Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1017: #1017 - Deconstruction, Progressive Christianity, and Church Planting among the Disenfranchised: Tony Scarcello

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

Tony is a pastor, church planter, author of a killer book on deconstruction called Regenerate, but most of all, Tony is an amazing Christian and a good friend. In this podcast episode, we talk about his story of deconstruction and reconstruction, why he became disenchanted with progressive Christianity, and some of the key values he’s pursuing in his current church plant in Springfield, OR. Oh, and I sort of think out loud (probably too much) about some (probably unrealistic) ideas I have about a radically different ecclesiology. https://tonyscarcello.com If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information! 

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in Iran. My guest today is my good friend, Tony Scarcello, who is a, he's been a pastor for a number of years. He spoke at last year's Exiles in Babylon conference. He's the author of the book, Regenerate, following Jesus after deconstruction. And he's also working on another forthcoming book as we speak. And Tony is currently in the process of planting a church in Springfield, Oregon, south of Portland. And Tony is currently in the process of planting a church in Springfield, Oregon, south of Portland. And we talk a lot about church planning, different church planning philosophies. I think what he is envisioning in this church plant is really fantastic. And I'm super excited to see what God does with that church plant. Tony is just such a real down to earth dude

and love talking with him. Super sharp. We talk about deconstruction. We talk about progressive Christianity. We talk about church planning. We talk about ecclesiology. And there were a few times when I think I got caught up in the moment on some rabbit trails I was pursuing in my own mind. And whenever Preston Sprinkle gets carried away with thinking out loud, that's always a complex space to be. So welcome to the madness of my world, Theology in a Raw. But more importantly, let's welcome back to the show, the one and only Tony Scarcello. Tony, I mean, there's so much we could talk about. And what I love, I miss hanging out with you in person, man. We could literally talk about, I mean, pretty much everything.

We'll go through deep theology, practical stuff, life stuff. And one of the areas that I love your perspective on is the whole conversation around deconstruction. And your book, Regenerate it documents your story of kind of deconstruction reconstruction and so you very would you say you deconstructed or on a path to deconstructing or went through like how would you describe your own journey in a two minute or less i don't think i deconstructed as much as you can deconstruct um I never, I got to a point where I wasn't certain I believed in maybe the majority of like the historical claims of the Bible. And I think I had in a lot of ways cut the cord of continuity between like biblical, historic, traditional Christianity and

kind of a more modern, for lack of a better term, like liberal Christianity. And but I but I but there are some people who deconstruct so much that they're just like completely done with the term Christian, not even going to pretend to have it. I was like, you know, I had listened to people like Rob Bell and Richard Rohr and it's like, oh, I can still in a metaphorical sense, call myself a Christian. That's not at all where I'm at now. But I went from really rigid fundamentalism to kind of that pool, I think. Do you think, I mean, that's just your last line, rigid fundamentalism. What percentage do you think of people who deconstruct from Christianity have a similar trajectory from some kind of rigid

fundamentalism like i rarely hear people deconstruct from a real healthy humble vibrant moderate evangelicalism where pastors are humble and women are empowered and you know do you i mean you know i don't i don't think i've met a single person in fact i had a lot of friends who were like just came from really healthy backgrounds when I was deconstructing and like, you know, perfect example is like learning that there is more than one atonement theory. So when I was growing up in the Bible college, I went to like, there wasn't, there wasn't an atonement theories. It was that God poured out his wrath on Christ.

So they wouldn't pour out his wrath on us. Yeah. Yeah. Penal substitutionary atonement. And as I was unpacking that and like realizing that there's other ways of looking at that story and that the cross is way more mysterious than I taught it was taught it was, I had friends who were like, well, I've been a Christian my whole life and I never believed that it was that God just was so mad at us. He had to kill Jesus instead. And I, and I just like, that blew my mind. And I was like, if you would have told me that before I was deconstructing, I probably

would have thought you were a heretic. Like that was really like kind of rigid, rigid and brittle. I think are the two best words to describe easy to break and like easy to, to get angry. Rigid and brittle. Did you coin that? That is so, that is so good. No, and even the analogy, like when things are rigid, they are easier to break, right? For the most part. I don't want to say absolutely, but because yeah, I mean, another big one is like the age of the earth is a big one that I've seen for people. One and two, young earth, like 6,000 year old, 10,000 year old earth.

And again, that's a viewpoint that can be argued from scripture, no doubt. But when you make it like synonymous with this is orthodoxy, if you don't believe this, you don't believe in the authority of scripture. There are no other legitimate ways to understand Genesis like that. That is fostering deconstruction. Begging for it. Right? I mean, is that too strong? I mean, again, I'm not saying the viewpoint doesn't have some credibility. I'm saying when you make it on par with like believing the Bible, you are just asking, you are nudging,

especially young people who, I don't know, go to college, take a science class. Like they, you were just pushing them towards deconstruction. Is that true? Is that, I don't want to overestimate, sometimes I overstate things just to make people mad, but yeah, I really think that you don't have to have, um, like I don't believe necessarily in a young earth. Um, but I don't think you have to have come to the term, come to terms with the reading of Genesis that I take to teach people how to think through different interpretations and that somebody who disagrees with you on that is not a heretic or like somebody to be looked at

with suspicion. Like my friend, I think, you know, to Kurt Willems, he says that churches are really good at making atheists. They're just kind of atheists making dreams. When you teach them that there is no other way but this way to believe on that. And there are a list of things where that's important, and you do need to do that. like, that's why like the Council of Nicaea is so important, because they literally were like, how do we how do we make that list like, concise enough to where we say you have to believe in these things in order to like, be an apprentice of Jesus and call yourself a Christian. And when you read the list, there's a lot more that's not on there than is on there. And age of the earth isn't one of those things. So if you're not begging your kids to deconstruct by saying this is the only way that you can read it and there's no other ways to read it, you are sort of begging them to turn off their brains and to not actually engage with reality, with reality that there are different viewpoints. want to say Christians shouldn't have convictions, strong convictions. What I do want to say is the

strength of your conviction should match the depth of your humble and thorough study of whatever the issue is. And I think that's where younger people especially are getting kind of tired. It's kind of like the black and white answer that doesn't come off as humble. It disrespects other viewpoints. Because in the world of the internet, they know there's a thousand different ways to interpret every single thing. And there's smart people on both sides of every issue. And it just looks so suspicious for young people when you're like, no, this is the right way. What about these hundred other people at degrees higher than you that disagree with that? Can you at least acknowledge?

And if you don't acknowledge that, no, you know what those are? Here's why I have interacted with those views. Here's some good points they bring up, but here's some areas where I feel like they might fall short. And that's why I do hold to this position, acknowledging that there are smart people.

If you don't approach it like that, they're just going to be so... They're going to be less trusting of your viewpoint than more trusting if you just think that saying your viewpoint louder and louder is going to convince them, right? At least the circles I grew up in confuse arrogance and ignorance with faith. And you can be full of faith and also not be arrogant and ignorant. And when all it takes is, and this is what it did for me. Like I was, I don't remember what the guy's actual name is, but Dr. Dino. And, um,

I can't remember his name, but Dr. Dino. Yeah. He has like the dinosaur museum and talks about how they, uh, drowned in the flood and Ken Ham. Ken Ham. Oh, Ken Ham. Yeah. So I was like watching his lectures and all that kind of stuff. And then my buddy who was going to go to a Bible college and more like, um, kind of moderate Bible college. Um, he was just like, well, why are Genesis one and two out of order? Like if it's meant to be taken literally, why is the sequence of events different? Just, just flip the page. Like the sequence of events is totally out of order and that just like i had no answer for that and it's yeah it's it's and i've read genesis one and two million times and never noticed that

but when you like expect to when you go to the bible expecting it to say something it's going to hinder your ability to read what it actually says. And I think if you're like arrogant and ignorant, like you're going to go in there full of expectations that the Bible wasn't written to me. Did you see the, I think from a couple of years ago, the, the, you know, they, they had the, at the museum, they had the arc, the big, huge arc. It was, it suffered water damages. And so they, they sued, they sued the insurance company because the insurance company wasn't going to cover the water damages. Cause it they sued they sued the insurance company because the insurance company wasn't going to cover the water damages because it rained really hard it kind of started to flood a little bit this is a true story you can't you can't make this stuff up i mean

i'm like oh my word every single deconstructed christian or atheist is going to have a hey and they did obviously i mean yeah yeah that's nice unless you just hang your head say i just yeah you guys you guys got us on that one so what so you were on a path so you were trying to maintain some kind of – you didn't want to leave the faith. You just wanted a radically revised version of Christianity for good or for ill. So tell us about what brought you back or why did you find that version of Christianity not as compelling as you once did? Um, there's a couple things. Uh, one is when you like deconstruct, I think, well, I, I'll say this for myself, but I think a lot of people would fall into this category. What you're looking for is a better set of tools to deal with reality. Um, I think deconstruction happens when the tools you were given no longer manages reality for you, no longer gives you the ability to engage thoughtfully with the world and so deconstruction kind of the brand of deconstruction that i was going with which was

uh really influenced by like the liturgists at the time or i mean i i there's there's some of rob bell stuff that i like so i don't want to crap on rob bell but rob bell and like it it tells you that you're going to become a more tolerant, thoughtful, open minded, open hearted person, which I think I think most of us want to be that. as the fundamentalism I came from. Only this time, this type of fundamentalism is broadly accepted by, for lack of a better term, secular culture. And so I didn't find myself anymore at peace. I didn't find any more depth inside of me. I feel like there was like this point of deconstruction where I was really working my brain in a really healthy way. And then I just went right past that point. So what brought me back was first, like, I didn't find that deep pool that I was looking for. But then I also realized that progressive Christianity sort of touts that,

like, it takes Jesus more seriously, because in a lot of ways, it is more focused on doing what Jesus said to do. But there's so many claims of Jesus that are deeply offensive to progressive ideas and thoughts. That's like, if you don't take Jesus a little bit more seriously and scripture a little bit more seriously, progressive Christianity just kind of feels toothless. It feels a little bit like cherry picking the version of Jesus I want. And there are lots of people who can convince themselves of that. But because I've been doing that my whole life as a fundamentalist, like I was, I knew I was doing that this time. And, and it just never felt honest. So I would say those two things, like not finding the depth that I was looking for, and feeling like that I had an

anemic Jesus, were the catalyst for rethinking things again. Wow. And that happened, I feel like that was shortly before we met, right? This is like five, six years ago or something? We've been exchanging emails during that process. By the time we finally hung out in person in Eugene, yeah, five or six years ago, I was learning through you and AJ, AJ Swoboda for podcast listeners, that there is a whole nother pool of community swimming. Fundamentalism and progressive Christianity aren't the two options. And I had no clue. Seriously had no clue. And I will say like that the denomination i'm a part of um

well i'm has lots of problems uh just like every denomination i'm a part of a four square four square pastor um gosh i had just joined staff at a four square church and was going to their conferences and was just blown away first time i ever saw a woman preach in person first time i ever saw a person of color preach in person um and like listening to them talk about issues of justice and equity not in like this angry anxious progressive way but like in this deeply rooted biblical justice i had no clue this existed and it felt so much more robust and and i and i as a pentecostal i really sensed that like the spirit was just leading me to deeper pools at that time so our friendship and me joining Foursquare and like all those things happening at the same time was just a perfect storm to kind of help me find my footing again.

I love the Foursquare seems again. Yeah, I'm sure there's disgruntled Foursquare people out there. They're going to be angry that I say something positive about the definition. that I say something positive about the denomination. But in my experience, they just seem to blend the spirit-led, all the good in Pentecostalism, just that vibrant, the passion, the kind of healthy charismatic expression. And yet they also, I'm going to word this so I don't throw shade on people.

But they seem to be very thoughtful too. Like they value theology and intellectual tradition and they pursue justice, but in a very biblical way. They reach out to the marginalized, but don't throw out sexual ethics, you know, to do. Like they just seem to blend it really well. They seem very similar in my mind to the ECC, the Evangelical Covenant Church. Just kind of that real middle of the road,

just taking healthy aspects of that real middle of the road, just taking healthy aspects of various other expressions of the faith that might go really extreme in one direction or the other. I don't know. That's been my experience. We have a denominational president that I think you could wait a lifetime for. He is

a really solid dude and took over right at the beginning of January 2020. So his transition was taking place during COVID and at a point where the church was more fractured than I'd ever seen it in my life. I was just so impressed with his leadership and his unwavering commitment to Foursquare's stance on issues of justice, even though that word was being used in a whole bunch of different ways. But still making so much space for people who, when they hear the word justice, think wokeism and Marxism. At a certain point, you're just never going to be okay with that word. And he's accepted. Yeah, I think a lot of that starts with leadership. I think our leadership in the last 15 years has really fostered that spirit and kind of ironic.

Because you do have... So going back to just to be fair, you do have... The Foursquare does have a kind of very conservative political right kind of contingency, right? Is that is that an outlier? Is that a strong, you know, before I like give too many glowing reports on the dog, but because I've heard you say you've been in spaces where it's like, oh, man, this is not a healthy kind of, it's been way too politicized, you know, but is that is would you in your estimation? Is that a small percentage of four square churches or is it hard to tell? I think it's like you'd think it would have to be because how could you stay in the denomination when the leadership is so focused on things that you would find deeply offensive? But I really think four square is really good at trusting their pastors to be missional in their context.

And so I think it depends on where you live. And there we have a Foursquare pastor who's actually planting a church in Boise or right outside of Boise. And he and I are in a cohort together. And he's definitely more conservative than I am. But even he is like, I'm not getting on board with that. Like Trump isn't from the pulpit and like he might, he might value, he might have those values in his own life. Um, but he's really, really like restrained and being super intentional and is planting to not like be the Patriots church. And, um, so yeah,

like I think most of us are like, even if we have views to defer, we all want to come to the table and just like push Jesus. That's the thing we want to push. And I think the outliers are the more, that's good on both sides, outliers on both sides. Yeah, man. So where are we at right now as a church? Uh, you're planning, you're planning a church, right? So,'re really i mean planning a church in the kind of post-covid or post-co post-ish covid world i don't know if it'll ever be post-covid but yeah what's that like man i mean is it is it challenging is exciting i mean you're just now in this in the beginning stages of gathering people and it seems like

there's got a lot of people for initial gatherings that's you had over a at your first invite-only meeting. That's kind of a big deal. Is there a hunger for something different? I can't quite put my finger on why there's so much interest. I think part of it is that myself and my leadership team have been doing ministry in our area for a long time. But I will say our church's name, and I don't say this as a plug, I say this to make a point, like our church's name is Open Table Church. And just to give like an idea of the cultural moment, I've had conversations with people who are concerned about us because they think that

Open Table Church means you're affirming and open and progressive. And, and then I've had people who, some people who came to that gathering who were disappointed in us because they thought the same thing, but coming from an opposite side, we haven't even started yet. And I'm having copies with people who are like, but that's just about the, just wait till they hear me preach. Like that's just the church name. So yeah, it's, it is, uh, I'm not going to say it's exhausting. I think like I have grace for the season, but I'm definitely like, this is a narrow, this is a tight rope. Like you say one wrong thing and, uh, any number of people are going to take it a million

different directions. And that, that is a post COVID reality. Not that that wasn't always there, but it's just, I talked, you know, Josh Butler, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. He was on the podcast and like during covet he says i've never seen people just read so much into some real neutral kind of phrases like he said um i'm gonna misquote him here he said they had they had some motto at the

church like jesus loves all people or something and they they misinterpreted it as oh you're saying all lives matter as a reaction against black lives matter and they took it as this stab against and he was like this this has been our model like 20 years before it was something like it was so ridiculous he was just like scratching his eyes thinking how did you read so much into something like that's just it wasn't even close to that like anyway um you have access to a lot of like you know a lot of pastors yeah so tell me if like i'm off in this thinking but i i sort of and this i'm an enneagram eight so i think this comes really easy for me but i sort of feel like you know when you're pastoring you have to have a really clarified vision of who

you're reaching with your church and just really kill your darlings now and accept that your church is not going to reach everybody. Like I there is a church. I'm going to say where they post on their Instagram that they're a church for everyone. And I get that like idea that like I think what they're saying is anybody can come to their church and hopefully feel welcomed and cared for. But if you're a church for everyone, you're a church for no one, like at this point. Like, I think like, because there are people all over the map who need different levels of discipleship, I think the Spirit needs to compel leaders to have really specific vision with the types of people they want to go for. And if you're not doing that, I think you're begging to watch your church be split up and destroyed by bad actors within the community. So for us, like at our vision meeting, we were just very like, look, we are for we're biblically orthodox.

Like we we we we probably sound conservative on a lot of key issues. But we're also like deeply committed to inclusivity and deeply committed to justice. And like we're going to do those, do those work, that work in our city. And I know like that there are people who hear those words, inclusive injustice, and in their mind, they have a suitcase that is filled with things that my suitcase doesn't have. And, but like, I'm not going to, I just, I'm not going to spend my time as a pastor constantly debating with people who are triggered by the word justice, there's plenty of churches you can go to that will not use that word. But for us, our missional context is we're pursuing that.

And I don't know. Do you think that that's just bad leadership or is that good leadership? Well, I have nothing but weak opinions on this. Let me gather my thoughts because I do have a lot of thoughts in my head right now. I just want to make sure they're clear. Yeah, I think you should have kind of your main kinds of people that you feel called to disciple that you want to reach. For instance, if you had some KJV only suit and tie fundamentalists that thinks Trump is the second Messiah, not that all those things

always go hand in hand. Is it your mission? Is that you're like, oh, I thrive on wanting to help that person maybe see a newer version of Jesus? I'm going to guess you're like, I don't have the toolkit. I don't have the desire. That's not what I'm called to do. Other people might say, oh, I really want to reach atheists, just people that hate God, you know, or no, I wonder, I really have a heart for, you know, Christians who are maybe deconstructing from a view of Jesus that has been warped. And I want to kind of recorrect that. I want to reach, you know, younger people who are leaving the faith. I want to reach boomers who, for whatever reason, you know, I think that's valid.

I do. I mean, obviously the church should be open to everybody, but I don't think I have a problem with a certain kind of emphasis in a church. For instance, I mean, who was I talking to the other day? Oh, the guys down at Tampa Underground. You know, they, you know the tampa underground is a community of all these like 100 micro churches scattered throughout tampa and he says some are planted in like upper middle class gated community and others are in the you know most grungy like

gang infested areas of the inner city you know and like each one you're people who go to the gated community one are they wouldn't really fit the vibe of the other one he know and like each one you're people who go to the gated community one are they wouldn't really fit the vibe of the other one he said that's we we were okay with that like that's each one kind of has a missional focus that that that creates this kind of camaraderie and community around it so i i think that's very valid um obviously you wouldn't turn somebody away if they came and they didn't fit the kind of profile like hey it is for everybody like anybody's welcome um but i wouldn't change your language your mission your focus your vibe to accommodate to every single kind of person no i mean um and i don't think this is my cynicism because i do tend to get cynical sometimes, but I would probably err on the side of saying things

and doing things that will repel, repel? Like push away? Like people that are like, well, you said the word justice. Well, are you woke? Or, well, you know, you did this. Or like the people that are just kind of looking for like, no, I need you to fit this box.

And you said something that you don't, I would go out of your way to, that's going to be pastorally exhausting. Those kind of people that are just coming in and they want you to be something that they want you to be. And if they don't fit that right away, they're going to try to stay in. If you try to bait and switch them saying, oh no. And you try to like, the person who's kind of more left-leaning to try, oh no, no, we're not those fundamental.. Here's why. And then the more right-leaning person, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm, you know, I would say, dude, come out with a bang, be who you are. And you're going to draw people who want to be a part of that kind of community,

form that group up front. So you have a robust group of core committed people. And you lay that thick vision down at the beginning. We are going to be about justice. We are going to be about ethnic reconciliation. We are going to be about the authority of scripture. We are going to be about a countercultural sexual ethic. And we're not going to make any bones about that. We are not going to wave the flag. Whatever. Don't be purposely triggering with your language. But I don't see that spirit in you. But I would say be clear with your messaging and let the chips fall where they may.

So here's our values. We're going to message that. But I'm not going to waste time on people who are just going to misunderstand or read into it or not like this little nuance or whatever. That's just going to be – there's so many people that just going to misunderstand or read into it or not like this little nuance, whatever. Like that's just going to be, that's going to be a, there's so many people that are going to benefit from your pastoral heart that you don't want people who are going to steal that energy away from you to, to, to in a sense, steal away from more rich, vibrant pastoral opportunities that you're, that you are going to have with a core group. Does that make sense? I mean,

and again, I'm just, I'm kind of thinking out loud. So I, this, I don't mean this, I'm not counseling you here. I'm just trying to like talk with you here. What do you, what do you, what are your thoughts? I think, I think I, so I agree with you. I do want to say when you're church planting that, I mean, I'm in an advantageous point where I can do that. There are pastors who have been faithfully pastoring for 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 years and are just now having to figure out that, like, my church is equally both.

It's equally both the people who will leave if I don't do it. Like, we'll use justice as an example because it can be a polarizing word. They will leave if I'm not pushing justice. they will leave if I use the word justice. And so those guys are on. I have no like I'm not speaking to that. And I mean, I do think wisdom and the sake of your own longevity and leadership would say you kind of do need to figure out what your mission and vision is going to be and let people leave if they need to leave.

But for some people, that means letting someone whose daughter you baptized 30 years ago and whose wedding you officiated say like, oh, I'm out. Like, because, because the resources I'm taking and are telling me that you're a heretic and where you've gone woke. And so, yeah, like I, I, I want to acknowledge that. But I'm thinking like for newer leaders starting out like me, I just feel like the most wisdom is probably going to be just stick with your vision and mission. And especially the spirit of God is birthed in you for your community. And hopefully there will be people who do disagree with you that come, that challenge you, that help maybe shift you a little bit and vice versa. And I want to add this clarification to you you obviously don't want to create some echo chamber that becomes its own kind of tribalistic thing where the where they're so bought into the

vision this sounds almost counterintuitive but like where they're so bought in that there is no room like you said there is no room for kind of push back or wiggle room or differences of opinion like you don't want to create an echo chamber. That's not what I'm saying. I feel like you're, well, tell us, what are your values? Like what are some of the key values that you're going to be about as a church? And if people want to be a part of that, then great. But if not, then they're just not going to really resonate with what we're doing. What are those key values? Totally. And so actually this does tie back into our conversation about deconstruction and like what what brings you back.

So I think that the best path towards like a meaningful, like fulfilled life and like the best way to dig a deeper well within yourself. And coincidentally, the belief system that gives you the best tools to deal with reality is like authentic, deep, genuine pursuit of Christlikeness. And so this is where I come in really, really closely, like in agreement with John Mark Comer's approach to ministry, or even we've named, dropped Swoboda once, but like his approach to ministry of like discipleship as the process of utilizing ancient spiritual practices that do bring about character transformation. So Dallas Willard, who is like a big hero of mine, like he talks about how, you know, we have a soul and a will and a heart that we interact with the world with, and that comes through our bodies and we interact with the world through our bodies. But the way we changed is almost the opposite, is that you do things

with your body and it then habituates into your heart and your soul. And so the idea is that you don't think your way into new practices, you practice your way into new thinking. Oh yeah, that's Jamie Smith, right? You are what you love. Your habits will kind of cultivate and lead your affections, right? I mean, I don't know if that's, it's been a while since I read it, but yeah. Yeah. Like Augustinian, very much like changing your loves, changing your desires or David Bennett's war of loves. It's, it's about like, like, like confronting those things and then being very intentional with that. So for us, like our number one, our mission is really twofold, but our number one thing is that we are being processed. We're going through the process of

being formed into the image of Jesus. And, and for us, that's, that's different than bedroom Bible college where you just read your Bible all the time. Like that's part of it. But like, it's also like allowing those, the lifestyle of Jesus to live in your body and like interact with the world in a way that, that follows Jesus. And Then the second thing for us is like we are here to reach spiritually homeless people. I'm not interested in that. I think lateral church growth doesn't actually advance the kingdom of God. Like I think it's keeping the kingdom of God exactly where it's at. You're in a new community. I think advancing the kingdom of God is taking on a missional model that people who are de-churched, unchurched, never been to church, will never go to church, like all of a sudden come across your community and are second guessing every story they've heard about Christianity.

And so but to me, that only happens if we are genuinely pursuing Christlikeness and genuinely be formed into the image of Jesus. So for me, what brought me back to a more like, as you and I would say, like orthodox perspective of Christianity was like, if you don't take the Jesus of the Bible seriously, there is no Jesus for you to be formed into the image of. It's different opinions and ideas. Like you have to read the scriptures thoroughly and clearly, as clearly as possible, if you're going to have a vision to become that type of person. That's so good, man. When you said Christ, okay, formed into Christ-likeness, I just want to dig underneath that a little bit. What does that look like on Tuesday morning or Wednesday afternoon?

You know what I mean? What is that? Because that could be Christians nod their head. Oh, yeah. Okay, but what does that mean? Like, what is that? Cause that, that could be Christians nod their head. Oh yeah. Well, okay. But what does that mean? Like, what does that, how does that play out? You know, Willard would say, and I hope I never get accused of quoting him more than I do the Bible, but he does have a really clear, like, like vision of this is he says a disciple is someone who knows how to be with Jesus, become like Jesus and do what Jesus would do. And so for us, like, Christlikeness starts with John 15, abiding in the vine, just sitting in the presence of Jesus.

I think intimacy with Christ is the birthplace of all spiritual transformation. Then that process leads you to becoming like Jesus, where it's like, again, as Willard would say, like, it's easier to do the right thing than the wrong thing. And I think what he's getting at there is like, again, as Willard would say, like, it's easier to do the right thing than the wrong thing. And I think what he's getting at there is like, at a gut level, your reaction is to just respond to things the way Jesus would respond. It's, you don't have to, you don't even have to think through it and be intentional about it. Like, it's just naturally coming out of you. It's like, for example, I was talking with someone last night, and he was talking about a conversation that he'd had with his kid, when there was some very personal stuff going on. And he was talking about a conversation that he had had with his kid when there was some very personal stuff going on. And he had he had said that, like, you know, I just said this and I just embraced him and I held him. And and I said to him, I was like, wow, you're really representing Jesus well in that moment.

And he said, I wasn't even thinking about Jesus. So I don't think Jesus had anything to do with it. But I know this guy like I know this guy is in the word and this guy is praying. This guy's devoted his life to that.'m like that's not true like it just naturally flowed out of you your gut instinct was to respond like jesus and then doing what jesus would do that's taking care of the marginalized that's and that's having dinner with with people that maybe church people shouldn't quote unquote be having dinner with and um and i think a lot i think that's where progressive Christianity gets it, is the doing what Jesus would do part, but it misses the becoming like Jesus and the being with Jesus. And so it leads to burnout and exhaustion and an anemic spirituality. So yeah, that's what I think.

Like, wake up on Tuesday morning, be with Jesus, become like Jesus, do become, be become do. Yeah. What's your ideal size of the church that you're planting? I know you're not supposed to, I don't, the numbers thing is funny because I've never heard a pastor. Well, I actually have, but you know, most pastors I know would say, it's not about the numbers, whatever. And yet when a church grows, it's exciting. It gives you energy. You're like, I think we're doing something right. Let's hire another person.

And our youth has gone from five people to 20 people. I've never heard a pastor say, oh, that's kind of discouraging. Our church is growing. Or I can care less. And if a church started shrinking, the same pastor said it's not about the numbers. I'm assuming would think, what are we doing wrong? Like, so I don't know. I feel like there's, there's this gap between like, what would you say? Cause I know we're supposed to say in, in reaction against kind of mega church, whatever. I don't, I don't care about growth,

you know, but I kind of do like, for instance, like, you know, do you know of a church that doesn't care, but doesn't care about growth that if they maxed out the one service that they wouldn't go to two services? Because we don't... Yeah, we maxed out. We're good. We got what we want. We're going to stick with 500 people because our building holds 550. Sorry, I kind of go somewhere else if there's no room for you here.

I don't know. So what do you... numbers why like if you do grow beyond a certain number would you try to reproduce like saying hey we what each gathering and not be too big but we'll reproduce or do you have have you thought that far ahead or would you or would you just keep growing and again i'm not saying that i'm not even sure i wouldn't i don't know what i would do except if i was a pastor and a thousand people wanted to come to church or I don't know. This is going to sound really like a cop-out answer. Whatever God wants us to do. Whatever Jesus wants.

I don't want our church to grow beyond the capacity to do the vision well. I think we reach a certain number of people, for lack of a better term, like you kind of have to be a little bit more aware of your consumer at that point. And it's like, OK, we got to pay the bills and we have a thousand people. So we have a staff of 30 and I got to keep them all employed because if I say something wrong and half of those people leave, that's half those people out of jobs. And and I and I think there are some churches that are really well suited for that and are making authentic disciples of Jesus where the leader does have a vision that can be that big. I'm not convinced that that's where we're at. I don't think my vision or the vision of my team would sustain a thousand people. So for us, like if we get a building that can fit 300 people in

a sanctuary and let's say 50 kids on top of that, I've been saying from the get-go, I'm not doing more than two services on a weekend. And so if we get to a point where we need more than that, then I've been telling my team since day one, some of you guys might be lead pastor someday getting sent out to the other side of town, hopefully doing the same thing as us, but not being your own autonomous church that we're sending out. Because you're in a spot where you can create the values and vision that you want from ground up. Other churches, they're just in this hard spot to where the budget ends up determining the values rather than the values determining the budget. Because, yeah, I don't know any pastor, I've never met a pastor who, well, aside from the reproducing models, cause I do know people that say, no,

once we get over a certain a hundred, 200, like where we will reproduce, like we're not going to, we, we like reproducing is so built into the vision that that's just what we're going to do. So that no kind of community gets bigger than 150 or 200 that that kind of vision aside like if a church does start growing then they let it grow and then they do another service and then the tithing is up and then they hire more staff and then but that that snowball effect and all of a sudden you have this, as Dan White Jr. says, this church industrial complex where you have money and payrolls and building expenses so intertwined with the vision of the church. And then, oh yeah, we're going to do a sermon on sexuality. Well, let's kind of not do that because 30% might leave

and that's going to take away the budget and I'm not going to be able to pay. Like you have – and I don't – I feel like I can identify sort of kind of the problem here. What's the better vision? I don't know. I don't know how – like Francis, that's why Francis says our church is not going to have anybody on staff. No, nobody's paid because we don't want money to ever. We don't want any ministry decision or decision to preach on this, to do this as a church, to be dictated by financial loss or something like that, or however he worded it. I really value paying people in ministry and paying them

well um so i i i'm not sure if i'm totally on board with that that vision necessarily but um i don't know you you've got the opportunity right now at the beginning stages to think how can we make sure we don't let the budget drive the values rather than the values driving the budget i don't know what the answer to that is you know and i hope i can stick to my guns on that yeah like i i know that i am um gosh i am very susceptible to we got a good crowd going so like and i and and i i you know i listened to the rise and fall of mars hill and so much of what they were talking about. Like, hopefully this doesn't scare people away from me, but like, the stuff they were talking about Mark Driscoll early on, like, I'm like,

Oh, I gotta be careful of that. Cause that is in me. And, um, that like desire for power and, and, and, and like, it's all there. Like, and, and so like, I, I hope and I pray that like I can stick to my guns and what the Spirit has given me. And I'm trying to put leaders in my life who will hold me accountable to that. But I also – I can't tell you what it's like to start a new thing and have mass interest in it. And the appeal to the ego, the, okay, God, maybe I thought it was this, but it's actually that. And that whole process.

I have no clue. This is all hypothetical at this point. But my hope is that I feel like I've got a clarified vision. I feel like my team and the people I respect are on board with it. Really want to stick with that. Here's one idea. And I'm not saying this is even something you would want to do, but just an idea that church planners in the world we're now living in, which is so turbulent and so different. Is there a way to integrate entrepreneurial ventures into the life of the church?

Like if, for instance, if your building could also be used to host other... I've talked about this. I hope I haven't talked about this too much. But one of my things I'd love to explore is to get a building that can be used as a coffee shop during the day. You lease it out to a coffee shop during the day. Maybe you also lease it out to a brew pub at night or something like a tasting room. And then the church gatherings are kind of integrated throughout that. I mean, I think if you did that with two different businesses,

you would not only be able to bless those businesses with cheap rent because they're both utilizing the space, but then you have maybe none of your budget goes into the building, which would be amazing. You've already brought the community into the public square rather than trying to beg people to go to church. You brought the church to where people are naturally gathered. So there's so many win, win, win, win things about that. But then also you're alleviating the financial stress by doing things as a church that make

money, not profits over people, your blessing. People are always coming before profits. They should, but it's not wrong. Like, you know, when's the last time you confronted your Christian dentist for making, you know, six, seven figures, you know, it was like, Oh no, it's fine to make money. I don't know. Like, I just wonder if, if, if, you know, who's doing this is Hugh Halter, I think out and he's, he's done, he's kind of explored kind of these more just like real creative, integrative ways of doing the church. Like I think he has like a restaurant or a coffee shop.

Francis has done some of this stuff too in San Francisco. I just think there are some – there are a lot of potential ways in which the traditional church budget, traditional church structured around a certain budget that we've kind of, the way we've always done it, can and often has hindered robust radical discipleship. I'm just saying that as a broad 30,000 foot category, like, how can we as church planners, you, start off so that we don't end up down the road to where, again, the, the, the structure of the church is actually, you're not able to do the discipleship you want to do, but largely because there's just so many finances that have just embedded themselves, embedded itself in, in, in the mission of the church. Is that, I don't know, is that, I'm out to lunch.

I don't know. Is that mouth to lunch? Dude, I'm right there with you. If we had, like, I have a, I mean, he's one of my favorite people, but I also hate him. There's a guy named Joe. I hope it's not me. Who is it? You said his name? I'm a name problem, yeah. He's Joe Gruber. he pastors a church in portland and he had this beautiful building just given to him before he even started his church so i hate him

for it but like i also like if that something like that yeah happened to us like that's one of the first things we would do is seek out like to lease it out to other businesses and yeah i am all bored i honestly like any church well first of all like even if you have a church of 5 000 people uh that building is empty five days a week um so you can you can do that and like there's okay there's this church in bend oregon and uh they're i'm not gonna say the name of the church because they haven't landed on this yet but they're heavily exploring like uh not say the name of the church because they haven't landed on this yet, but they're heavily exploring, like not changing the name of their church, but changing their name of their building and opening up like donating offices to social workers and foster parents like facilities and like just making it a community center where like plays are happening and like uh they you know the event it's a venue for people and um making the church like not really much a church building anymore but more of a community

center and it is a mega church like they have three i think three thousand people that are going there and um but they they're like this is how we can serve our city best is by donating the office space by like letting people who want to start daycare, start daycares here. And so they're just, and even my, uh, my mentor at Eugene face center, like he's also exploring that with what ways that they can use their building to be a blessing to the community. And I love that. And I think more people are moving towards that. I think if, if you're not thinking about that, you should. I think churches are so used to everything is like, for lack of a better term, in business terms, like donor supported. So I guess part of this is because I run a nonprofit and Theology in Raw has become its own LLC.

And I just, I hate, from the beginning, I've hated raising money, like donors. I don't like that. money, like donors. I don't like that. I love things that are more financially sustainable, where you're doing things and that's generating income to fund what you're doing so that the work you're doing is actually sustainable. So you're not calling the same donor every six months, whatever. Now, churches have this tithing system where you don't even need to do that. You do have to ask for money, but it just kind of comes. But I feel like ministries have become so used to, we operate for free because people give money. I just wonder in the, in the new world that we're moving into where finances are turbulent, where, uh, Gen Z and millennials don't donate, don't tie, sorry, just a little stereotype. Uh, the

boomers that give 10% faithfully are not going to be around in 5, 10, 20 years. The financial balloon we had in the 80s. There's a good book written on this that most of our ministry models were kind of formed in the 70s and 80s and 90s when we had so much money coming to the church. So you can just do all kinds of stuff. Church of 100, let's get 30 full-time staff. But we swear these ministry models, but the economics is not the same anymore. And it's not going to be sustainable

for several reasons that I stated. And we've already seen ministries closed down because they were just built on these massive budgets that just can't be sustained anymore. And I just wonder if the church will be able to thrive if they lose, I don't know, nonprofit status or something, or people aren't given, you know,

like, I don't know, like, yeah, as we move into more financially turbulent times, it would be, I think, more sustainable if we can have some sort of like revenue coming into the church that sounds almost bad to even say that like you're so programmed like no if you do something christian you can't make money off it but the christian doctor can make a million and that's totally fine dude good job dude you know it's like wait a minute have you divided the secular and sacred in a way it's just

not not helpful but um it's not just a good like business thought it's good missiology missional thinking pastor worth their salt that i've listened to has also had the same thing, that any church that's missional strategy has the expectation of people just coming to your campus for the sake of just coming to church is not going to reach unchurched or de-churched people. Like, it's really we have to have a sent out model. You figure out what, where are people gathering, where people, where places that people find safety and share their values. And so that could be like a bowling league or a pub or a golf league or whatever. Like, and then you permeate that social mosaic. You just get in there and you hang out

and you show up over and over and over again. If you can make your church a pub or a coffee shop or a place where those social mosaics are happening at your campus without them having to come to church, like that's, that's brilliant. Like it's, it's, it's, it is reaching people with the gospel in really, really practical ways. So it's not just financially responsible, it's missionally responsible. I'm just, I'm thinking out loud here, but like, as you're talking, I was envisioning kind of that, that big church you're talking about,

like, and I'm just envisioning like this big warehouse that you had, you know, um, almost like a mini, not mall. I hate malls, but like, yeah, you had a cigar lounge over here. You had a coffee shop here. You had whatever ministry outposts. Yeah. You had maybe communal workspaces where people ran out of desk and, and you're doing things that are generating income. What if you had people ahead of profits, models of businesses that were charging fair rates, but were generating income?

And what if the churches had a lot of extra money to send missionaries overseas to start business ventures overseas? Not that this is wrong necessarily but there are some some countries to where if you go over as a missionary that doesn't have like a in their eyes like a real job like i've my cousin was in in north africa was a missionary he says business's mission is the only way to do that if you come in as a missionary like and you meet somebody in there like what do you do for work i'm like i'm a i'm you can't say i'm a missionary like i just live here wait so how do you make money i just you know there's certain areas where it just does that doesn't communicate

like when people are like like but having an actual business where you're you're making money and you're profitable like that gains respect from other people who are also trying to you know work and make money and what if the church church had... Because they were exercising faithful entrepreneurial skills, had lots of resources at their disposal to pay their youth pastor $100,000 a year. I'm serious. I think a youth pastor should be the highest paid people in the church. I think they should have a master's in psychology because most of the people they're trying to shepherd are struggling with depression, suicidality. 20% have been sexually abused by an uncle. Their discipleship is stunted because they have so much stuff going on in their life that more

than any other younger generation and youth pastors are like, I'm not equipped to do this. Well, then go get equipped. We'll pay for it. If you're not equipped, then bring in the best Christian therapist to come and help these kids. I mean, think about the endless opportunities that if the church did have financial resources at their disposal, not because people just keep giving more and more and more, but because they've exercised faithful entrepreneurial skills. I don't know, man. Is this idealistic? This is what I do. I sit in my basement and just think of all these unrealistic ideas. And then say, you should do this.

We've been talking for 20 minutes. You're going to get an email that's just going to explain to you why everything we just said can't happen. Oh, man. I know, right? Youth pastors getting paid six figures. Well, anyway. Many blessings on your church plant, bro.

I'll be your armchair. I'll be your Monday morning quarterback throwing you all these ideas. We were like, dude, just stay in your basement. Put on your fancy conferences and stick to talk about sexuality. Yeah. All the easy stuff. You're working on a new book.

Yeah. To talk about that. Yeah. I'll talk a little bit about um the premise like the premise actually so we were when we were at theology in the raw last year after i got done speaking i got a twitter message from somebody from a publisher who wanted to get together and talk about if i was working on anything and i was i told him what i was working on and uh and he was like oh yeah we're pretty much like we're not really interested in that. I'm like, okay, well, thanks. And then he said,

have you thought about writing a book about like something about faith and sexuality? And my first book regenerate is, is kind of, I mean, it's my story. So it's a little bit about that and you and Greg Coles and David Bennett and Jackie Hill Perry, like there's been, I am from my perspective, so much said that I don't feel like I have anything to add to. Um, and so I, I said that and, uh, he was like, okay. And then we left and I think it was while John Tyson was speaking. Um, like I felt like I just had like this idea downloaded in my brain. And I don't even remember what John said, like for, for that. Cause I was just thinking through like, and kind of taking notes of, like, so the idea wouldn't leave my head. And I bounced it off you and Greg Coles, and then I went to the editor.

And pretty much what I'm working on is a book that's addressing specific barriers that LGBTQ people experience in the church. And so I think there's been a lot of conversation about having Orthodox theology, having, I mean, when we, my team went through People to Be Loved, the church plant team, and the first thing I said is like, this book takes, has the position and posture that we all need to have when it comes to this conversation. But like, as far as like, how do you actually integrate that into the life of a community that's a different book i didn't write that but yeah that's that's part yeah yeah so that's that's uh that's what we're that's what i'm working on um so i'm

just addressing i think i i narrowed it down from like 20 to like 12 barriers specifically of talking about what those barriers are, like the societal context as to how those barriers came to place and then how the gospel helps us go beyond those barriers. So yeah, so it's a work in progress. I'm not even close to being done with it, but. Do you have any big barriers that are clearly going to be in the book? I know you're probably still working through which ones, but are there some big, huge barriers? I think the three biggest ones that I'll probably spend, it'll be hard to not make the book just these three,

is the barrier of history, the barrier of the stories that people believe about the church, that people in the church believe about the church, let alone people outside the church when it comes to this topic. And I think the gospel power to address that is, is repentance. And, um, so, so I don't... Is history like the, the, the, the real, the tension between LGBTQ people and the church, given how the church talked about LGBT people for so long and the AIDS crisis and all, all that. Yeah. Not just AIDS crisis, but like,

um, some of the treatments in the 1950s that people back when it was considered a mental disorder, Alan Turing, the guy we're talking on computers right now, the guy who invented the computer, um, was,

was chemically castrated, uh, because he was gay. And like, that wasn't post-enlightenment, like sexual ethics that did that. That was a really bad reading of scripture with people in power that did that. And so like, there's like a brutal history. And I just don't think that as culture becomes more defensive and more tribalistic, a robust theology of repentance, not just I'm repenting towards God for my own sin, but repenting towards my brothers and sisters for the sins we've done against them, has to be like really, really fleshed out.

And I mean, you think about Daniel chapter six, and he is repenting to God for the sins of Israel that he did not commit. But he is he is still a part of Israel. It's his family, whether or not he wants to admit it. He's repenting for those sins. And, like, that has crossed, you know, you can talk about race with that conversation, but specifically, you might not have ever done anything mean or improper to somebody who's same-sex attracted or trans, but you still have to carry a posture of repentance because the history is yours.

You've inherited it by becoming a Christian. And he kind of changed that story. I can hear people resisting that because we're so individualistic. I mean, even as I hear like, yeah, but it wasn't me, you know, but like, but you are part of a religious institution that has that history. And you used a phrase that was actually perfect a posture of repentance or what you weren't even saying like you sin you need to repent as an individual but to have a posture of i am so sorry that the this religion that I belong to has a history of doing these things. And I, you know, yeah, that posture of repentance is so helpful.

And you know, what's funny is that, that people have to spend ideas, spend time and energy fleshing that out as if like we, we forgotten that we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Like we should all have more than a posture of defensiveness. We should always have a posture of repentance. Um, that's a total failure of discipleship on our own part. Uh, that if I, it's easier for me to want to fight, want to defend, want to say that wasn't me, want to nitpick your ideas rather than actually listen and receive what you're trying to say. Um, that is a lack of Jesus being formed in my life. So I, yeah, it's more of like whole scale discipleship. But specifically with this

conversation, if the church wants to have any hope at all of reaching LGBTQ people without changing an orthodox stance on sex, gender and and marriage, it needs to really embody that. It really needs to demonstrably show, even though we might not be affirming, we are not all the bad ideas that you're thinking. And in fact, we seek to repent and repair those things. That's good. So that's number one. We'll just do one more. What's the second big barrier? Honestly, a barrier is secular culture um like that is a that is a major barriers people come you know we come into the church with with ideas about faith and sexuality we've inherited from tv and commercials and

and i'm gonna sound like a cynic um okay i'll just give an example i'm a big you know i'm a big movie fan like i just i love this and, and I watch the Oscars every year. You do? I don't know. I've never met anybody who actually watches the Oscars. Dude, we have a pool. We bet money on it. Really?

We watch all the movies. And this last year, the slap hurt around the world. Before that, there was somebody somebody who'd won and the first thing she says is i am a queer woman of color there's a such a big piece of me that's like i you you're building your brand right here like you're building your brand by by by like marketing yourself as this and um and maybe she wasn't herself doing that but anyways i say that to say like there are nefarious forces out there that are trying to send messages. This sounds so conspiracy theory, but sending messages about like, with no conviction, and whatever you want to define marriage to be. And that forms us, that shapes us. And so when you come into the church, like having an idea of what is at work in secularism is really, really important. I think Bo Burnham is a standup

comedian who, uh, I think Moonlight does a profit. Like he, he has this joke in one of his recent specials where he talks about being an ad agency. And he's like teaching people how to sell their brand. And he says, the question isn't, do you want to buy Wheat Thins? It's, do you want to help Wheat Thins fight Lyme disease by buying Wheat Thins? And like, and like, and that is like... Real quick, what's that guy's name again? I'm totally into stand-up comedians right now. So I'm always looking for new...

Bo Burnham? Yeah, I'll text you. Okay you okay how have i not heard this guy okay that's brilliant no i i don't think it's a conspiracy theory ish to question whether power and money is behind a lot of things in america not just america but america has a lot of power a lot of things in America. Not just America, but America has a lot of power and a lot of money. But I mean, this is true of just human nature. So, so how many people have the sexual abuse they have because people with power and money are trying to get more power and money? Like, I think that's a conversation that's worth having. Um, you know, have you heard of Edward Bernays? There's a documentary that the BBC did called The Century of Self. And he's known as like the father of modern advertising. And he was kind

of really he's Freud's nephew. So he really like he was genius because he like took the strategy of advertising of connecting someone's desires to the product, not the practicality of the product, but saying, if you have this product, you become this type of person. And now like that's just advertising. But at the time, like people marketed their stuff based off of its practicality and Brene's completely changed the entire game. And it's tight. And then, so Carl Truman talks a little bit about in strange new world, like how modern advertising has affected the politicization of sexuality. And so, yeah, I think that's worth exploring. I think that's a barrier.

Like that's a barrier that the church experiences and LGBTQ people experience that should be addressed. LGBT people might be bringing into their church experience or exploring church to come into the church. And they're bringing some of these secular narratives maybe with them. That's the truth. Everybody, right? You can apply that to anybody coming in. That's exploring the way of Jesus is he's going to have on some level that we

have. Is anybody not affected by advertisements uh news social media like just the medium through which we are just being formed and shaped as a society in 2022 um yeah i think it's just pervasive well just something i keep thinking through is just even the way new traditional or mainstream news outlets are just that. They need to make money off of getting people angry and they need to get sponsors when their ratings are up. There's this whole system that is just – but the whole system of the medium through which we are getting our information is so – I don't want to say rigged, but I kind of want to say rigged. It's driven by power and money like it's not it's not like people like oh i wait we're motivated because you really want people to understand the truth like no that doesn't it's not gonna increase ad revenue come on that's not you need to get people angry so they click

more right i mean that's i don't think this is even debated anymore like you know people get fired up and angry and that they're gonna click they're gonna click and you're gonna the goal is to keep them clicking and you get more ad revenue and even news outlets um have kind of fallen into that seems like most of them at least yeah 100 yeah so yeah i think the barrier and then i i want to connect each barrier to how the gospel empowers us to overcome that and and that one is just um spiritual formation discipleship it's it's taking on the mind of christ and and i and whether that not all churches need to have that be the mission of their church like it is mine, but that is part of discipleship is how to become like Jesus. And yeah,

it's stuff. So I'm excited. Good progress, but I'm excited. Do you have a date or do you have a public, you have a publisher, right? Can you say the publisher?

No, it's not finalized yet. Okay. Yeah. So don't say the publisher, but you'll, you'll probably maybe, well,

if you, you'll probably turn it when really, it's usually a year out after you turn in the manuscript. So we're probably looking at maybe 2024s yeah well i'll have you back on when you actually write the thing dude always love talking with you and uh really stoked about your church plant man that's just i think you're gonna get a lot of interest just because i know you i know your values and i think there's's a deep hunger among Christians for what you're, what you're doing,

man. So you might find yourself being a mega church pastor, whether you like it or not. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.