Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1063: LIVE from Exiles in Babylon: A Conversation with Patrick Miller

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

This is a live TITR podcast that Patrick and I recorded at this year's "Exiles in Babylon" conference. Patrick Miller is a pastor at The Crossing Church in Columbia, MO. He's also the co-host of the Truth over Tribe podcast and the co-author (with Keith Simon) of the book Truth Over Tribe: Pledging Allegiance to the Lamb: Not the Donkey or the Elephant. In this live podcast conversation, Patrick and I talk about the problem of evil, various highlights and challenges from the conference, and what it means to live as an exile in Babylon. If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!

Hey friends, I want to let you know about this year's Conversations in the Raw. Conversations in the Raw is a discipleship learning experience that follows the Exiles in Babylon conference. So this year at the conference, we're tackling several topics, including women in leadership, the future of the church, disability in the church, and multi-ethnic perspectives on American Christianity. And so Conversations in the Raw is an online learning cohort that dives deeper into these topics following the conference. You can sign up for one or all of the conversations if you want. And each cohort, they'll meet online for about an hour and a half to engage in honest, curious conversations with

a leader and other cohort members. And there's only three meetings. So it's not like an overwhelming commitment. Everyone who goes through conversations will receive a certificate. I know that some of you have jobs that encourage you to get like certificates, so you can do that through conversations. Also, this year, we're teaming up with Denver Seminary and Eternity Bible College to offer a four-credit option for Conversations in the Raw. I mean, that's crazy, right? For just $500, you can get three master's level credits from Denver Seminary or three undergrad credits from Eternity Bible College. You'll have to do extra work, obviously, but this is a screaming deal to get credit from

an innovative learning experience. Go to theologyintheraw.com forward slash conversations to learn more about Conversations in the Raw. That's theologyintheraw.com forward slash conversations to learn more about Conversations in the Raw. That's theologyintheraw.com forward slash conversations. Think deeply, love widely through Conversations in the Raw. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. What you're about to listen to is a live, well, it used to be live. It was live last week, a live podcast that Patrick Miller and I did at the Exiles of Babylon conference.

So yeah, it was on Saturday morning. Patrick came out and we just had pretty much no plan on what to talk about, but we did a live in front of the audience podcast conversation. We talked about the problem of evil, talked about the Exiles Conference, talk about several other things that came into our head at the moment. And we also addressed some live audience questions that came in. So that's what you're about to listen to. Also, for those of you who did not either attend the conference live or virtually, I want to let you know that we have the videos. We have the whole conference available to purchase at theologyNrod.com via videos. So if you go to TheologyNrod.com, you should be able to find, I think it's on the front page,

where you can go and purchase the entire Exiles of Babylon conference, which I, yeah, I thought it was really incredible. And God moved in some really unique and powerful ways. So if you're interested in checking out the conference, go to theologyintherod.com. Okay, please welcome to the show, the one and only Patrick Miller. What do you think, did that work? I don't know. Yeah, I put him on the podcast. Live podcast. Is that real?

And we're dressed pretty cool. I know, you got the memo. Yeah, I did this. Do you that work? I don't know. Live on the podcast. Live podcast. Is that real? And we're dressed pretty simple. I know. You got the memo. Yeah. I did this. Do you feel seen? I do. Do you ever not?

If you had done black jeans, I would have felt seen. Do you ever not wear black? No, never. Your closet's just, yeah? Zero. All right. I haven't bought a piece of non-black clothing in three years. Nice.

All right. Who do you think? Oh, it wasn't a debate, so we can't. Who do you think won? Oh, you so we can't uh who do you think won okay no i'm not answering that that's a lose-lose whatever i say there i i will say this what i've loved about this conference is that there have been multiple times because i've been out in the crowd with everybody else where i i've just felt so cringy like i just like i felt this tension like oh that was a that was a hard question or oh that was a that was a, that was a pretty good jab. Um, but that's what I've loved about being here

because I do feel like being exiles in Babylon equals living in constant tension. And if you don't feel tension in your church, like those kinds of cringy moments, I think that's actually where God meets you. And so I love being here where I'm feeling those moments and getting uncomfortable because I know it's God challenging me. Yeah i love it this is the first theology we've only done two but it's the first exiles conference for you i wanted to come to the last one i had a trip planned beforehand and i i almost tried to cancel it so what uh thoughts so far what's like how would you if you go back home someone's like hey i heard you went to some christian conference like what yeah describe it to me in a few minutes.

Like how would you? Yeah, you know, I think it's a, I had a professor in seminary and he used to say context is king. And he was talking about how you read your Bible. And one of the things I've taken away from this conference though is that context is king when you're living in Babylon because Babylon is your context. So I'm thinking about Michelle Sanchez's talk when she was talking about how we have a discipleship problem, which that used to really irritate me when people were like, you're talking about issues of justice. Like, no, you've got a discipleship problem. I go, whoa, you just completely sidestepped it. But she's making the point in her talk that we have been discipled into particular ways of thinking about race and ethnicity. And that

really resonated with me because back in 2015, as a guy who is white and grew up in basically entirely white spaces, God blessed me with a friend who became a mentor who had tremendous witness. And he grew up in almost entirely black spaces. And one of the things that happened, you know, I didn't use any racist words. I've never thought about myself as being a racist person. But through that friendship, God began to show me that context is king. And that even if I wasn't saying things out loud that someone would categorize that way, implicitly, I had been discipled by my white culture in a kind of, it's Babylon, right? Babylon's all about pride, ethnic pride. There's a sense of internal superiority because of the color of my skin or because of my racial background.

It's pride about socioeconomic things. It's pride about all this stuff. And he just so gently and patiently and kindly dismantled that part of Babylon in my heart. Yeah, that's good. And that was discipleship. And that's what I felt like here is we do have a discipleship problem

and we need to realize our context is Babylon. And if God can unravel that context and re-disciple us into the kingdom of God, and that's what I felt in every single talk. It's like, ooh, here's this topic I haven't thought that deeply about, but God wants to disciple me into it. By the way, we are gonna do some Q&A.

So go ahead and start popping questions in the Slido, either from me or Patrick. This is just, we didn't plan it. So we don't even know we're going to talk. We're just talking. So there's no like plan here. Everybody keeps asking me, they're like, so what are you guys talking about?

To be honest with you, I have no idea. We haven't even talked about it. I'm like, we'll see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're just kicking in the living room with people. But what about you? I mean, what was your big takeaway? I mean, what's the thing?

I mean, it's hard because if I say oh this is my favorite speaker everybody else is gonna say what the heck oh yeah but you asked me to say you wanted to date so now you're stuck um i okay okay no it's totally honest like i i pick the different sessions stuff i'm interested in something i think the church needs to hear about and i consult other people i'm like hey i'm thinking about this that what do you think so i it's not just a unilateral decision, but it's me and a few people talking and stuff. But it is largely things I'm interested in, things I think the church should be interested in. So the disability one is, and that's just really new. It's really, I mean, I'd always known about kind of a theology of disability. Some of the speakers

quoted John Swinton. Well, John Swinton is a major scholar of disability. He was at Aberdeen when I was there. And I remember I was studying like Paul and the Law, like New Testament stuff. And I heard about this guy doing like disability stuff. I'm like, how boring is it? Like, who does that? You know, I was like, and now looking back,

I'm like, oh my gosh, I like literally would like walk down the hallway next to John Swinton and like I'm kicking myself for not. So it's one of those things. Yeah, it's one of those things where, yeah, it's one of those things where like, I knew it was a thing out there, but then the last couple of years is saying, oh my word, I think this is such a crucial conversation

with the church to have. And so I've been having some guests on the podcast and talking to people, reading stuff. So I'm like, I want to do a session on the theology of disability. Now here's the tension is like, a conference kind of needs people. People come because they're interested in stuff. So I have those always have this tension of

I think this is important. I'm interested, but is anybody else going to, you know, come and listen to this? So I was a little, I don't want to say nervous, but like I wasn't sure how that was going to go. And I was beyond excited about how challenging and thoughtful and meaningful that section was. Do you have any thoughts? I mean, I brought Tony up here and he was like, yeah, we're like, now we're wrestling with this. And I talked to other people and they were really impacted by that session. Any thoughts on that? I was incredibly impacted. And I mean, again, that's what I'm saying. What I love about this conference is there's going to be something new that you haven't heard before. And I've been adjacent to some of those conversations, but I hadn't heard them explained and laid out.

And to be totally honest, there were tons of things said in there. I was like, that is absolutely helpful, and I totally agree with it. And I go, oh, man, I'm not sure about that. But I wanted that challenge. I wanted that friction so I can wrestle with it. I mean, the best thing, everything that was said was great. So now I'm saying my favorite speaker, I guess. But Cameron, when he was up here,

he said, you know, my body might not be healed, right? But you know what can be healed? My social belonging, my social relationships. And I thought if I just took that one thing back to our church and said, hey, we might not be able to heal bodies just like Cameron said, but we can heal relationships.

We can welcome people into our church in a way that they feel like they're a part of our community and they're given opportunities to lead. And they're just like everybody else. That for me is a huge challenge. Again, that's dismantling Babylon. That's realizing my context is Babylon. So I don't think that way. And now I need to think that way because that's the kingdom of God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, So I got to say something about Kevin Kim. So let me give you the true story. Okay, I've never heard, I've known Kevin for about 10 years, but known Kevin Kim, maybe longer than that actually. So I've known him for a long time. Don't know that, you know, we've hung out a lot of times

and I just, he's amazing, just individual. Never heard him preach. One thing he didn't mention, that I'll mention now is he was one of the teaching pastors at Menlo Park Presbyterian Church, one of the most influential historic churches in America, okay?

But he got tired, kind of burnt out of, I don't want to put words in his mouth, so let me not tell that story. Let me just say, you know, now he spent, his church rhythm now is like going door to door and telling people about Jesus with Francis Champ. Like in an area with heavy gangs and tons of like drugs. So he's like hanging out with like people like in the cartel telling them about Jesus. So he goes from like this mega church, super comfortable to that. And so I've never heard him speak before from a stage.

I just know his character. To me, I'm more interested in the character and thoughtfulness on stage, not are they a dynamic speaker, you know. But, oh, man. I mean, here's where I think he maybe fibbed a little bit. I originally wanted him at this conference, not Francis. Oh. I had Francis last year. I try wanted him at this conference, not Francis. Oh, I had Francis last year. I try to get new speakers every year. And maybe I'm tired or just raw or whatever,

but I'll just speak freely. Like, I don't want to, I have a blend of, you know, well-known speakers here and the ones that aren't well-known. I will never have anyone on stage that I don't think is thoughtful. I don't think is thoughtful. I don't care if they have a gazillion followers or whatever. This is not about popularity, big names, celebrity. That is not what we're doing at all. And people know I'm friends with Francis. I really don't want people to think, oh, I'm just getting Francis.

They're celebrities, typical Christian conference, get the big names, draw a ticket. That is 100% not what I'm trying to do. So all that to say, I said, no, Kevin, I want you. He's like, no, no, you, let me give you Francis's number. He literally was like, I have it. Like, no, I want you. He's like, no, I'm not. You, you want Francis. We went round and around and around. It's like a month. Seriously. And he was like, no, no, I will, I will tell Francis. So it turns out Francis had another, he's in Africa or something right now. So, So, and so I'm like, oh no, I said, I said, fine, fine. I'll have Francis.

He twisted your arm into Francis shit. And then Francis, like a month later, Francis said, oh, sorry. I didn't realize I have an engagement. And I was like, all right, Kevin, you're on. He's like, oh shoot. So he, I don't ask him, I go, when's the last time you've preached from a stage like this?

I think he said something like 10 years or something. What? And he's like – and I'm not going to do it for another 10. Like he has zero desire to be on a stage doing that. Well, it was amazing. Oh, man. I was blown away. Yeah.

I was – and that guy can plant a church and it would be a mega church in two weeks, I think. I was blown away. I was like, that guy can plant a church and it'd be a mega church in two weeks, I think. But he's going door to door telling people in gangs about Jesus. I mean, it's incredible. Yeah, no, it's really beautiful. Anyway, yeah, that was...

I mean, I knew he was going to be a good communicator. I didn't know he was going to blow the roof off of us. He blew the roof off. I've never heard so many people laugh so loudly. The beginning of that talk, I don't know if he practiced that, but every detail, it was perfect. That last debate thing.

So I, okay, let me tell a Joey Dodson story. So I'm at Aberdeen University, just started my PhD program and my PhD advisor, Simon Gathergill says, hey, we're getting a couple new students. So the way it works is you have, like, an academic mentor. He takes on about five or six students, and they call him our doctor father, our PhD advisor, our mentor. And he's like, hey, I'm getting a couple new people in.

One of them is this guy named Joseph, you know. So I'm picturing this, like, tall guy with a beard, you know, and kind of stoic. And in walks this dude. He's wearing, like like a beanie, he's got baggy pants. I'm like, who's this guy? Youth ministry is that way, dude. I remember seeing him like in the library, like I was in the library once I saw him kind of coming from a distance. I didn't know what to say, but dude, same thing. Like, just like, looks like a thug, man. I was in the library once. I saw him kind of coming from a distance. I didn't know it was him. But dude, same thing. Just like, looks like a thug, man. I was like walking close to him. I was like, grab my wallet.

Like, what are you? I used to take a wrong turn. So anyway, but then we get to know each other. And the dude like, I mean, like reads Greek like nothing else, you know? Like this is crazy, crazy scholarly. Like, so he's got this weird, like you could like, and he was a youth pastor for many years he's got the vibes yeah so i heard so i i saw i went to a church in scotland where he preached once i kid you not and i hadn't heard him speak before he walks out on stage with a greek new testament and his mic he always has a handheld mic you know yeah and he proceeds to give the

most polished like powerful thoughtful, thoughtful, articulate, no ums or ahs sermon. And I'm like, how did you do that? I'm like, why don't you bring a manuscript? He's like, well, I just write it ahead of time that I memorize it. So I'm pretty sure, again, I could double check with him. I think every word out of his mouth

during his 20 minute presentation was already scripted. Like that's word for word. Like, and he just memorizes it. I don't know how he does that. I don't know how he does that. I don't know how he does that. Anyway, so. It's a photographic memory. I knew you were in for a treat with Joey.

Greg, I knew Greg would light it up. I mean, the dude is, like, that's why I wanted him. And when Joey agreed to go head to head, I'm like, I think that's going to be a pleasant surprise to see these guys go head to head. So, anyway. It really was. And I feel like you and I, or at least me, I mean, I am the target market for, I'm an advocate of Christian nonviolence. So I'm the target market for anything that gets me

out of the violence question. And so, you know, I was so excited to hear Greg and hear Joey, because I, you know, I want to hear that debate happen. You know, I think one of the challenges that comes with these debates, I think this goes back to the whole context thing is, you know, I mean, even going back to, you know, when Greg began this project in 2006, this is all in the aftermath of 9-11. I remember 9-11. And all of a sudden,

this violence broke into our consciousness. And we had to figure out how to deal with the problem of religious violence. And that's actually an interesting way of framing it, like the problem of religious violence or the problem of violence in the Old Testament. And as I began to reflect on how that pressed people like Greg or Paul Copen or others into this dialogue around it, they came at it as a problem. I've always wondered, and of course there's something problematic about violence in the Old Testament, but I've always wondered if part of why we see it as a problem is because of our very suburban American, like, violence

broke into our consciousness. That's not to say that violence doesn't happen in America, but not that kind of scale of violence. It never happens. And we had to resolve something that other people maybe didn't have to face. I'm thinking about Miroslav Volf, who was very, very familiar, Croatian scholar. There was violence in the Balkans. Family members killed women that he loved, raped and harmed in profound, profound ways. And he has, I got this quote. I just got to read this quote. I'll put it on my phone. Are you going to text him? I'm going to text him right now. Hey, Miroslav. All right. Thanks, Miroslav. All right, here we are. This is what he said. And again, this is the context.

I just wonder if part of our problem with the problem of violence is our context. But this is what he says. He says, if God were not angry at injustice and deception and did not make a final end to violence, that God would not be worthy of worship. Now this is a guy who saw family members murdered. So he's like, I've seen injustice and I can't worship a God who does nothing about that.

He says, the only means of prohibiting all recourse to violence by ourselves is to insist that violence is legitimate only when it comes from God. My thesis is that the practice of nonviolence requires a belief in divine vengeance, and that will be unpopular with many in the West. So that's the context thing. Like we in the West, we kind of have a problem with that. But it takes the quiet of a suburban home for the birth of the thesis that human nonviolence, that human nonviolence results from the belief in God's refusal to judge. In a sun-scorched land, soaked with the blood of the innocent, it will invariably die. Other pleasant captives, like other pleasant captives of the liberal mind. That quote has stuck with me, is it's like my context is-

It's a different starting place. Yeah. Suburban affluence, and I haven't had to see that kind of thing happen. And that doesn't mean one person's right and one person's wrong, but I just always start asking the question, like, why are we asking the questions this way? Like, is God's justice a problem, or is it really, really good news? Yeah, that's good. I mean, I was like flip-flopping back and forth. I feel like Michael Scott, snip, snap, snip, snap.

You know, like in the back. I was like when I heard Greg Boyd. Does that work? It's been a long week, man. I heard Greg. I was like, oh, I almost felt bad for Joey. I was like, oh, man, he's got to follow that. And then Joey went, I'm like, oh, I felt bad for Greg.

No, you're saying the truth. In the back room, Preston's like, oh, man, that's really, it's great. That's a really good point. I don't know what Joey's going to do. And it was. It was good to hear the debate. Let's go to some questions here. Preston, which speaker did you find yourself disagreeing with the most and why? I don't know if I, I mean, I, you know me, I'll answer anything that,

unless I'm going to bring them out here and like, let them be able to respond. Hey, say it to me. Okay. Just say it to me. Should we pull over? I mean, I saw, yeah, I mean, I, I know, you know, Greg says he disagrees with me a lot on the theology. I agree with him more than I disagree with Greg.

But yeah, I would hold to Joey's perspective on that. I've written a book on nonviolence that talks about the Old Testament. And I think he even cites me in there where he disagrees. So yeah, so I would side with Joey on that. So in this specific conversation we're having, I would disagree with Greg on that. But we both agree on just Christian nonviolence.

We both agree on an annihilation view of hell. We very much agree on just the whole idea of being an exile in Babylon and weeding out our Americanism from our Christian faith. And those are big deals for me. So, yeah. All right. Oh, what are some sections or questions

you are thinking about for next year's Exiles? I don't want to spoil the fun, but I will. So here, don't hold me to any of this. You're making promises. Well, and I mean, let me just say, if we do, I mean, you know, it's every year we evaluate. Do we have the bandwidth, the time, the energy to put this on? So if there is an Exiles next year, then I think I definitely want to cover something related to sexuality and gender. Like, I do want to bring that back.

And that might be, you know, because I do know a lot of people really have, even though it's something that I talk about all the time. So it's like, man, to spend a few days talking about something else, you know, is in some ways a little refreshing. But I know for a lot of people, these are the primary questions they have. So something related to that, I really would love to do something on deconstruction in the church and have a range of speakers, including somebody who has deconstructed to tell their story. Here's why I, you know, I would love to do something like that. I would love to do something on, not on women and maybe even women, power and abuse in the church. Not so much like women in leadership question

like we did this year. It may include some of that, I don't know. But something on, I think that's just a huge, huge question right now. So those are some of the ones that I'm- Can I make suggestions? Yeah, go ahead. I've got two, yeah.

And I get to make them now. So I'm gonna do- Absolutely, you got the mic. Maybe this will be the deconstruction. I don't want to repeat it, but I would love something on de-churching because I do think it's different than deconstructing. There's a study that'll,

and it'll be released here over the summer, I think, that has shown that America has gone through the largest religious shift in its history in the last 25 years. 40 million, I think it's 40 million churchgoers have de-churched. Now here's the wild part. They have all the data. They've done all the research.

The portion of people that might fall into that deconstruction camp is actually very, very, very narrow. And I think the average deconstructor is a 54-year-old woman. Really? Yeah, you're like, what is that? It's a little bit surprising, right?

I'm just stating, and this is the, it is qualitative. Ryan Burge did the research. He's the number one researcher on the nuns. So this is not like, you know, some side deal. It's a real deal research. And the vast majority of why all these people are de-churching is because of mental health issues and belonging. That could almost be a separate mental health.

Yeah, mental health could be interesting. I just would love something about, well, there's a good clap. We want that. So I would love something in the context, I think sometimes we get really fixated on one part of the de-churching phenomenon. I'm like, hey, I wish we could have this whole conversation about the, you know, suburban divorcee mom who is just struggling to get her kids to any of the things that they want to do and doesn't have time for church and doesn't necessarily not want to be in church, but like, what do you do with that? So that's one of my- I mean, that would be kind of related to the women power abuse. I mean, maybe that could be like Friday morning, Friday afternoon or something like that. Yeah, that'd be good. I also want on technology.

Oh, I thought about that one actually actually. Yeah. Kind of like... Because we're in the digital Babylon. We got to talk about tech. You've done a lot of... I know. Okay, real quick. I'm trying to get invited back. Two really quick, you don't need to unpack it,

just two quick areas of technology that the church desperately needs to be thinking through. The two quick areas. Quick, okay. The first one is, well, they're both artificial intelligence, but the first one is social media artificial intelligence. We do not realize how we are being, I'm going to sound like some tinfoil hat guy, but we are being manipulated and controlled by algorithms. Our behavior is, what we're buying is, what our lifestyles are, how we think about the world. And these things are not by accident.

One little illustration that makes a point. Let's talk about TikTok. I'm not trying to make a political point here. But TikTok's algorithm works different in the US than it does in China. In the US, it is designed, there's a word for this, but it's basically how fast can I get you down a rabbit hole? Like, so you just give you more and more of the same

and it wants to get you into deeper, darker, more extreme content over time. Why? Because you stay fixated on it, right? In China, the way the algorithm works is every seven minutes, there's an educational video. Every 30 minutes, the screen goes black. Why? Because they know this app destroys you. And they don't want to destroy their own people. Right? And so it's really smart. This isn't like a conspiracy. This

is like well known. You can go Google it. This is all very real. I'm not. That's right, man. That conspiracy theories, I promise you. And so that's just one small example that illustrates the point that these apps are discipling people into a way of being in the world. And so I think that's a really important topic. I won't say the second one. I mean, we might have our fourth. Oh, man. Okay.

All right. So another question. I guess this might. What? Oh, the second one. Oh, you want this? Yeah. Well, the second one is actually like artificial intelligence.

So I posted this on Twitter the other day. Chat GPT? Yeah, so chat GPT is something a lot of, it's broken into the consciousness, right? People are getting on a chat GPT and it's doing their homework for them. And how cool is that? Unless you're a teacher.

But the power to create misinformation has grown exponentially. So I just did this the other day. Someone put into a AI photo image, I wish we had a picture So I just did this the other day. Someone put into a AI photo image. I wish we had a picture so I could show this. They put in Donald Trump arrest. And they let this image generator generate four different images of him being arrested. And they posted it onto social media. And I saw it. So I reposted. And I said, now, here's the fun part. You can thank me for this later. After you see this image, right now, you know it's fake because

I'm telling you it's AI generated, right? But five years from now, you will forget that it's fake. And you're gonna be in a conversation with somebody saying, you remember when Donald Trump resisted arrest? Well, that didn't happen, but you remembered it. And when you, it's not just pictures, it's not just videos, it's text. I mean, imagine someone being able to type in a fake story

and then produce within 10 minutes, 300 stories that they are then using AI, able to float onto 300 different websites. And so you get onto Google, is this a true story? And there's 300 websites all telling you the same story in a slightly different way. Like, we're entering the unreality machine. So I think that's an interesting thing for the church. And our churches, I mean, again, 19 of the top 20 Christian Facebook pages are run by foreign troll farms. So I read that. So it's just like they're discipling us.

That goes beyond putting N.T. Wright's head on Brad Pitt's body in Cyclops. I wanted to know if he used AI to do that. I went to ask Joey. I was like, that looks like an AI thing. I wonder if he did it. We should send that to Tom. Okay, Eric asks, where are you at in the egalitarian-complementarian debate? Are you leaning more to one side or the other currently? And people don't believe when I say that. I'm really not leaning. I would say this. I would say I'm at the very least what was described as like a soft complementarian, I think. I think, because there's so many areas I need to do a deep dive on.

The one that I did do a pretty deep dive on is prophecy in the New Testament. There's debates about what prophecy is, and then obviously debates about women teaching and preaching. So, but this is like the, well, I remember Tom Schreiner, a hardcore commentarian said, when I asked him like, what's the best argument for egalitarianism? He immediately says prophecy. Clearly, you have women prophesying in the New Testament and being not just prophesying, but actual prophets, Old and New Testament. And so the question is, is first century prophecy somehow akin to what we would call modern day teaching and preaching? And based on the research I've done so far, I do think, I don't think they're the same thing. Like when my preacher preaches, I don't say, that was a

wonderful prophecy. But I do think there are functionally, there's a lot of overlap there. So to me, that's a huge, and you have, and Cynthia brought this out, passages like 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, where you have, you know, people described as teaching and learning on a real general level. 1 Timothy 2, I've dug into it enough to know it's just really complex. So when people just cite 1 Timothy 2, like, wow, and they quote it in the KJV, I'm like, you obviously don't understand. You can't just cite the passage and not understand. Where's your word study on Othenteo?

What's the meaning of gar at the beginning of 214? How does 215, women saved by childbearing, fit into this? The background of it, there's just so much complexity there. So I really wanted to be patient and understand that passage. Because I don't. I have zero desire to just say, I don't kind of like what that's saying. So I'm going to find an interpretation to kind of convince myself.

Yeah, save my childbirth? I mean, that's a tough one, man. What? So, yeah. Can I ask you a question that follows up to that? And by the way, the thing that I appreciated most about what you said so far is, whichever side you're on,

do not hold it with a tight fist because there are really strong arguments on both sides. And that's the thing that bothers me personally the most is when someone asks, i've got the you know i've got the lockbox i've got all the answers do you ever worry like when you're saying hey i really don't know where i fall how you know where i'm gonna go that like um you're actually secretly and you're like subconsciously you are somewhere but you can't see it or or admit it and so and so that's like driving things because you're not saying yeah this is kind of where i fall i would say 100 that's like driving things because you're not saying, yeah, this is kind of where I fall. I would say 100%, that's absolutely possible. Yeah, yeah.

I'm not going to pretend like that's not possible. To my conscious knowledge, I don't have any like sociological, ecclesiological, there's nothing in my world that's like, I wouldn't lose my job, I wouldn't lose any real friends. I wouldn't, you know, there's nothing like riding. You lost all those friends already. I mean, if I was like teaching at Southern seminary or, or even, okay. On the

fuller seminary or something like, yeah, there's a lot of just writing on this for me. It literally like I'll wherever I land, I'll wake up the next day and nothing in my, in my life will change. And let me be clear. Cause some people say, I don't like when people describe this like, oh, it's, it's, it's a secondary issue. It's not a really big deal. Never heard a woman say that. So to me, I don't say it's a secondary, non-significant. I think it's a very, very significant question.

I just do think it has a deep level of exegetical theological complexity is how I want to treat it. Okay. Preston, you mentioned you have a love-hate. exegetical theological complexity is how I want to treat it. So, um, okay. Uh, Preston, you mentioned you have a love hate relationship with the church. What is your current preferred ways of doing church? Well, I, and I, and I, I did back, back down for the word. Hey, I, I, I, yeah. Um, but I did frame it that way.. I preferred way of doing church. My wife and I record a podcast where we talked about, a while back on my, kind of if I was gonna envision the kind of church I think best reflects

the New Testament. I said, I forgot what all those things I said. I think a very strong sense of belonging to where, I'll never forget Francis Chan years ago, sharing a story about a gang member getting saved. And then he's like, so excited to now have a new gang, a Christian gang, you know? And he's like, because my gang, like, we're, I mean, you need something at two 30 in the morning. You have 10 people at your door, you know, whatever your mother's in

trouble. Yeah. You have 15 guys who can go, hey, take care of your mom. And just that kind of, just that radical cohesiveness. And he got saved. He met Jesus. He's like, oh good, now I can worship the Lord and have a new kind of gang. And he shows up at church or whatever, just kind of like, what is like, my mom's in trouble.

Everybody's like, oh, I'm sorry, mom, I'm sorry. You know, like, and it was just this kind of like letdown of like, oh, I, sorry, I misunderstood the selling point here. I thought I was getting a stronger community. So just that kind of thick sense of belonging to where, man, if you, whatever the rhythm of church is, if you were gone for a couple of weeks, like people, you're people, you would be missed. Like you'd be like, yeah, family, family. Like, like if, like if if one of my kids wasn't around for like five days and she showed up or whatever i'd be like well hey what's up i'm like where you been like you know so i i don't and i know that's

idealistic okay that i don't expect perfection but something kind of like that that family environment that we see in the new testament and i I agree with, well, both Kevin and Matt, you know, said, I don't think size, I've been in large environments where I felt like a sense of belonging. This is fairly large, a sense of belonging here. I've been in small settings where it's super awkward and people, you know, so I don't think size necessarily is the controlling factor. Anyway, I mean, I was going to ask you a question because you're a pastor of a big church. So yeah, I am. So I don't think size matters either. I just, I'm a, no, God, this is why I said, I told Preston, can we just figure out what we're talking about? I'm going to say something

by accident. I didn't mean to say, I did not mean to say that. Seriously. Okay. Let's keep going. I'm being dead serious. All right. No, I was gonna ask you a question though. Because as I've talked to a lot of you out here, it's been really fun getting to know people. One of the themes I've heard is people who feel like they're excited to be here

because in some sense, they don't feel like they belong in their church at home. It's like, I've talked to multiple people said, I came here and it's like my shield went down. And that's beautiful. I'm like, the shield should never be up. So, I came here and it's like my shield went down. And that's beautiful. I'm like, oh, the shield should never be up. So, I mean, what do you tell people? They're going back to church.

They're still committed to the church. They just saying, you know, build your church. Jesus, it's yours, build it. And they're going back, let's build it. So what do you do if you're at a church and you don't feel that sense of belonging, but you know Jesus is calling you to build the church? I get this question a lot. I don't know. I don't know. I've struggled with this so much that I

don't have the kind of Gandalf, you know, here is the way. I don't know. I do think, I mean, so I value belonging, but I also value worshiping the creator God and being confronted by the teaching of God's word. I mean, so some of the traditional forms of church, I really hope I didn't get the wrong impression. Like, I think those do have value. Absolutely. If done well, right? I mean, there could be crappy sermons that are like,

it'd be better if you didn't preach that Sunday, you know? But yeah, so I mean, they're still taking the Lord's Supper. I was convicted last year of Francis Chan, you know, with the centerpiece. So, you know, at our church, I go to this church here, Calvary Chapel. And so we have of Francis Chan, you know, with the centerpiece. So, you know, at our church, I go to this church here, Calvary Chapel. And so we have communion every Sunday, you know? So trying to find value in just that act, you know,

and just being present, you know, just, yeah, being at the gathering of God's people, I do see intrinsic value in that. Like, I do think there is something cosmic happening, even if I show up and no one talks to me, I don't talk to anybody, whatever. Like, I think there is still value. It's better to be doing that than not doing that and staying home and trying to live an isolated Christian life. So, yeah. I don't know if that really answers. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there's a great answer to it. I mean, I was thinking about it

as I was talking to people and I feel like, well, I keep going back to something that Kevin said earlier, which is, you know, if we go back to our churches with a sense of self-righteousness, like, hey, I've been to the place and I've seen the glory of God and I've been on the mountain. Right, right, right. He was pressed and sprinkled. No, no one thinks that. No, but if we go back and we think I've had this, you know, amazing experience

and then we're self-righteous about the church that we get back to because it's not like this place or I see 10 different things that are a problem there, you know, we're always gonna be, like my judgment is the thing that stops me from worshiping. I've experienced this so much. Like I'm in a worship service and like something funny happens with the lights

or there's a song I don't like. And like, I go into critic mode and I'm like, oh, this song stinks. Like, I can't believe we're doing this right now, you know? And I'm not worshiping. I'm like, I'm self-focused. I've become totally self-absorbed in the moment. I'm self-concerned. I'm self, you know, inside here. And so, you know, I, that's what I've been thinking. I was like, if I can just go back with a sense of peace that I don't have all the answers and I just want to be a, you know, non-anxious presence in this place. And I might not feel like I totally belong, you know, in the spot that I'm in. That's okay. Like maybe God will somehow magnetize other people if they're

blind. We'll like plant a church in our church and we'll become a, you know, this new community that can just have life there. I don't know. And I just, I so, I just want to so affirm what Kevin Kim said so clearly. As somebody who has done a really different kind of church, right? They kind of blew the foundations to bits and said, let's rebuild this thing. And they did that intentionally. But to hear him say, give so much honor to pastors who are in the trenches of whatever traditional church they're in. I mean, I want 110% affirm that. And I never, I felt myself getting a little too critical of church

over the last few, I mean, over the last decade off and on, you know. And a couple of years ago, I said, you know, I, because I go and I travel, and speak at tons of churches all over the place, right? And every, literally every church I go to, I just meet, most of them are pretty big churches like your church and others. And I meet a team of incredibly humble pastors that pray like crazy, that know their people's names. They're humble.

They're having dialogues. They're engaged. You can ask questions in these churches. So this kind of stigma, which is true in maybe a lot of churches. I can't ask a question. I don't, you know, people, you know, like I was kicked out for, you know, asking a hard question or something, or just wasn't, didn't feel like I was belonging because I hold to a different theological doctrine on something. Like I've been in so many large mega churches or whatever that just aren't that at all. So I, I just, yeah, I just want to affirm

and, and yeah, just say a massive thank you to those of you who are in full-time church ministry, whatever that looks like. I mean, you guys are, the critics, as somebody who, you know, breathes the air of criticism, you guys get every day from people in your pew. That's the thing. I get it like on Twitter or whatever. It's like, whatever.

You're like, mute, delete, mock, you know, whatever. Send it to my friends. Hey, look at this comment, you know. That's the best thing to do with them, by the way. Oh, it's funny. Send them to your friends and don't respond. But, I mean, you're like pouring yourself out into people, pouring yourself out.

You see people face to face. You have them for meals. And then you get like criticism. Like that, I mean, thank you for staying in the trenches and serving people the way you are, you who are in ministry. Yeah, just one last little thing here. I was talking to someone else

and made this fantastic point. I'm saying this to anybody who's in ministry, which is by the way, all of us. And whether it's full-time or it's part-time or it's whatever it is, Jesus suffered for the church and now he invites us to participate in that suffering. And if you can reframe critics of a church that you love

or critics of what you're doing inside your church that you think is really good as participating in that suffering, I think that's actually the means by which Jesus is gonna make it flourish and grow and do something unexpected, you know? That's awesome. A couple more questions.

There's a couple of quick ones here. My hairstyling product, I have no clue. I don't know. I just reached in the drawer to throw stuff in my hair. Do you have, I don't know. No, it was for me. It was for you. I don't have the answer.

Okay, Elise Fitzpatrick is speaking. She's right back there. She'll be out in a few minutes. Okay, can you suggest ways to encourage my elders to take a posture of curiosity on these difficult topics versus saying we only wanna talk about, or versus saying we only wanna talk about scripture? Oh, in contrast to,

I thought it was like Bible versus saying, in contrast to saying we only wanna talk about scripture. As a pastor elder who's here and kind of likes this vibe, what would you say to that? How do you encourage their elders to take a posture of curiosity? I mean, part of me hesitates to answer because we started this church. And so we've always, when you're stepping into a church and the elders are already there, or if you're an elder and a pastor comes in, that's a very different circumstance than when you're there from the start and you're building relationships and those people become elders

who you're with for a long time, who you trust. You know, what I think I would simply say is if you can, you know, love those elders, have them into your house, show them hospitality, and when they are unkind to you, I mean, if you took like a five-year plan where you said, you know, for five years, I'm only gonna do 10%, 20% change that I want,

but I'm really gonna invest in these guys. And the ones who get repelled by your hospitality will probably eventually, you know, pack it up and leave and that's okay. And then hopefully over time, you're able to backfill in with people who do have curiosity. I just, in my experience, you know,

telling someone I wish you were more curious or I wish you changed this aspect of your personality, that doesn't really ever work. But if they love you because you've loved them really, really well, that's just a different way to approach it. And they're still probably not gonna be curious, right? They're gonna be like, I'm on your team

and I hate what you're saying, but I really like you. So, all right, whatever, let's go. Yeah, awesome. You guys give a hand for Patrick Miller. Thanks for joining us on Theology in the Raw. We'll see you next time on the show. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hey friends, have you been blessed or encouraged or challenged by Theology in the Raw?

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