Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1020: #1020 - Marriage, Sexuality, and the Christian Worldview: Lou Phillips

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

Lou Phillips is the Director of Church Relations for The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender. Before working for The Center, Lou was a highly sought after speaker on apologetics on college campuses and largely focused on questions about seuxuality. In this conversation, Lou and I talk about younger Christians and how they are wrestling with questions related to seuxality and gender. We also get into some broader questions related to the veracity of Christianity.  If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information! 

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is a new friend of mine, Lou Phillips. I met Lou through a mutual friend a few months ago. We got to know each other. Then the more I got to know Lou, the more I'm like, man, you would make a great fit for the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. So we actually recently hired Lou as our Director of Church Relations. Lou studied at Oxford University for a year, and he has spent many years, about eight years, speaking on college campuses, like secular college campuses, largely about the topic of Christian sexuality. And he just has a great way of communicating God's word in a winsome, gracious, articulate way, especially when he's in like really volatile environments.

Like that doesn't seem to bother him at all. So we just, this conversation kind of went all over the map on all things related to sex, sexuality, apologetics, the gospel, the church, Gen Z, and so on and so forth. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Lou Phillips. Hi, hey friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here in the basement live, recording live. What is this? We're both physically in the basement, the Theology in the Raw basement.

And I'm here with Lou Phillips. Lou is a guy I've gotten to know over the last few months, really. But man, we just, you know, those moments where you're talking to somebody and you just end up finishing each other's sentences. And I feel like that's what it's been like, as we talk about like a theology of marriage and singleness, especially, and just even LGBTQ stuff, a lot of like-mindedness. So anyway, thanks for coming down to my basement. I'm kind of hot down here right now. It's a privilege to be here. Thank you for having me. So I wanted to have you on the podcast because you have spent the last like eight years doing kind of like apologetic type speaking largely in audiences where secular audiences,

college campuses, like you've been in pretty, like probably really intense spaces talking about really intense, controversial things. And I remember at first asking you like, oh my gosh, is that super stressful? Like, no, I love it. Like, this is great. Like, are people yelling and screaming at you? And you're like, no, it's, it's been like really great. So why don't you tell us a little bit about, yeah, what you've been doing the last eight years? I mean, I kind of said, Yeah, I mean, I got really passionate about the topic of sexuality kind of early on. It was something, as a Christian, I just tried to take seriously. It was something I really respected how my parents actually kind of addressed the topic.

My dad was kind of like, if you're old enough to ask questions, you're old enough to know answers to those questions. And I think some might disagree, but I loved it. It's like when I was just trying to figure some things out, my dad was real clear. So like, this is who we are as Christians. This is what God believes. This is what you're kind of expected to do. And so I would say that that understanding of sexuality was just ingrained in me really early on. And so I always wanted to honor God with my sexuality. But I grew up with the youngest of six kids. So, and I was kind of the black sheep of the family in the sense that all my siblings got married kind of young. I mean, early twenties,

all of them. And, you know, my first sibling got married when I was like nine or 10 and I became an uncle when I was 16 years old. So I've been around marriage and family for a long time and I've loved it. But one thing I really saw was like, I think it was being oversold is the way I would describe it. And yeah, marriage and marriage and family. It's like, this is, this is the end all be all. And I don't mean it as in like, it wasn't an intentional thing. It was actually just the way people live their lives. And I just got to sit back and see, it's like, well, wait a second there. I found a contentment in a, just satisfaction in my relationship with Christ. Like there was just something there was like, nothing's going to be able to, to satisfy the inner angst of my soul quite like God himself.

Cause I was ultimately created for him and to know him and to love him. So there was like this, I felt like from Christians, there was just this overselling, like, this is the thing that is going to satisfy you. And yet when I saw it, and again, I saw it up close and I'm not talking about, it's not like my siblings' marriages are bad. They're good. Like they're healthy. They're, um, they have phenomenal families and even my parents, but I just kept seeing like there there's, this is not the answer. I can just tell you that I know it enough in my heart. And so singleness was just a big thing for me.

And, and I loved being single. Um, I just recently got married. That's why I'm saying I loved being single. Um, but I really was at the point of like, I don't, I don't even know if I'm going to get married just because I've found such contentment in who Christ created me in my relationship with him. So I give you that whole backstory just to be like, so I've been really passionate about speaking on this topic because I feel like the topic of sexuality is the largest obstacle to people accepting the gospel. Younger people?, primarily younger people? I would say predominantly young people, but it's still affecting my age and even above me right now. Because I think, unfortunately, we as a church, we've just done a very poor job of explaining why we believe what we believe.

I think we've given people the most shallow, cheap version of the truth. You know, we talk about how Christ is the bread of life. Like, He's the one that's satisfied. He's the one that's created us to be in relationship with him. But the way we live our lives is actually that marriage and family will actually be that thing. And so we're, we're telling a bunch of people, Oh no, no, no. Christ is the satisfying thing. We act like marriages. And then we tell a whole group of people, but you can't have it. And we want to know why people are so frustrated with what we have to say. And part of it is because we're, we're idolizing something that isn't the true thing. It's not the ultimate thing.

And so as I've been speaking on this, I'm trying to get, especially when I'm in secular context, I'm just trying to initially just try to show people I'm not arbitrarily bigoted. Like I've actually really thought deeply about this. And I think there's some things, some answers that Christians have given that just aren't biblical that I've been trying to correct. But then there's things like, no, no, like there's some truth to why we believe what people have been telling you, but here's the greater truth behind that. And so I love it.

I think it's, and I mean, you asked like, does it get, did it get hostile? My answer is no, because I think there's a, I think one, we like to caricaturize people on both sides. I think you, all of us, we treat Christians like a monolith and people of the LGBTQ plus community as monoliths. So we assume like, and you hear these vocal arguments. But when you- It's a loud minority on the fringe that you think represents the majority.

Every time I've had conversations with people that completely disagree with me, but are willing to actually hear me out and I'll answer any question they have for you, it goes so well. Are they running to the cross? No, but they are making one step. They're like, I didn't know Christianity said that. They've been introduced to a better version of what they assume Christianity. Yeah, and that's what I'm, I'm just trying to remove that barrier. But now, I mean, as you know, this is one of the reasons I just am so passionate about this topic.

It's like, I'm really trying to focus on the church now because I feel like I've been trying to compel those who, as somebody that was doing apologetics and evangelism, I was really passionate about getting people that didn't know the Christian gospel to know it and accept it and live for him. But I found myself preaching things about sexuality that the churches that I was involved in, the Christians that I was surrounded with, inviting their friends to come to the church, but the churches that I was involved in, the Christians that are surrounded with inviting their friends to come to the church, but the churches didn't believe what I was saying or didn't know what I was saying.

Or, and so I was like, okay, we really need to make sure we, we get the church to know this topic. Well, um, stay theologically grounded.

We don't need to fold on our, our, our beliefs. I, I don't believe that for a second, but there's a way to go about this that matters. Um, and that can truly impact people's lives. And that's why, yeah, long answer. No, that's fine.

Um, you've been on the campus, uh, or you said like MIT, uh, name a few that other people. Yeah, I was, um, so I was, I was living in Maine, um, just, just north of Boston. So I was on, yeah, Boston university, university new hampshire um colby college um some other schools but then also around the country too i was just based out of new england but then yeah i was just traveling around what are some main i'm curious like when you go and you speak and you always have like a q a time or is that like yeah no that was that's my favorite thing in the world actually i actually do but i want to do i want to do as little speaking as possible i just want to talk long enough to give us a diving platform to get into what they want to actually talk about because it's like i don't

know where you're at i don't know what question you really have i can take some assumption based off of i know where the conversation is so yeah no i would always probably do about twice the amount if not three times the amount of q a time versus how much time i'd speak yeah i want to come back to that i wonder if there's because that seems to be what people want i don't know like whenever i go speak on on this topic and maybe the venue is kind of different it's it's that kind of down-to-earth real dialogical audience involved kind of in the environment i think a lot of people really like and they learn from. And the question I always have is how come we don't do that in church? Is it, oh, no, that works out here, but not in the church?

Or is it just, well, people wouldn't know what to do with that? Anyway, I'll come back to that. But what are some questions that primarily non-Christians have asked you? Like anything stand out, like really good questions or even when you gave a response to somebody and they're like, oh, wow. And they really kind of thought through it. Like, are there moments that stand out or like, man, that was really a kind of a most unpredictable moment or like a really sweet God moment? Yeah. You know, there was one time I was speaking to the University of Massachusetts,

Amherst, and we were doing a series of five-day event series on a college campus. And it was great. And I was doing Q&A, and someone just stood up. It was a very frustrated student. This is the one time it didn't go that well. But he just gets up and starts using pretty graphic language about how much he enjoys sex and how this is. The church is like sober i grew up in a baptist church and i've just been so repressed all these boom boom boom boom

just like kept just swearing and all that i'll say oh and i i mean i like i love when someone can speak to me candidly i love i hate that false sense of like pacific i mean he was just aggressive and i was like good like i and i share with him and my heart actually just broke he was just aggressive and I was like, good. Like I, and I share with him and my heart actually just broke. He was somebody that was so lied to actually by the church. He wasn't, the things he was saying that the church told him, like, ah, I wish, I wish you would have known that that wasn't true. Actually. Um, some of it does get into the purity of some of it was just like this idea of like, if you're even remotely, if you're living in sin, like having any type of sexual immorality, you will be miserable. You won't even love life.

And he's just like, well, I'm actually really loving this. So you guys just lied to me. And so I loved being able to sit there, not retaliate. I didn't come at him like, don't, how dare you use that language. I actually, I told him, I was like, I appreciate your candor. I love how candid you were with me. which I actually, I told him, I was like, I appreciate your candor. I love how candid you were with me. And I just was like, one, I just want to say I'm really sorry because I know I wasn't the one in your church. I can't apologize for Christians, but I just want to let you, I'm

sorry to hear that that's been your experience in the church because I can assure you that's not how Christ would have treated you. And I know that because I've seen in scripture how he treated those who really wrestled with what he had to say. From that experience, but then getting into all the other questions, so much of it come from pain. Almost every single question, it's not this theological, like, oh, I really don't like it. It's, why is God so unjust? Why is it, it seems so unfair that he would have this type of ethic when it comes to sexuality, when my experience is this. Does God even love me? Because I've been told the amount of, oh my goodness, the amount of Christians, and I know you know this as well told the amount of, oh my goodness, the amount of Christians. And I know, you know, this is about the amount of, um, people walked away from the church

who were told ultimately that they themselves are an abomination. They themselves are a mistake in it. There's no way God like could love them. Was this guy gay? I burn it. No, this person, uh, he was in a, uh, polyamorous relationship though. Um, so it was interesting. Yeah.

We were talking in that sense, but no, he was on, but he, and that's the thing. A lot of people, I think a lot of Christians think, Oh, it's, this is where we've done wrong.

It's just specifically within that realm. Like, no, no, no, it's actually, there's so many people walking around with pain and shame, just heterosexuals as well,

based off of what they were told, um, how to live the center of, cause it, it is one of those areas. Like we have grace for so many things in the church, but when it comes to sexual immorality, we are like, we get very judgmental. Part of that, I want to be, there's a reason why.

I don't think it's completely arbitrary or like we just want to overemphasize. I don't think it's that. Actually, I mean, Paul talks about this. Scripture comes down pretty hard. Exactly. He's like, you actually sin against your body. What are you talking about there? And I always say like, look, if marriage and sexuality ultimately have the ability to point us to the most beautiful thing God ever has done in creation, what is this all going to? Well,

then it has the potential to, that pendulum is going to swing and be extremely harmful to us. And this is where God's care and kindness comes in. It's like, this isn't God just like arbitrary, like follow my rules because I really want to see if you'll do it. It's like, no, no, I love you. And I've created these things very specifically for a very unique thing. And, and just like any good gift I give you, you use it outside of his context. Quite frankly, it's not going to go well for you. Right. And you may not see that for years. I mean, I don't like the harm argument. I actually, it drives me insane actually when people were like, no, no sin will always, it's like, no,

sometimes you don't see sin. I mean mean i was miserable the second you said i was addicted to pornography for 10 years never saw the harm didn't take it actually until about to get into marriage that i start seeing the harmful effects what it did and it was so frustrating me ah yeah because i could because if you go into all all sin is harmful when you don't see sin you won't think it's i mean when you don see sin, you won't think it's, I mean, when you don't see harm, you don't think it's sin. You're willing to justify all these things. So. When you don't see harm, you don't think it's sin. That's great. Yeah. And that is like, you asked me like, you know, what are some of the questions like, and we were talking about this yesterday, like I was sitting there with a group of teenagers

asking them, like, I could tell they did not like what I was saying. I could tell they did not agree with me on like, what does the Bible actually say about these things? And I just said, fine, you know what? Scrap what I said. What, what should God believe? Like, honestly, if you're, if you were God, if you were creating this whole thing, what do you think God should say about sexuality and marriage? I love that phrase. Cause it's like, that's exactly what people are thinking and feeling. But when you say it out loud, it just sounds a little audacious. No, I know. What do you think God should believe? Yeah, it's like, and they're kind of taken back, but they essentially came up with three points.

And I really respect the points that they came out with because I loved how they are. They said, if I like something, it doesn't hurt anybody and it feels innate, then God should be okay with it. God should not, it feels, it's natural to me. I'm not like, I can't possibly change. It's just like a desire of mine, essentially, like a good, like innate desire of mine. And if it's innate, God put it there is kind of the, did they say that? Or is that kind of what they're? That's how they'd be wording it. And it was so funny when they first, when they first told me that I sat there for a while and I was trying to show them with like just worldview, why that's an inconsistent thing. And, but the only way I could actually get them to see it was like, I had to go to extremes and I actually don't like doing that. I think that's Christians do this all the time. We quickly will go to like the worst version. I was like, that's

not, it works occasionally, but it looks like you have no idea what you're talking about when the only thing you can go to is like the worst version of everything. It's like, that's not what I'm trying to do. So it took me a couple of weeks to just sit there and I was just praying and asking the Lord, I'm like, how do I answer that question? Why? And one, at first it made me realize, oh, this is actually, we need to start peeling back. What's our definition of sin? Because if your, if your definition of sin is harm or doing, doing bad things that harm others or yourself, then yeah, actually this one doesn't make too much sense. But if your definition of sin is actually an assault on God, it's God, I want to be God and you, I don't want you to be God.

It's actually an assault on God. It's, God, I want to be God, and I don't want you to be God. Well, that changes things fundamentally. But I also remember, like, when I looked, I was just going through Genesis again. I'm like, Lord, just kind of show me, how do I tackle this? And seeing, going back to the garden and seeing the original sin and how that went down, I found it really fascinating. And I did not, it's not like I fabricated the story to make it work, but it's like, there were three things that Eve saw about the tree, that it was good for food, that it was a delight to the eyes and it was desired to make one wise. And so it's no harm. I like it. And it's a desire. And it was like, it's the same thing that's happening here. It's

just, it's just packaged differently. It's like, but essentially what is the heart? God, you're withholding something good for me and I can't trust you. In fact, I need to do something to, I need to show that I'm actually better at being God than you in my life. And that's what I see happening right now. And here's the thing. Nothing about the tree was described as bad looking. In fact, it looked good. Like, like I think we, we kind of present like, no, no sexual immorality. Like you'll look at it like this is no, sometimes it's actually really appealing. Like if there really is an enemy of our souls, if there is someone that was adamantly trying to get us to not know and love God, he's going to find some creative ways for us to just find unique ways to just be good. Cause what is the heart of sin? God, I'm God, you're not. And so, yeah,

I think the questions range from a lot of things, but what I see is like it's pain, it's frustration, it's how I've been treated. And then there's an aspect of that fairness, and that's where I think this last question comes in. It's like, is God fair? Yeah. How would you answer that, is God fair? What does that even mean?

Yeah. Life just by definition. No, I mean, some people are like, is it fair that I'm a Christian and somebody born into a Muslim household in Saudi Arabia is not a Christian. I was born into a somewhat Christian home, you know, or I was born and I wasn't in a abusive situation. Some people were born, they didn't choose that environment and their whole, they were abused. Maybe they were born with an addiction or a family environment or born in the poverty and or layers and layers of poverty you know like in a whatever maybe they were born five foot two you know and and you know gained weight a lot easier

because of genetics you know there's so many you know some people are born with you know six foot four chiseled body they're good looking they. They have a great personality. All these things that are not something they chose. And that's going to have a – can have a really positive effect on their life. And I don't know. It's just the whole idea of like fairness. There's – or even I thought about – I was in a conversation with somebody the other day about like when it comes to like sexuality and consent. Like if it's consensual but i'm like what is consent like there's a female porn star who's being i don't i mean let's just say kind of

borderline borderline maybe abused by by men and i mean um from what i hear just keeps getting more and more violent more and more male-centered more and more almost like somebody said very i think it was bill maher that said it's like very rapey or you know like just um but she's not she's choosing to be in that maybe because she was down and out maybe she was abused maybe she needed the money or whatever so she's consenting to that role yeah but the power dynamics are horrific yeah and the byproduct of that consensual relationship, if we can even call it that, are horrific on women and children and trafficking. So there's so many things wrong with this consensual relationship. She's not intending harm, but there could be an unintentional harm that comes about from it so i even i just even the ethics of consent and harm i think are really thin and

naive when most people kind of use that as kind of the grid the oh if it's consensual and doesn't harm then it's fine it's like let's let's linger there for a little bit i've wandered all around there no no but no i i completely agree with you on that one i think that is one of the cheapest arguments people can try and use the consent yeah because it's just like you talk to people about what were they really wanting this is why i mean we get back to the justice part of this. You want to know why this is such a hard question for us? Because we actually believe this is the, this is the epitome of life. This is the thing that brings value to my life. And for me not to actually be able to live this out, it's repressive and it's subhuman. And the reason to your point, why we

don't shake our fists at God and say, I'm never going to be a Christian, you know, because it's, it is extremely unfair that I was born in one of the most wealthy countries in the most wealthy time of all history. Yet there are people just thousands of miles away that will never see or have access to the same wealth that I will have in my life. Some people would shake their fist at, but that's, that's not the question right now. Why? Well, it's because we all realize that does money help? Sure. But is it the meaning of life? No. Yeah. But you know, what is the meaning of life? Sexual expression and me, me getting to fully express. So this one is different in my, in my, this is where I want to challenge people. It's like, okay, so if that's true, how do you know if it is? Because my challenge to so many young

people is like, um, it is insanity. Truly the definition of insanity to think more of what you already have will bring you happiness. You're currently sleeping around. You are currently living out your sexuality to the extent that you want to. Did it work? Are you, yeah. No, I've not had a single person. Really? Not one.

I ask that question all the time. I always wonder that. In my mind, I think, okay, the sexual, complete sexual freedom, does that bring you to fulfillment? no true i've not heard a single part and if they're honest with you now and i also give this caveat i was like i'm not talking about is it fun i'm not talking about do you enjoy it in the moment i was like i'd be an idiot to not say like of course that's why that's why we're we're engaging in this we enjoy these things i'm asking you did it do the thing people promised you it would do like brought meaning in

life yes are you done are you done questioning the meaning of it are you done questioning that inner and i say i describe as that inner angst of your soul. Like, are you fulfilled in that sense? I've not met a single person. So that's, then my challenge is like, okay, so then why are you so convinced that if God has something to say about this one, that you're willing to fold the entire faith? Because I think you've actually been pitched something that's a lie. What did they say? That's compelling, I think. Do they? It depends. Yeah. I think it depends on who, I think. Why do they, do they, do they really think that? It depends, yeah. I think it depends on who it is.

Some people are just like, yeah, but this is who I am. Like, this is more of who I am than, and I would say, it's like, yeah, I don't blame you for that. Everything around you has said that from the day one. I mean, I once was flying home from London and I needed to, I was flying back to atlanta from london and i just in i wanted to stay up because i knew i right when i get to atlanta i wanted to go to bed and i didn't want to take it so i was just watching movies i watched three or four movies i can't remember four or three but every scene it was one was a comedy one was um action and one was an animated

film i was getting all the varieties in there. There was one core theme that every single one of them showed me. And this is as a single, it was like, you're no one until you have someone. Like that's just, it's everywhere. Someone meaning a romantic.

Yes, a romantic relationship. Not a good friend. Yeah, exactly. So it is not, I don't, I'm not telling everybody, it's like you're an idiot for believing. It's like, no, no,

it is one of the most compelling narratives. And again, as a Christian, what do we believe? No, no, we believe this, this unique thing, this thing called sex that God's designed ultimately for marriage between one man and woman, it has the potential of mirroring the exact relationship God wants with you. If you don't think that's going to somehow at all alter, like, I mean, there is something we crave there. Like there is something that like we, we want. And so like, that makes sense to me that it would be something that we're craving. The question is, would it be unfair for God to say, yeah, but for some, no. Only, my answer is this, only if this is the life we, this is the only life we have, and this is the thing I need to be fulfilled.

But this is where I don't think enough Christians see it. One, we don't believe this is the thing I need to be fulfilled. But this is where I don't think enough Christians see it. One, we don't believe this is the only life we have. And two, it's actually blatantly obvious in scripture that this is not something you need to be fulfilled. Because the moment we say that sexuality and romantic relationship and marriage is essential for you to live a fulfilled life is the moment we say that Christ lived a subhuman life. Because he didn't do it.

And then you see what Paul has to say about it. It's like, it's just this, like, again, it's an overappreciation of a good gift. Like I say, I just got married about yesterday. What's today? Yesterday was four months. I love my wife. I think she is the most lovely person I've ever met in my life. And I'm so undeserving of who she is as a person, honestly. She doesn't even compare to Christ. And I mean that. I say that with, and I know she'd say the exact same thing. My relationship with her, it can only point me more to him. In fact, when it doesn't, it's because I'm actually idolizing something. Like marriage is supposed to point you to the one relationship that actually would satisfy you, not satisfy you in itself. And so, and then that last point, man, the fact that there is no, this is another thing I've never actually heard a pastor preach on when it gets me so frustrated.

Matthew 22, right? There is no marriage. No marriage in heaven. Yeah, there's no marriage in heaven. What does that mean? Like, what does that mean for us right now? And the way I try to describe to people, like, especially it's like, I say it's a very similar to why we don't do animal sacrifices. Like, well, what do you mean?

It's like, well, what were we doing with animal sacrifice in the Old Testament? Did they ever really atone for sin? No, they didn't. We see in Hebrews, actually, they were pointing to the one sacrifice that would atone for sin. So once the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the world, once that happened, they're obsolete. We don't do it anymore. Why? Because they were pointing to the one thing that would do it. Why in the end is there no more marriage? Because the entire point of marriage is to point to the one that will. You can almost say there's no marriage.

There's no shadow of a marriage in the resurrection, right? Yeah. As much as human marriages point to the ultimate grand, most fulfilling marriage of us being one in Christ fully, then the shadow doesn't need to be there anymore. We're in the real thing. And the fact that that like freaks people out, like, oh, that sounds like a bummer.

I'm just married to God. That kind of shows that maybe we've elevated the shadow above. And I think the way, you know, it's funny. I was always taught, oh yeah, like there's the metaphor of Christ and his bride. Oh yeah. And for marriage, it's like, no, no, it's actually the opposite. We are the metaphors.

We're the thing that doesn't exist in it. Our marriages that we have right now, as good as they can be, as good as God's designed them to be, are a shadow. They are the thing pointing to the real thing. And more Christians need to say it because we'll never give a compelling answer to this world

when we try to say that, no, no, it's not that big of a deal if you never get this. Yet everything about my life is shaped by this. It does seem unfair. It does seem ridiculous. And I don't blame people that don't want to have anything to do with it because they've never been told, by the way, hey, this won't do the thing you think it will.

This is a beautiful thing, but it's difficult. But the satisfaction that God himself can bring you, that like, man, I love that Christ describes himself as the bread of life. Like, what does he mean? Like, and, I love that Christ describes himself as the bread of life. Yeah. Like, what does he mean? Like, and I've tasted that. I mean it. And like, I'm so grateful for it because I think I went into marriage and I know trials are going to come.

I'm not saying I'm doing this perfectly at all. I just went into marriage knowing she's not, she can't do what he can do. She can't fully. She'll never touch. She'll never touch that part. Can she show, can she point me back to it? 100%. Can I try and point her back to him?

Absolutely. And that's the beauty of marriage because now we get to hold this so lightly of saying, yeah, no, what a cool gift I get right now, but I never needed actually. Did I want it? Sure. And if we would, gosh, and this is the shortest part of our lives. This is like, and I don't, we as Christians don't even think about, we think of even our theology of the resurrection. We think of heaven and we do, we talk about heaven actually is just like, yeah. And this is like, no, we, we have a bodily resurrection. Like we're the only worldview that touches that. Like you get a new body and there's a new earth. Like this is the shortest part of your life. And yet there's so much more that he's going to offer. And yet he's asking, will you just, will you obey me in this? Because I actually have something far better for you.

And everyone, everyone has access to that, regardless of orientation, regardless of gender. The answer to all of us is, will you repent of your sin, deny yourself, and take up your cross? I'm curious, just to kind of broaden it out a little bit like just on that last note this idea of really living with the hope of resurrection not hope like i wish it to come but like the hope of the confident reliance upon this future reality that is 100 gonna happen you know i feel like has and this is kind of a blend of a technology question and a Gen Z question. I wonder, this is a true question, I just thought of this question right now. Is that belief, living in light of the confident trust of resurrection,

has that become extra hard to do in the last 10, 20 years when everything's so fast paced and social media has exacerbated things and something that was a huge cause a week ago is no longer and everybody's, there's so much, I feel like, and I could be wrong, but it just seems like more than ever, there's such a strong pull to just look at what's right in front of you and not even think about, like the whole i love eugene peterson's phrase you know long obedience in the same direction the thought of like doing something for 20 years 30 years or like i'm going to build into something that's not i'm not going to see the fruit of this

for a decade or something like that's just so bizarre to the way we're thinking now um have you here's my question if i'm kind of onto something maybe have you seen that like it's much harder to get kind of younger people especially that this is the only world they've known to truly live in light of something that's so far out it seems that it's almost untouchable yeah and how do we get that back yeah you know i definitely think like the time we live in for sure plays a role in that i mean gosh even my attention span i feel like has changed oh we all last 10 years like it's crazy um i don't i think there's a deeper route to that though um i don't think it's simply all our attention spans are shorter i think it's actually when your life is actually really good and you don't have the trial and you don't have to figure that like this can be a very

like you can really pretend like this is this is the only life i have like and i fight every day to remember like i just want to push for comfort i just want to push for ease i just want to enjoy and i actually live my life sometimes like this is the most important thing like god forbid i have to sacrifice anything but when i you know i used to belong with a group of people i mean a team of speakers all across the world. When I would talk to my colleagues from different cultures in different countries, some of which who were, I mean, every day being persecuted.

Their churches were being bombed every Sunday. They had to put up cement walls so that car bombs, and they still had church every day. Like, what are you doing? Like, why would you keep, like, sometimes I struggle to want to go to church on Sundays because it's like, ah, I just don't feel like today. It's kind of cold out. You know what I'm saying?

It's cold out. I'm going to get wet between trying to wear my car. You know, what is going on there? It's like when your love of God and your love of knowing that this life is not – this is the vanishing vapor. I mean, it changes the way you actually live your lives. And I just think because we're so comfortable and I think we're so, and I, I, that's convicting for me to say, cause I push for comfort. We're in a, I mean, especially in the West, we're in very wealthy

societies. Even the poorest of us in the West are still doing significantly, have more wealth access than a lot of people, a lot of cultures in the world. And this is the illusion. I mean, I even think when Christ talks about finances, like he's not doing it because he thinks it's the only thing where he's like, watch out, like be careful. Everything else is like, get out of it. Don't like, this is not good for you. Finances like money, get out, watch out because it will creep up on you and it will convince you of a life that is just not true. It's an illusion. And I think it's just one more area we just have to become, because I do think that comfort

and convenience comes in the beauty of like, I'm not dogging wealth and like blessing and prosperity. It's just like, but we gotta be careful because it is, it's a, one of those weird misleading, like it will convince you to live this life well and enjoy it and not to sacrifice anything, not to. Yeah. So, I think that actually plays a huge role is to just the comfort and the ease that we have in life, because you can actually delude yourself into thinking that this is what it's all about. Yeah.

But when, man, when you're every day being persecuted and you're questioning, you don't know if it's the next day, man, that the idea of eternity is so real. It's at the, I mean, you are thinking of like, and I mean, I think of Christ, I mean, Paul in Philippians, I mean, how did he possibly say to live is Christ and to die is gain? What did, I mean, how? Well, because look at him. Look at what he was going through. This dude knew and loved Christ and was getting destroyed for it in so many ways. And he's just like, look, I would love to stay here because I want to keep preaching.

But oh my gosh, I cannot wait to the day to be in heaven and with him. Do you think like, yeah, and going back to the wealth thing, like has all this excessive comfort and wealth in America, has it produced true human flourishing? Why are we among the leaders in anxiety and depression and loneliness and suicidality and all these? I think that's true, at least. Yeah.

Or, yeah, I think evidentially it shows itself to be true what you're saying. Yeah. That simply pursuing wealth, simply pursuing comfort and all these things does not actually, you know, I think God warns us from it, partly because it doesn't resonate with how he's wired creation. But also, he's like, this isn't going to make gonna make you happy this isn't gonna lead to your flourishing um i want so with gen z because most of your work has been with talking to not just just what 25 and under ish yeah i'd say most of it okay yeah most of it would be 25 and i mean i've talked to a lot

of adults as well but i would say probably 60 okay so besides sexuality what are some of the main questions they're they're wrestling with and maybe questions that is unique to that demographic that maybe older people aren't or maybe i guess it doesn't need to be unique but yeah what are some of the main the main reasons why they don't want to be all in and follow jesus you know like what are the saints the roadblocks is it a problem of people like i just doesn't seem like that's a just god is it they don't want to be all in and follow Jesus. You know, like what are the roadblocks? Is it a problem of evil? Like, it just doesn't seem like that's a just God. Is it they don't have any theology of suffering and Christianity is all about theology of suffering?

Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. Well, it definitely is. Like, it doesn't matter what I'm speaking on. The first question will always be sexuality. That's like, oh, 100%. It is just, they're not even going to enter. Has it always been?

You've been doing this for eight years. Yeah. Is it increased? Yes. Or has it always been? I would say yes. I mean, obviously, that's anecdotally. This is my life.

I don't know. I don't want to speak on the whole there. But yes, I would say it's increased significantly because, yeah, I think this generation has a huge heart for justice. And I actually think it's something we should applaud as Christians because we, as Christians, should also want justice. And we should be those promoting it and seeking it. Where I see the frustrations of a lot of Gen Z specifically is they'll be growing up in Christian households. And so they'll take the beginning part of their worldview will start with Christian. I believe there's a God who created me. I believe he's loving. And I believe he created me through the purpose. Then you jump

to the end of their worldview. And second, i believe that there is an afterlife of sorts i don't think this is the only thing i don't think i'm a materialist but then the questions of like morality and meaning come from completely the world around them it doesn't come from christianity and when you try to blend those two things together you get really frustrated because they don't go together um you can't get meaning and morality from a secular culture that believes nothing about this life is actually, there's no divine, there's no, and yet you want to know, like, you can't, you can't get a lasting meaning on that one. Because ultimately, if we started with as an accident and we end in oblivion, the idea that you can try to argue with me that

meaning has, there is a real meaning is like, that can't be true. There's meaningless here is meaningless there. The in-between is also meaningless. Now I get to create my meaning on that, but everyone that knows what it feels like to create your own meaning, it's, it's a, it's a goalpost that's constantly changing. It's actually really frustrating to live a life like that. And so I see a lot of teens really getting so frustrated with like, I want to, I want to believe in this God of love. I want to believe, but like, but it doesn't, I don't see the way I'm learning what love is doesn't line up with what I think love should be. And yet, so what I mean by that is like, you're, you're taking a definition of what you're starting with Christianity. You're getting a secular definition

of what love is. And then you're getting frustrated that God isn't loving the way he describes himself within scripture. And that is like, now you can be like, you see that pattern, whether they were, they probably would articulate like that, but that way, that way of thinking, yes, absolutely. It is like, let me borrow as much, like, I'm just going to make sense of this word. And I'm like, and I told him, I was like, look, you can do that, but that's a very inconsistent worldview. And you want to know why that matters is because eventually it will crumble and you probably don't think it will and you can build a house on sand or concrete right you'll only know when the storm comes and unfortunately i think so many of us have just lived such privileged comfortable lives that we've not

even had a storm we don't even know what it's like for our worldview to be just ripped from us and so those that are holding to a very inconsistent worldview i told them like look in america you can actually get away with it in the, you can get away with it for a good amount of time. I mean, you live in a culture that actually does in some ways uphold an aspect of morality. It's like it's easy to actually live an inconsistent worldview. But when push comes to shove, you're going to really figure out what you believe. And sometimes it takes that pain. Sometimes it takes the suffering to be like, oh, my gosh, why do I believe what I believe here?

And that inconsistency there. And I tell them, do it all you want, but you can't get mad at Christianity for this when you're the one that's inaccurately trying to apply what it's saying. At least go after Christianity and get frustrated for what it actually says in its entirety and its completeness. Don't try to cherry pick and cheap, like cheapen the world. See of it, see of it, see it in all of its complexity, all of its nuance, and then make a decision.

Don't try to just cheapen it because it's like, I mean, sorry, we talked about this, I think last night too. One of my biggest like challenges is somebody that's really wrestling with their faith. If they are Christian,

they're about to abandon. It's like, look, when you say no to something, you're saying yes to something else. Make sure you know what you're saying yes to. Because I think a lot of people don't think that. It's like, no, no, when I say no to Christianity, I'm just done with that. But you're saying yes to a secular worldview at that point. What does the secular worldview offer you at this? What does it mean to be human? Why does my life

have any value? Why should I care about justice? Like, when did it become evolutionarily advantageous for me to be benevolent? Like, why do all these things? I think you're not going to find a more consistent and more compelling and more loving worldview than Christianity. I'm so, I've looked at this long enough to be like, yeah, I've wrestled with this. But that idea of like, because I do think if it's not sexuality, it's justice. It's this heart of like, man, I want,

you will not find a more compelling story of justice and love than the cross. And I want people to see that. And it's just like, but it takes time. I mean, you know, you're a scholar and you know how complex scripture is. You know,

this is not something that you're saying, Oh yeah, it's like, I kind of, it's like, no, it's tough. But with the humility, if we, if we go at it with humility and we just are willing to say, okay, Lord, what, what is going on here? And you look at, again, the whole thing. It's like, if somebody took, you know, one year of my life and tried to describe me as a person, that's a very inaccurate view of who I am as a person. Get the whole thing.

Read it as one big narrative, because that's essentially what it's doing. It's not a bunch of stories. It is one narrative. It is one story, great story of God redeeming his people and wanting to reconcile relationships with those he created. I just thought of this right now. Do you think a lot of people, when it comes to like, when you say, if they say no to Christianity, what are you saying yes to? They need not, like you said, they haven't really thought through that. Even if they did get that far, they typically wouldn't say, okay, which other coherent worldview am I going to embrace? I think typically it's kind of a worldview of desire. Like why is justice a part of my worldview? Well, when I see injustice, I get

fired up. Right. I'm passionate about that. Um, why does the Christian sexual ethic not make sense? Why don't, it doesn't resonate with my desires. So do you feel like they'd end up almost intuitively forming a worldview that matches what they are desiring in the moment, you know, going back to like, as long as my desires aren't harming anybody. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's a really good point. And I would say, yeah, I think it is. I guess Jamie Smith is, I'm kind of repeating what Smith would say about you are what you love, you know? Yeah. And it's, it's, and again, gosh, it's so compelling. It is like,

I feel it's like, I want it. I want to kind of live it. But, and this is where I think Christianity just gets, again, just so profoundly beautiful. And the fact that it describes you're not you and my heart way, that we actually just want to be in charge. That's the—scrap what you think sin is, all these bad things. It's like sin is you genuinely want to be in charge. I want to be God. Going back to the garden you were saying.

Yeah, it's like I want to be God. And that is every time we choose sin, it is me. It's just saying, God, I just think I'm a little smarter than you. I think I could—and we'd never say it, but that's what we're doing. But this idea that we're creating a worldview out of desire, it's like, okay, so there's, okay, that's fine. What happens when you and another person have two conflicting desires? Who wins out here? And what worldview actually allows you to love that individual and not mistreat them? Now I get it. Some people have used Christianity as a club and actually mistreated.

But I'm saying you can't judge a philosophy based on its abuse. You actually have to go off of what it's saying. And give me another worldview that tells you not to retaliate in a world of anger and frustration. Give me a worldview that says actually love your enemies and pray for them. love your enemies and pray for them. Give me another worldview that actually says this isn't, you can actually rest and let God have the vengeance and have the justice because He's trustworthy and He's good. And there's an eternity at stake. Like that to me is like, it's like saying no for such a cheap reason. And it doesn't seem cheap at the time. I'm not trying to oversimplify it because it does seem so real for someone. Like, especially if it's, if it is

just, if it's just the pain in your life, no i can't do this anymore but you're saying no without really saying realizing what you're saying no to is what i say and i don't say that as like because i figured out it's like no i wrestle with this i still have so many questions but the cumulative data the cumulative view i'm like ah there's nothing better than this one and it's so true when you talk like this on again going back to like a secular campus maybe at the beginning you're talked or skeptics there's agnostics atheists or maybe christians that are kind of jaded deconstructing if you talk like this do you see at least some people kind of like oh wow like rethinking a lot of things they came in with or yeah oh for sure are you successful what you do yeah exactly did people become christians yeah not to leave the holy spirit out of it but

no um yeah um but again i i believe the role god's given me is to keep getting people closer right just keep taking remove obstacles and yeah i think helping them see christianity more clearly yeah and because only look only the holy spirit can get someone to fall in love with Christ. I can't do that. I just can't. It's not possible. There is a miraculous thing that happens for anybody that repents of their sin and declares Christ their Lord. That is a profound thing that happens.

But I think he does desire to use us. I think he desires for us to play a role in that. And what exactly that role is, it's a hard thing to pinpoint. But yes, I have absolutely seen and i've also seen the other i've seen people just like no i still i'm not i'm not content with that but sometimes it's like there's a difference between being a skeptic and a cynic a skeptic will actually entertain answers that they haven't thought of us a cynic it doesn't matter what you say um i'm not going to change my point of view at that point you point, you can't, there's nothing I can do on

that. There has to be a heart transformation. You have to have some aspect of you. And I always tell people like, what's the falsifiable claim in your worldview? Like how do you know if it's true or not? Like ours, I would say is the resurrection. I mean, everything hinges on that, truly. Because if Christ didn't do that, this is, I mean, Paul even says, we are, we of all people should be pitied because we are fools if this isn't. Okay. So then what is it, what does it look like to know if this is true? Well, let's look at the historicity of the resurrection. What does it look like? Obviously we can't go back 2000 years, but if you come with the framework of saying the resurrection, like miracles can't

happen and the resurrection can't happen because the miracles can't happen. I mean, that's just circular reasoning. You're not arguing anything. You're just, before you even go into it, you can't happen and the resurrection can't happen because the miracles can't happen. I mean, that's just circular reasoning. You're not arguing anything. You're just, before you even go into it, you can't be convinced of it. So it's like, if this is possible, what would have happened? What does the evidence look like? And that's why it's like, yeah, there's, so it's, it's so many things like that. I tell people all the time, like I'm a Christian today, not because of one argument, it's all of it. It is the answer of suffering. It is the answer of creation. It is the answer of the resurrection. It is this personal relationship with that. It's all of those things. And that's why I think Christianity can be so fascinating because

it's simple enough for a child to understand. And yet the most brilliant minds that have ever existed have never gotten to the bottom of it. There's something so intricately divine about Christianity to me that I've actually heard people say like, look, if Christianity wasn't true, I'd want to know who wrote scripture because I'd struggle not to worship them. Because when you do, like when you're actually willing to sit under script, you see the beauty of all these things working together. Like this is so not man-made and this idea of grace, that to me is like, this was not a man-made religion. I'm sorry.

Because you can't weaponize grace. You can't. There's nothing to gain from it, actually, if you were to create a religion and what you want to use it. Grace is just unmerited. And a God that would be willing to do that. And then, yes. I'm sorry. I'm getting on tangents now.

No, it's good. Yes, I have seen people change with it. But I have also seen people be like, no, I'm not interested. Even a cynic, I would imagine there's a personal story that leads to cynicism. Probably, like you said earlier, a lot of pain, right? I mean, that doesn't just come out of nowhere, right? I mean... Well, I mean, maybe the last story here, like I was just at my church a few weeks ago or a few months ago, and my pastor was like, hey, this person just came in. They want to talk about quantum physics. Like, you know, I was like, geez, okay.

I was like, well, I know, whatever. I can dabble in this. I mean, I studied molecular biology in undergrad, but I'm a little rusty on all these things. But I was like, well, let's talk about what do you want to talk about? And he came over to my house, and we're just sitting there by a fire. I was like, all right, come on, fire these questions. We kept talking, we kept talking, we kept talking for hours. And I was like answering his questions to some level of competency. I wasn't, I definitely didn't know where he was a physics major and stuff, but I was just showing

him like, well, I think Christianity and science are actually extremely compatible. You've just been taught that they have to be and that they're not. But it was so funny. He kept asking, answering, answering, answering. And then finally he's about to walk out of my house and he just says, you know, can I actually ask you one more question? I said, sure. And I was like, and I knew this, I've done this enough to be like, well, he never actually got to what his question was. We never really got to where, and he just said, can I say like, I actually, my biggest hurdle with becoming a Christian is because I don't like what the Bible has to say about sexuality. Can you talk about that? Literally, I came back to that. And then here's a cool thing. We got to talk and I don't like what the Bible has to say about sexuality. Can you talk about that? It came back to that. It came back to that.

And then here's a cool thing. We got to talk, and I told him essentially what we were talking about today, and it was so sweet because the Lord was just pursuing him that weekend, and I didn't do it. After he talked to me, he talked to somebody else, and then I saw him on Sunday the next week, and he said, dude, after I talked to you and everything, I just felt like the Lord just told me to repent of my sin and follow him.

And again, I didn't lead him in a prayer. I don't take any credit for it. But what I would say is like the Lord used me to start removing obstacles. And I think we get to play. Reduce the white noise that he thought was preventing him. But really when you bring that down, then you can kind of see clearly

what are the main obstacles. Yep, what are the main obstacles. So yeah. Luke, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw, man. Thanks for having me. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.