Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1013: #1013 - Women, the Gender of God, and the Warning Passages in Hebrews: Dr. Amy Peeler

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

Amy Peeler is a rock star New Testament scholar with a Ph.D from Princeton and who’s been teaching at Wheaton college for over 10 years. Amy is also the author of several scholarly books including You Are My Son: The Family of God in the Epistle to the Hebrews (2014), Hebrews: An Introduction and Study Guide (2020), and the forthcoming Women and the Gender of God (Oct 2022). In this conversation, we talk about her book Women and the Gender of God, wrestling with questions related to God’s non-sexed existence yet gendered revelation (if…that’s even the best way of framing it). God is not male; but he reveals himself as…himself, and Father, and King, and with He/Him pronouns. What does this mean? How should we think of God? Is he male, a man, masculine, or do these categories all fall short of God.  Oh, and we also wrestle with the notorious warning passages in Hebrews; namely, Hebrews 6 and 10. Dr. Peeler walks us through the Greek text and theological context of these difficult passages.  Learn more about Dr. Peeler from her personal website: http://amypeeler.com/index.html

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and become part of the Patreon-only Theology in the Raw community. All the info is on that link. My guest today is Dr. Amy Peeler. Amy is an associate professor of New Testament at Wheaton College. She has an MDiv and a PhD from Princeton Theological Seminary. She's the author of several books, including You Are My Son, The Family of God, and the Epistle to the Hebrews, Hebrews, an Introduction and Study Guide, and her forthcoming book, Women and the Gender of God, which is what we talked about for the first half of this podcast. The second half, we actually

wandered back into her primary area of expertise, the book of Hebrews, and specifically the warning passages, at least two of the main warning passages in Hebrews, Hebrews chapter six and Hebrews chapter 10. And that was fascinating to hear her perspective as one who's an expert in the book to help unpack what's going on in these somewhat troubling passages. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Dr. Amy Peeler. All right. Hey, friends. I'm here with Dr. Amy Peeler from Wheaton College. You've been there just around 10 years, right? That's right. Yes. And a very good place to be. I'm so grateful for

my work with students here. Everything I hear, like with the faculty that I know there, they really love, they love the school, but they always rave about the student body. They say they're just so fun to work with. Absolutely. I never have to. They have to take my class. They have to take New Testament. But they also really want to be there. So we have quite the grand adventure as we go through the text together because they're really all in.

That's great. Do you teach? I know your expertise is in Hebrews. I would imagine you teach more than just Hebrews. That's right. Yeah. So we all teach the New Testament intro. And I truly love that because then I get majors from across the campus and kind of walk through the whole story with them. Then I teach classes on Hebrews occasionally, but I also teach class on Mary with an art historian colleague. And we've done that for a number of years.

Interesting. So that's one of my other really enjoyable classes. I saw that you do have, that was kind of a spinoff of your early research and you got interested in Mary. Yeah, that's amazing. So let's jump into with your forthcoming book and maybe Mary will pop up in that conversation. She's a significant portion of that book. So yes. will pop up in that conversation. She's a significant portion of that book.

So yes. Well, perfect. So your fourth coming book is Women and the Gender of God coming out with Erdman's out of Grand Rapids in the fall, I believe, October, which... That's right. Yeah. So right around the corner.

Give us a snapshot of what that book's all about. And I would love to know what spurred you on to write it. Yeah, yeah. So actually, the title is quite interesting. The team who does titling, we went kind of around and around just because I couldn't quite land on what was right. This was the subtitle for quite a while. And I think it's really fitting because it does describe what's going on in the book.

My concern here is for women who might say, hey, it doesn't look like women have a big role in the story of the Bible. Where do we show up? I have a lot of young women who come in and say, this kind of seems like it's for guys. Maybe not quite that simple, but that's sometimes the undertone. So that's really a main focus. And I realized, you know, you can't do everything in one book. Like I'd love to speak to lots of other issues, but this is what I'm equipped to do for right now. But then paired with that are these questions about how do we address God? Like what are the names we use for God as given to us in scripture? And so the women

part is really focused on the story of Mary. There are three chapters in which I look at the Annunciation, I look at the Magnificat, look at her birthing of Jesus and then her faithfulness to his ministry. And then interwoven between those are these questions of, hey, God seems kind of male in the Bible, but yet we know that God is God and God is not a creature. And so what do we do with this? So I'm putting those conversations together. What can the story of the incarnation, really the center of the Christian faith, what can it contribute both to our knowledge of who God is and then specifically how women fit into the Christian calling? So that's a quick summary.

Maybe that stimulates other questions. Yeah, I got so many questions. So I mean, I've thought about that a lot. Like, so obviously, it should be obvious, but sometimes, and maybe even through art, through the history and everything, that the fact that God is not male, some people like, it's kind of shocking.

Like, oh, wait, but really? Like, well, yeah, he doesn't have male in that. He it really like well yeah he doesn't have male and that he's not biologically he doesn't have a biological sex how but and yet he's he is expressed through masculine pronouns he's called father um in the incarnation the son is the son not just an ambiguous human so yeah help us help us. Can you unpack that? I'm sure this is obviously part of your book, but how do we think through the gendered yet genderless God that we serve? Exactly. No, you've really hit the nail on the head there. I mean, anyone who's accustomed with Christianity will say, of course, I know that God is not male. And I, and I address that, even though, you know, we might have some drawings of this old white dude with

a beard. It doesn't take a whole lot of theological maturity to realize, okay, well, that's not really what we're asserting. Yet underneath that, I do think sometimes there's an assumption, maybe an unstated assumption. And as you know, unstated assumptions are the most dangerous ones that, yeah, okay, God is not male. But sometimes I think there's an assumption that men are a little bit more like God than women, that there is like at times a masculine preference for how we think about God. And that certainly comes through our language. So I want to, I kind of situate myself as someone who takes the Bible as my authority. I

want to be underneath that. So I want to attend to and really adopt the language that I think is given to us by God's revelation. So I absolutely use father for God, Lord, all the terms, absolutely assert that Jesus is male. But I do want to hold alongside there the affirmation that, as I stated earlier, God is God. God is not a creature. So we were talking about the triune God or God the Father. God is not embodied and therefore is not gendered. And interestingly, I think one of the clearest assertions of you get of that duality, both that God is Father, but that God is not male or doesn't have a preference for the masculine is in the story of the incarnation where God causes a

pregnancy, right? Joins with a woman to bring forth a son. That sounds a whole lot like what fathers do. And yet Matthew and Luke are so insistent to make sure that we understand that this is in no way a sexualized narrative. And so we get this assertion of God's intimacy with us, that we are called into the family of God. God is our father because he is father of Jesus Christ. And yet there really is no preference for masculinity or maleness in God as revealed in that account. Now, I realize that's kind of just some short sentences, so it takes a little space in a book to kind of dial that out. And as a New Testament person, I'm really rooted in the text. I have had such deep respect for how the evangelists attend to that story. So, I have heard people say, because God is not male, therefore we shouldn't use masculine pronouns or whatever.

Right. We should use gender neutral language to God. And I'm like, but the same, I don't want to oversimplify the concern. So maybe I'm missing something. But it seems that the same people who would be extra sensitive to people respecting people's pronouns it's like you're not bringing that to the text because god revealed himself through these pronouns as father and so we have if that's how he identifies it's on some way for us to say no we don't want to call god he but he said that's his pronoun. So I don't.

Right. Right. It is complicated. And as I've, um, so my dissertation was on the fatherhood of God in Hebrews. That's really what's interested in this whole subject. And so I've spoken about that in churches and things. And I've realized that for some people, this language for God, father, masculine pronoun is really a vote. I've had multiple people come up to me in tears and say, this is not simple. And so I have learned over the years, just as you've articulated, to be really sensitive to that, but yet to try to, if there's space for conversation, come back to the text and say, well, what's going on here? There's a few approaches here that I find unhelpful,

and just kind of to get those out of the way, and then I'll articulate what I think might be beneficial. Sometimes there is an assertion of let's use like kind of mixed pronouns for God, like occasionally masculine, and then especially you'll see development of, well, let's do a feminine for the Holy Spirit, because the terms in Hebrew and Greek are both feminine and neuter. I think that move actually assumes what, or it builds upon what I'm trying to deny. It's like, oh, really the father and son are really male and masculine. So let's sprinkle in a little femininity with the Holy Spirit. No, no, that's what we're trying to get away from. So I don't think that's helpful. I personally, and I'm still honestly working through this, which is a great lesson that

even if you spend some time working on a book, you still have lessons to learn. As I articulated, I think father language for God is exactly right. The way that God came to us, like the personalness of God, the intimacy with which God wants to be in relationship with us. All is communicated through fatherhood language, recognizing of course, that for some people, they don't have a good story, et cetera. But I think the text is not saying, Hey, look at your own dad.

And then think about God, right? That's a common air of projection. Uh, instead of saying, let's define who God is as father by the revelation of Christ. And that's how you understand fatherhood. But I still struggle a little bit, especially for masculine pronouns for God. It's not that I don't use them. In fact, I think in the last sentences I said, I use them, right? That's kind of my default, but I am attentive to it. And so if I can, especially in writing, I'll seek to find ways not to use them incessantly because I do worry that it kind of reiterates that

assumption that I was speaking of at the beginning. And so I'm a little less prone to use masculine pronouns for God, but absolutely want to use the language of fatherhood, God, Lord, all the descriptors that were given in scripture. And that's a hard road to walk. So I might need to find a better method as I move forward. Would you say, so like years ago, I realized that there were, you know, while God's, please correct if I'm using the wrong language here, but like God's sort of identity is revealed always, I think, through masculine terminology. I'm going to avoid masculine, male terminology. So father, he, he's never called she, he's never called, I don't think he's ever called mother, but he is described, his actions are sometimes described through the feminine. He is like a mother hen in Psalm 91, I think.

He's described as giving birth to Israel, I think, on some occasion. So there are some female metaphors describing the actions of God, but he's never described his identity as a mother, I don't think. Would that be an accurate understanding? Yeah, you're exactly right. And there's some excellent research that was out about 20 years ago, several volumes on the naming of God, the gender of God. And all of this was laid out really clearly, even one of the most recent articles in the naming of God, the gender of God. And all of this was laid out really clearly, even one of the most recent articles in the Journal of Biblical Literature, which is kind of the top shelf journal in my field, saying, look, there's all this masculine language.

So that's exactly right. Yeah, and so one thing that I noticed in doing this work is that while in the Old Testament, you do have a handful of references to God as father, father of Israel and especially father of the king. But that is not the most dominant image. Right. It's there a little bit, but it's not, you know, it's not explosive. And once you turn the page of the New Testament, once you I would assert that Israel's scriptures are God's revelation, but they are preparing us for the clarity of revelation in the Son. So really, the revelation

of the Son then becomes our lens through which we understand everything that's said about God. And so I apply this to fatherhood language. Absolutely, God was in an elective relationship with Israel Israel and that was beautiful and continues to be right. God's not giving up on that, but the, the, the mode or the way that we understand God's fatherhood is in Christ. And then it struck me, why do we, why does the new Testament only ever call God father, never mother, right? Some maternal metaphors. I was like, you know, that actually leaves a place. We don't need to call God Jesus's mother because Jesus already had one. Actually, by calling God father, there is this space left for, well, how do we know God

is father? Because a son came. And guess what? A son had a mother. He didn't just walk on this earth, a carte blanche, right? He had a mother. And so by saying father for God, if I understand the fullness of the incarnation, I'm actually saying, and there was a woman present in this story whom God invited into the story of salvation. So that's why, for multiple reasons, I wouldn't call God mother. But I think one reason that really encourages women who are part of the Christian faith is to say, well, this language is actually the most affirming of women because it reminds us of the role that Mary played at God's behest. Now, some people are going to be like my Protestant friends.

Yes, and I am fully Protestant. Most of my listeners, I would imagine, are going to be like, I don't know, I bet you got the father and then Mary, the mother, and like, are you elevating her too much? I'm sure you've got questions along those lines. How would you, yeah, maybe unpack that a little more. Sure, and I love those lines. So how would you, yeah, maybe unpack that a little more. Sure. And I love those questions. I know we don't know one another, but my personality is very non-confrontational. I just, you know, everybody let's be friends. And the funny

thing about this book is it's like I'm trying to create as much controversy as humanly possible. God and gender. And then, hey, let's stir up the Catholic Protestant debate as well while I'm at it. No, I think that's such a healthy concern to name. And if we look through the history of the church, there are times, of course, that Mary was elevated. And that often was paired with, hey, God is distant and wrathful and scary. And then Jesus becomes distant and wrathful and scary. But hey, Jesus's mom is probably nice, so let's turn to her. But alongside of some of those errors is a consistent witness of a really beautiful attention to Mary in which, and this is why I love teaching art history with my colleague, he will show us the icons. And in many of the icons, Mary is always pointing to Jesus. And that becomes our picture. Good study of Mary will draw you deeper and deeper into awe of God. And so no, she's never elevated.

In fact, if she was elevated, then that loses the impact for everyone else. Because if she's some kind of superhuman, then how God interacts with her has nothing to do with me and all other fallen people. But by retaining her humanity, again, God invited her and she said yes. I mean, there's a lot of faithfulness to celebrate in her, but she remains in her place and God remains God always. So yes, that's an important thing to name. So it's not, you know, over the years, you know, when you Protestants talk about Mariology and the idolatry of marriage and everything, but when I talk to thoughtful Catholic people,

they, as always happens, right? You know, when you go to the actual person who's trying to articulate this, it sounds quite different than the critics, you know? So I do think that there is more complexity and even the role of Mary in the worship of the church. You didn't mention this, but I, so Genesis 127, does that come? Because, you know, in the image of God, he created them male and female. He created them.

There's this poetic interaction, right? Between bearing God's image as male and female. But what does that mean? And it's obviously a beautiful, one of the most beautiful verses in the Bible, full equality of men and women. It's one of the most,

I don't think there's a parallel. No. A female's being described as in the image of the divine. Like that's insane. I mean, it's insane. It's, it's, it's remarkable in that area. But then the question does come up, like, what does it say about God that we bear God's image as biological sexed creatures?

Um, did you wrestle with that or can you help us? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And of course, you know, there are libraries filled with image of God conversation. So but, you know, I haven't actually mentioned kind of one one thing in the book that fills this void that you're asking about. So definitely I talk quite a bit about God, the father. I talk quite a bit about the story of Mary in the text. But then I do have a chapter on Jesus. You know, that seems like it could be important. Mary in the text. But then I do have a chapter on Jesus. You know, that seems like it could be important. And he, of course, several times in the New Testament is named as the image of God.

And so much of Christian theology, as you know, sees really the incarnate Christ as the temple for humanity, right? He's the perfect human. So then that actually presents kind of a challenge because if he is male and everything we have in the text asserts that he is, right? He's the perfect human. So then that actually presents kind of a challenge because if he is male and everything we have in the text asserts that he is right, no one kind of wonders if he's, and there is kind of interesting conversations of if Jesus is virgin born, could he have been intersex? You probably know way more about these conversations than I do, but I definitely have started reading into them. Nope. He seems like everyone accepts his maleness, definitely have started reading into them. Nope. He seems like everyone accepts his maleness,

but yet he really is. If we take the, the texts and the creeds as legitimate, if we do affirm virginal conception, which I do, uh, then he's a male that really is different than all other males in that his body comes from a female and from a female alone. Now, I don't mean to argue that we don't know what his DNA is. A theologian, Oliver Crisp, has some really good articles thinking about Jesus's DNA. It's ultimately a mystery. Really? Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So that is a field of conversation.

Very interesting. But I think we can say safely within the bounds of our confessions that yes, he's male, but yet because he gets his flesh from a female alone, doesn't that present our Lord as this beautiful example of what Genesis 1.27 says, that the image of God is male and female. And so I spend a whole chapter then thinking about the Christology of the virginal conception and how women really are caught up into, and this is of course what the New Testament always says, right? We are all caught up to be sharers or participants in Christ. And I think that's not just at the level of spirituality, but it's an embodied reality as well, even though I recognize there's still a mystery there that we can't fully grasp.

That's interesting. Yeah, I did read a few articles on the possibility of Jesus being intersex. It usually comes from his statement about the eunuch in Matthew 19. Oh, right. Because eunuchs, the born eunuch would have probably had some kind of intersex, uh,

condition. Um, and some people say that's, you know, Jesus brings up the eunuch because maybe that was who he was or whatever, but there's, there's no evidence for that. It wouldn't have been,

and we don't have any evidence for this either, but it wouldn't have been unlikely for him to be called a eunuch because he was a marital man a single man of marital age far beyond marital age right i mean in his late 20s early 30s and the only most of the people in that day and age who were still single at that age would have been eunuch so people could have maybe accused of have been a eunuch um but there's no evidence that he brought up the eunuch. So people could have maybe accused of have been a eunuch. Um, but there's no evidence that he brought up the eunuch to say, yeah, and this is me, you know? So, um, but yeah, that, you know, people, as you know, scholars can explore all kinds of possibilities. Exactly. As Bible people have to have something to write about. Where I have been really intrigued is not so much in the biological sex of Jesus, which again,

everything we have to go on explicitly would say he's male and there's no ambiguity there, but it's more in his behavior. I mean, he violates so many cultural standards for masculinity. A single man of marital age seen as very unmasculine, turn the other cheek, very unmasculine um serve people of a lower social status wash in defeat of one who's going to betray him very that's seen as not that was seen as weakness lack of courage feminine like all these categories were very prevalent both in judaism and from the greco-roman culture so in terms of like if we want to make a distinction between sex and gender in terms of his gendered behavior he very much blends

characteristics of stereotypical masculinity femininity i think that that's where uh in this is you know i think it was some feminist biblical scholars who were the first ones to point that out to me at least i'm like there's something there that's like that's that's really powerful i don't know if you know the book i'm sure sure you do. Behold the Man by Brittany Wilson, a New Testament professor at Duke. Yes. I've not read it. I'm aware of it. Yeah. Is it good? Yeah. It's fantastic. Yeah. It's truly not only focusing on Jesus, but ways in which Paul falls short of the standard of masculinity, the Ethiopian eunuch. So yes, exactly what you've been saying. She kind of has the receipts,

as some of my friends say, to support everything you've just articulated. It is fascinating. I mean, that as a man, never even wrestled with any kind of distance between me and Jesus. This sounds so dumb. I mean, maybe it's so obvious that i'm gonna show how stupid i am but like is that a common struggle for christian women you know jesus is like be like me and everybody's like be like jesus and this male figure um is that is that is that a common kind of hurdle or like i i i think if i asked my wife this question she would say i never even thought about it like she you know right know, right. You know, right. But that's one person. So I don't. Yeah, no. And I think it is very person to person.

I don't think it's like every Christian woman kind of goes through this time period in which she asked that question, but I do think it pops into the head at some point. Right. Like my life is different, but to some degree that would be true for everyone. Right. Like none of us, but to some degree that would be true for everyone, right? Like, uh, none of us are first century Jewish males. Uh, and so we're always going to have some distance and that's the beauty of the scandal of particularity, right? God chose to come in this way. Um, but I do think for women, if it is the case that, that gender is one of the most definitive things, sex, and then how we display it, gender is one of the most definitive things, sex and then how we

display it, gender is one of the most definitive things about us, then I think for a good number of women, this is a question that comes. And it depends on, of course, their experience, etc. And I think you're exactly right. The ways in which Jesus breaks down barriers and unsettles assumptions, even assumptions of gender, is a wonderful place of inclusion. I think when I was writing on Mary, our Catholic brothers and sisters and Orthodox brothers and sisters tend to focus a bit more on Christ as representative, kind of like his embodiment,

and make some distinctions there between men and women. And so I was a little bit more attuned to that conversation. I have another book coming out. When I turned in the manuscript for this book, both my blind reviewers said, you are doing too much. So I cut about 40% of the material, and I have another book that will be more attentive to the Protestant side. It's more focused on Pauline texts and how he goes back to Adam and Eve and what he does with gender, what he does with the incarnation. So I think I might have more opportunity to explore what you're talking about in this next volume. Does your book deal with or contribute at all to the egalitarian complementarian debates in the church

or is that not directly? And that was an intentional choice because i feel like in many and this is what i spend a lot of my time teaching about and talking about which i'm glad to do i feel like that's part of why god put me on earth is to have that conversation and i love doing it in a space where not everyone agrees because i believe this is something we can disagree on and still love each other but i feel feel like it has gotten so locked, right? Like this side says this, this side said this. And I had a wonderful professor, Beverly Gaventa, who was just a wonderful theologian, New Testament scholar.

She would always tell us in class, if you get into a debate, then ask a different question. And so it was a bit more serendipitous, my turn to Mary. But when I really started researching Mary, I said, you know, this is a different way to ask the question. Maybe a little more controversial for some, like, oh, what do we do? But I do think it just kind of gets us coming at a different way. And in the book, I'm very bad at poker. So I'm very bad at like hiding my own position. Also, someone could Google me and in four seconds, figure out what I find, what I believe about these questions.

So I do put some of my own cards on the table, but I hope in a way that invites conversation rather than just like a slap down and say, you know, if we ask a different set of questions than your own tradition may answer them differently. But I think there's new questions that haven't been asked before. It's interesting that, you know, the Catholic church would be, you know, very high on Mary and make Protestants nervous, but then they're also very much male only, you know, the very, I mean, commentary, I don't think they even use that term, but I mean, um, no, but yeah. And there's, there's no conversation like it's, that's not going anywhere anytime soon. Right? So they're pretty settled.

Right. And yet they have a view of Mary that, like, would you say the Catholic Church is able to empower, in its theology, like empower women in a way that some maybe Protestant, evangelical, complementarian churches don't because of their theology of Mary? I never even thought this is an in-the-moment question that I've never thought about before. Oh, but it's an excellent question. And in fact, there are whole books written on that question. In some ways, yes, I do think Protestants, and especially in teaching this class on Mary. So my colleague and I have done so five different times now. And I don't mean this to sound, I hope it doesn't sound bragging, but we have students like breaking

down the door to get into this class. For us, there's this sense that at this evangelical institution, all these Protestants, they have this kind of sense that, man, there's a piece of our story I've missed out on. And so there is a hunger. And I think that's often true for women of, and this is really maybe the heart of the book is to say, women, if you ever do feel devalued in Christianity, let's just remember our central confession. How does God come to us? As Paul says in Galatians 4, it is born of a woman. And so I do think there is a recovery there of the place of women in the story. That being said, the times in which my own position is when Mary gets higher and higher and higher and higher and higher, as I said, if she becomes superhuman,

almost divine, then she has less and less and less impact on all other women. So there can be expressions of faith in which she is lifted up. And then there's kind of like ignoring the real women on the ground. And that's not my assessment. That really is some Catholic feminist theologians who have done that work. Now, that being said, I have dear friends and family members as well who find Catholicism for them as women, incredibly fruitful. So I was never in the place to say it can't be. I, every time I teach that class, I have a deeper appreciation for Catholic, Catholic and Orthodox theology. And I am more solidly Protestant. Uh, I I'm, I'm grateful for the tradition in which I stand. Uh, and so I would, I would want to give them the space to say exactly the same thing,

but there's the risks what is it about what is it about the catholic church that some women you know feel very empowering and is it everything with mary or more is there more to the way they do you know it it can be and the uh the yeah the way in which she's never forgotten i think that's really important the women that i have in mind are also very attracted to Catholic sense of justice, their consistency in their ethic. Family members are Catholic. My cousin is in law and she was a part of a Jesuit mission for a while.

So for her, it has been the way they live and the consistency of their ethic has been really beneficial and life-giving for her life and faith. So that's one thing that comes to the fore for me. Somebody asked me recently, why does it seem like a growing number of maybe younger people are leaving kind of traditional evangelicals and for more liturgical churches? One, do you think that's true that more and more, more now than 20 years ago are leaving? And number two, do you have any thoughts on why that might be? Well, I become a textbook example. I grew up Southern Baptist and so appreciative of that upbringing.

I think I was taught to love and study scripture. But then at 27, my husband and I joined the Episcopal Church. And there's lots of reasons for that. You think, oh, we're doing something really different. And then you look around, you're like, oh, it's like an entire movement. I guess I'm part of a movement. But I think there is, and this is actually happening a lot at Wheaton. We have a number of Anglican faculty, a number of people, part of the Anglican communion. So maybe I'm, you know, have a myopic vision here. But I think people are longing for my evangelicalism that I grew up in while it had so much good.

And I think maybe sometimes I misunderstood things as like, it's me and Jesus. And I think students are longing for something that's not just them. And so a connection to beauty, a connection to a history, to the global church, that's really meaningful. I love though, my younger brother, he's four and a half years younger, love him, great believer. We have a great relationship. He hates our church. He hates liturgy. church. He hates liturgy. So he's, I mean, and we joke with each other about it. So it's a great example to me that not everyone my age has made this transition. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. I, I, I, I always have been, and probably always will be part of a kind of low church, non-denominational, but I don't know. I, it's interesting that they're like my more broader ministry, even, even, I mean, if you count a podcast as a ministry or even with the center for faith that i run i mean we work with probably 15 to 20 different denominations we would we have catholic and orthodox people coming to our

conferences and and i love i just love that ecumenical spirit that used to be a bad word in my upbringing ecumenism was like of the devil and now i just i i i don't need to agree with every expression or whatever but i there's so much beauty and things we can learn from different expressions of of the christian faith you know and um and there's a lot of kind of skeletons in the in all of our closets you know that we need to weed out but um yeah i i it's funny because a lot of people i know that had a similar trajectory grew up in evangelicalism and now are more liturgical a lot of them say they went to wheaton's i don't know what you guys are serving in the cafeteria over there but i made my transition before i came here so like i drank the kool-aid before arriving on campus so you did a lot of

your education at prin. Um, Princeton is historically, I want to say, is it Presbyterian? That's correct. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a great place to be. So I finished undergraduate and moved immediately to Princeton. And that was kind of like, was that a girl from Oklahoma on the East coast wide eyed. Uh, but I had such a fantastic experience there. And I think in many ways, like, uh, there you kind of just imbibe Bart. So I'm Bartian in ways that I don't even know for so many years, uh, but I did both my MDiv and my PhD there and just so grateful, but my husband and I didn't make our transition to being Episcopalian until our first teaching jobs.

We were at Indiana Wesleyan and part of just a really faithful parish called Gethsemane. They were doing social justice. They were preaching scripture and they had the liturgy. And we were like, oh, this is, we felt like we were coming home in some sense. And so we've never left. I was saying, I personally do resonate with more liturgical environments. I think the older I get, I don't know, some of the low church rhythms have just kind of worn off on me a little bit. I'm not saying that's good or bad.

It's just part of my journey. But I don't think my family would thrive in a liturgical church. Maybe they would. I don't know. It depends on the day. liturgical church maybe they would i don't know it depends on the day but um it's such a yeah you the church decisions we make are always about lots of things um yeah yeah yeah but it's yeah i love being at a place like wheaton where we do have so many denominations and just appreciate the beauty of wow you know there are a few things that we all agree on and need to agree on.

And other than that, we can learn from each other. Yeah, absolutely. Let's, can we change directions a little bit? I mean, you said you really got in this concept of God as Father from your early study of Hebrews. Was that your doctoral dissertation in Hebrews? And then you published, I think, your first book, You Are My Son. Is that your dissertation? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So I had great professors there.

And I remember sitting in my little carrel one day and you write this paper that for many people becomes their dissertation. And I was kind of deciding like, Paul or not Paul. I had always loved the epistles. And Paul is really crowded as you know. And I had always been kind of drawn to Hebrews. I'm totally one of those young people that read the warning passages in Hebrews, we send willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. And you know, as a 15 year old, I'm like, I'm done. You know, I have. Actually, I went to see a PG 13 movie, even though I felt convicted that I shouldn done. You know, I have actually, I went to see a PG 13 movie, even though I felt convicted that I shouldn't, I was like that my faith it's over. I have thrown it in. So Hebrews was like this terrifying text for a time, but I think I was learning how to

cut my teeth on exegesis as I was saying, well, what does this actually mean? Wrestling with that text. I also really appreciate Hebrews because it keeps me honest. I have to be in the Old Testament. I can't just kind of stay in the news. So yeah, I was noticing that God speaks a lot in Hebrews and we learn a lot about God's character by all these spoken citations. That's definitely different from Paul. Paul will always say scripture just as it has been written. Beautiful. But the author of Hebrews always says, God says, or Jesus says, or the Holy Spirit says. And the first thing that God says is, you will be a son to me. I will be a father. And since God has called father only twice, nobody else had paid attention because they thought, oh, this is a really minor theme. But I made the argument that not only fatherhood, but every time son, Jesus is called son, inheritance, pedagogy.

Lots of these themes are wrapped up in the family of God, which I argue is one of the fundamental planks of the letter. So that's where I spent my time in my dissertation. And because Hebrews is not crowded, once you do Hebrews, you're in this great little community of about 20 people. And then you all hang out and write stuff and you get known as a Hebrews person. That is. I remember I had a fellow PhD student at Aberdeen when all of us were doing Paul and he was doing Hebrews. Okay. And we were just so bogged down.

was doing hebrews and okay and we were just so bogged down we always had bags under our eyes from reading all the secondary literature the you know 18 articles on the meaning of galatians 312 or whatever and he's like yeah you know i've got some secondary literature to wrestle with but i just get to really spend time in the text you know i'm like oh we're also jealous um you mentioned hebrews 6 can we i would love to get an expert's opinion on what's going on there I'm like, oh, we're all so jealous. You mentioned Hebrew 6. I would love to get an expert's opinion on what's going on there. I think most people are going to be familiar with it. But you kind of quoted it from heart, but I do have a Bible in front of me. 6-4, that's where you're headed.

Yeah, let's go to 6-4. Are you there? Do you want to read it? I am. Go for it. Sure. It's impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted of the heavenly gift, who have become sharers of the Holy Spirit

and tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and having fallen away, it's impossible to renew them again unto repentance, crucifying for themselves the Son of God and exposing him to public shame. Yeah, that is intense. And I was, well, I had my Greek open because I was literally working on my Hebrews commentary the moment before we started. So kind of a rough translation of how it's, but what's really interesting about it, maybe in the Greek, that's not immediately apparent to an English reader is the very first word in that sentence is adunaton, impossible. And then all the descriptors, and then you get to renew again into repentance. So that's really fronted rhetorically. Oh, it's such a hard text.

Actually, last summer at Neshota House, an Anglican seminary, I taught a whole week on just the warnings on Hebrews. And that was amazing with these students and pastors to wrestle through these texts. There, of course, is a tradition in the church and a healthy one that will say, you know, these people aren't really Christians, much like in 1 John, those who have left us were never really a part of us or the seeds that, you know, get choked out by the weeds. And that's a respectable position to take. Another position would be, yeah, all these descriptors seem to be

that they are Christians. I tend to fall in that category. It could be because I grew up Baptist and I'm more Arminian, right? I own, it could be my background. But it really is, the language to me is quite persuasive that these terms that he uses tasted of the heavenly gift. The only other place that he used taste it's in chapter two,

where Christ tastes death for us all. So that's not like a little bit, right? That's, that's like, I feel like he's led people to say all these descriptives that I give you sure sound like Christians and other parts of the letter. And so is this author open to the possibility that someone could turn away? I tend to say, yes, I recognize that's not everyone's, but I think it's something he's concerned about. Now, here's the interesting thing I think about these passages. When we read them, and this was true in church history as well, I think our first question is, but could someone come back, right? Like if they could, they come back because we, especially in this era, right, are knowing people who are leaving the faith and we would hope and

pray for them to return. So as Hebrews saying, that's impossible. Of course, in the wider church and in the wider canon, we do have accounts where people are restored even after denying Christ. And so that's allowed. So what's going on here in Hebrew? I think it's really important to pay attention to every warning. And there are three really intense ones, 6, 10, and 12. He follows it with a comfort. He says, but I'm not talking about you.

For I am convinced concerning you, beloved, of better things and even having salvation, even though I'm speaking in this way. That follows right after the warning. So I think we have to keep in mind that these truly are warnings for him. He, this author, is not asking the question we're asking. He's not saying, hey, people have left and want to come back. He is talking to a community that's getting weary, that's facing persecution. And so I think he's saying, hey, if you walk away, it is up to God and God doesn't have to take you back. But that doesn't quite explain the intensity of the language here. I think this language of it's impossible, crucifying for themselves the son of God and exposing him to public shame. The author then will move in the

next section into the Melchizedek stuff, which is the other kind of crazy, confusing thing in Hebrews. But the emphasis there is on the importance of Christ's life, that he defeated death and he died once and now he's alive forever. So I think the impossibility in 6.4 is that Jesus cannot die again. And so if you turn away from him and what he's done, it is impossible to get you to repent if you're going to ask him to be crucified again, because that is epipax. That's the language, right? It can only happen once. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So that's what I think is going on there. I think we really do have to read canonically to say, what do we do with people

today? I think Hebrews at times, it shouldn't be muted. Sometimes people need kind of a wake-up call. Don't presume upon God's grace. God's grace is not a revolving door that you can come in and out and in and out. And he has a heavy eschatology. Christ may return, 928, or you might meet your end or the day where you hear God's voice. It might come to a close. And so if you are to turn away, where do you find yourself except then exposed as the enemies of God are? And there's a heavy insistence on community as well. In chapter 10, right before the warning.

And this is the verse I was writing on before we got on our call. Don't neglect to gathering of yourselves together. Like you cannot do this Christian thing on your own. And so that's actually at the conclusion of the week at Neshota House, we were really struck at how important being with other believers is in this whole conversation about the warnings in Hebrews. That's so good. That does make sense. I mean, I love that you even led with that. This is a complicated passage and you're a Hebrew scholar. So to hear you say that, it gives me great relief. As a Paul guy, I've only read Hebrews a couple of times, I think, a few more times than that. But I remember raised in a, you can't lose your

salvation kind of context. I remember, you know, this is going by years now, but I remember raised in a, you can't lose your salvation kind of context. I remember, you know, this is going back years now, but I remember them saying, well, tasted the goodness of God, but they didn't like digest it. You know, they were say to understand a word, you need to look at how it's used first by the, by the book that, by the same book. And then if it's not using that same book that has the author written other letters where you can go elsewhere to see how that one author uses this word. So the fact that the only other time this is used refers to something that is actually happened, like Jesus didn't just like lick death, like he died, right? Like that's, that's interesting. Um, so tasted does have a stronger sense than kind of what it might come off on in English. Um, this is one of the beautiful places that we really do have to

respect the voices of the different authors of the new Testament. And I don't believe there's tension. I think there is coherence because it's all ultimately by God, but we can't kind of like shoehorn author into saying something that someone else said. And again, I think it's, it's, we can approach this by, well, sometimes I use the comparison with warning children, even though it's, it's not strong enough, right? All analogies fall apart, but we live on a busy road. And I'll say to my children when they were younger, hey, if you get on that road, you could get hit by a car. Well, the moment they put their toe in that street, not like a big set, right? But you want people to understand the gravity. And I think for this author, he really doesn't know. He's like, Christ could come back and God has already done everything in Christ. And so if you turn away and spurn the Holy Spirit of grace, then, you know, God has a right to punish you just as transgressions in the law were punished. But then we never get to hear the rest of the story. I wonder if we kind of also bring a kind of a modern way of framing the

question, like once saved, all you saved, if you've been truly regenerated, sealed with the Holy spirit, then can that ever go away? Where it seems like some of these, this passage,

it seems like, but hesitate even speaking authoritatively over the passage in front of you. But like, it seems like he's like, if you're been part of the Christian community, you've been serving and loving and you're confessing jesus like he's not actually asking the question was this person really regenerated it's like they were knee-deep in the christian community doing christian things saying christian things confessing jesus and now they don't do that

and fall away isn't like going to a pg-13 movie right it's like i deny jesus i'm gone i i've left the community i'm no longer i deconverted you know um i mean you could say all of that without answering the specific question of was this person actually was her name really written in the book of life from the beginning of time right yeah is that fair to say yeah yeah and that's exactly what's kind of been fresh for me in returning to these questions is uh yeah i think the modern context in which we do focus so much on personal belief which is a beautiful thing and that's present but this is so about are you hanging out with christians or not right in an honor shame culture if you kind of cast your lot with Christians, that costs you

something. And then if you leave that group, that's going to cast dispersion on that group. That's going to be shaming. And so it's much more public than at least the way that I thought about it growing up. That actually, I think, makes it more important for today when we do have very public deconversions. course in no way am i pronouncing on on people's soul but i feel like that situation on social media is a little closer to actually what is going on on hebrews than what has been true in the church for the past state you know 30 years with more individualists oh that's interesting yeah yeah yeah the honor shame context that's something we just can't it Yeah. The honor shame context, that's something

we just can't, it's so hard for us to get our mind around, you know, the communal honor shame place such, I remember reading a book a long time ago, or even talking to people who live in an honor shame culture and they're Christians. It's like when they explain kind of the weight that that has on their communal faith, it's like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's, we just don't. The closest would be, you know, somebody pointed out like, you know, we're, we communal faith, it's like, oh my gosh, yeah, we just don't. The closest would be, you know, somebody pointed out like, you know, we're a, what's it called? Justice, fairness, culture, whatever.

Except in high school and junior high, they tend to be much more honor shame. Like you will break a rule if it elevates your social status, right? The thought of getting punished, it's like, well, will it diminish my, will it bring more shame or more honor to me? Like, I feel like our high schools are kind of more honor shame. Would you agree with that? I mean, that's so wise. Yeah. I have a daughter

who's entering high school and she's so mature and just lovely. But there are some times I'll say, Hey, will you do X, Y, and Z? Well, people would see me if I did that. And I'm like, you're like a super mature kid. Why do you care about? And so then I'm reminded from the mouths of babes, right? It might be young people that could help us really think about the networks that were true in the first century. Yeah. Can we do one more before I let you go?

One more warning passage since we're on it. You mentioned so 6, 10, and 12. Let's go to 10. What's the exact passage here? Yeah, that's 1026 is where it starts. Okay. For if we sin willingly after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin,

but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and the fire, which will devour the adversaries. And then here's this comparison with the law. If you set aside the law of Moses, two or three witnesses, you were killed. How much worse do you think worthy of those who dishonor the son of God, uh, trample upon the son of God, uh, disregard the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified, uh, and show hubris toward the spirit of grace. Just to be clear, you're, you're reading straight from the Greek, right?

Is that right? But you know, this is my job. I should be able to do this. I just, it's just pretty BA. I just, yeah. Just, yeah. All right. And we at Wheaton, we, I teach a freshman class as well and we teach the novel silence. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's about Portuguese missionaries in Japan. I highly recommend it. It's amazing. Oh, I heard about that. Yeah, Greg told me about that book. Yeah.

Oh, great. Yeah. But it has several scenes in which in that time period, the way that Christians were asked to deny Christ is that they would take these images of Christ and Mary actually was also prominent. They're called fumies. And they would ask the Christians to trample on them, to step on those images. And so this in Hebrews here is the language of trample. And that has a lot of purchase when we're reading that novel with students, you know, in a different time and place, what does it really mean to deny Christ? That kind of gets back to your earlier comment. You know, when we leave our churches, that's like no big deal because we can go to another one. And that's complicated and fine. I recognize that. But we just kind of have a hard time

knowing what does it mean to publicly, you know, disregard what God has done in Christ. Yeah. But, but that one's an intense, intense one too. And it's actually this one that got me as a young person, because this, what is sinning willfully mean, right? After receiving the knowledge of the truth, because I think, especially if we were to go back to passage like Romans seven, there are times that we sin willfully, right? There's, I know what I'm supposed to do and I don't do it or vice versa. Yeah, I do think this one, it's important to recognize again, that again, he follows it.

If you go down to 32, for remember the earlier days in which having been enlightened, you endured a great contest of the faith. You showed kindness, right? So he's saying, hey, here's the warning. Here's what happens. But look back to your past. You've been faithful. And then he says, and don't let go of your confession, your endurance. So again, he's not saying the ship has sailed for them. It's all over. He's saying, please,

please don't disrespect what God has done. In fact, it's kind of an underhanded way to do what he does in the whole rest of the letter, which is to emphasize the great superiority of Christ. His sacrifice is all that's necessary. And therefore, if you demean it, then there's nothing left. Can you explain what I think you translated sin woefully or willfully? My translation says, if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received. What does that mean? Actually, that's really helpful. The word here is ecusios.

It is like a word with intention, like a choice. And it is, I appreciate your translation. That's really helpful because it is in the present tense. because it is in the present tense. Someone whose life really is characterized by ongoing, unrepentant, uncaring sin, after they know what's true, then that's an indication that they're headed in the wrong direction. So much of Hebrews is like a movement metaphor. He talks about the wilderness generation. He uses the metaphor of running in chapter 12. And so you get the picture that like, if you are not headed in the right direction, if you start to veer off course, you're in danger. But it's not like immediately, you know, you make one mistake or you don't attend church

once and you're off. It really is like, pay attention to the pattern of life that's developing in you. I'm going to be honest though, Preston, I have not gotten to this section in my commentary yet. That'll be next week. So I don't know. I'm still I don't know. I haven't figured this one all out yet. And I may not.

And that's the beauty of doing exegetical work is sometimes you do have to say, yeah, we'll have to wait for another generation to figure it out. I'm curious. This popped in my head when you said your translation. It made me think of that Old Testament phrase. The literal meaning is to sin with a high hand. Sin with a high hand. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious if this would be remarkable, right? If the Septuagint, you had this verb there to translate sin with a high hand. I doubt it. But I just wonder if- I'm sorry that I don't know that off the top of my head. That would be very interesting.

But I do think that's a great comparison because that does help the kind of spiritually sensitive. And it wasn't just me. I've talked to a number of young people who wrestle with these passages, and it's often the really spiritually sensitive kids, right? Right. They're not sinning with a high hand. They're not just like, you know, screw you. I'm going to do what I mean. They're like all nervous about being in a PG 13 movie, you know, which probably shows they're in the right spot. Yeah. So if you're worried about having committed apostasy, you haven't committed apostasy because you, if you wouldn't care if you did. So yeah, it's, it's, um, it's this like intention and that high hand, I think, is really important because that does get, this author is really helpful. He gets a lot of description.

So you're not left wondering, what kind of sin is he talking about? This really is a walking away from the faith, even a public shaming of the faith. It's not any kind of sin that probably most of our congregants, you know, are wrestling with, but I think it's healthy wake up. Like if there is pattern of sin in your life and you just don't care, that is something to pay attention to.

Yeah. Good. Well, we can finish up, but before we do, I want to give you a chance to advertise Wheaton college. They didn't pay me to do this. I just, like your school um if somebody's listening and probably not too many high school students listening but maybe parents with kids in high school like what

kind of student would thrive at wheaton college like who should send their kid there question thank you so much. I deeply appreciate that because Christian higher education is a, is a tough place right now. And I love being able to speak well of, of Wheaton. Um, the kind of student that we really are a vibrant faith kind of place. So we're not just Christian in name only like students here really want to grow closer to the Lord. And there's this mutual encouragement. They often go through periods of questioning. And I think that's healthy.

But the aim is by the time you leave here, you want to be a faithful follower your whole life and you've been equipped to better do so. And it is a person who wants to ask questions as well. We aim to be academically rigorous. And that means that we're not afraid of asking any questions. We read widely. We tackle the hard questions of the day. And the beautiful thing is we don't all agree on them, but we are tethered around the centrality of our tagline, which has been true for 150 years, is for Christ and his kingdom. So we're committed to the central things. We're

willing to dialogue about all the controversies. So if you want rigor, both with academics and with faith, this would be a great place to be as an undergraduate. And also our PhD program, I'll throw one in. I'm a PhD advisor. We have Old Testament, New Testament, and Christian theology. And we are a great community of scholars, very residential, very intentional. And so if anybody wants to work on Hebrews or Mary, reach out. I love to take students. And then my colleague, Isam Akoli, which you might have heard of him. We are the New Testament reps here for the PhD program.

So it's a pretty fun place to study. Is this still almost impossible to get into the PhD program? You accept one or two students or something in each department? That might be an overstatement. No, it goes up and down. The last few years with COVID, that has not been true because a lot of people have been hesitant, understandably, to jump into something new. And we're very relational. So I will dialogue with someone for six months to a year before they apply so that they have a really clear sense of what's expected. So no surprises. We're glad to

talk people through the process. I remember I was going into my PhD program at Aberdeen right when you guys had just started yours. So this probably 15 plus and i remember they were saying they wanted to blend like the best of the american model the best of the uk model best of the german model so it was it seemed like an amazing program and and everybody's like well it's so new you know but i remember talking to i've got a few friends that went through the phd program and, they, they came out super qualified. I was a little jealous because they just came out. So yeah. Uh, I mean, I had a great experience in my program too, but, um, yeah, they, they were,

they were, they were legit, legit scholars. So, um, yeah, it has a good track record. Now I actually looked at it myself when I was looking at programs. Uh, and then it, you know, you know, it was so fresh. So I went out to Princeton. But we've got a good foundation that we're building upon now. Hey, someday we'll have to talk Scotland. I did my sabbatical at St. Andrews.

And Scotland is my hands down favorite place in the entire universe. I'm going to say, not just the earth. So we'll have to talk Aberdeen at some point. St. Andrews. Aberdeen's a good city. It's still Scotland. But St. Andrews, we were driving down to St. Andrews. I'm like, oh, this is the sun shining.

It's smaller. It's just felt more quaint, I guess. It was a really good place to have a sabbatical for eight months. I'll tell you that. That's awesome. Well, thanks so much, Amy, for your work. If you want to find out more about you, I'm on your faculty page here. If you just Google your name, it takes you right to your Wheaton faculty page.

Is that the best place for people to get a hold of you? Yeah, that's a great place to start. I also have a personal website, amykeeler.com. And so try to keep some media stuff on there. And real thanks to Erdmann's. If people are interested in the book, it does come out early October. So grateful for conversation that will ensue. Women and the gender of God. Well, thank you so much, Amy, for being on the show. Really appreciate it Converge Podcast Network.