Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1023: #1023 - Toward an Ecclesiology of Podcasting: Mike Erre

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Mike began vocational ministry in 1999 as a student ministries and college pastor at Mariners Church in Irvine, Calif and currently serves a teaching pastor at Journey Church in Nashville, TN. Mike also taught at Rock Harbor (Costa Mesa, Calif.) and Mariners’ Mission Viejo, Calif. campus. He served as the senior Pastor at EV Free Fullerton and founded the VOX Community and podcast (now Voxology). Mike has published five books: The Jesus of Suburbia (2006), Why Guys Need God (2008), Death By Church (2009), Why the Bible Matters (2010), and Astonished ( 2014). He holds a bachelor of science degree from Miami University and a master of arts in philosophy of religion and ethics from the Talbot School of Theology. Mike is the only person I’ve ever met who started a church that grew out of his podcast, and he currently is an avid podcaster and a pastor. So, he is the perfect dialogue partner to talk about a question I’ve been thinking through: what is a healthy ecclesiology of podcasting? If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information! 

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in a Raw. My guest today is Mike Erie. Mike has been a pastor of several different, very large churches in Southern California, and then he took a hiatus from ministry for a little bit, and now he's back in ministry as a teaching pastor at Journey Church outside of Nashville, Tennessee. He's also the host of a podcast that's very similar to Theology in a Raw. It's called Voxology. It was formerly called the Vox Podcast. If you have not listened to Mike Gehry's podcast, I think you would really enjoy it if you enjoy this one at all. Mike is just a brother from another mother. I don't think we've ever hung out in person, but we've known each other for years online. He's endorsed some of my books. I've had him on the podcast before. We chit chat back and forth, not as much as I

would like, but periodically. He's just a great, great, honest dude, curious dude, and I'm excited for you to listen to him. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Mike Erie. Dude, you're one of those guests that I want to have on like every other week. I don't. It's been a while since you've been on, and that I want to have on like every other week. I don't. It's been a while since you've been on and that's so unfortunate. It's totally on me. I'm sorry.

Listen, it's when two guys who are similarly good looking and similarly intelligent. I mean, I get that there's a bit of a like the opposite of magnetism. I get that. I get that. And so I understand that I like the opposite of magnetism. I get that. I get that. And so I understand that I'm threatening in some ways and it's okay. I'm totally fine with that. We don't have a YouTube channel and now you're seeing the reason why. So last time we talked, you were in exile back in Ohio.

Well, I just read a front. You're down in Nashville now past pastoring or part of a – I forget your role. You're a teaching pastor? How did that come about? Teaching pastor. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. So like a lot of us, I had done the megachurch thing and had done it according to the values and systems, you know,

that were kind of handed down and realized I was just not a very good one. I ended up planning a church, but I had some health challenges and my mom had some health challenges. And so moved to Ohio and we were there for four years. And I just thought, okay, well, I'll just do podcasting and that's it. But I really began – not shocking to anybody, but I really began to miss having a flesh and blood community where some of the stuff we were talking about on the podcast could be worked out. So we weren't just critiquing things because that's easy. But we were working to create something that felt a bit different. And so I began with a close circle of people to just ask God, God, would you allow me to serve in the church again? I don't want to be a lead pastor. I'm not gifted and I'm not interested in the maintenance of the organization.

Yeah. But man, to work out the text in a flesh and blood community, that was super compelling. And then two weeks later, I got a call from a friend who I'd worked with at a church in California. And he said, Hey, we, we, we're, you know, 300, 400 400 person church and we're looking for a teaching pastor and would you be interested? And it was like a no brainer. So it's been awesome.

So to have a podcast on the one hand, where you can experiment and learn and be curious, but then to have a flesh and blood community that you're talking to every week, that dynamic, that dual dynamic for me has been the healthiest dynamic I've been in a long time. I've got a question that I've had on my mind for a while, and I think you might be the right person to ask. I'm going to ask real quick, but I want to table it because I have more questions about

your church. What is the ecclesiological role of a podcast? This thing is so new, ecclesiological role of a podcast. This thing is so new. It has become incredibly influential, disruptive, and yet it seems to just be driving in a completely parallel lane as a typical rhythm of ecclesiology. You seemed... What the heck? Let's just dive in right now. Because you started a church. I've never heard of this before. Back in California, right? They grew out of the podcast. It was the podcast community that was local. And you started a church. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? And would you recommend that? Is that something that we should be doing more of? Oh, you know, so that's such a good question, Preston. Oh, my goodness. And I've wrestled with that so much. And I've actually talked to some really – oh, yeah. I've never heard anybody frame it that way. Like what is the relationship between the podcast world, Christian podcast world doing Christian things or whatever and the local church?

The fact that you even asked that question, it shows how impoverished I think the American imagination is about church, that we don't – that that is fertile ground for more conversation. And I thought in my arrogance that I could just kind of teach my way into some things without having to do the really hard shepherding work of loving people over the course of decades into the future. And so there was a lot on me that was immature and impatient. There were some things and some dynamics in the church that were super painful that were being expressed to my wife and I. And so I resigned pretty abruptly. And looking back on it, I was wrong to do so. I was wrong in the way that I handled it, for sure. I was not doing what was best for the church. I was doing what I thought was best for me. And I know there's a fine line in there, but I should have been more patient and I mean, all the things. But I found myself just one day without pastoring and I thought, okay, I think I'm done with

this. You know, I've tried it and I don't know that I'm very good at it, but I'm, like you, good at taking content and kind of exploring it and reducing it down to accessible forms and whatever else. And so we started a podcast that wasn't going to be like a talk show format and it wasn't going to just be exclusively interviews. It was going to be some like original content. And it wasn't going to just be exclusively interviews. It was going to be some like original content. And we found there to be this kind of church refugees sort of audience for the content. The first podcast we did was why gay marriage is good for the church. The Oberfeld decision had just come down.

And I was just making the point, oh, well, we have to confront now all of the double standards about how we treat sexual sin. We have to talk about sexuality in ways that are far more compelling. We have to have good answers for why gay people are treated the way they've been treated. And that – I could never have had that conversation in an organized ecclesia. But there were so many people who were – I have a problem with that, but you're acknowledging just something that is. Me too. Me too. Yes, me too. Because I always thought the church should be the safest place to talk about anything, right? I mean, that seems like that should be the case. But the podcast

format opened up that opportunity without the attendant violations of ecclesial authority and permission and structure. And so we found this kind of broad audience of people who wanted to have those conversations, but just they weren't allowed to in traditional evangelical structures. So similar to you, right? We're able to explore things and have conversations with people that, you know, with whom we deeply disagree that allow us to, um, talk about cultural realities in ways that don't have to honor this massive institution and the financial basis behind it. Yeah. And so what was interesting is, um did a couple of meetups and realized, oh, my goodness, there's a church here. But a unique kind of church we organized around the Eucharist. We opened the service with the sermon and the sermon's point was to lead into the Eucharist. It wasn't some awe-inspiring, you know, killer sermon series, questions and answers. And we really emphasized table fellowship and all those things.

And we found that there was this beautiful pre-cultural work that had been done by the podcast that allowed for a pretty quick assimilation into a church culture that was unique and I'd never sort of seen happen before. So I think there is a place, but I think Christian podcasts are different. For some, it's just the sermon that we do. For others, it's interview and exploring different topics through different personalities. For others, it's kind of a talk show that is just fun and light and whatever. And I think there's a place for exploration of scripture and culture that does lend itself to follow up, whether it's sharing a meal or whether it's Q&A or further discussion or whatever. And so we even see that now. One of the biggest requests we get on our podcast is, well, how do I find like-minded listeners? And we've tried to organize

something called micro communities that COVID totally interrupted. But there was a lot of energy around people trying to find like-minded churches and people to kind of continue the conversations with. How did you manage? What does that look like? Did you have some kind of online platform for them to find other people? We were working on that. We were working on that. And there are some out there now. But we just got requests.

Hey, do you know of a good church in Arizona? Do you know of a good church? And so we'd throw that back to our audience. And our audience would say, I don't know of one in Arizona,, I'm here in Arizona and would love to hook up with somebody. And so anyway, there was this natural desire to sort of incarnate some of the, the relationship dynamics that we were embodying in the way we were doing the podcast that I think in some ways could do a lot of work towards building a unifying culture, um, with people that have no other reason to exist together.

So anyway, I do think there's a role there. Absolutely. Did you, so you, I mean, like if I, if I did that,

I would probably have like seven people at my church here and boy, like I don't have a big local following. I don't think. Um, but like your like your your listeners when you started it were were they largely local because probably because of your pastoral platform so a lot of okay totally so that wouldn't work for all podcasts no not at all but since we've since um so i've been out of California I think five years now. That impulse has not gone away, but it's more – vastly more spread out. So people in Texas or people in – we've had people in other countries like you, I mean, that are looking for some sort of connection through the podcast that they're not finding in a local church and that's good and bad yeah is that going to be is that going to replace the church like um right i got thoughts about that even some pros and cons to that well that's what it is it's a

total trade-off should we encourage that or should we not well it's hard because i'll get comments amazing like people saying you know you i i i finally can ask a hard question you talk about things that i'm thinking about but i've never heard talk about church um i you know i've had people say you know you've been my pastor for the last few years and all these things i'm like no no not like but then they tell me about their church situation or options and i'm like well, well, I'm a hundred percent not trying to replace the church, be the church, be somebody's pastor. Um, but it's, is it my fault that people are at places that they can't even ask a hard theological question and either get like either look down upon or get some can answer that it's like, yeah, I've got a thousand reasons why your

response doesn't really match scripture. You know, like do I cancel theology in Iran and throw it back on the church to do it? Or if they're not doing stuff, you know what I mean? Like I, I do. I absolutely, man. So here's the impulse that sits behind me. And this is the reason why I wanted to go back into a local church for me was, um, it's just too easy to critique and not create, right? We would both agree like that's deconstructing is the easiest thing in the world these days, building something that's, you know, not perfect, but a little different from the norm. It's a lot harder. And so for me to have, to have both arenas has been the healthiest – like I said, the healthiest I've been. So I do think there's a role that the podcast can and should never have in the lives of people.

But that the Eucharistic communal social dynamics of the New Testament invites us into. Good. I think that a podcast can set the table for a way of seeing the church that allows people to discern healthy from unhealthy, to engage with their normal, average, ordinary church in ways that are much healthier than the just traditional consumeristic. So like, you know, when people say, what do you look for in a church? I'm like, well, the last thing I would look for is teaching because you can get good teaching everywhere, right? You do not need to go to a church for some killer sermon series or whatever, but find a church that is growing together in love, that is manifesting the Sermon on the Mount, that cares about the things that Jesus cares about. And some of that could be teaching.

Great. But that's not the sole thing anymore. Right. Because we have access to so many other resources. That would be one example of where I think a podcast can help. Right. Yeah. It's easy to share.

It's not I'm not inviting you to church. I'm just like, hey, take a listen to this. I know we disagree on this issue, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Yeah, yeah. It's almost like what's the role of a therapist? You go to therapy when you're dealing with anxiety. You're dealing with all kinds of things that are really in the category of discipleship, but maybe the people at the leaders

at church, maybe not be as well equipped in that area. They're just not doing, you know, extensive, robust clinical therapy. Um, so in some ways, I mean, it's almost could, could podcasting depending on the podcast host, almost be akin to like theological therapy or triage. theological therapy or triage. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I look at I look at so Dallas Willard is a guy that we both would adore. And he wrote a book called The Divine Conspiracy in the 90s, one of my favorite books ever. And it was so influential and so shaping. What was the role of that book in my life? Right? Well, was it discipling? Oh my, yes, absolutely. But was I in touch with him at all? Not at all. So I would say, oh my goodness, God uses resources beyond the body to inspire

body kind of life? Of course. So I would say, if it's a healthy podcast, if it's cruciform and focusing on new creation dynamics, then hallelujah. I think that plays a part in discipleship the way a good book might. Oh, that's a great analogy. Yeah. I think because it is a book does feel way less personal. It's very two-dimensional and maybe a podcast is more than that. A little fuller yeah yeah i think that maybe that's why it does get a little bit closer to kind of a church dynamic but like you said it's it is ultimately disembodied and non-eucharistic i love that idea um and therefore i can't shouldn't replace the church yes what's your current church like

i mean again yeah you don't strike me as the type of person that would sit into kind of a traditional church model. I mean, what's the, what's it's journey journey. Yes. I have been so impressed by these humans and I know my goodness, I'm going to speak really positively about them. You're still on the honeymoon stage. positively about them. You're still on the honeymoon stage. Yeah, probably. I've been there almost two years. And it's funny, the leadership team is made up of people who've all worked in large churches and have swore they'd never work in churches again. And so, I mean, it's little things like we have a lead pastor who is unbelievably humble. He's gifted in a lot of different ways, but his biggest gift is just collaboration. So there are four of us that sort of sit on this leadership team and all the decisions are collaborative.

And I know that's an easy thing to say, but if you've sat with people who are dominant personalities, you know that collaboration is never really collaboration. It's like processing to get to whatever it is the pastor wants to do. Well, this isn't like that at all. We have four very gifted individuals who are very specifically gifted in very specific lanes. And so I've never been a part of a healthier team that operates and deals with conflict among themselves in healthy ways. The church is – I don't know. It's probably 300 or 400 people.

So it's at a size that allows it to not have to fight for survival but also isn't swamped by and consumed by all the growth dynamics that tell us what successful churches look like and act like. That might be my favorite size, two to 400, 500. Oh yeah. It's fantastic. We do two services. It's great. The culture is Eucharistic.

The culture is based around table fellowship, which means, you know, we perform our social status at the table of Jesus. And that social status is that we're all gift recipients. None of us have a right to be there. And none of us have a right to determine who else gets to come. We talk about race in the heart of the South, and that causes heartburn for folks. We are in the middle of a series on the Bible where we're talking like really meta conversations about the Scripture, and it results in 30 to 50 questions after every service.

We do Q&A after every sermon or talk? Yes. Okay. Yes. I love that. Yes, yes, yes. I love that. Oh, they can text in.

It is absolutely phenomenal. Goal of the service, of course, is the Eucharist. We've spent six months in the Sermon on the Mount, but there is a great deal of permission to explore the things that we're talking about right here because the church isn't invested in its own self-preservation. It's very invested in what does it look like in the South to follow Jesus in the midst of the cultural streams that are kind of swirling all around us and to create a place where like affirming and not affirming people can share the bread in the cup where, you know,

red state people and blue state people can share the bread in the cup where, you know, people that, you know, want to build a wall with people who are, you know, illegal immigrants can share the bread and the cup. And so we do, we spend a lot of time trying to be centered, focused, centered and focused. And so there's a culture that we've created or working to create. And that was being, you know, embodied before I ever showed up, that is so attractive to me. We don't do a lot of religious programming. Once a month, we offer something called The Table, which is an invitation of our church to share meals together. And that's kind of all we do.

And so for the rest, we try to provoke curiosity and conversation on the weekends, leading to the Lord's Supper. We embody the table as a way of life. And then that's kind of it. And it's been unbelievably refreshing to not be busy. Do you have a lot of kind of like maybe de-church type people there? Totally. Totally. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I'm new to this right because i pastored california the southern baptist convention is a big deal down

here like it is a big freaking deal so there there are dynamics yes there are dynamics around issues like baptism that you know in my non-denominational kind of church structures in California, we never had to, that was never a thing, but it's very much a thing here. Alcohol, a thing. There are these, these regional issues, race. I mean, very much. We have a Confederate statue in the center of our little town and there is a deep sense of mistrust. Um, or I mean, our church split over masks and mandates. Your church, they drowned out it or? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we lost hundreds of people because, uh, we were listening to the CDC recommendations and encourage masks. And then at one point we split. So one service was mask

required and other service wasn't. Oh, really? But we were, yeah. That's going to create two different churches right there. It did. And so we're sitting in the middle of this going, okay, so how do we be faithful Jesus people? And the only answer we know is to proclaim Jesus and center ourselves on him and the meal that he gave us. Because that's the only thing strong enough to hold all of that tension together, right? It's not going to be a great, compelling worship. It's got to be something bigger than all of that. And so it's just been

interesting because I think a lot of churches in our area sort of had to go through that thing. There's an energy in the South that's just different than some of the energies I've been at in other places of the country. Yeah, because you're a born Yankee, right? And then you go to California for a while. And so this is a different culture for you, right? I mean, are the stereotypes of Bible Belt and stuff, are they pretty true? But I mean, Nashville's a little bit like kind of how Austin is to Texas, right? Like it's a little. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Nashville, Nashville's really interesting. Like almost all the people on, in our neighborhood are transplants.

So there aren't, there's such an influx of people moving to Tennessee. Some, some, because it's a very red state and particularly from california we have several sets of friends who are thinking about moving to where we live which is in franklin and some because it's a red state some because it's small town and country and not not super south but a little still cosmopolitan nashville you know has some great universities and obviously the music scene is you know ridiculous um but but it's been interesting to see the influx of people and that and the influx has allowed us to take some steps away from some of the cultural conventions because not everyone's immersed in them right right right yeah no totally that that's i mean i've i've been there

several times and that's it doesn't feel as stereotypical deep south bible belt you know as as other places but i mean but i've heard people say no it's still it's still bible belt like you get you know oh yeah people kind of judge you if you don't go to church or something on sunday like if you're walking around town, I maybe not that much, but like, you know, walking around Sunday morning, people like talking right out in church. It is a very highly churched culture for sure. For sure. For sure. And there is.

Yeah. been really instructive for me to, um, to kind of encounter this and love it. And, uh, there's much to enjoy. And the people here are just ridiculously amazing around the redness of the state that, you know, is a big deal. Do you find, um, are people there? I keep, I always hear people that live there saying it's just, it is a very friendly place, like it's just easy to make relationships. But then other people say, well, you have that kind of superficial southern charm, but to get really deep is hard. Would you say it's kind of a both and? Yes. Yeah, the stereotype is true for sure.

Like there is a politeness that doesn't lead to much depth, but that's not been our experience in this little community. The experience in this community has been remarkable because I, again, I think there are refugees from the majority church culture that end up finding, um, places, whether it's a podcast or community that, where they have permission to doubt and wonder where they, uh, like we, we empower women in all levels of leadership. That's very uncommon, um, in our area and, um, which, which, you know, it causes a lot of folks to, to not want to participate. And that's totally great. There are loads of great churches, you know, that view the opposite view. But there is, I think, a deep hunger everywhere

for something that allows for what the healthiest podcasts allow for, right, which is this real engagement with real issues and real people and not pretending that, you know, everything is as clean cut and as chipper as we sort of want it to be. Yeah. What's the relationship between your podcast and the church? Is it, does it exist alongside or is it kind of, is it viewed as like a ministry of the church for lack of better terms or? Yeah. Great, great question, Preston. Um, I try to keep them separate because the podcast is intended to stir up conversations and I can take, I can make assumptions about my audience that I would not make in a church setting. Okay. So, um, so like for instance,

if I'm in a church setting and we're heading to the Eucharist, I have a set of assumptions about the people in the room, and I don't carry those assumptions over into a podcast as an example. So I would take much smaller bites around issues and questions and frame them much differently in the church than I would on a podcast. than I would on a podcast. And not because the one is better than the other, but because when you're talking to the same people over and over again in sort of a pastoral role, there to me feels like there's a follow-up responsibility to that that the podcast doesn't always have. Interesting. Have you thought through that? That's well thought out. Have you wrestled with that? We have. I have, yes, for sure. Just because the church and the church leadership is great. They're like, well, yeah, why wouldn't you talk about the podcast? And I'm like, no, no, no, I don't want to because there are people who they're not all in the sort of I have big questions about the faith kind of space.

big questions about the faith kind of space. And just to jump into a podcast on how it is that we're to treat the LGBTQ plus community or, hey, the Bible, in the Bible, God, you know, accommodates human failure a bunch. What's that mean? Like, you're not just primed for those sorts of conversations. And because there's no relational trust that's been built up so the relational trust piece that um i am for the community i'm not here arbitrarily trying to be controversial or that i'm not trying to build a platform or whatever that has to be established over years and uh before you can have some of those conversations. I've often wondered, as I'm constantly exploring how or should podcasts be integrated into the rhythm of a local church. I've often wondered, what if I was in a church that wanted to support the podcast somehow? And they said, hey, what if on on Sunday night, you can do like a live podcast?

Exactly how you do it normally, you know, but it's just, it's at the church. It has embodiment. It integrates this kind of more free thinking, disruptive flavor that you bring. But we think that that shouldn't be the totality of church and maybe not even like a, um, a Eucharistically oriented Sunday worship time. Right. But we do want it to be part of the rhythm of, of the church

for people that are, are wanting that kind. So it's not, you can be a part of the church and never come to the podcast, but you can also be part of the church and, and feel like, you know, this is part of my church identity is engaging in more disruptive kind of conversation. And it could be a blend of maybe audience Q&A. It could be a conversation with me and a Muslim or something and like, hey, let's talk through this. That would be the dream. See, that's the dream is that kind of integration would be awesome.

Okay, can you do that? I mean, I could make a phone call to your leaders and suggest, is that something you would want at your church? I don't want to put you on the spot, actually, because I don't know. Oh, no, no, no. You're not. No spots, dude. This is so fun.

I've been the most resistant one to that. Okay. The church is great. They're magnificent and gracious. I'm the one that's had the like, eh, I don't know. Because if I integrate the two, then I have to change the assumptions I make going into the podcast. I'm not sure I want to do that. I want to be able to say things on the podcast without the pastoral weight, declaring from the front of a stage over

people in a position of authority. Hey, you know, we believe this. And I'm trying this on because, I mean, I don't see myself in a position of authority or whatever. But in a podcast, the medium allows for, hey, so let's try this thought on and let's explore it. But I don't know that I would do that in a kind of conventional church setting. And is it because you are a teaching pastor? They're like, what if I came to your church as just a congregant? I'm just me, nothing changes. Would that space be different

in that I wouldn't carry the same, I like your phrase, pastoral kind of responsibility or weight into it? Yeah, yeah. No, I totally, yes. I totally think that. And as we've started doing Q&A at the end of all of our teachings or in the middle of our teachings, that process has been accelerated

so that like there's that exploring that's happening in real time. But when I prepare, I'm preparing with sort of different sensitivities in mind about what I'd be willing to say and explore and sort of throw out there as opposed to what I'd be willing to say and explore and sort of throw out there as opposed to what I would do on the podcast, which is people can just turn that sucker off and leave. You know, they don't have to ever listen to it again. In a church community, it feels like there's a different dynamic that needs to be respected. And that sort of Eucharistic dynamic where my role, like my, I have a great therapist who said, and this will get back to what we're saying, but she asked me once, she's like, whose wounds are you trying to heal when you teach?

Are they your wounds? And you're trying to, oh, dude, it was changed the way I taught entirely. But when I'm teaching in a church, I'm thinking about the benefit of the community in terms of how this is going to play together when we see each other next week and two years from now and whatever, whatever. In a podcast, I don't feel like I can – I have that same sort of back-end responsibility. Man, that's a, yeah, that's. I don't know if this is right. No, totally. No, I hear what you're saying because I never thought about it,

but I think I might have the same kind of assumption. Like people always ask me, you know, why did you have this guest on or that guest, whatever. My simple answer is like I wanted to talk with them. They seemed like an interesting person, read their book, disagreed with most of it, so I wanted to hear them out, you know, or whatever. Right. or they're an expert it really is a selfish in a sense but that yes it just so happens that what i'm interested in and

the way i go about it seems to resonate with another group of people who like to listen in but i'm not i'm not think i rarely sometimes i do sometimes i do but usually i don't think what would be how could i best serve my podcast audience? And again, I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I just like having interesting conversations with people. Yes. But as a pastor, you do need to think differently, I think. That's right.

Okay. And that's been part of my problem in the past has just been thinking, as long as the teaching is good, I don't have to do much else. And I realized, no, no, no, the teaching is the smallest bit, right, of what it is to be a part of a pastoral team. And so I love exactly what you're saying. I would have people on the podcast that I would never invite to a church community because you haven't loved the church community into a place to receive and discern what it is that they're saying well. Whereas the podcast community, that's just sort of assumed in the format. Okay. So I've often used the distinction of I view a podcast like a conversation with my neighbor that I happen to hit record.

It's not a sermon from a stage where it is more, and again, authoritative might not be the best word, but it is more like, no, okay, I'm not just thinking out loud. I've ironed this out and I am conveying something that I do have more conviction about. That's the distinction. I do wonder, I do wonder though, if a church could, and maybe even need more of the conversation with like, have the conversation in a, maybe not the Sunday service or whatever, but like have a church embrace conversation that is purposely messy with the pastor is saying, yeah, I'm not sure what I think about inerrancy and, and how to go about this.

What do you do with this passage and that? I wonder if that could be pastorally helpful for people. Absolutely. But think about the relational trust required for people to hear that well. Okay. And so we just had a conversation about inerrancy where I was trying to argue one particular definition of inerrancy, which, you know, is one of the more popular ones, but it was like in the original autographs, when all the facts are known and properly interpreted,

the Bible never lies, you know, and never, it never, never disagrees with the facts of the universe. My point was, well, we don't have the original autographs. We don't know what proper interpretation looks like, and we don't know all the facts. So is that a helpful way to describe the Bible? And I was just saying, well, I don't think it, I don't think it is. I think that God doesn't lie and the Bible is faithful in what it records. that God doesn't lie and the Bible is faithful and what it records. But I don't think when you talk about like poetry, inerrant isn't the word I would use there. Right. Like when David cries out, God, where are you? I feel like you've left me. And someone says,

is that an error or not? It's like, that's not the right category to understand someone's human emotions, you know, but. Right. Exactly. Yes. When the psalmist says, God, you know, I pray that you would take the infants of Babylon and dash their heads against the wall. Is that God saying that? No, that's the human saying that. Right. And is that an errant? Oh, it seems pretty errant.

I know what people mean when they use the word. My point in even bringing up that example is that we had to do several weeks worth of work talking about the Bible before we had that conversation. You know what I mean? Whereas on the podcast, it could just come up in conversation. You'd be like, yeah, I'm not sure that's a really helpful concept. And I wouldn't feel the need to sort of lead people into that and lead people out of that while giving them lots of room to be in process with it. Yeah, that's helpful. Back when I was at the Bible college, I felt like I treated the classroom almost more like the podcast. I wasn't afraid to explore, deconstruct, let things sit,

let them be uneasy. But I had them for a semester, in some cases, I mean, two years, you know, or it was a small Bible college, sometimes four years where I'm, you know, hanging out, they're doing meals together, they're watching my kids. So there is that. It was kind of a bullet fan. Absolutely. And it's brilliant that you would teach that way. And that's what made you a great teacher.

But embedded in the form of teacher, lecture, student. Yeah. Is the idea that we're exploring together. And I think there should be more of that in the church. I'm just saying I feel a greater weight to lead people in and out of that more than I do on the podcast. I think the ideal would be, quite honestly, something along the lines of what you had shared, where you have the Eucharistic celebration was that we were exploring that built into the format. It's the idea that we're just going to sit in this and we're not going to resolve it. I think that's beautiful. Absolutely.

I think it would invite people into a more relational authenticity with the pastor too, the person leading the discussion. Totally. Like when a pastor preaches a really polished sermon, how much of that is just really polished and good and everything, but in an honest conversation where they're having to answer a question that they really don't know the answer to, and they're like, you know what? And there's no prep, totally.

There's no prep. You get a lot more, you should get a lot more authenticity. We do. We do. And Preston, that's where we capture that bit of the podcast vibe is that people have now started interrupting and raising their hands and saying like, I don't agree with that. Or I don't understand that. Or it sounds really cliche. And you're like, that or it sounds really cliche and you're like this is i love that this is marvelous right i would love it if somebody said that while i speak yes oh dude there was a guy it was it was the greatest thing ever we were in the sermon on the mount and we were talking about one of the most you know sort of cliche passages about worry and each day has a novel you know enough trouble of its own the guy raises his hand he's like i you, but I feel like you're going to the most

cliched place on this. Please tell me you're not. That was his question. You look at your notes like, oh crap. Yeah, I know. Exactly where I'm going. And what's great, what's great is just simply going, I don't know, someone will ask a question and you're like, I, I, I've never thought about that. I don't have any idea. Or we have a couple of psychologists in the room who will, you know, they'll, they'll ask a spiritual formation question that has great overlap with psychology. And it'll be like, I'm not sure, but here's this person that you should talk to. Like it models all these beautiful things that I think we get to model in the podcast, but I just think there's a

trust earned on the ground that is different at the sermon level. That's good. I've often wondered like the independence of, and I'll just say for me, you know, my podcast, there's no, it's under no authority. it rests on the authority of me and my wife really i'm glad she's involved because if it was just me it might get off the rails but um and i've often thought like because again i have such a i do have a high ecclesiology like i actually think yeah we should have leaders who are spiritual authorities that we place ourselves under like i don't i think that, or can be a good thing. And yet I'm doing this really independent thing,

but then I've had pastors tell me like, yeah, but if you were under some kind of authority, you wouldn't, your podcast would not be the pot. It wouldn't be what it is now. Like your independence is what is actually in turn. I had, um, Kevin Kim, he he's, he's the kind of co-leader with Francis Chan actually in turn, I had Kevin Kim, he's the kind of co-leader with Francis Chan out in the crazy love ministry in the We Are Church.

Anyway, amazing guy. One of my favorite people on earth. And he's like, no, like you actually help us as pastors and leaders because you are untethered to somebody else saying, well, maybe you shouldn't have that guest on or no, do you really want to, that's a little too edgy, you know, you shouldn't have a trans person

interview you on a podcast, you know, which I did a few weeks ago. So I don't know. I just wonder if, if it is actually more helpful for the church that at least for my little lane that I'm in for it to be independent. Yeah. Well, it depends. It depends what you mean by independent. There's spiritually like, like, so I have a board because we're a 501c3 and I have a board that I answer to. And, but they're not church people. They're business people and they, they, they have a, they love Jesus and they love the church, but they don't see this. They see this as a fiduciary responsibility to best serve our audience. So the questions they ask are things like, am I healthy?

Is our co-host Tim healthy? Are we integrous with all the money? Are we thinking about the audience in all things or are we just doing what's easy to us? Um, and, and that's been really helpful, but what they don't do is go, Hey guys. In fact, a couple of them might want us to be far edgier. Absolutely. Um, but they would never just say, you know, they give us feedback absolutely on like how we're executing things. But they would never box us in sort of theologically, which is what I hear you being afraid of. And I couldn't agree more with Kevin about that.

To take that away robs why theology in the raw – I mean it wouldn't live up to its name anymore. You know what i mean i guess i i do have inform for certainly informal influences for one like uh my patreon community of 550 people that and we talk they met we message all the time we do q a podcast we're going to start doing like zoom chats and everything and they'll they'll say hey i think you should have this person on or they'll say yeah you know hey you know you said this but i don't think that's accurate here's why and it's all within a relational like we love what you're doing but and and i always tell them you have complete freedom to to say anything that you feel like was

less helpful or whatever i may even disagree and say ah no i'm gonna stick to my guns on this one or whatever and they're fine with that i'm fine with it. And, you know, I've got friends that listen a lot and it's just not a formal like authority, but certainly I'm not just out winging it by myself. So, yeah, I don't want to make it sound like I'm just. No, you're not. You're not. And there is, even within the podcast community, there are clumps of like-minded sort of podcasts that we kind of all, I mean, I don't know. I kind of watch what you're doing. I watch what others do.

I find that very inspiring. What are some others? Can you name a few that you feel like are in similar spaces that you like? So a huge one is Holy Post. Holy Post is interesting because the first part of it's usually just sort of talking about current events, silly news, and then they'll have an interview for the second half of it. And so I come across people all the time who prefer one of those formats over the other. There's a guy we've had on our show called Tim Gombus. And wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. You know, Tim from Cedarville. I know one of my good friends this whole time. Do you know you sound act talk just like Tim got? I feel

like I'm talking to Tim Gombos when I talk to you. You have the same. I was going to bring it up because I didn't think you knew who he was, though. The same cadence, even phrase. You guys are like, oh, yeah, that's incredible. I think he stole it from me. I mean, just to be honest. So he, my, he has been a massive influence, but he has, um, a podcast called Faith Improvised. He is a New Testament professor and he, his work on, he did a podcast series. He's writing a commentary on Romans. So he podcasted through Romans. And I mean this is not for the faint of heart, man.

This is like wow. But it's so brilliant. Wow. I love – I just absolutely love what he's doing. And the whole cruciform thing was he introduced me to Michael Gorman, who has been a major, major influence. Richard Hayes is another guy that I've kind of accessed through Tim. Tim's been a good friend, and we talk about you every time, and we talk about Cedarville. How did you get to know – when did you start – when did you first find Tim?

Like, did you guys go way back? So I found Tim. Um, he wrote a book on Ephesians that I, I thought was one of the most helpful Ephesian commentaries, although it wasn't technically commentary. And so I, I found him online. He had a blog called faith improvised and I found him in 2010. Oh my God. And I loved the way that he thought about the Christian life. He was talking about celebrity and weakness and things that was really in the middle of wrestling with. And then he and I did an event together where we were talking about are women free to serve in any capacity in the church? Or are the strictures of Timothy and Corinthians really enforced today? And just got to know each other then, invited him on the podcast, and then we have him on probably four or five times a year.

No way. And it's been really fun. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had him on about eight months ago. I think that might have been the first time. Yeah, it was, yeah. I mean, he's such a good dude.

He's such a good dude. Such a good dude. He's such a good dude. Such a good dude. And he has opened up Paul for me in ways that I just had not encountered. And so if there are mannerisms, then I'm sure I've taken them from him. You sound exact. If I close my eyes, I would feel like I'm talking to Tim. Really? Yes.

That's incredible. Yes. Even that. That's so Tim right there. What? Well, then I guess I'm just a pale imitation. But his podcast has been really, really good. Other ones for me, Greg Boyd.

You know Greg Boyd? Yeah, yeah. Out of Minneapolis. He has one called Apologies and Explanations. That's literally just him answering questions. Interesting. Yeah.

Every episode's like three to four to five minutes and it's just him answering a question. He's speaking at the Exiles conference next year. Oh, I know. Oh, I know. I mean, bro. I'm impressed. I'm not going to lie. I'm impressed at some of'm excited. Oh, I know. I mean, bro, you've, I mean, I'm impressed.

I'm not going to lie. I'm impressed at some of the fish here that you have landed. And then there are smaller sort of regional podcasts, but I actually, I don't know about you, I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I'm typically, you know, in my own head thinking about the content we're doing or whatever yeah you know do you listen to do you only i almost only listen to secular podcasts um oh that's good some somebody might say it's good let me um yeah like what unspeakable with megan down the vpzd show with um oh who is that well uh lex friedman sometimes joe rogan oh barry weiss um is probably my favorite she's my go-to journalist if anything happens in the news

she's my go-to or um yeah i follow her on twitter she's a she's amazing she's a who um andrew sullivan sometimes i listen to uh katie herzog and jesse single blocked and reported they're they're they're really funny but really sharp so yeah they're basically like classical liberal um yeah journalistic types you know that are accused of being kind of right wing because they're not on the far extreme left you know and they're kind of sick of the, like Barry Weiss is a classic example. I mean, here's a very lesbian atheist checks off all the boxes on being, you know, liberal, but she's just really turned off by how heavy handed kind of the far left has become. I just, I just, I love listening to people that are just independent thinkers. They're're heterodox they're not afraid to say something that might go against whatever tribe they might

be in you know i mean rogan's that way too and um yeah anyway so i uh there is uh i do list so the pour over podcast is where i get my news from have you heard of this dude no i haven't it's a genuinely non-partisan seven minute overview of just give me the facts of what big events tell me what happened they're incredible um and we've i've had i've had him on the show the guy who founded it um that's basically where i get my news from there just give me the facts and i'll go to like barry weiss or somebody if i want a more in-depth conversation. Yeah. Truth Over Tribe. I just had these guys on.

Truth Over Tribe. They discuss – they push back against any kind of tribalism in the church. They're really awesome. I'm really loving those guys. Those are probably the two Christian podcasts. And I guess there's a few others that i dabble in here and there but yeah yeah like i love if we're if we're broadening um i'd go conan o'brien needs a friend i just love love how i just i think he's a riot but yeah i just find myself doing a lot of thinking and reading and studying and i don't't often, sometimes if I have

podcasts on kind of in the background, um, for like sports, like, you know, it used to be like sports. I would have in the background now it's now it's fun podcast, but I'm not a super attentive, uh, attentive listener, but all that is to say, I love what you're thinking, man, about. So, so take the conference that you're doing. Yeah. Right? See, you're already moving this way. You're already moving towards incarnation.

Yeah, there's something that you can do in a conference you just can't do in a series of podcasts. It's just different. Right. Right? To gather people for three days as opposed to just have all of those same guests on your podcast. That was so, mean honestly me because most people there we had what like maybe 1100 people i would say about oh that's amazing and about 95 were from out of town like there's i had a show of hands who here's from out of out of

idaho and the whole like everybody's hand went i did talk to some people they were like hey i couldn't my hand didn't go up but you didn't't, you know, you couldn't see it. But so, and almost everybody was there, had some relationship with the podcast. So I'm meeting people for the first time, names I've heard, they've sent them questions. Some are Patreon supporters and stuff. It was so fun to get that embodiment, you know, I mean, and there was a wide range. You could tell from what they were cheering at and what they were kind of booing at during the conference. So it was a fairly broad, theologically broad audience, I would say. It could be broader, but I mean, in terms of conferences, usually conferences are put on. Everybody has the same perspective.

People come because they want to be encouraged in what they already believe. Maybe that's too cynical. Yeah, this was a pretty broad range of people. Yeah, it was fun. I just find it interesting you're moving that way. It's fun, man. And yeah. And I mean, the people who love the church bit more than I do are my kids.

To be in a church where that sort of wrestling is done and yeah it's been phenomenal phenomenal for them so they they actually have hope that um and it's certainly not perfect my lord no yeah yeah but it's been super healthy so far yeah and um to have places to ask questions and be skeptical and be curious has been really great because they certainly do not listen to their freaking dad's podcast i can tell you that you know what i did i just had my um third daughter on the podcast she's an enneagram five deep deep thinker high bs meter and has she reads like a ton of books and just like sweetest kid in the world um but a deep think like a i first you would you meet her and she's just so kind and loving everything and then she'll throw you a bomb of a theological question you're like i've never heard that question before i don't know what i think about

that um so we we go out to um chips and salsa every couple weeks and i sorry she keeps lists of theological questions you know why did god have to kill the canaanites you know like okay soldiers i get that but women and children you know and then i'm like well there's other ways interpret this and she's like i want to know are you just like trying to cover up something that's difficult or is that really what the text says oh wow oh dude oh dude why did god kill already ananias and sapphira for lying? He did really bad stuff, but there's other people doing bad stuff. How can he not kill them? Is God going to kill me if I lie?

Why not? That doesn't seem fair. He doesn't kill me, but he kills them. Just on and on and on. So we just basically did that live conversation. I didn't know ahead of time what she was going to ask me, and we just went through her questions. So, yeah, anyway.

Oh, well, that's one good way to get them to listen. I like that. Yeah yeah that's so smart um she's your what 13 14 she's my uh 15 15 year old yeah 15 okay yeah that's awesome how old are your kids we're similar we're i have uh 1917 and almost 14 that's right yeah so we're yeah we're cooking baby We're in the middle of it. Giddy up. They like living in Franklin. They, they do. It's a, it's a little different pace than what we're used to. So they were born and raised in California. And so it's just the, the pace of life is so much healthier and yeah, it's been great. Yeah. You should think about it someday. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. don't know i don't know maybe shit yeah we we came really close a couple times moving out there i don't know

that's why i'm just saying like well i'll keep uh what are they what's the motel lad i'll keep a light on for you do that absolutely showing your age yeah i won't lie man i might move just for the barbecue though oh my gosh let me Let me tell you. That is facts. And Nashville hot chicken is a real thing, and it's wonderful. Yeah, food in general there is just, oh, my gosh. I start planning. Whenever I travel to Nashville, I swear, two weeks ahead of time, I'm already on Yelp planning my meal schedule. That's fair.

That is absolutely fair. No question, man. I'm just so proud of you bro and i love what you're up to and um thank you you're such a great interviewer because like i had no idea what we're going to talk about but you get you get on to something and you just ask a million questions and i love it and you're thinking about it and it's just so fun, dude. Well done. I forgot you were even coming on. I look at my calendar and I'm like, oh, I'm talking to Mike right now. Just kidding. I knew you were coming on. That's a joke. That's hurtful. I've been looking forward to this for months.

So I dressed up. I dressed up. I did my hair. You still have Rogaine model or Rogaine something on your Twitter profile. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. I'm I'm I'm yeah. Yeah. I mean, what, what are you going to do with this? You know, I'm married. So that check that box, but otherwise goatee in the Harley, you could, you could rock that. I could totally rock that. You're absolutely right. Or be a bouncer is the

other option I've been thinking about. I'd be a good bouncer. So, yeah. I mean, Preston, listen. As long as you keep your hat on, you'll look great. Alright? So just keep it on and you know,

be perpetually 35. Yeah, I do wear a hat a lot. I mean, I've just, I've always worn hats, but like, oh, they're so gray, dude. And like, I feel like every month I'm getting gray. It's just like, it's just like going very gray really fast, but whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Well, just shave it.

I mean, is there any gray here? Nope. No gray. No. I had it shaved probably 10 years ago. Not quite like skin, but it was really short for about a couple of years. It was fun. It was like a little maintenance, you know, but yeah,

it was very low maintenance. Absolutely dude. Well buddy, I got to run. Uh, thanks so much for the conversation. And, um, I, I, yeah, I, I, uh, I would love to keep the dialogue ongoing about just kind of an ecclesiology of podcasting. And yeah, if you have any other thoughts or revelations or out-of-body experiences along those lines, let me know.

We'd love to keep thinking about it. That'd be really fun. Yeah, absolutely, man. Thanks. Hey, thanks for the convo.

I love it. Yeah, you too, man. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.