Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1019: #1019 - GenZ, Youth Groups, Starters vs. Maintainers, Chris’ Bucket List, and Preston’s Inner Rage Monster: Chris and Preston Sprinkle

Episode Date: October 24, 2022

Chris joins me in the basement to banter around about all the stuff–and more–listed in the title of this podcast. We hope we don’t offend too many people.  If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information! 

🎵 We're recording. This is odd. What are you laughing at, Chris? Okay, so we spent the last couple of minutes offline saying, hey, what should we talk about? And you kept shooting down on my ideas. I have really good ideas. So I'm going to go for it.

I think this is going to work. I'm going to lead with something because this is something that I actually really enjoyed. There was a question sent in from one of my Patreon supporters. I'm going to lead with something because this is something that I actually really enjoyed. There was a question sent in from one of my Patreon supporters. I do a Q&A podcast every month. And one of the questions was, Preston, if you could like create your own, like, if you could imagine the most perfect church, what would that look like? And my first response, of course, is there is no perfect church. You know, we know that we can't talk like that, but, um, but like, what were some of the big

picture values, rhythms, things that this church, if I can just create it on paper, um, these are some things I think it would be about. These are some things we probably wouldn't do. I talked about like being multi-ethnic, a strong sense of belonging, um, high view of Christ in everything that it does from bottom to top, obviously. The leadership would be both humble and very thoughtful. Like you would, whatever the church did, everybody that's part of that church would be like, man, they, I don't know if I agree with this. I'm not really sure about that.

But man, they put a lot of thought into this. They really thought through this. That would be a big value. There was lots of things like that. But I don't want to give too many more that I say, because I want to ask you, like what, if you could imagine the most perfect church, when I say perfect, obviously there's imperfect people there, so it's going to be imperfect. But if you can imagine a kind of church where like, man, this church seems incredibly meaningful, intentional, and I love

belonging to this church. What are some big picture things that that would look like? Or even small. I mean, it doesn't need to be in order. Like, you know, this is the most important second, but just kind of what comes to your mind? Well, I mean, I think I agree with everything you just said. Definitely more meaningful and thoughtful. Like what? Yeah. So what does that that what do you mean by thoughtful are you talking like sunday morning service or just relationships or kids programs or well i mean i feel like for like youth and maybe middle school and high school like i don't think we need more

fun like i feel like they can go find fun ton of places that are gonna be a lot more funner than what we're creating right like i think think sometimes churches focus too much on just bring them in, whatever it takes, give them like pizza and give them all kinds of stuff so that they're going to want to come back. I feel like what I said to you the other day is just that I feel like our kids just don't stand a chance to like leave at 18 with a like hunger to want to follow Christ, with seeing a picture of God's kingdom that is bigger than just themselves and what their world is and want to be part of that family. Like we just don't give them any thing that would make them feel that way. So it's like they go from kids program

that's more shallow and more just entertaining to then go to like a middle school and a high school that is just, it's like, it's not touching on the things that they're working through. It's not touching on meaningful relationships. And so then by the time they're walking out at 18, what are we wanting them to sign up for to follow Christ? And so that's just, so I think just the meaningfulness of just even like getting together with the seniors individually and praying for their year, of like trying to disciple them through,

walk through like, what are you thinking about for next year? How can I be helping you with your decisions of where you're going to go next and what you're going to do? And, you know, so. Do you think, I mean, so our kids do hunger for meaningfulness. I mean, do you think, do you think that's pretty shared across most teenagers, even the ones that maybe seem like they're just kind of like not really thinking deeply or not really working through stuff. They're just kind of like doing their thing. But do you think deep down, most teenagers in our churches are really hungry for something more meaningful than what you're typically offering? I mean, I always think about a couple of years ago when we were having our small group and there was a bunch of teenagers that always would go to it. And it was always like assumed,

like, it's hard when we don't lead things. That's what's hard, right? When we're just going to be a part of something, it's like, you kind of have to like go with it. And it's, that's just the hardest thing for us is because we see all kinds of things. But anyways, we were a part of this small group. We were trying to just be a part of it and not be the ones that are just changing it all up. But because of that, like the teenagers were always just left to like, just hang out. They can have time. They're like playing video games in the back while we're in having like meaningful conversations and, and praying for one another and all those things. And here's these teenagers that are old enough to like go live on their own.

And we're just like the standard for them was just, Oh, just, I don't know, go mess around. just that like the standard for them was just, oh, just, I don't know, go mess around. So I remember one, one time we were, I just, oh, I just couldn't, so frustrated with it. Cause I'm like, no, why are we not like teaching our kids to like think thoughtfully and deeply. And, and so all the kids decided halfway through, we were all gathered around, they were somewhere else and they come on, they're like, Hey, we're going to go home. We have one, go play some video games. And, uh, I just couldn't take it. And I was just like, well, hold on, hold on. I go, does anybody want to have like, you guys want to come back? Like you guys want to have a discussion about, I don't know, like abortion. And they're like, yeah. And all of them came in and we stayed for like two hours, all talking with

them about abortion and they had all kinds of thoughts and and that's when it just hit me i'm like we just we just don't believe in them enough or what like don't like hold them to us yeah a standard that is like they're very thoughtful and not everything was accurate what they were saying but they had obviously already thought about strong opinions wanted to written a paper on it. And then they say like, it's, it's actually kind of scary to say you don't believe in abortion at my school because it felt like they're kind of, it's like, they'd be like mocked or made fun of or attacked or, you know. It was the best conversation with teenagers. And I'm like, I'm like that,

like that, like if we're training these kids to leave the home and we are hoping that they still choose to follow Christ after, then we need to like be taking them to something that's going to train them, that's going to teach them to think and to know what they believe. And so I think, I think that's kind of the first thing that comes to mind of like, what would I want in a church is just, just more like training of like for life and for their faith. I often thought like people, all people, especially teenagers will prioritize things that are meaningful to them in life, right? Like they will go to the football game. That's what their friends are.

They will do this. They'll join this. They'll do, you know. If they are not wanting to be a part of the youth group, we do have to ask the hard question of why, like, why, why? And I almost like, I just think there should almost be, not almost, I think this is actually should happen.

Like churches should give like an anonymous survey to all the teenagers that are maybe a part of the church, but maybe not part of the youth group or even part of the youth group and saying like, okay, anonymous survey, speak honestly. Why aren't you coming? What would you, what would you want to see that would make it meaningful for you enough to, to want to come? Like my, my, they might even say like, Oh, if I don't have any of my friends there or something, or I've got practice or the whatever, like, or it. Or there might be some deeper things, like it's not worth my time or something. And there's people listening. I have several youth pastors that listen to the podcast that

I think are doing some really thoughtful things and are mixing it up. Some of the churches I speak out of hear youth pastors and hear what they're doing. And I'm like, oh my word, that's, everybody should be doing something like that. You know, like they're really engaging their students well. Well, this is our next generation. This is like, are they going to be the teachers? This is the like cops, the every, like our kids, our high school kids right now, those are the ones that are going to be leading like our country and like the world in different ways.

And I feel like, so like, well, you said the other day, you're like, you feel like the youth pastor needs to be the highest paid position in all of the church and also have enough money for resources for that. So like, if you're not an expert in different topics and you don't know that you'd be able to hire someone in to come and do something with it. Like, like it should be viewed as this is training ground. This is like, you go to the military and you do bootcamp, like high school youth group should be that it's bootcamp. Like it's not trying to just draw them in. They are faced with some very serious decisions in their life, in their high school years. So just downplaying it to sing a worship song, get some pizza,

and then, you know, do maybe a small light, you know, sermon kind of a thing is just that just, yeah, they're not going to skip anything funner for that. One of the things that I've thought through is, I mean, everybody recognizes that there's a mental health crisis among everybody, but especially youth. I mean, the rates of suicide, anxiety, depression, body image issues. I mean, just so many things. This is a, and like, I don't know anybody would say, yeah, it's not that big of an issue. Everybody would say, yes, this is a huge thing. Okay. So as church, as parents, know anybody to say, yeah, it's not that big of an issue. Everybody would say, yes, this is, this is a huge thing. Okay.

So as church, as parents, well, not just as parents, but as churches, obviously parents need to be like getting their kids help. But what role, since we all agree, it's a huge issue. What role is the church doing to help meet their needs? And most youth pastors are probably gonna say, gosh, well, I mean, I'm not a professional, you know, counselor or whatever. Like, I don't know. Okay, great. Let's get you trained or let's bring in somebody who is. If it is a significant enough issue for somebody's faith journey and just living, then we will allocate the resources to do that. We will have a, you know, $20,000

a year fund for mental health help for our youth, you know, like, oh, we don't have a budget for that. Well, again, we spend money on things we value. If you look at a church budget, typically there's money there. We're doing things, we're spending money on things. And like, if it is a significant enough issue, I think we will do what it takes to help walk with our kids in that. But I don't know. I don't know if that's too unrealistic or if we just don't think that way and maybe some maybe some youth groups are doing that yeah you were a youth leader for you you were for like six months at a church right the the was a junior high year a year yeah what did you do there like when uh when we first moved to Boise you I'm his volunteer you weren't like

on staff but like oh and you started well and you started two non-church programs right belong and united a girls group yeah so what did that what did those look like yeah it was flourishing it was meaningful we like literally just taught the bible like we just it wasn't try to it wasn't try to capture them into coming, but it was just like, let's find out what the Bible says, how we're supposed to live our life. And it just, yeah, we spent most of our time learning about what the Bible says and then also finding out each other and how we can support and pray for each other. And yeah.

Do you think kids were honest? Like they opened up with, I mean, these are junior high girls, right? No, it was high school. Oh, high school. Yeah. Middle school and high school.? Like they opened up with, I mean, these are junior high girls, right? No, it was high school. Oh, high school. Yeah. Middle school and high school. You're right. It was combined.

Um, yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, definitely. I think that people are just longing for that. I just want to like hear like they want to, and you said the other day, I was like, sometimes I just don't feel like I'm trained in all the areas, which I know I'm not, but you're like, honestly, 50% of it would just be just being a listening ear and hearing what people have to, like the kids have to talk about. So just being, you know, our kids have gotten to, um, coffee with some of the leaders at times. And they're like, they come home saying, wow, I'm glad I was there to counsel, like help them listen to them. They

like talked more than didn't ask any questions about me and just talked about like themselves yeah and so just that like just be it like just find out what what's your week been like and you know so that's what our kids described the ability they had yeah that was like oh my word that was yeah i'm like would you want to do that again like no i never want to do that again? They're like, no, I would never want to do that again. Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing. Like, here's the tension that I feel. I know a huge burden for youth pastors is to find not just quality volunteers, just volunteers. Like, they need other adults helping in the youth group. And sometimes they'll just take whoever is willing to do it because they need help.

But I always struggle with like being practical and being ideal. So my ideal is we do need many robust, intentional, meaningful, godly, wise adult volunteers or that they're going to help disciple the youth. Kara Powell was on the podcast. I don't know when it's going to be released in relation to this one, but, you know, she, and there's data on this, you know, she's a youth expert and says, you know, the, the, our youth will stay in the faith.

They're much more likely to stay in the faith, depending on the number of non-parental adult mentors or not even men, but just relationships they have in their life, meaningful adults, taking them out, getting to know them, asking them questions. They know their name, their birthday. I mean, just kind of basic relational stuff. So then my question is, well, how are we fostering that? Ideally, if I was a youth leader, I would say, okay, I'm going to have a really vigilant, high criteria for who can volunteer in a youth group. And I know every youth leader listening is going to say,

you're not going to have any volunteers. It's hard enough to just get people in there, let alone some really top-notch intentional people. I'm not satisfied with that though. What can we do? Let's pay them. To volunteer in a youth group, you get paid a stipend of 10 grand a year.

Or I don't know. I mean, church is like, we don't have that budget. But again, like I'm not satisfied with, oh, we just can't find quality people that are going to volunteer. Okay, let's figure this out. Let's figure there's quality people in the church that need to be connected with youth. How can we make that happen? Yeah, well, I mean, I think you can foster that culture in your church.

foster that culture in your church. If you're like, I guarantee if you've like spent the next couple months from like the stage talking about how important youth is for, and how we like value so much to really mentor them and help them as they're like launching to the next stage of their life. And so, you know, and help cultivate like a seriousness of like, that I think there would probably be a lot more people involved. I think the reason why there's probably not a seriousness of like, that I think there would probably be a lot more people involved. I think the reason why there's probably not a lot of volunteers is because it's like, do you want to go on Wednesday night and go play games and be awkwardly standing around other teenagers? It's like, no, I don't have the time for that. Do you want to go invest in something very important? Yeah. Everybody invests in something really important. So I think just even setting the tone of, of like, of that. And I mean, I think also to kids, parents are mostly

invested in the stage that their kids are at. So I know as much as like, it's hard, like not all teenagers would want their parents investing in, but they, but they are the ones who care the most. Like, like, like students in the youth group don't want their parents investing, but they are the ones who care the most. Like students in the youth group don't want their parents like some of them. But so maybe some like very intentional parents could also be training the 22-year-olds that are volunteering, like investing in them who are investing in the kids, you know. So because I do feel like we are in the trenches with the kids. So we know what they're talking about. We know what they're going through. We know all the things. Whereas the 20, most, I feel like, like help, like, uh, volunteers and youth are like 19. They went to college for a year and they came back and then they're like, we can volunteer. So they're like, they're still in

the same stage as like the other ones. Do you think that could, that's not good or it could be good or depends on where they're at? I just feel like they're just not really qualified for, I mean, they're like a step qualified. Like they can, you know, but I, I, I feel like it's the, the people that are a stage like from that, that know what is going through. So I feel like maybe like some of the parents can be like really investing in the 20 to 22 year olds that are investing into your kids and talking about how do we talk to, you know, and stuff. So. I wonder how, again,

it's hard for me to base my view on teenagers based on our kids. Cause our kids are our kids. There might be different, but I just, I mean, all of our kids would be super eager. If like an adult, an intentional adult said, yeah, I would love to take you out to lunch. I want to get to know you. They took them out. They asked them a bunch of questions, listened really well. All of it, right?

I mean, our kids. It doesn't matter what age. Like, it's not like they. They would love it if they were 60 years old or something like that. Yeah. Or 25. Yeah. Yeah, I don't.

I think sometimes older people think kids don't want to be around them. It's like, well, what? Well, it's not your age. It's maybe how you approach them too. Right. Like, like our kids have always said, I'm not looking for a 30 year old friend. Right. Like I'm looking at a friend, my age sounds better, but like a mentor, like, sure.

I'm looking for a mentor that's older than me. So I feel like sometimes. Like you don't need to pretend like you're 18 and try to know my music, whatever. Yeah, be so cool and kind of like, like really hang with the conversation with them. Like that's actually just not, I don't know any of them,

any teenagers that would like love that. Like, so it's like act your age. If you're 40, act 40. And, but like care about them, invest in them, talk to them, ask them hard questions and be the person that they would want to come to for advice. Not the person that they're going to say, I'm bored Friday night. What should we do?

Let's call up the 40-year-old leader. You know, like that's just not our role. I wonder how common that is. I would love to know like how many, what percentage of the average church-going teenager would actually want an adult to hang out with an adult, an adult to invest in them? I think it would be pretty high, but I don't, I don't know. Like a great survey. I think it's just some random teenagers I've come across. I'm like, I don't think you would want to hang out with me. Like, I don't,

but maybe that's just the front. Maybe that's just the assumption that we old people have about young people like, Oh, they wouldn't want to hang out. And our kids would be the first to say, and maybe it's not every kid would say this, but just that they don't see like a 19, 20 year old as a mentor necessarily. Like it may be like could help and something, but they would say, I don't know. Do you know much about life too? I feel like you're still kind of in that, you know? So, and that's not to down, like we need them, like we really do need them, but we also need like training of them. Like they still need to be mentored, like in their, you know, post high school, um, time. So just, I think, yeah,

I think somebody said to us the other day, just like, I'd never turned down anybody who wanted, who offered to help and volunteer. And I was like i'm not i just don't know it's too crucial of a role to say i'll just take anybody i mean great then can you like help bring the you know the go pick up the pizzas for i mean not that that's the only thing you have to do but like if somebody wants to help like there's other ways but like if you're like if they just like anybody wants to just help and you're putting them into like a bigger position it just feels like this feels like a disaster what else i mean this is i don't we don't need to go too much longer on this but i don't know i just how it does sound a little

idealistic to say we need high quality intentional volunteers of the youth group. It's like, what would it take to get that? Um, I think part of it is public, like you said, like, like a real public clear, like this is a need. We need people. This is, and, and talk about how valuable this is for the kingdom of God. This is the next generation. It's unlike any other generation in the history of humanity. They're going through all kinds of stuff. This is a frontline ministry need. We need some, some top gun. We need the top of the top to come and help out, you know? I don't know.

Yeah. But is that enough? Like if I heard that message, would I go volunteer? I'm like, I'm still, I get it, but I'm still kind of busy, you know? I don't know. Like, is there. I would. Cause I'm like, I'm still, I get it, but I'm still kind of busy. You know, I don't know. Like, is there, I would, cause I care about investing in, I, I have like, I don't have time for just filling in on, you know, just going to play four square. I mean, not that that's not a, like, I love playing games. I love having fun. But if, if we're taking the time that we have kids

where it's our time to invest and adding that, I just don't have time for that. Like, Hey, I'm like, come over all Friday night. Let's swim. Let's play volleyball. Let's have a great time. But if, if like our time, when we have these kids is to teach and train, I just don't have time to just, so I would, I would, if, if, if it was like, can you volunteer a couple hours of your week to invest in the next generation? Yeah. I hope that there'd be a lot more people that would say yes and make that meaningful and real.

But, and if you did get a bunch of, I would have a, I, again, maybe I wouldn't have any volunteers at the end of the day, but like I would have a serious screening process. Even something like, even something like certain personalities somebody's so shy they don't know how to ask a question i'm like you die you don't meet the criteria sorry like if you come to youth group and you're kind of awkward he's saying or you don't know how to like get to know a teenager and ask good meaningful questions that's part of the criteria you have people ask but people don't there's i mean our kids share stories of different groups a bit apart i'm like ah so how's you know explain it to us and sometimes

when they describe volunteers or even leaders it's kind of a little cringy i'm like why yeah i'm not okay with that but if you're doing this good job keep going in your church if you're doing this, good job. Keep going in your church. If you're a youth pastor that is being meaningful and taking this seriously, great. I mean, I just feel like that's where you're doing the right thing. Invest so much energy in that in your church. And it's not... Okay, here might be the key. It can't be left up to the youth pastor alone to cultivate this. It has to be from the top down because every church has its kind of like emphases, right? You have the church

that are in the missions, you have the church that are into like poverty relief, the church that does a good preaching and worship and the church goers take on that kind of passion, right? Ethnic reconciliation, whatever. Like I remember somebody told me years ago about, um, they went to David's Platt's church. This is years ago when he was, I don't know where he was at Alabama or something. And, um, I said, Oh, so how's, how's it, what's it like going to David Platt's church? And he said, in all seriousness, he goes, well, it's not, it's not really like a church. It's more like a sending agency. Like he's so big into missions that the whole DNA of the church from top down is all about missions.

I think he even hauled a bunch of like junk on stage for a year because it's like, this is how most of the world lives in the midst of just like poverty and stuff. And like, it was such a supreme value that people breathe that air. So if pouring into the next generation is a supreme value, which again, give me the counter argument. There is no counter argument. Nobody's going to say like, well, it's not that important. Like everybody on paper is going to say, this is real. This is a huge, huge need. Okay. Then let's reflect that. And if that is the air we breathe in our church rhythms, I think, right? Yeah. People will come out of the woodwork and it would be awkward not to want to invest in that.

You think? Is that too ideal? I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah? It's too ideal? No. Yes.

You can let me know if you think I'm full of crap, Chris. You can do it on the air, too. Okay. All right. I got a question for you. Okay. Okay. So what about, how do you, how would you say we are doing with balancing serious conversations and like, and ministry versus like fun life? And just, you know, cause I feel like both you and I have that, we can easily like turn off and be like, okay, too much of all that.

Let's, so how do you, how do you feel like, because it could be very easy to be just so like involved in like all these things and everything's like so disappointing and you know, the church and all the things. And, and it's just like at the end day, we have a great life. We love life. How do we, how would you say we do in that of like balancing that and like personally i feel like on the whole both you and i especially last not especially last just in general we do work hard play hard would you say that i mean we when we sometimes we work

a lot and intense and traveling and this that and you wake up lord knows when you wake up in the morning to work you know that little marine commercial where like you know we get done we get more done before like 7 a.m than most people it's like you get more done before the marines even wake up before i just want longer time to play so if i can get it done. So I'm going to wake up at like three to work till whatever. When we take time off, like we, you know, years ago, our board said, take the month of June off. It's a, it's a low season. There's not a lot of stuff going on. You typically work really hard in the spring. So take like a month off and we've done that, you know, and when he, you know, December slows down with a lot of

stuff and we, we are our own bosses with everything we do. So we can decide, hey, we need a day off Friday. Hey, we're going to take Monday off. So we do have a lot of flexibility and do, I think, we try not to overwork ourselves, but we also do work very hard when we're doing that. I think for me and for you in the last few years, the line between work and not work is really blurred. And I think it has its benefits and it has its negatives too. We both work from home. We are scheduled just, I mean, looking at my email is, can be part of work. Well, I might check. I probably shouldn't't but maybe 10 at night while i'm watching

the game i'll check my email i'm like oh gosh okay i gotta deal with that and then we'll ask you hey do you want to go you know what this church is asking did it and so yeah it'll just be like kind of like and then we'll be like oh should we really be talking about that right now when we're watching the game or a movie or whatever i and i don't know if we always do a good job of like yeah shutting things down at say 6 p.m and all right we're not gonna look at anything it's like it's just kind of woven into what we do it hasn't i don't know i don't think it's gotten too annoying i don't think do you think i mean there's times when you'll be like hey do you want to speak in louisville or something like look in the middle

of a movie like i don't ask me tomorrow i don't know yeah yeah i think we're just aware of it too yeah where so we'll try to gauge and you know just be oh i don't know we'll figure that out later let's just have fun or just enjoy you know but just being aware of making sure that our life is balanced with um yeah just things in life that are just normal things of life and not conquering the world at all times. Well, you're way, way more in tune with that than I am. Yeah. If it's not balanced, I can't do it. Like you feel it.

If you're not having fun, at least, I mean, sometime during the week, you know, like. Multiple times. A day. Let's just go with the day. Like right now, I'm like'm like okay i've been working really hard and as soon as i'm done with this i'm gonna gotta go out and do something fun do you think other people are like that no do you i mean it's awful to be like me yeah no i yeah probably not i mean we know lots of people that like they don't have that need

yeah they might need a vacation once a year or something or every now and then have some people over go out to dinner but in terms of like just needing to really have some fun that usually involves being outside physical something you know and i just need to laugh like just you notice when i'm not laughing if i don't laugh there's been a stretch of not laughing i just feel it in my heart and my soul. So I think that's why my, our oldest daughter that we just moved out. I sometimes when I just, I'm like, I just want to call her and just say,

just make me laugh. And whatever she says just makes me, and it just, that just resets my clock and just resets like all the things in me. So she's got comedian level humor, really like the stuff she says or so. I know. And this,

so sex, not everyone get no hardly anybody gets to hear it or see it it's just like you would never yeah people wouldn't know that and she like literally makes us laugh till we're crying yeah oh my god and not meaningfully no she's not trying to be funny which is why she's like a comedian she just says things that you shouldn't know we're all thinking sometimes that other people's expense says the quiet part out loud. We've talked. Okay. So here's a, I guess a, a direction we can go. I mean, you know,

we have one kid out of the house three at home pretty and they're all two years apart. So, I mean, we're, we're doing a slow roll and it being empty nesters. And to be honest, kind of freaks both of us out right yeah i've been asking you what do we want to do for the next 40 years in like five years yes we are going to so what do you want to do in five years what are we gonna do for the next 40 years 40 86 goodness no it's not too old yeah no, no. There's people listening. They're like 88. They're like, hey. We're still worth it.

40. That's crazy. Because, yeah, I know people that are. So I feel like, yeah. And I feel like I just have all kinds of like bucket lists that are just fun things. But I know I'm not going to spend the rest of our life doing bucket lists. I want you to share some of your bucket with us. Okay. We are going to ride through the Sahara in dune buggies.

And I'm going to be all done up with my scarf. With your hijab or whatever. Yes. And I just want to fly through the Sahara Desert in the dune buggy. And then we did find this salt lake that's in the middle sea right siwa siwa it's like two hours east of cairo yeah and it has these natural springs that are like awkward like i'm talking like tahiti yeah level water in the middle of the desert so we're probably go there we'll have like picnic lunch we'll swim in it um and so I feel like that's just like one of the many things.

But I think you picture yourself driving to Dune Park. Me and you. Like what's that movie with Matthew McConaughey? Yeah. I want really big sunglasses with my thing. Where he's got the old boat and he's like going across the deck. But I don't think you can do that. You probably can't.

I don't think Americans can do this. But I'm'm gonna get him to sit in the back for a few and just let me let us feel like it just does too that's one of the things we're gonna get shot we're gonna get if we break down our kids are gonna be like did mom and dad ever come back okay so that's one you've said that for a while. Drive across the Sahara. Not across because we know that that's like... 2,000 miles. Yeah, but far enough to feel like you're, you know... All your bucket lists are travel stuff, right?

Yeah, for sure. I want to see the whole world. What's another one? Machu Picchu or... No, and I'm not... I mean, I want to go there, but those are not... They don't make it to my bucket list. They just get a part of like, that's what we what we're gonna do is it because they're too common

you like to do things that are other people i have a picture also somewhere and i know i've seen it but i need to do some more research but you can hike into um full cities that are built in the rock of like a whole face and people live in there and they have to like walk like bring all their stuff no no it's like asian countries like somewhere in there like anyways if anybody's listening and have been there please tell me because i'm doing trying to research it a little bit like i i know i've seen it on like different like things but just something like that too just like seeing the way so many people live like in a rock like a full like little town you know so yeah so anyway all this though is balancing work and pleasure i want to hear more

no no no that's all that's all you guys get one more one more one more bucket list okay here's something else there are you didn't ask me my bucket list oh do you want to say well now i'm all i don't know i've always wanted to have a like a beach house in mexico and surf all week or all month or maybe the rest of my life or something but um but we kind of did that we went to a site and that was that was that really was i mean i think i told you in passing there you know he's like when i speak my mind which i really do but you know like this has been a dream to like have a cool little beach town surfing every day yeah chips and salsa margaritas tacos amazing i'd go back to tahiti in a heartbeat but i probably won't return if i do that but

okay there are people in life that are starters and those that are continuers maintainers and i think it is very hard for starters. I feel like starters get criticized a lot. And so I feel like, yeah, maybe, I don't know if we want to talk about this. So which one are you? Because I feel like I've thought through this a lot. Well, I spent, we've been married 20 years. 21. 20 something. 21. No, this May is 21. This May. 21. No, this May is 21. Uh, this May was 21. Oh, okay. 21 and a half years. Well, no, not even 21 years. Okay. And I feel like I spent maybe those 15 years feeling like there's some, like I'm discontent or I'm like always searching for something else and just super

dissatisfied. And I felt like I was always trying to correct that in myself of like, just like learn to be fine with, you know, volunteering and doing this and like with the no end in sight, you know, and, and I just, but it was like, but for some reason I just always was feeling dissatisfied at the end of the day or And then what I realized in the last six years is that there are starters. And both you and I are that. We are so excited about starting something, big even, like something that is like and working really hard at it. And then once it gets to a place where it can just be people that can run it and maintain it or do it, that's where we lose all of our steam. And I feel like,

I think it's important for people to know which one you are. There's not one that's better than the other. Not everybody's called to be starters or be the pioneers or the people that are tackling something different. It's not like that. They're better than the people that are tackling something different, it's not like that. They're better than any, like the people that are like faithfully going to maintain or keep going with what you started. And I think, but, but I think, um, if you're a starter, I think you probably deal with like feeling like, oh, should I just be content? Should I just be satisfied?

Should I like, God's's like we now got this why are my like now net looking for the next thing and stuff and so i think um i just want to yeah like i there's just um yeah you feel guilty when if someone says hey can you volunteer to be a greeter you're like i'm just not yeah i'm just filling a hole seems like you know the didn't sound elitist you're like well no the greeter is valuable too like i don't want to downplay that i just i just don't feel like that like i want to restructure the entire theology or system of greeting like yeah yeah like train them and get like like yeah talk about what's talk about what's behind this. What are we trying to accomplish?

And it does sound fussy. It sounds judgy, but that's not the heart. Like, for instance, we just talked about this yesterday, like, you know, preaching. Could I volunteer to preach at our church? I'm like, yeah, I could totally do that. Why does that not excite me? Because I think like, okay, people come in, they listen to a 45-minute sermon. It does, it contributes on some level probably to some people's discipleship.

And then they go home, they come back and they do it again, do it again, do it again. If I do preach, that will take a little bit of load off the lead pastor. Okay. So that's, there's value there. I think it could impact people's lives, but I step back and say, what is the philosophy of preaching? Are we doing this like sheeps just because this is what we've always done? And maybe, maybe the answer is no, this is the best use of our time.

Okay. That's the answer. But have we actually thought really deeply and critically about why we're doing what we're doing? Am I just filling a hole and putting my thumb in a hole in a boat, you know? Okay. I'm going to withhold some water for five minutes. And then when I let go, it's going to keep pouring out. If I don't preach, what's going to happen to somebody's discipleship journey? Probably not. I don't, am I too cynical to say probably nothing. Somebody else will preach, they'll listen, they'll forget what they said by Tuesday, they'll come back the next Sunday and do it again. So this is where my mind

goes. Yeah. So is that, I don't, and I battle with like, is that wrong thinking on my part? Should I just shut up and do it and stop thinking so hard, but I'm constantly just always thinking about, is this the best, most meaningful use of all of our times? Or do we need to look at some more, you know, fundamental changes? Anyway, I'm talking too much, but that's how you think too, right? Yeah. But that's where like in the past I would be like, well, yeah, you probably should be like more content with just doing that. And now I'm like, if you're not wired that way, it's never like, that's not the best use of your time. Like the best use of your time is like getting your hands in and creating, starting, revamping, changing culture. I mean, that's why we're doing what we do is like, that is part of our heartbeat. So I feel like, um, yeah, if, if it

just, I think it's important to understand who God's created, created you to be in that, because if not, you, you just feel like you're just trying to be somebody that you're not and trying to, you know, so, I mean, I would start up a whole youth program or revamp a whole youth program. And then I would train those who can do the thing like on a daily basis or weekly or whatever. But if it was for me to just do the one thing, like for the next several years, it just, it's just not where I'm wired. I'm not saying I can't do it. And I get somebody asked you to volunteer in a youth program when you just see several layers of things that could be, should be changed. Yeah.

It'd be hard for you just to volunteer, keep your lip shut, you know, and just like keep your head down and just do what you're called to do. That's hard for both of us. And then some people are the opposite where they would never know how to get some things at a different level or know how to like change things or anything, but yet they're going to be the faithful people doing what you've created. And I feel like, so that's so wonderful. Get them to like, once something started, Hey, this is how it continues to impact the kingdom. And you bring in those people to the, who want to do that. Um, and I feel like it works Then it, you know, but. This is the hard thing with, I do feel bad.

I do sometimes feel like, am I just not a team player? Because like whenever I participate in somebody else's thing, my mind immediately just kind of looks like, oh, there's better ways we can do this and this. How can we're doing that or whatever? And I just feel like, oh, am I just not a, and not exclusively, there's just some, a lot of churches I go speak at, I'm like, man, this seems like great. Like, this is like, oh man, I feel like they, they, people are in their lane, they're doing things, not afraid to question the structures and stuff.

But I typically will get asked to speak at those kinds of churches, not even the more just kind of traditional churches. But, um, but then I do feel, I don't know. I don't, I don't think it's good. Always good to be just such an independent person or thinker.

I don't know the hard balance, but where do people like you and I belong? That's a topic of our constant conversation. I've said this online so i can or before so i can say it like we in our 21 years of marriage we haven't had the easiest journey with churches we've been part a lot of churches and i do feel like it's not always the easiest fit for us because well i don't know why do you think that is? No, you answer it. You're throwing us under the bus. This is a conversation you're taking.

I've said this publicly and who hasn't really? I mean, I think I've never heard anybody say like, wow, I don't, whoa, really? Like what's, I can't believe, you know, you haven't just fit right into a church. So, and we love the church. Everything I do is for the church, the ecclesia, the people of God. It's just anytime there's kind of like structures in place, my natural, my mind is naturally going to say, okay, how can we do this thing most effectively, meaningfully, authentically? What's our outcome? What's our mission? Are we accomplishing that? Are we pulling the wool over our eyes? I think it's hard. I think all of life is just making me think everything's like that. It's like finding the balance of like, I'm just

even thinking like boys that like our girls, right? It's like, if we want to talk about them as a person of themselves, like I have lots of things to say positive and stuff. If we're talking about them for my girls, then okay. That's a whole different story. So I feel like there's two different conversations. So I see what you're saying. Yeah. I just lost my train of thought. Well, if I'm just going to attend something, then yes, I can do that. It's fine. You know? Um, but if you're asking me to be a part of it, then I've got a thousand questions about like, if I'm just going to attend something, then I can do that. It's fine, you know? But if you're asking me to be a part of it, then I've got a thousand questions about like, what are we doing here?

I couldn't figure out why I said that. But yeah. And I feel like that's why I feel like in churches, we get to a certain point where like we go and we're like, it's fantastic. It's great. They are doing a good job. They're mean. Well, they're that kind of stuff.

As soon as we like start getting involved, that's when it messes us up where I'm like, well, it does. And so it's like, do you want us to just, well, because then it's like, I can't help not think of these things. I can't, I like, I would love to turn off my mind and say, just don't think of any ways of things to do better. I mean, I feel like we are built to be leaders. So, I mean, it's just, that's the plan that God has like put us in. And so it's like, I can't not be in that. So if we're

just talking about like, what are the great things that are, is going on here? I feel like I can totally say that and I can celebrate that and I can enjoy it. And then as soon as we have to like step into like now being a part and helping and being like involved, that's when it just is like, all right, well, I can't do it in that way because I see so many things that it's not like correct with that or doing, you know, so it's a hard balance. And then that's why I was saying about boys for girls. It's just like, just as a person, you're a fantastic person. You're wanting to date our daughters. Okay. No, you're not a fantastic person for our daughters. And I feel bad, you know, thinking that, but it's like, everyone has a standard. You have a standard

for church. You have a standard for who you want to spend your time with. And so, yeah. I never thought it'd be the shotgun dad, but man. How many times have I told you, remember you're a pacifist. Boys around my girl that drives the pacifism right out of you. Oh my word. Well, the non pacifists are happy to hear that. Yeah.

Yeah. We'll see. My gosh. I got a story. I was going to retell my question. Oh, probably shouldn't. Is one of our kids.

No, no, no. Oh, okay. I'll tell it. Cause everybody wants to know. oh probably shouldn't it's one of our kids no no no okay i'll tell it because everybody wants to know it you should be no there was that time when i was you were we're meeting this is a few months ago and you were crossing i was meeting you but i happened to pull it up crossing the street and you're, it's hard to kind of describe the scenarios. Well, I'll describe it.

I was so happy. I was like, I was like this. I was like, we were meeting some friends for lunch. You were just coming in. I was talking to my daughter on the phone. It was like really like, it was like a really fun feeling. And I crossed the street to go to lunch and there was this car pulling up and there was a crosswalk.

So I didn't jaywalk or jump in front of the car or anything i just started walking across and i was waving pulled in i was in front so i had already pulled the park so i didn't see yeah yeah you were like one car in front of him so you pulled in and i waved to our friends across the street and was like hey like this and the car stops in front of me and you can say flips me off yeah and he called me the b word and uh i don't know who your audience is um it's like watch where you're going and then uh i was like i looked at him i'm like wait what and then they slant drive off and it was such a scene everybody eating dinner like lunch right there was just like, what in the world?

And so when you came around, I was like, I even said it like funnily. I'm like, oh my gosh, I just got flipped off and swore it out. And somebody was mad at me for crossing the street. And you were literally going to go find them. I'm like, oh, what are you going to do? Run after them? Oh, man. No, I just come from the gym oh no I was so so I was like

amped up and everything I had a really great workout and I was excited to see my it was like there was just like an adrenaline and when you told me that once I cooled down I was honestly so thankful that he was gone I know because I know if I'm if I'm honest, I actually would have most likely violated my- See, and that's good for people to know that a pacifist- I don't know, is it? Well, no, in that you believe what the Bible says in it. It doesn't mean that you have none of the emotions of like what you want to do. I mean, you're still a person that has feelings and has anger problems and has adrenaline.

And so it's like- I would have reached the guy's window. I would have- Okay, okay. No, no I'm serious I'm just being honest like as I was imagining I'm like when I was so angry that he drove off but then when I cooled down I was like I'm so thankful he wasn't there because I but you know what I'm saying this helps like with your view on what the bible says about violence is that it's not just about your feelings. Like, it's like, I feel like, or saying, I don't feel like killing. I don't feel like hurting anyone. Like, like, like it makes it sound like, like someone who just wouldn't have any bit of like, want like adrenaline in that way. That's not where you come to this conclusion. It's like what you see says in the scriptures.

And so you have to abide by what you believe the scripture says, even though when it's hard. So I think, I just think that's an important part for you to like. And whatever I would have done there, I would have turned there. I would have had to repent because I would have believed that was sin to physically violate somebody. You know, you are madder than me. I'm getting worked up now.

Yeah. You weren't even mad. I was like that poor guy, the way he, like he, he has to be so miserable. Was he kind of an older guy? Was he like older than me?

No, 50. He must've been so miserable in his own life to just be so mad at me happily walking across the road. Like there was something like very sad because he did not answer, but it's like whether he was like sad, mad, hurt, like maybe it triggered something, you know, that I don't know what it was, but I'm like, people shouldn't be that angry for somebody crossing the road. And so I was like, that, that's sad that he has to live like that. Troubled childhood.

I don't always have that feeling, but I did then. We kind of went off the rails on, we went from balancing fun and work to your bucket list. So when our kids, here's the honest conversation, honestly, we're in the middle of having, here's the honest conversation honestly we're in the middle of having is um when our kids leave the house since especially for you like fun is kind of built into your needs and a lot of your fun is wrapped up in the kids right yeah we have lots of fun with the kids so when we wake up to a quiet house yeah that sounds really well we are to pick up dancing because I love dancing and you don't. And I can't stand dancing. And we just have to. So I want to go clubbing. I want to go

line dancing. So we're going to do that. That's part of my bucket list. Keep you off the tables. Yeah, that's just not me. But it's fun. I'll go kayaking or something what that's the

thing like some of the stuff some of the fun things we can do you can there's only so many you can only do so much of that i mean yeah like we found a hot i think finding a hobby is kind of hard like i would i think we're going to continue doing what we're doing i mean it like part of like like i mean there's there's nothing more that gets us up. It just has to be balanced. Like what we do, we like love what we do. Our ministry and work. Meaningful. That is what is going to keep us going till, you know, we'll start up new things. I mean, we're going to like keep moving with just, that's how we're wired. But, but it's just going to be balanced with fun and we just need to find fun friends. And I've told you the other day, friends that you can say,

let's just have a really good time tonight and not talk about anything serious. And then other times where it's like, those are the same people. You'd be like, I need to talk about something, just being able to, you know, so I think just, and we've been talking about some of the couple friends that we have and just having like once a year where it's just us going away with them and having just a good time because we're all empty nesters and we still need to enjoy life outside of, you know, in the new stage of what we're going through. So if you had to pick up a hobby, what would it be? Anyone?

Mountain biking? No, I don't have one power walking not that i don't have a hobby it's just i don't have a hobby that i'm going to want to pick up when all the kids are gone like i feel like whatever hobbies i love to do i do even with that's what i'm saying like you and i together i'm trying to think of what we would do together that would be fun that we would laugh with no kids. That would be enjoyable. I can't think like, what would that be?

Hmm. I don't know. Why do I keep saying kayaking? We got that big canoe. We haven't used it yet. Oh, I know we'll find some stuff, but maybe you guys can email us with some ideas.

I've wanted, I've wanted i've wanted to like mountain biking boise is a huge mountain biking community and i've just never i don't know i just can't wait to get on the mountain and people are like they thrive on that i just have never had that kind of spark i've done it and i like it you know surfing is the only like physical hobby that i would say i naturally want to get up at five in the morning to go do. There's nothing else that would make me want to get out of bed. Not that I wouldn't enjoy other things.

Snowboarding is close. Snowboarding is close. But I think the whole ambiance of surfing too is, yeah. River surfing. That's what we have here. That just doesn't make sense. I probably do need to try that out. Just do it.

But yeah. Okay. Well, we're going to make it for 40 more years. I would love to know from somebody who is an empty nester, who was very, very intertwined with the kids. Because we are. We work from home. Our kids have homeschooled in the past and been around.

We're with our... We've spent a lot of time with our kids just in the natural rhythm of life. So for us being empty nesters, I think is, is going to be extra hard. Um, I would love to know from somebody who has gone through that transition and done it well. And like, what would they recommend? I think, I mean, the advice you always hear is you guys need to start dating again now and having fun and doing stuff. And, and I think, yeah, having like, it can't just be me and you. And this goes back to, I guess, my theology of marriage. Like we do need other people and community and friends and, you know, we're just sitting around staring at each other. Yeah.

I think it's hard because it's like when you're in the trenches of parenting, it's like all like, it's all you're doing is like parenting and you know, you have your other things and that kind of stuff, but you, kind of your friends are wrapped up into that, right? Like friends, like with other kids, the same age and that kind of stuff. And, and, and then all of a sudden your kids are in like at the stage that we're at, where they're doing all kinds of stuff on their own. They're still in the house, but they are always doing stuff. And then we, we look around and we think, wow, our friendships were so wrapped up in like with our kids.

And so we're just trying to find that. And I think we're doing a good job. Like, I mean, we're aware of it and trying to do that. So it's more like instead of it like always thinking, let's do this with as families. It's more, hey, let's the adults go do that. Or, you know, and trying to instill that. So I think just, um, and I wouldn't do anything different though, honestly, like what's not like now knowing what I have now, what I have changed. No, I like it. It's parenting is all like, it takes every bit of you. And so I wouldn't have just, um, I think we tried the best that we could in fostering friendships and stuff. But it's like it couldn't, we didn't have very much freedom or options.

And so now we're in that stage and now we're just, you know, like just setting a new pace and that kind of stuff. So. Is that good? Yeah. Close it out? I had a couple more parenting questions, but I do got to go get my teeth checked. All right, friends. Well, thanks for listening to Theology in a Raw.

You've been listening to Preston and Chris talk about, how do you say it in French? N'importe quoi. N'importe quoi. Yeah, that's good. Did I say that right? Rien du tout. Nothing at all.

All right, friends. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on the show. Thanks, Chris, for coming down to my basement and chatting it up. Anytime. we'll see you next time on the show thanks chris for coming down to my basement and chatting up anytime This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.