Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1061: A Christian Response to Asylum Seekers: Munatsi Manyande

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

Munatsi is the Executive Director for the Dash Network--a Christian organiziation that exists to glorify God by providing care to one of the most vulnerable populations in our community; people seeking asylum. In this fascinating and informative convesation, Munatsi helps us understand the great needs that exist in caring for Asylum seekers, as they wait in no-man's-land for their applation for Asylum to recieve approval. Learn more about Dash at www.dashnetwork.net.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Munatsi Manyandi. He is the executive director of The Dash Network, which exists to glorify God by providing care to one of the most vulnerable populations in America, namely people seeking asylums. Please welcome to the show the one and only Munatsi Manyandi. You know, I get a lot of recommendations for people to be on the podcast, you know, and I immediately, you know, I'll check out what they're doing. And sometimes it just doesn't fit or just don't have space in my schedule. But man, I looked at your ministry and I'm like, man, this looks really incredible. So thank you for coming on the podcast. Why don't you give us just a backstory about who you are and how you got into the work you're doing now?

Thank you, Preston. I appreciate you having me on the show. The story of Dash is one that obviously is near and dear to my heart, both as a believer, but also just from a personal standpoint. both as a believer, but also just from a personal standpoint. So my backstory in a minute or so is I was born and raised in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe was a small country in Southern Africa and raised in a Christian family. My mom even became a pastor when I was pretty young and so grew up in the church. And my mom also has a huge heart for the disadvantaged and the poor and people that have just been through really difficult life circumstances.

And so I grew up with my mom always ministering to people and trying to help, you know, those that were less fortunate. She was helping, you know, paying, you know, fees for kids to put kids through school and always helping, you know, widows, you know, to kind of find their feet after their husbands had passed away and things like that. And so I think just grew up believing that there was always a strong link between being a believer and actually looking out for those that might be disadvantaged. I left Zimbabwe at the age of 18. So I went to school all the way through high school in Zimbabwe and then got an opportunity to come to the U.S. to go to college. And so I went to a small state university in Missouri, just outside Kansas City, the University of Central Missouri. And I really just went there because my older sister had gone there, you know, ahead of me.

It was a real small state, small rural university where, you know, I tell people all the time, I don't, I think if I'd known how rural it was, you know, in advance, I probably would have tried to go somewhere else because I'd grown up in a big city and, you know, so that was an interesting experience. But I ended up loving my time at the University of Central Missouri. After finishing school, college, I moved back to Zimbabwe, met my wife, who's also from Zimbabwe, actually met her in Texas, which is where we are now. So, you know, came visiting and that's the first time we met. And not long after that we were you know getting engaged and getting married but we moved back to Zimbabwe you know after I was done with with college we

have three young kids all of them born you know back home it's been you know a really neat life and the Lord's been you know real gracious to us how my kind of story ties into, you know, the work that we're doing with Dash is that I, you know, always also had a pretty politically conscious mind and always been aware of what's going on around me and the impact of politics and things like that. And I think, to be honest, having spent several years in the U.S. as well, there was lots of things about the democracy that the U.S. is that I liked and admired. And that was very different from, you know, kind of what I'd grown up, you know, seeing. And so I think part of me, you know, wanted to see, you know, kind of a better brand of democracy in my home country, in Zimbabwe. And so that led to me getting involved, you know, with a group that eventually became, you know, an opposition party and moved back to the U.S. about six years

ago permanently with my family this time. As you know, we were kind of figuring out options to be able to stay. We started to learn about what asylum was and kind of what options those, you know, you know, that that created potentially for options those, you know, that created potentially for people that ended up in the U.S. that couldn't go back to their home country for whatever reason, you know, that led to, you know, me being invited to an event that was, you know, being put together by DASH, which is the ministry that I serve as executive director of now. And so I showed up there, you know, kind of heard a couple of asylum seekers

telling their stories of what had happened in their home countries and the impact of, you know, kind of bad governance and politics in their home countries and how that had, you know, put them in the government's crosshairs. And, you know, they'd ended up fleeing and, you know, get to the U.S. and, you know, you know, started to, you know, the asylum process because it wasn't safe for them to return. And in doing so, they started to, you know, discover that while the U.S. government does have an asylum process, you know, that allows somebody to petition the government to say, look, you know, I've got evidence that shows that, you know, if I go back home, I may not be safe.

So I need, you know, I need your permission to, you know, be able to call the U.S. home permanently. So the government has this process that's been, you know, around for decades. And, you know, when it works out and it's done right, you know, when you come out on the other end of it, you'll become a, you know, you become a U.S. citizen. So, you know, great, you know, policy, in my opinion, and one that I hope, you know, is never abolished because, you know, we are meeting people all the time that need help and, you know, need a fresh start. Challenge that we have now in the U.S. is that the immigration system is broken. I don't think, I think everybody knows that. And it's extremely inefficient and there's a lot of conversation. And sometimes it gets pretty political, you know, when people have these conversations.

Sometimes it gets pretty political, you know, when people have these have these conversations. But ultimately, what what happens is it's a broken system where somebody that is a legitimate asylum seeker that is, you know, needing that refuge from the U.S. government, you know, gets here and maybe eventually gets granted the status. But they end up being exposed to two or three years typically of potential homelessness because you can't work for, you know, for a couple of years when you're an asylum seeker. And, you know, you also don't have any access to any kind of government benefits or any kind of assistance. And so we've got this system in the country that says, hey, you know, if you really are in danger, you can come into the U.S. And as long as you can demonstrate that yours is a legitimate case, we can, you know, allow you to call this place home permanently. But for the

first two or three years, you know, good luck surviving because, you know, you shouldn't work illegally, but we also don't have any support for you. So that's essentially kind of, you know, the system that exists. And so DASH, you know, our ministry, DASH Network, was actually founded because, you know, our founder, you know, had a couple of young women come up to her who were asylum seekers that didn't have a place to live and were essentially about to be homeless. And so she started to kind of help them out and took them home with her. And eventually, over time, more people called her to say, hey, I need help. I'm an asylum seeker. And that eventually led to her approaching her church about starting a ministry. And the ministry eventually in 2017 became a standalone, you know, ministry nonprofit. And that was about the time that I, you know, came on board. And so I've been serving as executive director of Dash for, you know,

since about that. So fairly new. Thank you. That's super clear. Can you give us a definition? Like, is there a strict definition of an asylum seeker? You kind of hinted at it along the way. And I think most people kind of have a pretty good idea. But what does it take to qualify for an asylum seeker? That's a great question. And so essentially, somebody, you know, is defined as an asylum seeker if they can demonstrate that, you know, them returning to their home country would endanger them or their family in a significant way. And you typically, you know, you know, there are three, essentially the government kind of allows for three different, you know, if it's political opinion. So, you know, for example, you know, you live in a country where, you know, there's a brutal dictatorship and you hold, you know, opposing political opinions and beliefs and are vocal about those things. And unfortunately, we still live in a world where in a lot of many parts of the world that that can be grounds for you being put in prison, that can be grounds for you disappearing or you being killed or just being harassed in significant ways.

So political opinion is one. The second one is what they call religious opinion, right? So again, you'll hear stories of somebody maybe that lives in a country that is not a Christian nation, for example, or that's not predominantly Christian, and then they do convert to Christianity. And sometimes that puts people in harm's way because, you know, in certain places you die for that, unfortunately. Okay. And then the third one is what they call membership to a particular social group. So that means, you know, if you find yourself in danger because you belong to a particular tribe in certain parts of the world,

so maybe it's a minority tribe that, you know, that's been under attack by a different tribe for a long time. And so you're not safe because of that. If you find yourself, your life in danger for, you know, something like sexual orientation even, you know. So again, you know, I'm from Zimbabwe and Zimbabwe, you know, generally, you know, historically has not been known to be friendly to anybody that is, you know, generally, you know, historically has not been known to be friendly to anybody that is, you know, not heterosexual.

You know, in fact, our last president, I mean, was pretty vocal about that. And, you know, and obviously as a believer, you know, there's certainly conversations we can have around sexual orientation and what's right and what's wrong. And, you know, and I'm certainly, you know, good with having, you know, those conversations. What I do believe strongly, though, is that, you know, your sexual orientation should not be grounds for you to die, you know. And so sometimes, you know, there are people that, you know, end up, you know, here in the country because of their sexual orientation and saying, look, I don't feel safe returning because, you know, here are some documented, you know,

evidence I can, you know, prove to show that I've actually been in danger because of my sexual orientation. So that becomes kind of under that third group, which is membership to a particular social group. So if you come in and essentially can demonstrate, you know, any one of those three kind of issues, you know, your political opinion got you into trouble, your religious opinion, or, you know, membership of a particular social group, then you can petition the U.S. government for asylum. And asylum is basically you saying to the government, I can't go back home. And so I need a place to, I need a fresh start. I need a new place to call home. And so the government can grant you that status. Once you're granted that status, it puts you on a path to American citizenship. And you can basically call the United States home for good and kind of broken and needs improvement. And there's obviously this gap, two, three year gap where people are in kind of no man's land is an issue. I don't, I'm going to assume you have a better solution than I do, but do you find those three criteria like that alone is good? And can people typically demonstrate

that? I just imagine like what kind of like extent of like, I can imagine it'd be hard to get kind of hard evidence to convince somebody else of your situation. I mean, that sounds like a judicial nightmare, if not a complexity to really verify. I mean, you can get somebody that's like a leader of a drug cartel saying, well, the government's after me. I'm in danger. Or my tribe, my drug cartel tribe is being persecuted by the cops. trying to be persecuted by the car. There's all kinds of narratives that someone could, I'm sure, come up with.

But to demonstrate this is a legit case for all the, I guess, genuine asylum seekers, I imagine that can be difficult. Is it? So it is. And so that's why, statistically, when somebody is seeking asylum, I mean, the success rate, you know, kind of when you look at the global success rate in the U.S. is under 5 percent. You know, so under 5 percent of applicants of asylum are able to sufficiently demonstrate their claim and be able to corroborate with evidence and other people's testimonies and things like that. So it's an extremely difficult thing to, you know, to prove and to claim. Now, it becomes a lot easier

if you have, you know, good legal representation, because having really solid, you know, legal representation just helps you to be able to, you know, kind of flesh out the details and then also to figure out how, you know, how to actually prove and, you know, demonstrate what you need to demonstrate. So, what typically typically happens is in our line of work is we meet people, you know, all the time that, you know, just have been through some horrible, you know, circumstances and can demonstrate, you know, to a decent degree in our opinion. But if they go in front of an immigration judge or immigration officer with limited evidence, that, you know, that might not be enough, you know, for them. And so part of

what we're trying to do as a ministry is also to say, look, if you come to us and, you know, you have this need, you know, we're going to, you know, try to help you. I mean, the first thing we want to do is make sure you've got a safe place to live that allows you to kind of, you know, go through the whole asylum process without breaking the law, in other words, without working illegally. So that's kind of, you kind of essentially one of the main things we're trying to do. And then while you're in our program and we've given you a place to live and you're kind of going through these steps until you get a work permit, we want to make sure that you also get legal advice, legal representation,

because we also know that statistically that increases your chances significantly of being successful with your asylum claim. So you fill in the gap, that two to three year gap when people are just here but can't. That's just such an odd, like, here, come here, wait three years. Like, what does the government, do they acknowledge that this is not legit? Or what do they expect? Like, if you ask them, hey, what do you expect these people to do for two to three years? The government acknowledges it.

And you talk to any person, any politician, regardless of their political affiliation or beliefs, everybody agrees there's a problem here. I think where the disagreement starts is how to solve the problem is kind of, I think, typically, you know, where a big issue is. So my understanding of kind of why we have this crisis today is that, you know, so the United States has not had any broad immigration reform legislation since the mid 80s. Okay, so you're talking, you know, almost 40 years. And so the all the, you know, the major immigration, you know, policy that's, that's at work today, you know, hasn't been updated or revamped or reworked in, you know, in almost 40 years. And so, you know, once upon a time, there weren't that many people that were coming to the U.S. to, you know, seek asylum. And part of it is maybe that there weren't that many

people that even knew that was an option because, you know, if you're talking 80s and 90s, there was no internet, no social media and all of that stuff. And so, you know, the information just was not, you know, getting to different parts of the world as quickly or as clearly as it does today. So when the initial kind of the asylum, you know, laws were put in place, I think it was reasonable to expect that if somebody came in today to seek asylum, that, you know, the government probably could give them a decision on their asylum claim or asylum request within three to six months. And so if you were granted asylum, then, you know, within three to six months, I've got a social security number, I've got a work permit and I can start working and I can look after myself and start living my life in America. and I can look after myself and start living my life in America. Problem is that over the years, if you get into the late 90s and into the 2000s,

the Internet becomes more freely available, and so information starts to travel. And so now what starts to happen is there are people in Zimbabwe, there are people in China, there are people in different parts of the world that now, you know, have been persecuted are hearing about all these different options. And they think, OK, if I can leave, I'm going to try to leave. And I've been told that if I can make it to the United States, I might be able to get some relief there. So I think there's just more knowledge, you know, because of kind of the world we're living in today. Because of that additional knowledge and more people kind of thinking, OK, look, if I'm going to leave, I'm going to try to get to the U.S. because I also feel like, you know, you think about it, I think, you know, with the United States reputation for freedom and liberty and all that, you know, if you were,

you know, trying to, you know, had to flee your home country that's, you know, 10,000, 15,000 miles away, and you had to pick a place that you're thinking, okay, if I have to go somewhere that's not home, I think I want to go to a place that, you know, you know, is liberty, is freedom. And so I'm going to try to find a way to make it to the U.S. because if I can pull that off, you know, I may not be, you know, at home anymore, which which which is horrible. But at least I'm in a place where there's freedom and there's opportunity and there's, you know, all those all those different things. there's freedom and there's opportunity and there's, you know, all those, all those different things. So what that led to is that, you know, since the mid 2000s, you know, there's been kind of just a gradual increase in people applying, you know, you know, to come into the country and seeking asylum from the U.S. government. And as those applications, you know, have increased,

unfortunately, the government has not, you know, increased the capacity to process those applications. So, you know, the, you know, when you look at the staffing numbers, you know, increase the capacity to process those applications. So, you know, the, you know, when you look at the staffing numbers, you know, with, in terms of the government's immigration departments, they haven't changed very drastically in the last 20 years. In fact, a lot of times too, whenever a new administration comes into power and they're looking at kind of reallocating resources, a lot of times they've, you know, actually pulled resources out of the, you know, immigration budgets and reallocated those. So essentially the crisis that we see today has been kind of a long time in the making simply because we've allowed for a huge backlog to,

you know, to be created. And so a system that was designed initially to allow you to, you know, come into the country and get an asylum decision within a matter of months is no longer able to do that because of the backlog. And so now people have to, you know, wait, you know, years before they actually get a decision. And unfortunately, when you come in to seek asylum, you know, as soon as you submit your asylum application today, you do not get a work permit, you know, simply because you've submitted an asylum application. There's still a waiting period before you can apply for a work permit and all of that stuff. So that's, you know, kind of a lot of what's contributing to, you know, to the challenges

that we're facing today. So imbalance of funding plays at least a role. Like a lot, I mean, like I'm going to imagine there's just lack of personnel to process the paperwork and everything, which is due to funding largely, right? I mean, funding and also just a perspective that maybe this isn't as important as other things. I mean, I wonder, what if the government tapped into the $1 trillion military budget just a little bit? Right. Maybe $10 billion?

I don't know, just a little pocket change? Hires more people? I don't know, just a little pocket change. Hires more people. I don't know. Is that too simplified? So would you say that I guess the root issue is just not as high of a priority as many other things? Absolutely. I think ultimately I think there isn't really the political will to fix this, in my opinion. will to fix this, in my opinion. And like you're saying, there's, I think, a lot of,

there are a lot of, you know, other things that government and legislators are looking at that are considered to be more important and of higher priority. And, you know, I'm not, you know, it's not my place to say that's wrong or right, because I understand that, you know, life is all about trade-offs. You know, but I don't think there's the political will at the moment to deal with it effectively, because if there was, I mean, this is America. You know, I don't think there's the political will at the moment to deal with it effectively. Because if there was, I mean, this is America. I don't know many, many things that America, you know, when Americans have put their minds together, you know, towards something, things get done, you know. I want to come back to that, an immigrant perspective on America and the social issues. But does the system give priority to certain countries from which asylum seekers are coming from? Is there, for lack of better terms, equality there? Or is there other problems there? and petition the government for asylum, right?

But naturally speaking, it's going to be extremely difficult for somebody who's a British citizen, for example, to show up in the U.S. and say, hey, I'm here to seek asylum just because of what we know about human rights and all of that stuff in Great Britain, right? And so technically it's open to everybody, but what you'll find typically is that the vast majority of your applications are coming from certain countries. You know, you know, so there's a number of African countries that have, you know, where we see a lot of numbers. There's obviously, you know, countries in the Middle East and Asia that we'll see, you know, some good numbers from.

And then also, obviously, in the last 15 years, you know, there's been more and more people coming from Central America, kind of that Northern Triangle, that have been coming to, you know, to seek asylum. So anyone can apply. But what we will see, what we will find is, you know, depending on kind of what's going on globally, you know, sometimes there is some prioritization that will happen. So, you know, for example, you know, once the war in Ukraine broke out, you know, there were some kind of special measures that were put in place that allowed, you know, Ukrainian citizens in some respect, in some cases to be able to kind of fast track, you know, the process and come into, Afghan citizens after, you know, the U.S. Army, the U.S. government pulled all the, you know, the military out of Afghanistan. And, you know, and there were some complications there, obviously. So depending on what's going on globally, you know, from a policy standpoint and, you know, some of the foreign engagement stuff, you know, the government is capable of, you know, kind of giving, you know, kind of special dispensation to certain citizens

of certain countries. But that doesn't typically last forever. And it kind of, you know, kind of giving, you know, kind of special dispensation to certain citizens of certain countries. But that doesn't typically last forever. And it kind of, you know, it just depends on, you know, you know, the kind of crisis that that's being handled at the moment. But as a general rule, anyone from any part of the world that, you know, that feels unsafe has an opportunity to come and petition the US government. government okay so so as long as the the yeah so one country say one country over here another country over here i'm not gonna use examples because that's not the point but like as long as there's kind of equal evidence of conflict and legitimate you know reasons why they might seek asylum there's not like a priority given to certain parts of the world over others as long as okay i'm curious with your

own story how did you were you in that limbo two to three years like and what did you do when you were seeking asylum but weren't quite verified or given full citizenship what was that like for you so um you know for for me that limbo uh process um yeah mean, that's something that I had to deal with with my family for a little while. And so, you know, part of what was helpful for me was we actually had, you know, family that we could stay with for a little while. And so, you know, that it helps, obviously, if you're not under pressure, you know, to pay rent and that. So that was something that, you know, that I'm still very grateful for to this day. But spent a lot of time just sitting and waiting, you know, which was extremely frustrating. You know, we had some savings, but again, I don't know anyone that has two to three years worth of

savings, you know, kind of just sitting around. And so you're dealing with that insecurity, financial insecurity, you know, kids are in school, but, you know, there's a lot of needs that, you know, that need to be paid for. And you're kind of consistently worried about that. It helped, obviously, to have a really strong kind of attorney, somebody who was really experienced and who knew what they were doing, because that in some ways also helped kind of shorten the waiting periods to an extent. But there's still quite a bit of waiting you've got to do. And then eventually how I connected with Dash was, you know know actually being invited to an event that Dash was putting up and then you know came there and decided look I've got a bunch of time on my hands I might as well volunteer

so I started to volunteer with Dash as a way to kind of keep myself busy and give myself something to do and obviously didn't realize that kind of God was opening kind of a new chapter you know know, in my life at that, you know, through that connection. So having, for asylum seekers, having some kind of family or even just relational connections in the country already, that's probably a huge means of how they can survive. deal for sure because having you know people that are either that have emigrated ahead of you or people that are you know american and kind of know the system just helps you to be able to kind of prevent you know making you know certain mistakes that you might make but also you're you're kind of making decisions you know um you know being while being able to rely on some pretty informed uh you know uh advice and and so that's a huge so even with our work with dash you know what we'll you know if you you know go on our website you'll read how we'll talk about you know, advice. And so that's a huge. So even with our work with DASH, you know, what we'll, you know, if you go on our website, you'll read how we'll talk about, you know, the main, you know,

what we're seeking to provide to asylum seeking families and individuals mainly is housing, you know, number one, because, you know, we don't want you, you know, in the streets and, you know, you being homeless, if you, you know, if you're a legitimate asylum seeker. Number two is food, you know, again, if you can't work, you can, you being homeless, if you're a legitimate asylum seeker. Number two is food. You know, again, if you can't work, you can't pay for housing, you can't pay for food. And then number three, we talk about friendship or community. And that's us saying, you know, we want to kind of bring you closer to friends and kind of the body of Christ that can essentially substitute. You know, if you don't have any family, you know, but we can, you know, bring the body of Christ, you know, close to you. And now you do actually have

resources and relationships that you're building that could be very useful for the rest of your life in America. So that's the three main areas of relationships, housing, and food. Food, and then also, and then social services, social support too now. So that's, you know, additionally, but those are the main three that we talk about. So I'm curious, I mean, that's how many asylum seekers are you able to care for? I mean, I imagine financially, that's, that's a lot of money. I mean, do you have to raise a lot of money and the more money you raise, is that the more you can take on? I mean, is it, is it really, again, come comes down to a money question? For the most part? Yes. Um, so yeah, it's not a, it's not a cheap proposition now. I think we've

been doing this for a while, you know, to, you know, where we're kind of, you know, comfortable about, you know, how we ought to do it, you know, and what kind of service we're trying to provide, how we're trying to house people while still trying to be, you know, cost effective. And so, you know, a lot of my role as executive director is raising money, you know, cost effective. And so, you know, a lot of my role as executive director is raising money, you know, looking for resources. So I'm spending a lot of time engaging with, you know, churches in, you know, especially here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and kind of, you know, pursuing partnerships with them. And so we're relying on churches to kind of help us financially where possible, but also a lot of our heavy lifting as a ministry is done through, you know, volunteers. And so

churches are also kind of a great way for us to be able to find people that can do all our, you know, food pickups and drop-offs that can, you know, that can pick somebody up from the airport or the bus station when we need to bring them into our program that can, you know, take somebody to a doctor's appointment and things like that. So spend a lot of time engaging with, you know, with churches, you know, looking to kind of create partnerships there. And then also, you know, as we've grown, we've started to engage more and more with foundations that have, you know, capacity financially to support us. And then we also get a pretty, you know, significant, you know, amount of our budget now, about a third coming from kind of individuals and families and people like you and I that will say, hey, look, I'm going to go on your website

and I'll give you a hundred bucks a month or, you know, 125 a month. And I'll commit to doing that for the next three years or so. And so, you know, we're able to do it to sustain the ministry that way. And are you focused just on asylum seekers in the Dallas-Fort Worth area? Or are you like all across the country? So all our housing,? Our housing, we rent a bunch of apartments here in the Fort Worth area specifically. If you're wanting to be in our program in Dash, you have to be willing to move to Fort Worth essentially because this is where we have housing. We're receiving people all the time from different parts of the world. We have a

mom and child that we're expecting in the next week. That's right. And that's been based in the Phoenix area for the last several months. We've had people come in from Washington, D.C., you know, that had to, you know, that came all this way for housing. And so we'll help you out. It doesn't matter where you are, but you have to be willing to move to to the Dallas-Fort Worth area if you want to be in our program. willing to move to the Dallas-Fort Worth area if you want to be in our program. Now, if you're not able to move to the Dallas-Fort Worth area or not willing, we'll do our best to try to, you know, kind of connect you with maybe other organizations that might be closer to where you are, you know, to help you out. But the challenge is there's not very many. You know, you'll find a decent number of organizations that will provide some short-term relief to asylum seekers, you know, a couple of weeks of housing,

that kind of thing. But there's literally under 400 beds in the whole country that are long-term housing to asylum seekers. And by long-term, I mean, you know, you come in now and you can stay with us rent-free for as long as it takes until you finally get your work permit and can actually start to, you know, stand on your own feet. And so,. And so if we have less than 400 beds in the whole country to assist, we as Dash at the moment have about 50 of those beds. So you're talking about over 10% of the capacity in the whole country is with us here in Fort Worth. Another quick question I should have asked earlier,

what's the difference? This is going to sound ignorant, but I often sound ignorant on my own show. But the difference between a refugee and an asylum seeker. In Boise, where I live, we've got a lot of – it's one of the major refugee resettlement. Are they all – here's what I'm going to guess. You correct me if I'm wrong, that every asylum seeker would also be a refugee, but not every refugee would be an asylum seeker? Or is that too simplistic? So that's a really good summary. Yes.

So you've got it right. The major differences in how I try to, you know, kind of simplify, you know, for people to understand is, so both refugees and asylum seekers are people that have had to flee the place they call home and go somewhere else. And, you know, they're not able to go back, right? Because it's not safe. The difference is a refugee is typically somebody that's been displaced as part of a larger group. So I'll give the war in Ukraine as an example, since it's still kind of, you know, it's a very topical issue at the moment. So the moment Russia invaded Ukraine and the war started, you know, there were, you know, millions of people that, you know, were displaced from their home regions, from their hometowns that moved. Some moved to kind of western Ukraine and tried to stay there, but others also kind of ended up across the border in Poland and places like that.

And the United Nations was scrambling to essentially set up like refugee camps, refugee facilities and things to receive these people and actually give them a place to live and water and food and all of that. So, you know, when you've been displaced as a large group of people like that, you know, so somebody from Ukraine, for example, you know, would typically, you know, be treated more as a refugee. So there's kind of a more it's a larger group that's been affected and it's a larger group that's being assisted. And so what happens, you know, and the United Nations is kind of leading that whole process. And so the United Nations is then in conversation with the American government, the Canadian government, with the British government in Germany and Australia and places like that to say, OK, we've got all these, you know, 800,000 Ukrainians, you know, that need relocation and need a place to go. And the U.S. government and through the president will make a declaration and

say, okay, we are willing in 2023 to, and I'm just giving an example, we'll accept 100,000 of, you know, of those refugees from Ukraine. And once they've given that number, the United Nations is responsible for helping with the vetting process and all that stuff and determining who amongst the 800,000 people that are in Poland that are Ukrainian are going to be allowed to come to the US and essentially start over as refugees here in America. So it's a whole process. And then if you're one of the individuals that's been selected to come out of Poland and come to the U.S., you know, so you're going to come to Fort Worth as an example. You know, you know, you the government is kind of assisting with that whole process. They put you on a plane that you're not paying for at that moment. And you arrive at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport and the government has agencies all over the country.

airport and the government has agencies all over the country so you've heard of world vision catholic charities and you know other organizations like that who essentially are contracted by the government to receive you when you arrive and also kind of help you with your transition into into into life in america so when you come out of the airport at dallas fort worth international um you know there's a somebody from Catholic Charities, there could be a staff member, there could be a volunteer that's got a sign that's got your name, Preston, you know, written on it. And so now, you know, that's who you're going with. And they take you to an apartment that the government's paid for, for several months, that they've found volunteers and people to furnish and all of that stuff. And so they kind of move you into that

apartment. If you have a spouse and children, they help you figure out how to enroll your kids in school and all that stuff. But also as soon as you arrive, you're eligible to work, you're eligible to get a social security number and all that stuff. And so that whole process is kind of fast-tracked.

And then you also do get like several months of government funding. So some kind of monthly stipend as well, just to of help you because obviously if you arrive today, you're not going to find a job today. So you need a little bit of kind of a runway to kind of help you before you can be independent. So that's kind of the process when we. It sounds like it's way more beneficial to be a refugee than an asylum seeker who's not a refugee. I mean, that sounds bad to say beneficial. I mean, obviously, somebody that's been a refugee that's been displaced and ended up maybe being in a refugee camp in a foreign country for two or three years or five years, obviously, that's a horrible situation. But I think once you arrive in the US,

as a refugee, I think you've probably got a little bit of a better deal than somebody that's an asylum seeker. Because an asylum seeker now, and I'll give you the contrast. So an asylum seeker also, you know, has been displaced, can't go back home. And, you know, they're not necessarily part of a large group that's been displaced. So maybe because of your particular religious belief as Preston, you've had to flee or because of your particular political opinion, you've had to flee. So you found a way to get yourself out of the country. To be an asylum seeker, you have to get yourself onto US soil by yourself. So the government's not helping you with that process. Whereas as a refugee, you're getting help to get onto U.S. soil.

As an asylum seeker, it's your responsibility, you know, and you cannot request asylum until you're on U.S. soil. OK, and then once you're on U.S. soil, you know, you also do not automatically get a work permit and social security number simply because you're on U.S. soil. You know, you've got to go through a whole application process. And that's where you're subject to the backlogs i was talking about earlier and that's why you you know you now end up finding that people have to you know sometimes wait about three years before you're finally able to work and actually start looking after yourself so what we are essentially trying to do is kind of be for asylum seekers what the government is for refugees. Camp Rockmont is an interdenominational Christian summer camp for boys ages 7 to 17, and it's located in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina.

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okay, my name, Preston, that will waive the application fee for any Biolet program. Okay, so promo code Preston, waive the fee. Some restrictions might apply. Just visit Biolet.edu for more information. Is there some gray area on, because I would imagine asylum seekers are also coming from areas that are, have conflict. It's not just like, yeah, my neighbor is trying to kill me and I need to get out of here. There's something bigger than that, but it hasn't been,

it needs to be officially declared by the U.S. government. This is a conflict zone. Is that really a big difference? I think the United Nations has got to be involved in that whole process. So, yeah. So, I think that's one of the major differences. So, it's like Mexico, I don't think, you wouldn't be able to be a refugee from Mexico. But obviously, with cartel and this, that, there could be a lot of...

We've helped people that were in the country seeking asylum that were from Mexico. So, with cartel and this, that, there could be a lot of... We've helped people that were in the country seeking asylum that were from Mexico. Yeah. So you're 100% correct. So if you're from Mexico, you can't come in as a refugee. You can as an asylum seeker, and that puts you out of... You may be in just as much danger, but it's not a nationwide conflict zone. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, man. I mean, it's actually really helpful. Thank you for that. So that's where the gap is.

And that's where you guys come along and fill that gap. This is kind of off the topic a little bit, but it's kind of it's been a thread that's kind of underlined, I guess, this whole discussion. Like, as a U.S. native, you know, especially in the last couple of decades, like in this is kind of a politically polarized maybe observation but like depending on your circles which news outlets you listen to like you may get the impression that um the u.s is filled with just oppressive racism uh financial inequality um systems in place that keep certain people down where they can't see like it's it's um it sounds like a pretty yeah oppressive place to live, but then you're laughing. You've kind, like really disappointed when they find out that America is a corrupt place? Or is that really kind of a U.S.-centered perspective that people in other countries maybe wouldn't share coming in? Do you understand the question? I do. Yeah, I absolutely get it. So there are conversations

I'll have with some friends and family of mine, people from Zimbabwe or other friends from other parts of Africa specifically. And we'll kind of laugh sometimes and talk about how some issues that we hear people talking about and being upset about are kind of what we call first world problems. Where once when you're comfortable, you've got a decent place to live, you know, you know, when you're doing, when you're comfortable, you've got a decent place to live, you've got food in your belly and all that stuff. And, you know, you can probably start to kind of, you know, nitpick a little bit about, well, you know, this could be a little bit better and that kind of thing. And so I think the United States is a prosperous, you know, the most prosperous country in the world. And so I do think there's been kind of a little bit of that, you know,

almost people are so accustomed to being comfortable and to kind of having, you know, being in a society that provides so much that it can almost feed a sense of entitlement almost, or, you know, kind of a little bit of a, I'm 90% happy, but I think I deserve to be 100% happy, you know, kind of a vibe. And so, you know, the places that I've, you know, visited and kind of where I grew up and things, you know, we have family and friends that obviously, you know, are facing some very, you know, very difficult life circumstances because of the economy, because of the politics sometimes, and just, and then life is hard. I mean, scripture talks, you know, in the Bible, Jesus, you know, himself said, in this life,

you will have trouble, you know, that's just, you know, it's a given. I try to, you know, be very careful, you know, in having conversations around, you know, kind of the racism and, you know, inequality and things like that about, you know, in America, you know, because, you know, my perspective is a little bit different. Okay. I, somebody, as somebody who emigrated to the U.S., so I first came here to go to college, right. You know, so I don't have the, I don't carry kind of the historical baggage, so to speak, right. Of, of, of being a black man in America. Okay. I don't, my parents never lived in America, my grandparents, you know, so everything I know about the history of America, you know, with respect to race and with respect to slavery and all that is, you know, those are not lived experiences for my family or for me. Okay. You know, my perspective is obviously going to be

different because of that. Now I do understand. I mean, I don't know that I've met anyone that thinks that slavery was a good idea. And then I don't know that I know anyone that thinks that creating systems that are, you know, that disadvantage one group over the other is a good thing to do. I don't know anyone that thinks that. OK. But but having said that, America is still an incredible place. OK. I think that the American dream, for lack of a better term, is still very much alive. OK. You know, to share a little bit more about my own personal journey. Once I moved back with my family and started to get involved with Dash simultaneously, I was able to get involved with a small business that somebody had started that they were trying to grow. I was able to get in there and partner with them.

I work as executive director. I serve as executive director of Dash in there and partner with them, you know. And so, you know, I work, you know, as executive director. I serve as executive director of Dash, but I also run a small business. And that business, you know, has been growing. And, you know, it's allowing me to be able to do certain things for my family and for other people, too. We've got, you know, people in Zimbabwe that we're kind of helping with, put them through school and things like that. And all of that is, you know, quite honestly, to me, you know, things that are happening really because of being in America and also being willing to actually go in and put in the work, you know, and get to work. And so I don't think that the American dream is dead, to be honest. In fact, a lot of immigrants are still seeing America as the one place, you know, that you can go and actually make something of yourself, you know, even today. That's my perspective. That's probably the perspective a lot of people

around me, you know, will share. You know, I haven't had, you know, direct, you know, any direct kind of police brutality, you know, kind of thing happened to me that, you know, that I could speak of. You know, have I been concerned with some of the stuff that's been in the media? Absolutely, I have, you know, have I had my own worries about me and my kids? For sure. But it's, you know, I haven't, you know, experienced that. You know, we live in Texas, you know, we live in Texas where most of our neighbors don't look like me. You know, my kids are in school with kids that don't look like them for the most part. But our experience so far has been favorable. And we've, you know, my kids are in school with kids that don't look like them for the most part. But our experience so far has been favorable and we've felt felt welcome. And in many ways, we feel like we're also able to contribute to this society, you know, in positive ways.

And so, you know, so we're grateful. So that's my take. I do think that we're obviously living in a world where sensational, you know, sensationalization of stuff is a big deal, regardless of where you stand, you know, kind of politically and things like that. And so I think that's something we've all got to be, you know, really mindful of. But I think America is still a great place. I think it's still growing. There's still lots of opportunities. And, you know, God's blessing is still here, I believe.

Yeah, it's an interesting, I mean, yeah. And I know that whenever you bring up anything related to these issues, it gets so politicized and people have, you know, really strong opinions. And it's just, I mean, as I kind of like look upon the race conversation, I have noticed kind of maybe on a very general level, somewhat different perspectives from like first generation immigrants versus people who have, you know, lived here. And it's just a very complex relationship. I remember talking to a buddy of mine who passes a church in New York and he's got one of the most ethnically diverse churches in the country. And, you know, he says it's really interesting. I mean, you have this kind of like the, you know, the kind of white majority perspective and then you have people of color who have been here for decades, generations. And then you have first generation immigrants and then you have kind of the white liberals or whatever. And he says these are very different categories.

Like drawing perspectives across simply racial lines is just way too simplified. He says you're bringing in different ethnic backgrounds and stuff that it creates a very different, sometimes very complex perspective. So I'm curious, going back to Dash, how does the gospel factor into the work you guys are doing? I mean, obviously, I mean, and that's not a, the very work you're doing to me feels just like a bleeds gospel just by doing the work. But are you explicitly Christian? Do you see people like come to Christ? I would imagine a lot of people seeking asylum probably are Christians. But yeah, how does the gospel factor into your work?

Yeah, for sure. One of our board members, when he first got involved with Dash several years ago, I remember him saying that what he loved the most about being involved with Dash several years ago, I remember him saying that what he loved the most about being involved with Dash was he felt like this was one ministry where we all got an opportunity to literally be the hands and feet of Christ. And that spoke to me because I think that really sums up why we exist and the opportunity that we have. And so, you know, our mission is very Jesus centric. OK, we're trying to share the compassionate love of Christ.

That's why we exist, by meeting those physical and relational needs that, you know, that asylum seeking individuals and families will have. individuals and families will have. We're doing that because we want every person that we encounter to actually feel the love of Christ so that we can talk about Christ and why we're doing what we're doing. So if you're coming into our program, you don't need to be a believer. You don't have to be Christian even for you to come into a program. So we've served people that were atheists and agnostic. We've served people that were atheists, agnostic. We've served people that were, you know, you know, believers from a certain kind of denominations. We've also served people that were Muslim and, you know, Buddhist and all of that. And so you don't need to be a believer, you know, as a prerequisite to come into coming into our program. However, we are intentional about wanting to share Christ.

we are intentional about wanting to share Christ. And so, you know, you have to be willing to be in an environment that's talking about Christ and the environment where we're going to pray, you know, before we meet and do stuff, environment where we're going to share scripture and we're going to, you know, you know, just kind of have those conversations. And so, because what we are wanting is to be able to, you know, kind of do, you know, what, you know, one of the quotes that's attributed to St. Francis of Assisi of, you know, preach the gospel and if necessary use words, right? And so, you know, we're trying to preach the gospel by kind of how we're loving you, how we're meeting your physical and relational needs. And then also, oh, you know, by the way,

let's just talk about where you're at spiritually, because what we're also learning, too, is that the poverty, you know, that somebody faces when they arrive in a country and can't work for a couple of years, two or three years, is not just a, you know, financial, physical poverty, you know, that there's also a real spiritual poverty that only Christ and the Holy Spirit can, you know, can heal. And so, you know, we're trying to point people to Christ as much as we can. We have, you know, can heal. And so, you know, we're trying to point people to Christ as much as we can. We have, you know, in our budget a position that is specifically, you know, to hire somebody whose job is to almost kind of be like a dash chaplain, kind of pastor type person, where their job is just to kind of get to know every single resident and their families and get to know them and kind

of learn about how we could be praying for you and also be having the conversation around, you know, so here's from a biblical standpoint, here's, you know, what, you know, what you ought to be thinking about and praying about. And also that reminder that, okay, you're here as an asylum seeker and you've obviously been through hardship, but also kind of those reminders that scripture promises that we're all going to be, you know, go through hardship. And then there's also examples of people that went through some very difficult, you know, circumstances themselves, you know, in the Bible and how kind of God saw, you know, saw them through and all of that. And so we really are wanting to create, you know, that, you know, those opportunities for those conversations. So

we have Bible studies, we have, you know, women's, you know, small groups, some devotional stuff we're doing and things like that. Some of those stuff, you know, you's, you know, small groups, some devotional stuff we're doing and things like that. Some of those stuff, you know, you opt in. If you want to, you can. And, you know, but we try to encourage that you do, you know, because ultimately what we're wanting is to, you know, preach Christ. And, you know, I think the ultimate victory for us is not that we were able to give you a place to live and give you food to eat. But ultimately, we're able to, you know, point you to Christ so that you can make a commitment, you know, for your own salvation. Or if you've been in a place where, you know, spiritually you're not where you once were,

we want to create an environment that hopefully gets you reconnected with Christ so that by the time you've graduated from our program and moved on, you're in a better place emotionally as well and spiritually as well. Yeah. I would imagine that all the people you work with, their first entry point in the US, they are faced with a very extremely good picture of the church, the body of Christ, right? I mean, here's people coming along, a lot of volunteers dedicating their own time to helping them.

You're just embodying their God. Like you said, you're being the hands of Jesus in a real explicit blatant way. Like that's gotta be, does that really have a good impact on people that, um, might, you know, maybe they had, weren't raised in a church or maybe they weren't sure about the, you know, Christianity of America or, you know. So, I mean, that's, that's the hope. Um, obviously, um, you know, that's what we're hoping and praying for.

I think the reality is that's not always the hope. Obviously, you know, that's what we're hoping and praying for. I think the reality is that's not always the case. I think, you know, obviously, you know, the kind of the sinful nature of man, the fallen nature of man, you know, we will encounter sometimes, you know, people that are maybe not seeing things the way that we thought they would see things. And, you know, some, you know, kind of sense of entitlement a little bit. Well, you know, you guys gave me a place to live and gave me, you know, food to eat, but you didn't do enough for me to be able to, you know, send money back home to my loved ones or, you know,

things like that because there's always needs. So I think it depends, but quite honestly, the people that we've served that have, you know, kind of come in as more mature believers, I think, have really, you know, you know, seen the gospel in a different light and also seen God in a different light. And so we've had many people testify to say, look, when I arrived in this program, I was broken, you know, and not just physically and mentally, but also spiritually. mentally, but also spiritually. And, you know, the body of Christ coming around me and the relationships that I got into and the Bible studies and the conversations that I, you know, I was involved in and the prayer I received, I'm leaving this place now that I've got a work permit and I can look after myself in a much better place and much stronger spiritually. And, you know, I've plugged into this local church that I met through Dash and I plan on staying, you know,

with that church, you know, for as long as possible and things like that. And that's always a real blessing, you know, when that happens. But we are dealing with people and, you know, sometimes, you know, what we're trying to convey is not always received the way that we want. Humans are humans. Yeah. You partner with a lot of churches in the area, like a lot of churches that you're involved with. They like supply volunteers. And how else are churches involved?

Supply volunteers in a very significant way, but also supporting us financially in a very significant way. So we've got a good number of churches now predominantly in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. But we do have a couple of churches that are not in the area. We have a church in El Paso. We have a church in Mississippi that will actually do send us some financial support on a regular basis. And that's huge. We also will tap into churches when one of our residents finally has a work permit and they're ready to work and we're trying to find work for them. We'll try to tap into the networks too, because obviously churches are made of people and in churches, some of the people, their own businesses or, you know, know somebody

who's looking for somebody with a specific skill set and things like that. And so we'll try to, you know, tap into that network. But what we're also trying to do is create environments as well for the local church to kind of experience kind of, you know, kind of international missions without having to get on a plane. And so we're trying to also, you know, create environments for people to come and get to know our residents and kind of serve, you know, in very relational capacities. In fact, tomorrow night, you know, we're being hosted by one of our church partners in an event that we call our Dash International Worship Night.

So we do this once a year where we'll get together on a Saturday night and actually just have a worship, you know, kind of worship night, a night of worship. And a number of our residents are going to lead worship in their languages or, you know, kind of in their culture and things like that. Well, so, I mean, there'll probably be, I don't know, 10 different languages spoken and songs done in different languages at this event. And this is an event where we're kind of inviting all our church partners and everybody, you know, the body of Christ at large in the area to say, hey, come check this out, because this really is what we believe a glimpse of what heaven's going to be like, you know, when we finally get there. Because heaven will not just be Americans. It will not just be Zimbabwe citizens. It will not

just be black or white or whatever. I mean, we're all children of God and coming from, you know, different backgrounds, different languages and all that. And so I'm trying to also kind of give the local church a taste of that, just because, you know, I think it's good for all of us if we can experience it. That sounds awesome, man. Well, love the work you're doing. And thanks for, yeah, I've just learned a ton just in the last hour from all these questions I had.

And it just sounds, I just love, love gospel-centered, tangible ministries like this. I just, I remember visiting an incredible ministry in outside of Kenya and actually all across Africa called, oh, I got the blank on the name. I think it's CARE. They do a lot of like free medical, like surgeries as an expression of the gospel. And I remember the people there saying, you know, they say, we don't, we never need to convince people about Christ's love for them because we lead with demonstrating that. We don't need to say, come on, like, Jesus loves you, this invisible person in the heavens. It's like, no, they've done this, like, incredible work for free. And people are looking at them dumbfounded, like, why are you doing this?

Like, oh, well, let me tell you about the love of Christ. doing this, like, oh, well, let me tell you about the love of Christ. So when you lead with tangible embodied love, the verbal declaration of that love just comes really easy. You don't need to do a lot of apologetic, you know, convincing them. So love the work you're doing. How can people help out? I mean, again, I'm thinking financial gifts, volunteers, and even it's interesting what you said also, like if somebody has say a business anywhere in the country and like, Hey, I would love to employ some people once they do get a citizenship, like that, it sounds like that's a, to have those leads available would be good as well. Or yeah, go ahead. Whatever else, however else people can help.

You know, we, we, I tell people all the time, you know, that if you have a specific gift that, you know, you've gotten from God, a talent or a gift, there's a really good chance that we're going to be able to use it. In fact, you know, we have an in-house, our own kind of ESL program that we run in our ministry that didn't exist until, you know, one day I, you know, went and spoke to a small group at a church. And a lady came up to me and said, Hey, I'm retired, and I don't have very much money, so I'm not in a place where I can make any significant financial donation, but I have 40 years of teaching English as a second language. Could you guys use that? I'm looking at her like, could we? She helped us put together a program because we didn't have one before. And we were essentially just trying to refer all our residents to kind of other people's programs. And so please do reach out. We'd appreciate all manner of

financial support. One of the things we're working on right now is we're under contract to buy a 6.2 acre lot of land here in Fort Worth with the hope that we're going to be able to, in the next few years, actually build a number of kind of fourplex units that we can actually own. So we can move away from being tenants because at the moment, every unit, housing unit we're using, we're paying, we're just renting. So we want to own our own build, you know, own our own property, have all our residents living in one location, have our offices in the same place and classrooms and all of that, you know, in one place. So we're in the process of actually kind of, you know, working through the zoning, you know, with the city, because we need a zoning change to be able to close on it. So that's something, you know, we'd appreciate prayers on over the coming months for sure. But yeah, being able to reach us through our website, dashnetwork.net. You know, we're also active on Instagram and Facebook primarily, so you can reach us through there

as well as Dash Network. If you have questions, that's a really good way to reach out to us. But also, you can send an email from our website, send a note, and we'll always be able to call you and have a conversation. But really, just wanting to... We need all the support we can get. But beyond that, also just hoping that this conversation kind of helps people understand better what's really going on with asylum seekers and kind of the differences between asylum seekers and refugees. that the conversations are a lot more nuanced than is typically available in media and in conversations, just because, you know, sometimes I'll hear people talking about, well, we need to

just close down the border and do all this. And, you know, and so some of the solutions that, you know, that are out there sometimes feel like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And I don't think that's it. So, you know, just wanting people to hear, know and understand. I've been able to, in the last year or so, you know, get involved more in some advocacy work with, you know, elected members of Congress and things like that. Just, hey, look, we need you to understand this and we need you to understand that, you know, we think this could be solved by, you know, just making this one change to the law and just trying to engage as much as we can. And so, again, if you're connected to, you know, you're an elected official, maybe that you think, you know, we could have conversations with, we'd love the opportunity to, you know,

to do that. Well, Munazi, thank you so much for the work you're doing. And it was a delightful conversation. So thanks for sharing. And yeah, again, dashnetwork.net if anybody's interested in following up. And we'd love to see – we'd love to throw at least some people and hopefully some resources and help your way. Yeah, that'd be great, Preston. Yeah, thank you for your time. This has been great. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.