Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1045: Should Christians Smoke Pot? Dr. Todd Miles

Episode Date: January 26, 2023

Todd is a professor of theology and the director of the master of theology program at Western Seminary in Portland, OR. He has an MDiv from Western Seminary and PhD from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Todd is the author of several books including his recent book Cannabis and the Christian: What the Bible Says about Marijuana, which forms the topic of our conversation If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!

Hello, friends. Registration is now open for next year's Exiles in Babylon conference, and I cannot wait for this conference. Here's a few topics that we're going to wrestle with. The future of the church, disability in the church, multi-ethnic perspectives on American Christianity, and a conversational debate on the problem of evil and suffering. We have Eugene Cho, Elise Fitzpatrick, Matt Chandler, Michelle Sanchez, Justin Gibney, Devin Stalemar, Hardwick. The list goes on and on. Joey Dodson's going to be there. Greg Boyd and Clay Jones, they're going to be engaging in this conversational debate on the problem of evil and suffering. And of course, we have to have

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All right, friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Todd Miles. Todd is a professor of theology and director of the Master's of Theology program at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon. He has an MDiv from Western Seminary and a PhD from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is the author of several books, including his most recent book, Cannabis and the Christian, What the Bible Says About Marijuana, which forms the topic of our conversations that has to do with should Christians smoke pot? Now, that's a really narrow way of framing the question, but we do talk about all things related to Christians and cannabis use. And so this conversation will spark some responses from

my audience, some positive, some negative, some maybe somewhere in between. And I really enjoyed Todd's gracious and thoughtful approach to a very controversial topic. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Dr. Todd Miles. Todd, thanks so much for being on Theology on Raw. It is great to be here, Preston. I can't think of too many more raw questions than, you know, should Christians smoke pot or however you want to word it. I'm curious, what led you to want to write this book? I mean, there's got to be some kind of backstory to this. Yeah, really pastoral need more than anything else. Washington, which is, of course, right

across the Columbia from Portland, legalized recreational marijuana before Oregon did, actually. Actually, a number of years before. So I always delight in telling my Washington friends that you guys are more progressive even than Oregon. Like the day or the day after it was legalized, even before you could get it, you know, because there's usually a run up of some months. We had a member of our church come to us, the elders and pastors, and ask, hey, now that it's legal, would it be okay if I went across the river and bought, consumed? And we realized that the typical answer of no, because it's illegal, it didn't apply anymore. And we actually had to start thinking like Christians, start thinking like Christians, you know, what would be a good response? And so, I put together a few thoughts, and to force myself to put together some thoughts, I had been asked to speak at a pastor's conference I did annually on theological or ethical hot topics that pastors

needed to be thinking about. So, I committed to doing something on marijuana, and when I presented there on it, like, everybody showed up. It was supposed to just be a breakout session, but it was actually a preliminary session. Everybody was there. And then I, you know, because of that, like, there's not a lot out there for Christians on how to think about this. And so, just because that one thing, I started being asked to speak to churches and men's groups and youth groups and radio and that sort of thing. And then I eventually added a medical marijuana component to it as well, because those are, I think, two very different issues with different kinds of wisdom questions that need to be asked. And yeah, so that was it. That was the genesis,

the origin story. We'll get to your, I do want to alter, I want to linger on kind of like what is the biblical case for and or against recreational, I guess, you know, so you said there's kind of two different things. So I guess we didn't have like a medical marijuana conversation and then a recreational conversation. But for, so, and I'm coming at this in full disclosure. I mean, I know very, very little about the conversation. I couldn't describe to you what marijuana even is or, you know, whether it's good for you, bad for you, addictive, not addicted.

I know very little. So I'm coming in with a blank slate. Back in college, I got high maybe half a dozen times. I wasn't a huge pothead at all. I was an athlete, so those two didn't really go together. Although I'm hearing that they go together very well now apparently. So some very minimal personal experience with it. But yeah, so I'm coming as a learner. Can you tell us

about maybe the chemical? I know your first couple of chapters in your book, you talk about just kind of the, what, what is cannabis marijuana? Give us maybe a one-on-one medical or a chemical overview of it. Yeah. And, and, and I think the reason this is a good question, if you'll let me just kind of launch off for, for just a moment, The reason it's a good question is because the Bible really doesn't say anything about marijuana per se, explicitly. And so, yet I believe the Bible is sufficient. We've been given all the divine words that we need, not necessarily all we might want, but certainly all the divine words that we might need. And so, how do we apply the truth of Scripture to something that's not in the Bible? And so, in order to do that, we need to ask the very question that you asked. What is marijuana? How does it work? And the cannabis

plant, highly complex, a number of psychoactive components to it. The one that's in highest demand is THC, tetrahydrocannabinol. And then after that, probably CBD. THC is, well, it's quite a wonder because it's difficult to classify. It's both a stimulant and a depressant. It works different ways with different components of the brain in the endocannabinoid system that really regulates

everything that makes us who we are. Mood, sleep, digestion, breathing. And what THC is, is it's a chemical that acts as what we call an agonist it it locks into this endocannabinoid system artificially and then duplicating something that our body is supposed to produce naturally but but thc does it are of course artificially it's it's introduced into the body um with a very powerful effect and so all of the different things that the endocannabinoid system would do, THC goes in and stimulates that system. And so all of the different things that we would associate with intoxication, of course, THC does that. It affects all different aspects of our brain and of our nervous system, bringing about both stimulating effects and, well, I guess I'd call them depressant effects as well. That's kind of how it works.

Just so I understand it correctly because, yeah, I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. So it's not necessarily introducing foreign – I don't want to say substance. It's a foreign substance. But it's not – it's stimulating something that's already happening in our body. And explain to us why that would be bad, I guess, if it's something that's not – Yeah. Well, and so we might ask, well, why do we call it the endocannabinoid system? And the reason is because we understood cannabinoids

before we understood what was actually going on in our body. And so, yeah. So, why might that be wrong or unhelpful? Well, I guess it would have to do with the effects that it brings about. And also probably from a Christian perspective, we would want to think about the motivation behind it. So, for example, in most of the brain, the THC will increase the tendency to fire, which causes an increase of dopamine levels. And, of course, who doesn't like dopamine? By definition, we all love dopamine because it allows us to love things, right? By definition, we all love dopamine because it allows us to love things, right? It brings about that pleasure, the feeling of pleasure or euphoria in a manner that is far more intense even than, say, sexual intimacy.

Really? Which most people would associate as the most intense dopamine rush that you could get. But THC will artificially stimulate greater firing that releases dopamine in other parts of the brain it decreases firing in like in the cerebellum which is responsible for our motor control so for most people when they're high they're they're really not at their, like, agile best, right? It does impede physical capacity. And then other reactions are associated. I'll list some negative ones. Memory loss, learning prevention, diminished problem-solving skills, increased heart rate often, weakened decision-making ability, we actually understand why now just from a brain

science standpoint, why, you know, there's like a lack of ambition that we typically associate with, you know, the stereotypical pothead, but we actually know why that is. THC interferes with the brain's ability to link past decisions with where you're at now and where you're at now with future outcomes. And so you're just kind of stuck in this moment. You can't connect the dots from where you were to where you are and from where you are to where you want to be. THC interferes with that. That's not to say that you walk by someone and inhale some secondhand smoke and suddenly you're frozen. But, you know, but but that's one of the effects. Is it so it sounds like there is a decent amount of overlap between getting high and getting drunk, getting intoxicated.

Is that is that a debate? I've often hear people just. Well, it is. But it's like, well, no, it's different. And then but then you're described the way you're describing it is like, well, there's at least quite a bit of overlap. I know it is a different chemical experience, but. Yeah.

And I think that's important to at least acknowledge it. It would be very poor hermeneutics, say, to just substitute pot for every instance of wine in the Bible. pot for every instance of wine in the Bible. Again, we have to understand maybe what the Bible says and also how THC, for example, would work. And it seems to me that the Bible, I'm pretty clear on this, or I'm pretty certain of this. It doesn't just seem to be. The Bible forbids intoxication. That's a sin. Yeah. Helpfully, the Bible doesn't just say, don't get drunk because God said so.

But the Bible actually describes why intoxication is wrong. And there's a host of Bible verses, a lot of them in Proverbs and the prophets that speak to drunkenness, it interferes with physical control. It diminishes your cognitive abilities. And maybe most damning is it diminishes your moral judgment. And I would argue, and I think you have to argue this, but I would argue that intoxication through THC, it has the same effects. And so for that reason, I'm comfortable arguing that the THC intoxication is sinful. I want to be careful in that because the last thing I want to do is say more than the Bible says.

I'm not interested in that. It's hard enough to do what the Bible says, let alone make up other stuff and heap that on our – burden our consciences with that. But because of why the Bible forbids drunkenness, and there's so much overlap in the effects of THC intoxication, that I'm comfortable saying, you know, just like the Bible forbids drunkenness through alcohol, I think we can apply that to THC intoxication that I'm comfortable saying, you know, just like the Bible forbids drunkenness through alcohol, I think we can apply that to THC intoxication as well. The same kind of effects that result from drunkenness, impairment of moral judgment, impairment of cognitive, physical, motor skills and stuff. There's a lot of overlap there. I often remember hearing growing up at least that while alcohol and nicotine is chemically addictive, that marijuana is not chemically addictive. I don't know where I heard

that. That seemed to be pretty widespread. Is there any truth to that or what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, no, there's not. Now, so here's a more accurate statement that the thc is not as addictive as nicotine caffeine certainly opioids that that sort of thing right uh alcohol um but but not as addictive is not the same thing as not addictive and and and if you're a regular user of cannabis, THC, and a regular user would use three to four times a week is typically how the clinicians describe it. About one in 10 adults will become addicted by medical standards. medical standards. And if you're a teen, about one in six, because the brain is still developing up into the early 20s for women, late 20s for men. How is addiction typically classified? Well, your brain is altered, you create an artificial dependence on it. And you make decisions that put yourself and others at risk in order to meet that need.

And so, yeah, about one in ten regular adult users, one in six teenage regular users. What about the – maybe not argument, the assumption, maybe it's an argument that, well, let me begin here. Some people say, you know, it's different than alcohol because you can drink a glass of wine to maybe over a period of a few hours, more than that, you know, and not get drunk. You can have wine, not even a buzz. You can have wine and just enjoy the taste of it. And, you know, it's not going to impair you at buzz if you can have wine and just enjoy the taste of it and it you know it's not going to impair you at all if you're if you're responsible whereas getting high it's either are higher you're not there's no kind of meat in between ground but i've heard people

question that or i've heard people say well it kind of depends on the person too or even you know for those of us who listen to joe rogan you, half the time he's smoking pot and he can't really – I don't know. He's still asking hard questions and you don't really – if he was just hammered, he would be like – he'd be slurring his speech or whatever. Yeah, walk us through that. Is there kind of a parallel smoking pot but not getting high as there is to drinking wine and not getting drunk? Or is it more complicated than that? Well, i think that the people want to argue that and and there is a real interest in in in what is called micro dosing uh where people take small amounts of thc usually through some sort of edible uh but but occasionally through through smoking it and the

argument is is that they like the way that it makes them feel. It takes an edge off. It's a small amount to where you're not experiencing those mind-altering effects in an intoxicating way. And I mean, I'm not going to argue that that's not a thing because it certainly is. It seems to me, this would be worth having a discussion, is that when people microdose, they're doing it usually for medical reasons, even if it's a statement like, I'm not quite as anxious if I'm microdosing, or it helps me sleep, or it helps me relax. There's me relax or you know there's a number of arguments for micro dosing where you're trying to get some of the benefit without the intoxicating negative effect now it with with almost all things

related to cannabis that there's there's very little actual evidence that micro dosing does bring about this the kinds of effects that people say that they're experiencing. But there's a lot of anecdotal evidence. People will swear by it. Cannabis users are very loyal to their product, more so than anything that I've ever seen. more so than anything that I've ever seen. So there is that argument out there. And at that point, what I usually like to do if I'm in a situation where I'm talking with someone, counseling, whatever, I like to ask the kinds of questions, the wisdom questions associated with the medical use of marijuana, because they're using it for reasons that we typically don't associate with recreational use.

And most people, and by most, I mean virtually everyone that I've ever talked to, you smoke pot recreationally to get that buzz, to get that high, the intoxicating effects of it. So just to, just to be clear, I guess, and maybe go to your conclusion, you would be morally okay with medical use of marijuana, but not recreational use. That might be a really simplified way of saying it, but is that, or I'll let you unpack where you end up landing and we can kind of get how you get there. Yeah. I mentioned earlier that the last thing I want to do is lay a burden on someone that the Bible doesn't actually lay upon them. And so what I try to do in the book and in the various things that I do with talking about marijuana is think about it in terms of discipleship and wisdom.

Okay. about marijuana is think about it in terms of discipleship and wisdom. And I think there are some wisdom questions that need to be asked about the medical use of marijuana. The same kinds of questions we should be asking about any prescription drug, quite frankly. There are side effects to every drug, and wisdom would dictate that we understand what those side effects are and there's a cost-benefit analysis associated with it. But I'm not opposed. This is hardly head-to-head news. I'm not opposed to mind-altering effects of drugs when taken for medical purposes. I mean, anytime you're anesthetized for some sort of surgery, that's about as mind-altering as you can get.

You're high as a kite. Yeah, I've never heard anyone argue, oh boy, you shouldn't be doing that. It's like, you know, hey, I'm going in for an appendectomy, just give me a bullet to bite on, right, and I'll be good. No, no one would argue. No Christian would argue that. I don't think so anyway. So going back, the microdose. So you're saying, in theory, microdosing small amounts of THC for somebody maybe suffers from anxiety, maybe they have back pain, they can't sleep, and then they can't sleep and then they can't sleep and that screws up their metabolism i mean lack guys we're all learning

now i think you know poor sleep just screws up everything including probably your spiritual like you're not on your top of your spiritual game and and it's all kind of interrelated so you're saying yeah in theory and i'd love i i would love to come back to that in a moment too yeah but sorry keep going yeah Yeah, no. So in theory, you're saying microdose, somebody is taking THC for that reason, then you would say that that would possibly fall into the category of actual wisdom. But if done for recreational, I'm still, I'll let you answer that. But then also like, where is that line?

That line could be kind of fuzzy. It could be, yeah. I don't think it's an easy question. Yeah, for medical purposes, I think we need to ask the same kind of questions that we would ask with any drug. And if you're microdosing, then you're not getting those mind-altering effects. And then none of those biblical prohibition on intoxication reasons apply. So it's like CBD, for example. CBD is technically mind-altering, but it doesn't intoxicate you. I mean, caffeine is mind-altering, right?

Okay, yeah. intoxicate you. I mean, caffeine is mind-altering, right? Okay, yeah. Yeah, and I don't have a problem with people using CBD from a pastoral standpoint. You know, it's expensive, and I'm not sure that it works the way that everyone says that it does. And so there might be some stewardship issues that we would want to talk, that might raise some concerns. But CBD is, it is psychoactive, just like caffeine is psychoactive, but it's non-intoxicating, just like caffeine is non-intoxicating. And so I'm not concerned about that from a Christian discipleship or pastoral standpoint, right? If someone came to me and said they were using CBD, I'd go, well, you're spending a lot of money, but if it works, I hope so.

So I know very, all I know i know is that yes exactly what you said cbd that doesn't get you high comes from the same plant can you unpack that a little more so that so so the cannabis plant hat contains two two distinct chemicals cbd and thc is that the way to frame it or how should i think through it far more than two oh more than two but but but but thc and cbd are the the components of choice right now. Those are the ones that growers are focusing on. They're increasing THC levels in cannabis. They're growing different strains for that.

Or they're seeking higher CBD levels. And they tend to work opposite. Like the higher the CBD level, the lower the THC level and vice versa. Both are technically psychoactive, but CBD is not intoxicating. And CBD, heavens, you can buy it everywhere where CBD is allowed. There's some states that still don't allow CBD. Why not? What's the logic? Or is there not really much states that still don't allow CBD. Why not? What's the logic?

Or is there not really much logic why they wouldn't allow it? Perhaps a stigma associated with cannabis. Perhaps for strategic purposes, thinking that as soon as we allow CBD, then we're going to have to allow THC for medical purposes. And once THC for medical purposes is allowed, then recreational use is right around the corner. And that sounds like a slippery slope argument, but that's actually the articulated strategy of the marijuana industry. So there's some reason why people might be concerned about that. I mean, I'm not concerned about CBD. CBD is a mind-altering drug,

non-intoxicating. Okay, so I'm going to say something that's going to deeply offend CBD users. I'm going to be an equal opportunity offender here. I think that CBD is like the essential oils of the cannabis industry. It's not obvious to me that it works. That is, there's just not a lot of clinical evidence that CBD does everything that CBD is supposed to do. Now, it does do some things very helpfully, and I think we should thank the Lord for this good provision. There have been a couple of drugs that have been isolated that have been very helpful for certain pernicious kinds of epilepsy that have just been lifesavers, especially for

young children. But you would think that CBD and THC are panaceas. I mean, the literature out there, which I would classify as more propaganda than scientific literature, will argue that it cures cancer, diabetes, glaucoma, and there's just no evidence for that. But it does have some proven benefit, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that people are convinced that it helps them with their pain management, like chronic pain. Mood? Is it mood too? Yeah, especially CBD, I would say. people think and argue from their experience that they function better when they're using CBD. I can't, heavens, it's really hard when we're talking about

psychoactive drugs to pinpoint exactly what the effect is. So you're saying there's minimal clinical evidence for a lot of the proposed benefits of CBD? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think as a Christian, we need to understand that. And heavens, I'm the last person that's going to argue, hey, we need to follow the science and whatever CDC says is true, right? I think we've all been disabused of that at this point post-COVID. Right. But but there is something to scientific evidence cannabis is still illegal at the federal level. So that might be one reason why the science is lagging behind the anecdotal evidence. I've got a few friends that swear by CBD. It's all the things you said is proposed to work it

they say it does i i thought that was more again i haven't looked at it at all i just assumed maybe i assumed that all that had been kind of clinically proven and anecdotal evidence is hard it could be true could be different personality different persons has a better effect than others could could be a placebo effect you know we know that that is theoretically very possible somebody believes something to be true and that even and it could actually the the mind is so powerful right i mean you can the placebo effect is not i think it's a testimony to the power of the mind you know um yeah so you said this in your book and it blew me away so i did not know this that cannabis is still illegal on a federal level but not on a state level according to multiple states.

I guess I don't understand our government system how that works. Yeah, it's a Schedule I drug, which is – the argument for it being classified as such is that it has no proven medical benefit. And of course, that's just not true because there are a number of drugs that have been isolated from THC for increased appetite, for nausea suppression. There's plenty of evidence on that. And so I'm not a big proponent of THC use. I'm not a big proponent of it being legalized. But there's really no reason why it should be outlawed at the federal level based on that classification when we know that it does have medical benefit. Yeah. Okay.

Most of the presidential administrations, Biden administration, Trump administration, have basically said we're not going to prosecute something that a state is not going to prosecute. So it's really kind of a toothless prohibition. Well, let's go back to the Bible then. And you've kind of hinted at it already. The Bible clearly prohibits intoxication. And you're saying there's enough overlap between intoxication with THC as with alcohol and therefore the Bible would prohibit intoxication with THC. Is that, would you say that's the number one or only biblical argument or the main biblical argument against Christians

using marijuana for recreational use? Yeah. Well, that, that, and, and, and the addiction possibility, uh, you know, to, if, if, if we enslave ourselves to, to something else, um, and, and I would, would also argue that the Bible just explicitly prohibits addiction. Um, but, but even from a discipleship standpoint, if, if, if I have altered my mind in such a way, like I've almost rewired is what takes place in addiction to the point where I'm making unwise decisions to meet that need that I've artificially introduced, and I'm putting myself and others in harm's way, then I think we could argue that's probably not the kind of behavior the Lord wants from us. Yeah. I was going to say, what's the best counter argument to your position? You've

probably been in many environments where you've had some people give counter arguments. From a biblical or Christian standpoint, what would be the number one? If you're going to play devil's advocate against yourself, what would that look like? Yeah, I would probably argue that intoxication through THC is different enough that the biblical prohibition does not apply. I would probably argue that alcohol intoxication, though it could vary a little bit from person to person, it doesn't vary that much. We can predict intoxication levels based on body mass and that sort of thing from alcohol. who are the same size and gender smoking the same pot, inhaling the same amount of THC from the same joint, and the effects on them will be radically different.

It's just really hard to quantify. And so I would probably try to make the argument that, well, the kind of argument that I hear a lot that I don't have a lot to say in response to is, hey, you know, you've said that THC intoxication causes, uh, cognitive diminishment, physical capacity, diminishment, moral judgment. But I, I actually think better when I'm high. I went through my whole college career and, and it was my strategy to always be high when I walked in and took a test because I could just think better when I was high. And at that point, I would say, well, blessings on you. Be warm and well-fed. I got nothing to say to you on this. A lot of times, and, you know, pastorally, you've probably heard this a lot, too. I'm the exception to what you're saying.

Hey, Todd, you made a really good biblical case, but that doesn't apply to me. Very few people are actually the exception. We're usually just lying to ourselves when we say, hey, I get what the Bible says there. I understand what you're arguing, but that doesn't apply to me. I'm the exception to that rule. So could it be in theory that this could be a case-by-case basis that if there is – even if it's like one person that doesn't experience the intoxicating effects of THC use and maybe it does even enhance creativity thinking that this person's at your church, Todd, and all the evidence says, you know what, in this case, they're right. Would you say, all right, then keep smoking pot, I guess? I don't know. Yeah. Well, so the thing that I would argue or suggest at that point is, hey, well, let's just

do it with accountability then. And then there's a host of other discipleship concerns that we would want for that person to be thinking about. Weaker brother, causing others to stumble, example, that sort of thing. But if a person, if someone came to me, if,this is really not an if—came to church leadership and said, hey, I just have a hard time sleeping. Yeah. And what has worked for me is to smoke a joint, and then I'm able to go to sleep immediately. And if I don't sleep, then there's other things that are bad that you even described. My wife is behind me on this. It's okay with her. There's no other kids in the home or anything

like that. And I want you to know that this is what I would like to do, and I would like your blessing on it. Well, if someone came to me and said that, then I would say, hey, I deeply appreciate that you want to do this with accountability. And that individual is definitely using for what I would argue medical purposes at that point. You know, their goal is not to get high because they're like smoking and then going straight to sleep. So on that kind of case-by-case basis and then maybe ask some of those wisdom questions that are associated with the medical use yeah yeah you reminded me of a few several years ago really solid christian couple it was exactly that scenario i think i

think there was like an injury involved like chronic back pain or something and yeah um he wasn't trying to hide it it was uh it was exact it was almost maybe talking about the same person i don't think so it's different parts of the country but um it was yeah it's yeah he would smoke a joint three or four nights a week whatever no wife knew it wasn't around the kid it was like i checked off all the boxes where it's like okay you know so you're saying because that's in more of the medical side, what about the kind of, I guess, the other categories of addiction, the physical? I guess it is a tradeoff, right? Because, again, if you're struggling for lack of sleep, you're going to have lots of other health problems that that's going to cause.

And maybe even smoking a joint to help you go to sleep, that might have other health issues. But it's kind of a trade-off. Yeah. And I think that's where you need to have those discussions and think about what those trade-offs might be. But I would also argue that we should be having those discussions with any drug that we take, right? We're in the middle of an opioid addiction epidemic right now. We're in the middle of an opioid addiction epidemic right now. Maybe one of the benefits of the medical marijuana discussion is that there are a lot of people, probably especially Christians, who there's a stigma attached to marijuana use. And so maybe somebody comes to them.

It might even be a doctor. But a friend says, hey, you're really struggling with back pain or whatever or anxiety. Why don't you try cannabis? Right. And because there's a stigma attached to it, we ask, man, just because it was suggested by a doctor, I'm not sure this is the right thing for me. I think that's a good mindset. We should be asking those kinds of questions with every kind of drug, right? What if we had been asking those questions about opioid use for chronic, not acute, but chronic pain? I mean, how many people are addicted to opioids who just were seeking some relief? You know, they weren't going out in the street corner looking for the next high. They were suffering, and a doctor gave them something that they know works, right? Opioids

are really powerful for pain. And then some other considerations on this as well is that for pain. And then some other considerations on this as well is that suffering is mind-altering, right? And so there's a trade-off there. I'm suffering intensely, and that is mind-altering in a way that all of these other discipleship questions, can I take every thought captive in obedience to Christ? Am I maximizing my ability to use my gifts? Am I loving the Lord with all of my heart, soul, strength, and mind? You know, all these kinds of discipleship questions. If you are suffering, those capacities are diminished as well. And I think that has to be part of the equation as well.

And so, yeah, there's going to be some tradeoffs for any kind of drug that we would take. Just come with all the warning labels. One big one is that THC, people will say that it's effective in fighting this malady that you're experiencing, relieving this suffering. But that's just anecdotal evidence. And then all of the other bad effects, those are going to apply for medical use or for recreational use. You know, marijuana is marijuana. A lot of people, one of the first things they're surprised at when I talk to them about medical marijuana and recreational marijuana is they don't realize it's the same exact substance. There's no special drug called medical marijuana.

It's just pot, right? The difference is in the motivation and use of it, not in the substance. I know a couple of different people in my life, friends, that through edibles have had some really violent reactions, like really scary stuff. And I've heard that the level of THC in edibles can be all over the map, isn't really regulated. I think there's a comedian, maybe it joe joe rogan or bill burr so there's a comedian who kind of was even joking around like hey can you guys cool it with the edibles man you guys are filling these gummy bears with like but no i've had two very i mean i'm talking like police involved medical emergencies and stuff people were almost harmed is that is that is that more is that a thing that like edibles can cause these violent episodes?

Well, it's not edibles per se, but THC does this. And you were right that in an edible, you can increase the amount of THC, the percentages, to super, super high, no pun intended, levels. super, super high, no pun intended, levels. And, you know, so like 1960s marijuana might, you know, might've been like 1.5% THC, but now you can get in oils, you can get like 90s, really, really, really high levels. And most edibles use oils for their. And so, you know, it just if if you decide to use an edible, you would really want to know what you're buying. Now, one of the negative effects of THC, and I think this this has got to be publicized. We've got to get the word out on this, is that the mental illness linkage between THC use and mental illness, the evidence is growing abundantly all the time, to the point where I would just say, if you have a history of mental illness in your family,

if you have a history of mental illness in your family, if you have a genetic predisposition towards mental illness, avoid THC like the plague. What kind of mental illness? Are you talking about like chronic depression or bipolar anxiety? Yes. Yes. All of the above. All of the above. And which is pernicious because the advocates will say that it actually helps. It helps for anxiety. It helps for depression. It helps for various kinds of volatile behaviors that would grow out of mental illness. illness. And again, the effects on people will vary, but the linkage between earlier onset of mental illness, of fill in the blank, whatever kind, but especially bipolar. And as I said, that evidence is growing all the time. And we probably need to get the word out because

unfortunately, the exact opposite word is being propagated. And the evidence is just too strong to ignore at this point. Wow. Okay. You would think, hey, pot mellows you out. opposite effect because of just the very diverse nature of the components that are in THC and how it affects the endocannabinoid system. A lot of it's very idiosyncratic to where if there's like super violent, I'll say something that I can't back up with a specific study, but I've read stuff to this over and over and over again, that

anytime there's any sort of violent behavior that police are called into, it's not surprising at all that the person was high. And you would think, oh, it's the exact opposite because pot mellows you out, right? It does for most people, but not all. So going back to my friends with the edibles, because they had edibles before this was not like a one-time thing you're saying they probably got something that had super high levels of thc that was kind of missed um i don't know it was created wrongly or maybe personally because i don't even know you go buy a piece of cheesecake whatever at the pot store i don't know if any of that's correct but i I mean, like, how do you know how much stuff is in here?

You just don't, right? Well, it has to be labeled. Oh, okay. It has to be labeled if it's at a licensed dispensary. And so if you walk into a dispensary, you will see all of the different samples with the THC and CBD percentages right there. And so you can buy specific for that. And I would think that edibles would be the same in a state where it is legal and regulated.

Okay. Going back to the biblical argument and kind of playing devil's advocate, I personally don't know any other book that's like from a Christian perspective written on this topic. Are there others or is there a, what is the book written or who, is there anybody out there that is thoughtfully arguing?

Well, there's not a better book out there. Is there a, from a thoughtful Christian perspective arguing for recreational use or maybe taking a different approach than you? Well, yeah. And I can't remember the name of it, Christian perspective arguing for recreational use or maybe taking a different approach than you? Well, yeah. And I can't remember the name of it, but you could probably do an Amazon search. But there's at least one that I read where they were very pro-use. There are a number of websites out there where people argue for the spiritual benefits of marijuana, that cannabis or THC can act as what's called an entheogen, where you take a mind-altering drug that then kind of unlocks

the brain to experience different spiritual mysteries and that sort of thing. There's not any Bible, it seems to me, that supports the idea of an entheogen. You know, the response I usually give is that we're to meditate on the Word of God, and that Hebrew word for meditate is chagah, and it literally means to mutter over. We're thinking about something so hard that our lips are moving as we think about it. We're filling our mind with the Word of God and thinking intentionally hard on it. That's what biblical meditation is. But that's not what an entheogen enables you to do. and enables you to do. Yeah, so it doesn't seem to me, as I read through the scriptures, that there's any good biblical argument for the use of mind-altering substances, except I think there's one verse in the Psalms that says, like, wine makes the heart glad.

Oh, yeah. And which that I would concede, I think we'd have to admit that there's probably some mind alteration that is taking place there that is being celebrated in the scriptures for that. I don't know any other way to think about what that verse means. I mean, I don't think it's like, boy, wine tastes so good, I'm happy right now. I think there's some sort of alcohol effect at work there that is celebrated in the Bible. So there's that one verse that we have to take into account.

I don't want to deny it. And then there's a whole bunch of other verses that speak against the dangers of the abuse of this drug. And so then the question is, is there a THC makes the heart glad kind of argument that could be used? And man, I just have a hard time seeing spiritual benefit. What seems to me happens, because there's lots of people who argue that they have been helped spiritually by THC. It seems to me that what's going on is there's usually some sort of chronic pain thing that is going on in their life that THC, for whatever reason, has given them some relief.

And because pain and suffering itself are mind-altering, I mean, we are created as psychosomatic entities, right? We're material and immaterial parts integrated together, that the material part of us affects the immaterial parts and the immaterial parts affect the material parts, that when you are relieved of some crippling suffering, that your spiritual life kind of takes off. And maybe that's what's going on. Maybe it's not that the pain is actually being addressed by the THC, but maybe you just are more mellow about it. You don't care as much. But maybe that's okay, even, right?

But maybe that's okay, even, right? It seems to me that when people have argued for the great spiritual benefit, most of the time there's been some sort of pain or suffering they're going through that they get some relief. And then they're able to experience a better relationship or, you know, better quiet times or whatever. Again, I don't want to argue with someone's experience. I would say, though, that the Bible treats suffering variably, right? To relieve suffering is a good thing in the Bible, but suffering is also used by God in very powerful and effective ways in people. And so, I guess what I usually say is that our culture cares far more about relief of suffering than the Bible does, if that makes sense. I mean, we will go to extraordinary lengths in our culture to avoid suffering. The Bible gives a more varied response to it.

No, that's good. I've often heard with the spiritual aspect more in relation to like psychedelics. Is that a completely different conversation from going from marijuana and THC to psychedelics? Or is there these, everything you're saying, would that apply to psychedelics? Well, it seems like it because I, you know, when I was doing the research for the book, I subscribed to at least one marijuana church or cannabis church where they would lead you in meditations. And it's very strange. It's like assume the lotus position, empty your mind, relax. And then the screen fills up with all sorts of these psychedelic colors. And it looks like I'm watching something out of the 1960s.

And then they instruct you to start consuming and relax. And they lead you on this meditation that not any Bible. It was very discouraging. You know, as I kind of watched what was going on, it's like, how is this justifiable from a biblical standpoint? I'm not hearing any Bible at all in this meditation. And no doubt, there might be some people who are listening who say, hey, well, that's not the way that I use it. And that's true, but that could be true. But your question about psychedelics brought that to mind. Well, I think, and I've heard from people that Christians and psychedelics in particular

is the next big, huge, huge ethical question facing the church because of the ongoing anecdotal evidence of people having these amazing encounters with God, you know, while eating shrooms or whatever. And, you know, it's... It sounds like Timothy Leary, doesn't it? It sounds like Ezekiel chapter one. And I have friends that have encountered... I have one friend that got saved while on an acid trip. Now, to me, that's not like an argument for it it's like

an argument that god can use all kinds of you know morally isn't god good yeah yeah i mean i don't think that's you know um but but there there are i i'm hearing more and more people saying purposeful use of psychedelics is actually um producing beneficial spiritual effects, you know? And, but I, yeah, I don't know. I don't know enough about it to have a strong. I'm skeptical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, one last question before I let you go.

I heard, because you're in Portland. So I know all the assumptions about Portland, but I've had pastor friends. Maybe it was actually Portland. He's either Portland I know all the assumptions about Portland, but I, I, I've had pastor friends. I, maybe it was actually Portland. He's either Portland or Seattle, of course. But, um, you know, saying like what drinking was to the church conversation, um, marijuana is now like, you know, 20, 30 years ago, you know, um, pastors would be like kind of sheepishly like, ah, yeah, I had a beer last night. Oh really? Is that okay?

You know? And now it's like elder meetings have like kegs at them, you know, it's like, it's not, it's just not a big, even in more conservative, I live in a pretty conservative town. It's like, I know hardly any pastor that doesn't, you know, we go out to lunch and have a beer. It's just not a big deal anymore. Do you see this conversation, the same thing happening with marijuana where now it's kind of like, oh, you hear about a Christian that smokes pot, another one over there. Gosh, my pastor said, you know, he had a joint last night.

And in 20 years, you see it being like, you know, elder meetings or hot boxing, you know, and it's just not a big deal anymore. Yeah, I hope not. I hope not. But I think that will probably be the case in some pockets. I am a bit concerned about alcohol in the church. Not the use of alcohol, because I believe that alcohol is a gift from God that is used in the scriptures, even in the liturgy of the church, that is used in the scriptures, even in the liturgy of the church, right? And so, I'm not going to make a strong statement against alcohol. Other than this, have we overreacted? Okay.

Has it become so common now that we're not making good judgments with it? Okay, so, and I'm concerned that that's the case. If that's the case with alcohol, where we have centuries of intentional use and we understand how it affects us, going from that to marijuana, where we don't have as much experience, especially in the church, The effects of marijuana are far more dramatic than with alcohol, and they affect you quicker. We normally don't think of, hey, I smoke pot in moderation, right? Or I just like a joint with my meal or something like that, right? That's not the way that people usually use,

but that would be a responsible use of alcohol, right? But we normally don't associate that with marijuana. So I hope we ask better wisdom questions, and we don't just assume. We don't just assume, hey, alcohol is a gift from God. Cannabis is a gift from God. I can use alcohol in moderation, so I can use cannabis in moderation. I think we have to think about how they affect us and make intentional decisions with them. And there is some overlap between marijuana and alcohol, but there's not complete overlap. They do affect us differently and more quickly and more idiosyncratically as well. So those are just a few thoughts. Well, Todd, thanks so much for your time.

I'll hold up for my YouTube watchers here your book, Cannabis and Christian. What does the Bible say about marijuana? It's a really quick read, 150 pages. And the pages aren't – there's not a lot of words on each page. So, I mean, it's, if you want a quick kind of overview of Todd's analysis, it's, I mean, again, it's a simple, easy read, but it's also very thoughtful. I mean, I can tell you did a lot of research for this. So thank you for your work.

Thank you for the discussion. And I hope more and more Christians have these kind of conversations because I do think it's going to be a topic of conversation more and more in our churches. So thank you for the work you're doing. Yeah. Thanks, Preston. I appreciate it. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.