Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1046: The Last 10 Years of the Church and the LGBTQ Conversation: Sam Allberry

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

Sam Allberry is a pastor, apologist, author, and speaker. He is the author of a number of books, including Is God Anti-Gay?; What God Has to Say About Our Bodies; Why Does God Care Who I Sleep With?; and 7 Myths about Singleness. In this episode, Sam and I reflect on the last 10 years of our engagement with the church and the LGBTQ conversation. Much has changed; some things haven’t. The church has been on a journey and so have we. Sam and I talk about areas where we have changed and where we think the conversation is heading. If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!

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Gold Level supporters get all of this and access to monthly Zoom chats where we basically blow the doors open on any topic they want to discuss. My patrons play a vital role in nurturing the mission of Theology in the Raw. And for me, just personally, interacting with my Patreon supporters has become one of the hidden blessings in this podcast ministry. So you can check out all of the info at patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. That's patreon.com forward slash TheologyNaraw. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of TheologyNaraw. My guest today is my friend, Sam Alberry, who is a pastor, an apologist, a speaker, and the author of many books, including Is God Anti-Gay? Why Bother With Church? Seven Myths About Singleness and What God Has To Say

About Our Bodies. He's written extensively for numerous organizations, including the Gospel Coalition, Desiring God, and Living Out. This conversation, we talk about Sam's second edition of his book, Is God Anti-Gay, which he published 10 years ago, and now he just came out with the second edition. So we talk a lot about what has happened in the times and in the church between the first edition and the second edition. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Sam Mulberry. Sam, thanks for coming back on. I think this is the second or third time on The Altar of the Rock. Yeah, it's lovely to see you again thanks for having me back yeah man i mean this is uh i yeah we we we keep in touch you know through email and and even got to hang out that one time in nashville which uh i think that was

the first and only time we've ever had a face-to-face right i think it was in the english pub in nashville the brit yeah uh yeah. So you might be offended at that pub because it's trying to be a British pub. It's, I like, so some of my listeners might know, I'm a huge, huge fan of the old hundred, you know, several hundred year old British pubs. Like there's something so nostalgic about that. Kind of like prancing pony vibes you know

um i love i love the hardwood i'll go around look at the nooks and crannies the vibe i just i love it that pub in nashville is not that but it it comes closer than most british pubs in america that i've seen at least it's a slightly british themed american bar bar. But I get what you mean. I miss being around old buildings anyway. They're not an abundance of them in Nashville, but I really miss country pubs, especially where the ceilings are sloping and there's not a single right angle in the whole building. I've been chatting with my pastor TJ here. I don't know if we're joking or being serious. I hope we're being serious about

we would love to open an English pub in Nashville just like a genuine English low ceilings old wood have a log fire have steak and Guinness pie on the menu that kind of stuff um this is such a convivial environment there's nowhere else like it over here are you I mean I've that's been a dream of mine that i think i will never execute because that's would take time and money and and resources or just just a a knowledge base that i don't know how to you know open a restaurant but that would be my dream i have no idea but i would just love to i just want to be at one so i know yeah oh man yeah i'm going to cambridge in a couple weeks um actually twice in the next few months.

And there's a few good pubs there. You know, the neighborhood and just the sense of community, like, you know, the neighborhood, the concept of a neighborhood pub where every it's almost like it's kind of like, you know, you know, churches are on a parish system wherever, you know, so so many blocks. There's a new church and it's almost like there's also a pub too but it has this community vibe like i remember i was eating dinner at one and some brit came up and looked at me and said what are you doing at my pub you know i'm like do you own it it's like no but this is my neighborhood and then do you did you move into the area it's almost like it was almost like i would get the same question like hey is this your first time at church you know and it just had this strong local community flavor and i'm like i don't there's no parallel in the states of something like that other than a church i guess and even even down to someone saying hey you're sitting

in my seat you know there's that sort of sense of you know i always sit there yeah yeah oh yeah it's kind of sweet that that's died out a bit in the uk but they're still particularly in the the sort of villages and smaller towns there's still a lot of that that idea where you would walk to your local pub. You might be walking there on your own, but you know you're going to see someone there because it's your local community. It's a kind of a sweet thing, a nice community hub. Yeah, I love it. So you wrote a book. I think it was your first book, Is God Anti-Gay? Was that your first one or did you have one before that?

It wasn't my first one, no, but I'd done done one or two things before then but it was the sort of first thing that sort of first thing that anyone read okay yeah and i mean it's still selling very well so that was back in i want to say 2012 2013 is that when it came out came out summer 2013 yeah okay and so for those who haven't if you've engaged the sexuality conversation, you probably have read it. But from my vantage point, if you haven't, if I could summarize it, it is the most, I would say, combining concision. It's a short book, 80, 90 pages or something. I mean, you can read it in a few hours. But it also didn't lack in depth and sophistication.

It's almost like I can't believe how thoughtful and in-depth this book was for being such a concise book. So for me, it is the go-to book. If you want a short introduction without it losing on the sophistication side, blending good. I mean, obviously, to me at least, you don't really sound theology with a really pastoral heart, weaving in your own experience. I mean, such a good book. I'm curious, and this is kind of what we both wanted to talk about because we both have been in similar spaces for about the same time. What have you seen that has changed in the conversation, specifically, let's just say the broader lgbtq ssa faith conversation in the last 10 years so so maybe taking as two bookends the first edition of your book and second edition of your book well that that's kind of why i decided to to redo the book is because i thought 10 years

is a is a natural kind of sort of you know know, milestone anyway. But I realised that the world was a totally different place in 2013. And you would have been doing some of your early drafts of people to be loved around that time or soon thereafter. It was a different situation. So enough has changed that I thought I needed to redo the book so that it would, I hope, Lord willing, be fit for purpose for the time that we're in now. The culture has changed around us. The questions people ask, I think, have changed in the last 10 years. I think the church has changed in some ways.

Some ways great. In some ways, I think, changed in an unhealthy way. So there's been a lot of things that have happened. It's been a busy 10 years just in terms of things moving forward, the conversation continuing to progress. The most obvious change is that, you know, back in 2013, gay marriage wasn't a legal thing in either the UK or the US. And that now feels like, you know, ancient history. So even that has changed um not that the book kind of

was written with you know that particular circumstance in mind but it's emblematic of how culturally things have moved so much since then so yeah lots of things have changed language has moved has changed a bit as well around this conversation. Some of the baggage with some of the language has changed. I think there's areas where the church is now much more healthy than it was 10 years ago. And there are pockets of the church, I think, that are less healthy. Because I think some of those cultural changes have made parts of the church very defensive, very angry, very fearful. And that has certainly affected the conversation around this whole area. But back at you, what have you seen? What are some of the headline differences you've noticed?

I mean, I would agree with all of that. I mean, I would agree with all of that. Things do feel even more polarized now in this kind of post-Trump, post-COVID era where everything was just so intensified, you know, and so... Do you mean polarized in the church kind of often mirrors and mimics various cultural movements, too. So when the culture has become so polarized, many churches have as well. And yeah, I have. So, I mean, there's a bit of confirmation bias in how I even analyze how things have progressed. in how I even analyze how the, how things have progressed because, you know, I'm going off of like my experience in, in many different churches denominations over the last 10 years, you know, speaking and, and working with churches and organizations. And I, I, and they've all, for the most part have been really positive and encouraging experiences, you know,

but that's confirmation bias because they, those churches invited me to come speak because they saw something in my approach that they valued. So it's, so I mean, I'm speaking about churches that already there's been some kind of resonance, but I'm, yeah, from 10 years ago when it was like, you know, trying to convince churches that, hey, you have LGBTQ, same-sex attractive people in your churches. This isn't an us-them conversation. Your posture can either validate or invalidate your theology and the importance of tone and posture and listening, not in spite of theology, but as an extension of your theology. I've often said your truth will not be heard until your grace is felt. So if you care about the truth, you know, then all the more need to embody the radical grace of Jesus. And again, that doesn't mean you're being soft on theology or soft on sin or whatever.

So all that to say, you know, LGBTQ people, Hey, they're people. And, you know, 10 years ago, I was like, Oh yeah. You know know and now it's just kind of like well yeah quite like people are already i think churches are not needing to be convinced of having both grace and truth but are wanting to explore we it's like okay we are already there we want more gay people in our church not less um how do we navigate holding to our theology and things like policy and leadership and all the nitty gritty on the ground questions of what that looks like? That's where churches are at. So the fact that I don't feel the need in almost every context, even really conservative context. I mean, I remember speaking at a church and some listeners

who are probably part of this church and they'll laugh, you know, in North Texas, which I'm told is the conservative part of Texas. And most people think Texas is conservative. And they said, no, we're, we're the, you know, I think they even said the county was like 75% voted for Trump in both occasions. And this was a conservative church with a lot of older people in it. So, I mean, all the stereotypes, I'm just like, oh my gosh, what am I getting myself into? And I talked to people that were 70, 80 years old, conservative Baptists that had huge, huge hearts for LGBT people

because they have grandkids that are coming out and they're like, I love my grandkid. And so I either needed to like lose relationship or figure out how to be, you know, have a better posture. And so, so all that to say, like, I, I, um, I've been really encouraged by how even very conservative Christians I think are, are really trying to embody the grace, truth, attention to Jesus. Now I know some people listen and they're like, oh, that's not my environment or whatever. So again, it's confirmation bias.

These are churches that have me come speak. But overall, I would say I'm encouraged by the growing number of churches that I think are approaching this conversation much better than churches have in the past. Yeah. And I would say I'm far more encouraged than I would be discouraged. Um,

those things are discouraging to me, but there's far more that's encouraging. And I think that 10 years ago when I was first being invited to speak on these things, it was often, can you help us understand what the Bible says? Cause we're still, you know, does it, does it really say what it, you know, we've, we've taken it to mean about same sex relationships. say what we've taken it to mean about same-sex relationships. So I found a lot of my time then was walking people through the kind of the pertinent biblical passages and saying, yes, it really does mean this. No one's asking that anymore. And I've restructured my book because of that.

But it's interesting. Now I think, and I have the same confirmation bias you do, most of the churches that are inviting me to speak, they already know what the Bible says. They just want to make sure that they are embodying the message of the Bible in a way that is, as you say, it's embodying grace and truth. There's a humaneness to the conversation. And I think part of that is because very few people now don't know someone who is identified as gay or describes themselves as same-sex attracted. This issue has come much, much closer to home than it would have been 10 years ago. People are more open. And, you know, the number of conversations I have now where it's, hey, my brother is gay or my son has come out to me or a really close family friend.

And I think for a lot of people, more than 10 years ago, they can put a face on the issue in a way that they couldn't before. And that always changes your kind of perspective somewhat. Yeah. your kind of perspective somewhat. Yeah. I think another key, something we haven't even mentioned yet, but a key change in the last 10 years is the trans conversation has almost...

Yeah. And I would almost trace it back to when... And there could be an interesting cultural conversation we could have here that I wouldn't be super comfortable being an expert on, but since 2015, the legalization of, of same sex marriage,

the, the older gay people I hear from, like in, in just broader culture, they're kind of like, we fought for this, like that, you know,

Andrew Sullivan's and Barry Weiss and, you know, other kinds of public figures. They're kind of like, this is, we fought 20 years for this, more, more than 20 years.

Um, society has changed. It's legalized it's legalized we're kind of good we're done but that has opened up space for i think the trans conversation culturally and and ecclesiologically to to kind of take front and center now you know i tell people we started our organization in 2017 and it was i would say most of the emails we're getting from people were questions about sexuality. And I would say a couple of years ago, the percentage is almost flipped to where now the majority of emails, questions from parents and pastors and leaders have specifically do with the trans conversation. And as you know very well, the T is quite different from LGB.

And sometimes, I still see people do it, and it's just the way it goes. But people use the acronym LGBT or LGBTQ+, as almost like a synonym for being gay. But it's like there is a serious overlap. And if you're LGB or T and you've had experience in the church, you're going to probably have similar experiences most of the time, not every time, but somewhat negative. But beyond that, the theological, philosophical questions

that the tea raises are quite different. And I think the church is starting to realize that. We can't just map our view of marriage onto the trans conversation. You've dealt with this conversation too. I mean, your last book dealt with embodiment, right? It did. Not as focused on the trans questions as yours did, but touching on it at least in a very preliminary way. And I agree with you. And in the UK, especially, there's stonewall split over that issue because the conversation there has been, from what I've picked up, people have formed what is now the LGB Alliance. that being lesbian, gay, bisexual is a matter of being attracted to a particular sex, not necessarily attracted to a particular gender identity.

And so there seems to be a bit of tension there between, you know, if you are gay, if you're a gay man and you won't date a trans man, you're being transphobic, to which some of the gay people have been replying, welllying well actually it's about being attracted to the same sex so it's that that's been interesting because again the that embodied nurse of biological sex is is an issue that for a lot of lgb people is is defining of their sexuality so there and there's some obviously some large overlap as well, but that, that's been a very interesting conversation just to listen in on going on in that part of the secular world. I'm curious because you do, you're on, you have one foot in both sides of the pond here. Um, from my vantage point, it does seem like just the broader cultural conversation around

trans stuff in the UK, it does exactly what you said. It does feel different than the US. So you can confirm that, that there is more, again, in the broader, quote unquote, secular world, there's much more public tensions, I would say, between LGBT or even like, you know, secular feminists and the trans conversation. Whereas in the States, I feel like, and we're 10 years behind the UK culturally, it seems like. So it still seems like people here just naturally lump it all together

and still feel like it's the LGBTQ community conversation and at least the tensions within some of the identities aren't as public. Would you confirm that? I think so, yeah. There's been a few things in the UK over the years that have sort of really put this issue front and centre. There's been a couple of high-profile cases where someone has been fired for not sort of being fully on board with trans kind of thinking and ideology and have, you know, appealed and it's gone to the courts.

It's been all in the news. appealed and it's gone to the courts it's been all in the news and there's there's been much more of a public conversation about trans rights within a secular community i mean jk rowling obviously has been a very prominent voice sort of saying trans rights need to be you know weighed alongside a whole host of other considerations so i think it's it's just been a more public, those kind of nuances have become more public, I think, in the UK. And even today, one of the big headlines as we have this conversation is that the Scottish Parliament had passed a new bill saying that you could change your gender identity as young as age 16. And uk government is as of today planning to overturn that and so that that's going to again catapult the conversation to the the kind of public consciousness you know

most people i think in the uk secular people are not against trans identity and the freedoms associated with that but are asking questions about know, is 16 really a mature enough age to make that kind of decision? Do we need more steps involved? So there's more of those kinds of conversations happening back in the UK than I've heard having kind of happening around here. Well, even, and this isn't my primary area, but I, you know, I dabble in, in sort of the, the medical approaches to teens identifying as trans or non-binary or gender fluid, the U.S. is notoriously very strongly gender affirming. Meaning if your gender identity or your internal sense of self is at odds with your biological sex, then to question that, not even question like, are you really? And to question that, not even question like, are you really, but like even to raise questions like, hey, talk to me about your life.

You know, is there kind of some therapeutic, you know, questions we should at least entertain? Like anything other than affirming one's gender identity for teens is seen as transphobic. And I've talked to medical professionals that say, yeah, it's in some context, it can, pretty eerie almost, you know, I've talked to endocrinologists in particular, I've talked to three or four different ones and they said, you know, just from an endocrinologist, just from a pretty basic endocrinology perspective, giving a, somebody who's not fully developed mentally, physically, you know, high doses of a hormone that their body is not naturally producing at that level. I mean, there's kind of just clear basic kind of endocrinological risks, you know, you're taking and we all know, we should know that teenagers are teenagers and who a teenager identifies as at 15 might not be who they will i'd be identifying as it you know 67

or whatever so should we at least have some caution but they would the endocrinologists i've talked to say at the big symposium of endocrinology whatever like the stuff that's being told that we the practices we must adopt or it's eerie they're kind of like there's there's little to no scientific kind of like discovery that's forcing these changes in practice we're being told as an chronologist to do something we everybody's looking around knowing like this is not the best science right you know um but all that to say in the uk when i read stuff and talk to people there does seem to be a much more maybe i would say

healthy kind of conversation around what what raising questions what is the best medical approach to a 16 year old who you know identifies as non-binary you know how do we and has gender dysphoria maybe depression maybe a suicide ideation like what's the best holistic way to approach this situation um Have you found that? I mean, have you doubt? Yeah. I mean, you're very aware of some of the debates around that. Yeah.

And particularly within the medical community in the UK. And again, public questions being asked about is this medically good practice to be doing some of these interventions so young. to be doing some of these interventions so young. But again, the fact that those questions are being raised in the public square by secular people I think is a sign that there's, like you said, a slightly healthier conversation emerging around some of these things. But I don't think these issues were really on my radar 10 years ago. I mean, the T part of LGBT was there in the background, but it was almost as if when the Supreme Court kind of legalized same-sex marriage in the U.S., it was the starting gun for the trans movement to kind of think, okay, that's done.

Here's the next one. And it kind of became a very, very prominent thing very quickly after that. How about the church? I mean, have you, um, when you go and speak at churches now, are you getting asked more questions about the trans conversation than LGB or is it kind of a mix or depends on the church probably? Yeah, it's probably about half and half. I would, I would guesstimate, um, because the number of, of particularly young people identifying as non-binary is, is, as you know so dramatically increasing um that again it's it's becoming less of an abstract theoretical issue and this is kids in the in the church youth group now kids who've grown up in the church beginning to identify as non-binary so it's become more immediate and more urgent for many for many communities and the other thing i've i've noticed is um these

questions are are no respecters of geography right so you it doesn't actually matter you could be in manhattan or you could be in georgia um it's not these things are not geographically contained and i think that's that's been very that's been a big shift in the last 10 years. There's a lot of these cultural changes because they're happening through social media, through smartphones, through the way we kind of are shaped these days. It doesn't, you know, if you're a small church in Alabama, you're not, you can't afford to say, well, that's just an issue on the east coast and it's never going to affect us here because the kids in your own youth group are imbibing the same stuff as kids in in the big cities so i think that that's been a big shift is the the kind of yeah that the social changes and the cultural changes through the bible belt are very significant. And helping churches, again,

get in on that conversation in as healthy a way as they can. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I just came back from a conference that we... So every year, our organization puts on kind of a two-day conference on sexuality, gender, faith. And we just came back from Pella, Iowa. Pella, Iowa, about an hour east of Des Moines is population. I want to say 10 or 11,000. I think I got that right. It's small town. And we've done, this is probably maybe the 25th, 30th conference we've done in the last five years. And it was the smallest city we've ever done one at by far and it was the largest attended conference we had i want to say 450 people live or live we had

another few hundred online from five countries to 31 states i mean it was um so it just illustrates the point they even in this seemingly like you know know, small Midwest town, you know, it's like, no, there's, there were people hungry to have this conversation because again, lots of parents with kids that identify, um, pastors, leaders, they're working through stuff because people are coming to church, gay and lesbian couples and so on. And, um, they're trying to navigate this conversation. So yeah, I, you know, I think maybe the percentage might be higher. Like when I go speak in Seattle, it's almost like, you know, youth leaders are asking me, so how do we,

how do you reach the straight population? You know, it's like the sheer number of, of kids identifying as LGBTQ and their youth groups is, you know, a much higher percentage and parents, you know, every single parent I met there had it, I would say on average two to three LGBT kids. And parents, every single parent I met there had, I would say, on average, two to three LGBT kids. And again, confirmation bias. I'm there to speak on this. They're coming to... But it was still... Definitely, percentages are much higher. But yeah, no longer is this simply

a conversation for churches in more progressive areas. What's it like in Nashville? Nashville's an interesting place, Bible Belt, but kind of more of a progressive, at least area, at least in some pockets, or how would you, yeah. Yeah, very much so. The city itself is increasingly secular. I mean, the city's been growing rapidly for the past 10 years, and most of that growth has come from the coasts and from Chicagoland. So the people who are moving in tend to be moving in from more progressive areas. So Nashville itself feels like quite a left-leaning, progressive city. You'll see pride flags all over the place. Then when you get out of the city, you're in Tennessee, and you'll, MAGA hats rather than pride flags.

And obviously, so a church in Nashville like mine, you get a bit of both in terms of people from the church. You get both backgrounds represented. So it's a fascinating place. But I think it means that in cities like Nashville, and Nashville won't be unique on this, it's the days where you could just ring the bell at church and people will just turn up are fading quickly. And so it's very hard to be a pastor now without also being an apologist. Because, again, these cultural changes are coming to a theatre near EU and affecting people in your youth group. I think for many people, there's now a, the dynamic of trying to reach the younger people, even in our own communities, has become a cross-cultural kind of dynamic now.

So, yeah, I think Nashville is a case in point in that. I think the same thing would be being experienced in other cities across the sort of so-called Bible Belt. But it means we have a lot of opportunities. My pastor was sharing with me yesterday, he was chatting to someone recently who, rather than, it's the kind of secular person whose reaction to you being a Christian isn't, you know, well, here's what I disagree with you on. It's all, I don't actually know what Christians believe. It's that level of, so post-Christian, it's become pre-Christian again in a number of cases. And again, I mean, that's already been there in the UK for a while, right, would you say? Oh, for 20 years. When I was serving at a church in Oxford and with lots of non-Christians coming through, even then I was already getting people kind of saying i know this country's been you know influenced by christianity

historically but i don't really know what christianity says or what what people believe um which in one sense was isn't in one sense is an easier evangelistic kind of task than someone who has grown up with preconceptions about the Christian faith that aren't true. You have a blank slate, I guess. But it's indicative of, you know, how ignorant a lot of people are these days of the kind of cultural background, you know, basics you might have picked up about the Christian faith and not, just not there as much anymore. Hey friends, Preston here. As most of you know, I'm an author with David C. Cook Publishing, but I'm also an avid reader. And so I wanted to share with you some of my favorite authors and books. These are authors that have inspired me, challenged me, helped me grow in my faith in new and exciting ways. And I know they'll do the same for you. If you want to find out more,

go to davidccook.org forward slash theology in the raw. That's davidccook.org forward slash theology in the raw. I can't wait to hear what you think. Sam, I'm curious. So we, you know, we talked about kind of your first edition, second edition, the changes in culture, and I'm sure you're going to throw this back on me. Have you changed? I mean, everybody's changed. How have you changed in, I mean, your basic theology hasn't changed, but have you changed anything, whether in your views or posture, emphasis, or who are you now compared to who you were 10 years ago? Yeah, I hope I'm a wiser person than I was 10 years ago.

I find I'm in my 40s. I enjoy each decade way more than the previous one because I'm less dumb. So I'm less dumb than I was in 2013. I think the big thing I would, I would, I would say is my, my theology hasn't changed in terms of what the Bible says about sexual ethics. I think I feel as though I have a much more positive message to share with my non-Christian gay friends than I did 10 years ago. I think 10 years ago, I was still finessing how to communicate, hey, the Bible says this is not right. I think what I'm trying to sort of say now is, here's how the gospel is good news for you. It's obvious how it's going to be

constraining and difficult and so on, but here's how Jesus is good news for us. So I'm hoping, I think I added a new section with a new edition, really just to sort of, is Jesus good for us on this issue? Because that to me is the big issue. I feel as though Christ has become more beautiful to me in the past 10 years. And as I have opportunities to speak to secular LGBT groups, you know, I'm more convinced now than I was 10 years ago that this is a great context in which to do mission. And therefore, my plea to pastors isn't, you know, please don't think your job is just to hold the line and defend fortress church from these kind of cultural forces your job is to is to win people for christ and our lgbt friends

many of them are very very open to spiritual conversations um there's no there's normally a kind of hump to get over where they think you're going to hate them and so there's there's defenses up. But I find once people kind of get through the barrier of realizing actually you don't hate them and you can actually have a safe conversation, I found there's so much fruitful conversations to be had there. So I think I'm more convinced of that than I was 10 years ago. I think 10 years ago, I mean, I wrote the book 10 years ago, primarily for the church had to be a bit more biblically clear and compassionate. The new edition I've actually written for the non-Christian.

Oh, wow. I could see that. People were giving my old book to non-Christian friends anyways. I thought, well, if that's, if that's how it's being used, let's try and make it a bit more intentionally kind of geared that way and more accessible. I am more compassionate than I was 10 years ago. But I'm more excited about the mission opportunities, more confident that actually I have something good to share with my LGBT friends. No, that's good. How about you? I was was gonna move on to another question um yeah i i mean i would definitely resonate with with all of that um haven't

changed theologically i mean some people still i i hear stuff people assuming certain things that i believe um i've had people tell, a friend just told me, he's like, oh yeah, it's pretty widely reported that I am gay and I'm in a mixed orientation marriage. I've been called a gay activist, probably because of my name, I think. That's what somebody told me. With a name like that, you can't be straight. I mean, people think I'm affirming. People think I'm a homophobe. I mean, all across the map, it's really fascinating. I would say I am even more convinced, not that I wasn't at all before, but the more I reflect on the theology, more and more convinced that marriage and sex difference as part of what marriage is, is necessary for the meaning of marriage, for the purpose of marriage. So I, and I don't think God was unclear with this. And I know we're,

so I think the clarity and convincingness of the theology and also like, like exactly what you said, just seeing it is not like, ah, this is kind of a hurdle for people, but this is actually part of God's beautiful revelation of the creator's design for how humans can best flourish in his creation. Like it's woven into the creation account. Marriage plays a significant theme, a really complex, beautifully complex role in the biblical storyline.

It's not theologically insignificant. And again, none of that was something that I would have disagreed with before, but I think just much, much more clarity in my own mind on that, that this isn't sexual ethics. It's not some secondary fringe thing. And again, people have this kind of zero-sum game in how they treat kind of theology and grace. So people think, oh, so you probably borrowed from your grace tank to strengthen your theology. I'm like, no. Because of that beautiful theology, all the more reason to embody this radical kindness of Christ. I never have thought, and I'm utterly more convinced that these two are not at odds. And I think probably the number one critique I get that I do believe is a misunderstanding.

So maybe it'd be good for me to say it publicly. People say, yeah, you're just kind of like doing the bait and switch. You dangle this kindness carrot, lure progressive people in, and then they find out you don't affirm same-sex marriage. And it's kind of this bait and switch, and you're just using kindness as kind of like a ploy. And I'm like, I could see where someone would get that. Actually, I'm like, I can see where you get that from because you've been fed a message, I think, that to be kind is to affirm everything. And I just have never had that presupposition. And I am not, I don't try to embody kindness and grace

as a way to kind of cover up my theology. It's an expression of my theology. It's an essential part of the posture of Christ. And so for me, it's because I'm so theologically committed that I will all the more say, if we're not embodying the kindness of God as we ought, we're not embodying the truth that we say we uphold. So it's never been an either or. So that's been strengthened. I mean, obviously, I've added more knowledge around the trans

conversations since I first started writing on sexuality and recognizing, yeah, LGB is quite different from T. Even the whole phrase, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, you know, the phrase LGBTQ affirming or non-affirming. Once we get past the B in that acronym, we're dealing with a different set of questions to where that doesn't, what does that even mean to be LGBTQ affirming? You know, does affirm that 14-year-old teenagers should transition and to say, I'm not sure they should transition? Is that not affirming? What does it mean to be affirming when it comes to the T? I think people still aren't sorting some of that out. I don't know why i brought that up maybe oh maybe just maybe in my own journey a deeper understanding of that there's a very there's complexities here that aren't just a one-size-fits-all

there's layers and layers to this conversation but um i think it's telling that even among my my non-christian friends just hearing their conversations around these things even the fact that they will they will use the phrase lgbtq and then they kind of they then kind of stumble as to what comes next um yeah and it's as if it's everything after that they know there's something else that comes after that but it's a bit kind of vague in their minds which may be indicative of of some of where that conversation is at the moment people know that there's the gender identity stuff they know that there are the different forms of sexuality um that the category of of queer as a sort of more umbrella term is is fairly established but the sort of the stuff after that feels less clear to

a lot of my even my secular friends um is it i is it it A? Is it something else? And yeah, I think people aren't, yeah. What's the official acronym these days? And it keeps getting adjusted and added to and then tweaked. Even for people who are trying to be good secular people, it can get very confusing. I do think, too, that we obviously have way more identity terms today than we did 10 years ago. I'm not sure. Well, here, I guess let me give two sides of this.

I'm not sure that's always helpful. And yet, when you're ministering to people, identity terms can play such a significant role in their journey and their experience. So I've been trying to navigate just that tension of, yeah, I just in some, maybe even many cases, especially with younger people, when they have this angst of finding an identity term that matches exactly their experience. I just see that not adding to their flourishing. It seems to create much more angst and, well, I'm not this term anymore. Now I'm this, or now I came out as this identity. And then if they don't have that same experience a year later, there's social pressure to not change that. It doesn't seem to be helping in many cases. And yet, if you even question an identity term, there's zero chance of a relationship in most cases.

And so I'm just trying to navigate that. Yeah, I feel as though the identity questions have begun to supersede the actual sexuality and feelings issues. I read an account recently of someone who identifies as lesbian but recognises she's not sexually attracted to women, but feels in her identity that she's a lesbian. sexual feelings that you would normally base that identity on. And it feels as though the identity now matters more than the sort of, you know, the things that we would have made defining of that identity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the some of the gender categories that are of the non-binary variety. So gender fluid, genderqueer, non-binary, and there's many others that are not, So gender fluid, genderqueer, non-binary, and there's many others that are not simply trans man, trans woman. A what somebody might describe as being a tomboy or something 10, 20 years ago. It's almost word for word the same as like a non-binary experience. But tomboy didn't have the kind of ontological depth that some of these gender identity terms are

conveying. I guess that that's where, that's where, that's where I get nervous because there could be an internal and external pressure to kind of feel the weight of this identity term. When you find one that matches your experience, when experiences are fluid, you know,

and, and, or even, you know, asexual. Yeah. That's the thing for me, trying to engage this, engage these conversations, that the first thing is whenever anyone describes themselves as anything like that, my first question is always, I'd love to know what you mean by that. Because they could mean any one of, you know, any number of things by that so it's always helpful when someone says that even if they

said they're gay or they're bi or whatever it might be gender fluid say what do you i'd love to understand what you what you mean by that because that will help us engage in the conversation and understand them better but the other thing i've i found is going upstream of that and saying, how do we, how do we, how do we know who we are? Um, what is that process? And, and trying to sort of teach into that and trying to, I've been trying to say to people that a sexual identity can't bear the weight of all that you are as a human being made in God's image. There's so much more to you. There's just a heaviness to you, a significance to you. And I love using the woman at the well as a case study for someone who wasn't looking for an identity, but found it as a byproduct of encountering Jesus.

And she says, come and meet a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ? He sheds light on her life, what her life had become about, the Christ. He sheds light on her life, what her life had become about, and just trying to liberate people from that sense of, I have to determine and find this identity that will be enough to fit me for the next however many years, and to sort of relieve people of that burden by saying, actually, I'm not saying come back to the old ways of, you know, finding your identity. I'm saying that let's come, come to the person who came up with the idea of you in the first place, because that is the only way we'll really understand who we are is when we meet the,

the one who taught us up and created us. Do you find that message? Cause I love that. Do you find that well-received by people or depends? I, I do generally, yes. But particularly because what I'm really trying to do in my own particularly evangelistic method is lean heavily into Genesis 1 as an apologetic. And too much evangelism starts in Genesis 3 with, hey, you're a sinner. The Bible doesn't start there. The Bible starts with you. You are royalty. You are made in the image of God.

You have no idea how much you matter. And because so much of these discussions have been fraught with self-loathing and all these other kind of mental health issues, I want to start off with that sense of actually God came up with the idea of you and Genesis 1 tells me he was having a good day when he did. And it makes then the presence of sin and the fall all the more poignant and tragic. But I'm trying to show people, you know, Jesus says we're worth more than many sparrows. I'm trying to show people, you know, Jesus says we're worth more than many sparrows. People don't feel like they are worth much today. So I'm coming at it from that angle and saying, actually, part of what makes you worth so much is that there's so much more to you than the very things you're tempted to give star billing in your own kind of understanding of who you are. There's something more core,

more stable, more just deeper in who you are that gives you value in the eyes of God. And I've seen that help pastorally with people who, I was having a chat with one teenage girl at a church youth group who was very, very, very hostile the whole way through our youth group who was very very very hostile the whole way through our our youth group discussion but she kind of i could see her wanting to to linger at the end and i thought i bet she wants to have a conversation with me when they were you know that other people can't hear so we whilst people were kind of tidying up in the background she she came up and the issue for her was self-loathing desperate self-loathing. And so just trying to open up Genesis 1 to her. And she even said, you know, have you ever felt self-loathing? And if you have, what's helped you? And I said, the gospel helps me with this. Whereas if I pin my sense of worth on my sexuality,

I'm putting it on something actually quite fragile and quite unstable. Whereas if it comes from my createdness, from a God who wanted me to exist, then that's a bit more secure. So many straight people need the same gospel. Imagine that, Sam. Oh, exactly. Ten years later, we're like, there's so... Most of, when someone says, can you do a talk on sexuality and the gospel, I'll come along and I'll share a bit of my story. But actually, 85% of what I'm sharing is the gospel. It's just it's framed in a conversation about sexuality.

So it feels as though the whole conversation is about sexuality. But really, what we're talking about here is the gospel. It's what we're talking about here is the gospel. And that's, I guess, one of my big projects in all that I've done and said in the last 10 years is really just trying to say to the church, we've kind of forgotten how the gospel works here. And we've been confused about issues of sexuality because we've taken those issues out of a gospel framework. And all I'm trying to do is put it back in the same gospel framework and say, this is the same gospel for all of us here. And it doesn't feel like it because some of us haven't actually thought about the cost of discipleship for ourselves. And so when we're suddenly applying it to our gay friends, it feels a bit unfair.

Or when we're being far more gracious to ourselves and our own sins than we would be to other peoples. So just trying to help the church apply gospel consistency, I think, is one of my great goals in all of this, as I know you do the very same. What do you, I mean, it does feel like we're in a bit of this strange cultural moment post-pandemic. I think the pandemic threw a wrench into even this conversation. We've seen an increase in mental health issues and LGBTQ plus identities. And I don't even know if there's a correlation there. It's just kind of like, or maybe because people were kind of, you know, didn't gather for a while and just kind of were away and we come back we're like oh man it just seems like

the this this conversation is is really ramped up um it didn't take a major hiatus um we're also in a confusing political climate social cultural climate um where do you see the church or maybe not chair let's not start where do you see this conversation in two to five years? Do you foresee any changes given the kind of different trajectories? Does that make sense? I mean, kind of a broad, general question. Yeah, I've got a few hunches and I take them with a pinch of salt because most of the things I think, oh, that's definitely going to happen or that will never happen, I'm often wrong. So take this with all the caveats that are needed. My suspicion is, I think a few things are going to happen at the same time. I think generally it's going to get harder for us to be theologically Orthodox Christians in the Western world. I'm conscious of that. I'm not fearful of that because my understanding of the book of Acts and church history is that it's often at those times the gospel becomes more fruitful. I think it will be a more fruitful time for us. So I'm not worried about that.

I think at the same time, my suspicion is we will see a growing and ugly populist backlash against a lot of the trans stuff. backlash against a lot of the trans stuff and to the extent where i think we as the church may need to step in to try to protect some of our trans friends because when you know we we don't share all the you know the many of the ideological commitments of our trans friends but we also want them to be treated with dignity and respect and i'm'm seeing quite of, you know, stuff that looks like it's going to be quite an ugly kind of cultural push against some of that stuff. As some of that ideology does the sort of overreach thing, I think there's going to be an ugly backlash to that. Russell Moore once said, you know, if you thought the religious right was bad enough, just wait till you see the irreligious right. And we've

begun to see that already. So there are going to be times when the church, we will have the honor of getting hit from both sides at once, where we want to protect the dignity of people we profoundly disagree with against those who would demean them and even bully them and target them. But we won't share the ideological assumptions at the same time that a whole other part of culture is insisting we adopt. But I kind of feel like that should be where we excel as the church, because we shouldn't be fitting in anyway. We're strangers and aliens here. And this is something that has been very peculiar for me coming into a US context from the UK, is in the UK, as Bible-believing Christians, we never expected to have the top seats at the cultural table.

So it's in our DNA to be the kind of, you know, with the minority, we're going to be looked down on. That's fine. That's normal for us. That's fine. That's normal for us. Whereas I think for many Christians here, that is a new and deeply unsettling space to have to exist in, which I think is why there's so much rising anger from some parts of the conservative world against just everything. And even our disposition and posture towards our gay friends by a lot of conservative Christians is seen as capitulation and compromise and cowardice. Because they're thinking, hey, we've got to be aggressive and hostile. And I just don't see any biblical warrant for that at all.

I think we're not fighting flesh and blood and our weapons are not fleshly weapons. We fight the spiritual forces with grace and truth and our weapons are not fleshly weapons. We fight the spiritual forces with grace and truth and kindness, which is why I just love your ministry, brother. Thank you, man. Yeah, it's high praise. You know, it's funny. It's not funny. It's interesting. Yeah, going to your point, it's fascinating to see the secular rhetoric, especially around the trans conversation, to be pretty hostile and aggressive. And it's not just from the religious right. This is something that people aren't in the conversation. They don't realize.

When I listen to political commentators, I typically listen to, I like the heterodox, kind of left of center classical liberal thinkers and actually it's interesting most of the ones i listen to are actually gay who are left again left of center they don't like republicans at all but they also are like they've seen the left get way too far so they're kind of like speaking out kind of from that's their own tribe but they're speaking out very critically and they see kind of the trans conversation among, well, the, I would say trans activists and kind of that far left kind of ideology.

They're very outspoken against that. And I'm listening to their tone. I'm like, wow. Like, yeah, you're pretty upset and like saying things that are really aggressive. And I'm like,

no longer is it just a religious, or I would expect, I would expect it from the, you know, Tucker Carlson's or whatever. And I'm like, no longer is it just a religious, or I would expect, I would expect it from the, you know, Tucker Carlson's or whatever, but I'm like, no, I'm listening to people who would hate Tucker Carlson.

you know, and it sounds very the same. And to your point, the church has a wide open lane to model a, and I might even agree with some of the, maybe the, the intellectual criticism they have, or things are saying like,

I'm on board intellectually. You're making good points, but your posture is just so bad. And the church has a wide open door to be critical of ideologies that not only conflict with scripture, but might be harmful for humanity. And yet model a much, much better posture. I tell people, for every one activist, let's just say trans activist, there are 99 people who, for whatever reason, are wrestling with their biological sex. Maybe they're confused with different ideologies that they're absorbing. Maybe they're wrestling with mental health issues. They might be a victim of some activist ideologies,

but they're not an actor. They're just trying to get through the day. They're trying to figure things out. They're 15-year-old teens who are in a really difficult social environment. And goodness, if all we do is attack activist ideology, we're going to be unintentionally speaking very negatively to people who are in our pews. So we have a wide open door to model a different way. I hope we take that opportunity. I don't always see it. I think we have a historic opportunity for the gospel in this particular.

I don't want to be a Christian at any other time than right now in the context that we're in. I love that line in Hamilton, you know, look around, look around. We're so lucky to be alive at a time like this. And I feel that way. I don't think it's going to be easy, but I think it's going to be. We do have this probably unrepeatable opportunity to model the posture of Christ, the friend of sinners, to our culture and to show, you know, my personal aim is I want my gay friends, my trans friends who know what I think

and know how, you know, profoundly I might disagree with them. I nevertheless want to be the kind of person they most feel safe with within that disagreement. the kind of person they most feel safe with within that disagreement. Some they will always feel dignified by, even if I'm not anywhere near, in some cases, the same page as them in terms of beliefs and so on. And I just think that is, in the Lord's hands, that is a powerful thing, because it's God's kindness that leads to repentance. And so if all we're doing is screaming at the internet, I don't think we're going to see people coming to Christ. But if we can show otherworldly kindness to people who know what we think,

I think that bears fruit. And we can only do that because we've received that very kindness ourselves. Jesus shouldn't have been kind to me, but he has been kind to me. And that's made me want to express that same heart to other people. Sam, what's on your desk for 2023? What are you doing this year? Yeah, one of the things is, Lord willing, I'm moving to the States full time to be here in Nashville at Emanuel Nashville Church. I've got a couple of writing projects. I'm writing something at the moment on what it means to be in Christ.

So kind of practical exposition of what it means to be united to Jesus. Later in the year, I'm hoping to wade into another kind of cultural issue, which is the environment and to think through what is a Christian posture towards the physical environment. Because, you know, it was made for him, by him, through him and for him. So this physical world belongs to Jesus. And I don't think we can be worshippers of Jesus and be indifferent to what is going on in the physical world around us. And to my secular friends, I want to say, I don't think you will care for the physical world well without knowing the one to whom it belongs. So it'd be fun to wade into that a bit later on as well. Oh, that's incredible, man. Yeah. I've got several friends who have been in that

conversation and yeah, that is another hot button. Unfortunately, it's a hot button issue creation. Well, Sam, I really love you and your ministry. Thank you for your kind words to me, and I wish we could hang out more. Maybe next time I'm in the neighborhood, I'll definitely look you up, and we'll have to get together. Please do. I would love that. I would love that so much. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.