Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1089: The Future of the Church from a Micro-Church Perspective: Kevin Kim

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

Kevin Kim is the executive director of Crazy Love Ministries and the CEO of Basil Technologies, a faith-based technology nonprofit. He is an elder of We Are Church, a network of simple churches in the Bay Area. He is a graduate of the University of Virginia and received his Masters of Divinity from Biblical Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. He lives in Northern California with his wife and 3 children. This episode is a recording of Kevin's killer talk at this year's "Exiles in Babylon" conference.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is sort of Kevin Kim. I mean, it is Kevin Kim. I say sort of because what you're going to listen to is the talk that Kevin gave at this last year's Exiles in Babylon conference. Oh my word, where do I start? So Kevin's talk was part of a session on the future of the church where I had various perspectives on how we should think through the future of the church. And Kevin was coming to bring a perspective of someone who is part of a fairly radical, maybe a radical reorientation of our ecclesiology. He's kind of the co-founder of the We Are Church movement, started by Francis Chan and Kevin Kim. So he's part of kind of a,

they don't like the term house church, but kind of a house churchy kind of movement. So that's what he was coming to bring to the conference. And I've known Kevin for a long time. He's been a good friend and just a wonderful Christian leader. I was expecting his talk to be good. I wasn't expecting it to maybe blow the roof off like it did. So anyway, I wanted you to hear this talk. It's absolutely incredible. So Kevin is the executive director of Crazy Love Ministries and the CEO of Basel Technologies, a faith-based technology nonprofit. He's also an elder of the We Are Church movement, a network of simple churches.

That's what it is. Simple churches, not house churches, simple churches in the Bay Area. He's a graduate of University of Virginia and received his MDiv from a biblical theological seminary in Philadelphia. He and his wife and three kids live in Northern California. So please, I'm so excited. Please welcome to the show, the one and only Kevin Kim. It is an honor to be here tonight. I'm not just saying that to warm you up, but it's true. It's a big honor because number one, I'm a big fan of Preston and Chris's ministry. And I'm so thankful for everything that they do for the body.

And so, you know, I want to support them and serve them, you know, in whatever way that I can. The second reason why it's such an honor is because I'm not supposed to be here. And I'm definitely not that qualified to be speaking on this stage. I'm not supposed to tell you that because I'm a speaker and you guys paid money. But because Matt and Michelle did so well, I don't feel that bad. Here's why I say that. I run a ministry called Crazy Love. And then I do technology product development on the side, and that's my sweet spot. That's my lane. That's my jam. I don't do conferences. I don't write books. I don't do podcasts. In fact, my role at Crazy Love actually is to help mediate speaking 88 speaking requests that come in for Francis. And so when Preston emailed about Exiles 2023, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to get him into the lineup, you know, you know,

and he wanted to be here, but he had booked a speaking engagement in South Africa, preaching the gospel. And I told him, I know, I was like, that's a terrible reason to miss Preston's conference. But be that as it may, he can't be here. And so Preston's like, hey, man, Francis can't do it. Can you do it? I was like, stop playing, Preston. You know, don't mess around. We need to get our heads together and find you a real speaker. Chop, chop.

And then he's like, I know, but all the real speakers are booked. You got to pretend to be a real speaker. I was like, fine, pencil me in, you know, because he's really persuasive with his smoldering good looks. You know, it's hard to say no. So then I tell Preston, I'm like, what do you want me to talk about? I can do nonprofits. I can do innovation. I can do product development. I can do UX and UI design.

I can do UX and UI design. And then Preston says, I need you to give a talk on the future of the church. He said it just like that. He was like, the future of the church. Sure, Preston. Absolutely. That's not pretentious at all. And did you want me to do that before or after my breakout session on cosmic humility?

Because, you know, I'm just trying to think through the flow here, Preston. And I'll be with Matt. I'll be signing Bibles up in the foyer, you know? So look, look, look, look. Prepare thyself for the best 20 minutes of your life as I unfold

and I unpack the definitive and authoritative teaching, nay, oracle on the future of the church. Yeah. Stop clapping. That's not what I'm going to do, obviously. Obviously. All right. So let me tell you what I'm going to do. Actually, let me tell you two more things that I don't want to do, okay? So first thing I don't want to do, besides give this talk, right? The first thing I don't want to

do, I want to be very careful not to contribute to the unhelpful dynamic in a lot of Christian conferences, not exile, but there are some out there, but the unhelpful dynamic of perpetuating what French theologian Jacques Allul refers to as the ministry of technique. The ministry of technique. The ministry of technique is pernicious. It is harmful to the life of the church. And it says this. It says the reason why you're not experiencing massive breakthrough in church growth, the reason why you're not seeing the evangelism or the miracles or the answered prayers is because you just don't have the right

methods. You don't have the right forms and the models. You don't have the right incantation of words. But if you did it like this and you said it like this and you set it up like this, well, watch out, buddy boy. You're not going to be able to handle the ministry success coming your way. And that is not just wrong. Ask any ministry practitioner and it doesn't work. There's no three-step. That's not just wrong, but it's arrogant and evil to think that we can replicate and manipulate the move of God on demand. Things move when God says so. And Lord, help us. Lord, have mercy on us if we are pushing and polluting the church with this snake oil just to sell something.

Now, I'm not saying there's not wisdom to be had or helpful things to be taught and learned. Books are great. I learned a lot this morning. I've never switched from complimentary to egalitarian so much in one hour. I just want to be very, very clear with you. I just want to be very, very clear with you. There's no secret sauce to be discovered here. There's no innovation hack. There's no technique to employ for ministry. If you want the spoiler on the future of the church, then it is what has always has been. Disciples of Jesus who are constant and faithful and dependent in prayer, devoted and steeped in the word of God, completely surrendered to a life of obedience to the lordship of Christ,

given over to the mission of God, serving and loving the poor, and joyfully accepting suffering and sacrifice for the name of Christ. It ain't rocket science. You know what I'm saying? The second thing I don't want to do, and this comes from years and years of doing trainings in San Francisco with church leaders and church planters who come to San Francisco to check out what we're doing, I want to be very careful not to contribute to an arrogant, critical posture of conveying these people over here, this model, this tradition, they're doing it wrong.

And we're over here, and usually the presenters in that camp, we're over here doing it right. And things get framed up like that because it gets clicks and views and signups, but I hate it. And the reason why I hate it is because so many of my friends are faithfully serving in various traditions and models. They are showing up to work every day, day in and day out, and they are in the grind of ministry, giving their best, crushing it. And when something comes out like Francis Chan versus the megachurch, you know, and we didn't do that, by the way, you know, it was a talk, for those of you guys who don't know, it was a talk that Francis gave at Facebook on like something completely different,

faith and work. And, you know, someone asked him about what he was up to, and they just took this little clip and they titled it, Why Francis Chan Left the Mega Church. But when it gets framed up like that, it just causes discouragement and division and disunity in the body. And God hates that. He hates that. And we've repented publicly because I think in the early years of our trainings, in our zeal and excitement, I do think we exuded this air of the old way is wrong and the new way is right. And I just want to publicly say

to you guys, if you've come to any of our stuff, if you listen to any of our stuff at Crazy Love or We Are Church, and we have arrogantly portrayed ourselves as better than we are or wiser than we are, man, I just want to apologize. And I repent. And I want to say, if you're in the trenches and you're faithfully ministering to the flock, you're boldly preaching the gospel of Jesus, you're teaching the word of God, you're giving your life to the mission of God, I don't care if you're a mega church, a house church, a storefront church in the inner city. I'm a fan. I'm a fan, and I am cheering you on. All right, so with that said, let me share four challenges that I think confront the modern evangelical church in the U.S., and let me say that whatever model or tradition you're in,

you have to take this into account in your philosophy of ministry. I'm going to list them, and I'm not going to talk about all of them for the sake of time, but I'm going to talk about one, and then maybe if the others are interesting, you know, we can talk about it on the couch session, You know, we can talk about it on the couch session or at my Bible signing that Preston set up. There are many challenges for the church today. And these aren't the only four or even the top four, but these are four significant challenges that anyone leading the church needs to pay attention to. The problem of discipleship and the chronic latency of dormant, inactive believers. The problem of Christian consumerism

and the commodification of the Christian faith, which leads to a self-centered and truncated view of Christianity and the church. The problem of corporate idolatry and the church's adulterous relationship with power and the world's power structures. need in our time for gospel-informed, gospel-shaped courage, faithfulness, wisdom, compassion, and resilience in an increasingly complex and hostile world towards Christianity. And like I said, it's not the only four or the biggest four, but these are big ones, and we need to pay attention to them. And, you know, like, I'm like looking at your faces.

They're pretty obvious, right? So I don't need to explain them because I feel like I'd be preaching to the choir. So let me just share a few minutes on how our church at We Are Church is attempting to address these problems. Actually, one specifically, and it's the problem of discipleship. When we started We Are Church 10 years ago, and I know, I hate the name too. We all hate the name, but we all suck at branding, so it is what it is. We had to file the paperwork, yeah? But when we started We Are Church 10 years ago, we front-ended three design constraints before we even started. We said in our model, no paid pastors, no buildings,

a hundred percent of our tithes and offerings will go out to local global missions. And we got some backlash from that, you know, because there are people that were writing in and they're saying, hey, Francis Chan thinks it's wrong to pay pastors. Francis Chan thinks you're selling out if you have a building. Francis Chan thinks a fog machine is the first sign of apostasy. So I want to tell you guys, put your hearts at ease. Not true. Not true. I just want to set the record straight. And I want to say it's biblical and right to pay your pastors. And if you're with them today, give them a raise. If you have a building, what a blessing.

I just hope you paid it off before COVID. Too soon? Sorry. And if you own and operate a fog machine, good for you. I'd love to borrow it sometime. We didn't do the no pay pastor, no building thing because we thought it was wrong or unbiblical. And we didn't do it for financial reasons as well. A lot of people think that we did it to take money off the table. That if there was ever a time for us to preach a message or make a decision where 80% of our congregation would walk, we'd do it in a heartbeat. That was a factor, but it wasn't the main reason. A lot of other people thought it was to give away

more money to missions. Average church gives three to five percent to global missions, and this was a way to give more. That was a factor, not the main reason. The main reason why we did that was to create a forcing function for discipleship, to create a forcing function for discipleship. Because the idea was, still is, if we're going to multiply churches and plant new churches, which was our intention all along, and plant new churches, which was our intention all along. We prevented the option for us to hire someone to do that job.

Now, you may ask, why in the world would you do that? You smoking crack, why would you handcuff yourself and prevent that option? handcuff yourself and prevent that option. Well, if you want to plant new churches and you're not going to hire anyone, what do you do? You have to learn how to get really, really good at taking people from the marketplace and training them to be as effective spiritual leaders of healthy biblical churches of 10 to 15 people. And then you have to create the necessary resources and infrastructure to support these simple churches led by lay ministers. You know, I have a business mentor named Gary Hamill

who does innovation consulting for some of the biggest companies in the world. He works with Tim Cook at Apple, Michael Dell. He helps these innovative companies be more innovative. And he's a believer. And he said this to me once, just as a businessman, as a churchgoer, as an outside observer of church ministry. You know, he, cause he's been around the block. He's seen some stuff now, right? This is what he said. He said, I have never seen more untapped,

latent, wasted potential than what's sitting in every pew in every church every week in America. I have never seen more untapped, latent, wasted potential than what's sitting in every few, in every church, every week in America. Right? Burn notice, right? But I think he's right though. I think he's right. Because if you think about who we are in Christ, what we have in Christ, what is possible for every believer through faith in Christ. I mean, we are Holy Spirit filled new creations walking in resurrection power with the God of the universe as our leader. And you take that reality of who we are as Christians, and then you just look through the pews in America and see what's going on.

He might be right. He might be right. I believe that the greatest potential weapon for the kingdom is simultaneously the greatest strategy for the enemy. Latent, inert, inactive Christians who are saved, who are called into good works, who are filled with the spirit of God, but who are comfortably sitting on the bench. And that's a tragedy that should drive us nuts. It should drive us nuts. We cannot be okay with that. Given the need for people to hear the gospel, 3.2 billion people will live and die without hearing the good news of Jesus. That is a tragedy. But you know what's a bigger tragedy than the need? He died for us. He died for us to reconcile us to God and make us ministers of reconciliation. And we've been invited, broken, sinful, rebellious us. We have been invited in to the Father's work. We've been given this gift, this opportunity to walk with him in faith on this adventure. And we got this life, one life.

There's no rewind, there's no redo. We got one lifetime to give it all to him as a worship offering. And we're sleeping through it. We cannot be okay with that. So the name of our game is greater activation of the body of Christ and the mission of God. I think that's the future. Ministry through the people, not the professionals. Now, I want you to think about this. I'm about to throw a lot of numbers at you. Well, I got like 30 seconds, so I might not throw that many numbers at you. But you know, like, Matt and Michelle went like an hour over, right? So I got a little time.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. All right, let me throw some numbers at you, all right? 330 million people live here in the United States. 210 million people say, I'm a Christian. 120 million people, religiously unaffiliated. There are roughly 330,000 churches in America today. Average church size is 186. Median church size is 75. 117 million people say they attend church on a regular basis, which means we got 93 million people who say, I'm a Christian, but are not active in their local body. These are some staggering numbers. About 4,000 churches get planted every year in America. numbers. About 4,000 churches get planted every year in America. About 3,700 churches shut down. That's a net 300. And I don't know if that sounds good to you or not, but reports from Pew and Lifeway and other organizations that track church planting say we need to be at plus 3,700 churches, not plus 300, plus 3,700 new churches

just to keep up with population growth in the US, let alone the growing number of people who say they have no religious belief. Right now we're plus 300. We need to be at plus 3,700 at least. That is not 10% growth. That is not 25% growth. That is not even 50% growth. Ask any

person that's a business person how hard it is to grow business 50% year over year. It is stinking impossible. Google and Apple don't do that. Who's good at math? You guys know what kind of growth that we need? We need 1,333% growth in church planting just to keep up with the population and not lose ground. Every year, 4,000 to 5,000 people in the United States say, I'm going to go out to plant a church. Amen. God bless them.

We got to support them. But that is not enough. That is not enough. That is not nearly enough. So the question is, could we create a framework to incubate and birth new churches from the pool of 117 million people who are sitting in the pews? And could we address the discipleship problem of underutilized believers and the church planting problem at the same time? I don't know, but we're trying to find out, you know?

So we're trying to incubate and birth these healthy, strong, resilient biblical churches from amongst the people. Oh, my time is really up. So I can kill it now. I can close with my final two thoughts, but they're good. Kill it, kill it. Oh, oh, I misread you, you know, like didn't get the social cue. All right.

I want to close with two thoughts that have shaped my thinking about the church. In the last 10 years since we started, we are church. The first comes from Jack Dorsey, who's the founder of Twitter. And I know it's a sin to have my ecclesiology shaped by Twitter. But I'm a techie, so it is what it is, right? In an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016, Jack Dorsey said, When I created Twitter, I wanted to create utility, not product. Product is static.

Product is a toaster oven. A toaster oven will only toast bread. But utility, electricity, that's dynamic. You can power up and do all sorts of things with electricity. And I thought, what if the church had that quality to it? That it didn't have this static monolithic nature that was landlocked to a building address where one would go to receive spiritual services,

but instead it operated like electricity. It was underneath the people. It was powering them up for the unique and creative ministry that they were born and designed for. And I think that's a picture of the purpose of church leadership in Ephesians 4. That's what Matt Chandler was talking about, right? That he gave the apostles and the prophets and evangelists not to do the work of the ministry, but to equip the people for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up.

That is a picture of church leadership as platform, as utility. It looks more like an operating system than it does a singular product. Looks more like electricity than a toaster oven. The second thought comes from the underground house church in China. When Francis went back and he was talking to all these underground house church leaders, he told this to our staff 10 years ago. I never forgot it. It has indelibly shaped me. The house church leaders told him

the most influential people for the gospel in China are the ones you never heard of. The most influential people for the gospel in China are the ones you never heard of because they can't be overt. They cannot exercise their gifting in seen ways or they're going to get rolled up by the government. So they had to master the art of invisible leadership. And what a beautiful and fascinating concept. And what could happen if the strongest spiritual leaders in America were invisible? That they were unseen, unknown, nameless and faceless.

And what if they express their gifts, not so much through themselves, but through others to activate them into greater ministry? And what could happen if the 117 million people got out of the pews and into the game? I think that is an exciting vision for the future of the church. Thank you. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.