I'm not sure why. I actually would like to be reminded of, you know, certain constructions and, or certain particles or just stuff like, what's that word doing that? I don't know yeah anyway there's certain nuances of language i'm like i

wish i had an expert kind of like walking me through daily dose daily dose of greek and daily dose of hebrew you know does that exactly what you just described that's what you guys want to do because you do you know anybody else doing that on a podcast level yeah so i wouldn't say it's a podcast level, but daily dose of Hebrew does that. And like two minutes a day, they'll take just like a single verse and just walk through all the different parts of speech within that verse and kind of how they're interacting. It's called daily.

Daily dose. Oh yeah. Sorry. That was not, yes. That's the name of the thing. Daily dose. It's,

it's, it's plumber at, at Southern and doing the Greek. And is it Futado that does the Hebrew? It's Futado. Yeah, Futado who does. They're great. It wouldn't be a way to learn.

Like you wouldn't, you couldn't learn that way. But like if you learned it, you want to keep it up. Like that's a great, you're a little short. He does, he'll be like, there's a transformative sigma. And that tells me this is future. And like, it's very, very well done. And is that a podcast? Yeah, YouTube. Oh, YouTube. Okay. And is that a podcast? Yeah. YouTube.

Oh, YouTube. Okay. I guess that was, it's not like podcast form. It's like just instructional videos. That's how I would describe it. Okay. I'll check it out. Cause that, yeah. So you guys, what do you go? So you said a podcast, it wouldn't be something kind of like that, but be a more expanded, like just working through a passage. Yeah. And more of our audience will be people that, I mean,

of course people that know Greek and Hebrew, I think will enjoy the discussion. I mean, we're talking about the text itself, but I think our, like our, our most general audiences is just anybody who cares about the Bible. I kind of trying to take,

what would you glean exegetically theologically from the text? If you knew Greek, if you knew Hebrew and how can we bring bring that? So we just recorded one on John 1.1 and the absence of the article on Theos. And the word was God, the word was divine, the word was a God. So just walking through like, what is Caldwell's rule? And what does it mean when God doesn't have an article? And are there other times like just helping people see and understand? Yeah. So things like that. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. The closest podcast I could think of, my buddy, John Whitaker does, it's called the

Listener's Commentary. It's like 20 to 30 minutes of, he just walks through books of the Bible, not in a sermon kind of way, but just like if you were going to read a commentary, what would that look like on audio? It fantastic but he and he knows the languages so sometimes he'll bring out nuances but he is really you know working through the english text and i told him i said hey look i this is you probably don't have a huge audience for this but like it'd be so cool to do exactly that but in the original like assuming the person knows the language is enough to kind of follow along. But, um, he's like, yeah, I have like five people, you know, listen to that. So would you like to, I mean, more teachers, more classroom, more classes, more students. I mean, is that a huge desire?

Are you kind of like, Hey, if it stays where it's at, I'm fine too. Or, um, more students, more teachers. Um, I think also conferences. I mean, everybody wants to do a conference within their own niche, but it would be cool to get the kind of scholars that we read closer to the people who are interested in our type of classes so that they can interact with them together. So I think that would be exciting as well. Do you feel like you're competing with seminaries or coming alongside seminary training? Because a lot of these online things, that's kind of the question. Are these trying to replace seminaries? Is this a threat?

Is this seminaries are losing students? Is it because more people are going online? Or do you feel like it's your mission to come alongside basically providing training for people that can't or wouldn't go attend a seminary? That. I mean, we very much see ourselves. We're very close. All of our students, this is just for now, all of our students are, I'm sorry, I'm not a student. All of our teachers are Beeson grads. And this is not, this has not been on purpose.

It's just connections. And we know that they're, we've known that these are great, great teachers. And we teach what we call primer courses courses for people coming into Greek or Hebrew for the first time we are joining with Beeson Divinity School and teaching incoming students just the basics even in English

what is a subject and what is an object nominative and accusative are going to be really scary week two of class if you don't have these basic categories. So we're supporting. We're supporting the vision of Beeson Divinity School. And you're absolutely right. We are coming alongside.

I mean, some of our students that have gone to seminary, they just need kind of the refresher. Most of our students have no, like our engineers and doctors and teachers, they're not going to go to seminary. They just want to learn Greek or Hebrew. So very much not in competition with seminaries and we have a number of students who also um are kind of in their summer break or something like that and um are wanting to stay fresh on their greek or hebrew so like you know we really are just kind of an extra tutor in that process um so we aren't yeah we're not trying to compete with seminaries we we appreciate their work they beason for us was so formative in our lives and so uh if you can do that in-person

learning experience it really will change and transform your life but that's we realize it's not the the opportunity for everyone courtney did brian just reach out to you when he was starting this and said hey i want you to be a prof here. And is this your full time job, Courtney? Or is this something you do on the side? Currently, this is what I'm doing mostly full time. I'm also like working on church planting here in the area that we're in as well. But Ryan kind of started this initially through friends on Facebook or people within his church. And our other business partner, Jesse, was one of those people within his church who decided to just learn Greek for fun. And he was like, Hey, I think we should kind of turn this into a business. It's like, what would it look like if we turned it into a business?

And so Jesse and like our families are really, really close friends. He's one of our best friends. And so he was like, Courtney, I think you should do this with Ryan. So Jesse was kind of our intermediary with this. And he was the one who wanted to make it into a business. So that's how we started doing it and you have one of our students taylor brazil's another instructor i'm seeing on the website yes we have two we have another hebrew teacher michael davis okay and um another greek

teacher that is coming coming very soon that's um yeah so we're we're growing our teaching community and i mean these are i mean i'm i tell my friends i'm self-conscious because i'm surrounding myself with people smarter than me uh but um these are these are just fabulous fabulous people and our students love them and it's been really good to get to know them and like our criteria is like bible nerds who are down to earth and can like talk like a normal person. I think like we want, we want people that are really excited about kind of the academic world of, of biblical studies.

But who also like have a heart for walking people through the text and, and just helping people understand the Bible better. And can it communicate that and really kind of down to earth kinds of ways. What's your ideal, liketo-student ratio? Do you want one teacher for every 10 students or 20 students? Cap our classes at six. Six? Six.

Wow. So there's a lot of one-on-one attention. That's – wow. Part of the vision. I mean, we think this is important. We want every student to feel like they can ask as many questions as they want so that they have time to um to where me is i mean i've taught i've taught a couple classes bigger than six and it just feels a little bit like i don't get to know everyone

quite as well i don't get to hear everybody's story i couldn't like when it's a class of six or less i feel like you can ask me about any student i know kind of what their engagement is and how they're doing, how they're feeling about things, because, you know, we have time and there's the space to engage that. Also, with bigger classes, students tend to clam up. I think there's a sense in which students don't want to like some students are afraid to talk in front of others. Some students don't want to take time away from others. others. Some students don't want to take time away from others. But with six, it just feels like a little cohort and it feels like everybody has a space to kind of be themselves as a learner. Have you ever gotten together with, is there any kind of in-person gathering you've tried to form or not? That'd be tough. Not yet. Not yet, yeah. That would maybe come eventually.

Here's an idea. You could do something at the Theology of Neuron, Excels and Babylon conference next year. I just talked to another guy who he's got a ministry that we've sent a lot of people his way to. Maybe we'll do kind of an informal gathering there or something. I've struggled. I just saw, everybody knows, like I struggle with the biblical languages. I've gone through many seasons where I don't keep up or I lose it. So I'm not at all like, oh, I read Greek and Hebrew every day. Like it's been a struggle. It's a struggle to learn.

But I did it. Once you start seeing some success, it, gosh, there's an enjoyment there when all of a sudden you start reading and you're not checking every other word.

You're like, oh, I'm starting to get this. Like that, that's, maybe I'm a nerd too. I don't know. But there's a thrill there. It's like, wow, this'm starting to get this. Like that, that's, maybe I'm a nerd too. I don't know, but there's a thrill there. It's like, wow, this is crazy. It's a good thing to be. Yeah, it's worth, it's worth, I've, I don't, okay, here's, I got to make sure this doesn't sound offensive.

It shouldn't be offensive, but like I, people say, well, do I need to know the languages? Sometimes I'll, you know, I'll hear pastors say that. And again, if God's thrown you into ministry, you haven't had the money, the ability, the space, you've got five kids, you're just struggling just to love your people well. There's no shade on anybody who, for very practical reasons, just hasn't had the space to learn the languages. But if you have the space, money, something, if you have three extra hours a week, people ask me, do I really need to know the language?

Is it really that important? And I will say, anecdotally, I've never met somebody ever who has taken the time to learn the languages who would say, yeah, I kind of regret doing that. It wasn't really that important. The only people who say, is it really that important are people It wasn't really that important. You know, the only people who say, isn't it really that important are people that haven't learned the languages.

And again, I'm not even the person who doesn't have the ability, whatever. Totally get it. Totally get it. But if you do have the space, take that opportunity. Yeah. Absolutely.

I also think there's people who might have learned in seminary and this was like the classes they expected to suffer in. And they were very difficult. And that level was up there because you had people who were on a Ph.D. track and some people were just on a pastoral track in the same class. And they often will say to us like, oh, I don't really use that anymore. But I just want to say to them, but you're reading commentaries to prepare for your sermon. And you couldn't do that. You couldn't do that if you didn't have that Greek or Hebrew.

So it might not feel like you're like just translating Ephesians like you did in seminary, like you are using those tools in ways that you're not really always cognizant of. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Well, thank you guys for coming on. So kairosclassroom.com to check it out. And I hope this didn't sound too sales. I want to have you guys on because I love what you guys are doing. I love people who are into the biblical languages. So this wasn't designed to like, therefore, no, you get a discount. But I would highly encourage people if at all you've been kind of nudged towards, hey, maybe I should at least consider this. You have a free trial lesson on here, I see, right?

What is that? What is that? Do they get like a 190-minute session where they can come and sit in and it's a short, it's 30 minutes and it's just a chance to meet with one of our teachers. And if they want to learn just the first few letters of the Greek or Hebrew alphabet, they can, a lot of times students are just like, Hey, like, I just want to see like a human face that this is a real thing. And, uh, just talk through a lot of the things that we've talked about in this podcast, just, just saying what we're about and letting them know how to sign up. But yeah, free trial lesson is awesome.

That's how a lot of our students kind of figure out what's going on and join. One more question. Are you looking for more teachers? What's the criteria for teachers? Like how many years of language do they have to have? And I would assume they can make some extra money if somebody is looking for extra work and do languages they have to have? And they, I would assume they make, they can make some extra money. Somebody who's looking for extra work to, and do what they love to do. Is that, is that, are you guys always looking for new teachers or?

Yeah. So we've kind of just, uh, like we've been growing kind of organically. So as we've needed more teachers, like our criteria is seminary level background and really like an affinity for the languages. Um, and we're, you know, we don't have like strict criteria other than just wanting to be engaging with students, wanting to teach languages. And we kind of figure it out as we talk with that individual candidate. And so far, most of them, we've had somewhat of a connection through our seminary, but that doesn't mean we're only hiring

Beeson grads, right? So if they want to reach out to us, they can on the contact page on our website. And we definitely would love to. We have a little list of people who are kind of the next on our contact list as we continue to grow. I'm sure some people listening are going to be like, hey, I would love to be involved teaching there. So go check out KairosClassroom.com and see if this is a good fit for you. Thank you guys for being on the podcast. Of course. Thank you so much. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.