Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1069: Do Evangelicals Know How to Engage Controversial Topics? Dr. Shaunti Feldhahn

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

Shaunti received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author and popular speaker. Today, she applies her analytical skills to investigating eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace. Shaunti has written several books (including several with husband, Jeff), including For Women Only, The Kindness Challenge, Thriving in Love & Money, and the recently released Secrets of Sex & Marriage: 8 Surprises That Make All the Difference, which she coauthored with dr. Michael Sytsma. In our conversation, we talk about sexual abuse in the church and how to respond. 

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Shanti Feldhahn, who is a researcher and a writer. She has a graduate degree from Harvard University and used to be an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher and a bestselling author and popular speaker. Today, she applies her analytical skills to investigating eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at the home and in the workplace. She is the author of several books, including the best-selling For Women Only. She's also written The Kindness Challenge, Thriving in Love and Money, and the recently released The Secrets of Sex and Marriage, Eight Surprises That Make All the Difference.

We were going to talk about this book, but we got like, we went off on a major rabbit trail at the very beginning on kind of debates about how to even go talk about sex and some of the sensitivity around this really, well, sensitive topic, and especially as it applies to even abuse in the church, and how to respond to abuse in the church. So that pretty much took our whole time. So I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I had a wonderful time talking to you and getting to know Shanti a bit more. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Shanti Felden. All right, Shanti, good to see you again. We were up in Edmonton, Canada a few years ago at a dinner with a bunch of other people. So we barely kind of talked across the table. Exactly. Well, and it was very cold, if I'm remembering correctly. It was like January

or February in Edmonton. Edmonton in January. And yes, it was no joke. It was no joke. January. And yes, it was no joke. It was no joke. Well, I have appreciated your work over the years. I mean, you wrote For Men Only, For Women Only, which were, were those your most famous books, first books? I mean, definitely they're very widely read. How would you describe those books? Oh gosh, the word famous. How about most well-known? How about most well-known? Most well-known, yeah. That kind of creeps me out a little bit. Yeah, no, for women only and for men only are our most highest, the highest selling book, most highest selling. I really can't talk, I promise. But yes, no, those are, I think they're, I mean,

really, truly, that has been an example of, I could not have planned that. Right? I think it's two and a half million copies between the two of those books and 26 languages, something like that. I mean, it's just completely a God thing. Wow. And in your most recent book, Secrets of Sex and Marriage, Eight Surprises That Make All the Difference, this one just came out. You co-authored it with Dr. Michael Seitzma. Is that how you say his name? Hey, very good. Absolutely.

Most people get his last name wrong. I'm terrible names too. That's a win for me. So we could talk about your books. But we're talking offline about just maybe the broader conversation about how evangelicalism, what is the state of evangelicalism right now and how we go about hard conversations. I mean, sensitive topics like sex, sexuality, obviously those are, you know, can be really hot, but that spills over into women in the church, abuse in the church.

We have so many, it seems like every other church is going through some kind of abuse, cover up, follow the pastor. I mean, there's just so much going on right now. I would love to just – how have you been processing this? And do you find that evangelicals are in a healthy spot going about these conversations? Or what are some maybe unhealthy ways in which we're going about these conversations? Is that a good way to set it up? Or if you want to set it up differently? Yeah, no.

Because I know what you're referring to. Maybe a lot of people may not know what you're referring to, actually, because, you know, not everybody is in our little Twitter bubble, right? But there has been a lot over, really over the last 20 years, like, you know, 20 years ago, people didn't talk about sex in the church, really. I mean, that was one of the things that needed to change. And so we've been trying, and there's been movements to talk about things like pornography, for example. And especially more recently, to talk about things like being trauma-informed and how we express ourselves as pastors, ministry leaders, authors, speakers. There has definitely been a movement recently to say we have to be more careful in how we do this,

which is very true. This is one of those things that there can be so much pain that is caused by being anywhere from being kind of lighthearted about it or not being careful. Because it can convey something to a hurting couple, a hurting woman, a hurting man that we don't intend. And then it deepens the cycle of hurt. Like, for example, you know, I've over the years, I've been doing research for 20 years now. And we've done 12 of these big nationally representative studies to understand what is it that, you know, men and women really think? What is it that is in our parenting or makes for the happiest marriages? And so I talk to a lot of people and I hear so often these stories. And there really has been a lot of hurt that I've seen amongst women, especially who, you know, they felt like I've heard so many talking to so many women who, even if there may be an outlier, you know, even if it's not,

you know, every woman in every church, but it happens where somebody is told that, you know, their role is to give their husband sex whenever he wants, that he's not allowed to say, that she's not allowed to say no. I mean, that's such a damaging belief or the concept of, you know, a pastor who may sort of be throwing something out there as an illustration in a sermon. And, you know, I heard somebody not long ago who said they heard their pastor say, you know, ladies, you need to make sure you give your husband sex or, you know, he might cheat on you, like, or he might use pornography or he might whatever. And is that most pastors?

No, of course not. Most of us as leaders, I hope, are more cognizant of the fact that that can do damage, but that does happen. And one of the things that I need to say right up front, if you're asking about this movement of trying to draw attention to this, is it a good idea to draw attention to this? 100%. Absolutely, it has to happen. These are real lives of real women and men that are being hurt by messaging that's been maybe ill-considered or maybe even just misunderstood. And so that's the starting point. What I have a bit of an issue with, and I think a lot of us are wrestling with, is whether those real concerns means that we're justified in using certain methods to call that out that might themselves be harmful. So you're hitting two sides of the coin here. I want to let's, yeah, you just opened up a huge conversation.

So let's hit on that first side of people sending messages that can really be legitimately triggering, maybe perpetuating a certain viewpoint. And I'm interested in well-intended, but just ill-informed, like people that don't mean to say things, but then say things that they're not aware of how triggering that can be. And when I say I know triggering can be loosely applied, I'm talking legitimate, like people are, their trauma, their abuse, they're sent to really dark places by even just hearing certain things. And then you have maybe the intended stuff,

stuff that no is coming from a thought, a thought out way of thinking about sex and sexual relationships. And they mean exactly what they say. Can you give us maybe some examples of each one? Is that a, first of all, is that a good way of framing it? And a second of all,

like maybe can we tease that out a little bit of what that could look like? Cause some pastors, some men are probably listening and saying, gosh, am I doing that? What does that look like? Because some pastors, some men are probably listening and saying, gosh, am I doing that? What does that look like? What should I be thinking through? Absolutely.

I mean, and there's a third element there of neither the well-intentioned person who's saying something damaging that doesn't necessarily realize that it's damaging and maybe just needs to be a bit educated, have their eyes opened. And then that second group you talked about, which is, no, this is exactly what they mean, and they're saying it. The third group is really, I think, bigger than both of those two. And the third group is leaders, pastors, authors, speakers who we are trying to speak into this space. And I mean, heck, I just put out a book on sex, right? Like with fear and trembling, because we're trying to speak into a space that really needs it. Um, and, and yet we're never going to do it perfectly. And so there are going

to be things that are maybe misunderstood, right? There are going to be things that I actually don't say this, but it's easy for people to say, well, you know, she says this or pastor XYZ says this. And we don't, it's actually truly a misunderstanding, but it gets spread around and sort of defines that person to some degree, at least in certain circles. And it's that right there is one of the things that I am also concerned about. I'm concerned about the other two, but I'm concerned about the third as well, because I feel like I was talking to another, to a Christian author just this morning, actually, and asking this person, you know, for their opinion on a couple of things,

because I really trust this person. And they're very, very well respected, including by the people who are trying to draw attention to this need. And so I asked this particular person, you know, what do you think about all of this? And they said, look, 20 years ago, the church didn't talk about this. And we're just trying, and we're not going to do it perfectly. And it actually takes a lot of courage for many pastors or authors or speakers or whatever to step out and try to tackle this. And because we're not going to do it perfectly, it feels right now that there's this like firing squad, that there's this gotcha moment where people are like looking, okay, what's the one wrong thing that this person is saying that I can put up and say, see how bad this is? And like, you know, not just see how bad this is, which sometimes it

is bad, right? But see how bad this is. Sometimes it's misunderstood. And okay, now let's call this out, not just as, oh gosh, you know, this is something that we really, really need to counteract. And let me go to them privately and let me say, you know, there's a real issue here. But no, let's actually splash it all over social media and do the public shaming thing. And this leader I was talking to said, it takes a lot of courage to step into this space. And if we keep being shot at for mistakes, even if they're well-intentioned, people are going to back out of this space and we're going to be in the same spot we were 20 years ago where we're not talking about sex in the church because we can't afford to.

And that would be just as damaging. So I don't know if I answered your question. No, you did. You did. And you started getting into the other side of the coin of like some of the – the one side of the coin is you know people either well-intended or maybe deliberately saying actually believing the wrong thing actually believing things that are bad or encouraged maybe abuse or maybe not even full-on abuse but just encouraging really non-christian kind of approaches to these sensitive topics but then the other

side is the call-out culture that's addressing that being maybe a little too trigger happy or just on the hunt. I mean, there is a confirmation bias that when you're on the hunt for something and you're just pre-programmed to maybe you're overly alert to something, you could see things that maybe are not quite there, or maybe your reaction can be towards something legitimate, but maybe your reaction is not actually helping that person change their speech. So I don't know. And I don't know because, yeah. There's two things there that you raise. See, now it's my turn to say there's two things that you raise. There's two things that you're raising. There's two things that you're raising. And one is a very well-known neuroscientific principle, actually, that is that what you're looking for, you're going to see, right? Like it's, that's, that is a real thing. And to some degree,

here's the thing that's hard about this whole thing. To some degree, that's needed, right? Like the people who are the advocates for the abuse victims, the people who are trying to get the church to be more trauma-informed, the whole point behind it is a really, really crucial point to try to say you're not noticing. You have all these things that you're saying, but you're saying these other things in here. And these pieces can be damaging to real people in real relationships whose hearts are broken. And we don't want to further the damage. So to some degree, that's needed. And it's important. The question is, do the very real needs there, here's the question, do the ends, the very real needs of this hurting population, do the ends justify the means? That's really the question.

Can you expand on that? What do you mean the ends? Like the manner in which we're calling out legitimate injustice and pain. Correct. Like we've got a really important goal, right, for the whole body of Christ to be more attuned to this, to be more careful, to realize maybe some people have been teaching wrong things. Maybe they are in that group number two, and they really need to reevaluate. Like, that's just wrong, right? For example, there was a relatively recent controversy where it appeared, based on the little that I've seen on Twitter and whatnot, it appeared that a ministry leader was saying that someone who had been kind of dealing with a lot of sexual issues as an adult and in her marriage, some of that was because she was in a relationship as a teenager with an adult man. And that there was some languaging that that was consensual or something like some word like that.

Well, if that is actually what that ministry leader believes, that a teenager could ever be in a consensual relationship with an adult man, that that's never not just statutory rape. That that's never not just statutory rape. If that's what that ministry leader actually believes, then that's one of those things that we've got to push on this. We've got to get more attention to this because that is damaging. However, then there is the Twitter mob, right? And then there is the not just this is damaging, but let's look at everybody that endorsed this person's book. Let's de-platform that author. Let's call out all these other people who endorsed it. Wait, let's put this person on their podcast and let's, you know, de-platform that podcaster or tell them they're wrong.

And here's the hard part. We are all part of the same body. We all share the same spirit, 1 Corinthians 12 says, right? We share the same spirit. 12 says, right? We share the same spirit. And so we, with fear and trembling, should go to criticize someone and publicly shame them, who presumably has the same Holy Spirit inside of them and is led by the Spirit, trying to be in the same way we are, we have got to figure out how to have humility and grace with one another and recognize this person we're shooting at, they are a brother or a sister in Christ. And we are told that this is how

the watching world is going to know that you're my disciples because you love one another. And so, you know, as I've been praying about this, to me, I look at that passage in 1 Corinthians 12 about the body, right, and all sharing the same spirit. And I look at that and I go, you know, what happens if some in the body are hurting one another, either because they're saying the wrong things and it's hurting the most vulnerable or because they're being shot at for saying the wrong things, right? Like, how do we do this? And the answer to me is the answer in the Bible, because, you know, it's not like we're the first people to deal with this. The church at Corinth was dealing with this, too.

And so Paul gives the answer in the next verse, which is the famous First Corinthians verse on love, which is like, you know, if I speak with the tongue of men and angels, but I don't have love, I'm just like nothing. I'm a clanging symbol. Like, you know, I can have all this great messaging, but if, and all this faith, but if I don't have love, I'm nothing. Like the concept of love is patient. It's kind. It, I love the fact that the, the scripture that says it does not dishonor others, right? It's not self-seeking. It's not easily provoked. It keeps no record of wrongs. I mean, I think today, to some degree, we're enjoying being provoked. I hate to say it that way, but it may be out of a real sincere heart and care, but we have to be caring just as much about, for example, the hurting woman who might be hearing something wrong and feeling like,

oh my gosh, I have this thing that I have to, I can never say no to my husband or whatever that is, who might be absorbing the wrong message. We should care and love that woman and just as much the pastor or the author who said it in a certain way. Like we need to be able to have grace with each other. I just, I feel like love is the only answer here. Yeah. What would you say that I appreciate that? It's really helpful. I'm wondering, you know, there's that famous phrase, you know, hurt people, hurt people. And, you know, I, as I try to kind of step back and look at what's going on, you have, as you said, you know, just years and years and years of whether it's cover-up, abuse, lack of response, or structures that allow it. I mean, just layers and layers of all these problems. And finally, victims have a

voice. A voice. Exactly. Yeah. And real pain. So I could see this isn't just like a disagreement. I think you said that wrong. I mean, there's a lot of just entrenched pain. There's real pain. I mean, back to the example of, you know, is it ever possible? And I don't know whether that ministry leader meant or whether that was taken out of context, the concept of a teenage girl having a consensual or whatever. I can't remember the word that was used, but a relationship with an older man that was wanted or whatever. But I have several close friends, and not to mention all the women I've interviewed over the years, I have several close friends who've been in that exact situation. And even to this day, in their 40s, they still struggle with shame over what did I do, right? And sometimes they've been told.

I have one friend I was talking to recently. She is very into this advocacy space right now. And this was a story. And she was actually not just in that situation, she endured sexual abuse as a child. She was violently raped as a teenager. She has all the stories, right? All that pain. And we have to care about that. She gets triggered by that kind of example of that kind of ministry leader seeming to imply that something could be consensual because that's her story. And it wasn't. She was a kid, right? She was a young teenager.

I have several friends like that. And so, yes, you're totally right, Preston. This is not just, oh, it's a difference of opinion. It doesn't really matter. No, the reason there's such intensity around this is that it does really matter. How would you respond to this? I've heard people say, given all that we'd had this, you know, victim oppressor narrative that's been going on for a while now, on for a while now. How do you, I've heard people say like, we shouldn't tell the victim,

you know, to, to be, to be patient, to be forgiving, to be whatever. And some of this is, it gets a little dicey because forgiveness is not an option for any, you know, is, is, is always a Christian virtue. And there might be space we need to give people. I mean, you're the psychologist. So you tell, you know, like, I'm not a psychologist. I'm a researcher, which is where it gets icier, right? I'm not a therapist. I am sympathetic to that. At the same time, I don't know. The kind of victoriolic response that I think is also very unchristian and unhealthy and not really helping the situation too. That's it. If somebody needs a change, whether it's unintentional rhetoric they need to fix

or an actual worldview they need to change and be confronted on, or at least reasoned out of, maybe a better way to go about it. So as I look to 100%, I want to see healing. I want to see reconciliation. I want to see less injustice and less abuse. Obviously, I should go without saying. As I look at the manner of how we're going about it, I'm not sure I'm convinced that we're going about it the best way. I guess I'm just echoing what you're already saying. So what would it look like? What is a better way to honor these many victims and the history of abuse and yet go about in a way that's

more Christian and more helpful? Well, I think guided by the concept of love, right? Like 1 Peter 4.8, love covers a multitude of sins. I think at the beginning of that verse, you know, he's saying, most important of all, you need to love one another. And if you use that as like a starting point, and to me, the starting points are humility, grace, and love. That's it. We need to have the humility to say, oh my gosh, I should approach criticizing another believer in public with fear and trembling because we are directly commanded by our Lord to love one another in public, right? Like that's the command. And so to go against that in some way, you should do that with fear and trembling. Now, are some people called to step

up and say things strongly? Absolutely. But it should always be in love. I'll give you an example. Years ago, back in the day when there were still newspapers, I was a newspaper columnist. And it was a syndicated newspaper column that was basically a, I hate to sort of summarize it this way, but it was basically like a liberal conservative debate on the issues of the day. And it was me as an evangelical wife and mom who leaned more conservative debating a liberal agnostic, unmarried, childless feminist. debating a liberal agnostic unmarried childless feminist. Okay. So it was about as far as you could get on the culture spectrum, I guess.

And we were diving into all these hot button issues, right? And when I was just starting in that and really honestly, just like realizing this opportunity was coming my way. I was in church one day and praying about it, like, should I do this, right? Like, Lord, thank you for this, but should I do it? And I really, I'm not one that, you know, often feels like I get a sentence from the Lord, but I got a sentence. I really felt like the Holy Spirit was saying, this is absolutely an opportunity to share my truth with a culture that really needs it. Not that I'm ever going to do perfectly, right? But just the overall opportunity. This is an opportunity to share my truth with a dark culture that really needs that. However, if you cannot share my truth in my love, don't do it. And I honestly think that

that's sort of the first guiding principle is we can absolutely share hard things and need to, right? But what does it look like to share that in love? Does it mean, for example, that you go to somebody privately rather than publicly? Does it mean that you, if you share something and maybe, because there's so many people in this space who are so well-intentioned, the advocacy space, where they throw out something that is an important point. And then you see on their Facebook or their Instagram, they get all these comments that get more and more and more hateful, right? That get more and more and more harsh. You know, so-and-so isn't just, you know, sort of misspoken.

He's encouraging marital rape, right? Like, or this person stops that commentary and says, look, we disagree with this, but this is a brother in Christ, or this is a sister in Christ. And I need to put a stop to this direction that these comments are going, because this is wrong too. I think what this person said is wrong, but so is this. Yeah, no, totally. I'm trying to, I want to get inside of the head of somebody else who would say, no, like, yes, we tried going the quiet route, going the private route. We tried, you know, tiptoeing around people or whatever is how people might frame it. Now's the time for, to just jump on people. Cause that's, if you do take somebody that has said something and let's just

say from one perspective it is really feeding into a the harmful ideology that the church has let go for so many years no okay if we pile up pile on them and shame them and then people start pulling articles and maybe getting fired then maybe somebody will wake up and say oh i need to be more careful with how i talk because this last guy lost everything because he did this. I mean, could there be, now I don't, hopefully we can see, I'm not sure that's still like

using power to overpower power isn't typically the most Christian response. I mean, I don't know if Jesus, you know, the way he went about things would echo that. But pragmatically, I could see, I could see that working because for so many years, all these

megachurch pastors, but people that have covered up abuse or didn't address stuff or got away with stuff, there wasn't enough public shame. If there was, maybe they wouldn't have done it. I don't know. What do you think about that? And listen, I get it. I mean, I totally, you know, I'm one of the people that that group has kind of held up as you're doing it wrong. Right. Okay. And that's hard, but I get it. Like, I am a very, I am a very strong personality.

Like, I have strong beliefs. And I understand that. I have, like I said, very close friends. And I talk regularly in my research interviews with people who have been very hurt. Right. I, so I get that. Um, and if the, if the, um, goal is let's just burn it down and we don't care who we hurt. Well, to some degree, they're kind of doing a good job at that right now. Not sure that's the most Christian way, yeah.

They're drawing attention to something that needs attention. However, we need to care. I'll return to the thing. We need to care and love the person who is the author, speaker, pastor, just as much as we care about those that we're supposedly trying to help. Because I personally don't think that you can heal hurt by doing harm. I don't think you can heal hurt by doing more hurt. And drawing attention to something, if you try to go to a pastor, for example, and say, you shouldn't have said this this way, you know, so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so in this church are dealing with divorce from abusive men

and that just hurt them. And okay, maybe the pastor responds well, but maybe he doesn't, right? Like, maybe he doesn't get it. Is the answer to hold him up to public shame? doesn't get it is the answer to hold him up to public shame is that gonna somehow be okay because the ends are justifying the means or are we as christians called to no matter what have the characteristics of the holy spirit the fruit of the spirit and be acting in gentleness and kindness and self-control. And I just, I do not see anywhere in scripture that it's okay to weaponize anger. I just don't. This episode is sponsored by Biola University. Biola is consistently ranked as one of the nation's leading Christian universities. It has over 300 academic programs at both the undergraduate and graduate levels, which are available both in Southern California and online.

With leading academic programs like business, film, science, and more, Biola's biblically integrated curriculum and spiritual formation also helps students grow closer to God and gain a deeper understanding of scripture. In fact, I was just on the campus of Biola touring the campus and talking to several deans and professors, and every single person I talked to was so utterly passionate about making Christ first in all things and instilling Christ-like virtues in the hearts and minds of their students. I mean, honestly, I was so impressed with how Christ-centered the entire school is. So at Biola, students become equipped for living a thriving life and career.

They'll also learn how to articulate their Christian beliefs. And most of all, they'll be prepared to serve as God's instrument in their communities and around the world. Now, through May 1st, 2023, if you use the promo code Preston, okay, my name, Preston, that will waive the

application fee for any Biolet program. Okay. So promo code Preston, waive the fee. Some restrictions might apply. Just visit Biolet.edu for more information. I would love to hear, I mean, again, you know more about this than I do, but even from the victim's perspective, if they're a, I don't want to say abuser, but if somebody who is held up as maybe perpetuating the kind of culture that leads to the kind of abuse, simply shaming that person, attacking that person, ruining that person, does that actually heal the, I don't know if the victim experiences healing from that. I mean, I don't. I've talked to a lot of therapists about that, Preston, actually, because of the, of the need to try to understand that and try to figure out, does that bring healing? Does it? Right. And I haven't found one that says it does. Now, there speak to a group of people about, you know, on a panel with a bunch of other professors and people about sex for all for a bunch of students. And everybody else was like, you know, this is just a physical release, you know, worse, you know, sleeping with different people in different nights is fine.

You know, it's no big deal. There's no morality to it. And she's a strong believer. And so she listened and they finally asked her what she thought. And she said, let me ask the women out there who are listening to this in the audience. When you've had a,-night stand with somebody for physical release, recreation basically, and you wake up the next morning next to this semi-stranger, how many of you wake up thinking, oh, this is my best life. I'm living my best life. This is what I want to feel every day. She, you know, she said they all kind of got big eyes and they were all kind of quiet because nobody would say, yep, this is my best life.

Everybody recognized there's something in them that wanted and was longing for a marriage connection with one person who would be their sort of their partner, their best friend for the rest of their life, and that that was what their hearts were longing for. They all kind of realized that, right? Well, that's the same question to ask the people when you're getting angry and you're calling people out for perpetuating damaging things, which again, don't hear me wrong. Sometimes they really are damaging. When you have proclaimed something on Twitter or you publicly called out your pastor, do you wake up the next morning, so to speak, and think, oh, this feels great. I'm living my best life, right? Like, this is what I want to

feel every day. And the reality is, I think for most people, yeah, there is something that feels really good about, like, venting. It sort of tastes good to vent, right? But we're actually told in the scripture, that's not a taste that we should be perpetuating and enjoying. Yeah. It's psychological cotton candy, right? I mean, it has that euphoric, like that rush of dopamine. I'm not saying, I don't know if cotton candy causes it. Well, maybe it does. I think sugar does. I don't know. Maybe it does. Whatever. But then you end up feeling worse in the long run. I mean, you've mentioned Twitter several times. I wonder how much of this is at least related to the kinds of platform through which many people are fighting against injustice.

Like this real soundbitey. You can hide. There's so many problems i see with that kind of uh avenue like like i you know the we don't need to get into names and specifics but i mean there was a recent you know debate about an article that was written um and you know just the twitter just went went crazy right what nuts yeah yeah and and you know um people were asked what do you think yeah and and you know um people were asked what do you think and and um you know for me i'm like you know what i'm gonna take a few weeks to

really think through this i'm gonna have lots of conversations behind the scenes with both the the author other people what do you think i really want to be patiently thinking through this and if when i respond which i i've actually, we're recording this, this is what's weird. Like, so we're, you and I are recording this now when it's released, it'll be after I have my podcast conversation with this person and a few other people. So I'm just, I'm transcending time right now. I'm not even sure. So right now what I'm doing is I'm, I'm articulating in my time right now on like how I'm processing. I'm like, you know, I, I really want to go about this patiently, thoughtfully, have long form conversations. And I simply refuse to say my

whatever on, on Twitter. Cause people like you've been, you know, silence is complicit, complicit, complicit. And I'm like, I haven't been silent. I've been talking to tons of people, embodied human beings in front of me. And I've been listening. I've been having hours of conversations with people about it, just because I don't give some soundbite response on Twitter or even a written article. I mean, that's better. think we need to move these conversations more into humanizing good faith, critical dialogues so that people can even hear tones and questions and even the kind of what we're doing now. Like, I just think that that can not only address the situation better, it can clear up any wrong interpretations on either side, and it can model maybe the kind of unity that we're looking for, because we're actually trying to listen to somebody else's perspective rather than just assuming the worst and lambasting them. So. Yeah, no, I think what you've just said is an

example of the direction that we have to go. And we have to be willing in the process of that, I honestly think there also has to be some courage to be another voice. The scripture that says, you know, everything sounds right, you know, when you're first, like, in court, the first person to speak, they sound like they're right until somebody comes along and says something else. And so I think to some degree, like, I know exactly the controversy that you're talking about. a Christian leader just recently who knows that that person, I believe endorsed that person's book, has talked to them, and they are broken. They are a Christian leader who has poured themselves out for the body of Christ, and they've been savaged, and they are just heartbroken. And this other Christian leader, who, by the way, is one of the people who gets this kind of trauma-informed perspective and just happens to have a personal relationship with this person, the person who's been so attacked. When I was talking to this leader, they said, this is a good man. This is a good man who was trying to actually raise something that actually is really important. And I don't want to get into it because that would identify who we're talking about. But he was actually trying to raise something really

important for the church to grapple with about gender differences in the church. And does it matter? Gender differences actually matter in marriage and in sexuality. And that's actually a pretty important conversation to have. But again, it goes back to the fact that we're all learning, we're never going to say something perfectly. And if we kind of wait, sort of like the, what is it in the Psalms where David says people are lying in wait. Like a lion in the bush. Yeah, like standing around a corner with a baseball bat, like somebody's going to get hit today. And listen, I know that the people who are doing that, they don't think of it that way. They understandably think they are trying to bring a sea change.

And it's out of a good heart. Again, we have to have the love for both the person that they're trying to help and for the person who's just trying to follow God's leading as a leader. as a, as a leader. Um, and, and, and to speak up for that person, um, publicly, because the problem is that this example that we're talking about that particular individual, there were plenty of people who knew exactly what he was trying to say, right? Like the people who endorsed his book or, you know, whatever, there were plenty of people, but if you stand up and say no no that that wasn't the direction then you're jumped on as well and so it it shuts down the dialogue we need to be having so much again i i i've talked about kind of the twitter platform and just or just short form soundbitey disembodied ways of going about hard

conversations. And that's just where some people live. I'm, I'm, I'm thankful because I, you know, I read a study the other day, I think it's a pretty well-known study that said something like with

Twitter in particular, I think it's something like maybe 20 or 30% of people have a Twitter account, but like 2% do 90%. Have you heard this? Do 90%. I have. I can't remember the numbers, but it's something like that. Yes. It's something like one and a half or 2% of the population do the vast majority, 80, 90% of the posts. And yet when people think that that's like the real world, that this is a microcosm for actual all of society, you get this really warped view on what's going on. Like you just have a really warped view of Christianity. That's where I'm like, thankfully, it's only a small percent of people that have that warped view because, again, most people aren't on Twitter or active on Twitter.

And they have neighbors they talk to. They have real people that they're, you know, dialoguing with. And then who knows how many of these accounts are bots that are just feeding the fire. Think about the incentives that we have to fight as believers. And I honestly say fight because we're human, right? Like just because we're followers of Jesus doesn't mean that we don't have all those sinful tendencies, you know, Ooh, I can get more clicks. Oh, I can get more comments. And, you know, I'm being effective at this thing that I'm trying to do, again, which can be a good thing, right? Like, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But it leads

to this perverse incentive that I felt all the time as a newspaper columnist. Okay, how can I say this in a more pointed way? Right? How can I not just say, you know what, I have a difference of opinion, how do I say this person's an idiot? Because I'll get more attention. And, you know, more newspapers will pick it up because it's spicier. Right? You did a podcast not long ago on failure porn. And that's kind of what we're incentivizing. psychology today, not long ago, so more than 10 years ago. And this particular article was by, you know, a woman who I'm assuming is some sort of a counselor psychologist. And, and she said to everybody, okay, so the last couple of weeks of my blog here, my articles here, I've been trying to do the positive psychology thing and do all this encouragement stuff. And I got like six clicks. So you guys clearly like me ornery. So here you go. And

actually the blog was this takedown of one of the Christian marriage authors. And the hard part, if I could just be really honest as a Christian marriage author myself, one of the hard parts about this is that every one of us who has been on the chopping block, right, every one of us, it's not that we don't see the need because we do. We care about the hurting. And that's the hard part because that's the reason we're doing what we're doing. And so that's, for example, that person that was being attacked in that Psychology Today article, that man is a colleague and a friend of And I know how much his ministry has incredibly helped so many millions of marriages who suddenly are seeing things in a different way.

And I'll name him, Emerson Egerich. He's been one of the ones that's been attacked. And I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and say, no, like I, yeah. Would I have said everything the same way he did? No, I wouldn't have. Um, you know, is it, are there things that you can go, well, I actually see why this is being misunderstood. Yeah, of course. I've told him some of those things. But that paradigm of love and respect, there has been a very necessary, eye-opening shift in the Christian community in the last 20 years because of that book that has helped people. Oh my gosh, it's not just, you know, one way, like maybe my husband has a

different need than I do, or maybe he's worried about something different than I am. And wow, I had no idea that I was criticizing him and cutting him down and that that was this like super painful thing, which is painful for everybody. But he's been attacked mostly, I think, Um, but he's been attacked mostly, I think, um, because some people have assumed that because he said, you know, you see in scripture, wives respect your husbands, you know, husbands love your wives, wives respect your husbands. And he talks about that, that the, um, the easy take on that, if you're upset about it is, oh, well, you're saying women don't need respect. Well, no, that's not what we're saying at all.

But that's an example. That's what that Psychology Today article said. It's just a sexist, misogynistic take that says women don't need respect, too. That's not it at all. That's a false dichotomy. He's talking more emphases, generalities, right? I mean, anytime you deal with male-female differences and interests and needs and everything,

you're dealing with kind of bell curves, right? I mean, you're dealing with, you know, maybe a high percentage of the male, high percentage of the female population, but not exclusive and not too- Well, you've just named the reason that we do all the expensive research projects, right? Preston not... Well, you've just named the reason that we do all the expensive research projects, right, Preston? I mean, every one of our books

is based on this big research study, including this latest one. And one of the things that we're trying to get a handle on is what percentage of people does this apply to? I always say that one of the first things I do when Jeff and I do, we do a lot of marriage conferences, I do women's events. And if I'm standing up on stage in front of a group of people, one of the very first things that I say is, look, you know, I'm going to be sharing this data. It's really good, rigorous data, costs a lot of money to get. It was hopefully done with a high degree of excellence. You need to know, we're all making generalizations. And I would say that for all of us as authors or pastors or whatever. And there's always exceptions. And so, for example, if I say that 75% of men said one way by definition, 25% didn't everybody's an individual.

And the key is to use it as a starting point. And I think the hard part, the hard part and legitimately the hard part, the thing we have to wrestle with is there are people who, because of their hurt, because of maybe what has been done to them, they hear something like where Emerson Egrich talks about, you know, what a man really needs, like the heart cry of a man, which is true statistically, right? We've quantified this,

is to know that his wife respects him even when he makes mistakes, right? So we just sort of, by definition, kind of this unconditional sense of, you know, I'm going to choose to have this respect for you. And in the same way that a wife wants to know that her husband loves her, even if she's not particularly lovable that day, right? And there are some people, legitimately, I know somebody like this, who tried and tried and tried to respect their husband, who was mistreating her. And they just thought, well, Emerson Egerich says this, so I just need to do it. Or Shanti Felton says this, so I just need to respect more. And that perpetuated the abuse, and what they needed was boundaries. And what they needed was a pastor to step in and go, no, that's not what this means. You apply it completely differently in this situation, and that's the problem, is that

there are millions of people who may be helped, but there may be thousands of people who have a misunderstanding and don't get the guidance they need and it ends up hurting. So what do you do? You're hitting that. I mean, you really touched on the point here that's related to everything we've been talking about, but especially at the beginning. Even when you said love and respect, I'm familiar with Emerson. I read his, I feel like a few chapters years ago.

So I'm not, I, you know, it's, it's more of an example of like talking about generalities or even like how things could be taken in a wrong direction. Cause I, even when you said men, you know, typically need maybe more respect, women might more need. It's about three out of four-ish, depending on the survey. But I can almost hear somebody who's maybe in a narcissistic relationship or a relationship with a narcissistic man who has got this need for respect. And that's a decent percentage.

And I could hear people saying, oh my gosh, yeah, I went down that route. And it was just horrible. It was a nightmare because I had this narcissistic man. I mean, it seems like with these conversations, there is such a need for both good faith reading and listening where don't read into things or misapply things, but also a huge need for really clear communication that gives caveats that maybe names the narcissistic man, how unhealthy demands respect could look. I think that that's a great way of putting it. The hard part is there are going to be people that just can't do that because the hurt is so strong, right? Like,

that's just so hard for them. And they want to be validated. And I get that. Like I'm I keep saying I've interviewed so the woman who has been in a in a relationship with a narcissistic boundaries, you know, and I need to get some help in order to get to a safe place and, you know, figure this out. There is a need for even that person to act in love. And I'm not talking about like continuing to try harder, right? That's not what I mean by love. But I mean, like to act in love and to say, look, I am going to have to address this relationship at some point. I'm going to have to figure out how do I get safe? How do I forgive? So I'm not like acting in bitterness, even if I'm, you know, no longer in the marriage, I'm going to have to forgive this as opposed to the human tendency, which we all understand to be like, let me see how I can get him more.

Like vengeance or just retribution or punishment for wrongdoing. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a very normal when somebody, when there's injustice, every human wants punishment, get back at them. Like I get that, but we just, oh yeah. But then we just always had to put on a Christian, like when you, even when he said love, love isn't permitting bad behavior, but at the same time, no one can say, yeah, there are times when Christians shouldn't love. I mean, we're called to love your neighbor, love your enemy. There is, there is no situation where it's okay. This situation, no more love. Like, I don't, I just don't see that. I don't see that. Well, and okay, so I was, again, I've been trying, like you, to listen a lot. I've been seeking okay, this isn't healthy for me either. And she's pretty strong about the fact that

we have to be standing up enough for the people who are hurting and the injustice, maybe even more so than the leader or the pastor who's saying, and I don't disagree with that. But again, what does it look like? And this person I was talking to, she said, there is a point, Shanti, where you have to come into the temple and start overturning the tables. Right? And that's usually the biblical reference that is used. Like, Jesus got angry, right? He was making a statement. And I see that, but I also, I mean, theologically and biblically, there's a whole thing there because he actually, it wasn't this emotional thing. He actually walked it. You see in Mark, I think't this emotional thing. He actually walked it.

You see in Mark, I think it's Mark 11. He actually, this is after the Hosanna, you know, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And he walks into the temple and it's late in the day. So the money changers and there aren't many people around. And so he looks around carefully. And then the scripture says he comes back the next day. He's trying to make a statement.

There weren't enough people to see him turn over the money changers tables the day before. And so it was like this very purposeful statement, but he turned over both the buyer. He was mad and kicked out both the buyers and the sellers. So it wasn't just a statement about, hey, you're extorting these people, right? It wasn't just about injustice. It was something else. And candidly, one of the things that people have mentioned about that passage, I do not claim to be a theologian. I'm not a pastor. but you know looking at some of what people have written about that passage it looks when he's talking about you've made this a den of robbers he's referring to a passage in jeremiah 7 jeremiah 17 something like that where he's talking about people with bad hearts who are participating in child sacrifice and are oppressing the widows and the orphans, et cetera, et cetera, this passage in Jeremiah, you're coming into the temple and you're thinking,

oh, I'll be safe here. And God says through Jeremiah, no, you've turned this temple into a den of robbers. It looks like Jesus is quoting that. So he's talking about an attitude of the heart. Like real evil people that know they're doing evil, that are not just saying things, maybe less careful than they should, or being less clear than they should have been and things taken, you know. Who knows? Well, I mean, the thing to me, as I look at that passage, that, you know, we have to deal with it because a lot of people reference it. People reference it in politics. You know, when you start fighting over this or that in the public square, like people reference it in a lot of, you know, climate change.

Like people reference that passage of Jesus got angry. Yes, absolutely true. So the first thing is we need to figure out what he was actually saying, because that's important. But then the second thing is I trust Jesus to be angry and not sin. I don't think I trust any human to be angry and not sin. And I don't think I trust any one of us to weaponize anger well. I don't see that in the scripture. I see the opposite of that.

Yeah. And somehow, I mean, we have to correlate righteous, valid forms of righteous indignation, prophetically calling people out and also love your enemy, turn the other cheek. Like there is, there are these tensions in scripture, if I can call them that, that there is no kind of one, I don't think it's just locating just one verse, one posture is like, okay, map that perfectly on this. I think we need to live in this area of how do we love our enemies well and yet oppose injustice. And I think that that takes a little more nuance and thoughtfulness. It does. And the problem is right now is because we're lacking that nuance that you're talking about, because it's right now kind of a blunt instrument where somebody makes a mistake, bam, right?

Like hit them over the head, cancel them, call their speaking engagements to cancel them, which happens a lot, by the way, which is horrible. Yeah, I've been a victim of that. by the way, which is horrible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so because right now we're lacking that nuance, we end up causing just as much hurt and just as much injustice, if I could say it that way, to good men and women who are just trying to follow the Lord, who are just trying as best they can to try to help people and who have for years. Another person, if you don't mind me sort of continuing that, I have watched what's happened to Gary Thomas with immense sadness. I'm sorry. I know who he is. I'm not familiar with what's happened to him. So he wrote a book last year called Married Sex. And Gary has recently, over the last few years, become a friend.

I didn't know him very well before. It was more like a professional, hey, how are you at events kind of relationship. One of the things that, and he is a very, he is a pastor, and he has a pastoral heart, right? Like he cares about the hurting. So he wanted to write this book on sex. And so he's always been one of the people that had been held up as an example because of his book, Sacred Marriage, that this is a good way of doing a book on sex and marriage, right? Like this is a healthy way. This is caring for women in need and being nuanced. And so because he cares about the nuance, he enlisted a therapist named Deborah Felata to co-author the book with him. And she's a woman who primarily works with traumatized women, like exactly that kind of audience that you need to sort of be careful about and cautious about.

And I guess maybe there were things in the book that people objected to, like he said something wrong. And it just sort of the mob kind of took over, I guess. And he was shredded with these vile, horrible things that were said about him. And, you know, things like, well, clearly he's a sex addict and clearly he's promoting that you should be able to rape your wife. And it's like these things that this pastor who has cared about traumatized women for his whole ministry career would never say. And so I watch the damage to his heart. And I actually, to be candid, I'll just be really honest. I actually read Married Sex recently. I didn't read the whole thing at the time. And now granted, I'm reading

the version that's been corrected because he was trying to listen. He was trying to make some changes. And so he corrected it and made some, I'm granted, I'm reading the corrected version, but I thought it was beautiful. I thought it was wonderful. And yet he has, he had three or four speaking engagements canceled because somebody is believing this horrible stuff that the mob is saying. And I think, man, if we have to be lovers, we have to be lovers of grace and truth, right? We have to be so careful. Again, fear and trembling if we are criticizing another person publicly. Well, Shanti, I'm taking you over an hour. I could keep, I mean, I just looked up and like, oh my gosh, I thought it's been like 20 minutes.

Thank you so much for your perspective. I do want to plug your book one more time. So, uh, secrets of sex and marriage, eight surprises that make all the difference. The book we didn't actually get to. We didn't actually talk about it. No. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I encourage people to check it out and, uh, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm

familiar with your, your older work and found it really helpful. So thank you for the work you're doing. I just, I love your perspective. So thank you for your honesty, your courage, and just keep doing what you do. Thanks, Preston. I appreciate that. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.