Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1054: The Asbury Revival: A View from the Inside with Elijah Drake

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

Elijah Drake is a third year student at Asbury Theological Seminary and has been part of the Asbury revival from day one. He's prayed over many people, been prayed over by others, experienced repentance and reconciliation, and has witnessed the overwhelming presence of God at Asbury. But the revival hasn't been without its challenges. As a celibate gay Christian, Elijah has experienced ruthless attacks from people who don't think Jesus has a place for gay people in the kingdom--let alone a revival.  If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel!  Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, I want to let you know about this year's Conversations in the Raw. Conversations in the Raw is a discipleship learning experience that follows the Exiles in Babylon conference. So this year at the conference, we're tackling several topics, including women in leadership, the future of the church, disability in the church, and multi-ethnic perspectives on American Christianity. And so Conversations in the Raw is an online learning cohort that dives deeper into these topics following the conference.

You can sign up for one or all of the conversations if you want. In each cohort, they'll meet online for about an hour and a half to engage in honest, curious conversations with a leader and other cohort members. And there's only three meetings, so it's not like an overwhelming commitment. Everyone who goes through conversations will receive a certificate. I know that some of you have jobs that encourage you to get learning certificates, so you can do that through conversations will receive a certificate. I know that some of you have jobs that encourage you to get like learning certificates. So you can do that through conversations. Also, this year we're teaming up with Denver Seminary and Eternity Bible College

to offer a four credit option for Conversations in the Raw. I mean, that's crazy, right? For just 500 bucks, you can get three master's level credits from Denver Seminary or three undergrad credits from Eternity Bible College. You'll have to do extra work, obviously, but I mean, this is a screaming deal to get credit from an innovative learning experience. So go to theologyintheraw.com forward slash conversations to learn more about Conversations in the Raw. That's theologyintheraw.com forward slash conversations. Think deeply, love widely through Conversations in the Raw. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Elijah Drake. Elijah is a student at Asbury Theological Seminary. And so naturally, I wanted to reach out to him and find out what's

been going on at Asbury. I'm sure you all have been hearing about the ongoing revival that's been going on. And I wanted to talk to somebody on the ground who's been involved and hear from them what it's going on. I was there a year ago, so I distinctly remember being in, like even before speaking in chapel, people tell me about the revival that happened there in 1970 i think it was and and oh that's interesting and people were like man we're really you know would love to see something like that happen again that was a year ago so it's been for me looking on like wow this this is really happening again you know um so anyway why don't you take us back to it i guess the beginning how did this thing start um give us some details you know on the ground what's been going on for people that maybe have Why don't you take us back to, I guess, the beginning. How did this thing start?

Give us some details on the ground, what's been going on for people that maybe have heard about the revival, but don't know any many details about what's going on. Yeah, right now I'm going back in my calendar to figure out what day in February this started again. It was February 8th. What's helpful to know is that, like you mentioned, revival is kind of woven into the fabric of Asbury University. The 1970 revival that went on for like 111 hours, don't quote me on that, but it went on for days. And people were sent out from the revival and like it started different outpourings on different universities. My undergrad, Spring Arbor University, has this story from 1971, I think, where they had some Asbury Seminary students come visit and share their testimony, and it led to a whole outpouring and revival there. And so it ended up affecting hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world, and as a result, has definitely been just built into this like expectancy that happens.

People desire this like movement of the spirit. And like, there's always a possibility that something like this could happen. And it really created the, the perfect space for it. Like people who remembered that past revival had testimonies about how it had changed their life. And then students who had, you know,

heard about it throughout their entire time at Asbury. But even still, what is beautiful about it to me is even with that, like built in the fabric of the school is how unengineered this entire thing was. I think a lot of people are skeptical of it. And I was too on the very first day, February 8th. They have chapel on, I think, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, the university does at 10 a.m. And they, on Wednesday, had a pastor in the local area, whatever, Zach, and he was preaching. And he had said to other people after the fact, and even had called his wife apparently and said, my sermon was not great. I didn't even get to the points that I wanted to. It was a very mediocre. I didn't even get to the points that I wanted to. It was a very like mediocre. I don't know if he had spoken at Asbury University before,

but he had not felt great about it. But after he had preached, the gospel choir had started up and they'd been worshiping and chapel like ended like it usually does at whatever time it ends. But a bunch of students kind of stuck around and continued to worship. And then they were spending time in like prayer with each other. And it kind of just like rippled through the campus. People were hearing like, hey, chapel didn't end. There are still students there worshiping and praying with each other. And so more students from around campus came back.

And it was just this moment of like people like jumping back into this like participation and worship with each other and really like um reconciling with each other and like people were like getting uh you know in tears and repenting to god and there was just this moment of like people really like being nudged by the spirit into greater relationship with him and others and we started getting like him and others. And we started getting like text messages about it. And we were getting like people telling us like, Hey, chapel did not end at the university. And I like, I didn't know what to think about it because revival has been like a word that's kind of just like passed around as very, and people think about it a lot. And so I didn't do anything about it initially. And I decided to go at night because

I'm like, if this is like a thing, if something's actually happening, then it'll probably be still happening tonight. So I showed up at 10 PM on the first night and I walk in this room and it's just like, there's this like thickness to what's going on. There are like, I tell people it was like anarchic in the best way possible. There were like students just like all over the chapel and many different like spaces and nooks and crannies praying over each other. There were like the worship team had ended at like 9 30 PM. And so there were just random students on the instruments playing music and leading worship. And there were people just in like different clusters everywhere. There were a lot of tears. And I stayed until

2 a.m. that first night. And by the time I left, like students were dragging in mattresses so they could stay the entire night there. Worship was still going. People were still praying. And I didn't know what was going to happen. Kind of been alumni, had been like posting about it, like, hey, something interesting is happening at Asbury so by the next day not only were the university students and the seminary students like still in worship together but all of a sudden people around the local town of Wilmore started showing up and then the local area of Lexington started showing up and then all of a sudden like people throughout like the Wesleyan holiness Methodist world started like showing up from the region and area. And I would say that in the first few days, it was just a, I don't know, an ambient atmosphere of resting in God's presence. It was students, like, not only, like, participating, but, like, leading

each other in worship to God and in better relationship with each other. And especially, like, in the middle, like, the dead of night. One night, I think it was that Friday, I was there till 3.40 a.m., and there was just, like like beautiful presence of like God in there and like a beautiful presence of like each other, like actively seeking each other out to pray for each other. reconciled with another seminary student that I hadn't talked to for like two years since the first semester that I got there because I had been kind of hurt by something he had said. We had not like been reconciled with each other, but I got into the room and I had like been looking at my journaling app and like, does God want to say something to me in this moment? And I had read an old journal entry from two years previously on that day where I had mentioned that conflict and how I had never cleared the air. And all of a sudden I looked up from my phone and there that person

was 20 feet in front of me making eye contact with me. And so I feel like so many people have these stories of like, God did a new work or like a new nudging in their life towards different responses to his word that they might not have just done in their day-to-day life. And that like theme of reconciliation hung over me, but like this repentance hung over others. And I think that has been like a major element of the outpouring. And then after that, like the weekend hit and I was wondering a little maybe with some dry humor like is an American football game going to end this revival because Super Bowl is happening that was online like this is genuine if it keeps going yeah exactly um and it did not

in fact I because I'm not a big football person so So I showed up during the Superbowl to see if anyone was there. And like, it was a packed house and, and I was just like shook because like really like people at that point, like had clearly like abandoned their plans and decided to come into this space and worship God, um, over everything that was happening. And that's when I think I knew like, this is, there's a stickiness to this. There's a, there's a beauty to this. We, none of us knew what word to use. It was a big argument on the seminary campus at first. It was like, what do you, like people keep saying revival, but revival has all of these, you know, expectations or it's laden with these like pieces and parts to it. Like since 2016 revival has often been like, had like political edge to it because you've had

different like revival protests from different people. And since this didn't have that political edge and wasn't really engaged in that kind of like culture war. Like I remember someone messaged me, he's like, yeah, he's a pastor. And he said, my congregants were like, is this like revival in response to that like demonic unholy performance at the Grammys the other night? Which is like a really funny thing to like see where people's priorities or thoughts were. But I can assure you the students were not thinking of that when they said like fell into worship. It wasn't like a response to any sort of like controversy that had arisen, but was merely this like this commitment to like stepping into worship with God.

And then the spirit used that to draw people in from all over the place. Now it's around the world, but it, you know, was around the country and people started showing up from every space. And there was this like sense that like, we had to like go into all in after like the first week we were like at night, especially overflowing to the auditorium, all of our seminary camp people who kind of showed up and we're like, I want the real thing. Like, I think God's presence is like, it was like this idea and like, is God's presence outside of Hughes Auditorium? Is it across the

street? And first few days, I think there were some people who showed up that really didn't want to be anywhere else. But by the end of it, I was seeing like, no matter what little satellite chapel we had on campus or off campus that was like participating, chapel we had on campus or off campus that was like participating, people would walk through the threshold and just immediately stumble into tears. I had a person message me that like, he hadn't prayed for three years, the gay man, and he like waited for hours in line to get to Hughes. And he said, by the time I got in there, like, I mean, I only had like 20 minutes, something like that to like be there before I had to leave. But he walked in and he said, immediately, I just crumbled into tears. And God started to heal all of the pain and the hurt

and the experience that had like just barred me from relationship with God. And he said he prayed for the first time in three years and it was beautiful. And I think that is a common refrain. You know, some people are like, well, why can't God work elsewhere? But in this moment, God is doing a work here and people are just trying to touch the hymn of Jesus's robe. And so they're walking and stepping out in faith. And that has been beautiful. Thank you for all of that. Yeah. So, I mean, I was raised in a very non-anti-charismatic background, not that far, but like, yeah, things like revivals, it's always like, oh, well, is that, do we have that anymore?

You know, like, you know, for somebody who is a, how about, how would I describe it? Like, like a good faith skeptic, not, not the stuff you see online, but like somebody who's like, well, what do you mean revival? And like, yeah, isn't God like, what's so unique about this physical geographical location? Isn't God everywhere? Like what, how would you describe first of all like you know what is revival and what is it about the the physical location where this is happening that makes a unique divine experience for lack of better terms yeah I mean these revival

moments um arise out of like a community in proximity and in like embodied relationship with each other like responding to god's presence and to like who god is and so the emphasis of this moment has been really like a renewal within like wilmore and has been like people really like been, you know, I also like have to like tell people that this is this is like a Methodist holiness, like historically, like, and there have been more than one Pentecostal that showed up and was not very happy with what they were seeing because they were like in one of the like first nights, even like some man from Miami and I like got to talking and he's auditorium and he like went on like a little preaching rant to me.

And he was like, they need to not quench the spirit. They need to not like try to like structure it or like stop things from happening or whatever. Because he was used to like, just like the absolute ultimate, like freedom to do anything at any time and go to any place. But at some point during the shift, as more and more outsiders started to visit, we got a little more careful about who was praying up front and who was sharing testimonies and who was speaking, which might be structured that makes some people, like, this was stewarding the place and like the opportunity that God had given in a way that would not allow people to like come in with their own agendas and like

take over with their own desires or like preconceptions or whatever. So this revival is not that this can't happen elsewhere. And actually, like, if you've been paying attention to the messaging from the institutions, we are very much pushing towards the sending portion of this. We are going to be like sending people back into their places to share their testimonies and like create this like response to God in other places where people like maybe will have their hearts cracked open in ways that they hadn't before. And even like there's some other universities and churches that have had like responsive worship services and different moments like that. And it's even again, like the difference between like maybe a Pentecostal revival would say like yeah we'll go

for another 200 days as long as people are still showing up we kind of said there comes a point where i mean not only are like you know we've had like i would estimate like over 80 000 probably more people like come through the town of 6 000 willmores 6,000. And there comes a point where like resources, not only are they stretched, but there's a moment where we need to galvanizing people towards like a more, like a responsive activity, not just trying to seek like a mountaintop experience here, but continuing forward elsewhere. Revival doesn't mean like,

it doesn't mean just like emotional high. I mean, some people were like, are people even repenting? I would say like, it was all students of the seminary and university. So it would be kind of strange for those people who like largely consider themselves Christian to be like repenting. I mean, like coming to Christ left and right. But as more and more visitors showed up, we actually did take like an evangelistic tone to like provide space for people to either return to Christ or find him for the first time. And people were like responding to it. There's this like, people are not leaving the same as they came. And there's like a great beauty in like this ecumenical unification of believers from all over the place and something that does not usually happen. I mean, there have been Catholic priests,

Baptist pastors, Methodist reverends. My free, I'm from the free Methodist denomination. My free Methodist bishops came and they were worshiping along Baptist pastors who are next to, you know, like Anabaptist house church people who are next to very charismatic non-denominationals. And so like you have like this moment where believers of every stripe, nationality, responding to God at the same time, and praying for each other in the same moment. And that is beautiful. It crosses a lot of boundaries. It can be uncomfortable, but it's beautiful. Yeah, that I mean, what I heard in which you confirmed that it wasn't kind of some top-down

heavy-handed revivalist preacher that came in it was really emotional and they kept playing you know it didn't seem to be top-down stirred up just like playing on people's emotions it was very much like i keep hearing like the sermon was kind of like a mediocre like it wasn't like there was there was nothing that was like playing on people's emotions. It did kind of be, it seems like more of a groundswell. Would that be an accurate beginning with student-led repentance and renewal, renewed commitments to Christ? And yeah, I mean, I've experienced kind of, I've been involved with the Methodist Church quite a bit, also been in charismatic churches, and there is a difference. Flavor? And I don't know how to describe it, but like when you say like this kind of revival might feel different than yeah, the, the free, the flavor of the more Methodist Wesleyan holiness kind of whatever, whatever kind of charismatic brand you all have is just, it's,

it feels different. And I don't want to say even categorize as better, worse, whatever, just, it's just a different flavor. For sure. What are people when you see people repenting, is there, is there kind of a common theme of repent? Like what are people repent when you say people repenting, is there, is there kind of a common theme of repent? Like, what are people repenting from? I mean, all the way from like personal sins to, I don't know, like what, or is it just

kind of all or nothing, whatever they need to repent from? For sure. So I want to add to your previous comment and then answer the question on repentance, um, about like manipulation of people's emotions. Cause I think this is on people's mind a lot. But what I have been encouraged by our institution is like how it hasn't put forth like a lot of the things that like manipulate people into like a more excited or emotional or like responsive way. Like, so there have been multiple celebrities, celebrities in the Christian

world, to be fair, but multiple celebrities in the Christian world, to be fair, but multiple celebrities in the Christian world who have all come and none of them have been given a microphone. None of them have been allowed on stage. None of them have been on the prayer team. None of them have been preaching. And so you have all of these people like who are so used to maybe being at the center of attention and they are just participants. One worship pastor like called and was one famous like worship leader called and was like, Hey, like, what can I do for the revival? And, uh, my professor, Dr. Powers said, um, we would love for you to come and participate, but we've got worship covered. And so instead of having these like famous worship leaders lead worship, we were having the students every single day leading worship all day, the students from our space. And that has been beautiful. It's also, you know, Hughes Auditorium is like, it's not fog lights. It's not concert style. It's just definitely like not emotive. And so that's been beautiful to, to see that like, Hey, like

this is both honest and authentic and vulnerable. And when it comes to the repentance, I've, so I've been on the prayer team and hand, like I've seen like people like confess sin and like, you know, pursue like personal piety. And on other hand, like we've had a pastor like speak up like about like racism and like what it looks like to better love our neighbors. Because we're Holiness Wesleyan, we have talked about God's holy love a lot. And we've talked about how God can sanctify us as we, you know, give up all of ourself and surrender ourself to him. People are coming from different spaces, but what I'm hoping and what I think is that there's like a big return to love of neighbor and of like humanity in people because there aren't maybe these like culture war elements

to it. There's like a, there's a desire to like demonstrate kindness and maybe a way you wouldn't see in other places. I think sometimes revival has meant like we are hardening our heart against the enemy of God and we are going to conquer the culture. But instead, this has been about like we are softening our heart to the spirit and we're learning to best surrender ourselves to God. That's a good point. And again, looking on from a distance at other kind of revivalist type movements or attempted movements, they, now that you say that, it does seem to be there. There can be a culture war element. You know, America's, you know, going to hell in a handbasket when you stand against the, you know, the liberalism of this country or whatever. And like, there, there seems to be that kind of combative kind of element to it.

But I, from what I know, again, with the, with the denominations represented at the Asbury, it's not the spirit of just that, that brand of Christianity. So that doesn't surprise me. A couple of practical questions. So it literally is going all night. Like, are people going to sleep? Are they staying? Are they kind of coming shifts?

And are classes still going on? That was my, as a former professor, I'm like, are you still going to class? Yeah. So for the class thing, I think a rumor was spread around that like classes were not happening, but actually classes, unless you're talking about like that, maybe that first day and maybe the second day on the university campus, like there was like some hold on classes and people were leaving from their classes to go over to the chapel. But in general, the class schedule has still continued around the clock. Um, although I will say there have been plenty of revival extensions meted out to students.

Uh, I have asked for a couple of those myself. Um, and so that's definitely happened. The, the university and seminary kind of like are trying to spin it that like, Hey, like we're still keeping our schedule because we want to allow this like revival to steep into our lives this outpouring to like steep into our lives that we're able to like you know we're responding to god and we're doing it in our regular lives too so that's continued um so classes have continued student but even then like we're probably like losing a lot of sleep because up until Monday or this past weekend, the outpouring was going 24-7, like completely the entire night. And so you could be there the entire night.

It wasn't until this past weekend that they started closing at 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. a.m. or 2 a.m. And what's interesting is that we've actually had students leading worship from like 2 to 6 a.m. before they opened the doors so that like the worship would not stop, even though there was no audience and no one was in the room, but that like it would be like continued. But at the same time, they hadn't cleaned the Hughes Chapel in like well over a week. In the beginning, yes, it was going all night and you would see like backpackers would like take naps in the corners of the various chapels at different times. But more recently, they have been stopping at night. And this past week, as they've kind of winded down what's been happening, they've been having moments where only people 25 and under could be in Hughes. where only people 25 and under could be in Hughes, because there was this moment when just thousands and thousands of people were pulling, um, pulling into Wilmore, uh, the students who,

you know, this was, uh, they were there from the beginning. We're not even like, didn't have space in their own chapel to go in. And so they started creating that space for them. And then, uh, there is time for like everyone to be there but i think tomorrow well this is thursday february 23 right now but um tomorrow on friday they will have like they will be sending this revival out to a new place that's outside of wilmore uh which may probably like wind it down completely but that will allow us to kind of like get into like the responsive phase, especially for our community. Like how do we respond to this? Think about it. Let it like steep us without being completely exhausted. I mean, like just Sunday night, I was on the prayer

team from 10 PM to 2 AM. I was there and, you know, I was just like exhausted. I was it was a beautiful time. But it was definitely like as students, like as more and more people showed up, students became less participants and more facilitators. You know, I was late to class one day because I had like 15 minutes late because I had to direct some people to parking. I had to lead some people to the bathroom. A couple asked me like what my testimony is in the middle of campus. And so I had all these moments where I'm like dodging people left and right who are wandering my campus as I'm trying to make it to class because they're like, for good reason, excited to be here. And every time I found myself getting callous of the visitors and frustrated that they were taking all my parking. The second I step into one of the rooms that all of this is happening in

and I'm seeing people's lives changed, like it melted my heart back down, you know? This episode is sponsored by Camp Rockmont. Camp Rockmont is an interdenominational Christian summer camp for boys ages seven to 17 located just outside of Asheville, North Carolina in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains. Camp Rockmont provides age-progressive opportunities for your son to challenge himself, make lifelong friends, and grow as an individual. Whether it's learning how to guide a kayak down a river or how to plant and harvest food at their on-site organic farm,

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your son thrive. To receive $300 off any session and learn more about Rockmont, visit rockmont.com forward slash Theo, T-H-E-O. That's rockmont.com forward slash Theo, and all the info is in the show notes. This episode is sponsored by Biola University's Talbot School of Theology. Okay, so I get asked a lot about which seminaries do I recommend? And my response is always the same. I say, well, it kind of depends on what you're looking for.

But no matter what, Talbot is always one of my top recommended schools, partly because I feel like I know like half the professors there. So I know who you're going to be studying under. But I've also spoken on campus a couple of years ago and just had an amazing time with students and other faculty and staff.

I've had several of the professors on my podcast. And here's what I love most about Talbot. They do a fantastic job combining rigorous scholarship that's saturated with a deep love for the church. And it's all integrated with a pervasive emphasis on spiritual formation in the lives and hearts of the students. The professors are super down-to-earth, they're involved in their churches, and yet they're also able to write like high-powered academic books. So if you're looking to deepen your understanding of scripture, or just be more equipped to serve your family, your church,

or the world around you, Talbot offers many different courses and degree programs, and they've done a fantastic job with their online program. You can come study online with people literally from around the world. You can attend online classes live, or you can watch pre-recorded courses by some amazing professors. So if you've been thinking about going to seminary, I would highly encourage you check out biola.edu forward slash Talbot. That's Viola.edu forward slash Talbot. You mentioned earlier, like people were, it may be last week in the real height of it, like people were lining up because they couldn't all fit in the chapel. So they're waiting in line and were they like rotating people at like, you can come in for a half hour and then please make

space for somebody else. Or how did they facilitate that to get like they didn't have a timeline on whether or not you um had to stay for a certain amount of time there was a moment they had lots of like what they called like kind of like disengagement moments where like it would be like 6 p.m or like 10 p.m where they would like everything would just kind of stop for a minute and they'd be like thank you so much for being here it would just kind of stop for a minute. And they'd be like, thank you so much for being here. It would just be kind of like a transition. And like people didn't have to leave, but it was like a transition moment where there was nothing particular happening at the time. And at that point, I feel like a lot of people would leave and more people would come in. But we kept, I mean, like telling people, like we had, there was a UMC vineyard. So there's a UMC building.

So a UMC and a vineyard church share a building on our corner. And we also have Estes Chapel. We have McKenna Chapel. We had the Cohen building. We had our gymnasium. There was a Baptist church that opened up its doors. There was a Christian church. The denomination is actually just like Christian church on the corner that like opened up its doors. And then we had Hughes auditorium. So we had lots of different spaces for people to worship some people. And I get it like you flew or drove hours and hours and hours,

and you wanted to be like a part of kind of like this central piece. And so a lot of people would wait in line for a long time to like settle into it but there was no like specific like direction on like how long people had to be in a space some people were there for 15 minutes like i mentioned but i know some people at different days were there for like eight hours in hughes auditorium uh soaking it in what's it done for you personally i mean you said you know you had you reconciled with somebody you were um at odds with and and um yeah what what are you taking away from this personally like what do you hope for the future your future at least near future um walk with christ yeah i feel like i have

to give you like the very shortened thing because i was just again my free methodist bishops came i got to get breakfast with them. And that was really good. I shared them like my testimony in response to this, but not enough time here probably. However, I'll share one story and like two things. So I mentioned that I'd been reconciled with someone. I was also, as a result, reconciled with a friend that I had not, that I had was not a friend that I like had been in conflict with since my senior year of college. I'm in my third year of seminary right now. And it was something that I did not expect to ever happen. And the spirit, the rue upon my lap,

I faced, I like group FaceTimed at one point as I was leaving Hughes Auditorium, my, um, my college friend group, which has like 11 people in it. And this person I was in conflict with, like never like was like the one to answer, but no one answered except for him. And then the Holy Spirit said, and you will apologize and he will, and you'll reconcile and pray with each other. And so that was beautiful. But one of the stories that stands out to me the most, and for clarification, I'm a celibate gay Christian. So I like am on this campus. I firm the traditional sexual ethic, but I'm definitely out. Like people know that I'm gay and like, I really care about the lives of LGBTQ people. And that's something that like my heart is really like broken over a lot of

the time. And so one of the first nights, maybe it was Friday night of the first week, there was a prayer, maybe it was Thursday night. There was a prayer board and I had written on the prayer board. There's tons of prayer requests, but I'd written specifically like that. The queer people on the seminary and university campus would have their sacred worth and dignity made known to them. A simple prayer, but like a desire that people would like see that they were loved. And maybe that would be like something that would be a

turning point in their life and relationship with God. I came back the next night and I approached with some trepidation the prayer board. And sure enough, someone had out of every single prayer request erased mine. And it was very intentional because they had erased just like the middle of it. So you couldn't really make it out anymore, but I could tell that it was mine right there. Um, which was like so troubling in my spirit and really hurt. And I didn't know what to do about it. So I like sat down at the, um, the near the altar and I was like, not sure what to ask God or talk to God about. I just like, was like, why does this happen? You know, like I get into this space and I like seek this worship and then like, you know, you

kind of get spit back at you. There was a woman like sobbing in front of me at the altar and I was like, okay, God, I'll focus on her needs. So I went and prayed for her and we had a conversation. It was a beautiful thing. But this random man sat down in the front row while I was praying with her. And he was like, hey, how can I pray for you? Which no one had asked me yet in the last few days. So I was like very uncertain how to like approach that. And also, as you know, having these conversations, the sexuality conversation is very complicated and not everyone gets it. And like, it's just not something that like I bring up, you know, to strangers all the time. So I didn't, I got to pray with her. I sat next to him and I didn't really bring that up to him.

I just talked about my experiences at seminary and how like, I felt like my spirituality had been kind of dead end in this space in some ways, or like, I was like kind of struggling through like a spiritual desert a little bit, which is true. And we were just like talking about, and he had been to seminary previously, but he wasn't a seminarian. He was a, he had driven like hours away. And this is at like 1 a.m. at this point. He had like driven at like 10 p.m. and driven to Hughes to be there.

And he affirmed like my relationship with God and was like, God, like I mentioned to him that like, I don't know how God's using me or like what I even have to offer the church. And he like just said some things that spoke edification into my soul. And he just seemed like a safe person. So I mentioned to him that the prayer request had been removed and how it had kind of felt emblematic of the way that, you know, sexual and gender minorities have their stories erased in the church because as like a controversial topic as a person, no one from stage is going to mention me or mention my story because it's just complicated. And that hurts. And it hurts to have your prayer request erased. And it hurts to like kind of be pushed to the edge in the corners.

And he was really moved by this. We prayed with each other. He prayed over me. I was thankful moved by this. We prayed with each other. He prayed over me. I was thankful for his kindness. And I went back to go sit with a friend who is gay and like experienced a ton of church hurt. And I sat down next to him and he said, Elijah, I hate the church so much

and I don't know how to not hate the church. And I did not have an answer to that. That is a very difficult question. So we sat and like cried next to each other. But then this pastor who, again, like was a Methodist pastor, he like walked back up to me on like on the side aisle and came up to me and just like whispered into my ear. And he said, your prayer request is back on the board. And in that moment, I realized that not only had he listened to me, but he had like, listen to me. And he responded by going up to that prayer board and making sure that my request was there, that queer students would be cared for. And that was just like the dam broke. I was sobbing. And I said to my friend, I was like, I think that's what the church is. The church is so broken, but through those cracks, like God's light is going to shine

through sometimes. And there's going to be a lot of times where people don't notice you and don't see you, but there's going to be moments when he does, when people do see you and God does see you. And that beauty is the church. And that's what I want to love. And so in that moment, that pastor was just kind of the embrace of God to us. And it was, you know, some random married straight man had heard, you know, my woe and had not just heard it, but listened and responded through the spirit and really just encouraged me. And that is what the space has brought. It has brought people who are seeking compassion. And that has affected my life. And I think I will hold that moment in like a little drawer. So whenever I'm doubting and whenever I'm sad, I can pull it out and be like, no, God chose to meet me in that moment and he will choose to meet

me again. Yeah, that's a beautiful story. And that being in spaces often kind of as that straight married pastor, it's complicated. And, you know, I think about like, why would someone erase that? Like, that actually does make me pretty angry. Like what, what it was worded in a way that every Christian should not have a problem with, you know, like it wasn't like borderline could be taken like in an affirming direction, or it was just like that queer people would find god like i mean i

don't yeah it just drives me crazy it i don't get it but so i'm glad man i'm so glad god redeemed that moment um even though i can only imagine how hurtful that might have been and i i guess yeah you know i've i've seen some stuff online where there has been criticism by acknowledging that that queer students and people are part of this revival has that been what's that been like like i i mean there's a couple of i mean and and twitter's accessible right i mean so it's yeah if you want to feel bad for the world and yourself just go on twitter for like five seconds but i mean but i i imagine you know lgbtq people in the church already have such a mean, the fact that you all are even at a church is like shocking. You know, like you have every reason to be like, okay, I'm done with this.

You know, like there's enough pain there. But to have that kind of just more just chirpy comments or whatever, it's like that's got to get tiring. Has there been, yeah, I don't know. We'd love to hear how you kind of responded to some of that and, and, um, how, how has the revival maybe giving you renewed strength, hopefully towards some of those attacks or. Yeah. I mean, you've probably encountered like the, the discernment ministry people who like spend their entire time trying to like call out wolves or bad church things or whatever um those people have come on full force when it comes to asbury and i mean one of my

professors was just telling me he's like you know some of these people are always gonna see this as like satanic or demonic because we're letting women preach upstage or something like that like there's this is never going to be good for some people. They're always going to try to like deconstruct it into pieces, which is true. But I had been like sharing like my personal experiences with the revival online. And at one point I was like so moved. I was in Hughes Chapel with a friend. I took a picture of some friends who were leading worship and actually, yeah, anyway.

took a picture of some friends who were leading worship and actually, yeah, anyway. And so I had like posted like, Hey, like it's day eight and my friends at the seminary are still leading worship. You know, so many celebrities or big name people or big church people could have been letting worship, but my friends are. And then I wrote, did you know, like women, people of color and queer people have been leading worship these last couple you know, couple weeks, which, or this last week or whatever, which is true. I mean, even in that, well, nevermind. I'm, yeah, I don't want to give anyone ammunition, but in these moments, like I have like friends who like, are like gay or like, you know, like women or like, just like from even different countries who've been able to lead worship. Um, And the university and the seminary has like been able to support them and like their ability to like their, and their worthiness to like lead people in worship and be in relationship with

God. But people grabbed onto that. There were some like big name people with like tens of thousand followers that like took screenshots. And then they started scrolling into my personal Facebook page and they found my testimony on YouTube and they clipped that. And so I've just had like this inundation of like, even this morning, I was just told about like a heresy watch YouTube account that like posted a video of me. And all these people are like, the fact that this guy is at seminary, the fact that they let him be there is a demonstration that this isn't a real revival. And it even got to the point where like, anytime the president of my seminary would post or the seminary would post anything, people would respond to it with like screenshots or links

to me. And they'd be like, is this your student? Is this your student right here? Do you like, are you going to get him in trouble? Like, is this your boy? Come get your guy. And so like, are you going to get him in trouble? Like, is this your boy? Come get your guy. And so like, that has just been exhausting, horrifying and overwhelming. But when the entire national attention is on a singular place, you will get all of these different people and bad actors and, but it's been tough, you know, it's difficult. I will say that what has been and has been my encouragement since the beginning is that I have this community of people here that like, will like, name me, will claim me, will stand with me. You know, I was like, I had like a full on like a couple days ago, mental breakdown where I just like was so heavy and so overwhelming. And I had one of my

seminary friends, she like quickly pulled up in her car, picked me up and we left and got sushi off campus. And it was just this moment of like, hey, like, it's all a bit much, but like, I want to check in on you. I love you. And so that has been, I've been so thankful for it. But it is tough. Like there's this thing to be said about a new revival moment, which was gained esteem through social media, which maybe hasn't happened in the past. You know, Asbury 1970 did not get aided by Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, Tik TOK. The Tik TOK topic of the Asbury revival has like 60 million views,

which has been like, that is just an insane. And misinformation is rife. Like there've been multiple prophets who are like, there there's one of the viral, maybe even some of your listeners have seen this. There's a viral tech talk. That's like,

there was a demonic possession and exorcism tech talk. And what's crazy is I was there that day. And this woman had a seizure while she was being prayed over and people clipped like a third party, like live stream of it. And we're like, someone was exercised. This woman is exercised, but she was just having a seizure. They pulled up an ambulance. She ended up being okay, whatever.

But as a result, like people who are not here have so many opinions and perspectives and thoughts about this. so many opinions and perspectives and thoughts about this. And it's just like zoomed through the entire United States and all corners and facets. And I don't think some of us were ready to encounter that. I don't, you know, I've been online pretty incredibly online for a few years, but I haven't experienced the personalized harassment and vitriol like this ever before um and my social media fast for lint could not come soon enough yeah i i've been up until recently been really disciplined with social media stuff i mean i'm on facebook maybe like four times a year like i'll post stuff but i'm not on it and twitter's been saying for a few years i just was like you know what it's it's pretty much a proven fact that you're less happy

the more time you spend on social media like i don't know anybody who could produce so it's like why do we do it well you know there's this addictive stuff but i feel like the last few months i've been a lot more actively kind of reading and stuff and and it's just such a cesspool dude it's so it just draws out the worst of humanity you know like i've even i've even had like people that would like pretty aggressively i don't say harass maybe harass would be the right term just you know just say really really hard negative attacking things but then on a few occasions i've actually met them in person be kind of like oh my gosh are they gonna like take a swing at me or something

and it was like a wonderful conversation it was like you know like it's just something about being in face to face with somebody that you just all that junk that comes out of the humanity on social media just it's i've tried to learn to not take it too seriously and and I have built up kind of a resilience I guess over the years and I you know my mute button is on rapid fire I mean I just if I see anything that just doesn't make me feel the least big I just mute them right away like I don't I don't need that you know I I get more like I don't know I've never thought about this but like when I see other people being harassed it almost makes me more angry than when me personally, because I, yeah, I just, I mean, especially, yeah, especially LGBTQ Christians. Like to me, that's just the, the, just the profound

ignorant theologically bankrupt statements that people make are just, it's just astounding. It's astounding. And yeah, seeing some stuff said, said about you is just like, oh my gosh, it just, it's just astounding. It's astounding. And yeah, seeing some stuff said, said about you is just like, oh my gosh, it just, it just drives me absolutely bananas. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry for that. And I'm, I'm, I don't know, I guess I, I've been in enough church spaces where there's a lot of, maybe it's still in the minority, but there's a lot of really, really, really neat, theologically conservative, straight, you know, Christian people and leaders and stuff that are just have huge, huge hearts for LGBTQ people and want to change the culture of the church. Like it's, and that's confirmation bias. These are churches that have me in and they wouldn't have me in if they didn't already have that heart. But I'm just, I'm constantly encouraged by where the church i think is headed i think again it might be a

minority but it's it's a it's a pretty silent growing minority i think in the church do you experience that i mean i i mean are you i guess i was gonna ask the reason it's kind of roundabout way of asking like are you you said you're out on campus, people know your story. Like, are you really widely, I mean, accepted? Is it just, you're just Elijah? I mean, or, or is it, do you feel still like there's always this kind of slow hum of uneasiness? You're not sure who's safe to talk to or? Yeah, I mean, so I came out my senior year of undergrad.

I shared my like testimony publicly to like chapel service, then posted about it. And then Asbury Seminary was like the first place that I like entered already being publicly out. And I had this like question with myself, like, will I go back in the closet? And I was just, I can't, I can't suffocate myself again. I can't like live under the weight of the mask you have to wear. It's just so exhausting. Not knowing whether people would want to be your friends if they like knew your whole story. So I like just like definitely was very open from the beginning of coming here. And there are two like religious cultural elements to like this space that maybe are different than

other spaces number one is that the wesleyan holiness evangelical or like more conservative church space is not ex-gay they're like very much not like you know uh platforming ex-gay ministry um a lot of like this idea that like hey identifying as gay is identifying with sin or like desire is sin itself it's like a very reformed idea and just isn't present here so the idea that like hey i experience same-sex attraction and the word for that is gay is not people might be ignorant to that but the second they find out in these like spaces they're like oh that makes sense and there's not really like uh there's not an argument about sexual identity language here um it just just doesn't come up uh in the same way i think what so that might be like the positive thing is if you're like in a wesleyan nazarene free

methodist united methodist like space like you're not going to be maybe encountering the same kind of like ex-gay work. And I'm not saying it isn't totally there because it definitely exists in different corners, but probably like largely it doesn't. But what you will encounter, unfortunately, is a lot of ignorance. And right now the United Methodist Church, which is this seminary I'm at right now, like turns out the most United Methodist ordinance every year, like 40% of United Methodist ordinance come from this school. So like, it's massively connected with the United Methodist Church. And the United Methodist Church is splitting over beliefs around like same-sex marriage is way more complicated than that. But like, that's the simple way of putting it. And as a result, the conversation about like

sexuality and gay people is like on everyone's lips all the time. And there's a certain, because this is a conservative school. And so it draws from like a lot of like the Southern, conservative school. And so it draws from like a lot of like the Southern, more conservative, um, United Methodist like churches. It's unfortunate that like a lot of people kind of view gay people as like this outsider enemy, these people who are kind of like trying to crumble their church, split it up. And so when I first got here, I did not know about that cultural background and I encountered a lot of very hurtful activity from, and there's also, we also get a lot of feed from like the more conservative, like Pentecostal charismatic, like schools come to seminary here because Pentecostalism comes from like Wesleyan tradition.

And so like, there's like at least like some crossover there. And those people definitely like still like ex-gay theology. So there's this like, and they like usually spiritualize it. So there's definitely this like, strain of like people who probably, even though the school isn't that way, are themselves more like kind of ex-gay theology leaning type people. And then there's this strain of people who are like from a very culturally conservative Southern space. And they like kind of just learn to really have prejudice against gay people as a result of that like background. And that my first two years here was very difficult. I had a lot of difficult conversations with people. I was unfortunately a lot of people's character development and I, uh, um, yeah, it felt very lonely and kind of like excised, uh, sometimes. However, more recently, I feel like I've kind of come into my own. I've built up like a solid relationship and community with people. And I think that

while I'm not saying it, I mean, even some professors have said some offensive things in the past, but it's nothing like I have a friend who's gay, who goes to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And, you know, a student will say something homophobic in class. The professor will laugh, agree with them, and the class will keep going. That isn't going to happen at Asbury Theological Seminary. Like if someone says something awful like that, like a professor way more often than not is going to call them out on it. And the other students are going to be like, I don't think that's appropriate. So while I can't say I've had the best time here,

I do know that I'm grateful for like some of the professors and community and even like the dean of chapel here, Jessica Legrone, has been like a massive supporter of me and that's been very kind. So it's complicated, you know, there's both sides, but in general, I, again, even though it's a hard time, I would say that we're probably further along than a lot of the evangelical world and like caring for sexual minorities. Yeah. I mean, all the free Methodists I've talked to, and I've personally had really great conversations with most, if not all your bishops, a lot of pastors spoken to a lot of churches and yeah, the spirit just seems so really committed, really biblically centered, committed to sound theology or whatever you want to say, you know. And as with the Reformed background, that took me some getting used to because we always looked at Wesleyans as like, oh, they're, you know, whatever.

But then, yeah, in this conversation, like I've had a really good experience. You know, it's been a limited number of people, but some pretty high up people that, man, when they're talking about the needs and how to kind of change the culture of the church and their heart for the conversation, like, I'm like, I've always been really impressed with the Free Methodist Church in this country. I mean, the Free Methodist Church is doing really well and probably much better than even like Asbury Seminary is doing. Asbury Seminary of calling, you know, is drawing from the conservative United Methodist wing, whereas the Free Methodist Church is like just is not having the same kind of like bloodbath conversation. So there's a way more open handedness to like figuring out how to better love and understand people because we don't have this like impending church split doom hanging above us. I didn't think about that. So those who are part of the conservative wing of the UMC have a distinct cultural context where they may be a little bit

of a pendulum swing too far, maybe given some of their fears and concerns. If you're from the reform background, you might have heard, oh, United Methodist, liberal, but the United Methodist liberal, but the United Methodist church is a massive umbrella from the furthest left you've seen in your life to the most fundamentalist right-wing Christian nationalist people you've met in your entire life. So it's very, very difficult to like put a finger and be like, this is what a United Methodist is because it's a huge umbrella. And as a result, has like a very like mixed bag of like people who are like under this banner and is, you know, ultimately probably why like this kind of fabric of the church is splitting of that denomination. Well, Elijah, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. And it was kind of last minute, just reached out to you a couple days ago. And yeah, thanks for sharing your heart

and super excited what God's doing over there. And I really do hope it continues to spill over in a different context, especially among younger people. It's just really cool to see, you know, Gen Zers just have this kind of renewal as part of their story. So yeah, thanks for giving us a firsthand insight of what's been going on. Yeah. I mean, I just want to return to the fact that it's been beautiful. I have personally seen people's lives changed. I've seen people healed of church hurt and have like repented of ways that they have not loved their neighbors. And there's so much beauty that's happened in the sacred space that even in all of maybe

like the most recent like pain of whatever that I've experienced, I can still look at these last couple of weeks and say like, hey, God did a work here. And I think he's continuing to do a work. So thanks for chatting me about it with me about it. But it has been a beautiful, exhausting, complicated, huge, all of the things. Great. As any revival probably should be. So, yeah. of the things. As any revival probably should be. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.