Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1064: A Raw Conversation with Chris and Preston Sprinkle

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

Chris is the VP of Operations for The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender and the COO of Theology in the Raw. She's also the mother of our four kids and my wonderful wife. Chris and I talk about the joyful challenges of parenting and ministry, and we also debrief about our recent Exiles in Babylon conference. If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Chris Sprinkle, who is my wife, not my brother. Some people think she's my brother, but she is definitely my wife and definitely not my brother. Let's see. I should give some stats here. Chris is the VP of Operations for the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender and the COO of Theology in the Raw. I think that's the title that she has. Basically, she runs both Theology in Raw and the COO of Theology in the Raw. I think that's the title that she has. Basically, she runs both Theology in the Raw and the Center for Face, Sexuality, and Gender as a mother of our four children.

And I don't know, we live together, I guess. So Chris and I wanted to get together and just kind of debrief on the whole Exiles in Babylon conference that just happened a week ago. And just, we talk about life stuff. We talk about parenting. We talk about kids, talk about the future of Theology in Raw and anything else that came into our minds over the last hour or so. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Also, if you did miss the Exiles in Babylon conference, we do have a, you can purchase the entire conference, a video series of the entire conference at ondemand.theologyintheraw.com.

Or you can just go to theologyintheraw.com and you can find out how to purchase the entire Exiles in Babylon conference. So please welcome back to the show by popular demand, the one and only Chris Fray. Chris, thanks for joining me in the basement. How are you doing this morning? Doing great. Are you though? Well, yeah, it just took us a minute to get down here. Why is that, Chris? Oh, parenting, right?

What was my motto? Oh, my gosh. The funniest thing you've ever said to me when we were like in the heat of just not today, but another time where heat of everything with the kids. So we have four teenagers and you said to me, Chris, it is us versus them. And as soon as she said that, I laughed so hard and said, thank you. Is that how you feel? You feel like it's us versus them? hard and said, thank you. And so I was just coming down. So, so I was, yeah, 10 minutes ago, I was all ready for this podcast. I was like all ready to come down. And then one of our children, we got to, all of us got in a big fight with one of them and it soured the mood. And then I was

like sitting up there going going I don't want to come down here and do it and then I started laughing and I was like say that to me again Preston it's us versus them and then that just got me down here I was I mean I was bagged a hold I'm like yeah forget it let's just not do this I'm not in the mood to podcast right now I know but we were and And then just one thing. It's not easy parenting teenagers. Is that where you want to start? You want to start parenting teenagers?

It just becomes the power of wills. What do you think it is? Yeah. You guys are too much alike or too much not alike? Just with all the kids? Yeah. I think it's just... Well, let's begin. begin i mean we would both i mean and we're biased because we're parents of our kids but i feel like our kids are really amazing yeah i think so i think at the end it's just it's the power of of uh us letting go them wanting more

freedom it's just it's messy it can be kind of messy as we try to figure it out. So none of the things are like bad. And it's like, even like what we kind of were frustrated at each other. It wasn't, we both had point, like sides that were legitimate, but it's like, at the end of the day, it's one that is like, they're trying to pull away and be independent and do their own thing. And as they're doing it, it's a little messier because it's like, they're trying to pull away and be independent and do their own thing. And as they're doing it, it's a little messier because it's like they're maybe not communicating in the best way. And then we're learning how to let go and how for them to to to take freedom in a way that's

still honoring and i think there's i don't know if they would actually say they're trying to break free and be independent i think there's definitely some of that not break free just just be independent yeah yeah trying to figure out what it's like to still be under our so we have one you know engaged get married she lives in california we have two teenage girls at home and then my our teenage son just turned 14 so yeah especially the two older girls are driving they have jobs they they're very independent people i don't know where they get that from they're strong they're independent They're go-getters. They've got plans.

They have ideas. They have stuff they're doing. And so I think – and they're enjoying that more and more. And we raised our kids. We were – we homeschooled our kids. We did a ton of stuff together. So there was just like – yeah, I think – and they both – I just asked Josie the other day like, hey, did you like being homeschooled? And she says, I loved it. I'm like, oh, cool.

Awesome. Because somebody at the conference was asking me, do your kids like being homeschooled and she says i loved it i'm like oh cool awesome because somebody at the conference was asking me you know do your kids like being homeschooled and i'm like well there's one right there let's ask her you know so i think they like they definitely liked the upbringing but it was a lot i mean we were together are together you know a lot i think now they're they're very independent spirited like yeah which is great i'm so thankful we've we've raised them to we want them to be independent and want them to be have the strength to go on in life and yeah so but it's just it can be messy along the way yeah yeah so should we give the example or no i don't know i don't know what you're talking about go ahead i like this i like it when you're raw usually i'm the one that's

a little too raw i know kicking my shinicking my shin saying, don't say that. I know. I always prep them and say, hey, don't ask me specific questions on the air. Okay. So this would be the, so. We are going to talk about the conference too, by the way. We are. What's the almanac?

What were you going to say though? The illustration? Yeah. Yeah. What is it? I don't know if you're. Just from up there. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. You want to talk about it Just from up there. Oh, sure, yeah.

Yeah, you want to talk about it? Like, just to give an example of, like, what... So, the kids all go to a Bible study Tuesday night, and our friends who host it, they always provide dinner for everybody. And so, from the conference, I have gobs and gobs of extra food. Good food. Good food. Hawaiian barbecue. Yeah, we had lots of dinners at our house.

So we had so much. So last night I said to our friend, hey, I've got you covered for dinner tomorrow night. The friend who leads the Bible study. The friend, yeah, who leads the Bible study. I've got you covered for dinner for tomorrow night for all you guys because I have so much food. And he's like, fantastic. He didn't even say I got you covered. He said, would you mind if I.

I asked, do you have food for tomorrow night? And he said, I don't. I said, great. I got you covered. I have so much food. And he's like, thank you so much. So then this morning I said to my girls, hey, when you guys go to Bible State and I just make sure you bring the dinner that I'm going to... I have so much... I'm bringing dinner for... Or I'm making dinner for you all. So just bring it with you guys making dinner, you know, for, for you all to just bring it with you guys. And they were like, no, we already were planning on making our own dinner for the Bible study. And I was like, why have so much food? Let's use the food that I have. And they're like, well, no, we already had planned this with our friends that what we want to make,

we're going to the store and buying food and want to make dinner and we have something already planned. And so right there is the power of the struggle where it's like, so what I mean is like breaking free is just being independent. Like it's such a, like a great thing. They want to go buy food and cook the dinner and spend a couple hours. Yeah. Like that's like such a, I'm so proud of that. And then on just like guiding them to like, okay, well, let's not buy more food if I have already food. But then in their mind, they're like, that didn't make sense. They just had it in their mind of what they wanted to buy. We already wanted to. And so then it was just back and forth and being like, I don't feel good about buying more food when we have already food.

And then in their mind, they're like, but you didn't even check with us. And I'm like, I didn't know I had to check with you. I checked with the Bible study leader. I'm stressing me out again. I'm so stressed. And I'm sitting there like watching like a tennis match, like trying to suck down my first cup of coffee. Like, oh my gosh. What happens with all of us girls is that we all look to Preston and we're like, Preston.

Fix it. Tell her she's wrong. They're all looking at me. And then he has to be like Moses sitting on his throne telling everybody who's right and wrong. And then usually everyone's right because that's how he handles it. He's like, well, you were right in this and you were right in this. But then we all want to know who's righter. He's going to handle like Solomon.

Bring me the sword. Or that's what I meant. Not Moses. It was Solomon. Yeah. Like he sat on his throne and he would just. So anyway, so that was that. So then in the end, I was like, okay, make your, go by, do the things you were already planning on doing.

And they're like, no, fine, we'll do it your way. And then they switched it. And then they left. And then we sat for a few minutes. And then I said, tell me again. Us against them. Yes. Us versus them.

All right. That was probably as raw as I will ever be on this show because i do not like giving personal stories at all why why is that well i don't want to i guess it's our personal life and i don't want anyone feeling bad and i they could get really mad about even me telling this on the air so i yeah i don't think our kids mind it as much. But you've always been much more protective of personal stuff and life and everything.

Yeah. So I won't share any more personal stories. The rest. Not with the kids, but you can share other personal stories. Yeah. So how was the conference, Chris? Awesome. What do you want to start? So I guess let's just catch everybody up. So we had our second annual, uh, exiles in Babylon conference. We started last year in 2022,

which means we were planning the first one in 2021. So this is a few years now where we've been in kind of conference mode. It started as just an idea. Hey, let's just, I don't know, invite a few speakers to have some worship. I don't know. Let's just, let's just i don't know invite a few speakers have some worship i don't know let's just let's just yeah let's just do a conference just kind of create it as we go well turned out a lot of people started buying tickets and buying plane tickets and registration and more and more speakers were coming and agreeing to come and everything and it just the first one turned in to be a lot bigger than we were expecting so the room holds 11. We had 1150 in the room the first year. And so we said, well, heck yeah, we're going to do this again. So we planned a second one.

And the dates were just pretty terrible. We didn't realize it was the majority of people's spring break. Well, we won't do it again during spring break. We wanted to try it out to see if that is a better timing. It worked better with the church because the church had, we basically had access to the church the whole week and didn't have to share it. They have a school on campus, so we didn't have to share it with that. So that was great. But I think it, I mean, we were still at like 925. We were like 100 last year.

Which I don't even, numbers, I don't care. Yeah, which was great. But it just more, there was a lot of our local friends that were like, man, I wish you didn't do it during spring break and stuff. So we added. And then March, I mean, it was snowing and the weather was pretty terrible. Like the sun would come out for a little bit and then the snow would like fly in and wind. And so at one point, so right when we start off, we're

ready to open up the doors. We have all the registration bags. We always give really great gift bags. I mean, the gift bags are typically worth more than the cost of your ticket because we get so much donated. But we have all of our tables out ready for people to come, you know, check in and get their bags. And we set all the bags out, a thousand bags. And like we turned away for a quick second to like in a team like meeting or really quick before we were going to go out there and check in. And then hail and rain just come pouring in. And I about flipped out because it's hitting all of the books inside the registration bags. So I'm like, get the bags. And so we rush out all like 25 volunteers and just start grabbing

bags and bringing them under for safety. And then we had to wipe them all down. And anyways, it was like, I'm like, oh, here we go. Oh, man. We had, well, let's actually go, let's go back a few weeks before the conference. I am coming off of the, I was, you know, January through March was just probably some of the most speaking and traveling I've done in such a short amount of time, probably ever. So I was coming into a few weeks for the conference just pretty spent. And whenever I'm gone, it's harder on the family. It's harder on even ministry. We do ministry together.

So you have questions and conversations you didn't have with me, and I'm gone and everything. So we were coming into the conference just like pretty, pretty spent. And, um, we were, we were talking like, it's not when we do a third conference, it's if we even want to do another conference. Um, do you want to go back to that moment and how are you, how were you feeling about that? And then I want to get to like, how are you feeling now about possibly doing another conference next year? Yeah, I think it was, yeah, we're overwhelmed a couple weeks before, just with just all lot of big things that was like, this is just stressful. At the end of the day, this is just carrying a lot of stress on just, just making all this happen. And, and we want to, we always want to do everything well. And we,

so we put a lot of time into it and just in general, like I, I can't do things mediocre, you know, like I just, I have a vision for how it needs to be and I'm going to do that. So, um, so we do, you know, put a lot of time in, but yeah, we were just, it was, I don't know, let's just, we were like, let's not commit to a third one. Let's just see, you know, our life is like stuff we choose to do. Like we actually, yeah, we're, we are like, we don't have a boss hiring us telling us you need to do this, you need to do that. So if we get into a space where we're overwhelmed with ministry and yeah, it's just like, well, we made those decisions. So that's where like, let's not do that again, maybe. So, so that was a few weeks before the conference. And even during the conference, when

one of the questions came to me, like, you know, what are some topics you want to cover next year? And I even said, well, if we do another conference and I heard a big moan from the people. So how are you feeling now about doing another one? Well, the next morning when we woke up and, uh, Katri came over, if none of you guys met Katri, he's our, he's, he should be here right with us. He's he, like without him, there would be for sure. No conference. So, um, Chris Cautry, he works for eternity Bible college, a little shout out to eternity, but he does so much of the behind the scenes stuff.

So we're Chris and Chris. And so we always say boy, Chris, girl, Chris. Um, but he came over so we could debrief and right. When he walked in, we're like, we're totally doing a third one. even like a few a year you said yeah we might even do so we this is what i want to do i would do a smaller one in the fall like just a friday night saturday morning so two topics it and that will be in different cities like we could choose um better cities to to do it like more central austin we are talking Atlanta or Denver and, and then, and then still have like two, you know, great topics. It'd be more stripped down

then. And then still have the once a year here in Boise, um, probably in April though. I think we're going to push it back a little bit and then, um, do where it's, it feels more like, like we, we, you know, you get to know people by the end. It's like, there's a, the, the, what's the camaraderie or like the, yeah. Community camaraderie. Community is just really feels like, I feel like after three days of seeing kind of the same groups and kind of talking, it just felt like you get to know people a lot more. So I still want to do that once a year. So yes, I still want to, but like everything is just, well, how can we just make streamline things to easier, smoother so that we don't feel, you know, and I think most of it is just, we need now that we can kind of know like how, like what we need help with, it's a lot easier to put people to help

with those things. So yeah, I definitely want to just streamline it better to get people to help specifically with things that will, that will make it just so that we're not two weeks in wanting to not do it again. I think it's hard. Well, let me just real quick on that. Yeah. So we are, and this is all brainstorming stage, you know, but like if we did do a one day, one day meeting, like a Friday night session and then a Saturday morning session and, and, or maybe not Friday, Saturday, but, or maybe Friday, Saturday, whatever. Um, but do kind of an evening session, a morning session. like an optional something in the early afternoon but we we want we want to make it where people can fly in only have to spend one night um but we'd want it in a more central location so i mean yeah like a denver atlanta i think it was street hymns that said okay it's time to take this on the road and i feel like we're both like yeah we gotta we gotta do more of these elsewhere too you know and i feel like we've we've had that conversation even like this past year, what it would look like to take it on the road. But when he said it, I was like, I think we need to do, but just let's just do more like a couple minis throughout the year, like in different places.

And then. Yeah. So if, I mean, I'll just throw it out there, I guess. I mean, we are looking for, if we pursue this kind of idea, we would need a church that, you know, holds, I would say at least 1200, preferably like maybe 1500. I think the turnout would be probably pretty good for something that's, you know, less committed, especially if it's in a big city. But we would, here's the rub with us is like, for those of you who have been to Theology in a Raw or listen to the podcast, you know, it's not everybody's cup of tea. who have been to Theology in a Raw or listen to the podcast, you know, it's not everybody's cup of tea. So here's where, I don't know, we want to be sensitive. Like a church that wants to host this, I just want to tell them up front, okay, you're going to get 50 emails critical for hosting

this. Are you okay with that? Because we quote unquote platform people that other people don't like, and we have controversial speakers and we have this, that. And we want to roll the dice and do things that are mixing things up that are more raw than normal. And we know that a lot of Christians, even churches, especially some of the bigger churches, I don't know, like they tend to be a little more conservative and get nervous if, you know, whoa, you're having that person out. So we just wouldn't want to put a church through that, nor do I want to put up with, you know, like at the last second, the church saying, hey, we got to pull the plug on this because we're getting too many emails about people complaining about you having Greg Boyd speak, you know, or whatever.

So we would need a church that was like, no, we know your vision. We totally believe in it. We are all in. But also we're not looking like we don't we don't actually i think to help the church we're not looking to like partner with the church we just want a church to be able to open up space and let us handle all that you could even say hey look we're not we're not partnering with this thing we're opening up our space we're letting them use the church um because i don't yeah sorry well because it it

like this is what we're trying to do is have like our vision for Theology in the Raw is that we are having diverse conversations and we're trying to model and show what it looks like to have conversations and love one another. So we guarantee you that there's going to be people on stage that you might not like agree with or might not. But what we're hoping that we'll accomplish in that is that you will learn how to, that people will learn how to love better, to think deeper, I mean, like our motto and, um, and create a culture that is not so divisive. So we, we can't have anybody over our heads because you do so much research. I mean, it's not like you're flippantly grabbing people, whoever you want to put on stage. Like you have done your homework. You have got phone calls in. You're talking, if there's anything that you need to check into, I mean, you check into it. You are having all the conversations. So you're not like

missing anything. So when someone's like, why would you do that? You're like, well, I could tell you why, because I have a very specific reason for that. So we couldn't, yeah, we wouldn't be able to have a church that would be checking what you're doing all the time. But. Yeah. I mean, I did that quite a bit with several speakers this year. Yeah. I know if you wanted to name them, but. No, I could. I mean, it's very public. I mean, initially, you know, Matt Chandler went through a lot of stuff in the fall.

And so when that all went down, I immediately reached out to him, reached out to people at the church. I read. Elders. I read. Elders. I read. I read.

I mean, scoured legal documents and stuff like I did my due diligence. I didn't. So I, you know, I know Matt. I love the guy i think he's got an impeccable character um absolutely is committed to to christ in ways that i i just is so humbling and impressive so but you know people could say well you're blinded by a relationship and i said no i totally get that that's why i'm gonna also check with other people you know and so yeah i i was like hey i i don – if somebody is living in unrepentant sin, then, yeah, we're not going to put them on stage.

Unless they're a Christian or not a Christian, which we – you know, I think next year we might have some people that don't claim to be Christians for various reasons. So – In the deconstruction topic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So one of the sessions we want to do next year is on the church and deconstruction. And one thing I really want to do is have somebody who has deconstructed. Rather than have a bunch of Christians and pastors talk about people who deconstructed. I want to have that too. But I want to have people who say, okay, I'm deconstructed. Here's why. And I want to listen and learn from actual deconstructors. So yeah, so we're, yeah, it's not, again, it's not everybody's cup of tea. Not everybody we

have on stage would I recommend to preach at your church on a Sunday morning. So, I mean, the first conference, 2022, I was just really blown away. How did you, give us some thoughts on this last one that we're still recovering from? Um, yeah, I, I feel like it's just setting just a tone and it's setting a culture of what I, I, but we both, I always want to say myself, cause it's not just because you do that. I do, but really believe in what we're doing and what God's called us to do. And I think that just really just solidified it in my heart again to just really believe like, man, I believe God is calling us to do this and is in this. And it's not like we are just bored and we don't have anything else to do.

And we're like, what should we do with our time? And let's, you know, put out a conference. But it's, I think it's really setting the tone for the future in our church, churches that we've just seen in the last several years between politics and COVID and everything, like, you know, abortion and just so many topics that has just divided and ruined families, ruined people, like churches that, um, I just feel like let's stop this. Like, I just, I just want this stopped. So yeah, I think it just really solidified it. For somebody that wasn't there, because most people listening weren't at the conference, maybe give us a little taste of kind of what were some highlights for you, things that stand out,

maybe some surprises or even conversations you had with people like what were because you the thing is I'm back in the green room on stage and I talked to as many people as I can but I'm not out in the what's it called the hall with the foyer whatever yeah whatever the thing you know but you were talking a lot of people what was the kind of response yeah I mean, just, I heard a lot of people being able to say that I'm finally in a place where I'm free to think critically and think on different with my questions and ask questions that I don't normally feel the freedom to be able to do that and just be in a space where you know, other people are feel like in the same as far as asking questions and, and, and being okay to admit that I'm thinking through this. I don't know where I line up and where I have everything figured out and I'm open to learn more. And to, and so I think a lot of people were just saying that, that just feel so freeing to be in a place. And then I think people are always thanking you. Thank you for opening up my mind to some things that I didn't know what to ask or didn't know

like the side or how to, what would I say to this? Or, you know, do you just help them to think even the things that they don't know that they're supposed to think? And I think the theology of disability, multiple people said that. They kind of were like, not super jazzed about it, to be honest. I mean, admittedly, they were like, I mean, maybe it'll be. And they just were just blown away at what they didn't know and didn't think about, but how important the topic is in our churches. But also, too, just like you can take all the things that we learned from that topic and you apply it in all the other things.

I mean, you can apply it into the LGBTQ conversation and you can apply it to, you know, missions or just all the things that are, like, kind of diverse and just knowing, like, learning how to love and really care for one another. Yeah. like learning how to love and really care for one another. Yeah. Yeah. That was, I think, I think it's pretty much across the board that people were most surprised at that session.

Yeah. That was one. I mean, I, you know, I, I said this on stage at some point that like, you know,

that, that was the one that was most probably most excited about and also most nervous about most excited because it's been really new to me. And so it was, I planned that session largely because I'm like, I don't care if anybody else is interested. I'm interested and I really want to learn. I think this is a super important conversation. And I do think the church needs to have it. And so I knew deep down, it's not, didn't have the kind of sexiness that some of

the other topics have. It's not as, as public, you know, but I'm like, well, that's, I think that's wrong. like we need to actually make it more public so going in i was really excited about it but i'm like it wouldn't surprise me if people weren't that into it yeah and yet by the end of that one i think people shed more tears during that one than any other session our camera guys um daniel olsen shout out amazing all the camera stuff that all the pictures you see anywhere is all from Daniel Olson. He's an amazing photographer. And he said he wept for like an hour during that.

He just couldn't stop crying. Oh, me too. At one point, I just lost it. Just, yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah. So that, and I even pulled, yeah, I was talking to Tony Scarcello. Well, by the time this podcast comes out, I think he will have just planted a church.

I mean, it's been months in the making, but he brought his church planting team out. And he admitted, he's like, we almost skipped a session because we stayed up late and we're tired and everything. But we came and then they were just blown away. And so I pulled Tony up on stage to just kind of share a few minutes about, you know, what they're thinking, how they're processing. So, yeah. I have one regret from the conference. What's that? Personal.

Oh, yeah. I do, too. It's the same regret. So, Preston, you're always asking me, like even before this, you're like, I really. Please clear my name from this. I want you on stage. You told me, how can we get you involved on stage and doing something? What interviews do you want to do?

You even said, maybe do you want to do one of the interviews on disability? And I don't really want to get on stage. I am totally fearful. I was sitting there one time. I'm like, why would I be scared to go up there? I'm like, because I'm afraid of y'all is what I was thinking. I'm scared of people. Like, there's the backlash that you get. And even this, you know, I just like people are critical, which is, you know, not a bad thing, but I just opening myself up to get criticized. I

just don't feel like doing that. Admit it. So I'm like, so I really am like more, I'm not fearful to talk. I'm more fearful of what comes out from it. And so. Oh, really? Yeah. Because I feel like. So when you're talking on stage, you're not nervous? I mean, maybe a little bit, but I feel like that I can get through it.

It's just, yeah. What did I just say? And what, how are, how am I going to get criticized? So, so when you would ask me, I'm like, ah, maybe I'll think about it. And then I'll think about it. I'd be like, nah, I don't need to. You have plenty of other people that could do a great job. I don't need to.

And you kept saying, like, you just, you want me on there just so that also just have a presence that we do do this together in that, you know, I'm not speaking like you are, but at the same time, just even this kind of stuff, we have these conversations, like, what are we doing? It's our ministry together that we believe in and want to do. So I was like, nah, but I'm like, if there's something specific that would be very specific to me needing to do, but if it's something that anyone else can do and are better at doing it, I don't need to. So I said no. And then like the very last song when the conference was ending, I literally felt like God was like, you need to get on stage. I

have something I want you to share. And I was like, no, no. You know, it's like trying to talk it out. My heart was like beating out of my chest. That's how I knew it was like the spirit, like really prompting me, like, you need to go on stage. I want you to share something. And I was like, I was fighting back and forth with it, but I knew that the Lord was saying that to me. So I was like, I can't like say no. So then I texted you, you were back in the green room because there's worship. And I texted you and I was like, I think I want to come out and close it. I have something I want to need to share. And then I put my phone down because I didn't wait to hear like your response or anything.

I just put my phone on because I was worshiping. And then I, in my mind, I said, if it's meant, like if God wants me to do it, it'll happen. And Preston will call me up or something. Well, your phone was on airplane mode, so you never got it. I was about to go back on stage. And so you closed it out. And then I was like, oh, maybe I wasn't supposed to. That's totally fine.

Like, I didn't need to. I wasn't supposed to go up. But then later on, I was like, man, I feel i i missed an opportunity of what god wanted to share i so wish you would have just walked up on stage i and that's and that's my regret as i felt like i probably i needed to listen we did you interpret my lack of response maybe i didn't want you originally no no not that you didn't want to there wasn't maybe god god didn't want me to you know so that's my regret i can share it here if what I felt like I, because so when I was, like, as I was worshiping, I just had this vision and I do get a lot of

pictures of just, and I always feel like that's God really, you know, opening my mind up to what He wants me to see. But I was picturing in a little, some of this is fictitious, which we know that, you know, that's, it's creative fictitious ways that, so it's not like, has to all be biblical, right? I mean, not biblical. It's not unbiblical. It could be abiblical, just not in the Bible. I mean, it's against what's in the Bible. Right. So I had this picture that we're all standing at the gates, ready for the gates to open of hell. Sorry. Whoa, sorry. Gates of heaven. Sorry. Whoa. We're all standing there and like

tons and tons of us. And we were like, just so excited and ready to be able to enter into heaven and to the gates. And I started looking around and everyone was kind of looking around at each other. And then we all started saying, we're so sorry. We're so sorry. I'm so sorry for treating you the way that I did. I'm so sorry for, I didn't mean to say that. And then we spent like five minutes before we're supposed to walk into heaven. We spent like five minutes saying how sorry we were to one another. And this is the part that I'm saying is fictitious in the sense that I don't know if we're going to be doing that right before we walk in.

And then I just felt the Lord say to me, let's not spend the first five minutes before we're supposed to enter in God's kingdom by apologizing to one another. Let's get it right before here. And so I felt like my charge was like, as we have these conversations, what Preston and I are trying to model and show is that loving one another and caring for one another, even when we disagree, even when we don't come in the same place, but treating each other like humans and still being able to, like, that's what we model at the conference when, you know, the egalitarian and the complementarian are totally against interpreting things in different ways.

And yet they're having, going out and having, they hung out, like going to have a dinner the rest of the conference together and enjoying each other. And I just was like, let's let's start this now. Let's not have to go apologize to one another like in the end. Let's just get it right beforehand. So that's and I was like, that's what we're doing here. That's why we come here. That's what we're trying to accomplish.

So we're gonna have lots of different topics and some topics you might not be excited about or, or into, or, I mean, hopefully, you know, everyone is cause we're choosing right topics, but in the end, what, what is our vision for theology in the raw? And it's that is being able to be kind to one another, think deeply, and then just treat each other with respect and care. And let's not have to just keep apologizing to each other in the end. Dang. That's good. I wish my phone was on airplane mode. this episode is sponsored by Biola University Biola is consistently ranked as one of the nation's leading Christian universities it has over 300 academic programs at both the undergraduate and graduate levels which are available both in Southern California and online with leading

academic programs like business film science and, Biola's biblically integrated curriculum and spiritual formation also helps students grow closer to God and gain a deeper understanding of scripture. In fact, I was just on the campus of Biola touring the campus and talking to several deans and professors, and every single person I talked to was so utterly passionate about making Christ first in all things and instilling Christ-like virtues in the hearts and minds of their students. I mean, honestly, I was so impressed with how Christ-centered the entire school is. So at Biola, students become equipped for living a thriving life and career. They'll also learn how to articulate their Christian beliefs.

And most of all, they'll be prepared to serve as God's instrument in their communities and around the world. Now, through May 1st, 2023, if you use the promo code Preston, okay, my name, Preston, that will waive the application fee for any Biola program. Okay, so promo code Preston, waive the fee. Some restrictions might apply. Just visit Biola.edu for more information. Hey friends, are you a Christian parent with a kid that identifies as LGBTQ? Or do you know somebody who is? Look, I know these relationships can sometimes be challenging and raise lots of questions for both you and your kid. This is why my team and I at the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender created Parenting LGBTQ, a video-based discipleship

experience that helps parents to love and walk with your LGBT loved one as Christ would want you to do. There's 11 sessions that talk about things like how to begin approaching the LGBTQ conversation, how to respond when your child comes out, how to navigate questions of faith with your child and navigating partners and weddings and much, much more. There's loads of testimonies from parents themselves and from LGBTQ kids. So you can learn from both sides of the relationship. We've also included a ton of supplemental resources that go along with all the different sessions.

This resource is geared towards parents, but honestly, I think it would be very helpful for any Christian that has an LGBTQ loved one in their life. So to learn more, go to parentinglgbtq.com or you can visit our main site at centerforfaith.com. That's parentinglgbtq.com or centerforfaith.com. Do you have a speaker or moment? Well, we talked about the disability section as a whole, but maybe another speaker or moment that really stands out to you um that you're taking with you and it's hard to like highlight maybe a good speaker because it could throw shade on everybody else yeah like what's your favorite

speaker and you're like oh this guy lots i i i feel like ellie starting us off what his his intro talked starting us off was very impactful for me. He just talked about just the generations being like, his grandpa, he looks to his grandpa as plowing through what he's doing now, doing the same types of ministry and faithfulness like he talked a lot about just the generations being faithful. And that was really impactful for me because, and it just made me cry because I was like, that's where you and I are at. Like we have, I want to be, I just, I was thinking, I was like, man, I want my grandkids

and my great grandkids to look up and say, man, my grandma and my grandpa or my great-grandma and great-grandpa was, like, changing the culture of the church and was faithful until the end. And just so I got super, just the way he put it was, if you haven't, if you weren't here and you didn't listen to it, you guys should the buy the recordings because it was so like i mean there were so many you know so many of the talks but it was really it was incredible you remember that or oh yeah yeah i mean yeah i was i was thinking actually the same thing i'm not just saying that like i that that yeah whatever i hear i've heard a few people now not just at the conference but just in in life like talk about their their dad or their grandpa just being a model of faithfulness and just seeing seeing how the kids sometimes they don't appreciate it when they're young but when they get older they look up and say i want to be like

my grandpa i want to be like my dad or whatever. And like, it's like, yeah, it just gives me motivation to want to like set that pattern now, you know? And we talk about that a lot, just even like as parents, like, what do we want? What would we want our kids to say about us? And what would we want our grandkids and stuff? And then whatever our answers are to that, like we need to live by that. And I think one of the things is just courageous. Like, right.

I mean, I think that's for you. Like you're courageous. Like you are plowing through culture in a courageous way. You're not afraid to ask the questions, to think, you know, and then just loving and loving well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so to me, I look at two things with like different speakers. Like one is just the power.

Well, like the power of the presentation and then the content and how it fits into the overall vibe. So I'm looking at it kind of through various lenses. And Ellie is just off the chart communicator. I mean, the guy is just incredibly gifted and and i've gotten to know him you know a little bit over the years and just solid character and just yeah i just love having in their street hymns i mean so so one thing we've we really value uh art um you're way more artistic than i am but i i i value art and so having street hymns you know know, give some several, he did like three different spoken words that kind of represent the various topics. And, um, I love that.

I would like to keep exploring how can we bring in the arts more to the conference? Cause I've just, I don't, I think it's to me is a little, not, not, not bad, not bad at all, but like, it just a little too predictable and boring to have talks and then worship, talks, worship, talks. And that's why even having conversations, even like pulling people up on stage at the last second, like Tony or whatever, just like. So I think that we're trying to mix it up that way. draw upon and harness the full complexity of our human gifting and, and, and touch people with all their sensories and all their complexity. Cause if it's just a content dump,

like that's great for our minds, but what about our other sensories are, are, you know, our hearts, our feelings, our emotions and everything. So even like street hymns,

doing a spoken word where he had the thing where the audience was participating with the, with the lights and everything. Like, I just, I love that. I just, I don't, I want to keep exploring how can we make this a holistic embodied human experience for people that goes beyond, I guess, what we typically do every, every Sunday morning, you know? Um, one of the things that I was just thinking, so I'm going to forget it, but, um, that got me thinking was one of the questions that somebody

asked from the audience was, since we have so much diversity on stage, why do you think that it's like 95% white, the audience? I think it's less than that, but 80%. It's not as diverse as the stage. The crowd is way less diverse than the stage and less diverse than I think my podcast audience. Right. And so we were like, they asked, why do you think that is? And that was really, I mean, I guess I hadn't thought about it. And then it got me thinking, and how do we change that? Cause I don't want that. Like, I, I just want to continually work hard at how can we just don't want it to be like, wait, so I don't know. So I will be working this year until next year. Just try to figure out what does that look like? How do we, you know, is it a matter of like

specifically inviting, you know, 20 people from a church that like, you know, or I don't know, making it available or just kind of what, what did somebody, Eugene Cho, Justin Gibney, actually Justin Gibney, Eugene Cho, they all, cause it was in the middle of our multi-ethnic perspective session. So I was in the college with four, you know, one was a native, native American, Korean American, African American, and Latino American. So, um, it So it was, the question came up and I said, what do you guys think? Because I had that last year, I was actually really shocked at how, how the audience was way less diverse in the stage. Because I was always told like, you diversify the stage and everything will follow.

You diversify the leadership and everything will follow. So I said, great. And so I'm, we're a hundred percent committed to having, um, uh, that's your biggest thing. Oh yeah. You're, you're, I, it is a, it is, I mean, and, and, and just to be clear, how do I want to word it? Like I, I, because the secular approach to diversity is kind of diversity sometimes over content or character for me, it's like, no, because I believe so deeply theologically that the kingdom of God is diverse, that thoughtful, engaging people are across the board,

male and female and different ethnicities. So I'm not finding people that are ethnically diverse as if that is an intrinsic, like that qualifies them to speak whatever. It's like, no no i know there's loads of awesome voices out there that are incredibly thoughtful and wise and whatever that are you know that represent ethnic diversity so but yeah that that's a that's that's a non-negotiable for us there are our to the best of our ability the stage will be diverse both with men and women even age diversity, theological diversity

within Orthodoxy, I would say, and people of different ethnicities. So, sorry, you were... Well, no, I was just saying, so if anybody has any ideas, I would love to hear it, because I do want to always be aware of that and try to... Justin said, you know, I forgot, I don't want to put words in his mouth. You guys can go listen to it. But yeah, that reaching churches that are largely, you know, black churches

or Korean American churches, whatever, like it'll take time. Like actually that was, it was really positive. They said, hey, just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing what you should be doing, but it may just, it may take time. Like people, there's a brand new conference. People don't really know what it is.

You know, they heard about it from a distance and Eugene said, you know, come into Boise, Idaho in March. People are like, I'm sure that's like my cup of tea. So, um,

that may be even changing it to April would, would help with some of that. But, um, and, and maybe doing some one days in different areas, actually. Yeah.

Maybe, maybe we do a one day hosted by an ethnically diverse church or um yeah maybe that's part of our answer there so that when we do the big one in boise they already have a taste of what it's about um yeah um okay this is a personal question for you i mean you get so you get so many requests to be on the podcast more. I think people love the first year when you came on stage, you had a dialogue. I think people do want to hear more from you. Do you feel like that's something you want to step into?

I know you have zero desire for the stage, for the microphone. you have zero desire for the stage, for the microphone, for like, yeah. But you also have, I think, you're very gifted in many areas that can be more upfront and not just behind the scenes. And I don't, even the word just there is not accurate because like theology in Iran and anything I do, any book I write, anything I say on a podcast, any ministry I do would not exist without Chris. You are running, I mean, the organizations. And I feel like I have the easy part. I just come to my basement, you know, half asleep and hit record and do a podcast. But all this stuff in the back end, you're managing all that.

Well, even the topics and stuff, right? I mean, we spend hours and hours in our hot tub or in conversations where we're, you're, we're talking all about it. We're like, you're bouncing things off me or like I'm asking questions. So it's not like, I don't know any of the things you're talking about or not interested in. And I'm just interested in just the practical, you know, get it, making everything work. But it's like, I feel like I'm very involved in whatever you're writing or speaking on and stuff. So. So do you, I mean, because I know you, you are very good at the back all this stuff that's behind the scenes, the planning, the orchestrating. Do you have any

desire to do more upfront kind of ministry? I don't, but I think it's, again but i think it's again i think it's out of fear and i think i i think i have a lot to say but i'm okay only saying it to the people in person in front of me you know like i feel like my relationships my friendships and people that i have like like, you know, like, I mean, we'll talk deep and, and I'll offer advice when I have it or thoughts or those, but I, I, so I don't need to like, I don't feel like I need to share any of my thoughts to massive amounts of people. I can, I'm perfectly happy with sharing them with whoever God puts in front of me. But I, so I do feel like I have lots of thoughts and lots of things to say. And I do think I could be helpful to people, but I just don't. Is it just a criticism?

Yeah, it's a criticism. And then kind of the pressure that comes with that. And I just, you know, I see that all from you and you can handle it. I probably can't handle it as well. I mean, I get my feelings way hurt. And, you know, you don't necessarily or you're able to, you know, let it roll. And to me, it does affect me. So I just, yeah, so I don't really want to do that.

But I've also, my prayer always is, but I don't want to only do what I want to do. I want to do what the Lord wants me to do. So throughout the conference, I mean, I always pray it, but I was praying it again. Like you would have to truly show, God would have to truly show me why and what he wants me to do. It's like, you know, I hear, like I was just talking to a friend just yesterday. I was at her house and actually, well, Gloria that was singing at the conference. So she was a beautiful voice. She's seriously amazing. She leads our Swahili and French songs because she's fluent.

And so I was at her house yesterday and I was asking her, I was like, so when did you, you know, how did you learn how to sing or anything? And she said, honestly, she goes, I've always loved singing, but I didn't like have a, you know, anything specific. But she said, when I was 13 years old, I just prayed, Lord, please give me a voice so that I could share it with your people. And she goes, and it was almost like overnight overnight I got a voice that was not from me. And when she said that, I'm like, that's always my prayer is that I'm like, if you do want me to have a voice any other way than I do right now, then you're just going to have to give that to me.

You're going to have to give me a confidence or a, you know, take away my fear or, um, and show me very specifically. So I don't need to, I, I feel like. Do you ever desire to speak? Like someone said, Hey, we're having a conference. I almost said women's conference, but I mean, so I do know you, you've, you've told me before, like you feel, um, how do you put it? Like just nervous because you don't feel like you're like as theological as me. Yeah, definitely. You feel nervous about saying the wrong thing theologically. Yeah, like every topic.

Well, because I feel like I'm talking with you, I'm like, everybody says wrong things all the time. And so, yeah, just any topic, I'm like, oh, I'm going to say the wrong word. I'm going to say interpret it, you know? And so for me, like speaking, you have to say everything so perfect. Whereas in a conversation, like that's why like one-on-one, like I could sit and talk to you for an hour and feel great about it because every single thing in that hour wasn't probably completely perfect, but that's, you know, so. Right now you're speaking to 25,000 people.

You're basically preaching at like Saddleback right now, but it's just, you know, I can't see them. So is it, I don't know. No. But you said you don't get nervous. No, I do. Like looking at a sea of people or. Yeah.

Like I won't want to listen to this after. And, and, you know, at this point, I feel like we have five more years before we're empty nesters. And, yeah, I just, I don't, it takes a lot on our family when you go speak that I don't, you know, I want to be available for our kids. I think, yeah, that's good. I think your kids would actually. My kids? Huh? You said your kids. I think your kids would actually – My kids? Huh?

You said your kids. I said your kids. They're both of ours. I think your kids – I think our kids – I think they would – it would actually – if you – well, yeah, this isn't the reason to do it. But like if you did go speak somewhere, I think they would actually – I think it would probably be good for you guys' relationship. I think they would actually, I think it'd probably be good for you guys' relationship. I think they like it when they see you doing, doing things kind of on your own that isn't explicitly connected to the family, you know? Yeah.

Cause they don't really feel like I do a lot. Like I asked him the other day, I goes, do you feel like I work? And they're like, no. And I was like, wow. They didn't say it. They know you do. No, they did. Come on.

They said not very much. Like just like a little bit. I'm like, wow. They didn't say it. They know you do. No, they did. Come on. They said not very much, like just like a little bit. I'm like, wow, great. Not very much. I mean, I'm glad. You were. But then I was kind of like, but. Oh, my gosh. Oh.

All right. So next year, we are most likely, I mean, nothing's written in stone, I guess, but we're most likely going to do another Exiles conference. We're already playing around with different ideas on the sessions. So I said this publicly at the conference, so this isn't a secret, but like the, yeah, we really want to do something on deconstruction in the church, whatever, you know, we'll nail down the specific titles. I think we're going to bring back something related to sexuality and gender. Again, not exactly.

Maybe we'll take a specific angle on that. And then the one that really got people pretty excited was doing something on women, power, and abuse in the church. I mean, this is just an ongoing conversation. We did the pre-conference on women in leadership. That was much more of a specific theological, exegetical question we're wrestling with. But I'm equally interested in just whatever we say about complementarian egalitarianism, but just looking at just the culture of the church as a whole and how women are mistreated on various levels, all the way from actual abuse, all the way to just kind of subtle forms of misogyny.

And I'm growing and learning so much about that. Do you have any thoughts on that? We've had a lot of conversations along these lines in the house with three daughters and, and you, I mean, you've, you've told me, do you want to, can you, do you want to, you don't want to speak about that? How you feel as a woman in the church? You don't want to speak about that how you feel as a woman in the church you don't want to talk about that how about how about being my wife in in various settings and conversations you know yeah no definitely that i feel that but that could be on different levels so for one you know

we both walk into a room and only people want to talk to you, which I mean, that's fine. And I'm the introvert and Chris will actually wants to talk. But then, yeah, like it's hard sometimes where it's like, if I try to say anything and it clearly the person is just like only focusing on you and wanting to hear what you have to say, even though I'm like, well, I might be able to speak into that. So there's, yeah, there's times where I'm like, yeah, that's just sucks. Or they tell me, thank you for your ministry, Preston, and you're sitting right there and you're like, you won't say anything because you're not needing praise at all. But, you know, we're both thinking like, well, Chris kind of runs all this. Like, I'm just...

Yeah. Yeah. Which, yeah, I definitely, it's just, yeah, I definitely, yeah, I feel it. I mean, I think all women feel it, really. Really? Yeah. It's just, we're just, we're groomed or it's natural to think we need to listen more to men. Really? I mean, that's our culture. I mean, that's, I mean, you and I were raised in that, right? I mean, very conservative. Yeah.

Like it's, the man has the better words or whatever. And so. I, am I blind? I mean, you tell. Like it's the man has the better words or whatever. And so. Am I blind? I mean, you tell me. I don't think I personally feel that anymore. I mean, I would say ever since doing, maybe I think for me, it really switched when I did my PhD with loads of other PhD students and professors and men and women. There's probably more men. There's more men represented, but some of the most brilliant professors, they were women.

Some of the most brilliant students, PhD students were women. So I don't know. I don't know if that was, and then I've, you know, taught in schools and stuff with colleagues or women, like at Nottingham University, like maybe it's, I don't know. I've been in spaces. Yeah. Yeah. You probably, you're more used to that. So you probably don't feel that. I don't know. I've been in spaces. Yeah. Yeah, you probably – you're more used to that.

So you probably don't feel that. I don't know. Yeah. But yeah, our church culture – not our current – I mean, but just church, big C church. Church culture, yeah. Conservative church culture fosters that. Did you – Elise Fitzpatrick at the end. I mean, that was kind of a bomb at the end.

Yeah. The couch – the 15-minute couch conversation. Yeah. We haven't talked about that. I mean, I was kind of horrified that she says how the kinds

of pervasive advice that women get when they are in an abusive relationship. Yeah. Like you just need to submit more. You just need to... Yeah, yeah.

Were you shocked at that or do you feel like... Well, I feel like you've touched a lot on that on your podcast with Sheila. Oh, yeah. Grigoir. Grigoir, yeah. And just... Well, I feel like you've touched a lot on that on your podcast with Sheila. Oh, yeah.

Grigoir. Grigoir, yeah. And just that, yeah, that's kind of like ingrained in us, right? That men will, that we have the power to help men or not help men and all that, you know, but. Well, I just heard the kids come storming in. Yeah, I know. It gets louder in here. The whole Exiles conference is available via video. It's just a Theology and Raw website, right?

Is where we're selling it. So if you go to TheologyandRaw.com, if you want to watch the entire Exiles conference, we had a great video crew with several cameras set up. So it's really well done. So you can go and purchase the whole entire conference at the website. So any other last words, Chris? Well, you're wearing your, the merch from this year. You want to see, show the back for just YouTube, I guess. So yeah. All right. Think deeply, love widely. So, um, our second daughter, Aubrey, and she's turning 18 next week. And her friend, Kayla, shout out to them.

They designed all our merch this year. We had this crew shirt and then the hoodie. And it was more of a – Great reviews. Yeah, we sold out. Or like there's some sizes that are not sold out. But it was more of a beachy vibe. So they are asking if they could be the ones designing it next year and have a different

vibe but yeah i'm so impressed because yeah they just went on taste right and it's like and yeah i kind of was like i think it's just for a younger crowd like the way they look because the back the hoodies have big bubbly letters and i mean there's lots you know it's very in style for nowadays but um everybody was loving them and buying them so we have we have some more i'm gonna try to get a store going to just be able to sell out of the rest of the things that we have yeah i get asked that all the time i know so yes we have it like 75 percent set up oh really yes it's a big deal to make a store online right i mean the shipping and all that um well no once once it's all set up it's easy to do it and they just i'll hire one of my right i mean the shipping and all that um well no once once it's all set up

it's easy to do it and they just i'll hire one of my kids to be the shipping people we're such a mom and poppers kids are in the basement no they're always trying to make money so here you go but anyways yeah i'd love to be able to sell off all the rest so that next year we'll have a new, a new look. But yeah, they did. They did it. They designed it. And I was, I was impressed. Cool.

All right. Well, thanks for listening to Theology in Her Hall. We'll see you next time on the show. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hey friends, have you been blessed or encouraged or challenged by Theology in a Raw? part of the Converge Podcast Network. loving widely and having curious conversations with thoughtful people. We have several membership tiers where you can receive premium content. For instance, silver level supporters get to ask and vote on the questions for our monthly Patreon only podcast. They also get to see like written drafts of various projects and books I'm working on. And there's other perks for that tier. Gold level supporters get all of this and access to monthly Zoom chats where we basically blow the doors open on any topic they want to discuss. My patrons play a vital role in nurturing

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