Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1010: #1010 - How to Deal with How You Feel: Dr. James Merritt

Episode Date: September 22, 2022

Dr. James Merritt (Ph.D. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) is a pastor, writer, and speaker. He’s the founding and lead pastor of Crosspointe Church in Duluth, GA and has served as the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He’s written several books including his recently released How to Deal with How You Feel. In this podcast conversation, we talk about this book and many other things related to what it’s like pastoring an SBC church through the last couple of years.  If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information! 

Hey friends, I just want to invite you to consider joining the Theology in the Raw Patreon community. This is a group of followers who believe in the ministry and work of Theology in the Raw and want to support it financially. And honestly, I've been so impacted by the people who have chosen to support this podcast. Every month they send in a bunch of questions. A lot of them are really personal and I get to spend time responding to them in a private podcast. And we, you know, we'll message each other throughout the month and post responses to each other's questions. I'm actually going to start something new this fall, a monthly live Zoom chat with some of the members. And I'm super looking forward to actually seeing more of their faces every month. And there's other perks to come up like a free virtual

pass to the Theology and Exiles in Babylon conference every year. But honestly, I don't want to make it sound transactional. Every single Patreon member that I've talked to says the same thing. We like all the perks. We're thankful for them. But we're just more thankful to support the ministry of theology in Iran. We're glad to do so. So if this is you, if you've been impacted by Theology in Iran, you can join the Theology

in Iran community for a minimum of five bucks a month by going to patreon.com forward slash Theology in Iran. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw community for a minimum of five bucks a month by going to patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw. The link is in the show notes. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in Raw. My guest today is Dr. James Merritt, pastor of Crosspoint Church and former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He has a Master of Divinity degree and also a PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And James and I actually got to know each other just over the last couple of years through his son, Jonathan Merritt, who I have known for a few years. And Jonathan connected me with his dad, James. And so James wanted to connect. And so we connected

on the podcast and just really appreciate his love for God's word, his love for Jesus, his love for the gospel. He's a passionate, energetic, nearly 70-year-old who's written several books, including his most recent book, How to Deal with How You Feel, Managing the Emotions That Make Life Unmanageable. At one point in the podcast, I asked him, I said, James, do you consider yourself an old school preacher, an old school Southern Baptist preacher? And you'll see kind of what I meant by that, but I love his response. He said, well, yes and no. And he kind of gave reasons why he doesn't consider himself an old school

Southern Baptist preacher. But in many ways, he does capture kind of the old school vision of what it means to be a preacher of God's word. So please welcome to the show for the first time, about this preacher. But in many ways, he does capture kind of the old school vision of what it means to be a preacher of God's word. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Dr. James Merritt. James, thanks so much for being on the show. I'm really excited about this conversation. We've chatted back and forth over the last few years here and there. So this is a joy and pleasure to see you in person. I'm a big fan of Theology in the Raw. I love it.

As you know, sometimes I listen to your podcast and I'll send you a question. Hey, did this guy say this? And I love it because it's on the one hand, very unpredictable, which is good. Number two, it's very varied. But the fact that I get to be on here is a great thrill. I appreciate you having me on. I love when I get those. Yeah, you'll send some questions like, I'm not sure I quite agree with this last guest or whatever.

Like, I love that you do that, man, because that's the spirit of the show is like we're all on a journey and a conversation. You know, there's sometimes I'll get off with a guess. I'm like, man, I don't, I don't know if I buy half of what they said or, you know, maybe they're wrong. Maybe I'm right. Maybe they're right. And I'm wrong. I don't know, but we're all trying to figure this out.

Well, Preston, I show you what a great job you do. And this is what's funny. Sometimes I have a little trouble figuring out where you stand. I said, does he agree with this or not agree with this? He just behind these questions or whatever. And it's really cool. I mean, it really is a cool podcast. No joke. I love it. That does happen. You know, part of it is I'm not a debater. I'm fine like writing. I love writing like critical responses to people and like in writing, I feel like my mind works better. But in conversation, I just like to really hear people out before I push back or whatever, especially with somebody I don't know.

So, yeah, sometimes I'll just listen just because I'm trying to learn. But then when I don't push back, people are like, whoa, do you agree with that? I'm like, what? I don't know. I'm still kind of processing it. But, yeah, that can be mistaken for me, like not having an opinion on stuff. What I figured out, Prestonon was in this one part, you were talking to this transgender person you become friends with.

Yeah. I figured out you did it brilliantly. You, you, you drew your point. You're not debating, but you're letting them do what they need to do. You're they're sharing their perspective. Yes. They're sharing their story, but you have the ability and I'm not flattering you. I'm being honest to turn it to where it makes a guy like me, hey, it's like a kaleidoscope. I've never seen this. I've never thought about it this way before. I've never seen that.

That helps me understand that person's perspective better, which I think is one of the strengths of the podcast. Well, thank you, man. I appreciate that. But I want to talk about you, not me. Well, thank you, man. I appreciate that. But I want to talk about you, not me. So you wrote this book, How to Deal with How You Feel, Managing Emotions That Make Life Unmanageable. I would assume, given the nature of this book, the title, and in light of the times, was this birthed out of the last couple of years? And I think that's all I need to say. I mean, when you say last couple of years, people kind of know what I'm getting at. years of, and I think that's all I need to say. I mean, when you say last couple of years,

people kind of know what I'm getting at, but it's been a pretty tumultuous time for society and the church. What led to you writing this book? And then I would love to get your thoughts on just where are we at as a church in America? Sure. Well, yes, you pinpointed it. I mean, as I was telling you earlier before we got started here, you know, this year I'll be, I'll be hit seven, seven decades on this planet. And I will tell you, I've never seen emotion and the emotional spectrum as wide as I see it today. I've never seen emotional tension as high as I see it today. The things I talk about in the book, just to take the one chapter, just anger. I mean, people are just angry. They're angry about politics. They're angry about, you know, the economy. They're angry about, you know, morality. They're angry about, you know, I've just never seen it. I was telling you that, you know, the day when you could have a healthy political debate without it turning so vitriolic, you lose a

friendship over it. I didn't know that as a kid. Today, I have seen as a pastor, friendships destroyed over one political candidate, just one candidate, not just a policy, just even a candidate. Just one candidate, not just a policy, just even a candidate. And so, you know, it was out of that. And then there's a, you know, we obviously were under psychologists are saying there's a stress epidemic in America. I am seeing more personal bitterness in my flock and people dealing with bitterness and guilt that I've seen since I've been a pastor. So I do believe that, you know, hopefully the book will be a help to so many people because I deal with, there's a gamut, you know, depression, loneliness, stress, guilt, bitterness, anger, jealousy. It's all out there.

But the beautiful thing, Preston, is to know that the God that created us and gave us emotions, but we didn't manufacture emotions. We were created with emotions. Jesus was emotional, as you know, and God has feelings. God has feelings. So the same God that created us also has given us advice to how to live in such a way that our emotions don't control us, but we control our emotions. And that's, that's where the book was born. Why do you think it is that it's so different now? It's so vitriolic that, you know, 20 years ago, you could have a political debate, but very vigorous one, like very, you know, go out, but then you don't think the other person's like evil. You just think they're wrong and they have a bad

policy and a bad whatever. But like, you don't think like they're just a horrible, horrible person necessarily. But now I feel like no longer is the other side, whatever that even means, bad policy and a bad whatever but like you don't think like they're just a horrible horrible person necessarily but now i feel like no longer is the other side whatever that even means no longer do i disagree with them no longer do i think they're wrong but i think that they're like evil and immoral and it's they're fostering injustice for everything they stand for it seems like but like where did that come from like what, why? Well, I'll give you, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a cultural expert, but I'll give you that answer. But I'll also give you, just spiritually speaking, you know, we're all born jacked up.

Everybody's, we're just all jacked up in different ways. We were born with a sinful nature. You know, every parent knows you don't have to teach a child to lie. You got to teach a child to tell the truth. You don't have to teach a child to share with his brother. You've got to teach a child not to be sad. We're all born that way. We're all born jacked up. So just from a spiritual standpoint, not really surprised. Conflict's been with us forever. I will tell you, though, this is my other side of the analysis, Preston. I believe that we have become such an individualistic society.

It's all about me. It's all about I. And so now everything's personal. It doesn't matter what everything's personal. I tell our church, I've got a very diverse church. We're very diverse racially. We're diverse politically. I've got Republicans.

I've got Democrats. I've got independents. I've got libertarians. But one of the creeds we live by in our church is this, two things. Number one, when you walk into the doors of our church, you don't bring politics with you. I don't preach politics in the pulpit. I don't endorse people. It's all about the Bible, the gospel, and Jesus. That's what you're going to get. You want to go out in the parking lot, talk politics, talk about it all day long. Not here. That's number one. Number two, we do not make the political personal. Okay.

That's a golden rule. We don't make the political personal. And now everything is personal, everything, because it's all about the individual. Well, the more you focus on you, which we now do to the exclusion of others, the more sensitive we are, the more hypersensitive we are, the more we take anything as a slight. So here's a great example. We were talking about it in our staff. I'm doing a series.

This is a little bit off the beat path. It's an answer to your question. I'm doing a series, about to do a series on the seven churches of Revelation. So I just finished a message on the church of Pergamum, and it's interesting. One of the problems that church faced was they were being lied—the Greek word is scandalized—they were being scandalized by the Jewish community in the synagogue of Satan. What was happening was the Jewish community, they were lying about Christians to the Roman authorities. They were saying they were atheists

because they would not confess Caesar as Lord. They were saying that they were against the Roman government. They wanted to bring it down. And they were telling all kinds of lies, which really weren't true. So today, for example, if I say, or you say, we believe that God's word teaches that sex should be only between a man and a woman within the confines of marriage. If that's all you say, automatically, with a large segment of people now, you're intolerant, you're homophobic, you're judgmental, you're hateful, you're narrow-minded, you're unloving. You're uncompassionate. None of those things may be true at all. None of them. But you say just one statement because we so hyper elevated the individual in society today. It goes even to your book that you wrote, you know, that now with the and, you know, one of the things I love about you, the church has done a real poor job. This is a rabbit to chase, but the church has done a super poor job with being compassionate toward the LGBTQ community and people who are marginalized.

I get it. And I don't want to be that way. OK, I want to make that very plain. Instead, on the other hand, as you point out in your book, now we've gotten to the point where we're so individualized that we have now allowed feelings to triumph over fact. So a good example, the fact may be that genetically and biologically you were born a male or a female. That may be the biological fact. But now we said it doesn't matter. biological fact. But now we said, it doesn't matter. If I feel like I'm not a man or feel like I am not a woman, then the feeling should triumph back. But when you even just on that one elementary level say, well, wait a minute, let's examine that. All of a sudden, you just face unbelievable anger and vitriol and misunderstanding and so forth. So my own personal answer and opinion to your question is we have so hyper, hyper lifted up the individual and it's all about me and all that matters.

So, you know, what's true for you may not be true for me, even though it's true. Well, if truth is true, true for you and me, whether you like it or not, but that's not where we are as a society today, in my opinion. How big is your, you founded the church over 20 years ago, right? The church you're pastoring now? Yeah. And you said it's diverse. I mean, that's, how did you guys handle, especially the political diversity?

I mean, so I guess you kind of said like, we're not going to bring it in here, but it's one thing to say that, like the last couple of years, people didn't care. They were going to fight tooth and nail. Did you have disruption and tension with the church? No, let me tell you what we did, believe it or not. People didn't care. They were going to fight tooth and nail. Did you have disruption and tension in the church? No. Let me tell you what we did, believe it or not. First of all, it's not what we did and what we didn't do. First of all, one of the reasons we're diverse, we live in a very diverse area.

You know, Atlanta's very diverse. We've got a large contingent of African-Americans in our community, Koreans, a lot of Koreans in our community, a lot of Indians in our community. And so, of course, we've got Anglo-Saxons. So just by the fact you try to reach your community, you're going to do that. But here's what we do. This is the only thing we do that somebody might even consider political, but it's not. I started the church in 2003. So beginning in 2004, the Sunday after the presidential election, we get on our knees

as a congregation and pray for the president-elect. So we prayed for Bush. We prayed for Obama. We prayed for Trump. We prayed for Biden. And everybody knows we're going to do it. We pray for them, right? And then the second thing is I just occasionally, just by what I not do, what I don't do is the preaching politics. And then occasionally, just I'll probably say it at least eight times a year to our people. So, hey, remember this. Like, for example, if I'm next year, I will be preaching on some of these issues, the transgender issue, the gay marriage issue, the abortion issue. I've told our people up front, this is not political.

I'm not going politics. So just take that out of it. We're just going to go to what I believe God's word teaches about these issues. But I will remind you, we do not make the political personal. We've hammered it to our people. So that's really ingrained into our culture. It's what we've done, Preston. Because when I reflected on some churches that just seemingly out of nowhere just kind of exploded, and all of a sudden there's all this tension, people are leaving, fighting, families being broken up. I wondered if there could have been maybe some pre-discipleship

happening before things got so heated so that people didn't put their allegiance in one side or the other. They didn't see the other person as evil. I just feel like there was just kind of like slow flame building of this hyper-politicalization of, or hyper-tribalism, if you will. It's one thing. Sure, people are going to land on different sides, whatever. But I feel like there's this slow cook where people just found more and more of their allegiance in one side or the other. They started only listening to this news outlet, that news outlet, which more and more became

more vitriolic and more anger-driven. It just seemed like a slow cook. Then once you get to the kind of Trump era, whatever, it just was bound to just explode. So it sounds like you were already laying some foundational themes in people's lives long before it hit that moment. Yeah, and Preston, I'm going to say something that might make some of my pastor buddies mad.

That's okay. But I'm going to take – I'm going to sound like Preston Sprinkle here for just a moment. And I say that with respect. I'm going to take, I'm going to sound like Preston Sprinkle here for just a moment. And I say that with respect. I'm so nervous. Preston, what I'm afraid, it's one thing to start a fire. It's another thing to pour kerosene on it. I'm firmly, and I've told my church this, I steadfastly refuse to put anything ahead of the gospel.

And I steadfastly refuse to do anything that would be a stumbling block to the gospel. And I'm not calling out anybody. I'm not judging anybody. I'm just telling you how I'm doing it in my own ministry. I am theologically conservative to the core. You know that. I am politically conservative to the core. Not ashamed of it.

Don't mind anybody knowing that. I am politically conservative to the core, not ashamed of it. Don't mind anybody knowing that. At the same time, I refuse to put politics, any particular candidate at all, before the gospel. The gospel is the most important thing to me. And I want to conduct myself, and even in what I say from the pulpit, I want to do it in such a way that the most rabid Democrat or the most rabid Republican would not be afraid, in fact, would want to come hear me preach, because they know that I'm not going to put any kerosene on the fire that would cause them to take their eyes off of the cross and off of the gospel and off of the need for, I'm just not going

to do that. Again, I'm not taking a shot at anybody else. I don't have to answer for anybody else. I'm just not going to do that. And I've just steadfastly maintained that. And that's why in our church, we just don't have those. The last thing I'm concerned about in my church is just what you said has happened to other churches, because there's no oxygen in the room. If the fire even got started, it'd be put out. There's just no oxygen in the room for that. What about, you said your church is fairly multi-ethnic given the neighborhood that it's in. Because during the last couple of years,

a lot of racial tensions and stuff that did that. Was that, did those flare up in your church or did you weather those similar to the political tension? I'll give you a great example of that. I'm not saying this to brag on me or our church. When the George Floyd incident happened, right after that, I took a Sunday. I did a, I had a, on the stage,

I brought two of our African-American men up in our church who are two of our African-American leaders. And I said to them, point blank, I said, you know, I said, I'm going to get, I'm going to lay cards on the table and get the elephant out of the room. I said, I hate what happened with George Floyd. You know, I freely admit anybody that says they never had a prejudicial thought in their heart, they're lying through their teeth. I've had prejudicial thoughts. We all have. Racist in the classical definition,

I'm not a racist. I wasn't raised to be a racist. I'm not a racist in the classical sense. That said, I said to these two men, I said, I want you to do something for our church. I'm not a black man and I will never be black. And I'm going to tell you right up front, I will never know what you went through growing up. Tell me what it was like. Tell us what it was like to grow up black. I'll give you a good example. You have children, right, Preston? Yeah, four, yeah. All right. So your kids will grow up one day and they're going to drive a car. When my three boys, when I taught my boys how to drive, the one thing I never, ever said to them, never thought about saying to them, now, if you get pulled over by a cop, you put your hand on the steering wheel, you, you know, boy, you have just whatever they tell you to do, never occurred to me.

Both of these men said they were taught, they taught their kids, if you get pulled over by a cop, especially, and I'm not, listen, we have cops in our congregation, I love police officers, I want to make that plain, but they felt like they had to do that. It's just one example of growing up black I never thought about. I never knew what it was like to have to drink from a separate water fountain. I don't know what it's like that I had a great, great, great grandfather that was owned by the man's great, great grandfather who lived down the street. I don't know what that is like. So we were just talking about theology in the wall.

This was more feelings than I said, I want you to tell us. It was one of the best things we've ever done. And they were great about it. They said, look, Christ changed our life. We know he's the only answer. But there was an understanding there that I want our people to have. So people, particularly African American community, were super appreciative that instead of coming up and taking the tack of, hey, that's an outlier. We're not all bad, blah, blah. I just said, hey, guys, I know how I've responded to the George Floyd. Tell us as a black man, how have you responded to it? It was so eye opening and so very enlightening.

And you didn't. Did you have any fallout from the other side, like white conservatives that got defensive or whatever? No, it was... Not a bit. That's great. I really did. Wow.

No, it was awesome. You're the best searcher we've ever had. It's one of the most watched searches we've ever had online. It was awesome. It was great. People still talk about it. Are you formally part of the Southern Baptist? Is your church the Southern Baptist?

I better be because I was president of the convention for two years, so I better be. Yeah, I was actually president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Preston, from 2000 to 2002. So before you planted this church, okay. Yes, sir. Yeah. In fact, just as soon as I got through in 2002, the next year is when I planted this church. Okay. But where our church is, Southern next year is when I planted this church. But where our church is, Southern Baptist, now here's the interesting thing.

You wouldn't know it. We don't, not ashamed of it, we just don't publicize it because frankly, right now, our Southern Baptist brand's not as high as we'd like for it to be. I call it like it is. I believe in the Southern Baptist Convention. I love the convention. I'm a sold out Southern Baptist. I think the good that we do far outweighs the bad that we've gone through. But our church is called Crosspoint, not Crosspoint Baptist.

We're just Crosspoint Church. But full disclosure, if you came to our church and joined our church in our first class, we let you know we're Southern Baptists. We don't hide it. Not ashamed of it. And we adhere to what we call the Southern Baptist faith and message. But, yeah, I'm a strong part of the SBC, yes. Well, since you brought it up, I'm curious, could you go a little deeper in kind of the SBC, what they've been going through the last few years? I know it hasn't been easy.

I talked to J.D. Greer was on the podcast right when the report came out. I had a survivor on as well. Do you feel like you guys are, were you on the journey? Like, do you feel like it's going to keep getting more difficult before it gets better? Or is there a lot of really healthy, for lack of better terms, house cleaning happening? Or for those of us who aren't SBC, give us a little insight on how you guys are doing. Well, to quote my mentor, Dr. Adrian Rogers, God rest his soul, the answer to your questions are yes, put simply. I think, you know, first of all, if you're wondering about Southern Baptists, we're like any other family.

We love each other deeply, but we fight at times and we feud at times and we disagree at times. And we have strong opinions. And that's just who we are, Southern Baptists. I don't know what's going to happen in the intermediate future. I think things may get a little bit worse before they get better. The flip side of that is I have tremendous enthusiastic hope and confidence in our future. We've got a lot of tremendous, like JD's one example, we've got a lot of tremendous young leaders that are coming up through the ranks. We're seeing more young people at our convention than I've seen in a long time. I love the fact that we are still, we have six of the largest seminaries in America, all strongly evangelical, committed to the inerrancy of

scripture, committed to what I'd call the basics or the fundamentals of the faith. We have the largest mission force of any denomination in America. We've got over 6,000 missionaries. We've got over 6,000 missionaries on the field. There's so many great things going. We are the bedrock of conservative evangelical theology. So I'll tell anybody, you know, on the outside, all you're going to get is the bad news. But every bit of bad news you get, I'll give you three pieces of good news. So right now, the way I would call it, yeah, the current's pretty rocky out there. The waves are

pretty high right now. The boat's getting rocked pretty good. But we're not going to sink anytime soon. We're not going anywhere. We're going to weather this storm. And I think down the road, we're going to be better for who we are and what we're trying to accomplish. Are things being dealt with in terms of the abuse allegations? And I don't know all the details, and I'm not going to pretend I know. No. And I'll give you maybe too much information. And by the way, J.D. is to be commended, did a fantastic job as our president and led the way, led the charge in this whole area. As you know, we had a task force that was appointed to engage in this.

We engaged a guidepost to help us get to the bottom of what actually went on. Our track record in some of those areas was not good, to put it very mildly. But the beautiful thing is we were mature enough as a denomination to admit, you know what, we messed up over here. We can't, you know, we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. We can get a new tube of toothpaste. And so what we've done is we put procedures in place and policies in place and abilities now to track abuse and to make sure that churches are aware of people out there who have been guilty of those kind of things. We have done our best to try to ask forgiveness for victims that did the right thing.

They reached out. Unfortunately, they were either rebuffed outright or they were handled with less than the respect they should have been. You know, guilty as charged. We've admitted that as a denomination. So, you know, I think overall it's going to be a, I think, no doubt, it's going to be a net positive for us. Publicity hasn't been all that good. We understand that part. A lot of that has been self-inflicted and deserved, quite frankly. But we are't been all that good. We understand that part. A lot of that has been self-inflicted and deserved, quite frankly. But we are trying to flip the narrative. And we have been, by a lot of the public, at least commended the fact that we've not only

admitted the problem, but we've taken concrete, practical steps to make sure the problem doesn't happen again. And again, kudos to JD and some of the key leaders that helped make that happen. What do you say to people? I think I got some responses on social media when I had JD on. And to be clear, no matter what podcast I release, I get criticism no matter what, as you can imagine. Get in line, my man. Somebody liked the one on Monday, but they didn't like the Thursday one. And the next email is, I like the Thursday one, but not the one on Monday. It's just like, change the channel if you're not excited about this interview and the next one or whatever. But one of the things, at least maybe on social media, when JD came on, and it might have been from a survivor,

they said, it's painful to listen to to because it's too little too late. He may have been well-intended and everything, but like for somebody who had to live for years where it wasn't being dealt with, it's hard for me to hear like, oh, we're doing everything great now, you know, which I didn't hear JD. I heard JD speaking with a lot of humility and repentance and saying, no, we, yeah, we didn't do everything right. We did lots of things wrong, period. Like that was in like, we own that. I, all we can do is keep apologizing and keep pushing forward and doing better. Um, I didn't hear him at all candy coating the past and I'm not, and the critics, I don't think we're trying to say he was candy. You know, it's just when somebody has gone through such a horrific experience for years and years and years where leaders are either negligent or guilty, it's hard to – I don't know. I can only imagine what that's like. What would you say if somebody said no matter what you do, it's too little too late? It's a great question.

It's a fair question. And let me just say it kind of goes back to not being a white guy. I'm not a woman. I It's a fair question. And let me just say, it kind of goes back to, you know, not being a white guy. I'm not a woman. I've never been sexually abused. I'd be one of the sexually abused, but I'm not going through what some of these sexual abuse victims went through. I understand on the one hand, there will always be the sad regret that too little too late may be for them, hopefully. too little, too late, maybe for them, hopefully. But I would hope that rather than dwell on what wasn't done, they can at least take solace in the fact that what wasn't done spurred us to do what we should have done and what we are doing now. And hopefully they'll realize, I know it was a high price to pay, but at least knowing that they are a part of making sure as much as possible, knowing that they are a part of making sure as much as possible this never happens again.

So it's kind of like the mom that loses a child to a drunk driver. You can cry in your suit and you can dwell on it or you can say, you know what, I think I'm going to form an organization called MAD. I think I'm going to do something about drunk drivers. No, ma'am, I get it. It won't bring your little boy, little girl back. And I'm so sorry. But who knows how many lives you will have saved, even though it came at a high price, how many lives were saved because of your courageous action. So, you know, I want to sound flippant when I say this, Preston, so I hope you don't get any bad feedback on this. Something beats nothing. And yes, I know it may be too little. It may be

still too little. Maybe we're not done yet. But I don't know that I'd say it's too late. It may be too late for you in the past. It is not too late for people today and people tomorrow. And I hope people would really focus on that. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah, you know, yeah, golly. If you go back to your time as president, like was there stuff going on that was just, just wasn't brought to light at that time? Like if you're going to go back and be president again, like 20, knowing now what you know, what would you have done? Anything different?

I don't even know what was going on with your president, but. Well, obviously, you know, for me for me it probably would have been so much it wasn't talked about much in this area of course i one of my favorite sayings preston is uh everybody's an all-american monday morning quarterback yeah yeah i'm going to give you an answer a little bit different the thing i would have probably given even more attention to is the whole racial situation okay and and and given more attention to diversifying the leadership okay and the participation in our convention, which we've not had a good track record on either while we're on the topic.

But the direct answer to your question is, no, I'm not saying that sex abuse did go on. That obviously would be foolish. But it wasn't to the forefront. There was no, you know, what's the me movement? What's it called? Yeah, Me Too. There was no, you know, what's the, what's the me movement? What's it called? Yeah, Me Too. There was no Me Too movement back then. It wasn't on the radar screen. Doesn't, doesn't mean it was, wasn't out there, just was on the radar screen. So, in fact, I got interviewed by Guidepost. There was nothing that came, and I was chairman of the executive committee too, by the way, back in the day. Nothing came before me as

president. Nothing came before my time as, as, as, as the chairman of the executive committee. There was nothing that was swept under the rug. It just wasn't out there at all. So, you know, obviously even knowing what I know now, I'm not sure I would change that aspect of it very much because it just, you know, it wasn't really in the, you know, in the forefront. But, you know, to your point, there are people, unfortunately, that have to live with the fact that they do have to look back and they have to own their junk and they have to realize, I blew it, didn't do what I should have done. And, you know, at that point, all you can do is do a mea culpa and, you know, I'm point, all you can do is do a mea culpa and, you know, I'm sorry, guilty. Hey, I can't do anything about that, but I can do something

now. I'm going to do it. That's what we're trying to do. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So you're hopeful? Very, very, very hopeful. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why two things make me hopeful. Number one is our theology. Number two is our, is our purpose and our mission. We are about the Great Commission. We're not doing a very good job of it, but one thing Southern Baptists have always been known for is evangelism. And I'm highly evangelistic and try to be. So those two things, as long as we stay by the book and we just stand by, you know, good, what I believe is biblical, conservative theology, and we preach the truth and preach the whole counsel of God, and live that out by being compassionate to the marginalized,

loving to those who are outside the flock, and doing all we can to carry out the Great Commission, I will always be hopeful about who we are. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So you just said you're turning 70 this year. I am. 20 years in your current church plant have been, you've been around the block. When you look forward to the next like three to five years, I feel like we're just in this weird space of every month there's a new

huge news event that just is terrible and disruptive. And we got another election coming up, you know, it's like, who knows what that's going to do to the church. And like, what do you, um, what, what, what makes you excited for the next five to 10 years? Um, and, and what makes you a little bit like, oh man, we, we got to get our stuff together as we enter into this next season as a, as a church in, in America, if that makes sense. Like, what are some things you feel like are maybe making me not nervous.

I mean, we got the power of Jesus and the gospel, but a little nervous. Like, you're kind of like, Oh man, like this, you know,

kind of like a ship getting ready for a couple of big waves coming. It's like, all right, here we got to get ready for this, you know? And what are some things that you maybe are just super excited about what the future holds? Well, let me, let's, let's do the negative first. Let the negative first. Let's take the tails and we'll take the heads.

I'm not scared. I'm not really nervous, but I think that we all should be, and this is biblical, we all should be concerned. Jesus was concerned. Paul was concerned. Peter was concerned. We all ought to be concerned. I'm very concerned about the culture and where the culture is going. I'm very concerned. I mean, and again, I'm not trying to pick on any one issue, but who would have dreamed that you would have to worry that as a parent of a first or second or third grader, first or second or third grader, that you'd even, there'd even be a debate that just because a boy thinks he's a girl, he can walk into your granddaughter or you're walking to your daughter's bathroom at school. Who would even think that would be debatable? I'm just being honest. I mean, I'm not, I can talk about other things, but you know, Philip Howard wrote a book called The Death of Common Sense.

And you just take scripture, just take scripture out of it. The rejection of just common sense in our society is just mind boggling to me. I do believe, you know, I say this all the time, you know, when Ben Franklin came out of the Constitutional Convention, you may know the story, Preston. I'm a big love history. A lady saw him on the street and she said, well, Mr. Franklin, what did you accomplish? And he said, what have you given us? And he said, a republic if you can keep it. Well, if two people in a perfect garden couldn't keep the garden, what makes us think we're going to be able to keep what we've got?

So, you know, when you read 2 Timothy 3, Paul said, in the latter days, difficult times are going to come. So I don't think things are going to necessarily get better for the church in America. I don't. I don't. Unless there's a great awakening. I think in one. So here's the bad news. It's going to get darker culturally in America, darker spiritually, in my opinion. I'm not pessimist. I'm realist. Here's the good news. The darker the night, the brighter the light. And I know deep down that the church will prevail because Jesus said it would. And here's what I think is happening. You asked this before we got on the broadcast. Let me tell you what I think is happening in the church right

now more than I've ever seen it. I think COVID, Preston, accelerated it. And I'd like to ask your opinion, see if you agree with me. I think the church is being sifted. I think we're finding out right now who's really sold out to the church, Who's really committed to the church? I was talking to our church yesterday, preaching on being born again. You know, I said, there are a lot of people, I told a little joke about a man that, this is worth hearing. There was a man that used to be with his wife. He just nagged his wife, berated his wife, criticized his wife. He was just always on his wife's case all the time. And so she just drove her nuts. Well, one day they came home from church and he told his wife, he says, hey, I've been

born again. And she said, oh, that's great. That's wonderful. But nothing changed. He kept berating his wife and criticizing his wife and nagging his wife. Finally, one day she looked at him. She said, you know, I'm glad you've been born again. I just wish you had not been born again as yourself.

And Preston, I think there are a lot of people that have been born again as themselves. When you're born again, there's a difference. I was born again in a movie theater as a nine-year-old boy in a theater. I didn't understand all that happened to me when I literally in the middle of the movie asked Christ into my heart. But Preston, I knew the kid that walked out wasn't the kid that walked in. I knew my life was different. And I told our people, I said, you know, I'm not saying good works has nothing to do with being born again. I'll make that plain. I said, on the other hand, if you're really born again, I don't think I'd have to beg you to come to church. If you're really born again, I don't think I'd have to beg you to come to church. If you're really born again, I don't think I'd have to beg you and put you on a guilt trip to financially support God's work. If you're really born again, I don't think I'd have to

nag you about sharing Jesus with other people. So the point I'm making is, you know, right now, we're battling the same thing other churches have. Our online attendance is outstripping our in-person attendance. And a lot of that in-person, a lot of that line of attendance, we know they live five miles from our church, but it's the day of the online attender. Well, I tell people this, we're not going to Zoom heaven, Preston. You're not going to online heaven. And if there's not enough in your Christianity to make you want to physically assemble with believers and be a part of a body of believers and get to know fellow believers and be an encouragement

to other believers, if there's not enough in your Christianity to want to do, assuming you're physically able, to want to do that, what makes you want to go to heaven? Because we're not going to be able to separate from each other in heaven. We're not going to be going to a little coveyore. We're going to be together forever in resurrected bodies. So I believe the church is being sifted, and we're really being finding out. And I'm finding this out now. We're finding out who really was committed to the church

and who really just showed up at church. And I think that's what's happening. Let me push on that a little bit, because theologically I agree with a lot of that, if what's happening. Let me push on that a little bit because theologically, I agree with a lot of that. If it's happening, like so obviously if going to church, if you're being known and knowing others, you're being loved and you're engaging in meaningful, like in-depth, authentic conversations. Like humans, we're not designed to live alone. We're not designed to be Christians alone. We're designed to live in community. And I know nothing about your church, so I'm really speaking abstractly here. But if somebody is hungering for that, if they're

hungering for challenging, meaningful teaching, authentic worship, meaningful, authentic relationships, any genuine Christian should be, I think, hungering for relationships. Any genuine Christian should be, I think, hungering for that. The problem is, as a congregant on the other side, in my experience, that's pretty rare that I actually get that in churches. I've been to many churches here in Boise, and we've lived in different parts of the country. And there's times I'll go, I was at one church for over a year. I had preached several times. My wife was helping out the youth group. And for whatever reason, I think we were gone, um, for like six weeks in the summer.

It was a small church, 250 people. And when we came back, nobody even knew we were gone. Nobody even like, Hey, where were you? Whatever. Like, and if we don't make an effort in certain, I'm not thinking of any one particular church, but there's been contexts where it's like, you know, um, if I don't go out of my way and make an effort and digging in somebody's life, like it'll just not happen. And there's times when I just feel, you know, I'm just kind of exhausted. I've been speaking all week in three different States. So I show up on, you know, come home on Friday night, show up on church on Sunday. And he said, you know what? I'm going to let somebody else make the effort this time.

show up on church on Sunday and he'd say, you know what? I'm going to let somebody else make the effort this time. And it's crickets. It's like, I go, I hear a message that sometimes it's okay. You know, it's like, I work hard to kind of follow what they're trying to say. The worship, nobody's really into it. Nobody even makes an effort with me. And then I go home and I'm like, well, what, like, if I really asked a hard question, what, what was that? You know? Cause I, again, I want to dig into people's, I want people to dig into my life. I want to, if my wife and I had a huge fight the night before, I would love to come to church and have within minutes, somebody like checking up on us, you know, or like digging into my, I want that. There's many church or let me just say for people

that have that kind of experience that are hungering for something meaningful, but just are not getting that. I could hear them pushing back and saying, well, yeah, but my church experience doesn't have all the things you're saying that I should be hungering for. I am hungering for that as a believer, just not getting a church. So after a while, they're kind of like, why show up when I'm just going to show up and have a couple of superficial conversations, hear a message that I don't really understand and go home. How do you deal with that?

Well, believe it or not, I totally agree with what you're saying, and so I want to make something plain. There's a difference between going to church or attending a church and getting involved in a church on the congregant side. On the other side, to your point,

I would say if your church is not offering, let me take my, give you my church. We're not a great, perfect church, but I'll tell you about our church. So our mission statement is to point people to Jesus and inspire them to live the cross-shaped life. Okay. Everybody knows our mission statement. But what does the cross-shaped life mean? We, every week, we want our people to do four things. We want to be in worship, disciple, serve, and send.

We want people to be involved in worship, be involved in a corporate worship and practice private worship. Discipleship. We want people to learn how to walk with God, have a quiet time, have a walk with the Lord, but get involved in community.

Our discipleship's done in small groups. We provide that opportunity. We want people to serve. We teach you, we'll work with you to find your that opportunity. We want people to serve. We teach you. We'll work with you to find your spiritual gift. Find a place to serve in our community. And then we do not want you to leave your Christianity at the church. You are sent.

We want you to go live the Christian life, share the gospel. Now, here's my point. If the church is not providing those opportunities and doing everything they can to grease the own ramp to do that, that's on the church. From a pastor's perspective, what frustrates me is we hammer it week after week after week, and we still got most people that don't serve. Most people don't, you know, a lot of people don't get involved in a small group. You know, they come and they don't even sing the songs when they come.

So I think it's a different side of the same. Yeah. So my point is this. If you say, you know, here's a good example. If you're a church, if you go to a church and you're gone six weeks and nobody knew you were there, if you only go to church and all you did was sit, maybe you sat in different places for six weeks and nobody knew you were there. If you only go to church and all you did was sit, maybe sit in different places for six weeks, that's not too surprising, even on a church. But if you were involved in a small group and nobody in your small group noticed you were gone

for six weeks, that's a problem. Or if your church did not provide a small group environment, problem. Or if your church did not provide a small group environment, that's a problem. So I think it's a both and. What I'm seeing more and more is even in a church like ours, in fact, we're going on staff retreat two weeks to really talk about those four things. How can we increase real, true participation in worship? How can we get more people involved in more small groups? How can we get more people finding a place to serve, putting their spiritual gift to work? And how can we motivate more people to go on mission trips, be involved in sharing? How can we do that? Once we do all we can, then it falls back on the individual congregants to say, okay, now I've got to take advantage of this situation. I've got to be in community.

I need to find a place to serve. I need to engage in worship, and I need to be sharing my faith. We ask a question of our congregation every Sunday. Who's your one? Who's that one person that's lost? Who's that one person you're praying for? Who's that one person you're having a gospel conversation with? Who's that one person you're trying to build a spiritual bridge to?

We ask it every week. So, you know, if a church is not doing that, that's on the church. But if a church is doing that, then all we can do, you can give the horse the water, but you can't make him drink, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. It's such a hard question. A lot of it does depend on the air, the culture that's created from the church. It's hard to even identify this. Like I've been part of small groups that are vibrant and meaningful and, and, and, you know, but a lot of that is dependent. It kind of, there's enough people that were meaningful and, and authentically following Jesus. They created this kind of culture of this is what the small group is about.

I've been a part of other small groups where, yeah, go a year without them even having a clue. I've been a part of other small groups where, yeah, go a year without them even having a clue what I do for a living really. Or like, or they, maybe in one year that I've been asked like two personal questions, you know, like, so just being in a room with 10 other people for a long period of time doesn't necessarily guarantee depth and meaningfulness. And then that's, and I don't know.

I mean, that's because the church, all the church can really do is create the opportunities. Like you said, they can't force people to be meaningful and care. They can't, you know, or maybe they could, I don't know. Like maybe there is something, is there something the church could be doing? Maybe the modeling it on a leadership team to where if you came in here and you're, if you're part of this culture, this church culture for any number of weeks, and you're not like looking around and getting to know people, like it would just be awkward because they've, they've created this culture where that's what to be believers.

We are a family. You're my brother, you're my sister, you're my aunt, you're my mother. And we're going to, we're going to act like a family. And if you don't act like a family, this church is going to be weird. You're going to be like, oh, I don't, I just want to come and sit. And it's going to, you know, this is, might not be the place for me because I just want to come here and message and leave. So is that true? I mean, is it, is it kind of a, not just providing the opportunities, but creating a culture where it's just in the air,

you know what I mean? Like, or even worship, there's some, I sometimes ask myself, like, how come I could sit through one worship service and it's almost like hard for me to sing. sit through one worship service, and it's almost like hard for me to sing. I'm just like, and other worship services where I can't not sing. It's just exploding out of me. I can't put my finger on what was the difference. The music was good. The worship leader did whatever.

It's just there's something in the air almost where you just feel the authenticity in certain settings versus another. And I don't know if that's on the church to create that or if that's just what happened. I'll be honest. I think it's just being human. I think it's, look, there are Sundays I feel more like preaching than I do other Sundays. Sure. And, you know, I don't ever try to fake it, but I'm just saying there are some certain sermons I'm sometimes more excited about than others.

The thing, and I affirm everything that you're saying. The thing is, and I know you know this, Preston, but, you know, Dr. Rogers used to say, if you ever find a perfect church, don't join it. You'll ruin it. You'll ruin it, yeah. You know, and so there's no perfect church. I will tell you this. I want to go back to something you said, though, that really got my antenna up. Again, I'm not being critical.

I'm not throwing stones at anybody. I do believe, Preston, to your point, and this is a weakness. I think there's a dearth of real solid biblical preaching in the church. I do. I just think there's a dearth. I've said this before, and I don't mean it to sound ugly or unkind. I'm not sure I'd walk across the street to hear the average Baptist preacher preach. And I don't mean that to sound arrogant at all.

But, you know, my number one responsibility from everything I read in Scripture as a pastor is to preach the Word. That's my number one responsibility. And no matter what else I do or how well I do, it doesn't matter how many hospital visits I make, how many emails I send, how many phone calls I return, if you come to church on Sunday and you don't hear a word from the Lord, I mean fresh bread from heaven's oven, there's a problem. There's a big problem the Lord. Fresh, I mean, fresh bread from heaven's oven. There's a problem. There's a big problem. Dr. R.G. Lee, you probably never heard of him,

said great preaching overcomes a multitude of sins. And I believe that really is true. So I just say, you know, it is refreshing. I visited four churches. I take the month of July off every week, every year. And I went to four different churches. every week, every year. And I went to four different churches.

I heard two solid biblical messages from the word of God. One church, it was at the movies and it was movie clips and it was kind of biblical ammunition sprinkled in. Okay, that's fine. I'm not going to throw rocks at anybody. I'm just saying it wasn't the preaching of the word of God. And I just think there's a dearth of it today to be honest. I really do. Why is that?

I think it's a number of reasons. I think, number one, there's a lack of confidence that this Bible that I keep on my desk, I think there's a lack of confidence that this is what we need. Here's what I tell young preachers. You can have the most ornate, expensive lamp in the world. It may be an antique that cost you $100,000, but if you don't plug that lamp in, it won't do you any good. This is the power source. This is the plug. The more I tie my preaching to that book, the more powerful my message is going to be. Because the preaching doesn't reside in me. It resides in the book.

It resides in what I'm preaching. And I just think for some reason people think, yeah, but this is not enough. This really is not. Again, I'm not against, we show video clips. I'm not against all that stuff. We're a contemporary church. But at the end of the day, this is the power source. This is the book. And I'm going to be honest, and this goes against the grain of some guys,

and I won't call any names, but if you're going to do expositional preaching, you're going to work your rear end off. When I'm preparing these messages on the seven churches right now, you got to get at Smyrna. What's the big deal about Smyrna? What was so important about Smyrna? What was Laodicea? What was so important? When it says that the Jews lied about, you need to know that word scandalized.

One of the strongest words in the New Testament. They scandalized these Christians. Think about that. It's one thing to lie about somebody. That's kind of my own. I could tell a little white lie about you, but it wouldn't necessarily be a scandal. But if I scandalize you, I could cost you your ministry. I could cost you your family. I could cost you your reputation. Well, the word is scandal. Well, I don't know that if I'm not willing to get in there and dig out the gold that I've got to do my own pick and shovel. And a lot of pastors, they want to do that.

And they see themselves more as CEO entrepreneurs than they do shepherds of the flock and preachers of the word. That's my opinion. Would you call yourself, would you say you're an old school Southern Baptist preacher? Is that a negative word or would you,and I'm using that in a positive sense. I would surprise you. Yes and no. Yes, in the fact that—I mean, I don't yell, scream, spit, and I don't have oil in my hair, and I don't wear a black suit.

Yes, in the sense of I do believe in biblical exposition. I do believe whatever Jesus believed, I believe. So I believe in hell. I believe in heaven. If whatever I believe the Bible is clearly teaches clearly, I'm going to say clearly, I'm going to preach it. It's true. I'm going to preach the whole counsel of God. On the other hand, the way I dress right now is the way I preach. We have contemporary music. We use relevant up-to-date illustrations and, illustrations. And, you know, we're trying to

make sure people know we know what's going on in the culture. So, like I say, I got criticized when I started this church and didn't put Baptist in the name. Okay, I just got criticized. I got criticized because I said to the church, we started it, my number one goal is to reach the next generation. We're always going to be about reaching the next generation. So, you know, yes and no. But in the sense of, do I really believe that we have gotten away from really preaching the word? Paul said, Timothy, preach the word, not your opinion, not polls, not the latest story, preach the word. I think we've gotten away from that. Going back to why you're seeing less and less of that, do you think there, and this is a genuine question, I'm not trying to bait and switch, but do you think that there

is an assumption that if you do that, your church will shrink and not grow? Is there an assumption that we need to do something more, less hardcore biblical preaching because fewer people are going to be interested in that. I want to grow my church. I want to expand it and everything. If you're going to answer partly yes, I think there's actually a deeper hunger for more thoughtfulness and intricacy and power and meaningfulness in messages than less. I think there's more of a hunger for that. We live in an information age where people, I think, are hungering for just straight up knowledge.

They want to know what the truth is deep down. And if they have, if they see somebody who has clearly done the homework, they're not just a good rhetorician, but they have actually done the homework. They're trustworthy because they've shown

that they've examined different interpretive possibilities and they're trustworthy because they've shown that they've examined different interpretive possibilities and they're not afraid to talk about that. I think there's more of a hunger for that. So I don't know. There's kind of two parts to that. You asked a question, made a statement. I agree with your statement. What you just said, I totally agree with.

Okay. I do believe whether it's overt or subliminal, I think that there are a lot of people that are more interested in building a crowd than building a church. Okay. And I will give you one example. And there are churches out there and I can name them to you privately. When churches say there are certain issues we just do not touch. Right.

That's all. You said all I need to hear. You just told me you're not going to preach said all I need to hear. You just told me you're not going to preach the word of God. Just what you just told me. So just pick the issue. We're not going to touch

homosexuality. We're not going to touch abortion. We're not going to tell. We're not. We're not ever going to be controversial. A church doesn't have to go out of its way to be controversial

and should not go out of its way to be controversial. But if you preach this book, you're going to be controversial. And you know, everybody wants to talk about gentle Jesus, meek and mild. I just read the other day where Jesus said, by the way, I came to divide a mom from a daughter and a father from a son. And I do believe you're right. I think there is a hunger on the part of many out there. I just want to know what God's word says. On the other hand, we are kidding ourselves to think that if you preach on certain topics,

people are going to leave your church. Yep, they are going to leave your church. No matter how you can preach it in the most Christlike, compassionate way you can. But the moment we talk about you make certain statements, they're out the door. I don't want this. I don't want to hear this or whatever. So I do believe you're right. I think both things are true. I think on the one hand, there is a hunger. On the other hand, I think that there are a lot of pastors that you realize, you know what? You may not be the biggest in town. You may not be the brightest in town.

But as Dr. Rogers used to say, I love this statement. I quote him a lot. He said, there are a lot of people that can preach the gospel better than I can, but nobody can preach a better gospel than I can. And I think that if preachers will just say, you know, when I stand before God, I'll be honest with you, President, if I stand before God, if he at least says to me, James, you did preach the word, I'll be a happy cow. I'm good to go. Wow. Well, we kind of drifted far from your book. I did have some questions about some things in here.

Again, how to deal with how you feel. The one part that really struck me, I mean, a lot of things here, the loneliness piece. I dog-eared it because I want to come back. Oh, yeah. The present state of loneliness this is uh on page 20 uh 72 73 well this is a whole chapter actually on on loneliness but um this is my last question really because i gotta let you go but um what what has created and you've seen i think you've touched i mean i kind of think i know what you're going to say but what has, is this an epidemic? Is this a significant issue that's really stunting people's discipleship, this issue

of loneliness? And then my two-pronged question is what has, in your opinion, caused it? What is the solution? Yeah, you know, I'll say this may surprise you. I think if you're truly a disciple and you're trying to grow in your discipleship, I think you really probably don't have as much of a problem with loneliness as the person that I'm trying to really reach in the book. And that is, I think the biggest problem, and listen, you know this, I'll bet you there are more lonely people in New York City than maybe anywhere else in the world.

And it's the largest cities in the world. But I think that loneliness, the real source of loneliness for me is when you're isolated from God. You know, I say in the book, if you know Jesus, you may feel lonely, but you're not alone. you may feel lonely, but you're not alone. And so I think the root problem of loneliness today is, is, is, is, you know, we were all born separated from God. And, and, and, and that's why God said Jesus was to break down that barrier of separation that we might be reconciled and have a relationship with God.

And, you know, you can be sitting in the middle of a 50,000, you know, you can be sitting in the middle of a football game with 50,000 people. But if you went there by yourself and you don't know one person there, you can feel pretty lonely. At the same time, there is really a comfort. And this is not a ghost thing. There is a comfort to a believer that knows you've got the Spirit of God living in you. And knowing wherever you go, the Lord is watching over me. The Lord is with me. He will never leave me or forsake me. And that's why some of the sweetest times you can have as a believer is when you're alone.

You're not alone, but you're alone. But you're not alone because you're with Him. And so I just believe that's kind of the – but there really is, from what I'm studying, there is an epidemic of loneliness in our society today. I really do. And by the way, listen, I've enjoyed the time. Just so you'll know, what I'd say to people about the book, the one thing I'd say is this. I would almost challenge anybody to pick up just the contents of this book.

And you talk about stress, worry, anxiety, depression, fear, loneliness, jealousy, anger, bitterness, or guilt. I guarantee you all of us would pick up that book and go, that's the chapter for me. The chapter for me was anger. I talk about that in the introduction. The chapter for me was for anger. But I'll tell you, I'll leave you with this as we talk about anger. You know what I'm seeing as much in the church as I've ever seen as a pastor, Preston, I'm saying of all these emotions, I'm seeing guilt and I'm seeing bitterness, unresolved bitterness and undealt with guilt. And I'm seeing it more and more. So, you know, hopefully that, that, you know, when you pick up the book, this might be a book, might say, you know, I've never been to – I'm a pretty upbeat guy.

You know, I've been to this before. Okay, but you know what? I am jealous. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you, one of the biggest things pastors battle is jealousy. Pastoral jealousy. We do. Jealous of other pastors or better preachers or whatever? Absolutely.

Absolutely. Why am I not as big at all? So anyhow, but I just appreciate you having me on, and I hope people pick up a copy of the book. Hope it'd be a blessing to them. Well, thanks, James. It's great to see you face to face finally after all these years. So many blessings on your life and your ministry. And yeah, I really, really enjoyed the conversation. Well, just know we're long distance friends and brothers and I'm one of your best admirers, buddy. Thank you so much, man. It really means a lot. Appreciate you. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.