Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1067: Teaching the Bible to Millions of People through the Bible Recap: Tara-Leigh Cobble

Episode Date: April 13, 2023

Tara-Leigh is a speaker, writer, and podcaster, whose “Bible Recap” podcast is one the most downloaded Christian podcasts in the world. Tara-Leigh is passionate about studying, teaching, and helping others understand the Bible, especially how to reveal God’s character to us. She is also passionate about the land of Israel and leads bi-annual trips there every year. Find out more about Tara-Leigh at www.taraleighcobble.com If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!

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Gold Level supporters get all of this and access to monthly Zoom chats where we basically blow the doors open on any topic they want to discuss. My patrons play a vital role in nurturing the mission of Theology in the Raw. And for me, just personally, interacting with my Patreon supporters has become one of the hidden blessings in this podcast ministry. So you can check out all of the info at patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology in a Raw. That's patreon.com forward slash Theology in a Raw. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in a Raw. My guest today is Tara Lee Cobble. Tara Lee, as many of you know, is not only an author and a speaker, but she is the host of the uber popular Bible Recap podcast. It's one of the most highly ranked Christian podcasts around

and one of the most highly ranked Christian podcasts around and one of the most highly ranked just podcasts in general. And that becomes the focus of our conversation. We talk about podcasting, talk about her love for studying the scriptures and also her love and my love for the country of Israel. Tara Lee also leads trips to Israel every year, a couple of times a year. So we get into a fascinating conversation about why it's just so fascinating to go visit the land where Jesus walked. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Tara Lee Koppel. All right. Hey friends, I'm here with Tara Lee. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

We met, I mean, was it two or three years ago or something at some Q Ideas gathering, I think? So we sat at the same table. We talked a lot. And then, you know, you were so humble. Like, so what do you do? Like, oh, I kind of podcast. I'm like, oh, that's cool. You know, then I look up your podcast. You're like rank like one and two consistently in the christian charts whatever which is just what are you ranked nationally like of all the podcasts in the world are you like top 200 you know or do you i don't know we from what i've heard from the team i think we usually stay in the top 100 uh often i think under 50 at the beginning of the year there's usually um a day uh their first week of the year where we're in the number two spot or

the number three spot. And that's very exciting. So we get to say we were the number two podcast in the world for a while, but we're in America. I mean, that's insane. That is because I know the podcasting world and like what that means. And that means you're reaching a ton of people. So tell us about your podcast. For those who may not know it, I'm sure most people are maybe already familiar with it, but

what got you into it? What do you do? Because I mean, honestly, I know what you do in the podcast. And I'm like, the fact that that is so popular is super encouraging. Right. That's what makes me so happy about it. Because it suggests that people want to read, understand and love the Bible. And for me, I mean, the reason I started it is I was a Christian. I've been a Christian since I was three or four and been in ministry my entire adult life, went into ministry in college. I had never read the Bible and I had probably pieced it together. I had tried several times and basically was a Genesis scholar because I would start out every year strong with the Genesis, you know, the Bible reading plan and often. But the only way that I ever actually made it through the first time was when a pastor friend of mine offered to answer my questions along the

way. So I would have a phone call with him once a week or so where he would just answer about two hours worth of questions. And I started to understand what I was reading. And I was reading chronologically, which is not front to back. That's reading in the story in the order that happened. So I had this new context and I understood things in a way that I never had having been in full-time ministry, spent, you know, like my entire childhood in a Christian private school, church three times a week, Awanas, vacation Bible school, all that. And none of it helped me understand God and his word, like reading through the Bible with somebody kind of holding my hand along the way, answering my questions about context and how do we reconcile

these things that seem opposed, that seem juxtaposed to each other. So when he did that, I did that for one other friend. And that was the first time she made it through scripture. And then I realized, I wonder if this comprehension aspect is what keeps people from engaging with scripture. It's not so much a lack of desire or a lack of time, because the reality is you can read the Bible in 12 minutes a day in a year. And we all have 12 minutes a day, like that's commercial breaks on your favorite show. And so I just wanted to help people comprehend what they were reading. And, uh, when we comprehend it, then we fall in love with God all the more because he's infinitely lovable. So what do you, what's your, what's your podcast? Like, what are the episodes? What are they like? You just, you walk through the Bible,

explain each passage. So, um, episodes are about eight minutes long. And the idea is you can start the one year Bible reading plan anytime you want. It doesn't have to be January 1st. And it also doesn't have to be a one-year Bible reading plan. Like for some people, it takes them two or three years, and that's fine. But basically, you do the chronological plan. Our plan is in the Bible app, or you can print it out on our website for free. And it just tells you these three-ish chapters a day to read, about 12 minutes.

And then after you've done your reading, whether you listen to it auditorily or you read it with your eyes, you can do our podcast. If you're an auditory learner, you can do our YouTube videos. There's also a book where you can, if you want to read it, take notes, highlight. So whatever suits you best in your reading style and your engagement style, you can go to that. And I basically summarize what you just read, but in layman's terms. So I'm not, you are a scholar, Preston. And it's one of the reasons that I love listening to you and learning from you is you have such a developed knowledge, a robust education on all these things. I do not,

I'm a layman. So I'm primarily taught by listening to people like you, by reading commentaries, by reading study Bibles. And so what I've done in this is I've gone to people who have a higher level of knowledge than me, and I've tried to be the bridge between people like you and people like me, just this sort of layman's knowledge. So for example, when we're reading in the Bible recap, a reading plan, when we're reading about the dimensions of the temple, and it talks about this many cubits, but that many cubits, but that many cubits. And the average person, their brain starts to zone out. Like, I don't even know what a cubit is. Like, I can't visualize this. And so I tell the people,

hey, we talked about the dimensions of the temple today. It's all pretty confusing, but here's what you need to know. It's roughly the size of a Chick-fil-A, plus or minus the playground. You know, so that's sort of the way I talk to the listener is just getting it out there. And because of that, we have people of all ages who engage with us on that and people of all education levels. And the main thing that I do that I think is what people really latch onto. And I didn't expect this, but when we started out, people wanted, people were like, oh, are you going to have an application point every day?

Like you take what you learn and go live it out. And to me, the thought of reading through the Bible specifically for people who are doing it for the first time, that's a big enough challenge on its own. And so I did not want to throw another burden on somebody's back. What I wanted to do was instead teach them to look for God in the scriptures. So where do we see his character show up in today's reading? What do we see about what he loves, what he hates, what motivates him to do what he does? How are we going to learn more of who God is and not just learn our to-do list? And so instead of leaving each day kind of

burdened with this to-do list, you leave buoyed by the character of God, which then as you see and behold him more, you fall in love with him more and you become more like him. His spirit activates that to engage you to do those things in the world around you. So instead of coming away with a list that's like, oh man, I really need to be more patient with my kids. You leave going, wow, God is so patient toward his kids. God has been so patient with me. He's so patient with the Israelites. He's so patient with those rebel. And you behold that, you fall in love with it, and it begins to manifest by the work of the Spirit in your own life. So we end every day with what we call the God shot, which is the snapshot of God and His character. That's so good. So from the, you know, in Bible interpretation classes, you know, we learn observation, then interpretation, then application. They're already observing the text by reading it. You're focusing on the interpretation, just getting your head around, your heart and mind around, like, what is going on in this text? And then if there is an application point, it's pointing towards God rather than kind of like a to-do list in response.

Yeah. And the reason for that was, honestly, Preston, the first time I read through, when my pastor friend, his name's Lee, when he challenged me to read through scripture the first time, my first thought was, I don't want to. Which is, like, I don't want to. I was like, I feel like I've got the important parts down, you know? But when I was reading through and I'm asking him my questions along the way, I had an unexpected response, which was Old Testament, fine. That's, you know, I understand like a lot of my ideas about how God behaved and interacted in the Old Testament were true to form. But when I got to the New Testament, I had real problems with Jesus.

I finished the Bible the first time and I was like, I went back to Lee and I said, I believe this is true. The whole thing. I believe it's all true. But I don't like him. What do I do now? Because I'm in full time ministry. I don't know what to do now because I can't lie about this. Like I'm going to have to quit my job and go be a barista or something like I, what did I do? And because he had walked through the whole Bible with me, he knew the lens through which I was seeing it.

And so he was like, okay, I have a new challenge for you this time, read it again and stop looking for yourself, start looking for God. And so that was transformative for me because it was, I was halfway through the old Testament and I was smitten. I was in love with it. I was like, it's, it's the same book I just read, but a different lens. And so that to me is the real challenge is to train ourselves to read scripture with an eye to look for it being about God. And it does have implications in our lives, but it's so much more than just a, it's not just a practical book. It's a relational book. Well, you might be encouraged by this, but in, in like Old Testament scholarship, as you know, you read a lot of, you know, academic type books, but like that's a very, very common correction that Old Testament scholars have to make with a more popular level audiences

rather than reading, you know, Cain and Abel and primarily walking away with like, okay, how do I love my siblings better? Or, you know, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac and like, wow, father's love for his son. Again, these might be aspects of the story, but everything in the story is primarily revealing who God is. So as much as that might seem like a unique perspective, I think that is primarily, and this is something when I used to teach Old Testament survey is a number, day one, I was like, we are not going to focus on kind of practical how to, we're not going to bypass, you know,

what this says about God to kind of get like a to-do list. Again, maybe that sounds derogatory. I'm not saying there isn't a response there, but responding to what? We are responding to the character of God that is splashed all over the pages of scripture. I love your phrase, buoyed by the character of God. Did you coin that? of God? Did you coin that? Maybe, I guess so. I don't know. But yeah, that's, um, that I think is, it certainly has buoyed me. But when you, I have a question for you. When, when you were teaching people that, was it, uh, challenging for them? Was it hard for them? Was it, um, because I think we're naturally, we have this idea about God as this. If I do what you say, then you'll give me what I want.

Or if I do say then and you won't send me to hell. Or and so I people who are raised in church, especially. Yeah. Or at least the people that I know were raised with that mentality. And it's really hard idea. Like every day I would have to reset my brain. Like sometimes I would end up my reading and I would be like, oh, I forgot to find my God shot, like for my to-do list or these promises I

could kind of snatch out and like try to bag God into a corner to make him do what I wanted. Was it hard for the people that you engaged with that thought? I think that's a great question. I've never been asked that question before. I, yes and no. I would say most Christians raised in the church have this rubber band. It's like you're pushing against a rubber band. And if you stop pushing, it'll just snap back into this deistic transactional view of God that if I wake up and bump my toe, I must have did something wrong, just tit for tat. We are so wired against this unconditional radical grace of God, I think. And especially when

you get through the Old Testament, we think here's a rule book and then Jesus came to save us from the Old Testament or whatever, you know. So for me, it was a day in, day out emphasis, you know, and just trying to show people, you know, places where they didn't expect it. Like one of my favorite revelations of God's character comes at the last part of the last half of the book of Exodus, which is one of the more, I'll say it, one of the more boring parts of scripture. So the last part of Exodus is, you know, you've got lots of laws in Exodus, you know, 20 is 10 commandments. And then you have all these instructions on how to build a tabernacle. And then you got this, you know, two, three, two chapter, you know,

Exodus 32, 33, 34, where they sinned with the golden calf. And then chapters 35 to 40, they build the tabernacle. And I, you know, it could be really boring for some people. I said, okay, wait a minute, let's, let's, let's think about what do we know about the function of a tabernacle? A tabernacle is a way to allow a holy God to dwell with sinful people without his holiness annihilating us. That's why you have all these specifications on how to approach this God. You don't just come willy-nilly. You'll end up like Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10. So you have God's desire.

Basically, here's how to build a tabernacle is conveying God wants to dwell with us. And then 32, 33, 34, they sin with the golden calf. That's like having an affair on your wedding night. I'm talking like just they are rushing headlong towards sin. The fact that 35 through 40 tells us in detail the building of the tabernacle in chapter 40, the presence of God fills the tabernacle. This whole thing is about God's relentless, shameless desire to want to dwell with sinful people. So once you see that, then all of a sudden they want to go back and reread it. Because I'm like, I didn't get any of that when I was reading it. But I do think when you just have this theological lens on, you're just having, you're just asking questions about what does this teach

us about God? So I think it was, you know, but by the time we got the numbers, they're back in the, you know, the students are back into like, how do I be a better person? Which again, again, it's not an either or, but you're not gonna be a better person until you realize that you're actually not a good person. But you're loved by a really good God. Like that's the foundation of being a good person.

What do you think? I mean, what's helped you to keep that focus? Like you said, I like that rubber band analogy. If you don't keep pressing on it, it keeps snapping back. And so I put together a little journal of where every day I have to like, as I'm taking notes, I have to write my God shot at the end of my day. So I know that that's coming and it's training my eyes to be thinking about God as I'm reading because it is, it's pushing against the flesh. And man, I love, I just was so struck by what you were just sharing, just to be reminded all over again of how, you know, God from the beginning is, he's building, he's coming to dwell with his people. He's building

a relationship with them. They fracture the relationship with sin. And then he's like, okay, I know you're hiding. I'm going to come to find you. I'm going to clothe you. And I'm going to move through this with you. And then he sets up literal camp in the midst of sinners in the wilderness, like in the middle. He's not like, I'll be over here, like on the coast of the Mediterranean. You guys get it together and come find me when you want.

Like he's like set it in the middle of the camp of the sinners and then coming to dwell in the midst of us by his spirit. And it's just these themes, this, this theme of him pursuing us when we sin. And, um, a lot of people, it's easy to just focus on him punishing the sin, but he just keeps coming back. He's like, I'm not giving up. I'm going to keep coming back. I'm going to keep trying to draw near to you when you rebel and fracture things all over again. Yeah. There's so much grace in the Old Testament. It's a shame that we have missed it for so many years. I'm curious, do you go through, so you go through the whole Bible in a year. Do you do that freshly each year? Does your perspective change? Are are you running same episodes every january 1 you start with where you were like you just yeah are they fresh episodes we're

re-airing the episodes in part because a i feel like i've done a summary fairly well the first time through like we feel like it was good content um but there are edits whenever i learn something new or want to drop something in, or if I've just said like the wrong name, Rachel versus Rebecca or, you know, whatever. So I do edit for corrections or even just, you know, we've got some emails of people who said there was a better way to say what you said. Like there was a better way to say it. And it could be like an example that I used, a comparison that I made. And if it's been, if it's something

that they just have a bigger lens on than I do, I, we love getting that feedback and we do edit accordingly. But one of the things that I tried really hard to do the first time through was if it wasn't something that was a foundational fundamental element of the faith, I really wanted to kind of give a broad lens on from other perspectives that also could be Orthodox, like with fall within Orthodox Christianity. So, um, when we hit episodes like baptism and there are multiple ways to do baptism that still fall within Orthodox Christianity, I don't want the listener, the reader to have any idea where I stand. I want them to, I want to say like, here's what happens in the story.

And here is what some faith traditions believe. Here's what other faith traditions believe. Here's what other faith traditions believe. We've got seven links in the show notes. If you want to deep dive on that and find out more, we're always trying to push people back to their local church for those conversations as well. We're always trying to push people back to their local church for those conversations as well. But in those spaces, sometimes I do find a better link to insert or a better thing to reference.

And so we do freshen things up. But by and large, it's the same content. And it took me 100 hours a week, working 100 hours a week for 15 months to build this out. Oh, wow. I just don't have the time every year to do that again. Shame on you. Wait, 100 hours? So that's crazy. I remember you telling me that.

I'm acting surprised, but I remember you telling me that in person. But goodness, can you expand on that? You were studying the Bible 100, is that what you mean? When you say 100 hours a week, you're literally just studying and thinking and researching and reading. And writing the scripts and recording. And the first year, I mean, my prayer when we launched this out, my prayer was that 300 people would read through the Bible with me. And I think we're moving in on 250 million downloads. And so it's just like the fact that the Lord answered that prayer in such a

generous way is kind of, it's just bonkers. And it makes me so happy because I was doing all that work, hoping 300 people would listen, but it was essentially, I would wake up. I mean, I, I allowed myself five friends that year that I got to see. And, um, but everybody else got to know because I just had to sit at my desk and my dining room table and read commentaries and study Bibles and articles. And so I would take each day's three-ish chapters, read those chapters and then read eight to 12 different lenses on those chapters and then write my overview of those chapters and then record my overview of those chapters. And so it was a lot. There were days when I was just a few episodes ahead. So I was having to just keep going at it. And is it an everyday podcast? Seven days a week, 365? Okay. Okay. So that you do. Yeah, you absolutely have to put that kind of time into it. So you said you were expecting 300

people to listen to it that first year, what were the numbers that first year? Did it just take off right away? Was it a slow growth? It was. I woke up on... I'm a night owl, so I go to bed around 2 a.m. And I wake up around 10 a.m. And so I woke up on January 1st at 10 a.m.

The year we launched, I woke up to 300 emails. And so I was like, okay, wow, these are all people who've listened within the first 10 hours of my day. And so I knew the Lord was doing something with it. And so I quickly began to assemble a team because I couldn't respond to all those emails while I'm trying to read, write, record episodes. And some of them had stuff I needed to know. Like some of them were listener feedback that needed to be implemented. And so I just sort of gathered a bunch of my friends to help me out with things.

And now we have just an incredible team that comes around me to, to help with all that stuff. And we have a great Patreon community that they help answer each other's questions so that everything doesn't land on me. And there are a few pastors in that group answer each other's questions so that everything doesn't land on me. And there are a few pastors in that group who just pastor that group so well in our Facebook group, because there are people who are not a part of a church. They aren't believers or they live in places where there aren't Bible teaching churches. Maybe they're missionaries who are stationed abroad.

And so just to have that group who's all reading the same thing, talking about the same things, trying to find their God shot, and they come together and to know that I don't have to manage it all, that there are other people in the community who are theologically sound who can do that, such a weight off my shoulders because it grew at a pace that I could not keep up with. So even that first day, do you know, was it word of mouth within a few hours, people sending it or because perhaps word of mouth is 50% of the people who do the Bible recap, whether it's the book, the YouTube, the podcast, they do it because a friend told them about it. Um, and so what we found was that I had gone on, I think one podcast to talk about it. I went on the Jamie Ivey podcast

and she is very popular with women. And so I knew that people had heard about it through her. So what we found was women started doing it. And then if they were, they had children, maybe their children started listening along with them. And then they would be talking about it with their kids in front of their husband. And then their husband would be like, well, that's interesting. Like, I would love to talk about that with you. And so, you know, and, and because I'm not like an authoritative teacher, there are men who felt comfortable being like, it's just a woman talking, you know, like I can listen to a woman talk like it's not she's not holding authority over me. And then sometimes those men were pastors and they were like, we want our whole church to do this. And so they jumped in and we started the New Testament that fall and because we start the New Testament on October 1st every year. So it's an easy on-ramp.

It's kind of like the gateway to people doing the whole Bible. If they think they can't do a year in the Old Testament, they can do 90 days in the New Testament. So it just kept building momentum on itself. And we have people who've done it five years in a row. And people ask, like, are you ever going to do anything different? But, I mean, this is the Bible reading plan I've done now 15 times. And I learn new stuff all the time. And so I'm like, there's still more here.

There are, I will say, I like to make a distinction for people who ask about that. I make a distinction between Bible reading and Bible study. And I think this falls in the Bible reading category. And if you want to do deeper study on the things we're reading about, by all means, people will often hit a particular book and they'll be like, I want to learn more or learn more about a particular idea. Maybe they hit the Trinity and they're like, I need to learn more about this when I start mentioning it in the podcast. And so I have an adjacent ministry called D Group, which is a discipleship group where we do four studies, four deep dives a year on a particular topic or book of the Bible.

I was wondering the name, the D Group and then Bible Recap. So D Group is the umbrella organization. Bible Recap is the Bible reading section of that. Is that right? Or how would you describe that? You don't have to be in one to do the other in fact that is how it started but we recently realized that was confusing to people because people would be like i'm in a d group i do the bible recap with so-and-so and we were like d group is a different thing so we want clarity around those that d group

is where we do bible study tbr is where we do bible reading um so yeah those are two they work together pretty well. I do both of them. There's a real, so a good friend of mine, John Whitaker, he started this thing called the Listener's Commentary. It's 20 to 25 minutes on a portion of scripture where he, so he goes a lot slower. He's probably halfway through the New Testament right now.

So it would be almost like, it would be such a great like parallel adjacent to what you're like, if somebody says, oh, I want to spend, you know, go a little deeper into like the, and he's, he's got like a doctorate in, in, in theology taught for 20 years of Bible study or at a Bible college. But the great thing about John is that he's so down to earth. Like when he preaches, he's one of those guys that you don't realize he has a doctor. He's just, he's a, he talks about, you know, blue jeans theology. Like I just want to talk to the lay person in the pew. So it's, it's in depth. He's looking at the Greek text, but you wouldn't know

it. Like he's like, I know it when I'm falling. I'm like, oh, so you're taking this interpretation, you know? And same thing, like he doesn't get into it, but he's like, I just want people to dive deeper into the text, not get bogged down by the debates, but just try to understand what's going on. And what I'm curious, just personally, what's your, um, your, your method of study. And I guess maybe this would go back more when you were first producing this, like, I mean, I guess you mentioned it, you would go through, how did you find like the resources, commentaries? Did you just draw on people to say, Hey, give me, give me something on Genesis so I can have some good sources? Yeah, some of them I did.

I also grew up in a Christian bookstore. My family owns a Christian bookstore. And so that was my first job when I was six years old. I was working stamping names on Bibles. But I have a bit of a library myself. But then also, there's an incredible amount of commentary content online for free. And so I would just dig into the archives of Bible Gateway or Blue Letter Bible or Faith Life Study Bible. All those are online for free.

And then, of course, Logos makes great software for that, if you want to buy that. And so there are just really great resources that I had access to online and then the actual books. So when I would hit a text, the first thing I did, actually, whenever I started working on this, I thought it was going to take me like an hour a day. I thought it was going to take me hardly any time at all to make each day's podcast, me like an hour a day. I thought it was going to take me hardly any time at all to make each day's podcast because my thought was so arrogant. I've read through this 10 times. I have all of my years of notes. I have all the journals of all my Bible reading. And so I'm just going to open those up and find out what I learned. But I didn't realize that I have to string everything together because there were things that maybe somebody who's reading for the first time,

they had not already wrestled with this question. So I had to really string things together. So I thought I was going to just need, you know, my notes for starters. And then it was like, no, no, you're going to need a table full of commentaries and an internet full of information. But when I would hit, like in the baptism episode, to reference that again, I contacted friends of mine who were pastors with those different views. And I said, I'm going to draft out, like, tell me about your viewpoint and support it. And I would listen to them.

We would talk three, four hour conversations, sometimes taking notes on what they'd said. And then I said, I'm going to draft it up, send it to you and see if you feel represented. And, you know, I'm going to draft it up, send it to you and see if you feel represented. And they would respond to that. And then I would, after I finished them all, I'm going to send you all the viewpoints, everybody's viewpoint. Can you tell which one I believe? And so I really did a lot of work on that to just interview people about their theology as well. The pastors in those positions and theologians. You haven't, you said you haven't gone to seminary,

right? Correct. Do you have a, you would slay. No, it didn't go away with having gone through the whole Bible and all these sources. Like, do you,

do you have, do you have a desire to go to seminary or. At this time, it's not a priority. I love learning. I tend to find that I learn best not in a classroom environment. I learn best through one-on-one interaction, conversation, and through one-on-one engagement with the text. And so I would love it, but I also know it took me four years to finish an associate's degree. So I think I would probably not. Like traditional forms of education. I guess I have a four-year degree, but it's an associate's degree. So I think I would probably not. Like traditional forms of education. It's an associate's degree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. Well, you know,

that's why I actually, I'm pretty, I'm, I feel like I do okay in a classroom setting. But I, after I did my MDiv, I heard that like in the UK, their PhD program is all individual research based. Like you don't have any classrooms. It's all your own. And that's why I was drawn. So I'm like, look, I know how to research. I know how to read. I know if I get an idea or question in my mind, I kind of like am energized by going

on my journey and figuring stuff out and finding what things along the way I need to do. Talk to this person, you know, read this book, read that article. So that's what drew me to that kind of method. So I totally, I, I, yeah, I, I get what you're saying. You mentioned, we were talking offline, you lead trips to Israel too, right? So that's a big, is that an intrinsic part of your, your ministry? Is that kind of something you fell into on the side or? Another umbrella. So my dad, uh, used to lead trips to Israel before I was born. And he's still alive, but I never got to go with him. So I went on my first trip with my church in 2012.

And I came home. This is kind of a dramatic statement, but I was like, God, you have got to either take me back there or kill me now. Like, I just can't. Because people say things like, it's a trip of a lifetime, once in a lifetime. And I'm like, if that's once in a lifetime, I need to die today because I can't imagine not going back. And so my dad was like, I could teach you to lead trips and you could go with groups however often you want to. And so I went on four trips to learn. I went on two pilgrimage tours to learn about the biblical information.

And then I went on two geopolitical tours to sort of learn about what's happening in the landscape there, what's happened historically. And we did things like volunteer in hospitals and things like that. And so I learned a lot on those trips and then started building my own. And when we started out, all I had was D Group. I didn't have the Bible Recap. And so I would struggle to get 12, 15 people to go. And then when we launched the Bible recap and I would mention in episodes like, oh, when you're when you go to Israel or if you go to Israel, you'll get to see this. And here's what's maybe behind the scenes that you can't tell from the text. And people just just jumped on that.

So we we decided to launch sort of this separate entity of the, it's called Israel Lux Tours. So we do luxury pilgrimage tours, fairly niche situation there. It's not just a pilgrimage tour and it's not just a vacation. It's, you know, this, you're going to eat well, you're going to sleep well because you're going to be better rested to take in all the information and adjust to the jet lag. And it's a situation where we now like do, I think two trips a year, which is not a lot, but, um, it's still one of my favorite things I do. I just love being in Israel. I spent a semester there. Yeah. And, uh, and I've been back a few times. Oh, I say,

oh my gosh, I, I almost didn't want to come home. It was right when I was, um, oh my gosh, I almost didn't want to come home. It was right when I was between college and seminary. I was 20, what, two, 20, no, 23 maybe. And just absolutely ate it up with a spoon. I just could not get it off. All the way down to the smells. I loved hearing people get on me about this. I loved hearing the Muslim prayers. I loved walking down the streets of old Jerusalem and the smells and the shopkeepers playing backgammon and drinking coffee all day long. And just, just everything about the Middle East. I just absolutely love, let alone the Bible just, yeah, I know it's cliche, but I mean, it just is, it's so hard to explain. It just absolutely comes alive. Absolutely. And I'm

such a visual kind of learner that like it just did solidify. I still can see different tells and different, you know, the kind of ruins of the city and stuff. And like, it's just, yeah, it's incredible. I tell people, I, you know, I don't want to ever give anybody the idea that if they can't go to Israel for whatever reason that they have like a diminished relationship with Jesus or it's in no way. But for me, it felt like, like if I'm in love with a person and I love them already and we have this great relationship, but then I get to go home with them and meet their

family or like see the town that they're from. And like, I am like, oh, that's why you use that phrase. That's why you mispronounce that word. And that's where your hair color came from. And I, you sort of get this, this more textured understanding of who they are as a person. And I just love it. I mean, like here you talk about it right now. I'm like, book me a flight. Like I can't, I go back and let's go. I had two trips planned that both got canceled through Theology of Narah.

We had one, I want to say 2020. And sure enough, you know, that was like the summer of 2020. So obviously that one was canceled. Then we like pushed it back, push it back, push it back. And I think we pushed it back to like fall of maybe 2021. And, um, yeah, even that one got, we had to cancel that one too. Like it just was not. And you know, I've, I've people on the ground there and they're like, man, things here can change overnight. They can, they can literally change entry laws while you're in the airplane. And you've been there. They don't, you don't negotiate with an Israeli soldier. They're like, Hey, I'm here. And like, sorry, you got to go back. Like, what do you mean go back? I don't know. Figure it out. Like, there's not, you don't have your American kind of like,

you know, like authority anymore. So I'm like, man, I don't, I don't, I want to wait a while before I wait. Have you post COVID? What have you had? Have you led some trips? Okay. Funny. I, um, I was, I had a trip that was supposed to go in May, 2020 and it got canceled obviously. And so, um, I had that desperation for Israel that I probably, you know, heard it in my voice a little bit. And so I just was like, I need to see Israel. And I have these on my phone, but I just was buying all of these like coffee table books of Israel because I just wanted to feel like I was there again. And, um, that was actually catalytic in the book that I'm about to release because, uh, I got all these

books of Israel and they were all, all the pictures were brown. And I was like, that is not the Israel I know. I understand rooms are usually brown. It's like, you know, but the Israel I know is lush and gorgeous and vibrant. And so I, during 2020, was making all those calls to all the authorities to try to get in the country because I wanted to make a coffee table book with beautiful photos. And we made a lot of phone calls and finally got in on a work visa. So my photographer and I got to go to an empty country, empty of tourists, for five weeks and shoot at all these sites that normally are flooded with tourists. And we got to take pictures of these beautiful scenes. And it was just, I mean, I can't even believe I got to spend five weeks in Israel. Just, it was incredible.

And so the book comes out in April and I, stunning, just stunning just uh i'm so excited to to have in the world something that demonstrates visually the israel that i know and what's it called what's the title of the book this podcast will release it probably right around the time oh cool yeah it comes out april 25th it's called israel and the subtitle is beauty light and luxury and if you can get it 40 off on a pre-order at bakerbookhouse.com so you can get it 23.99 which is an incredible price for a coffee table book i was worried that when it came out the size of it i was like this looks like it's to me i wanted it to look like the books you see in anthropology but those are way out of my budget so i'm'm glad we got it, you know,

budget friendly. So it's, it's, it's more beautiful, colorful pictures. It gives a different kind of side of Israel than what most people might see. Is there also like commentary or what's the, is there any written stuff in the, in the book as well? Or. There is, I'm glad you asked. Cause I, uh, there are 30 sites in the book that are like the biblical sites that we visit when we go to Israel. So they're represented in photos. And then I have a devotional beside those. So the idea behind the book was kind of that it would be something that was so visually beautiful that would appeal to people who aren't Christians. They would want to have it on their coffee table. And as they're flipping through, they would stumble into Jesus. And so there are these little devotionals in there with the adjacent scriptures,

and then they connect to the sites. I love that those little pieces of gold are kind of buried in there. What's your favorite site or top few that come off to your head really quick? So my favorite site in all of Israel is on the northwest shoreline of the Sea of Galilee at a little site that sometimes is called Mensa Christi, sometimes it's called Tabgha, but I call it Mensa Christi usually, and that means the table of Christ. And it is, the shoreline hasn't changed there in 2,000 years, and it is the only natural port in the northwest part of the Galilee, which would have been right where Jesus and the apostles would have lived when they were fishermen and things like that. So it's right by Capernaum.

And so it would have been the site where Jesus called his disciples, almost certainly. And then it likely would have been the same place where he cooked him breakfast after the resurrection. And so there's this big, wide, flat rock by the shoreline. And I don't know if you've ever been camping or not, but camping, if there's not a picnic table and I haven't brought a table, I'm looking for like a rock or a stump or something to set my supplies down on. And so the fact that there's this big, flat, wide rock right by that shoreline, And so the fact that there's this big, flat, wide rock right by that shoreline, they call it Mensa Christi, the table of Christ, saying maybe, maybe this is where he had the fish laid out for breakfast after his resurrection. Oh, that's a beautiful area. When I was there, we did this massive hike that started northwest of there, up in the hills.

And we hiked. It was downhill, okay, because this is going to sound like a long hike. But it was a 21-mile hike, mostly downhill. But the last bit was up Arbella, that big face right just south of there. I mean, I was 20. I was in good shape. But I remember. And then we go up to the top of Arbella.

Sun was starting to set. And it was just, oh, gosh. It was so – look out over the sea from that, that peak there. And Oh my gosh, it's absolutely stunning. I've heard people say they theorize that that is where Jesus went when he went off, uh, up on a hillside to pray alone, but that, that could have been where he went based on the things he would have been able to see in his, in his view. Um,

it is quite a hike but man the view oh it's gorgeous yeah i'm trying to think yeah i pre i mean i remember when i was i spent you know the first part of my time in in the jerusalem area so you know real busy hustle and bustle touristy and stuff and then when you go up to galilee and it's just like it's just so much more calm peaceful and like you here, like when you're in Jerusalem, it's so built up and it's like, this looks nothing like, or a little like it would have back then, but you go to Galilee and like, this is what he would have seen largely, you know? Um, but I, I do appreciate the hustle and bustle and the calmness for different reasons, you know? So it's hard to, yeah, it's almost unfair to say

your favorite site. What's your favorite site? I know, well, that's, yeah. I mean, I like, I mean, the top of Arbel is gorgeous. I do, I think I do like just walking the streets of the old city and just the quirkiness of it. You feel like you're back in time. Yeah, just the smells, the food, the vibe, the tension, you know. Tension can flare up at various times, you know.

But even that is like there's a meaningfulness there. You have Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Zionist. Like you have so many just tense religious streams colliding like on the Temple Mount, like just different. And just feeling that in the air is just, I think it's, I mean, enjoyable might not be the right phrase, but it's just, there's a thickness, there's a meaningfulness there that I just, I love being around, you know, making me want to go back. making me want to go back. For all the listeners who haven't ever been, I know we're reminiscing about a place you've never been, but hopefully in a way that makes you know.

How can people sign up? I'm just kidding. If people want to like, man, I want to go with Tara Lee on a trip. Is that possible? Is this, is it, is it fill up too super quick or?

We do have, we have a waiting list, but you know, anytime we open a new tour, we drop an email to the waiting list and you know anytime we open a new tour we drop an email to the waiting list and it's kind of first come first serve um but the website is israelux and so i'll spell that for people israel i s r a e l x.com israel.com so yeah i love we do like 10 day trips and we do them a couple times a year when the weather is really nice and it's not too hot. Usually it's when we aim for, we usually aim for April and September. Um, cause I've been every month of the year. And when I'm there in July, you have to give descriptions on the bus. Like you're like, we're going to do the description, get off, take your much, Tara Lee, for the great conversation. And man, you just got me going with the Israel thing. But yeah, I would highly encourage people to check out your podcast. It's under, well, the one that the Bible recap is just killer. And obviously, there's tons of other resources that you guys are putting out. So thank you so much for what you do. I think you're a gift to the church. So keep pressing on. Thanks for having me, Preston. Long time listener.

And I just want to, to your other listeners out there like me, I had been a listener of Preston for a long time. And when I met Preston in real life, was so much more impressed by his kindness and his humility and his gentleness and his enthusiasm for the gospel. Preston, just thank you for having me on. It's been a real honor. Oh, thank you so much, Terrilee. I appreciate it.

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