Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1071: Another Look at Christians and Marijuana

Episode Date: April 27, 2023

Ryan is a Canadian Police Officer trained in advanced alcohol and drug impairment recognition which includes being a certified Drug Recognition Expert. He is passionate about following God and working about how to apply God's wisdom and rules for life to the poverty, addiction, and justice issues he encounters daily. Ryan believes that a person can ingest/inhale THC and not necessarily be impaired and therefore marijuana can be used recreatonally by Christians. 

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God's wisdom and rules for life to the poverty, addiction, justice issues that he encounters every single day as a police officer. This episode arose because Ryan, who's an avid podcast listener, reached out to me after my conversation with Todd Miles about Christians and marijuana use. And while he agreed with a lot of what Todd had to say, he also had some disagreements that do come from his very informed background. So I was like, hey, let's have a conversation. And, you know, if you wouldn't mind, let's, I don't know, let's record that conversation and, you know, maybe post it on the podcast. So that's where we are today. So I am excited for you to get to know Ryan's somewhat different take on Christians and

marijuana use. Thanks so much, Ryan, for coming on the podcast to talk about this controversial topic. Yeah, thanks for having me. And so you, I mean, you know, I list your credentials and stuff in the show notes so people can check that out, but maybe just explain verbally, you know, what is it that you do and how it relates to this conversation?

Yeah, for sure. So I'm a police officer here in Canada. I've taken a lot of specialized training as far as alcohol and drug impairment detection. So primarily that has focused on driving impairment. So I can operate what people would think is a breathalyzer. So you're drunk, you go back to the station, you give a breath sample,

and it kind of says if you're drunk. For a long time, that was kind of the status quo. And actually, I should say, I'm a police officer in Canada, so a lot of stuff that I may say, I know you have probably mostly US listeners. So there's probably going to be some discrepancies in some of the details that I portrayed, because we have a different law here. But as far as the conversation context is concerned, and impairment, it's going to be applicable across

the road. And when I say impairment, in my mind, that is, you're drunk, you're high, and I can demonstrably show that. So how I can do that is with alcohol specifically, basically we've decided, have you heard of over 80, the over 80 rule? No. You're over 80, you're drunk. That's just how fast I drive, but yeah. No, no. So I know this is a standard in a lot of states, but here in Canada, if you have over 80 milligrams of alcohol and 100 milliliters of blood, you are drunk. And what they say is there's lots of studies supporting that at that level,

everybody is drunk. It doesn't mean that a lot of people are not drunk below that. It means that's the criminal standard of no, there's no possible way that you are not drunk at that level. The problem in the 70s that they started running into is they started getting people coming in that the officers could see, you're very impaired. You should not be driving a car. But when we put you on a breathalyzer, you're only blowing 10 or 15 and they go, you're, you can, you can barely stand. You can't form words together and you crashed a car what's going on. And they really quickly realized, well, it's drugs. People are maybe drinking a little bit of alcohol, but they're taking their,

their, their pot, their, their cocaine, whatever it is alongside that. So they needed to adjust and figure out how do we actually deal with this? Cause this is a, this is a really serious situation. People are dying every day because of it. So what do we actually deal with this? Because this is a really serious situation. People are dying every day because of it. So what do we do? So they form the Drug Recognition Expert Program, which is officers go through, take significant training in how different drug classes affect the body,

what happens, how they interact with each other. And then there's a standardized set of tests that you put people through with their cooperation, obviously. And we can determine what drug class those people are impaired by and whether or not they're impaired. So the important part of this conversation for me is when I heard Todd, which he did a really good intro, I really appreciate the scientific work he put into it. And where I started differing was that there is a difference between drug use and being actually impaired by that drug, having your decisions significantly affected by that. And this is where I start to bring those

two conversations in together, is that, you know, if you have a glass of wine for supper or a beer or something like that, there's nobody that's going to be drunk from that. You might get a little bit of a buzz as if it's a really hot day or something like that, you haven't had much, but you're, in my mind, you're not impaired. And biblically, you're not drunk. You know, from the wisdom perspective that Todd really articulately talked about, you're able to make decisions. You have your moral judgments intact, right? But then what happens when you have two beers or three beers? Or what happens when you are on antidepressants and you have one or two beers? What happens when you do take a quick smoke from a joint and, you know, you're at a campfire and everybody's got a joint and pass it around?

Well, are you actually impaired at that point? Are you drunk, per se? Is your decision-making ability inhibited by that drug. And so that's one of the things I differ on is that, um, I would, I would say that no, just using cannabis or using marijuana inherently does not mean that you are impaired and that your decision-making ability is. Okay. So you would, um, okay. So this is so funny. I wasn't even sure where you're going to go with, I don't know if you're going to be like totally pro-smoking pot for Christians or maybe more against it. So I didn't know what side of Todd's kind of perspective you'd land on. So I guess to summarize, and then I want to hear your thoughts. So for those who maybe didn't listen to most part, pro-medicinal, more anti-recreational. And the main reason is because unlike alcohol, where you can have a glass of wine and you're

not drunk, if you do get high, you're kind of either high or you're not. It's kind of like you don't have that kind of in-between stage where you can, you can responsibly, you know, smoke a few joints or whatever. You're totally fine. You know, um, he just kind of go from zero to like not high to high. If I hope I'm summarizing his perspective correctly, not even, you know, I said, aren't there some exceptions to that? Like, you know, you'll hear certain popular podcasters, you know, get it getting high while podcasting or whatever. And it's like, you didn't even know it. Like you would sometimes be like, wow, they seem really coherent. So, and now I said, aren't there different kinds of bodies, you know, certain people that can actually smoke a joint and not get impaired by, you know, being high in the classic sense of the term. So,

so anyway, that, that was kind of the summary of what we talked about. So can you, in response, maybe to how I'm summarizing it, unpack your position or maybe where you might disagree with him on that. Yeah, for sure. So where I would disagree from kind of a top level on what Todd said was that you can use cannabis recreationally and it does not impair your judgment. Okay. impair your judgment. Okay. And why I say that is, is in the drug recognition process, yes, we have to determine what kind of drug the person is actually impaired by in order to go to court and say, yeah, this person shouldn't be driving a car here. They need to have consequences for that. They need to know better. But the other part of it is that I actually have to prove

that they're actually impaired. And that's where it comes back to, you know, is this the equivalent of two beers that they had? And OK, yeah, they've got it on board, but no, they're not actually impaired by it. I can see a little bit of physiological signs that, yes, they have some cannabis on board. But no, they're doing everything just fine. I think they actually are able to drive a vehicle. They are able to make good judgment calls. They're not, again, high or drunk per se. And to specify, I don't use cannabis recreationally.

That's what people are thinking. They're like, oh, this guy is a pothead Canadian police officer. He probably grows his own up there. Who knows what they're doing up there? I should clarify. I use CBD for some medical stuff and I found incredible effects, but I specifically find the low THC because I just have personally no interest. But I also have no moral issue with people using recreational cannabis. And it's because it's because you're saying people can't have THC in their system and not be impaired. So it wouldn't be in the cat, the biblical category of being, you know, drunk or, or losing your control of your moral sensibilities.

You would say there's, there's a, there's a certain level of THC in your system that wouldn't necessarily be in that category. Yes. And that's exactly it. Um, for me, necessarily be in that category? Yes. And that's exactly it. For me, because I kind of have to look at it. If, if I know, which I know, because of my expertise, that having THC and using it in your system doesn't inherently impair your decision making, what is the problem with that? Why would that be wrong? And, and using alcohol be fine? Because in my mind, especially in my drug recognition program, there are similar things. They're both mind-altering substances. And if you take that to the nth degree,

which I think actually Todd talked about a little bit, caffeine is a mind-altering substance. It's all sorts of mind-altering substances. So where I really firmly agree with him is that this is a wisdom issue. This is not a use or do not use. This is firmly in the wisdom category. And we can expand Todd did a really good job of talking about that. But I think that understanding that using cannabis doesn't necessarily impair

you is a really important part of the conversation. What does it do? Like if you take a certain level of THC that isn't leading to full like impairment, what, what are the effects? Is it just calming? Is it, you know, more like, yeah, like maybe I, again, maybe drinking a glass of wine at night where you kind of feel a little more relaxed or whatever. Is it, is it similar to that or? Yeah. And again, coming from someone that's speaking third party, cause I've never actually done it myself. This is all just kind of physiological observations. Yeah, it generally chills people out.

POTS is actually a super weird category of drug compared to a lot of other ones because it's got some calming effects. And yet it's also got some stimulating effects. So it's like this really wild card. You know, you talk about cocaine or meth or something, methamphetamine or something like that, and it just amps you right up. Like it just takes you through the roof. You're jittery, you're doing all sorts of stuff, you know, as compared to alcohol or fentanyl or something like that.

It really drops you way down there. Like opioids are kind of a sort of a depressant. Alcohol is definitely a depressant. It chills you out. POTS does a little bit of both. And so, yes, for most people, it chills you right out. But it also can heighten your awareness, even while it dampens your decision-making abilities,

kind of getting into the impairment levels. So what most people feel is, what would describe they feel is, yeah, they're just chill, but they don't get that like three beer buzz crash where they're like, oh man, I need to really like go to bed now after I had a good evening with some buddies, where they can just sit and they can sit for hours and, and have good conversations and just hang out and be relaxed and, um, just kind of ride that. Does that, does that kind of answer your question? That does. Yeah. I mean, I got lots of surrounding questions. I mean, does it depend on, I would assume the dosage, the kind of marijuana somebody is smoking, maybe the,

what about different body types or is it kind currently like alcoholic? You get a guy who, you know, 250 pounds, who's in really good shape, his metabolism's through the roof. I mean, he can probably drink a beer an hour for 12 hours and never feel, you know, like that's, that's not where you take somebody else who, you know, might have the opposite effect. So do you have similarities with marijuana where we're different different body types different? Well, I guess there's two questions. Body types, persons versus also the type of marijuana that somebody might be ingesting or inhaling? Yeah, those are really good questions. It's kind of yes to all of them where, yeah, different strains of marijuana have different effects. The studies are really early in this just because it's been legalized in Canada a little bit longer than the States.

But there hasn't been a huge amount of studies. So most of it's anecdotal, which to me is still pretty good evidence, even if it can't be relied on totally. Yeah, the different strains do different things. Some of you, some of them call me more, some of them amp you up more. And the body type is, it's way more complicated than alcohol it's not necessarily just a metabolism issue because uh because cannabis attaches neurologically instead of just working chemically sorry i'm trying to i'm trying to simplify stuff um because it does attach to your cannabinoid receptors and it's a neurological process more than alcohol, it really kind of depends on how

your brain is built. And now that's getting into kind of science that we just don't have. We know that it affects different people completely differently. And, you know, there's lots of speculation on why that is, but it's not like I can say, hey, Preston, you've got this certain body type, you act in a certain way. And I think that pot's going to affect you this way. We just can't say that. It's hard to predict. Yeah. It's impossible to predict. Um, it just, it completely differs, uh, by person completely. So, I mean, back in my pre-Christian days, you know, I did get high a few times. And to me, for me personally, it was a zero to 60. It was, um, and I remember, I don't know how much of this has to share.

I remember driving and I should not have been driving. I mean, I was like, whew. Like it was like, I was like, I feel like I was like, yeah, it was almost not quite hallucinating, but close to it. Like I was like on the freeway and I felt like I was in the back alley and then I wasn't in the back alley. And then I was like, wait, I'm on the freeway. No, it was just. And then I remember being like,

had this hyper panic attack scared to death that like, I also like almost forgot how to drive. And then, and then I remember I was, I think I was picking a buddy up from the train station or something. I remember sitting in the back alley in my car, staring at the alley. I think it might have been like two and a half hours, just literally staring there. Kind of like in the movies, you know, where you see people tripping. Also, I kind of woke up and I'm literally staring at this trash can for two hours and I was fascinated. And it's almost like the alley kept changing almost scenes, but it wasn't.

Anyway, I was like, oh my gosh. And I don't even know, I don't, I don't even remember how much I was. I just, I never, I never remember in the few times I might be smoked pot, maybe six times or something. Um, I never remember that kind of like in between state for me, it was, but maybe, maybe I smoked too much. I don't know. Like, or maybe back then it was just way more powerful whatever you know um or is that could that be a common experience from people where for some people it is a either high or not high and the second you start smoking a joint then you're going to go to being impaired really quickly is

that true that some people that may act like that on certain people or is it not really is that more rare than it is common no i would i would say that's those are really good observations and i think that's a good comment that yeah some people it's absolutely going to blow them out of the water immediately um but there's again there's a lot of complexity that leads into that so for example um do you remember how you took it like did you smoke a joint smoking a joint yeah yeah't i never have done like an edible or something okay yeah so then uh in that perspective if you smoke really high thc joint which by the way they're like pot is way more potent now than it used to be oh it is 20 years ago yeah they just keep upping the sprains and

the thc um but there's also variability. So when you smoke a joint, it goes into your lungs, which means it's absorbed immediately into your system. So you get the hit like this. When you drink alcohol, like if you have, let's say a beer after you've mowed the lawn, you're hot, you haven't had a drink of water in a while, you're getting ready for supper and you drink a beer. That hits you and you get that buzz right away, right? If you drink a beer after dinner, when you've had food and everything like that, it takes a long time for that alcohol to be absorbed in your system. So you get a much longer, slower buzz. So it's going to be the same thing with how you ingest cannabis. Are you taking an edible? Is it a thc you know what is it is it two percent or

something like that and and you ingest it well you're probably actually not going to feel any effects for like half an hour and and then it's going to like slowly come in and you're going to ride that just like that beer and then it's slowly going to come down if you you know if you're packing a pipe with with high thc or even mid-level THC cannabis, and you take a hit of that, it's going to be a lot of THC immediately hitting your bloodstream. And so you're immediately way up here and then slowly coming down instead of a slow kind of going. Does that make sense?

It does. And so in having food, because I know more about the alcohol, you know, food, and I didn't realize the hot, wait, what is the hot weather? You mentioned a couple of times with alcohol. Is there just because you're a little more dehydrated? Yeah, totally. It's just dehydrated. And I mean, just from personal experience too, doing exactly what I just said, right?

You're like, oh man, this is beautiful weather. Oh boy, I'm half a beer and I feel like I've had four. Even though I haven't. It is. It's just the dehydration and how fast it hits your body. Because your body, if it's at all dehydrated, goes, I need liquid. And so it's going to absorb, it's going to prioritize that absorption and it's going to hit you fast. I've heard this more anecdotally so it is true that having a food in your stomach um and being hydrated both of those will curb some of the effects of alcohol like you won't it won't hit you 100

okay well that's good to know yeah and it really just comes down to simply the the body's digestion it has to it's not just the beer that it's digesting it's digesting all sorts of stuff so right uh it just limits how fast you can, uh, it can hit your bloodstream. And I think a huge thing that I've noticed anecdotally is when you're in really good shape, like we'd even go to the gym for a couple of hours and you just worked out really hard. Your metabolism is just raging. You know, I feel like it just processes, I mean, it's, it's, it's almost like it feels the same as food. Like if you, you know, you eat four slices of pizza after you've worked out for two hours on leg day, I mean, that's going to burn up pretty quickly rather than, you know, you're out of shape and you throw down some pizza. It's, it just kind of sits in there for a long time, you know? And I, I've noticed this, like if I have a beer or something, when I'm in good shape, it's like, you don't feel anything really. But like, if you're super out of shape, it's like, yeah, I need to take this one slow, you know?

Yeah. super out of shape. It's like, yeah, I need to take this one slow, you know? Um, yeah. So with THC or, or especially inhaling marijuana, like food in your system, dehydration, none of that's really related, right? Because we're dealing now with neuro neurological responses rather than is it gastrological or you're not dealing with your digestive system, your metabolism processing it, right? So it's a completely different experience. Yes and no. And that's where it comes back to how are you ingesting the THC? Is it going to be through an edible that you took and you're on an empty stomach? It's going to mirror the intake of alcohol in your system where it's going to be a lot slower if you eat it with a meal. If you eat it on an empty stomach, it's going to hit you faster, right? But yeah, if you're smoking it, it's not going to matter what you have in your gut because you're ingesting it through your lungs.

Right. Okay. I forgot what Todd said. I totally forgot what he said about this. Is THC, is it addictive, like chemically addictive? I always grew up hearing while alcohol and obviously some harder drugs and even caffeine can be chemically addictive. Marijuana is not. And I forgot what Todd said about that. What, what, what do we know about the science behind that? Is it chemically addictive or is he, or is he, maybe that category is even more complex than even a yes or no answer. Yeah, that's a good question. Yes, yes, but. And this is where

kind of the wisdom side comes in for me is where, yeah, THC can be addictive. So can alcohol. So can caffeine. So can food. So can TV. So can sex, right? It's all addictive. It's not necessarily, you know, things that come from outside of your body that are in. So for me, when I think about these topics and what wisdom means in terms of cannabis use and alcohol use, that's a really important conversation for me. Where does kind of like a good robust theology of pleasure and a good robust theology of addiction and those in my mind are very intertwined what what does that mean um so one of the things todd said that i that i again generally took issue with um was he did bring up the verse that hey you know have a glass of wine or have some wine because it makes a heart glad right and and

he didn't unpack that and i went yeah yes yes let's let's pull those strings because i feel like those those strings and where that goes really should inform our cannabis use not not whether it's super addictive not not whether um it does that make sense well it's i i i think it would be inconsistent for people to or making a lot of money could be a dick i mean playing a slot machine so many anything that gives you any kind of dopamine having a cell phone highly addictive social media and so on so i'm hearing you say that's just part of living life with our pleasure centers in our brain is we live in a pool of possible addictions um so either we just kind of take them all as seriously as we should or or kind of learn how to navigate through wisdom you know um adequate uses of pleasure

um and and being careful not to yeah not to let things overcome us or enslave us. And that's exactly it. Todd said something, why are you using it? What are you using it for? And he focused on the medical side, the recreational medical side of the cannabis. But I think it does go deeper than that, where if I come home from work, I work a stressful job, had a bad day, saw some bad stuff. Am I grabbing that beer because I want to feel pleasure to hide from the crap that I'm feeling?

Or am I grabbing that beer because I'm like, man, no, I actually, yes, it was a hard day, but I feel fulfilled by that. Like it's, yes, there's goods and bad, but I'm grabbing this to just enjoy, enjoy that I'm home. to just enjoy uh enjoy that i'm home and and in my mind it's the same thing with thc and there shouldn't really be any difference is man am i smoking this joint because uh like a lot of my friends they go camping they they won't do it all year long but they'll go camping and it's replaced drinking when they're out they'll just sit around a campfire and and you know grab an edible are they doing that because they're in a social situation where they can kind of chill and they can relax, they can enjoy the outdoors, they can enjoy good conversation? Or are they doing it because they're going camping to escape from life and they need

the drugs to do that? Even without the impairment, even if you're not impaired by the THC or alcohol or whatever else it is, that to me is the defining line. And why are you using it? No, that's, yeah, that's good. And it is even that, yeah, that's a fine line too. Like, yeah, the unhealthy escape versus, versus the other, like versus I had a hard day and I'm going to do something, whether it's, I'm going to make a nice meal. I'm going to listen to some great music. You know, there's so many things we do that kind of help compensate, you know, some of the difficulties in life. And I don't think, I don't think, I don't know too many thoughtful Christians who would say any kind of like seeking of some kind of pleasure from God's

creation is intrinsically bad if you feel enjoyment about over something. So I guess I'm still kind of, and I don't know what question I'm at, like what percentage of people in your anecdotal experience are the kinds of people that could experience healthy forms of enjoyment from smoking a joint, ingesting an edible versus kind of this getting sideways. Another thing that I would love to hear your thoughts on that kind of related is for some reason, I feel like I keep hearing so, so many, maybe not, you know, dozens, but enough stories of people ingesting an edible, usually out of good motives, like for, it's like a medical use or whatever. And just having a horrible, like violent trip.

There's one scenario in particular years ago. I mean, it was, it was so scary what, what happened. And, and I've heard that like, sometimes they put, you know, crazy amounts of THC, maybe accidentally or maybe just maybe the guy putting the THC in edibles on an edible and he's making a bad judgment call. I don't know. I don't know. It just seems like there's something with these edibles. It's just like, you're just kind of seem like you're kind of rolling the dice a little bit. So all that to say, yeah. Um, is it like a small percentage or would you say a

majority of people that could ingest or inhale, you know, a certain level THC and not end up fully impaired? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. It's hard because I kind of have with my job and the people that I interact with a little bit of confirmation bias. So I have to like fight back against that. And I'm not a hundred percent sure if I land in the right spot. So I'll kind of give you my observations and opinion, but please take that with a grain of salt. So as far as people being able to use THC and not be impaired to see that recreationally in the same way as casual alcohol use, I don't know what the percentage is because I almost often see it misused at work, right? At my police officer. But that's because inherently I'm going to get called if somebody's misusing it and

doing stupid stuff right but on so on the flip side I try to balance that with my personal experience where I know lots of friends who use it once a month or or you know use it during the summertime when they're out and about and they want to enjoy the summer and then they don't use it all winter long um and then I also have friends that you know maybe use it a little bit more than they should. Same as alcohol. So again, in my mind, it really does mirror alcohol use as a wisdom issue. And it's hard to point to exact numbers on that. It's really almost more of a relational issue.

It's like, hey, man, yeah, you've been using a lot of edibles lately. And it's starting to concern me. And, and I can have that conversation with somebody, but I don't even know if the science you could have behind that. It's like, it's like drinking. It's like, Oh man, you know, my brother, you know, and I'm just saying this hypothetically, my, my brother and my friend had, you know, I had some drinks and they started drinking more at what point from a third party perspective, did it, did it go from being casual use to not i i don't know um it's hard to say does that does that kind of answer that part of your question like like so we we spent a lot my wife's from france we spent a lot of time in in france and

europe and and there's other cultures like like france where i mean people are having a glass of wine or two with the meal every day sometimes for lunch and you know it's like it's just it's just not not a big deal not even a big deal it's just such a part of the culture and it's and it's such a part of the food and the life and the you know so i mean there's even some cultural things here like would you is that okay so having two glasses of wine a day every day for your whole life i mean andrew humerman would say you're killing your brain but have you listened to that yeah i've listened to some of his stuff he's always overall pretty good but he's a little you know what it actually um it's a really good point and something to bring in is that i feel like because of our our cultural biases we overemphasize science and we go oh man there's a study that shows this is

bad and this is bad and we go that's the end of the story um when when like you just said you know there's whole cultures that that do all sorts of stuff that the science says is terrible for you and they're actually really healthy people uh and there's no issues with that so i feel like the hard science studies are important but anecdotal evidence in my mind is actually just as important. And we need to figure out how to marry some of that stuff together. So specifically on this conversation with cannabis, we do have a culture that's very, historically, we've got a few generations that's anti-cannabis. It's no, no, that's an entry-level drug. You know, you're going to be doing meth next week if you smoke a joint today, right?

it's an entry-level drug, you know, you're going to be doing meth next week if you smoke a joint today, right? And so there's a lot of cultural bias against that. And so I feel like that creeps into some of these conversations where we do need to step back and think, if this wasn't cannabis, this is another chemical that you can take and it doesn't impair, what would our result on that conversation be? Would it be, no, no, this is still really that conversation be would it be no no this is still really bad or would it be uh well actually if we're if we're looking at this from a different perspective that's outside our culture what is the issue and that's kind of where i've fallen on that is friends drink wine or a few times a day and there's no issue so yeah well i'm you know as a parallel like what if somebody yeah was smoking pot recreationally wasn't getting

impaired you know they got a joint after lunch sometimes maybe one after dinner six days a week like most of us listen to like shit i'm not down with that even if everything you're saying is correct what if i think you're saying is correct then there could be some just maybe cultural barriers here that aren't actual they're more, they're more just situational. And what is our actual argument for why that is wrong? If in light of, we've said about, you know, the addictive thing is complicated, like everything can be potentially addictive. Um, also the, you know, what, if they're not actually getting impaired, you know, um, what is the argument against it? Just, we just, ah, just don't like it. Exactly. And that's that's kind of where i i came to on this is

for me it's you know i might try it someday again i'm like clearly i'm not against it but um for me i have other pleasures we have stuff as a family what like i have a family it's it's never probably going to be a big part of my life because there's other pleasures that i choose with other people but i can't really have a joint or i don't i don't feel like that would benefit my family and relationships my personality if I'm going out and and having an edible on a regular basis um I it does last longer in your system than um than alcohol and and I I typically am very very conservative just because of what I see on, on any type

of impairment when driving. Right. And that's just a personal choice. It's actually not a scientific thing or whatsoever. It's just a personal thing. I try to pull myself farther back than I actually think is right. Um, if that makes sense. Yeah.

And let me give a disclaimer now, cause I get all excited when I just interact with ideas. I, I, I have not smoked marijuana since I was 19 years old. I have no desire to do it. Probably will never do it. Even if it becomes kind of the new drinking where it's like, yeah, every elders meeting, you know, toss around a joint, you know, like you do in some churches where you got craft beer on tap in some of these churches, you know.

So I just, I don't, again, there's, I don't have, I just don't have any desire interest in it. So I'm not advocating for it, nor am I like to make room for me to go buy a bong after this podcast or something. Which I think makes you and I, I guess, good people who can talk about this on more of an idea level because I don't think there's any personal motivation here. What about the health benefits or problems with marijuana use? Like if somebody did, okay. So I guess, you know, we referenced Andrew Huberman, who's a famous, like, I don't know what he is, a neuro biologist or something. And he's kind of, and he's one of the most popular podcasters out there. Really brilliant guy deals a lot with like just health and fitness and,

and supplements, like just super thorough and hit is like two hour long episode of alcohol where the dude pretty much did more for like sobriety in America. And like he was saying, like, you know, excessive drinking, which he defined like more than one drink a week or something like is

actually deteriorating your, I mean, it was both my wife listened to that. We're like, all right, we're not drinking next year, you know, which we haven't stuck to, but you know, we're like, oh my gosh, this is. So all that to say, like, even, even what we would consider very, very responsible, moderate use of alcohol, there's, I would say maybe there's mixed results on what that does to your body, but at least for Huberman and others, you know, it actually is not super healthy. Neither is bacon every morning and we can go on, you know,

with food and stuff, but prolonged, let's just say responsible, non-impairing use of THC. Does that have, what do you know about the effects it has on the body and your health? Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And it's honestly something that I need to do some more research into. What I do know is that while the brain is developing, like prior to 25, it does have significant effects. So, you know, again, depending on your neurochemistry and how it affects you, it may, one joint when you're 14 may have some serious implications. Definitely ongoing use is going to have some some implications when you're in your brain development now in the science that i've seen again i haven't done a deep dive into this so take take this with a grain of salt over that the science has really hit and miss

and this is where i go back to um and i likely won't do a deep dive because my kind of outlook on this is, okay, so there's a study that I'm setting off the top of my head. I'd have to look up to get details, but it's out there. Anybody can find it. The study, it's not a new one of this community down somewhere in the States, kind of a more closed ethnic community. And they did everything they're not supposed to. They drank every day. They smoked. They ate bacon every

morning, they ate all these preserves and everything. And this was studied because nobody in that community had heart disease and all these serious illnesses. And they're like, but you're doing everything that should cause heart disease. What the crap is going on? And then eventually there were some fractures in that community and it split off and guess what tons of people started having heart disease and all of these massive issues so uh it's kind of a to me that's a good indicator that science that shows something is really good for you or really bad with for you needs to be taken with a grain of salt. And our bodies are insanely complicated. We really are in the dark ages when it comes to how our brains and our

bodies interact. We can't, yes, read it, understand it. But should we be looking at this from perspective of does pot damage our brains or hurt us long term? I think the bigger question is, well, why are you using that every day? You know, it does that seem wise, because to me smoking pot two times a day, three times a day, even if you're each individual instance, maybe wise, I feel like as a whole, maybe you should check that out. Because that's not our culture. If I was if I was here drinking a couple of glasses of wine every day, my wife would probably have a conversation with me. If I went over to France, we would both do it and we wouldn't,

we wouldn't think two seconds of it. Right. So why are we doing that? Are we, is this, is this a community, is this a culture that we're a part of and, and we're not noticing, you know, some serious side effects long-term or, or, uh, yeah, it does come down to a context and a, and a wisdom issue. I feel in the science well, important should not be the BLN at all. Does that, does that make sense? I heard that. Yeah. That study it's ringing a bell. Well, it wasn't the point of that study that human connection was like the most health, like that actually is the most healthy thing you

can do. And people that aren't connected, if so, they're maybe drinking the same amount as that group and then eating bacon with like doing all the same habits, but they're isolated, lonely, stressful, disconnected from community. Like that had a horrible effect on their body. Whereas their social connections, that's fascinating. That's super fascinating. So, which might be why certain cultures that maybe have a higher on average alcohol intake, like France and others, and Germany and other, you know, like they have this rich social connection that alcohol plays a role in. Maybe that's why they're living much more healthier lives than we would expect. Yeah, exactly. And I wonder the same thing. And for pot use then, if you're out recreationally smoking a joint or having some edibles and that's your connection time and it's not a,

hey, let's together and party and get gooned because I don't want to remember and I want to do that with friends. But they actually are chilling, like I've said a few times here. Maybe they're doing that three or four times a week. I don't know if I'd have a problem with that again. That's not my jam. I wouldn't do that. But man, that's their, their connection. They've got some rhythms there. I, I would, I would say that maybe that's, we could learn something from that. I wonder, I don't think going back to Andrew Huberman, like I

wonder if, I don't remember him even taking that into account, some of the sociological, it was very much all chemical body, just all those, just strictly kind of what it does to your body directly, but I don't think those studies were mitigated with some of these other cultural factors. Anyway, we don't

need to keep bringing him in. He's an interesting guy. I was bummed out of that episode, really. I, we don't need to get bringing, bringing him in. I just, I was, he's an interesting guy. I was bummed out at that episode really. I was like, sheesh. Yeah. Now you also asked a question a little while ago about kind of, uh, the extreme, the extreme interactions that you had, you'd maybe had a friend or an acquaintance. Yeah. Yeah. Are you noticing that with edibles in particular? Yeah. So, um, typically, uh, again, this is, this is more of my observational

evidence combined with, uh, with my training. So again, there, there is some confirmation bias here. So, but it's, I feel like I am exposed to a lot of it, so I can speak with some authority on it. Um, typically those experiences are the equivalent of a blackout drunk. It's an overdose, the THC overdose. And your body just reacts differently. You can react really violently. It is interesting how there is a culture, like Todd was saying in his episode, where you go, oh, no, it just chills people out and there's no issues. Well, no, when you overdose, all sorts of things can go funny.

And that really is up to your brain chemistry and your individual person some people just sit there and they lie on the floor and they stare at the ceiling for six hours but other people can get super violent and it's totally unpredictable but typically it has to do with two things it's either an overdose or yes three things an overdose or you have a brain a brain chemistry that interacts with THC even at lower levels in that way or it's poly drug use so you're you're actually 10 beers in and you smoked a joint and you took a hood of cocaine like it's and then suddenly you fly off the rails so in my in my job poly use is, is typically the primary thing that I see

where people will go and we'll go into a situation and we'll have to arrest somebody for their own safety and for everybody else's because they're going nuts and destroying everything. And all their friends will say, Oh no, no, no, they just smoked a joint. And I can clearly see from my drug training, I'm like, Oh, you're also on meth. Uh, like it's, I can see. And just nobody, nobody else wants to say that because they don't want to admit that everybody was, you know, use a little bit of meth on the side. Right.

But every once in a while you run into somebody and I'm like, I actually think legit there. They just are having a really bad trip and they're probably overdosing. Down, I think it's a little bit different in Canada with the THC dosing and edibles. Because what can happen is you have an edible and then half an hour goes by. I'm not feeling anything. I'm going to have another edible and another half hour. And you're like, oh, I'm starting to feel it, but not much. And you have another edible and suddenly you've had ridiculous amounts, but it's not going to hit you fully for another hour.

And so that happens on a semi-regular basis. and so that's that happens on a semi-regular basis um down in the states because a lot of it's unregulated and it's some joe in his garage that's measuring it out with you know stuff he got from this pharmacy um here in canada we have a benefit where you go into you know the the pot store the cannabis store and you say i want one percent and it's it's right there oh there's two percent gummies here's here's the thc that's as much and it's very there. Oh, there's 2% gummies. Here's the THC that's as much. And it's very regulated. You know that you are getting that much and that's just what it is. It's no different than alcohol percentages. You know you're getting it and it's a lot safer as long as you don't take five gummies because you're impatient. Right, right, right, right. So for medical,

this is going back to my conversation with Todd, where to me, the line got a little fuzzy. And I think it was, I think he, you know, saw it too, you know, what determines medical use, you know, okay, I broke my leg. And instead of taking Vicodin, I'm going to take some prescribed edibles. Okay. I'm going to take some prescribed edibles. Okay. Most people, either they're against Vicodin and marijuana, or they're being inconsistent, I think, and saying, no, this, yes, this, no, you know. Okay. We're all pretty much on board with that kind of medical use. What about like curbing anxiety?

What about, you know, like me, you know, I've got a very high stressful job slash ministry slash life. Like, you know, I could, I could probably easily go into a doctor and get a prescription if I want to do for anxiety levels and stress and lack of sleep and, you know, waking up throughout the night. And, you know, um, like I, you know, I I'm sure I, but like what, what constitutes you have, okay. Yes. you have a level of anxiety that now it would be medical use versus no, you just had a kind of a stressful day and this isn't medical use. This is just recreational. Like to me, that line is just so fuzzy. Like when people say yes, medical use, no recreational use. Do you, do you, yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Do you see that same fuzziness or? Yeah, that's a really good question. There's a lot of debate in that because it, Do you see that same fuzziness or?

Yeah, that's a really good question. There's a lot of debate in that because that opens up this huge can of worms in kind of drug use. And so I don't know how big the harm reduction model is in the States. Have you heard of the harm reduction? I know it sounds familiar, but even if I haven't heard of it, it doesn't mean it's not big. Yeah, I've got it. Okay, fair enough. Yeah. And I don't know.

I know it's big in Canada because it was kind of developed in on vancouver's east hastings in here in um canada again it's more complicated i'll just leave it that um with the idea is is that you've got you've got addicts that aren't necessarily at the spot that understand or can admit that oh man i i need help even though i've been living on the street for five years i I'm desperately addicted to opioids and I need them eight times a day. You have to be at a certain spot where you go, man, I am really done and I will do anything it takes to get away from this. I still can't, I'm an addict. I can't actually choose not to use that at this point,

but I need to be done at whatever it takes. And in order to beat an addiction, you have to have supports, the right supports at a certain time when you make that decision, or you tend to just slip into another cycle and then you come back around and you're right at that point. So the harm reduction model recognizes that, basically says, what if we actually quasi support that addiction by keeping them as healthy as they can by providing them subsidized housing, clean needles, not the drug itself, but although some people actually would go that far, and in order to keep them alive and as healthy as we can to the point where they can reach their own decision and in order to find help. And so that harm reduction model has trickled down to what you're talking about, where,

hey, I'm just experiencing some anxiety here. And so we'll prescribe anti-anxiety medications, which have a whole host of side effects. And doctors are starting to recognize, well, actually, pot does a lot of the same things for certain people, not for everybody. And we can give it to them and reduce anxiety. So in my mind, if we do kind of subscribe to that harm reduction model a little bit, which has some pros and cons, if you're experiencing a whole bunch of anxiety from your job and you go and get some pot, what else are you doing to actually fix the problem and to actually get healthy? Because if you're using the pot to be able to enable a lifestyle that's not biblical, that doesn't have good rest and Sabbath in it, well, you're just creating an addiction because

you're never going to be able to function without it. And so I actually personally have no problems at all. If people want to go to the doctor and use pot for anxiety with the caveat that they had better be getting, like actually sorting out what is the underlying issue of your anxiety, because you can't just keep using pot for 40 years to help with your anxiety. What is the underlying cause and fix that so that you can actually stop using it? You almost use it as a crutch, right? You just need to get through a certain time. You need to be able to function for a while in order to get healthy. And then with the intention that this is going to be a short-term thing.

So in my mind, that would be a wise medical use of drugs. Cause I mean, yeah. So again, I don't know much about the different medications and stuff, but from what I've heard, you know, some, if not a lot of the anti-anxiety medication people take or antidepressants or whatever, like versus marijuana. I mean, it seems like of the healthier choice, marijuana and maybe even least addictive. I don't know. Like I, I I've at least heard that it's, if we're okay with anti anxiety medication, antidepressants, which most people would be okay. Again, like you said, as a temporary measure, as a way to, you know, figure out your life or get through a season or something. But if there's deep core issues in your life that need to be changed, which typically that's what's causing, you know, um, the anxiety, then, then we

need to address those alongside take, taking temporary measures. But just in looking at the temporary measures, it seems like, again, I'm not, I'm not a doctor, so I don't know, but marijuana might be the healthier of some of the options that have are well accepted. Yeah. I would agree with that 100 the even from my training the what some of those anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications do to your brain like at a really fundamental level some of it from the limited science that i've seen well not not limited from the science that i've seen we don't know how to reverse even though the brain is really has the ability to fix itself.

It's, it's catastrophic what we're doing with a lot of these drugs long-term, uh, where I just, I don't see that from cannabis. Again, you know, I might take this back in five years, but I 100% would rather to try if I had a surgery or something, try a joint than six weeks of like Oxycontin. 100%. But that's also, it's not cut and dry because I know people that have used marijuana post op, they were like, I don't want to use the opioids. This stuff's awful.

And the pot worked really well. They were high for three weeks and until the went away, which really wasn't any different than taking oxys or fentanyl, right? You're high the entire time, so you don't feel the pain. But I've talked to other people that have tried it, and they're like, it did not dull my pain whatsoever. It didn't work for me. And that's where the variability comes into effect, where, yeah, sure, try it, but it's not going to work for everybody. It's not like some of the harder designer drugs. Is it a totally different cat? Cause I mean, you deal with people, you know, on many different types of drugs, low level, high level, illegal, legal, whatever. What about on the other side, kind of like a Ritalin or stuff that treats, I guess, would treat ADHD typically something like that. Yeah.

And that category of medication, is that just a form of speed? I mean, is it like a low dose of cocaine? Is it part of the same plant and stuff? Because I've heard that there's a really high percentage of people that are on some kind of like low doses of speed largely to treat kind of ADHD type stuff. Is that, this is all new to me.

Yeah, that's 100% correct. Really? And yeah, it's not cocaine. It's their amphetaminesines so essentially they're a slightly different chemical compound that's that's very very similar but different from methamphetamine um methamphetamine would be hard it's down in the states in some states it's actually legal to prescribe methamphetamine clinically for adhd because the problem because we have kind of a medicated society, I would say, we just, there's a problem, throw a pill at it. I have massive issues with this and that's a whole

other conversation. But what we've done like neurologically is especially as your brain is developing, okay, so you've got ADHD rather rather than treat the symptoms, or maybe say, hey, maybe our school systems are actually some of the issue here. And it's actually not how our brain is functioning. We don't, we don't look at it that way. And we go, we need to show everybody in the same, they need to be similar. This person has ADHD. And please don't get don't anybody hear me wrong that I'm saying that I'm making some blanket statements here that aren't, that have exceptions. But with, we're prescribing ADHD medication and as the kids grow, the brains are adapting and they go, oh, I actually don't need to create the chemicals that this is fulfilling

the place of anymore. And then when their body is, body tries to reach homeostasis, because every time we use drugs, it's always trying to reach our normal, our individual normal. It actually creates less and less of whatever the amphetamines are filling the gap of, which means we have to use more of the amphetamines to actually control the ADHD. So now we're a generation or two in of just medicating everything. And Ritalin doesn't work anymore in a lot of cases because we keep upping and upping and upping. So now we're going, well, we have something else. It's methamphetamine.

Why don't we give methamphetamine to kids and it'll help with their ADHD? And it's actually becoming quite prevalent down in the States. Not here yet, as far as I know. But yeah, it's very dangerous. Is Ritalin one of many different kinds of, or is that kind of, that's just like the brand of this same chemical that is probably goes under a different, a lot of different labels or? Yeah, that's exactly. It's like the Kleenex is a tissue and Ritalin is an amphetamine type thing. So there's lots of different brands and slightly different chemical compounds, to be honest, that all try to accomplish the same thing. If you're on ADHD,

you can focus on all the things your brain wants to focus on and then actually focus on what you want to. And again, that's kind of, I'm not an expert on that one. I have friends that have ADHD and that's how they described it to me. Can you, if you're around somebody who's,

again, smoking, has THC in their system, is not totally high and debilitated can you tell like are there other certain signs that you can see like oh yeah you you're totally functional or whatever but you I could tell you've had a joint recently um or is there really no signs if they're functional it's there's no real signs yeah there is um and it all depends obviously Obviously, the more drug, the more physiological signs I can see. But it's funny, one of the one of the big ones for me is pupil size. Okay. So depending on which drug you're on, your pupils can actually get way bigger than they should be at a certain light level or way smaller than they should be.

So if you're on a drug that either depresses you or like an opioid that really slows your brain function down, people who are on opioids will be in the middle of the night and they have pinpoint pupils because their body goes, whoa, whoa, I need less information here and I can't function. So pinpoint pupils when they're high. With cannabis, it's actually typically dilated pupils. Not always. Again, it's kind of a wildcard drug. It's typically dilated.

And so it's funny. It'll be the middle of the day and I'll talk to somebody. I'll be like, man, they're a little bit off. What's going on here? Oh, man, like we're all pinpoint pupils because it's bright sun out and they've got these huge dilated things. But again, it's also like just a little decision making. It's pauses in responses. You shouldn't have to think about that response. And that's starting to get into the impairment levels. It is very difficult, even though I can see

some indicators at low levels when people use. Well, Ryan, I should probably let you go. Thanks so much for a fascinating conversation. I wonder how many emails I'm going to get from this one. I feel like I need another disclaimer. I am not advocating in the ingestation nor the, I'm not advocating the ingestation nor the, what's the other, inhalement or whatever of THC or Ritalin or whatever else, cocaine. I don't know how many drugs we covered today. So, yeah, this is just a way of engaging in an informative conversation so that we can think better about this important topic. So thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise with us. Thank you. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.