Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1008: #1008 - A Raw Conversation with America’s Pastor: Max Lucado

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

A 2004 Christianity Today article dubbed Max Lucado as “America’s Pastor.” Max has been a pastor for over four decades and has written over 50 books that have sold millions and millions of copies worldwide. Naturally, I was a bit floored when Max reached out to me and wanted to know if he’d be willing to talk with me on my podcast. Of course I said yes! We talked about lots of things related to the current state of the church, how to cultivate longevity and vibrancy in ministry, doing ministry in a post-Christian culture, church and politics, and his most recent book Help Is Here: Finding Fresh Strength and Purpose in the Power of the Holy Spirit.  If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!  –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/theology –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hey friends, I just want to invite you to consider joining the Theology in the Raw Patreon community. This is a group of followers who believe in the ministry and work of Theology in the Raw and want to support it financially. And honestly, I've been so impacted by the people who have chosen to support this podcast. Every month they send in a bunch of questions. A lot of them are really personal and I get to spend time responding to them in a private podcast. And we, you know, we'll message each other throughout the month and post responses to each other's questions. I'm actually going to start something new this fall, a monthly live Zoom chat with some of the members. And I'm super looking forward to actually seeing more of their faces every month. And there's other perks to come up like a free virtual

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in Iran community for a minimum of five bucks a month by going to patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. The link is in the show notes. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is pastor and author Max Lucado, who should be well known to, I'm sure, most, if not all of you. In 2004, there was an article in Christianity Today that labeled Max America's pastor. And he's written a ton of books, over 50 books, has sold millions and millions and millions of copies, and has been a faithful pastor for several decades. So I was really excited when Max reached out and wanted to be on the podcast, wanted to be on The Elgin Raw. He wanted to be on The Elgin Raw. And I was like, no way. I don't want to have Max Lucado on. Just kidding.

I was very eager to have Max on. So he has a new book out, Help Is Here, Finding Fresh Strength and Purpose in the Power of the Holy Spirit. And we did talk about that book. But we also just talked about being a Christian leader for several decades in America. What has that been like? What kind of wisdom can he offer us from the position of a seasoned pastor and leader? So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Max Licato. If you don't know the name Max Licato, then you might've been under a rock somewhere for quite some time. So, you know, your publicist reached out to me and said, would you like to have – so I had this author named Max Clado. Would you like to have him on your podcast?

And I was like, well, of course, but I'm sure you would like to be on more popular ones. And then they said this is one of the few podcasts you want to be on. This was my idea, Preston. This was my idea. I, uh, I have admired you from afar for at least a couple of years. I've deeply appreciated the willingness that you have to tackle some tough topics and, and you lead the way. Uh, I think, I think there I'm 67 years old. That sounds really old. I don't feel that old.

But I feel like my generation was spared some conversations that have to be had right now. That a younger person says, okay, if you want me to take faith seriously, we got to talk about these things. Right. Yes. And somehow our generation, my generation, the guys in their 60s and 70s, that kind of came along behind us a little bit. Maybe we suppressed it. Maybe we just denied it. But you're not. You're waiting in. So I'm turning to you to say,

OK, how do I think through issues of sexual identity, LGBTQ questions? How do I better respond to even questions of heaven and hell? And so thank you. I wanted the opportunity to say thank you, because we desperately need you. Because I think your finger is on the pulse of the generation far better than mine is. And I needed the help, and I'm appreciative. Yeah, I can't tell you how much that means to me. I mean, for so many reasons, I could almost close in prayer right now and this podcast would be a win in my book. But let me spin it around too. And I know your generation made some mistakes, but also there's things my generation and younger need to say, no, the boomers took a hard stance on truth and they weren't going to waver. They were committed to the text of scripture. They, you know, weren't as swayed maybe by certain cultural

phenomena. And so I would love to take the boat. I mean, this should be obvious, but sometimes we forget. I mean, we should take the best of each generation, right? I mean, each generation had something they did really well and also had some blind spots. So I don't – I think there can be a bit of – is it Lewis said? A chronological snobbery where we think the new is enlightened and the boomers didn't get it and they were all misogynistic or all this stuff. Like, hold the phone here. Sure, yes, there's things we can learn. But there's things we need to take with us from previous generations too.

So thank you for being faithful. I joked kind of offline, but I was excited to have you on. You've pastored for at least four decades? Well, since 79. 79. Yeah. You've been through, my word, so many things. And you're still, I think, love Jesus, still faithful to the gospel, still pastoring. I have so many questions on that. I guess, let me frame it. Let me begin like this. It seems like we are living in a very, very uniquely intense cultural moment. Would you agree with that? Or do you feel like we've been in a similar place before in your time of ministry? I know it's a broad question, but I think you kind of know what I'm getting at.

Well, yeah. Here's the bottom line thought that I have. I think we have long since exited that era in which it's cool to be a Christian. Okay. Okay. And that's okay with me. We don't want to be in an era in which it's culturally accepted to be a Christian. When we, as we have been coming out of that, it has forced many of us to take our faith more seriously.

If you're in a culture that says we need you to be a Christian before we're going to hire you or accept you, then it creates that cultural Christian. it creates that cultural Christian. What I'm seeing happening is that it is taking its toll as far as just people who call themselves Christians, but those who do call themselves Christians, I think, have a more steadfast faith. They've worked it through. They've, you know, fought the moral questions that come with that, and they're willing to pay a price. So is that too rambling of an answer? No, I would imagine you probably traveled the world, right? I mean, there is something sweet and difficult, obviously, but really special in countries where it's, like you said, it's not cool to be a Christian. I hear what you're saying.

There's a vibrancy and authenticity. Yeah. And you always come back, right? You come back from mission trips or whatever, like, oh, I wish I had that. Then you go to church, it just feels a little flat and stale. I hear you. I hear you. Not that we would invite persecution. We want everybody to get saved.

But as we are moving into a post-Christian culture, there could be a healthy refining on the other side. Is that kind of what you're starting to see? I remember this, golly, it's probably been 15 years since I made a trip to Beijing, and they treated me like a king. I mean, the Christians here, you would have thought I was a pope or something. I mean, they just were so kind to me. But as I heard their stories, I just wanted to weep. I thought, would I be a Christian here? Would I?

You know, what they lost, what they were willing to sacrifice. You're absolutely right. There is a vibrancy to their faith in a place like China that I'd never have had to develop. Wow. How long have you been in San Antonio? Is that your whole ministry career? Okay. No, sir. I moved here in 1988. And I'm no longer senior pastor of the church. I'm what we call, about three years ago, I transitioned into a role called teaching pastor. And that means that I help with the preaching. Specifically, I preach 20 times a year. Okay. But I don't do, I don't head up the staff or do anything like that anymore.

That's like a dream. That's a dream job. It's a dream job. It is. It is. It is. We've got Travis Eads is our new senior pastor. Well, new in the last three years. He came in pre-COVID, poor guy. And he's just great. He's 42, 43, and the church is in great hands. So when you talk about kind of moving into a post-Christian culture, it's not no longer cool to be a Christian. You're speaking that from Texas. I mean, the assumption is, well, it's still cool and hip to be a Christian in Texas for people that aren't in Texas. But are you saying even in San Antonio, I mean, you're seeing the same kind of movement that we see elsewhere? I'm seeing that. Now, we still have megachurches, you know, but denominational alliances are no

more, okay? Nobody says, okay, I'm going to move to San Antonio and always go to a Baptist church. That's not going to happen, because just the fact that I'm going to go to a Baptist church. That's not going to happen because just the fact that I'm going to go to a Christian church is the big step. And so I think it's healthy. I thought that I grew up in it. I don't want to go into my whole story. My whole story is really a mess. I was a drunk. I was a womanizer. I was a troublemaker. I was the guy you did not want your daughter to go out with in college. But when the Lord finally got my – and I came to trust the grace of God, I stepped into a world that was very polarized between you were a Presbyterian Christian, you were a Baptist Christian, you were a Catholic Christian, you were Episcopalian Christian. And I think that, yeah, I'm certainly not the cultural expert that you are, but I sense that that has diminished a lot. And really what matters is, do you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

I experienced that probably for the first time when I went to Scotland to study for my PhD. And Scotland, like most of Europe, is a very post-Christian culture. There's a state, for lack of better terms, a state church there, but not a lot of gospel-centered churches. And so in Aberdeen, where I was at, there were at least half a dozen, maybe 10 or so at the time, gospel-centered churches. And they were all across denominational lines, and they didn't care.

They didn't care. Like, oh, you're preaching the gospel too? So are we. You baptize converts, you baptize babies, whatever. It's like all these things are not important. But man, there's a unity around the gospel. And I just, that was so refreshing to me because I came from a very- Well, that's a feeling.

Yeah, yeah. You can keep the main thing the main thing easier when you really are outnumbered. So I want to know what the secret is. Constructing, burning out, battling with depression, suicide, anxiety, affairs, promiscuity, greed, addiction. How have you done this for so long and still maintained some... I'm sure you'd say I have my skeletons and faults and stuff, but you're not on the news because you...

I won't fill in the blank there, you know, but what's the secret? What have you felt like looking back that you have done? Not that obviously because of the spirit in you, but are there certain ecclesiological decisions you made to help prevent these kind of very common failures that pastors have faced? Not just failures. I mean, burnout might not be a failure, but just, you know. Oh, yeah. I hear you. I hear you. Immediately names bubble up in my mind of colleagues of my era that I'm just brokenhearted,

over whom I'm brokenhearted. And then I think of others who have done well and are finishing well, you know, whose final mile is going to be their best mile. And boy, I'm so thankful for them. This is one of those questions, Preston, that's almost like I'm afraid to answer, because what if I screw it up? I mean, to be honest, I think I don't want to mess things up. I will say this. I have a deep, deep gratitude to Jesus of staining the reputation of the church. I get that. And I just – I think I would just go into Elijah's cave and never come out if I did something that brought embarrassment to the church.

And I realized that for whatever reason, God called me, I think mainly through writing so many books, to be somewhat of a well-known person. But I'll tell you what, man, I'm a sinner and I have a sin nature and I'm sealed by the Holy Spirit. I know I'm going to heaven, but boy, I sniffed the sulfur of the devil. It seems like all the time, you know, I keep every device I have. I have every filter I can buy. I don't want to ever be in a room where I'm two clicks away from the picture of a naked woman. I've got to guard the alcohol intake because I was a drunk. I was a disciple of Coors before I was a disciple of Christ. And so I drink, but I've got to be careful. There have been occasions, and I've been real upfront with our

church about one time in particular when I started drinking too much. And so those are the kind of the two access points. I think that the devil, I really believe I'm eternally secure. I really believe I'm going to heaven, but I really believe that you can be King David and blow it. And so I think that's about all the wisdom I've got on that topic, is that I'm just grateful to God that He saved me, and I ask you to pray for me, and I'll pray for you that we finish strong. That's so good. Well, I mean, that's pretty refreshingly shocking to hear you be so open and honest, especially a high-profile person, Big Church, to be honest with you. I learned early it's hard to put up a front. It's exhausting.

It's exhausting. It's exhausting. I learned early. And so if you come up and say, hey, Locato, I hear that you—I can't say I was an alcoholic. That would be wrong because I know that. But I was a heavy drinker. So you come up and say, Lakato, I hear that you used to really knock them down. I say, man, I can tell you that's been out in the open forever.

I don't want anything. There's not anything that's hidden. The Lord has protected my marriage. The Lord has protected my marriage. The Lord has protected my financial integrity. The Lord has protected our church from any major crisis. And so not because of me, though. I know. Did you put up accountability structures or just did you make sure you cultivated just healthy friendship in the midst of all your ministry relationships?

Our church has a real strong elder board. We always have. It's not a senior pastor prototypical church where I could make big decisions on behalf of the church. And I like that. I think our senior pastor can, I think according to our bylaws, I'll be honest, I'm not sure what it is. It may be up to $100,000 I could spend. Now that sounds like a lot, but it's a somewhat healthy budget.

But most of the decisions I would make would have to be made in conjunction with elders. That keeps me from just freewheeling. And it seems to me that some of the trouble that happens is when a pastor is just given a checkbook or given complete authority. And you know this, brother, when somebody starts calling you pastor, they start calling you reverend, you start thinking you're special. You start believing it. You start believing it. And you got to set up some things.

And then also, I've got a good friend who travels with me everywhere I go. And I never go on a trip by myself. I never, uh, have a closed door meeting with a female. Okay. Not out of disrespect. I've gotten in trouble even for saying that, but if I'm meeting with a female, I keep the door open and my assistant is just right outside the door. So, so little things like that, And my assistant is just right outside the door. So little things like that that have proven to be real helpful. Yeah, yeah.

Wow. What did you make of the last couple of years? I mean, how do you reflect on the pandemic and even the divisions that, obviously political divisions, cultural divisions, but that trickled down into the church and the church. Every pastor I talked to said, this has been one of the most difficult two years of discipleship that I've experienced. And it had little to do with theology. It was all these culture wars that the church has engaged in. Did you experience that where you're at and how'd you navigate that? Well, I conveniently resigned right before COVID. Good timing. COVID.

Good timing. No, seriously. I mean, I really was spared. That's a rough thing. But you still had a front row seat to, I mean, you were still involved. Yeah. Oh, brother. I'm I don't know how much to say. You know, I just don't know how much to say.

You know, I just don't like how closely evangelicals have aligned themselves with the far right politically. I know I'm going to get a bunch of emails, so I'm just kind of bracing myself. Not as many as I'll get. Not as many as I'll get. Not as many as you'll get. I'm very concerned that people who are seeking Christ might not pursue Christ because we've been so vocal on secondary issues. Is that a fair— Let me share a quick illustration that I think you're getting at. This is like right in the... Once churches started opening up, I had a friend that was

witnessing to her neighbor and really sharing Jesus, and the friend had a spiritual interest. And finally, she said, hey, would you like to come to church next Sunday? And the friend says, yeah, sure, I'll come. Well, it turns out the last second she couldn't come. So my Christian friend, you know, still goes to church. It turned out to be such a blatant far right kind of political speech, very anti-Democrat making fun, mocking. And my friend, my Christian friend, who's been witnessing to this non-Christian said, I'm so thankful that my Christian, my non-Christian friend didn't come because they're a Democrat. And they would have had the impression that I'm an idiot, um,

to be a Christian is to be Republican and everything. And she just kind of like, what do I do with this? That I'm so glad that my non-Christian Democrat friend didn't come to church because of the way politics were spewed all over the place, you know? And I'm like, that's you. Like, can't we see that that is not okay? Like, who could say, yes, that's how we should be doing the kingdom, you know? Like, that just doesn't—

But that's not uncommon, that kind of experience, you know? Yeah. Well, I'm just going to say the big message of the church is the kingdom message, and that is that God is equipping a population of people to reign with him forever, for eternity. That's the big story. That's the big story, and that he has made provision. He has provided his Holy Spirit to strengthen us. He's provided the scripture to guide us. He sent his son to die for us.

These are the big rocks of the gospel. And I don't know if we can afford the luxury of discussing things that are secondary to these. We want to be known as people who love the marginalized, who care for the poor, who would die for the people for whom our Savior died. So that's the concern that I have. We've got to keep the big thing, the big thing. I'm curious. One of the last things I saw you write, other than the book, publicly, and I could have missed a whole slew of other things, other than the book publicly and then i could have missed a whole slew of other things but was in 2016 when you were fairly outspoken that against trump um as a kind of what was

becoming almost like a christian icon you know like i didn't hear you necessarily well i had to go back and read it you definitely weren't like saying you shouldn't be republican shouldn't vote a certain direction but it was almost just like, are we idolizing somebody who is almost a quasi-Christian icon that is not at all representing kingdom values? Is that a summary of your article? And what was the response like from that? Yeah, that was a blog. It was called Decency for president and uh the response was it broke our uh what do you call it our web our our web crashed it was we had so many emails come in from that

um oh my gosh and and uh yeah i was just saying that uh we should even hold a person who's going to be a candidate for president to a high moral standard. And as Christians, we should get behind. And I was deeply concerned for so many people. That issue has yet to be resolved, yet to be resolved. to be resolved, yet to be resolved. It has not. I still believe we should hold our leaders to high integrity. And so it's been a rough, rough few years for that. I didn't stay in that fray, though. I really kind of, I said, okay, I've made my, you know, I've made my contribution. okay, I've made my contribution. And I have dear friends, Preston, and men and women with whom I've served forever who have served on the president's council. I mean, so we have different opinions on that, and that's okay, but it is what I did. Is your church pretty, like, how would you describe it?

Yeah. Okay. Nope. No, we're not. No, we're not. Now, there are plenty of churches in this area that are. Sure. Maybe I kind of set the temperature by writing that.

Yeah. Let's talk about your book. So you got another, how many books, is this number 30 something or 20 something? Help us here, Finding Fresh Strength and and purpose in the power of the Holy Spirit coming out September 13th, I believe. What number is this? I think it's close to 50.

That's all right. Some people go with quality, I just stick with quantity. I looked up online just prior to this interview, like the number of copies sold. If you add up all your books, it's in the hundred millions or some crazy number. Yeah. Yeah. And can you believe, you know, that that it's just, you know, the story in the Bible about Balaam's ass.

Remember the donkey that God spoke to Balaam's ass? I'm in the Balaam's ass fraternity. If God could speak through somebody like me. You know what? I love to write. I do. Do you? Okay.

Yeah. I really enjoy writing. I like the process of writing. And so I've enjoyed it. I don't consider myself – I would look at you as a scholar, seriously, as a person who can really tackle any topic. I don't put myself there. I'm a popular – I don't know, a James Mishner historian. I admire people like you,

I hold you in such high regard. And I go and I pull your books down and I try to glean just one or two thoughts. And, and, and so, but I do like to write books for people who don't like to read books. That's kind of been my mantra. And so, a pastor has served me well in that way because that's the kind of people that go to church, by and large. There are some serious students, but most of the people are not big book readers. And so I try to write to that audience. Do your books grow out of like a sermon series you did? Yes, sir. Is that pretty typical?

Yes, sir. Always, always. This sermon, this book on the Holy Spirit grew out of a series of sermons I did based on the metaphors of the Holy Spirit in the Bible, like wind, fire, oil. And so I realized that there are many metaphors, and I thought this would be a great way to study the Holy Spirit. And I had never done an extensive series with our church, and so I did using the metaphors, and it went over well. What did you discover in the process of either sermon writing, preaching, or writing? discover in the process of either sermon writing, preaching, or writing, what did you learn that maybe you hadn't, maybe not known before, but just maybe haven't appreciated or fully understood? I learned that the Holy Spirit cannot be explained or contained. And so that's a little intimidating, right? Then why am I going to try to write a book on it?

But that's wonderful. That's the beauty of the Holy Spirit. It's kind of like these pictures we're seeing from the Webb telescope. We're realizing just how immense this world is. And to think that the creator of this world cares about someone like L like Lakedo. It's just a wonderful thing. So I learned that the Holy Spirit cannot be explained or contained, but the Holy Spirit is truly our ally, our friend. And, and, and nobody, of course, understands the Spirit more than Jesus, and Jesus presented to us as our helper in John 14. And so I have found that to be true in my life and found it to be extremely encouraging to people to know

the Holy Spirit is here as our helper. One of my favorite series of passages or statements on the Holy Spirit is in primarily Luke's gospel and Acts. There's a few statements where it talks about Jesus being dependent upon the Holy Spirit. There's a phrase, I think it's in Luke 5, where it says the Spirit was present with Jesus to perform miracles or something. And there's a few statements like that. Even Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, was able to do these things. Because sometimes you think Jesus just kind of like waltz through life because he's God. And even Jesus was led into this wilderness by the Holy Spirit.

Right. What does that mean? So there's this interplay between the three persons of the Trinity. That's a beautiful thing. Beautiful thing. The one verse I don't know what to do with is, I think it's John 14, 12. Greater works, well, they, I'm going to misquote it.

I know what you're saying. Yeah, that you will do greater works than these. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait. It's like, because you'll have the Holy Spirit. And part of it's like, that can't be totally literal, can it? I mean, greater works than Jesus. But even if he's speaking hyperbolically on some level, that's still profound.

Like, greater works will believers do by the power of the Holy Spirit than what Jesus did? Or, I mean, have you made sense of that, Pat? I'm going to look it up just so I... Well, Preston, let's come at it from your ministry, okay? You have a wonderful podcast. It's a wonderful ministry. I don't know how many downloads or listens you have, but it's in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. 20,000 to 30,000 per episode, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. It's a Texas mid-sized church, basically. Okay, but can we freeze frame that right there? Okay, so 20,000 to 30,000 people. How many people listened to Jesus in person preach the Sermon on the Mount? Three or four thousand?000. Maybe he fed the day he fed the 5,000 men plus women and children. Maybe he had an audience one time of the audience you have every time. That's how much he loves you, that he would say, I'm going to let my son Preston even outdo me here. Now, we know he's the one doing the work. We know if he

just wanted to clear his throat right now from the throne in heaven, all billions of people would turn their attention. But he really lets us be his ambassadors, really lets us be the aroma of Christ. One thing that's, yeah, that that's, I've never thought of that puts it in perspective. Kind of scary. I've always been, I've always been shocked at like the age of Jesus. So I'm 46. I think back when I was 30, even now, like when I look at a 30 year old, I'm like, ah, you're just a kid. You know, like Jesus was 30 years old or 27 or however you date. You know, I know there's debates about that's, it wasn't, I know in that culture that

might've been, you know, seen as older than it would be today, but I'm like, wow, that's, he did a lot. He did a lot real fast. All, all I have three kids. The youngest is 34. Okay. So they've all outlived Jesus. Your kids are older than Jesus. I know you're not supposed to ask authors this, but do you have a favorite book that you've written or one that you just, it feels for whatever reason, dear to your heart? I do. I do. I've written a lot of children's books. I don't know if you knew that. I did. Yeah. I did hear that. Children's books. I wrote a children's book called You Are Special. And and it's a story about these wooden people who live in a land where

everybody gives each other stars and dots. You get a star every time you do something good. You get a dot every time you do something bad. And so people are walking around grading each other. And there are some people who have lots of stars. And there are some people who have so many dots that people come up and just give them a dot because they have dots. And there's this one wooden person like that. His name is Punchinello. He's got dots all over him. And he meets this other little wooden person named Lucia. She doesn't have stars or dots.

And he says, why don't you have any stars or dots? She says, because every day I go talk to Eli, the woodcarver, and he tells me I'm special. So I don't, all stars and dots fall. Well, I'm special. So I don't, all stars and dots fall. Well, you can see the application of this quickly, right, Preston? It's a story on esteem, on trusting our maker's opinion of us rather than others. And there are two reasons I love that book. Number one, it's gone all over the world. It's been in 30 or 40 languages. It's everywhere because it never mentions God. It's just a parable. Okay. So it's acceptable all over the world. And number two, and you'll get a kick out of this. I wrote it to finish a deadline. I had promised a publisher seven children's books, seven children's stories. They got in touch with me. This is pre-email days, a long time ago. But they called me on

a Monday and said, don't forget, you have a story due on Wednesday. I said, I've already sent you seven. They said, no, you sent us six. I said, you're kidding. And they said, yeah, we got to have it Wednesday. Well, I'm a pastor. I had meetings. I had a sermon to prepare. And I said, I don't have time. So I just locked the door to my office. And I said, I've got about an hour here. And I took out my legal and I put that story together. And I've always kind of liked that. God's kindness says, okay, Always kind of liked that. God's kindness says, okay, well, at least you honored your commitment, and I'll smile upon that.

So that's my story. Wow. That's my story about my story. It's wild. Did you have a certain book that just really took off and put your name on the map as a writer? Was it your first one, or was there one that was early on? It would be the second one. It was called No Wonder They Call Him the Savior. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

And that one, you talk about a guy who's been faithful all these years, Charles Swindoll. Yeah. read that and used it as a premium on his radio program way back in 1986, 87. There's a guy who has been faithful. There's a guy. He has run the race and continues to do so. And so when he did that, when he kind of put his imprimatur on it. That really helped. Can I turn things here for just a second? Sure, yeah. Okay. You're going to go on a sabbatical. Yeah.

And study about the role of women. Yeah. Okay. I want to hear more about that. Okay. Why you're intrigued by that. But then also, I want to hear, if you had two sabbaticals, what your other subject would be, because I'm looking to tell you what I would study if I could go on a sabbatical.

But first, I want to hear why the role of women—is it okay for me to ask you a couple questions? Absolutely. I'm an open book. I'm an open book. Okay. Yeah, okay. Max Ciccato interviewing me on Theology in a Row. This is one for the books. It's fun. I love it. I'll keep this really short. I was raised very, very, very strongly complementarian.

That was the environment I grew up in. If you don't believe complementarianism, you're obviously a feminist, might not be a Christian, obviously don't read the Bible kind of thing. And yet it was during my PhD program when I was studying with 25 different evangelicals from 24 different denominations. And I think I might've been the only one who was a complementarian. So here I am rubbing shoulders with all these people that love Jesus, love the Bible, are just super exegetically oriented. And a lot of them hold to women in ministry. Some were more thought out than others, but I was like, wow. So you're not just throwing the Bible out the window if you hold to this view. And so over the years, as I've just dabbled in it, you know, read this article, read this chapter, listen to this, you know, lecture or whatever, I just realized that every time I heard

something, I'm like, oh, so this is more complicated than I thought. Oh, this, you know, there's some Greek words in 1 Timothy 2 that I need to understand. There's some stuff going on in 1 Corinthians that is strange, you know, women be silent. But then earlier he said, when you're prophesying, you know, where, so there's just the, every time I kind of glance at it, no. Yeah. So, um, so over the year, over the last, I would say in the last 10 years, I've kind of told people, you know what? I haven't studied this issue well enough on my own. So when people ask me my view, I say, I don't know. I'm legitimately on the fence. I grew up with this. I still see good arguments for that. But then I

also see good arguments for the other side. So I've always said like, man, I wish I can just get away and read because there's dozens, if not hundreds of books written on it. So I'm like, I just like to be really thorough in my research. I really want to think through every possible argument, the best case for each side so that I can have an informed opinion. So while my board granted me a sabbatical and we have some funding to kind of release me to do this. So it really is, it's a personal curiosity. And also it would be probably the number one question that people that follow my work ask me. So what do you think about this topic? And also, as I'm now reading, I read at least a dozen books on it so far.

And I'm not impressed always with the tone of some of these books. And I wonder if – because I always think like, what would be my contribution? There's been so much written on it and and I'm wondering maybe my contribution would be wherever I end up landing landing because I really don't know at this point maybe modeling hopefully maybe a better way of of going about it like representing the other side whatever that is as best as you can um not importing evil motives on somebody else that lands in a different view um and being able to like foster unity maybe around uh and i don't want to say it's not an important it's very important issue but i can say right now it's complex enough that you know i

think we can have respect for another view while disagreeing with it so absolutely yeah um what does that look like for you in terms of a sabbatical? How does that work? Well, yeah. Um, my cabin in the woods. Yeah. So, um, I, for me to have, there's layers of sabbatical for me. I need to get out of my, the best case scenario is out of the country. If I'm in the country, I, I just feel like I'm still answering emails, doing stuff. So I will get away for a couple months with my family to another country close to a theological library that I can use. So I'm just, we'll completely check out. But really from now until the rest of 2022, I'm largely focusing on this project. And then, I mean, it'll take, I'm not going to

finish it in half a year, but I'll have gotten a good chunk of writing done. So I'm saying no to all speaking engagements, saying no to any non-essential right now. So yeah, I have to get away. It's so hard. I try to, I do build writing rhythms in my work week, but I get so much done when I get away, turn off the internet and just, sometimes I'll stay up until, one time I went to England for a week, but I get so much done when I get away, turn off the internet and just, sometimes I'll,

I'll, I'll stay up until one time I went to England for a week by myself and I never got off jet lag. Like I would, I would wake up at noon, right until like five in the morning, go to sleep. And like, when I came home, I never had to adjust. It was just like, and I just, you know, you're in the flow and I just, I get so much done when I'm in that kind of space. So yeah. Um, is it, you must build in writing, writing rhythms in your routine. Cause there's no way you could write that many books without. Well, again, if you just do quantity and not quality, it's amazing what all you can get done. Yeah. I would beg to differ, but yeah. If you can get away and have space. Okay, but I want to hear your number two.

You know, and this is something that I probably will write. I would love to write a short book on a Christian political identity. Not on politics. I'm not a political scientist, but if you read, like, what does the Bible tell us about how followers of Christ should think of their political identity against the backdrop of Babylon, Persia, Rome? I think the Bible actually, a lot of the Bible is written as an oppressed, from the perspective of an oppressed exile against the backdrop of these political entities. And I just wonder if we have given too much allegiance to some of these powers to be. And I know there's a history, there is a reason why that. And of course we would maybe resonate with the values of maybe one party more than the other. And I get that.

But I just see such deep allegiances being tied. And I'm like, I just think that conflicts with kind of the storyline of scripture. So that's something I would love to think through. Explore. I got a bunch of others. Yeah. So many ideas. I just, yeah. What about you?

Was it the Quaker religion? Didn't the Quakers really teach us to kind of disassociate from government? I think – I know the Mennonites did, and Mennonites, I think, came from – I think the Quakers did too, yeah. I think the Quakers did too, yeah. I should probably know that. But when you say that, I think of Elton Trueblood. It seemed to me that he did good writing on that topic. I would love a sabbatical and come to a resolution about my interpretation of end times. Oh, yeah, yeah. I grew up – well, of course, I grew up a pagan.

I grew up – well, of course, I grew up a pagan, but I – so I didn't have – my end times was a six-pack. The teaching I was exposed to when I became a Christian was amillennial. And so I just assumed that. As I began to minister and read books and make some friends, I realized that there's a pretty good case for premillennialism, more of a dispensational approach to Scripture rather than covenant theology. And I don't feel like I've ever sat back and said, okay, look, not that one is kind of like what you're going to study. Not that it's a core issue, but it's an important issue. Yeah. And so I've gradually moved over to where I really believe there will be a millennial kingdom. Okay. And that was kind of a major shift for me. Okay.

And I did spend about two or three weeks about a year ago reading a small stack of books that led me to believe that. But I still haven't quite thought it all through. And I think, Preston, I'm just genuinely curious. Yeah, yeah. And maybe that comes from being 67 years old and realizing what is next? What's going to happen? I get genuinely excited to know. I get curious. And as you know, I mean, throughout the New Testament, eschatology informs ethics. Like how we think through the future does have an impact on how we live today.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I did some reading early on on that and then just got busy with other things. I remember I really appreciate it because I actually probably was raised the opposite, very dispensational. And then now I don't even know where. Maybe more. Some of the terms I think are hard for me. dispensational and then now i don't even i did i don't even know where maybe more but some of the terms i think are hard for me like when i read historic pre-millennial like a george

lad or some other covenant guys i'm like man there's doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference here at least a lot of overlap and are we using terms kind of yeah differently or i don't know it's it's sometimes tough to sort out. Part of the challenge is, number one, understanding the terms, and then number two, just defining the terms. Yeah. But I would like to, I think, dig into that just a little bit more. Something you said about your study, what motivates you on the role of women. You want to create a project that's got a nice

tone to it. Sometimes when I read end times books, they seem like they know more about the return of Christ than Christ does. They're so authoritative. Not all of them are, but some of them are just kind of, oh my goodness. You mean if I disagree with you, you're going to slug me. And so it's not that. Yeah. And End Times is another one where you have good, solid, evangelical, exegetical theologians who are laying on different sides. DTS has a professor named Mark Hitchcock.

Oh, yeah. And he's written a book called, I think it's just called The End. Okay. But it was very helpful. It was a very, and really a nice, I would really recommend it as a, he's a dispensational theologian, but really respectfully written. That's good. We're coming up on the end of our time, Max, but I would love to give you free reign. What would you like to say to the, I almost said American Evangelical Church, but I have a lot of international listeners too. So what word of encouragement slash challenge would you like to give to the people listening? Well, first of all, thank you again. Thank you again. You listeners really need to know I solicited this interview. I did. Today is interview day. When a new book comes out, we clear four or five days and I just stack them up one after the other.

who does my marketing. I said, what about theology in the raw? Why don't you ever? And she said, well, I'll call them. I said, yeah, I do. So I solicited this. And I do want to thank you, my friend, for what you do, and may God's richest blessings be upon you. And to all of you, I would just want you to think about how the Holy Spirit is your intercessor. I love this picture. The Apostle Paul said, we do not know how to pray as we ought. Thank you, Paul, for making that confession. Because if you don't know how to pray as you ought, I don't know how to pray as I ought. But we have the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us and groans too deep for words.

And I take that to mean that some of you are passing through hard times and you don't know how to pray. You're so tired. Maybe you don't have the energy to pray. But be assured your prayers are being heard because the Holy Spirit is your advocate, your intercessor, and your friend. And what's uttered in the dark of the night is heard in the joy of the light in the presence of God. Oh, it's so good. The book is Help Us Here, Finding Fresh Strength and Purpose in the Power of the Holy Spirit, released September 13th, which I'm pretty sure this podcast, we're pre-recording it, will be released within a day or two um wonderful of the book so it's i'm sure it's available by the time they're

actually listening to this max it's great getting to know you uh next time i'm in san antonio would love to uh go out to the best barbecue place down there you can find and uh sample some we got some good options i know you do a little jealous thanks so much for being on the show, Max. Really appreciate it. Okay. All the best. God bless. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.