Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1082: Surviving Abuse and Helping Lead the Persecuted Church: Naghmeh Panahi

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

Naghmeh has one of the most incredible stories I’ve ever heard. Raised in a Muslim family, converted to Christ through her brother’s dream at age 9, helped start a massive house church movement in Iran where she faced tremendous persecution, which eventually landed her husband in prison. She then found herself on a national stage fighting to get her husband out of prison—talking to major news outlets (CNN, Fox, etc.) and to presidents Obama and Trump. She then had to face some hard truths about her abusive husband, and when she spoke out against abuse, she faced a backlash from some high-profile American church leaders. Naghmeh currently lives in Boise, ID and speaks out against the abuse of women in the church and continues to serve the house church movement in Iran. Even though that culture devalues women, the church in Iran is growing rapidly through the leadership of women, of which Naghmeh is a part. Naghmeh has written about her story in a forthoming book: I Didn't Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse. You can learn more about Naghmeh from her website: https://www.tahriralnisa.org/about/naghmeh-panahi/

All right, friends. Man, this upcoming podcast was something else. My mind and heart are still reeling from it. My guest today is Nagme Panahi. I've known of Nagme for a while now. Ever since I moved to Boise, the name Nagme was pretty well known in Christian circles, and you'll see why when you hear her story. when you hear her story. But man, she has been through a lot. As the title of this podcast suggests, this was a pretty raw episode. And Nagme has been on just one of the most, I mean, incredible journeys filled with a lot of pain and suffering, and it gets really raw. So Nagme, she does talk about her experience of being a victim of spousal abuse and even the aftermath of the church's response to that, which I'm not going to say anymore. I'll let her share about that. So just, I guess, a warning up front that we do get into some touchy topics. And I'm just so impressed with Nagme and what God has been doing in and through her. So I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation. Please welcome to the show

for the first time, hopefully not the last time, the one and only Nagme Panay. Nagme, thank you so much for coming on Theology in a Raw. This is something I've been looking forward to, honestly, for years. So thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. And we're both in Boise, but we are doing this via video. You could have... My basement is just absolutely trash.

I've had guests in here, but you would not want to be in here right now. This is... It's pretty hideous right now. People ask me, how are you from Boise? People always ask me, you're from Boise? Are you living in Boise? Like, what are you doing there? Like, where's that? Or yeah. Well, you have one of the more incredible stories that I think I've ever heard. I would love for you to just go back to the beginning, as far back as you want to go, talked about, you know, your childhood, how you came to the States, how you got saved. And I mean, that's just the beginning of so many

interesting experiences, some pretty horrible, some very amazing that you've had. So yeah. Well, I was pretty much after I was born in 77. pretty much after I was born in 77. There was a revolution in my country, birth country of Iran. And so there was chaos in the land. And I was born into a very, well, my dad was really strong Muslim. He really wanted the Islamic revolution to happen. He thought religion is going to solve all the corruption that seemed to have been getting into our culture. So before 1971, women were free to wear mini skirts. My mom, I have photos of her mini skirts and no head covering. She was actually, for as long as, I know thousands of years earlier,

there were women military leaders. But for my mom's time, she was the first woman in military. She was the first graduate. So she was kind of pushing the line for a woman having more than just house roles and things like that in a very Islamic environment, although Iran was not an Islamic government. So she was she had her gun with her. She would she would have to fight, like kind of be in a place where usually men were. And she really didn't want the Islamic revolution. My dad, she actually had to protect the king of Iran. So we had two extreme political arguments in our house

where one didn't want the revolution, one had to protect the king, one wanted the revolution. So that was the environment, house environment I grew up into. Well, the revolution did happen. And then soon after that, Iran entered into an eight-year war with Iraq. So I come from the experience of war and seeing death and missiles and bombs and chemical warfare. Towards the end of the war, chemical warfare was happening. So that's when we decided to leave Iran. And my dad had studied in the U.S., Oregon State University. He got his

master's in engineering. So he was actually able to just get us a visa and have us come to the U.S. when I was nine years old. So that's how we ended up here as Muslims. We knew early on my dad prepared us. We do not lose. We do not. We keep our culture. We're going to go in a country where there's a different culture. There's a different religion. We want to keep our culture. So keeping our religion was very closely knitted to keeping our culture. Well, that didn't go well. Soon after we came to the U.S., my brother actually had a vision of Jesus, which is normal in Muslim countries.

A lot of people have or Muslims have visions and dreams, and that's how they come to know Jesus. He had a vision of Jesus, told me about it, and we both became Christians. And we were in San Jose, California, and my dad almost took us back to the war. And it was towards the end of the Iran and Iraq War. It was an eight-year war, and I think there was like a million men that had died. So my dad wanted us to take us back, and one of his brothers had found a job at Micron. And so he suggested coming to a place called Boise.

That was 1988. And he said, you know, there's not a lot of Christians there. Because it sounds funny to Americans, but in that culture, a lot of people equated hollywood and that culture to christians so and corruption the whole like just the sexual and the you know all of that drugs and alcohol like they equated it with this is the christian country that's how they behave they're pretty loose on stuff and so they thought actually moving away from a bigger city to a smaller city, they were moving to a less Christian place. So that's how we ended up in Boise. My parents were kind of running away from us being influenced by the Christians.

No matter how much we told our parents, no one had really shared about us. My brother had a vision. They didn't believe us. And so we ended up in Idaho and I pretty much grew up. So we ended up in Idaho and I pretty much grew up. I remember coming, going to middle school and people not knowing where I looked really strange. I was the only person that was not white and they couldn't figure out where I was from. They didn't understand where Iran was. A lot of people thought I was Hispanic. So it was really strange all of a sudden coming.

Hispanic. So it was really strange all of a sudden coming. I think California was a good middle ground where there was diversity, but all of a sudden coming to Boise where there was really no diversity. And so I grew up in Boise. Was that hard? I mean, or was it at that age? I mean, was it, did you feel, was it like racism against you or is it more just kind of ignorance that just is kind of annoying or? I think all of it it I think there was curiosity of where are you from what do you guys eat how do you dress like how do you speak um there was definitely racism too uh where I uh would feel like when someone treats you bad for no reason like there's an anger that like why are they treating like this so there was a little bit of that um and there was a lot of curiosity as well um the the curiosity didn't bother me i actually thought it was pretty cool that they wanted to know where i was from and what that

culture looked like but i you know i was definitely the only girl with the darker hair and skin and and there was no diversity so i it was strange for me because also I hadn't seen anyone with light skin for me it's like I don't know if you've gone to Africa or wherever where it's like white person walks in and they're like whoa I was kind of like amazed by that too like whoa blonde hair and like like light skin like who are these people so i was i was kind of curious as well was your when you you and your brother became christians was your your dad being a very devout muslim was he furious or what was that yes he was very angry he said uh you lost your culture because our the religion was so it's so cultural like ramadan there's things you celebrate. And that was their biggest fear. And, you know, having grown up in war and I just have a heart for refugees.

And I understand a lot of them come here and that's their number one fear. It's like, we don't want to lose our culture. Let's get together. And so that was our biggest, my dad's biggest fear. And to him, that had happened, that we were, you know, we'd lost our culture. And he was very angry. My mom was very angry my mom was very angry even though she was more of an agnostic muslim believed in god considered herself muslim

but wasn't really practicing um yeah even in iran she refused to even when the islamic revolution happened she fought not to wearing the head covering she didn't want to be forced to do the islamic prayer like she fought everything, even the fasting and even the woman's badges were taken. She had, you know, badges, military badges and stuff. They were taken from her. She fought all of that. So she considered herself Muslim, but probably more progressive, like fight, you know,

and more of an agnostic, but they were both very angry. And I didn't really see them come to know Christ until I graduate from college. So all pretty much most of high school, they were very hostile. Towards the end of high school, I didn't realize at that time, but they had started reading the Bible. My mom had gone to a very bad depression. So they became less hostile when I was 16. So from nine to 16, they were pretty hostile trying to make us not read the Bible or pray together or making sure there was no talk of Christianity, there was no Christian friends, that we would be

de-brainwashed, you know, back to Islam. But when we went to college and came back home, they had both said we're Christians, we want to be baptized. So I am sad to say I wasn't part of the process of bringing them to Jesus, even though they did say there was a lot of influence seeing me and my brother the way we honored them and respected them after we became Christians, which is what they didn't expect. We actually became better kids, according to them. So that was what was shocking to them, that we actually became better people. Interesting. what was shocking to them that we actually became better people. Interesting.

The cultural thing is interesting because prior to Islam kind of taking over Iran, it was a very, I mean, hugely Christian population before, right? I mean, so if you go back to the deep roots, I mean, the Iranian culture is very Christian. The Persian culture has so much history with Christianity. You have Esther, you have Darius, Cyrus. much history with Christianity. You have Esther, you have Darius, Cyrus. And it's so sad because I've been to those sites where there's buildings that are 3,500 years old and where King Cyrus was and when King Darius was, I've been to where Esther was and in Iran. There's so much history. And also the day of Pentecost, it says where 5,000 became Christian, mentions apartheids, Medes, and Elamites. Those are all Persian.

Those are all people in Iran. So the early church was in Iran and Persia. There's so much history with the Jews and the Christians in Iran. And hundreds and hundreds of years later, 400 years later, I think, after Christianity or Islam came. Yeah. Maybe it was 600 years. 600 years. Yeah.

600 years later, Islam took over. And no one knows. Even Persians don't know that our history was actually very Christian. Because Islam pretty much took over. And either Christians had to convert or they were killed. There's actually in some history books about like the Bloody Mountain where there's so much blood of the martyrs that there was just river, just the bottom of the mountain was just full of blood. And so, yeah, most people don't know we have a very rich history with Christianity,

but we've forgotten that because it's been 1400 years of Islam. What's the current or when you left, like in the 80s, what was the percentage of Christian? What was the Christian population at that time? I didn't even know there was Christians. So when I grew up in Iran, I didn't even know there was religious minorities of what they were. And I didn't even know they were persecuted. It wasn't until I was in my 20s after college, when I went back to Iran as a missionary, I realized that how heavily persecuted Christians were, especially converts from Islam. So when I grew

up in Iran, from what I understand, 80s and 90s, there was maybe one convert a year, and people would be so excited. One Muslim converted. Wow, this is great. That's what the local churches would tell me. And then something happened in the late 90s. A lot of pastors were martyred and they made the news. Brother Haik, Brother Dibaj.

And after the 90s, we saw kind of like the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. Early 2000s, we saw an explosion where Iran right now is the largest growing house church movement in the world. And even more so recently, there's been protests against the Islamic government. Especially the women have been leading it, taking off their head covering, saying we don't want this oppression anymore. But even more so now, there's more of people coming to know Christ because they've realized their government is not the answer to trying to have a better society or help them with their issues. So more people are actually open to the gospel. But 80s, there was almost nothing. 80s and 90s, 2000s, there's been an explosion of people becoming Christian. And I mean, you've played some role in that. Can you take us forward now to the time when

you said you went over in your 20s as a missionary back to Iran? Yeah, I went as a single woman. You know, in our 20s, I don't think we're very smart. We kind of don't think anything bad could happen to us. So I went to Iran thinking, you know, nothing. I didn't even realize the danger I was in. But I happened to be become part of the largest growing house church movement in Iran. I was the pastor's wife. I met my husband. He was a very charismatic person, which drew me to him because for me, the charisma meant so much passion for Christ. And we ended up, we were in our 20s and we somehow God used us to reach the young, the 20s and below teenagers and our church within a couple years grew to over 2000 people. And we had home groups, house churches in over 30 cities. So

became part of that movement. Of course, there was a lot of arrests and threats to myself, to my husband at that time. We were arrested many times, had guns pointed to us to deny our faith. So interesting, because I'd grown up pretty much in the US, I was in Iran as a Muslim, became a Christian, grew up as a Christian in the US. And then to go back and really firsthand see persecution, where carrying a Bible, telling anyone about Jesus, gathering in a home quietly with other believers just to pray was a crime. And I saw people die for it, arrested for it. And so that was really eye-opening for me. And I think God used that time for me to see persecution because years later, when my husband went to prison, God gave me a platform to speak out about the Iranian government's

cruelty towards religious minorities, such as Christians. But I saw firsthand what Christians were suffering in Iran. Golly, I mean, that must have been frightening. And yet, the church kept growing and growing and growing. And you said, you know, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. I mean, you experienced that firsthand, right? Was it just the more the church was persecuted and thrown in prison and killed, the more it kept growing? And how do you, obviously the answer is the God, the Holy Spirit, you know, is there other kind of like, I don't know, like cultural things that add to the explanation of why people were coming to Christ? Or was it just completely just miraculous?

Well, I think it has to be the Holy Spirit. Anyone who's worked with any religion, you know, especially Muslim world, you can't really bring anyone to Christ. It has to be a move of God. Like you can't take credit. And so definitely move of God. But there was something about the church that I haven't seen ever since about the home church or the underground church. There's such a deep fellowship and intimacy. Someone would be arrested. We'd be in a home praying, praying, praying. And then also kind of like the disciples not knowing, are we going to be next? Who's, what's the sound outside of there coming after us? So there was always this overcoming fear as Paul prayed, you know,

pray for me that I would have boldness. We would pray for boldness because there was always fear that would try to like just trap us. And so had to fight against that but we had each other and it was such a deep intimacy in the home groups I just it was beautiful we were truly one body and we could truly see everyone's gifting the evangelist and we you know the prayer warriors the evangelists the pastors the teachers we could see all of those gifts really play out in the home groups and I don't know I think think that unity really, as you know, Book of Acts talks about that unity in the church that kind of is surprising to the outside world, that also there's an anointing and there's a power

when the church is unified and intimate, that God just moves forward in such a powerful way. And we just saw that supernatural protections. And we knew if it was time for us to go, that we were in the hands of God, that there was just that assurance that we just knew, I guess we weren't as afraid over arrests anymore. We've been arrested so many times, threatened so many times. We'd seen people die, be killed for their faith, that there was a peace, that God has our time in his hand.

And when the right time, if he would only allow us to be killed or put in prison and we could trust him as Paul did. And he would use that for the gospel. And he did those him as Paul did. And he would use that for the gospel. And he did. Those who were in prison, there was a few that were martyred. God used it to even spread the gospel even more. And, you know, and so there was this piece of trusting God in the midst of the persecution. But there was no division because the outside enemy was so powerful. We kind of there was not really a lot of division within. We really stuck together. And there was a unity that not really a lot of division within. We really stuck together and

there was a unity that I haven't really seen anywhere else. I would imagine when you read the New Testament, you have experienced a lot of what we read about. Like when I read the book of Acts, you know, persecution, the church is growing, they're meeting in homes, there's this profound unity, there's sharing of resources. Like it's, I read it from a distance. I do. Like I, you know, my typical American church experience is, has been good for the most part. But it's not that, you know, but I mean, when you read Acts, are you like, yeah, that, that

was, that's pretty much what we did. Yeah. And I miss it. It's, and I think, I don't know know i've kind of advocated for home groups here locally and i shared it with my pastor too um i think there's just the beauty in about uh just being in homes and that culture is a warm culture so that uh you know what's happening even now in the middle east is at first i've been discouraged about what the amount of persecution and believers are now becoming refugees all over the world. But God showed me through the book of Acts,

that was the early church. They were scattered, they were persecuted, there was unity, there was intimacy, they met at home. So, you know, the early church was, is what we're seeing with the persecuted church. It was under persecution and it was in homes. And it's a warm culture of being in and out of each other's house and having food. I don't know. I'm pretty sure you've probably been in the Middle East. I actually heard where you've been to Israel and some of your podcasts. So there's just that warm, like you're invited to people's house almost immediately. And food is such a big part of the culture of getting together, having food and staying up till one or two in the morning. It's a culture that doesn't really follow the exact time. Could be annoying for other cultures, but you don't really have a timeline and you kind of show up and you leave whenever.

And you could be even working with refugees here what i love is you could be in their house for five six hours and you're not always uh i know it could be hard for a different culture but that's the culture that you're kind of in you just kind of enjoy each other's company i think what they call it like a event time versus clock time like here you know the party starts at seven and it ends at nine whereas in i, I would imagine in Iranian culture, it's like, well, it starts when people show up and it ends and people leave. It's kind of like, oh, you have a two hour goodbye. So there's no way. By the time you're saying goodbye, it's like one or two in the morning.

You're saying bye at 10 or 11, but you don't really leave. Yeah. It's an event. It's not about time. People don't really call it a time. And so, yeah, so that, that was kind of my experience with the house churches. And when did that season end? Because you're here in Boise now. So something had to have. Yeah, I was in Iran 2001 until the end of 2005.

OK, so about four years ended up leaving Iran. We were just so heavily persecuted as we were leading the largest house church movement, me and my husband. We were so heavily persecuted, we decided it's actually hurting the church because the government was following us. They were going to figure out other believers. It was endangering the church. So decided to come here, back to America, got my husband a marriage visa, and we came back to Boise. We were actually overseas end of 2005 until he got a visa, but we ended up in Boise early 2006. Okay. And then what did that season look like? Kids back to back. My daughter, 2006. My son, 2008. They were 18 months apart,

back to back at my daughter, 2006, my son, 2008, they were 18 months apart, working full time. It kind of, it's weird. It changed from the house church and intimacy to kind of more of an isolated individual life of working, coming home, taking care of the kids and kind of that door had kind of closed. We were still doing Skype calls and things with the believers in Iran and trying to pastor them over online, I guess. So my husband's leading them still from online. Yeah. I think we did a conference in 2007 with actually Calvary Boise, where we invited a whole bunch of believers and baptized like over 120 and um and so so we did have a few interactions in turkey with them but as time was going by our our connection was getting less and less because we weren't actually in the country in the home so it was uh we weren't intimate as we used to be but the church movement kept growing and growing like it's i mean all the way even today. And we'll get to, you know, current situation.

But so your husband at the time, he ended up, I'm trying to look at the years. Was it 2002? Yeah, he went back to Iran 2009. 2009. Yeah, when our son was one, he was really homesick. He had never been to the US. So all of his family, everyone was there. We decided he would take the risk and go back to Iran and see what would happen. And he did go back. He was arrested. But he was told as long as you don't you haven't been part of the house church

movement for four years, really, you haven't been in country. So they said as long as you don't touch house church. There was a few cities the Iranian government is sensitive about. They're the more religious cities like Mashhad and Qom and north of Iran, Mazandaran. So they said, stay away from those cities. Those are our religious cities and don't touch house church

and you can come back. And so Saeed had thought about doing an orphanage or something and they were there more than happy for us to do humanitarian work. So he decided to keep going back and forth to Iran from 2009 until 2012 when he was arrested. And the reason he was arrested is he did cross the line. He did start trying to gather the house churches again, which was the red line with the

Iranian government. So yeah, I got the call that he was arrested in 2012 and July of 2012. Pretty much my life changed after that. I prayed for about six months, prayed, fasted, hoping he would get out. And then he didn't. And it seemed like they were going to give him a long sentence. They were going to give him like a 10 year sentence. So I decided to go to media about it. And pretty much my first media appearance was Hannity of Fox News. And then the rest is history. And I mean, after that, there was explosion of media, CNN. I mean, also the very secular CNN was also one of the channels that kept inviting me. Fox News was definitely the top one, became very political very fast because US and Iran were making a nuclear deal.

So there was all of a sudden, this story got really big. Why are we making a deal with a country that has Americans as hostages? And so all of a sudden I was on all over the news. I was in front of our Congress. I was speaking at the UN. All of a sudden,

it just became a really, really big story, which is not what I had expected when I initially went to media. It just blew up. I mean, that's, that's, yeah, that's crazy. And it probably, it just kept snowballing and you kept getting invited to speak all these different outlets. Yeah. And what was beautiful about it was there was a unity in the body of Christ about this is wrong, whether you're wherever political party you were at. I was actually had a wide range of friends, but this was unifying that Iran should not be persecuting Christians. They should not be, you know. And so God really gave me a platform to call out the Iranian government. Even at one time, the Iranian president had come to the UN in New York and I chased down his delegation. It's a funny story. They told our FBI they were

afraid of me. I ended up in the same hotel as they were. I didn't know I was getting this. I ended up getting a room in front of the UN to be close to the UN so I could hopefully pass by the Iranian delegation. But I ended up getting a room in front of the UN to be close to the UN so I could hopefully pass by the Iranian delegation. But I ended up getting the same room in their same hotel because that hotel was boycotted because Iranian government was there. I couldn't find any room except in that hotel, which I didn't know. So I ended up chasing, I ended up seeing them and running after them. Here's a woman uncovered. I couldn't get to the president. And I think he jumped into the elevator,

but I got to their foreign minister, Zarif. And here's a woman, her husband's in prison. I was looking at him, calling him out, saying, you guys, you should not be imprisoning my husband. You should not be imprisoning Christians. You know, so I felt like I had a voice to be for the Christians too, not just for my husband, like this is wrong. They're, they're, the Christians are very peaceful people. Why are you killing them, imprisoning them? But it was

very interesting. I could just see in their face, like if this was Iran, she would be dead. She's uncovered. She dares to talk to us. And, but they actually, the fbi show up uh to my room and say they're afraid of you they don't know what you're gonna do um we do have to protect them wow so they knew who you were right away or oh yeah yeah they knew who i was and so they they said they don't know what you're gonna do so which is interesting I mean I know I didn't carry any I don't have any weapons and anyways but yeah so I was pretty much everywhere the Iranian government went what if they went to the UN in Geneva I was there tapping on their shoulder like hey I'm here so I was uh used every government that had any relationship with Iran, like Germany, or to contact the

Iranian government and say, hey, why are you arrested? Why is this Christian in prison? So God really gave me a platform. Like, for example, in the United Nations, I got to talk about Jesus to the nations as it was being translated in every language. But God, you really use the platform for the gospel, but also to call out the persecution of Christians in Iran specifically. So... Did it have an... What effect did it have? Did it end persecution? Did they listen?

They shut down every church that still was open. So they actually started shutting down more churches, which was sad. But it seems like, especially at that time, they were more hesitant and arresting Christians and more willing to let them go. So there was a little bit of, no, we're the good guy we have, because Iran claims that they have religious freedom. But yeah, so there was a little bit of them trying to look good. But no, actually, during that time, some of the churches that had been open for a long time shut down. Some of the building churches, not the house churches. So it's kind of like China.

Iran has still maybe a few building churches that they approve. They're run by Armenians, not Persians. That means Armenians are considered Christian born. There's generation and generation of them being Christian. And so the Iranian government considers them Christian, but they're not allowed to let Muslims into the church or evangelize. So they're supposed to speak their own Armenian language. And they're not supposed to talk about certain things in their sermon,

like the resurrection of Christ. So everything's controlled. But those churches were still open. Some of them, the Iranian government shut down while Saeed was in prison. And you spoke in front of Obama and Donald Trump. Could you talk? Yeah, tell us about those experiences. Yeah, two very extreme reactions also from people. Because when I met with Trump, some people were so happy and but also angry. And then when I met with Obama, some people were very happy. But also there was people that were hungry. At that time, I didn't care which door I had to knock to get my husband out.

So it was like whoever gives me a seat to talk, I will talk. to get my husband out. So it was like, whoever gives me a seat to talk, I will talk. Trump was the first I met end of 2014, right? As we were entering 2015, I believe, if I remember correctly. So a year, I think before Obama, Obama actually flew to Boise in January of 2015. Yeah, Trump might've been actually end of 2013, if I remember correct. So somewhere. Actually, I got a call directly from Trump, because at that time, my story had gotten really, really big. And later, I realized I don't I'm not an internet person. But people that were watching the internet, it was like a subject that a lot of people were talking about all over the world. And so I realized at that time,

a lot of political people wanted to meet with me because it was such a subject. And also recently I went through and like, when Trump was running for president, all he had talking points, almost every time he would talk about either Said or having met with me or the president in Iran, it was part of his talking point when he was running. So he would bring it up quite often. And so he wanted to meet with me. I went to the Trump Tower.

I went to his wall of fame with his magazine covers. He always he took he takes you there and show that he's proud of it. So, yeah, I sat down with him and he criticized the Obama administration for not doing anything. And he said, if I run for president, I would get your husband out. He did give me give me a ten thousand dollar check. And when I try to cash it in here in Boise, they're like, no, that's not a check from Donald Trump. I was like, yes, it is. They're like, no, it's not. It took a while for them to. Yeah. So but yeah, so I had a meeting with him. He criticized Obama for not getting said out. And he promised that he would get said out and had probably about an hour

ish, maybe over an hour meeting with him and did some photos. And that was it. And then after that, he talked about it a lot that he'd met with me. He tweeted about it. He shared on his social media. He talked about on every, every interview he had, pretty much, he said, I just met with his wife, blah, blah. So yeah. And then 2015, heard obama was coming to boise and i reached out and um this you know they basically said yeah real quick real quick how do you reach out to obama like what does that look like like state department because i was already in contact with state department um because of science stuff once i had been put in prison, I immediately had a connection with the State Department that was following up his case.

So through them, I was like, oh, Obama's coming to Boise. Can I meet with him? And they said, yes, actually. He would love to meet with you. At that time, I wanted my lawyers, which was ACLJ. They said, no, only the kids. Yeah, it was surreal because, yeah, there's there was a few like even when I got out, I actually got a call directly from the White House that Obama wants to talk to you. I was like, what? Getting a call from the president is insane.

President is insane. But yeah, so I in 2015, I just reached out to my State Department contacts and sent a letter to him. And they said, yep. And he would meet with you. We met at BSU and in an office there. And and then he spoke at the BSU and left. But we had probably pretty good time with him, too, about say 15 20 minutes okay i thought i was just shaking his hand or saying something like i had a few minutes but it was an actual meeting in a room with his people i mean having met with trump and then obama like what's your do you have an opinion on them as people i mean what was that like i mean um um yeah at that time i was more in a conservative world my mindset i was very much supported and in a very much conservative republican world mindset but one thing I did notice with Trump I couldn't

talk Trump kind of overpowered everything I was like like I would say a few sentences but he would with Obama he was more of a listener and he talked a lot. Like I felt more comfortable like telling my story and actually feeling like emotional. Like I felt like I was I really didn't feel like I was talking to a president. I felt like I was talking to, you know, but with Trump, there was an air about him and he was like very aggressive talking and kind of just taking over. But with Obama, it was actually easier to talk to and just share my heart. And the kids talked to him. And so he was more personable, I guess, even though he was the president at that time.

He had a higher position than Trump at that time. Yeah. I mean, based on your description, and I'm trying to be neutral and apolitical, and I don't want to, you know, but I mean, it sounds like Trump kind of, maybe this is reading too much. I kind of used that meeting to make it like the kind of. It's definitely looking back. Yeah.

Looking back my situation all of a sudden became very political, which initially when I stepped into media, I was, I'd never really watched Hannity. I didn't know even my first interview who it was with. And so I didn't realize all of a sudden I was getting into a political world that I had no clue about. I actually spoke at CPAC where all the, like I was actually invited to speak at very political events that presidential candidates speak at. I did tours with Ted Cruz. He wanted me to endorse him and things like that. And so all of a sudden I met,

I had an interesting conversation with Ben Carson and all of them, like Chris Christie. I mean, every single one of them, I would say I'd met and they promised to get Said out of prison. So it became very political and it was very obvious that especially the more conservative Republican world was using this to bash Obama and kind of say, we're going to say, we're not going to let Iran walk all over us. We're going to like, you know, we're going to get our American hostages out once we become we become president. And that's what I thought would happen.

I, I honestly didn't think that Saeed or other Americans, there was a Marine there, there was a Washington Post reporter, there was a few of them. I didn't know they would actually get out during Obama's time. I thought maybe when a more conservative person became president, they were going to like get on Iran's case. And that's when Saeed was going to come out. But he did come out when Obama was still president in 2016. Oh, he did. Okay. 2006. So he was in prison for four years-ish. Okay. Yeah. Half of it, three and a half years, six months of it was in house arrest, but four years, yes. This episode is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. Okay, so I used to think that only people with serious mental health issues are the ones that need counseling,

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They've even got a special offer for our listeners. now. You can get 10% off your first month at faithfulcounseling.com forward slash T-I-T-R. Thanks again to Faithful Counseling for sponsoring this episode. All right, well, let's go to that season, next season of your life. So Saeed's out of prison. You guys, he came back to boise right or or what was that like yeah so before he came uh back to boise and this is where everything gets really complicated and um before he came back to boise about a year in uh before his prisons before he got out so towards the end of 2014 saeed got a hold of a smartphone inside of the prison, which now looking back, the Iranian government obviously, even though it was smuggled, obviously allowed it because how can you have Internet inside of a prison? I don't even have Internet in some areas in Idaho. So in a maximum security prison, in order to have Internet, the Iranian government obviously would have had to let it happen.

in order to have internet, the Iranian government obviously would have had to let it happen. So he started having a smartphone and there was just some really bad behavior that started coming out that really confused me. He had realized how famous this story had gotten. And I was invited to huge platforms, meeting with presidents, speaking at parliaments. And he was very upset that I was looking back now that I was gaining confidence because abusive narcissistic people, they don't, especially in an abusive marriage, they want to have control over a person. So they have to diminish them. So before I went to prison, I had no self-esteem. I just he would pick apart my looks, my thinking, my Christian theology, even he would twist scripture to have me submit to him.

And so I really didn't trust my own thinking or my own theology or my own anything when he went to prison. And my first interview when I finished the, I guess the chart, like people's responses was like crazy because everyone was like, wow, you were so well-spoken. You look so pretty. And I was like, for the first time I was hearing like positive words about myself and I was building confidence. And I guess the viewers really wanted me back on. That's why I kept getting invited. And so slowly the lies of my husband was being replaced by truth of God's word, actually who I am in God and how I'm worthy. And I'm his daughter. And, um, and he had gotten a phone right before he came out like a year and

he had realized that I was building confidence. So he was saying things like you're a whore, you are a Jezebel, you're trying to be the leader as a woman so I would say no no no because I didn't want that I said no I don't need to travel if it's really bothering you but then he would say well you have to travel you need to get me out I need you need to make my keep my story alive but he wanted me to still promote him but realize that I was nothing but I couldn't understand why he was being so mean from prison, because before his imprisonment, he had beat me nearly to death when I was pregnant with my daughter. There was a few physical altercations, physical abuse, but most of it was psychological

and emotional and very confusing and spiritual using scripture. And of course my middle Eastern culture of submission and then adding that the church's understanding of submission and, you know, um, just different things. And so he was using scripture to really have me submit to a very dark marriage, a very abusive marriage. And so, uh, towards the end of his imprisonment, he had a phone and he was actually, I realized he's still abusive. I had hoped he was not because it seemed like at the beginning of his imprisonment, he was changing. He was sorry. He would, family members that would

visit, he would say, I'm sorry, I mistreated Nagme. I mistreated you because he beat up my dad. He actually told my dad, I'm sorry. For the first time, this man was saying he was sorry. And there was a few letters that came out that showed he was broken. So I thought I was getting like a changed man. Whereas when he got the phone, I realized, no, he hasn't changed. And he actually has severe PTSD and paranoia. He thinks I'm stealing his fame. And so I realized my life was in danger. He really wanted to come after me for stealing his fame. But I was very confused. And Saeed was a hero. I didn't know what to do with it. And November of 2015, I finally told someone, I said, I'm really confused. My husband's in prison. I'm trying to get him out. I'm trying

to be the submissive wife. And he is being really mean to me. So I showed some of his Skype texts to a pastor. And all of this is documented on media and me. So I showed some of his Skype texts to a pastor. And all of this is documented on media and stuff. And the pastor has been interviewed and he's confirmed. And the pastor said, I'm actually, I'm not just a pastor. I'm a psychologist and you're an abused wife. And so he gave me the diagnosis, which just changed my world. It's kind of like knowing you have pain in your body and you take, I don't know, Advil.

But then realizing, oh, this pain is actually cancer. It's more serious than I thought it needs to be. There needs to be chemo and radiation, whatever. And so I realized this is a, this is not just the normal marriage issue. This is, this is a very complicated issue. So that's when I pulled back from media. I kind of went in a shell for a few years. I pulled back. I wrote an email to supporters, a few supporters, a few hundred, actually. I don't know how it was a very, it was an email, maybe it was a hundred, but there was a group of about a hundred people that had supported me, had done all the prayer vigils. In 2015, the last prayer vigil we did, over a thousand cities had joined.

Every state capital, there was a prayer gathering for Saeed on September 26, which is the date he was arrested, put in prison. And so, so many people helped coordinate that all over the world. We had like 50 or some countries that joined us in the prayer vigils. And so I had coordinated all of that by myself because my lawyers didn't really coordinate prayer vigils. And, and so I had coordinated all of that by myself because my lawyers didn't really coordinate prayer vigils. So I had, so I had a group of people that were kind of the core of the leadership of across the world. So I emailed them and I said, I've been told I'm an abused wife and blah, blah, please pray for Said, please pray for our marriage. And before I knew it, someone had leaked it to media and it was all over the media that Nagme claims abuse. And it was horrible. It was just pretty

much, yeah, it was, it was probably one of the most traumatic experiences of my life was not the abuse, but the way the church responded to it. I changed from being supported by hundreds of millions of Christians to stones thrown at me, accusations, you know, that maybe, you know, the first accusation came from one of my really, really good friends. I traveled with him often. I had become very close with him, Franklin Graham. And he was the first to throw the stone. And he said, you're probably cheating on him and which he confirmed in an interview with the washington post yes recently uh washington post released an article where they they actually asked franklin they said did you tell nagme if she

was cheating on site and he said yes and i would do it again why what i don't this is yeah i mean to say that well well we you know uh he his uh franklin and unfortunately a lot of religious leaders i realize belief is uh if a first of all they thought i was throwing side under the bus because i was with someone so i needed to kind of you know throw side under the bus so I could have a relationship with someone else, which is not true. I grew up in the purity movement. Said was my first kiss, firsthand, first everything. And to this day, it's been seven years since our divorce. I haven't dated anyone. You know, so that ridiculous accusation of me having cheated on Said, the first one was brought on by Franklin Graham. And and of course, his mindset kind of I realized over the months there was emails that were he sent me that's out there in the media, Washington Post, Julie Royce.

But he basically believes that a woman is being beat. It's because she's being sassy to her husband. If a woman's being cheated on, he is she's not giving him enough sex. So it's always on the woman. So that's the mentality of a lot of those religious leaders. And I became the bad guy all of a sudden. And those big names like Franklin, who had a lot of connections and basically told me, you know, don't let this go out. Basically, if any of this, you know, if you if you, uh, cover this up, you and say could both have an amazing ministry. Um, I was consistently told to cover up the abuse, say I was under a lot of stress, uh,

by my lawyers at ACLJ, they would say you're under a lot of stress. You didn't mean to say that. And I said, no, I'm finally seeing what I've been under. There's been not only a psychological, you know, all of that, but there's physical abuse too, like in my case and adultery, like all of it, porn addiction, adultery, anything you can think of. And which Said, when he came out of prison had actually confessed to Franklin that yes, he had cheated on me. And so with all of that still, so when it came out, it was, became very ugly. All of a sudden I went from a hero Christian wife, the support of all the Christian community, to stones being thrown at me and no support. Like literally like the leading person by the side of the road.

No one wanted to touch me. Simply because you were honest about your abusive husband and it interrupted their narrative or agenda. Yeah. Agenda to, uh, all this, well, it actually, God used it for my benefit because, uh, from our story, a lot of people were benefiting politically and also, uh, ministry wise. If, if our, if we would have decided would have come out, uh, there would have been a lot of, I, we actually actually signed a deal with, um um giving the rights of a movie to franklin graham and the billy graham association so there was a lot of things that our marriage being kept together with would benefit people and actually in a voice recording that i had with

franklin after saeed came out you can kind of see that see that um and my pastor was there and my lawyer was there you can kind of see that he was really upset that he kind of lost an investment in a story, you know. And so I didn't understand at that time, Franklin had become such a close friend to me. He would send his private jet. He'd flown me once on his private jet from, we had met up for lunch in New York and he said, Hey, you want to, we're about to dedicate my dad's statue in Washington, DC. Do you want to come be at the dedication with the governor and everything? I said, sure. So he flew me himself from New York to North Carolina for that. So there was, there was a really close friendship. So that really hurts when he rose up against me and basically tried to silence me. But at that time,

I knew what I knew, you know, and I'm thankful that I was called, I was accused and called even a liar. Then how, why did you fight for him? Just so much confusion. I'm thankful for that because that's what a lot of abused women get. They get called liars and they get, you know, they get attacked, you know, so um i'm thankful my story played out the way it did publicly because that's an example of how abused women are usually treated so gosh first of all that's yeah i mean i i'm very dramatic i think one thing is the abuse the other thing that i talk to a lot of christian women is the church's response to abuse. And one thing I realize is, like, you even know, you've touched a few subjects, and it's like so hard. There's so much trauma. So most people don't want to touch it. And by not touching it, the abuser wins. When

you don't talk about oppression and abuse, they win because they want confusion. So that everyone's like, okay, we're not going to touch this marriage. It's so confusing. It's so hard. So who wins? The oppressor wins because when there's indifference or silence, the oppressor actually wins because they have the power. So that's their goal. And so a lot of people I realize don't want to touch a marriage situation also because it's so confusing, but also they don't want to ruin the institution of marriage. They don't want to have another higher statistic of divorce.

So God really showed me his heart through that, that it was no different than the Pharisees trying to protect the institution of Sabbath in a way, in their own ways. Sometimes when, you know, and this is where my theology comes in my own journey, I realize if I'm somehow putting an institution, protecting a marriage, protecting a church, protecting an organization, or protecting Sabbath, whatever institution becomes more important than the person suffering, then my theology is wrong. Because it's never about the institution. It's always about the person. Jesus cares about the person's suffering, then my theology is wrong because it's never about the institution. It's always about the person. Jesus cares about the person. So if somehow my heart has grown cold and cruel because I care more about an institution, then there's something wrong with my theology.

And so, yeah, so I realized it's kind of like Sabbath. They thought they were following God. They were keeping all these rules, but people were wasting away. And the Bible doesn't talk that much about Jesus getting indignant, angry, but it does when it has to do with like the man with the withered hand where he heals on Sabbath. It usually actually uses the word anger. And, you know, he was angry and saddened by the hardens of heart. And so God really showed me through Sabbath. This is what's happening. A lot of religious leaders don't want to touch institution of marriage. They're willing to let women and children waste away. And at times men, because they don't want to touch that institution. It's almost like, no, no, we don't want to break that institution. Whereas God himself, you know, he cares more about the person than institution. So interesting enough, I didn't divorce. I feel bad for the woman who divorced because they even get more rocks thrown at them. For me, my abuser realized I was useless now because I was starting to have a voice. So he actually came out of prison, divorced me, and actually went on to be in a relationship with someone else. So anyways, I was so afraid of divorce, I actually didn't divorce at that time.

So anyways, I was so afraid of divorce. I actually didn't, didn't divorce at that time. Wow. And I mean, there's kind of a minor detail. Most people, unless you live in Boise, don't even realize that this is right around the time. I mean, you were, you've been at Calvary Chapel for a long time, right? And came out right around the same time that the founding pastor had a lengthy affair. And there was a lot of just stuff going on behind the scenes that came out.

Did that play? I mean, I'm surprised you're still a Christian. I mean, that's a lot to handle. It was hard because the founding pastor was like a dad to me and our church had grown. I was, I came to Calvary 99 when it was still in a tent. It was not very big. And so it exploded to, I don't know, five to 7,000 people at that time. The founding pastor was tent it was not very big and so it exploded to I don't know five to seven thousand people at that time the founding pastor was realized there was abusive behavior and adultery but about a year after Saeed got out so I was going through my divorce stuff and then I was actually in the middle of that tornado because the founding pastor called me I'm gonna kill myself

this is so so I was in the middle of like figuring out, do I side with him? Because there's a conversation between me and Franklin Graham where my pastor was there. And you can see it's out there in the media. I think Washington Post has it, Julie Royce, where you can see my pastor defended me. Like he's basically sitting across from Franklin saying, sit down. I don't care if you're Franklin Graham. across from Franklin saying, sit down. I don't care if you're Franklin Graham. She like, he just talks like he defended me. He said, she is, she I've known her for 20 years. She is a strong Christian. Like we've had problems with Said, but we thought he was going to change in prison. And then Franklin says, why didn't you tell me? Which my pastor's like, calm down. He was in prison. We thought he was changing, but he basically defended my character. So here, my pastor didn't care. He was standing up to Franklin Graham. No one wanted to stand up to him.

There was a few pastors like his side denominations, superintendent of Assemblies of God. He was going to stand up to Franklin and say he actually wrote a letter. Dr. Wood, who recently passed away of cancer, he started standing up to Franklin and saying, no, we know Said has had these issues. We know it from our denomination, Assemblies of God, that this man has had these issues. But anyone who tried to stand up for me, they got shut down. Basically, they were being told that you're going to damage the cause of Christ. If you let Nagmeh continue in exposing this, you're damaging cause of Christ. But my pastor didn't shut down.

My pastor defended, and then his stuff came out and I had to choose between loyalty between my pastor and God, because there was no repentance. I didn't see fruit of repentance. I saw cover up. And so that was heartbreaking that I ended up breaking away from that pastor as well, because I didn't see true repentance. Like I didn't see any repentance. He was actually lying about stuff that later I found out. And you mentioned that this is common among women who have been abused, this kind of scenario happening on a much less national scale with all the publicity, but have you gotten a lot of women reach out? Like,

have you been able to minister to women who have gone through similar situations? And is this type of behavior and cover up and disbelief in women? I mean, we all know it's, I'm stating the obvious, it's a widespread problem. You've been right in the middle of that. Yeah. Have you seen any progress in the conversation as a result of what you've been through? Yeah. A lot of women reaching out. I

think a lot of churches maybe being more cautious, but it's normal for churches to want to cover up, whether it's a pastor's sin or the husband or whoever, for the sake of the marriage or for the sake of the church or the great ministry that they're doing. And they really use every power. They have to shut down the woman. Sometimes it's the man. And so that's normal. It's unfortunately normal. I hope that changes. I hope it starts with leaders that have really mishandled this, like Franklin, and they repent. Because it's heartbreaking for me because I think Jesus is so different from the religion I came from, Islam. There's such a high honor for women, such high value for women and for women, Christian women to be in a church or a marriage that's pretty much they're treated the same way.

They're told pretty much it's so interesting. It's so much similar when it becomes legalistic and religious, similar that they are the ones that have to cover up that it's their fault. If their husband cheats on them, that it's okay. If they get beat their beings, it's almost like the oppression Islam has over women. And I know, I know that's not Christ and I would love to see, um, us represent Christ well to the world, uh, in the way we treat women. And I don't, unfortunately, I'm not seeing that as much in the Christian church as well. And I'm not seeing women have as much of a voice, which for me, you know, we've talked about, I still teach the underground church in Iran. I have tried not to because I've struggled with, I should not be

teaching men. I've tried to hand it over to different organizations. I actually contacted the Southern Baptist a few years ago and said, hey, you guys want these churches? Like I should not, I don't want to be teaching them. But somehow God has kept me involved in leading in the Middle East and by men who don't regard have high value for women calling me their leader, you know, even at times pastor. Personally, I don't take on titles because in my theology where I'm at right now, I'm always growing. I kind of look at Deborah, where she was a leader, but she didn't try to be a leader. So she kind of wanted the man to lead like, hey, are you sure? But God did use her. So in my theology is if it's stumbling people to know

that I'm leading in any way, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm not going to try to take a leadership position. Like Jesus said, take the last seat. You know, I don't try to, and I think leadership in any way is a very hard work. It's cleaning sheep and taking care of yucky stuff and laboring. It's not like this high glamorous position anyways. But yeah, so I don't know why God has me in this place where I am kind of leading. And most, if you look at any videos about the revival in Iran, it's being led by women. Like I said, there's so many stories within your trajectory. But this, I mean, in spite of, you know, we can camp out on so many different things, meeting presidents and going through, you know, what you've gone through. But now there's this new season where there's all these women leading this massively growing house church movement in a culture that doesn't,

that doesn't make any sense. No, it does not make any sense. What, how God would use women in a culture that is so anti-woman, definitely more so than here. I mean, we've grown so much as a culture here in the West, in the US, but Middle East, where women are literally treated like second class citizens for 1400 years, they're taught women are dumb. They are your property, hundred years they're taught women are dumb they are your property this and so literally women are so disregarded in society they can't talk they can't look at a man they have to cover up they can't have any high position over a man for for the male in that society to say you you're my

pastor you're my leader is mind-boggling to me that there are even, like there's no theological discussions in the Middle East even over that. It's just accepted that these women are leading them. And I'm just very surprised by this myself, having grown up here in the US and having had been involved with discussions, you know, when I was advocating for SAIT, definitely at Calvary Chapels and Southern Baptist, I would always have a more interview style when I was at their

churches and I didn't know why. And then later I was like, oh, they don't want the woman preaching. They'd rather interview you. So later I realized, oh, there's that thing where they don't want to give you the pulpit. They kind of want to do more interview style where you're not necessarily teaching over men. But in the Middle East, it's not even like an argument they have. They fully accepted women leaders and the women are the ones that are leading the house churches. So the house church movement in early 2000s, you were a part of that. Has it always been led by the my majority women leaders or is that more of a recent shift in the house church movement there um i think initially when i was part of it or the pastors that were martyred uh they were men okay i i think i've seen more of a

shift probably to uh 2010s on is where i've seen more of a shift where uh the woman as the churches have grown rapidly the women have become more of the leaders but why is that why is it are the men like all i mean are they in prison and persecuted so much that they're or why aren't there more male leaders well the they both men and women are now uh tend to get arrested. It used to be just the men. But as women have been leading the house churches, they're also as equally arrested, probably not as many killed. It's usually the higher death, like the death penalty or martyrdom is towards the men than the woman. It's less. But I don't know. I think there's a lot of men that are working and also there's not a, to be honest, there hasn't been a lot of healthy male leadership where they that's it's, we've had a lot of leaders also in the house church movement where the men has cheated and messed up and different things where,

um, you know, we don't see that as much as with the woman. I was actually discussing this with a friend recently saying I was doing a Bible study with my kids about the book of judges and you have all these judges with like big mess ups and then you have Deborah and she's squeaky clean. Nothing, but I don't know why, but yeah, with, with the men, there's squeaky clean. Nothing. But I don't know why. But yeah, with the men, there's been issues. There's also the pornography issue that's become big in that area as well.

And so different things. But yeah. So has it, I mean, and I know, you know, you're wrestling with your theology on this question and stuff. Has this caused you to go back and look at scripture maybe differently? Or is this a pressing theological question in your mind? Like, what should you be leading? Is this totally fine? What does scripture say about it? And yeah. I feel like I'm still processing it. I do think God doesn't just, you know, He had,

where I'm at right now is he had first born, but then he would switch it up and he would have second born. And so we, we want to put God in a box of like, there always has to be male leaders, but God has always switched things up. Um, so for me, I think God does switch things up once in a while, but for the person, whether it's a man or a woman to be in that place of leadership, they shouldn't be craving it or want like deborah i would rather have a uh mindset like deborah where it's like hey you want to lead like it shouldn't be a position we're fighting for it should be more of a humble position of you know um and and also taking the last seat and things that's where i'm at myself is i'm not

going to fight for a platform as a woman. If God gives me like he did with the nations and the United, if he wants to give a platform, he will give a platform. He doesn't need churches to do that. But I'm not going to fight for a position or a platform. I'm going to let God kind of do that. But I do believe he does use women as well in leadership positions. But I don't think whether you're a man or a woman, you should fight for that. I think having more of a humble position like Deborah, like, Hey, you want to take the lead? You get the, you'll get the glory. Like, you know, it's okay if I don't get noticed, you know? So I think in general,

whoever you are as a man or woman to lead, you should have that position of, hey, I shouldn't really crave that place of power. It really isn't in Christianity, a place of power. It's a place of servanthood and slavery. As Paul says, we're like the scum of the earth, and it's really not a position to fight over. So that's where I'm at. I do think we're so, we try to put God in a place of like, he only uses men in leadership and we see God always switches things up according to his will and purpose and to have grace for other theologies too. I know there's probably a lot of leaders or listeners that are even frustrated that we're even debating whether, uh, you or all these other women should lead men. And if I, you know,

I think even some complementarians who would say biblically, the pattern is male only elders. The ones I talked to say, even within that framework, God could do surprising things to make exceptions to that rule. So I could even see some complementarians saying, no, given the situation, women are leading, they should be leading. But for people that don't need, you know, that are convinced exegetically, you know, biblically that women can fully lead men and teach men, it's got to be frustrating to hear your story and even sense in any, even hesitation or voice, because you have all the biblical ingredients of being a leader. You have the resilience, you have the, I mean, goodness, the track record of what you have experienced.

I mean, both the persecution, going through this abusive situation and multiple layers and layers and layers of things and still be pushing forward and, and, and furthering God's kingdom. It's like, what else are we looking for in a leader? I mean, goodness, I think most male leaders in America, especially should be coming to you and sitting at your feet and saying, okay, you, you teach me what it is to be a humble leader, having gone through everything that you have gone through. So I don't know. I can imagine a lot of listeners are like, why are we even hesitating with this?

But I so appreciate you. I mean, you still want to follow what Scripture says. And I know we're kind of sorting through what it does say. Yeah, ultimately, I think to be a good leader, even woman leading woman, whatever the theology is, you have to be in a humble position. The moment there's pride and trying to fight for a right hand of Jesus, left hand of Jesus, that it's over.

So I think any leader, to be a leader, we have to follow. And I think that following the example of Jesus, I think that's where we can show the world we're different. The world uses place of power to rule over people and control and manipulate. And when we can, whether in our marriage or whether whoever we're leading, and, you know, as, you know, men to get the example from Jesus of humility and saying, yeah, I could have come and ruled the world, but I came as a servant.

I came and gave my life. And if we can do that well in our marriages and in our churches, then I don't think there's this, there's this conflict of, I think God will raise up whoever he wants to raise up. Sometimes they're Deborah's. And for me, I don't want to fight for a position or a platform. I think God can do that in his own way. And I would rather take a mindset of humility before God. And just kind of, I imagine myself saying, whatever crumb you want to give me, God, I'll take it. Like, I don't need to have this huge platform. I don't, like whatever you give me. And I think that's, what's attractive to God is having that place of humility of not trying to further yourself or your cause or your, and just saying, I'll take whatever you give me.

I'm okay with that. I don't need to have a platform. I don't need to be called a leader. I can do a lot of things quietly. If it hurts the body of Christ to know what I'm doing, if it's going to be eating meat, that's going to cause someone to stumble, they struggle with a woman leading, then I'm not going to broadcast what I do. But I am in a position where I am leading many in the Middle East. I've tried to not to do that because I have struggled with that theology. I've tried to hand it over to other people. But that's where God has me. I know this is where God has me because I've tried to get rid of it so many times.

And so I've accepted it. But yeah. So describe your current season right now. What does the next, say, five years in your life look like? Do you feel like you're in a transition period? Or are you really just pushing into helping the house church in Iran? Well, my dad was a businessman probably a few years ago. I could have given you a five-year, 10-year plan. He always had us thinking about that. But now I'm actually in a season of day

by day. I don't know if that makes sense to a lot of people. There's been so many twists and turns. I would have thought I am going to be a missionary in Iran for the rest of my life. And then that blew up and I'm going to be advocating for the persecuted church. And then it's been the abuse and then it's been talking about the cover up of abuse. So and there's so many passions I have with the persecuted church, with abuse, with refugees, which is another passion of mine. I don't know where God is leading and I'm okay with that. I do have a passion at this point for those people that are minimized. I would say one of my greatest passion is in the non-believing world, I guess, refugees and foreigners and the

way people are scared of them and treating them. And as Christians, the way we can treat them well and really share the gospel. And then in terms of the abuse world, really passionate about how the church handles abuse to not re-traumatize those who've been oppressed and to keep talking about it because it's such a messy subject. And our first reaction is to stand back and say, I'm not going to touch it, which the abuser and the oppressor wins when we do that. So I have a book that's coming out in September that kind of probably goes through all of my journey. probably goes through all of my journey, but my passion is to address abuse, you know, in the church, because I want us as a church to do well in society. I, as an example to others, but also

to the people that have become believers to say, we're different. Jesus honors a woman, Jesus. I mean, it's, I am every single time I read about Jesus interaction with women being from the Middle East, I'm still shocked. Two thousand years later, it's still revolutionary the way he treated women. Two thousand years later, still you do what Jesus did in my country. It's shocking the way he honored women, the way he valued women, the way he shared deep thoughts and revelations of himself to women. And I hope that the church does well in this area because I do believe it will attract a lot of people to the church evangelism and it will bring a lot of healing to people that have been just oppressed and minimized and shut down because of different reasons, but especially the woman, which is, so that's my passion is,

is that as a church we would do better and whether we're treating abuse or whether we're treating the, um, those who are not considered, you know, uh, like for me, refugees right now are not very popular because there's a lot of thoughts on that of, you know, what the Bible really cares about. I mean, what do you see in the Old Testament, New Testament, foreigners, widows and orphans? Like those are the people that are so close to the heart of God that society tends to sometimes just disregard and oppress and just treat them as lesser. So where can people find you? You do a lot of speaking just so people know so um there might be some people that might be reaching out to

you wanted you to come and uh share your story and talk about all the things you're passionate about this so you you're the um executive director of how do you uh terrier terrio anisa it's an Executive Director of Haris Tahrir Al-Nisa. It's an Arabic word. Tahrir is freedom. Al-Nisa is woman. So I co-founded this with my friend, Miriam Ibrahim, who does speak Arabic. I don't speak Arabic. I speak Farsi.

But it's an Arabic word that actually attracts a lot of Muslim women to us because it's Arabic means freedom for women and our ministry does not accept donations you go in there and try to don't can't no you cannot donate I just we just don't accept donations but we do uh help women coming out of persecution religious freedom stuff and we also help women with abuse so what i don't understand why don't i mean someone said i want to help fund this ministry like you're like no no we don't accept the nation it's a different that's a different subject but yeah but we do you can connect with us through that website or um i have a social media nagme panahi on i I'm on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and all of that. I'll put all the links in the show notes. So if somebody wants to get ahold of you, they can go click on some of those links.

Nagme, this is an amazing conversation. Goodness, God's had you on a journey. And I'm excited for the next season in your life, what God's going to do with you. So I'm sure we go to the same church and hang out with the same friends and everything. So I'm sure I'll see you sometime soon. So thank you for your faithfulness, resilience, and just modeling so many aspects of the gospel in your story. It's truly amazing. Thank you. I appreciate you and everything you do. I'm learning so much from you. I really want not to have the knee-jerk reaction to abuse and being told to be quiet about it and learn I'm really learning from your dialogues of how to dialogue people with

people that would think differently than me might be at different extreme ends and I've really grown from and I've healed a great deal from watching your interviews with people. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.