Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1044: Abuse, Suicidality, Same-Sex Sexuality, and the Love of Christ: Brenna Blain

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

When looking at Brenna Blain you might not guess that she works in ministry, with a body adorned in tattoos and piercings she doesnt fit the evangelical look many have grown up with, but that's just Brenna. Her ministry focus is on providing resources for churches, ministries and individuals who are seeking to find God in the midst of difficult topics and hard conversations. Whether she's teaching at conferences, producing podcasts or writing, you will find Brenna inviting you to pursue Biblical truth with compassion and conviction. Brenna obtained her BA in Theology and Biblical Studies from Multnomah University in Portland, Oregon and has lived in the PNW her entire life. Her greatest joys are her two sons and her husband Austin. While she speaks on many topics, Brenna is especially passionate about God’s involvement in our pain and personal struggles including mental illness, same sex attraction and abuse. In this podcast conversation, Brenna shares her story about her journey with abuse, mental health challenges, questions around her sexuality, and how her hope in Christ has remained constant in the midst of many challenges. If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!

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Gold Level supporters get all of this and access to monthly Zoom chats where we basically blow the doors open on any topic they want to discuss. My patrons play a vital role in nurturing the mission of Theology in Raw. And for me, just personally, interacting with my Patreon supporters has become one of the hidden blessings in this podcast ministry. So you can check out all of the info at patreon.com forward slash Theology in Raw. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology inRaw. That's patreon.com forward slash TheologyNRaw. Hey, friends. Welcome back to another episode of TheologyNRaw. My guest today is Brenna Blaine. I met Brenna over Instagram a few months back. She is one of the more requested guests that I have received from various people on social media. Now, some of you might not know the name Brenna

Blaine. In fact, a lot of you might not know the name Brenna Blaine. But those of you who do know Brenna Blaine are, I'm going to guess, incredibly, incredibly loyal followers. There's a lot of people that absolutely love her voice. And as you will see from this episode, it's easy to love the voice of Brenna Blaine. She is a committed Jesus follower, has had a rather turbulent journey

that she talks in very open ways about on this podcast episode. She's been through a lot of stuff and has clung to Christ or more importantly, Christ has clung to Brenna. And I just absolutely love her raw, her real, her authentic perspective on life, on the gospel and all that comes with that. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Brenna Blank. Brenna, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I've been really excited about this conversation. Yeah. You already know I'm really excited too. Well, I told you offline that a while back, I think I was asking on social media, who do you guys think I should have on the show? I forget the context, but a lot of people were like, you got to have Brenna on.

And so there was NT Wright, the Pope, and then five Brenna Blaines. So there you go. Oh my gosh. It's my social media mob. Yeah, you sicked your mom on me. Good. Let's just start for people who are like, who's Brenna Blaine? Tell us who Brenna Blaine is. Yeah. So I guess primarily right now I'm a mom. I got two little kiddos, a four-year-old and a one-year-old. I'm a wife. I'm 27 years old. And I tried to avoid ministry the majority of my life and found myself

thrown into it and asking difficult questions and then found that a lot of other people were also intrigued with asking difficult questions of the church and of faith. And so those are the circles that I kind of run in. And I still don't really know what I'm doing. I mean, I primarily speak and write, and that's what I really love to do. But I still don't really know what I'm doing. I just show up when God opens doors and asks me to walk through them. And sometimes I don't want to go. Were you raised in the church in a Christian home? Like, what was your background like? Yeah. So my dad was a pastor, I think from the time he graduated college until I was about four

years old. So I grew up in very typical kind of like evangelicalism. I knew who God was. I knew... My perception was that Christianity was kind of like a rule a list of do's and don'ts but that wasn't like i don't when i look back i don't think that's how my parents presented christianity to me but i think that's how my young mind kind of understood it that seems very natural that's where we go like just right i think kids just need that kind of binary like what's where's the line what's right what's wrong can i do the wrong thing what happens if i do the wrong you know like that it's very kind of simplified i feel like sometimes yeah i don't know if it's been pounded into us vocally it's just kind of in the air like when you grow up in the church

like i don't know never really thought about it but did you have a time of like, I know this term is thrown around a lot, but like deconstruction? Or what was your faith journey like when you started to bump into lots of hard questions and wrestling with things? Like what was that period like for you? Yeah, so for me, I don't necessarily refer to it as deconstruction, but my questions with faith started at a really young age. I remember one of the first things that I most actively prayed for as a young child was that my grandma was diagnosed with cancer, I think when I was like six or seven. And so that was like the first time I had ever prayed for something like almost every day. And so I was like talking to God. And when I was nine, I went away

to summer camp and I came back home and she had died. And I just remember thinking like, wait a second, I've been praying for healing and I've been told that God heals and this was not the case. And so that was in August. A few months later, my parents sat us down and said, we're getting separated. My dad moved out. And I thought, okay, this isn't like how Christians usually, I don't know, just like it was like started sparking these questions in my mind. And then I think it was like a month and a half after that, I ended up being molested in community sports and my parents didn't know. And so for me, I was going to church on the weekends as a 10 year old hearing, hey, the biggest thing you

probably wrestle with is lying to your parents. And God can help us when we lie to your parents. And I'm like sitting in the chairs without language to express. Actually, no. The biggest thing that I struggle with is that I was molested. And my dad doesn't live at home. And people are dying. And this isn't the God.

How can I say God is good? And so that really, um, all those things, especially because I didn't share what happened to me, I just got worse and worse. So by the time I was 14, I was super depressed, suicidal. And then I also realized that I was attracted to women. And I knew, not because of how my parents talked about gay people at all, but because the Westboro Baptist was huge in the news at that point. I was like, okay, my attractions definitely are not compatible with Christianity. And so I prayed, God, if you're real, would you make me straight? And that did not happen for me. Can you unpack that a little more? I mean,

that's a big bomb you're dropping on us. Yeah. So my parents were, I think they were tuned into some of the struggles that I was going through, but they didn't know specifics. And I was not ready to come out to them. And so they said, hey, our rule for our kids is that you would be in church. But you don't have to go to our church. If you find a different church you want to go to, that's great. And so I found a youth group that was i'm an enneagram for i don't know if you can tell from my neck tattoo but i was gonna i have i was gonna ask about your looks like it's very new uh it is

very new i was like this is a great time to do it to do an interview but i um i found a youth group that like almost all the kids in this youth group had their own bands. And they listened to alternative rock music. And it was just, I made friends so quick. But I remember the first weekend I went, met the pastor. He asked me my name and where I went to school. And then I went back the next week and he said, Brenna, right? And I was shocked that he remembered my name because the church I'd been at before,

I'd been at like for eight years and didn't feel like anyone remembered me. And so I kept going. And kind of, I've heard other people share about Tumblr on your podcast when you do interviews, but Tumblr was huge. And so I thought, even though it had my name on it, I thought my Tumblr was very private. And so that was kind of like, I was out to a few friends and then I was like out on Tumblr. And someone from my church found my Tumblr and told my small group leader. And she was young. She was like a senior when I was a freshman. And she was super great, but she said, I have no idea what to do, Brenna. So I just need to let you know, I told John,

who's our youth pastor. And I freaked out because I thought he's going to ask me to leave. He's going to tell me that this is sinful. I already know this. And he's going to tell my parents, he's going to out me to my parents. But I just really wrestled because this was like the one place during the week that I actually felt happy in like this terrible season of depression. And so I was like, I think I can go, because this is a pretty big youth group. So I was like, I think I can go and just avoid John like all night. And I think I can keep this up. This is not the case. I don't, you know, when you're like 14, your brain's not firing on all cylinders, but showed up and we make eye contact and he says, Hey Brenna, can I talk to you later tonight? And I just like, my heart sunk. And so we ended up sitting down after church and he said, Hey, I just need you to know that you are not alone. A lot of Christians struggle with same

sex attraction. And I'm really glad you're here. And then he like, he either gave me a hug or like pat me on the back and then like got up and left. And that was it. And that like shocked me that it wasn't like this. You're terrible. You're, you're going to hell. Like all these things that I expected just didn't happen. And all of a sudden, and it wasn't that I was questioning, oh, maybe he has different theology than I thought he did. It was just, uh, he made that youth group a safe place. Like all of a sudden it was

okay that I was there. And so I continued to go back and that ended up being kind of a miracle that John said that because later, but I was like, I think it was like a year later, I had no real theology of sexuality, especially at that age. And so I thought because I was not being made straight that I was damned to hell. And so we did like a hot button issues series. And one of them was is being gay. And so I went and I remember that night just feeling like, I think it was like bright red the entire night. I just felt like everyone knew that I was gay and like that I was there. And that's not the truth. But the guy who was speaking was not same sex attracted, not gay, but he talked about how he's like, it's so crazy when straight people get married. when straight people get married, no one expects for their attractions to other people just like melt away. But what they do expect is this maturity in Christ to say no to these outside temptations. And I just don't know why we don't extend that to people who are same-sex attracted.

And that blew my mind. I'd never heard that before. So all of a sudden, I was offered this piece of theology about sexuality that would allow me, if I came to the conclusion that God was real and that God is to be revered and God is to be trusted, that I could be in right relationship with Him if I wanted to be. And so that, I think that sermon lived in my brain for years because I wasn't, I wasn't ready to make that choice. And I was still having conversations on the side with my friends who were out. How did you come out to your parents? Like, what was that like? And then I was dating guys, some friends, and it just like wasn't working out. But I ultimately was like, man, I just don't, I don't buy any of this.

And I just, I think it's stupid and I don't know. And so I thought how. Would you say don't buy any of this? Buy any of what? Like the... The Christian stuff? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And so I went to a college prep high school that I was terrible. I got bad grades and I hated it. And I did not want to go to college. And so I was like, I need to run away from God and faith and all this stuff. And my parents was like, I need to run away from God and faith and all this stuff. And my parents were like, you just go do something. I'm sure they knew some of what I was internally thinking, but they're like, just go. Why don't you just go do something fun or get away, even if you're not going to go to school? And so I thought the best way to hide from God would be if I went and did youth with a mission, because I think I could go. And like, if I went to Maui, I think I could surf all

day. And I think I could smoke a lot of weed. Like, I think that's what will end up happening. And that's not what ended up happening. Right? Like, it was just like this, it felt like it would make sense. And then I got there and it was crazy because I think everyone who ended up there in my specific school, I think everyone was funky leadership and funky theology and just things that aren't super helpful and maybe some like spiritual manipulation. But at the same time, I think my first week there, I prayed this prayer that was like, okay, Lord, if you're real, would you just make yourself known? And then that happened. And then I was like, okay, I don't know, but I'm just going to surrender my life to you and that that six months away completely changed my life wow so that so you first so you you covered i want to say about five years right there right you first came out or got or got outed really at 14 and then this is now you're what 18 19 at ywam yeah um and was it the so you said it was at the kona campus or is there one in Maui too?

I was in Maui. Oh, Maui. Okay. I got a good friend at the Kona campus right now. So it was at YWAM that you had this encounter with Christ for lack of better terms. I mean, that was, you know, a turning point in your life. And then obviously your same sex attraction went away completely because now you know Jesus right now.

Oh yeah, totally. Gone. No, I remember saying to a girl we became really good friends with while we were there. Because there was a thing where it was like even if you had kind of dealt with your past sins, like everyone confesses their past sins no matter what to everyone, which was one of those things. as their past sins, no matter what to everyone, which was one of those things I was like, I don't think that's super healthy for like 18 year olds in a super emotionally charged atmosphere. But my friend said, I told that to her and she said, Brenna, I love you. I don't think of you any differently under no circumstances.

Should you share this with anyone else here? Because I think you would be sent home. And I clinged to that. And it says, should you share this with anyone else here? Because I think you would be sent home. Really? And I clinged to that. And looking back, I think that was like wisdom from her. And I think I would have been really, really hurt if that would have happened. Ended up during that six months talking to the Lord about marriage, talking to the Lord about my sexuality, and just saying, Okay, Lord, you know that I have always had a desire to have a family. You know I have a desire to spend my life with someone.

But also, I don't believe being alone the rest of my life, if it means having you, if it means running after you and chasing you, I think being alone would be okay. Like, I don't think it would be the worst. And so that's kind of, that was the time when I landed with sexuality going, I don't think I'm going to be made straight. I do think this is going to be a struggle for the rest of my life. I'm okay with that. I believe the Lord will be sufficient in my temptations and my struggles, but I'm also going to live by this biblical sexual ethic. Did you wrestle with an affirming view from the Bible? There's lots of Christian authors now defending an affirming view of same-sex marriage. Did you go through a theological journey where you were kind of like weighing both sides of that debate? Or was it really clear from the beginning of your journey what the Bible says? I did not travel through the theological

arguments until after I got married. And I read your book and I had a little bit of a crisis because I felt like when I was reading through People to be Loved, like we were going in a direction that I was really nervous about. And then we got to the end and it was okay. But I think we read that. I think I'd been married for like a year at that point. Cause I, I had been, well, there's, there's a whole, there's a whole lot there. So I got home from YWAM and this was the first time I went off mental health medications because I was put on mental health medications at 14 and was on them all through high school, always at YWAM. Came home, really felt like I was healed, like the Lord had done a work. I was like, really just had never felt that way before.

And was kind of just working through while I was at YWAM. I did not grow up charismatic whatsoever. While I was at YWAM, received many words from people about being in ministry and teaching and speaking. And I thought, you're out of your mind because I've never spoke. I absolutely have no desire to be in ministry. And it's just like, it doesn't make sense. And then I got home and I just could not stay away. I think specifically like from youth ministry, because I was just like, oh, I don't. There is so much that the Lord has for teenagers that I wish I knew, that I wish I knew how alive Christ is when I was in high school. And so it was like a

month after being back, a guy called and said, Hey, could you speak at our youth group? And I said, okay. And so I ended up going, okay, Lord, you keep putting me on a stage, which is fine. That's fine. But I am not equipped to do this. So are you asking me to go back to school, to study theology? Like, do I have to do these things that I hate? Because also, my four years during high school, I went to Mars Hill in Portland, Oregon. Oh, okay. So that's a whole piece. It's probably important.

A whole other thing. But all that to say, my idea of theology where people who are into theology were really mean, reformed people. And like, that was it. And I was like, I want to do this. So I ended up at Multnomah and Brad Harper was actually my theology professor. Oh, no way. Okay.

Yeah. And so it was just, I ended up there and I ended up working as a youth pastor, going to school for theology. And I had just gotten married to my husband, Austin. And all of a sudden, stopped sleeping. This is really weird, but I just couldn't sleep. This is in 2017 when I entered ministry vocationally. Couldn't stop thinking about death. Couldn't like, I, it was just like, all of a sudden it was like my mental health issues came back, but in mass quantity, like never had like experienced anything like that. So it started in September and I went into work on a Monday morning in January of 2018. And I had been praying that the Lord would heal me, and it didn't happen.

And it had been so long since I had slept. And I was trying to do school, and I was trying to be a pastor. And I thought, well, if I'm not going to be healed, I might as well just go be with the Lord. So I'm going to kill myself. I'll just do that. And so that was Monday morning. I met with John, who was my youth pastor, who is now my supervisor training me. And I said, I'm thinking about, I'm praying about stepping down because I didn't want all this to come as a shock. I'm praying about stepping down because I didn't want all this to come as a shock. And he said, okay, we'll pray with you.

Why don't you step out of your meetings for the rest of the day? And so I knew that I could go home, attempt suicide, and that I would probably die before my husband got home from work. And so I went to my office and I felt like I couldn't leave and so I set a timer on my phone for 30 minutes and I was like as soon as this and it wasn't fear or anxiety it was just like this really weird feeling so I felt I set a timer on my phone the timer went off I packed my bags I stood up and my office door flies open and it's like my best friend's mom. And she said, do I need to take you to the hospital? And I was like, no, that's weird. And she said, Brenna, you need to sit down. Do I need to, like, is there any relief in the idea of taking you to the hospital. And I like broke down and she had been, she had gone coffee with someone and was driving back to her house and felt like the Lord said, could you pull

over and pray? So she pulled over and started praying. And while she was praying, she felt like the Lord said, you need to go get Brenna. And just like miraculously, like in the minute that I was going to leave my office to go home, this woman walks into my office. And so she takes me to the hospital. It was not a secret that I had been struggling at all. I was pretty open with people. And I had a friend who said, I want you to meet with this guy. And he was like an older gentleman who was a pastor. And I met with him and he had some good insights, but I just like wasn't feeling good about that. And then, yeah, it was just, it was really, really funky.

And so I'm in the hospital. The nurse is like taking me through. I promise this is all connected. The nurse is taking me through getting all my blood stuff going. And he was asking me, and he knew I was there on suicide watch, and asking me these questions. And for some reason, I think he asked what I was doing. And I said that I like went to school for theology. And he said, um, oh, my wife, my wife goes to Western. And I was like, oh, cool.

And he goes, yeah, you know, Gary Brashears. And that was the man that I had had coffee with that I had just met. And I like, didn't like, I didn't really know anything about him besides what I knew from going to Mars Hill. Um, and I was just like, why, like, why am I in the hospital? Why did someone pick me up? Why does this nurse know this guy? Then I get transferred to a psych ward. And that night was like, my husband followed me up, but he wasn't allowed to come in and they were switching the nurses shifts. And I, so the nurse said, you're going to be alone for like an hour. And I like sat on the edge of my bed and was like, this is terrible. Cause the locked units are a lot like jail cells.

terrible because the locked units are a lot like jail cells. And I just, that was like the first time in my life ever where I had been completely alone. Like no one was allowed in my room. No one was coming to visit. And I just remember thinking that verse that I hate, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, prayer and supplication, make your request known to the lord and i was like well that's all i have like that's all i can do literally because i have nothing i don't have a phone i can't see anyone i want to die there's nothing in this room i can kill myself with so i just said okay lord like i asked you to heal me you are that's obviously not your will for me, but would you be with me right now? Wow. And I slept for the first time in like six months. I slept for eight hours straight.

And I think about that moment because there is nothing else that makes sense other than that the Lord was like, yes, I'll be with you. And so the next morning, the psychiatrist walks in and he looked at me, looked at my chart and said, did you do YWAM? That's the first thing that came out of this man's mouth. And I'm like, you're a doctor. You're not supposed to be asking faith questions. he goes you just look like you run in those circles and i said yeah i do that and then he goes so how does um trying to commit suicide fit in with your theology this is a wow yeah this is a psychiatrist in a psych ward in the middle of nowhere and I just said, it doesn't. And he said, you have some things you have to do and you need, you need to get better if you're going to do them. And I, and so it was

just like every single moment along this, like insanity that happened right after I got married that from the moment I decided to, that I was going to commit suicide, that the Lord was at work, like relentlessly pursuing me. And it was something that I couldn't, like, those are all things you can't ignore. But so when I came out of that and I ended up so weird, I took a pregnancy test and I found out I was pregnant. And just like all these, you're like, why? And so I was like, I need to not be a youth pastor. I don't want to be a pastor. I really don't feel like I'm supposed to be in here, but Lord, what are you calling me towards? And I really felt like He was like, look back at your life, what you've struggled with, what you're passionate about. All this mess that you felt

like has been so weighty and isolated, and just that you've wondered, why have you gone through this? This is what your ministry will be like. And so that's still very much unfolding. Like, there are things where I'm like, okay, Lord, I don't know what I'm doing this week. I don't know what you want me to do. But I think because of walking through those things, I've found myself to be continuously passionate about the spiritually suspicious and those people who are saying, I just think so many of those things lead people to deconstruction or lead people away from

God. And when I look back at all the things that I've walked through, it's insane to me that I believe the Lord has unveiled himself through all those things. And so that kind of, I mean, that was in 2018. I finished school. I started a podcast. I started asking questions in community settings. And so that's where I land today. That's not that.

So, I mean, I have so many questions, by the way. I try not to interrupt too much, but just to point out, I mean, that's a really dark space you're in. And I would imagine a decent percentage of people are just resonating so much with that space right now. You know, we think it's like a fringe population. This is a, this is a, especially with younger people and the stuff they're going through, like that's not, this is not, your journey is not unusual. post theological degrees, post you're a pastor, you're married, all these things that people think, oh, if you have all these boxes you're taking off, then life must be fine. You wouldn't

expect somebody to have several months of anxiety-induced insomnia and be on the edge of your hospital bed at a psych ward because you're about to commit suicide. That's not part of the package that we're being sold as Christians. It's kind of like if you do all these things, then everything will be hunky-dory. So, I mean, I just want to – I don't know if that's a question. I just want to point that out that doing all the kind of right things doesn't always make life easier. In fact, sometimes they can make life harder. And there's a lot of shame, I think, in Christian leaders that struggle deeply with life as you have an are and we all are and I just I love the fact that you're able to talk about it

because I think there's a lot of leaders listening that are like yeah I feel like that I just can never say that can never yeah as a pastor I can't check myself into a psych ward because I'd lose my job or, you know, so that, I mean, 2018, that's not that that's five years ago. Um, what's it been like since it, is this an ongoing struggle? Can you pinpoint why you have, can I say anxiety? Is that the right word? Like, like a struggle with anxiety that leads to insomnia. When I was in the, in the psych ward, I got, which is really curious. So in September, I noticed all that anxiety. So I went back on a medication that had worked for me. I think it was an SSRI. And I got diagnosed as bipolar

two when I was coming out of the psych ward. And they said, hey, by the way, that medication you were on was not making you better. It was making you worse. And it basically put me into a medically induced like mania for the entirety that I was taking it. And so coming out of it, I, you know, I, part of the, when you get released from the hospital is you have to create a care plan. So, um, and it was like terrible timing because my therapist was like going to be on a two month sabbatical or something. So I had to find a new therapist. Um, I was put on different mental, mental health medications, just started being, I want to say I expected that I was going

to lose my job. Like I didn't think it was going to be an option. And when I went back, I didn't think it was going to be an option. And when I went back, the church said, we would love for you to stay. And we're going to give you a month of medical leave to just rest and to think about what you want to do next. But we would love for you to stay. And I said, really? Because I've been diagnosed as bipolar. And they said, that doesn't matter to us.

You love the Lord. And that I recognize that that is very different compared to like what a lot of people have experienced or what a lot of people anticipate. And so ultimately I did feel like God was saying like, no, I'm not calling you to be a pastor. And so I did step down, but I think that was huge, was stepping down and just focusing on school. So they didn't make you step down, you stepped down, and that was in 2018. And are you still, you're not, you never went back to being a youth pastor full time? Nope, nope. I never went back to pastoral ministry, and I'm very, very thankful for it. I think, man, being a pastor is the hardest job

in the world. The Lord really opened up a lot of doors for me too. I think since then I've been either writing for, speaking for, or consulting for churches and ministries, which is my absolute passion. Like, I just love it. What kind of, what kind of writing, what kind of consulting, like, is it around sexuality or just kind of anything? It's kind of whatever. I mean, most of the time the consulting is, hey, we're doing a series on gender and sexuality. Like, what was your experience? How, our home church here has done like a really remarkable job.

I think they ended up doing either six weeks or eight week long series on gender and sexuality that I got to help be a part of. But just saying, how do we do this well? What are young people dealing with? What do they think through when they're going through this. Um, writing is, I mean, I've written about, um, abuse and about same-sex attraction and mental health is kind of those three main points. And then, um, speaking because I went to school for theology, I get a little bit more freedom in that. And so that's usually just, Hey, we're doing a conference on this. So. Yeah. I'm curious when you consult on gender and sexuality, like what are some big picture,

like that six week, eight week series, or if churches are like, Hey, we want to tackle this topic. What, what are some things we need to do or not do? What, what's your, um, what are your main points you, you tell leaders? What I've found recently is that a lot of people who don't struggle, so we'll say like cishet people, when they think, I think because- I'm the only audience that probably knows exactly what that means. Right. I was like, I can use this term here. Because it's LGBTQ, I have found that I get so many questions on gender and I'm like, I am, I struggle with same-sex attraction, but I have never struggled with gender dysphoria. And so kind of saying to people like, go to the people who have been willing to talk about their experience and get their experience from them. Because I, yeah, I think it's really

interesting that people are like, oh, you're gay. Like, tell me about gender. And I'm like, I cannot because it's not a struggle that I've been through. And I like it, it would be unfair and unkind for me to try and speak on it. And then I think the, something that I'm convinced would have changed my upbringing in the church is a continual language of inclusion and recognizing that same-sex attracted Christians and Christians who struggle with gender dysphoria are in your church. They're not these outside people. They're not like people who are far your church. They're not these outside people. They're not people who are far from God. They are sitting in your pews. They are people you are friends with. And so I always think, when I was in high school, instead of having the sex talk and then going to youth group and being like, well, what boys do you like? If it was a sexuality talk and then saying like hey we all have sexual brokenness can you identify what it is in your life that would have radically i think destroyed

so much shame and guilt and it just would have brought this sense of like oh oh, this is not, I am not far off from the Lord. Like the Lord can still use me and be active in my life. And I'm not a secret to be hidden or a person to be shamed. I'm a person, because I just think it's so normal for people to talk about struggling with pornography or sex outside of marriage. But it is still somewhat taboo to talk about same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria. You're in the Portland area still, right? I am, yes. So when you work with churches, because Portland is notoriously a very progressive city and everything. And I would imagine that for churches there, this is not some kind of fringe issue.

This is right at the center of what they're wrestling with. Would that be true? Or can you describe the church scene in Portland? Yeah. So I would say, I mean, you think of like you think of Bridgetown and you think of some other big churches like I'm in Vancouver. So I'm about 10 minutes across the river. And so I think of like the more mega sized churches here do hold a non-affirming traditional sexual ethic. But then the majority, like I, if I go to a small church, I kind of assume they're affirming.

Okay. Um, and I think that's pretty normal. And so I, and I think probably because of the way I look, I have a lot more people who are like, Hey, you're gay. And then it's like, I had actually, I had an interview once where they said, I love, um, I love your story. Like, let's talk about it. And then in the middle of the interview, they found, they found out that I was non-affirming and I was like, Ooh, you did not do your homework. And that was like wildly shocking.

And it just made a really strange interview. Um, but I, yeah, I think people are like, I think it's more common for this. I think assumptions here are normal and people assume you're affirming. And so, yeah, it's a little bit, it's not wildly hostile, but it is a little bit more hostile. Okay. Yeah. What are some others? So like going back, like when you talked to if churches are going to dive in and address the topic and disciple their people. So a big one you said is, you didn't use this phrase, but I think it's kind of what you're getting at. Like not making this, this isn't an us versus them. Like there's, this isn't out there. You know, how do we, I get people, you know, okay, we want to love the gay community, you know, like out there. And how do we do that? do that like well how are you doing it with the people in your peers yeah and if you if you dare tell me there are none then

let's start there you know so that's that's a and in uh the phrase i this phrase sometimes can be misunderstood but um i hear you well yeah i don't want to put a word in your mouth but like normalizing the experience now that word can be taken in two ways. It could be taken in like, um, normalizing, say a certain behavior could say you're not naming sin. And that's not what I mean. I'm saying like, there's a whole gamut of human experiences in this broken, fallen world. And, um, yeah, there's, there's lots of people going through lots of different things. And that's what I mean about normalizing. Yeah. What are some other key things that you tell leaders, pastors, parents, maybe even as they're wrestling with the topic? Not to rush or to have your first thing be, well, what do you believe theologically?

as my youth pastor as a teen, I think if the first thing he would have said, which he literally never talked about it and I never questioned him, but I think if he would have said, well, you know what our church believes or, you know, I believe or like, what do you believe? I think it would have put me in a situation or it would have made me feel like I was a theological issue to be dealt with rather than a person to be in relationship with. And my, I know people, like I always talk about this when I talk about sexuality, but I love, I think it's in Mark chapter, it's either in Mark chapter two or Mark chapter four, when Jesus is approaching Levi, the tax collector, and how just the cultural feelings towards tax collectors in that historical setting, how they just hate it. And I assume that when people who had heard of Jesus or had been interacting with him saw him approaching Levi, that they were like anticipating him, calling him out of this behavior, and that Jesus simply says, follow me. And in that gives Levi an opportunity to see the person of Christ, to experience the person of Christ, and then decide, am I going to actually follow Jesus or am I going to return to my tax booth? And I think it's so unfair when we call people before they ever know the person of Christ to the standards of Christ.

I just think that's, it's unkind. And it's like, we tell people to fall in love with Jesus and then we don't give them that opportunity. And so when I think when we rush to, well, what do you believe theologically or seeing people on those issues, we're saying, or seeing people on those issues were saying, there's no space for you to wrestle here. When I see the opposite in Jesus's interactions, not that truth isn't, not that Jesus doesn't hold truth, but that he gave people time to experience him and then decide for themselves. That the theological conversation should happen in the context of a relationship or at least yeah i mean it's counterintuitive too especially as you know i'm a i guess technically a theologian so i love theology i love the bible and i often give these i mean honestly but bretta the same

exact advice like especially with parents with lgbtq kids um the number one thing is don't don't don't front load or rush that theological conversation. And it's almost like some people at least are like, yeah, but okay, when can we get the Leviticus? You know, I just, you know, I'm like, just that eagerness makes me nervous. Just lay that thick, thick relational foundation because any kind of profitable theological conversation, profitable, you can have a theological conversation. It won't be particularly profitable if there's not this relational collateral that you've built with the

person you're talking to. And I've often felt it helpful to let the person lead the theological conversation when they're asking the questions, when they're like, okay, so what does the Bible say? I mean, typically that won't happen unless they feel like they're in a safe relational space where if they give a wrong answer, if they don't have the right answer yet, they know that's not going to break the relationship, but that might take time to lay that collateral down. Anyway, I'm glad to hear because you're affirming what I've been saying, but it's so helpful for me to hear you affirm it because you've been on this journey and you know i do wonder if there's a generational thing here too because i found that everything you said and what i've said is seems to ring very true with people kind of under 30 ish and sometimes it's hard for

people my age or older i'm 40 i just turned 47 yesterday um to i I don't know, it's harder for us to do that, to delay a theological conversation because this is so important, right? It's God's word. It's not about diminishing the importance of God's word. It's about creating a place where somebody could actually receive, right? And see the beauty in God's word. But no, that's super helpful. Brett, can I return back to your mental health journey? How I would imagine, Enneagram 4s, you guys have it really hard. I know several and your story is not too different than I feel like most Enneagram 4s I know,

which is sad to me. What advice would you give? What would you say to somebody who has heard your mental health journey and is really resonating with a lot of that? Like how – I almost want to say how do you fix it? How do you solve this? Or is that even the wrong question? Or how do you walk with Jesus while wrestling with sometimes

very severe mental health issues that you did not choose to be a part of your journey? Yeah. I think it was like three weeks after I got out of the hospital, I was slated to teach. And they said, you can teach if you want, but there's no pressure. And I thought, I'll teach. Let me see. I'll just find something. And I remember I was flipping through the Bible, just asking the Lord, like, okay, what do you want to say to these kids? And also don't, it's not for me. It's for these kids. Don't talk to me because I don't really want to talk to you right now. came across the story of Lazarus, I was just reading it because I had never really sat down and read through it, nor had I really ever paid attention to Mary and Martha and their

point of view in the story. And just found it really incredible that these people who were, it really incredible that these people who were, they didn't just know Jesus, they were friends with Jesus, saying, we know the Lord of the universe, surely He, and He loves us, surely He will come and heal our brother. And I found myself reading that thinking like, that's what I've been saying this whole time. I know the Lord of the universe. Surely he will come and heal me. And reading and then, and Jesus doesn't come. He hears and he doesn't come. And he says he's going to stay a few more days in the town that they're in. And just thinking like, like, Jesus, you jerk.

Of course you're going to, like, you did this to them. You're doing it to me. And then just came to the the the part of the story where the sister runs out and she's like if you would have been here my brother wouldn't have died and how heavy that must have been and then when jesus like goes goes into the house and warns with them, it says, Jesus, and Jesus wept, thinking, like, why are you weeping? First of all, like, you could have showed up. You could have been there. Then you didn't.

But you also know you're going to raise him from the dead. So why are you weeping? Why are you wasting time? Like, get into the grave and get this guy up. wasting time, like get into the grave and get this guy up. And just feeling like the Lord said, Brenna, I am not a glorified superhero. Like I don't just come in, fix the situation and leave. I desire to have a relationship with you and to be with you. And what you haven't realized is every day that you prayed for me to heal you, you did not ask me to be with you. And what you haven't realized is every day that you prayed for me to heal you, you did not ask me to be with you. And I just want to be with you. And I know that the future

of my mental health was unknown and is unknown. But I remember reading through that and then going back to the Israelites in the wilderness saying, like, why can't we just collect manna once on Monday morning and then have it for the week? And how the Lord was like, you have a need and I want to commune with you. And realizing this is the worst thing I have ever been through, but I believe in the Lord and I have missed the fact that God wants to be with me. Like I love in Psalms when it says like, even if you make your bed at the gates of hell, I will be with you. Because I always think it's like this will like rescue me. And there's something so wildly beautiful that I know when I die, I will be made whole. So maybe I won't be made whole now.

But even in that maybe not, Christ wants to be with me. He wants to sit next to me at the gates of hell. And, and, um, and so realizing like, okay, the Lord is so good that in the brokenness of this world, he has made, um, he, the goodness in that I struggle with bipolar is that I now have the thing that the enemy meant to destroy me that now will allow me to be dependent on the Lord every single day. And I know at the end of my life, I will be made whole. And so I think just this, as hard as it is, realizing that maybe you'll be healed, maybe you won't until because you will be made healed when you see Jesus face to face. That there is a wildly beautiful communing with God that we can step into in the midst of our pain and our suffering. And it's not a stepping out of your pain or stepping out of your suffering.

It's God stepping into it with you. And you will come to know the Lord in a way that you have never known Him before. And I look at my life and who Jesus is. On the other side, I am so thankful that the Lord allowed me to suffer in the way that I did, because I would not know the Lord the way I know him now if I didn't. So the Lord being with you doesn't necessarily take away the struggle, all right? But it cultivates hope that there will be resolution in the end, whether or not that resolution breaks into the now, it will be there in the end. So that, I mean, in the last five years, how has your mental health journey been? Has it been ups and down or has it been a lot better or

worse or? Yeah. I mean, I, I had, after that I ended up having two kids and it's interesting. I have heard more recently, a lot of women, especially women who have a lot of kids will say I had a lot of kids because I feel so good when I'm pregnant or all the hormones and all those things. And so I ended up going off with the help of my doctors, going off medication, literally, I think it was April of the pandemic. And I've been off. And I don't want to say that as it being like the ultimate goal of someone who struggles with mental health, because I might have to go back on mental health medications. And if that's the best thing for me, that is the best thing for me. But these last, I think it might be almost three years or three years, I don't know, have been for the most part,

three years or three years, I don't know, have been for the most part, really, really, really good. And I think another thing that's part of that is before that, I always thought I want to get married. I want to have kids and I just want to be a stay at home mom. And then I went to school and I realized how much I love work. And then I thought, well, I can't really work because I do ministry, but there's not a huge need. And then the Lord said, well, there kind of is, and has given me things to do. And so, yeah, it's been, there have been difficult moments, but for the most part, it's been a really, really good last three years. Okay. Wow. Something we haven't even talked about, if you don't mind talking about it, because I know it can be a hot button issue. But I mean, you are in what some people might, do you like the phrase mixed orientation marriage? I don't know if you use that phrase. Some people like it, some people don't. I think there was like another video that you and I probably both know that kind of blew up about those sayings. And I don't, I don't hold a lot of weight. It's like, I'm married and I don't

really care. How I mean, because some, you know, it can be like, so I know, I know one, a friend of mine who's same sex attracted. He's a guy's's married to a woman they have three kids i think um and i remember he he gave like a a breakout session at a sexuality conference that i think was most like largely affirming um and it was on mixed orientation marriages and he said it was it was intense kind of hostile because and i and i think that and i and i i can only imagine that in some circles um marriage to the opposite sex has been held out as kind of like this like i just just do it and it'll work out and it'll fix you and you know your same-sex attraction will go away and this is god's design so i think there's been a kind of a selling point maybe in some circles that

yeah has left a bad taste in people's mouth. So whenever, for some people, whenever they hear about a mixed orientation marriage, they kind of have this, it's almost like a trigger, like they assume that it's being like held out as this is for everybody, this would work for everybody. Can you, for somebody who, I mean, there's a lot of same-sex attracted gay Christians that listen to this podcast, you know, some might be committed to celibacy. Some might be in a mixed orientation marriage for lack of a better term. Some are affirming. Yeah. Can you talk about when people ask about like, how does that work? And is this for everybody? And you know, is this even possible? Like how do you, when people ask you

about your marriage, what's your response? Yeah. So I think the thing I found myself saying most is like, don't pray or like ask God for marriage, like talk to God about marriage. Because I think when we're like, when we tell people to pray for your future marriage or whatever, it becomes this ultimate goal that has never been. That's not how marriage has ever been presented. That's not how marriage has ever been presented. And when I was in YWAM was when I kind of, I think I received clarity about the function of marriage and marriage being ministry and a partnership with people. And yes, there are things like sexual attraction matters. And so it wasn't, for me, why I didn't like say commit to vocational singleness is because I felt like maybe there will be someone someday that I fall in love with. I don't know.

And if I say fall in love with, I don't, that's really cliche. But someone who I have a desire to spend the rest of my life with. And Austin, I met him when I was 14, actually. And he was, ended up being a youth leader at the youth group I went to. And so I knew him by proximity, but really didn't know him well. And he wrote me a letter of encouragement while I was doing Youth With A Mission. And we just never stopped writing each other after that. And I remember thinking, man, this guy's really become my best friend, but I'm not physically attracted to him. I don't really know. So it

just like, doesn't feel possible because I can't will myself. And I really do think same sex attracted people, like a mixed orientation marriage can be risky, especially when like that part doesn't come. And so I just kept having an open conversation with Austin and with the Lord and kept saying, okay, Lord, I would love to marry my best friend. I would love to spend the rest of my life with Austin. I would love to raise kids with him. I'd love to do ministry with him, but I can't be faithful in the sex part of our marriage. Like if this doesn't work for me and that's, it's not everything that marriage is about, but it's an important part.

And so I just kept having an open conversation with the Lord and felt like over time I gained attraction to him. felt like over time I gained attraction to him. And I don't say that as like, if you pray, you will gain attraction to the opposite sex. Like, I just think that was what the Lord had. And, um, and like marriage, it didn't, it did not make me straight. Like I've, I've had significant seasons of, um of struggling with temptation. And it's been like really amazing to have a partner who I say partner, and then I sound like a liberal straight woman. But to have a husband who like understands that part about me,

but is like faithful to remind me that the Lord is enough. And I, and so it's just nice. I don't know that it's never really been a secret in our marriage in that it didn't feel like something that was forced, but I like, I, I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of other same sexsex attracted people who are saying, I'm kind of interested in this person. I don't really know. My advice usually is, okay, this sexuality and sexual attraction matters. It's not everything, but I do think it matters. And if you marry someone that you physically don't want to be with, that is a red flag to me. And I think that's something you need to like wrestle with maybe for sure with the Lord, maybe in counseling, if you feel like you want to go there, but it's not, I don't think people need to get married to be fixed. And I also don't think

like, I think the Lord is faithful to people who remain same sex attracted throughout their life because he has been. Yeah. That's awesome. That's a great response. And it's one that like so many of my friends who are in a similar marriage situation would say. I think a big one is don't, if you are, if you do feel, I mean, marriage is a calling. I mean, we have such a secular view of marriage of just like you fall in love with somebody and it's kind of like now we can have Christian moralized sex. And if I ask young people, are you going to get married? Like, why? It's like usually it's a really theologically anemic response.

And no shame. I mean, I didn't have any kind of theology of marriage going into my marriage. I didn't have any kind of theology of marriage going into my marriage. But yeah, but all of my friends say that like I didn't go in expecting to have some miraculous like opposite sex attraction. But most of the ones I know that have healthy marriages, they said I unexpectedly did develop a – I mean, call it – maybe not even sexual, but just a holistic kind of attraction to my spouse even though i still had same-sex attraction in the world out there i had this kind of unique um love and bond to my spouse that i didn't expect it didn't include maybe some romantic or sexual attraction um but it was they always describe it as in more holistic terms this

relational agape love bond that I had with my spouse and admiration that I had for them as a person, this partnership we have as a ministry team or whatever, what was kind of the foundation that drove this bond that I had with them. So I know you got kids to go attend to. One last question. Can you explain your pretty ba uh neck tattoo to us so i it looks like a butterfly with almost like an iron maiden kind of skull going on

in the middle so there's something in depth going on here uh can you explain it to us yeah i um maybe i know i'll make some people upset it doesn doesn't have any meaning. I just like it. It is a moth and there is a big, big skull in the middle of it. I love skulls. People, I've like had interesting reactions because I have a few other skulls tattooed on me and people are like, I know you love Jesus, but I just feel like skulls are evil. And I'd say, well, man, there's so much beautiful imagery surrounding skeletons and skulls and new life in the Bible. And so that's what it is to me. But for me to say that's why I got this would be a lie.

My dad used to take me to look at motorcycles growing up. And so I just have always had this profound love for traditional tattoos and just have wanted to be covered in them. Really? My entire life. So that's what my husband's, you know, well, that's the joke is every time I speak, if I get a stipend or I get an honorarium, then it goes to my little tattoo budget. But I don't tell people that too often because I think it might make people upset. I won't tell anybody. The butterfly in school does have kind of a contrasting symbolism,

at least in our society. So it could have a lot of deeper meaning if you wanted to milk it. It's funny. I have a few tattoos, not many. I would lean more towards – I would probably cover my body. I don't know. Some days I'm like, no. And other days like, yeah, why not?

Let's just go for it. But I'm getting kind of old. So when you do an old age, it's a little like – you look like a try hard. But the one that I really wanted and I don't think I will get is a depiction of Ezekiel 37, the Ezekiel breathing over the dry bones. And so you have this graveyard coming to life. So very, very, I mean, tons of skeleton skulls. I mean, it could be, again, it really very much could be right on the cover of an Iron Maiden album. But that's been like a profound passage and even just theological theme for me, just this graveyard of Israelites and God is breathing life into them and they're coming alive.

And that whole like the spirit giving life in that passage underlies so much of New Testament theology. So really rich, rich theological symbolism. But I could eat if I got it, I could easily join a biker gang and they would, you know, fit right in. So, yeah, I of a win-win. Brenna, thank you so much for the chat. Really appreciate you. And yeah, keep doing what you're doing. We'll keep you up in our prayers.

Oh, you have a book you're working on. And I want people to be able to find you. I know you're really active on Instagram and you have great content there. So yeah, where can people find you and tell us just briefly about your book? Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram. Uh, it's at bun on my head. I don't, that will just always be my handle, but you can search Brenna Blaine, Blaine, uh, B L A I N. I'm the only Brenna Blaine in North America. So it's pretty easy to find me spelled that way. So without an E at the end. And I am writing a book

called, Can I Say That? How Unsafe Questions Lead to the Real God. And throughout my time of ministry and just whatever experience in life, I've found that the overwhelming consensus is that questions, doubts, and suffering serve as an off-ramp to faith in people's lives. But when I look at what I've gone through, I think that when we lean into them, they unveil the person of God deeply to us. And so the book is kind of saying, hey, progressivism is saying, burn it to the ground, and legalism is saying don't you dare say this out loud. But I think God is standing in the middle saying, let's walk on a journey that will look radical to people on both sides, but will come out the end with a deep sense of knowing who God is and knowing how to voice our unsafe questions

out loud in community and walking through them. So it's really meant to be not necessarily an answer to deconstruction, but to step into the spaces of deconstruction with the space construction with maybe a voice that hasn't really been elevated in those spaces. And so I'm really excited. It will probably, I'm working on it right now. So we've got some time, but if you join me on Instagram, there's regular updates on there. And so I'm really excited to, to be putting that out. Great. Thanks so much, Brenna. Yes. Thanks for having me. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.