Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1095: A Raw Conversation with Christian Rapper nobigdyl.

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

nobigdyl. (born Dylan Philips) is an artist from Middle Tennesee and part of the "indie tribe" collective. Personally, he's one of my favorite musicians. Learn more about dyl from his website: https://www.dyllie.com/about In this conversation, we talk about the Christian hip hop industry, his decision to go independent, the pros and cons of "making it" in the music scene, and we walk through several of my favorite songs of his: "One Way," "What a Day," "Lighter Fluid," and "Willy." Check out the upcoming "SmokeFest23!" in Nashville, TN August 18-19 https://indietribe.us

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. So every now and then I get to fanboy over somebody that I have mad respect for and that is the case in this podcast episode. I have on the show an artist known as No Big Deal. And he has quickly become one of my favorite artists. He's a household name in our house. All my kids love his music. And they actually turned me on to his music and I can't stop listening to it. So I was so stoked when I reached out to him and he said he would be willing to be on the podcast. We had a wonderful time talking about his journey

in music and in the faith. We talked a lot about producing music, the kind of inspiration that goes into it. And then we do listen to several of his songs, my top favorite songs from him. And we talked through some of the lyrics and the story behind it. So I do want to give a shout out to a festival

that he's putting on, Smokefest 23, August 18th through 19th in Nashville, Tennessee. As I say at the end of the podcast, I'm going to try to make it out there, but we'll see if I can make it. But really looking forward to that festival. I think it's going to be awesome. And if you're in the Nashville area or even not in the Nashville area, I would encourage you to check it out.

So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, no big deal. I don't need some kind of words. I have heard everyone I know. I'm the worst. Flying birds really kind of covers here to go. Cause I don't know what's next. When I die, will I fly?

Will I love it? Will I love it? Will I pay the price? All right. I am here with Dill. I got permission to call him Dill. So just in case people are wondering. Dude, thanks so much for coming on Theology in Raw.

I've been looking forward to this for a while. I tried to get some of my family members down here to say hi to you, and they're too embarrassed. So, yeah. Yeah, man. I'm excited. Thanks for having me. I mean, you're an accomplished Christian rapper. Is that the right phrase?

By the way, I might use some phrases that are kind of like Gen X white boy, like stupid things, whatever. So please feel free to correct me if I say something or, you know, um, if you are a Christian, who's an accomplished musician, who is a rapper, is that how I should describe you? Yeah. I, I, you know, any of it works for me. I don't have any problems with somebody calling me a Christian rapper. I'm a Christian who is a rapper, a rapper. It's all correct to me. You know what I mean? So I think people have different entry points with my music and that kind of decides what term they choose to use. But I don't have, I don't take any offense to any of it. I've seen people kind of frown upon the phrase Christian rapper. And I, if it were me, that probably would be my,

like, am I a Christian writer? I guess, I guess that's Christian books, but I also like the, I don't know that sometimes it can have a certain genre, almost create a certain genre that I'm not trying to create myself. Like I'm a Christian who hopefully is a writer as a piece of art, as a work of ministry. And I happen to write on Christian topics. So I guess I'm a Christian writer, but does it have a stigma in the industry to say Christian rapper? Yeah. I definitely know a lot of people feel that kind of tension of like, well, if I label myself or people label me as a Christian rapper, then there's all this baggage that comes with it. You know, there's a big, you know, it could be corny or, you know, even it's judgmental. It's a money grab. It's, you know, there's a lot of baggage that could come with it. I'm just not that worried

about it because for me, it's just like the music first and the art first so i'm not i don't care what people call me like they can call me any of it they can think whatever about you know the boxes but as long as they listen to the song you know i'm just focused on getting them the music i don't feel and i also think that it's better now than it has been because there's so much quality art and music coming out of the christian hip-hop space that it doesn't necessarily have the same baggage that it did you know 20 years ago or something like that so so from a distance when i hear like other genres of Christian music, it does feel like – I'm sure we'll say several things that might be offensive. It's almost like, well, you couldn't quite make it because your music isn't that good, but you made it into Christian.

But in my experience with Christian rap, you guys – and maybe it goes back to Lecrae, I don't know. But you guys are respected as rappers as rappers. lecrae i don't know but like you guys are respected as rappers as rappers um and you happen to also be christian happen to have christian lyrics but it seems that the quality of the music is and i don't think this is that disputed is is like on par with like for lack of better terms mainstream stuff whereas other christian genres i don't know i don't know people would say the same thing is that an accurate observation or yeah i think so and i think there's a lot that actually goes into that. Um, I think that Christian hip hop, we don't have the, the industry and the infrastructure that, um, CCM has, um, Christian rock worship. So what I mean is we don't have radio. We don't have,

um, things like, we don't really have things like winter jam or, you know, creation fest, stuff like that. Um, just now we're like, some of us can have things like Winter Jam or, you know, Creation Fest, stuff like that. Just now we're like, some of us can get booked for that type of stuff. But we don't have this long history of industry infrastructure behind us. So for us to have any fan base at all, or to break through the noise of all of the media and internet that's out right now, our stuff really has to be excellent or nobody's going to listen to it. You know what I mean? So whereas I think a lot of the other Christian genres, you know, especially like Christian rock and some of the heavier stuff,

originally they were the same way. Like nobody, you know, the trailblazers of pretty much all of the Christian genres, like contemporary genres, they had to be excellent and they were being innovative and they were getting people's attention that way. But now, because there is kind of these circuits and these radio stations and like, OK, if you just do this formula, then you're going to have a certain fan base. If you just do this formula, then you're going to have a certain fan base. I think people are catering more towards the formula than they are just trying to make the best art that they can. And that's not the case for Christian hip hop because we don't have that luxury, if that makes sense. Why is that? I mean, you kind of touched on, I guess, but why the difference? Just the fan base isn't as big? That is a really good question. I think there has

been historically a resistance to Christian hip hop in the church, in a lot of the church. So I think there's been a resistance from the black church. And I think that that resistance is very legitimate. I have a lot of empathy for that because the communities that a lot of black churches are embedded in, they have seen a lot of adverse effects in the community from stuff that's talked about within rap music. So even the sound of it itself, I think my experience is, you know, Black church has been slower to accept Christian hip hop because it's like, man, let's just go a completely different way from that culture altogether. And I

think that's like that, that one, I'm like, I kind of get that. And then I think there's been resistance from the white church, especially conservative white churches, just kind of along the same, kind of along just like racial lines and political lines, like Christian nationalism lines, like just kind of the way that it's just slow to accept anything from the black community, even black preaching, everything, you know, everything kind of. And so I think I think that we saw kind of a reversal of that a little bit with Lecrae and 116 when they were embraced by, you know, John Piper and MacArthur and kind of, you know, in the, I guess that was like the early 2000 teens, late, late aughts. And there was kind of like a acceptance and that, you know, that, that was a huge boom. And then when like Lecrae kind of distanced himself from conservative evangelical culture, that that right there was the moment where Christian hip hop did start to have the infrastructure that we were talking about a minute ago and did start kind of having the circuits and stuff.

And once once that separation happened and that went away, it created this new wave of, OK, we're not playing towards any formula. We're not trying to make sure that we can get on, you know, whatever grace to you or Desiring God Conference or whatever it may be. We lost that. Now we're back to just, this is what we're passionate about. This is the way that we experience and talk about life with God. And we wanted to help and reach as many people as possible. And there is no circuit for us, so we're just going to make it amazing. In my anecdotal opinion, the music got better after that. Not better as in it was bad before but i i've sensed this unique passion i'm trying to search for the right word like um authenticity maybe like i feel like that the music

kind of posts that uh departure exit or exile or whatever it's it's the point and again if i i i'm only looking on from afar so i could be getting things wrong but there was that famous fourth of july tweet from lecrae yeah was that right was that kind of part of the like you know it was a picture of yeah a bunch of slaves picking cotton and he says here's my ancestors right fourth and i thought it was a brilliant i retweeted it um yeah it's great to think about um and it seemed like people really got upset over that but that seemed to be kind of like a tipping point of like people in mainstream. I don't want to use the term white evangelicalism, but let's just, let's just stick to, well, it's largely white, but I mean, mainstream evangelicalism, once Lecrae started getting

a little too into race, started getting a little too, one might even say a little too black. I think he's even said that. Um, and I've got several other friends that have kind of experienced that. They were part of this kind of reformed evangelicalism and they still kind of retain some of the theology, but they're like, man, there's a culture here that I just, I'm not, I'm not just your boy. I'm not just going to be used by you when I say all the right things. But the second I start to disrupt things a little too much, then you guys are like, where are you now? Is that, again just is that at all accurate

what kind of what happened or yeah i think i think it definitely is that instagram post and that tweet was i think that it was really just um like indicative of uh of what had already been going on like from my perspective that post was like late in the game as far as the separation between, yeah, between Christian hip hop and whatever term we want to use for that. It was kind of like the final blow, I guess. And it was just so interesting to me because that post was like, to me, was not even controversial, you know, to a lot of us within Christian hip hop. Like we were like, yeah, this makes sense. Had no idea that it was going to have the ramifications that it did. But I'm very, very, very glad that it did, because, again, it created this space where we're not trying to cater to anything that is inauthentic to us. And a lot of that stuff was inauthentic.

But it was just a way for it to be viable as a career. And I am so glad that I'm in this era where the fan base is largely people that are like the artists. is largely people that are like the artists. Whereas during that era, the fans were nothing like the artist. And that only happens in the niches within Christian art, if you think about it. The fans of a mainstream rap artist or a mainstream rock artist or mainstream pop artist, they are like the artist. We were experiencing something in the 2000 teens where the fan base was nothing like Lecrae's fans were not like Lecrae. And so there was this dissonance of like, anytime he expresses something that is authentic to himself that is outside of the jargon or the packaging or the theological stances of his fan base, then there was all of this backlash.

Whereas now things that would have been considered controversial during that era, our fans are like, we've been waiting for somebody to say this. So I'm very grateful that it happened. I think it was very necessary. Yeah. Again, I'm looking out from a distance. But again, there's an authenticity. Again, I don't want to say it wasn't there before. I don't know enough to say it was or wasn't.

But let me just say positively, in the last few years, just feel even with like the craze church clothes albums and and i mean your stuff too you narrate a lot of i mean there's if i can read between the line there's a lot of personal narrative in your music that but we'll come to you i want to look at some of your songs but um take us back let's go let's your personal journey. Yeah. Were you raised in a church, raised in the faith? And how'd you get into wanting to be a musician? Yeah, I was. I was raised in a Christian family. And in a lot of ways, that made it harder for the faith to become my own. I associated being a Christian with being a good kid, you know, obeying your parents, getting good grades, also being a Christian. Those kind of were like the same things to me. We go to church, we're church people, that type of thing. I kind of, you know, I haven't heard this term in a long time, but I kind of was like part of the easy believism thing.

Like I was just, you know, I was a VBS kid. I was the Juana kid. And so I was just like, oh, yeah, you know. And then when it really became my own was towards the end of high school, right before college. A preacher was preaching on James 219. You believe there is one God, you do well, even the demons believe and shudder. And that sermon and kind of all of the implications of it, that demons themselves believe in God, not only that, but when they see Jesus, they know who he is. They know he is the son of man, the son of God. They fall prostrate or cause the people that they're embodying to fall prostrate.

They say, have you come to destroy us before the time? They beg to be sent into the pigs instead of destroyed, like all of these things. So they know who God is. They know who Jesus is. things. So they know who God is. They know who Jesus is. They know they're going to be destroyed in some passages. So, you know, their eschatology is good. And so, yeah, that really shook me to my core because I'm like, well, you know, James made sure to say and shudder. Like they also have fear. So it's like, what is separating me from, from the demons then in this, you know? And, um, the pastor continued on that, like the difference is, is the desire to follow Jesus, um, as your savior and Lord, like follow him. Like, I want to walk with you. So that was like the, that, that was when it was like, okay, like life has to look a lot different if this is true. So that on the faith side, that's kind of.

How old were you at that time when you heard that sermon? I was 17. Oh, okay. So, and like I said, I had been going to church all my life. You know, I, I, I got that like a one award for like memorizing like 300 verses or whatever, the Timothy award, all of that. And I mean, I, I had like a pretty good, like head knowledge of the whole thing. And I, I'm in a sense, I did believe, like, I didn't not think that God was real. It was just that, honest look at my life when I was 17 was like,

I don't think I'm really walking with Jesus. I don't think we're on this journey together. As far as music, I was brought up in a musical family as well. My uncle is a Grammy award-winning drummer and a session and touring drummer in Nashville. And I grew up going to his like gigs at primarily jazz clubs. That's what he was really into. At the jazz clubs, there would also be spoken word poets. And so I was kind of like engrossed in this culture of like literally rhythm and poetry. You know, my first kind of touch point with it was doing spoken word poetry when I was really young. I started like when I was nine and was doing like open mic nights and competitions and everything. and was doing like open mic nights and competitions and everything. And that kind of naturally evolved into rap and hip hop in middle school.

And my parents were very supportive of like my interest in the arts and music. And so they would like for my birthdays, they would take me and my friends to recording studios and stuff like that. And so in middle school, we had a little rap group and we're like selling CDs and burnt CDs in the hallway and stuff like that. And I went to MTSU for music production. I wanted to be a music producer, but I got into the classes and pretty soon I found that I was like way behind the ball. Like for like those students were like so much more well-versed in all that stuff. And I was like, okay, I think I'm just going to go into the music business side and be like an artist manager. And so that's what I focused on. I interned for Derek Minor at Reflection Music Group. I became a merchandise manager, a road manager, road managed Derek,

Tadashi, Trip Lee, that allowed me to be on the tour buses with those guys and with Lecrae on Winter Jam. So that was actually my origin story for Christian hip hop was working for those guys. Were you producing music on your own on the side or were you just focusing on managing? Yeah, I was. So pretty much since I was, you know, seven, I've always made songs, whether I could record them or not. And so, yeah, from seven on, I was you know seven I've always made songs whether I could record them or not and so yeah from seven on I was always making music whether I thought of it as a viable career or not that that was just something that I was going to be doing so yeah and then you uh I read

somewhere what was it Derek that gave you like was he kind of your inroad into becoming your own like independent artist through all that or that's right yeah um so I was uh I was his road manager at the time and I was also making music on the side and Derek is such I mean all those guys that I just mentioned are so like generous and yeah um but Derek like specifically he's just like a really generous guy and he wanted to build up kind of the the students um at MTSU who kind of took the same path as him so there was like a group of us who he kind of mentored um and he just he he used to have a studio on the square out here in Murfreesboro and he just like gave us a key to it and so we could just go and record at any time and he had like we so we were in there all the time of course and he like left a bag or something in the studio one day and he came

in there and heard what we were recording and he was like who is this and i was like that's me he was like this is you i was like yeah and so he uh he tweeted out um a link to that song that we were working on and that was like uh the first little buzz that i ever got was was uh from uh, from that. So what song was it? So it was either a song called Indie or a song called Beauty, but actually I think it was Indie. I think it was Indie. That's probably the, the song that like people who, you know, have been listening to me since 2015, that was probably the first song that they heard. Okay. So, but yeah, the big story with Derek was after that, he asked me, I kept making

music, you know, and he, he was like, do you want to be a road manager all your life? Or do you want to be, be an artist? And at the time I was just, I knew how risky it was to be an artist. And I was just like, well, I mean, in a perfect world, I'd be an artist, but I think I got a good thing going, like on the management side. And he was like, okay, you're fired. So he was like... Kicked you out of the mask. Yeah, yeah. He said, I've never seen somebody who has really made it in the music industry

while having a safety net. So he kind of cut the net. Was that scary? Yeah. So that must have been exhilarating and also scary at the same time. What are those first few years like as you're trying to produce more music? Yeah, it was. And, you know, that was, man, that was like straight out of college,

like no money. It was just grind time. Like as soon as he said that, it was like, okay, well I need to really give like all I can to this and see if it really is like the door that God wants me to walk through. So that first year I did three mixtapes within like nine months, put out three projects and really my initial fan base was built off of that. So it's like he I think he like fired me in like, I don't know, like maybe January or February or something like that. And then by Christmas, I had three projects out. and then the following january rapzilla put out like their their freshman list and i was on that and and i was on derrick's album um empire and that's kind of like how i was launched so were you you were uh you weren't with a label early on, right? You were just independent. And then did you end up signing with the label? That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. I was independent. And then after those three projects and it was, let's see, those three projects were 2015. And then I took a year to create my first album in 2016. And then 2017, January, I believe i released my first album canopy and when i released that album then there was like a it attracted the attention of multiple labels and so there was like a kind of a label bidding war on like signing me and that was a very crazy time because I, uh, I, I just, I didn't expect

that at all. Like that was never, um, a goal for me to, like, I wasn't trying to get a record deal. Um, I was really influenced heavily by Chance the Rapper and his whole independent movement at the time. And this is before Coloring Book. This is before a lot of people even knew him. I was a fan really early off of his 10-day mixtape and then Acid Rap. And I was just like, man, he was kind of leading this new school of independent rappers. And that's all I was really focused on. However, when the labels did come and there was like this bidding war, it was like,

dang, this is crazy. Like, you know, I'm newly married. Like maybe this is how this is actually going to support us, you know, full time. And so, you know, some of the labels were headed up by my friends, you know, like Derek had a label, RMG was, you know, considering signing me. And then Lecrae's label Reach was considering signing me. And that also added like, honestly, like a lot of tension to it. Cause I was like, I don't want to like offend one of my friends by signing to the label. I don't want to put stress on their relationship. I don't want to put stress on our relationship. Right. And so in the middle of kind of that tension, um, capital CMG made an offer. And after praying about it and talking to my wife about it and talking to everybody about it, I was like, I think this is the best move because it stays neutral as far as my relationships with my friends.

And it's just kind of a business move. And therefore, we can structure this deal so that it's just business. You know what I mean? Give me this money. I want to do this with it. Let me have creative control. And it's not tied to relationships. It's not tied to, well, I think your career should do this or whatever. So yeah, so I signed with Capital CMG late 2017. Because you're independent now. You went back to... That's right. So there's a story there.

What's the pros and cons maybe of being with a label versus being independent? And why does it seem like more and more people are going independent maybe? Yeah, one thing I say is I'm not anti-label. It just has to be a right fit for the artist and for the label. For me personally, I am actually very appreciative of the people at Capital CMG, at least the team that was there while I was signed because I was unhappy about eight months in. It just wasn't working out the way that I wanted it to. And I asked to get out of the deal. And we had to have a couple of meetings about it, but ultimately they released me without

any strings attached. So for example, I signed for 60 masters, which means 60 songs essentially. Um, and I did one album with them. So I did, I gave them like 12 masters and then they just left, they, they let me out of the deal. So typically what you hear with like, you know, these nightmare label situations, you know, in pop culture is what would have happened is they would have been like, no, you have to fulfill your contract so either you stay on the label and finish out your contracted 60 songs you know um or or you know 48 songs um that you haven't given us or like you can be off the label but we're gonna own, like your next 48 songs are going to belong to us. And Capital CMG didn't do that. They, yeah. So the very next song that I released was Independent. So I do want to send a shout out to them because that's not typically

how it happens. And I think that that's a rare story where a Christian label actually conducted themselves like Christians above. So shout out to them. But as far as what are the pros and cons, if you have an entrepreneurial mindset and you are kind of built to be an independent artist, which means you are able to create quality content consistently over a long period of time, it's got to be all three of those quality, consistently over a long period of time. It's got to be all three of those quality, consistency over a long period of time. If you can do that and you can say, I'm treating this like any startup, like I'm not planning to be in the black until year five. Anything above that is a major success. If you have that mindset and those abilities, then you should highly consider remaining independent. If you're an

artist and all you want to do is make music and then have a team do all the marketing, do all the positioning, come up with release plans, with rollouts, all that type of stuff, those type of artists, I think you're potentially a good fit for a label. What I tried to do with my deal was kind of a hybrid where, okay, the label has a lot more money. That's the main thing. That's really all you need. Like, that's what a label is, is like a bank. That's a healthy way to think of it is it's a bank that gives you a loan with like really, really good terms because they can only, their loan can only be paid back through the release of your music. So they can't garnish your wages. They can't take it from like your house or anything like a bank

could. Like if a bank gives you a loan, everything's on the table. Label, if you look at it that way, you're good. Cause it's like, okay, they're giving me this money. And the way that I pay them back is through music. Everything else in my life is protected. music to be as widespread as possible. And I think that when that happens, my merch, my shows, everything else will blow up so much that I won't miss the ownership of my music. That's a healthy way to approach a label. It's similar to writing. I mean, that's, you know, yeah. Do you go with a traditional publisher? Do you go independent and self-produce your stuff or whatever it's a hard tension man i mean i i've only done a couple self-produced things and it's it's a lot more work and it's i don't know i think i think writing's i think it's different though we don't

have a spotify we don't have i don't know i feel like there's an overlap but it is it is different and i've stuck with a traditional publisher to primarily be i mean distribution's a lot better and the infrastructure. They have the editors. They have the copy editor. They have the cover design. They work with Amazon. I don't even know how to put a book on Amazon.

So I mean there's so much stuff on the back end. I'm like I don't want to spend time doing that. I would imagine with music though, I mean like you said, you're entrepreneurial. You seem to enjoy the whole industry, the process, not just producing music and having someone else run with it. But, I mean, you've done production. You've done – you went to school for the whole production side of things, right? Yeah. And I think that you were saying more and more people you see going independent.

So a lot of it is that this kind of connects to what we were talking about earlier, but labels want you to do what has worked before. So they're going to influence you as much as possible to fit into a mold or a format that has already worked. And that's what started to happen. They need to sell, right? There's a market. There's a base. There's a market base happen they need to sell right there's a market there's a there's a base there's a market base they need to sell which understand it's understandable it's like i don't i don't fault them for that but at the same time that could stifle for lack of better terms prophetic creativity i mean i feel like musicians are kind of the prophets of the

of the day and they're able to see things that are coming and rather than just appeal for the things that have been right but that might be when you're on that kind of cutting edge of seeing things you might not have the initial fan base for like a better term just at the beginning it usually comes five ten years later right right yeah yeah so that's what started to happen to me on the label was like being pushed into a sound and like even messaging that wasn't true to me. So I was like, this is not why I got into it. Like this is, I'm not just, if I was just trying to make money or be popular, like I would do something else. Like I really want the music to be what I, yeah, I agree with you. Like, I think that there are specific things that God wants to accomplish through me, like through the music that I make. And I don't mean that in a prideful way. I just think that God is the, he is the ultimate creator. He is the most creative being that there is. And I think that's a very ignored aspect of God, which is how, how could we ignore

that? Like, but he, like, whatever you think creativity is, whoever you think is the most creative or the most creative idea, like God created the concept of creativity. Like, so he is more creative than whatever the most beautiful creation or art, you know what I mean? So I think that him being a creator, there are certain things that he wants to accomplish through creators in the world. And I want to tap into whatever he has ordained for me to make and not sacrifice that for money or acclaim, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I want to get – there's a few songs where what you're saying, I feel like it's there in the lyrics.

We'll get to in a second. Where do you draw your inspiration from? I guess it's a two-pronged question. I mean, your music, I mean, Lecrae, KB, John Keith, I mean, there's such theological sophistication and also you're drawing on just such a wide range of authentic life experiences. You'll go politics, culture, your own kind of personal journey. You'll talk about highs, lows, lament, joy, the rawness of even you talk about the lure of the lure of money even in in the industry and how that can stifle your faith i mean i might be even i don't want to put words in it yeah so where do you draw you do you do you read a lot or do you just go on like life experiences or and where do

you get i mean the theological sophistication is just i don't can i be honest we're 40 minutes in this episode yeah I don't even love rap music yeah yeah yeah this is this is a compliment but I can't stop listening to your stuff

I listen every day at the gym I work out too I'm looking at lyrics I'm like in between songs like studying everything I didn't grow up I mean I

you know I like a lot of other genres but it's not it's not my go-to genre at all but I mean so I think it's almost all I listen to anymore, primarily because there's such a beauty and creativity and power to the music.

Anyway, where do you draw your inspiration from? Yeah, I would definitely say life experience. I lived in nine different states before I was nine, You know, my I lived in nine different states before I was nine all over the like pretty much in every region except the Pacific Northwest. My mom liked to she really just wanted to broaden me, my brother, our friends, like kind of view of the world. So she would take us on these like road trips, you know, just really amazing things. Like she took us to, she took us to like, um, uh, Coretta Scott King's funeral, like just like different, you know, she, he's an educator at heart. Even she homeschooled my brother for a while and homeschooled me for one year, but most of my schooling was like public school, but she

just still would do her own like field trips or her own lessons or whatever. And so I think that all that to say, I think that like broadened my mind a lot when I was young. I just didn't have a lot of boxes that a lot of people have. Like my general thought is like, well, why can't we do this? You know, and I think that was given to me by my, by my mom. And so that allows me to approach travel conversations, interactions with so much like curiosity. I know I present, like I read a lot, but I actually don't read a lot. I always want to. Yeah, I don't. I know. I know it seems like that, but I want to read more. But I do think that I like I think I soak up stuff at a at a higher level than like an above average level. So when I do read, I feel like I'm thinking about all the different ways that all the different implications of one statement or like with movies. Like I know sometimes my wife is like,

you are going on and on and on about this one little thing that happened in the movie. But I'm just thinking about like all the connections, all the metaphor, all the, and it's funny, there's this Chance the Rapper line where he says, there's a lot of metaphors, you just lack vision. And I feel like that is my general thing is like, there are so many implications, there's so many metaphors that you can draw out of one thing. A lot of people just don't take the time to do it or whatever, their minds aren't wired like that. So when you listen to one of my verses, you know, a lot of them feel that way. A lot of times I'm making references that I don't, I'm not even well versed in before I write the verse. Like I start writing the verse and kind of the way that I write is music first. So,

you know, we have the production and then I'm kind of like freestyling and getting flows and rhyme scheme. And then the rhyme kind of starts to, that's the beginning of the structure. I'm following the rhyme. I'll say, like in freestyling, I'll say a word or a term that maybe I'm not that well versed in. Maybe it's a quote from a movie or a book or something that I've just heard in conversation, I've heard in media. And then I will look that stuff up and I'll like read about it and watch videos on it. And then I know about it. And then I start like making all these different. So, yeah, my writing sessions look crazy.

Like it'll be like a pen and pad here. I'm typing on my phone. I've got like YouTube up. I've got Google up. The song's playing. So the reading might come after. You might have a line that comes to you through a life experience

and then you want to chase it down and tease it out. And okay, that's interesting. This episode is sponsored by Athletic Greens, now called AG1. So AG1 is a comprehensive nutrition blast to the body. It's packed with 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food-sourced ingredients. It supports your immune system.

It also aids in digestion and your overall gut health. And as you probably know, I mean, your gut health is so important for your overall mental and physical well-being. Look, I've tried all kinds of different nutrition drinks, vitamin supplements, green powders, you name it. I found AG1 to be the absolute best nutritional supplement. I've been taking it for almost a year now, and I can truly feel the difference. I usually take like a serving early in the morning. And if I'm feeling particularly run down, maybe I'm stressed out or didn't sleep well, I'll sometimes take another serving in the afternoon. And look, I can truly, truly feel the difference. My energy levels are up. I feel a lot more mental clarity. And just

in case you think I'm getting free supplies of AG1, and I have to say this, I pay retail price for AG1. I pay the same thing you pay and I have paid it and I will continue to take AG1 because it is so incredibly good. So if you want to take ownership of your health and try AG1 and get a one year free supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs, you can do so with your first purchase. Just go to drinkag1.com forward slash T-I-T-R. That's drinkag1.com forward slash T-I-T-R.

All right, dude, let's get to some music here. So this first one, so I'm just going to go in order of my, I just had to pick my top four favorite songs of yours. Hands down, and my son's going to crack up when he listens to this, but we've got to talk about One Way. Son of God, doing what the sun say Minimalist with the feng shui Heart garden, I'm like Hardin with the pump fake We ain't going back and forth, this is one way Every golden road in heaven is a one way Serve a big God, I'ma see him one day Okay great, that was one take But your lyrics didn't give him hope, let alone faith

My relationship with the music, it be love, hate They be wanting me to use it in the wrong way I was happy in the Buick with the ball fade Now I'm discontent with the life that I pray for. It just goes to show achievement isn't what we made for. Selling us the lie that we'd be happy if we made more. I worry less when I pray more. This is holy war.

Better watch out for the claymore. You could ride a wave. Here's a wakeboard. And I keep it P like a skateboard. Play your part and he gon' part the scene. I was looking back at Egypt. It was hard to see. It was getting hard to see. Pardon me. That was a, that was produced by Ace at Reach Records.

Man, yeah, I just got to send a shout out to Ace. It's like so much of what I create and so much of my career is just based on relationship, which that's the other thing. If you're an independent artist, basically your whole career is relationships. But yeah, so one way same thing ace like created the i think he had a rough version of the of the beat he had the sample in there and sent it over and that's like the the inspiration point is the is the music and i just vision of like, like a one way street leading to eternity with Jesus and how like, once you start with him, like once he captures your heart, like that's it. Like the, the work,

like he is going to make sure that you, you reach your destination, you know? So that was like the spark of one way. And then I was just like tapped into that one idea and like exploring all the different, you know, that's every golden road in heaven is a one way is the first line. And so, like I said, I had that vision of like this one way street. And then it was like the connection of street to, oh, when have I heard about streets in heaven? Oh, they're streets of gold. You know what I mean? And so then it was like, well, what if I'm taking that literally, then they're one-way streets.

Because there's no going back. You know what I mean? Every golden road in heaven is a one-way. So every big God, I'm going to see him one day. I forget where this is in the song. You started getting into kind of your personal relationship with music, my relationship with the music. It'd be love, hate. They wanted me to use it in the wrong way. I was happy in the Buick with the ball fade. Now I'm content with the life that

I prayed for. That's yeah. Yeah. So here you're, you're, you're, you're trying to break into the industry or you're trying to you know get in and you work so hard so hard so hard all of a sudden going back to your own story you're now you got record labels throwing stuff at you and you you kind of arrived with some extent and then you're like uh this isn't yeah is this am i reading in is that a correct interpretation that's right yeah yeah baby you want me to use it in the wrong way i was happy in the buick with the buffet now i'm discontent with the life that I prayed for. Yeah. So it was like keeping the driving and the road imagery. They want me to use it in the wrong

way, like a wrong way sign. I was happy in the Buick. So now we're talking about a car, the ball fade. So I had a, I had a, that was like my first car, you know, was a Cutlass Supreme, which is an Oldsmobile, but that is like owned by Buick. So that was my first car. And I had a bald fade at the time. Like my hair was very short. That was like my childhood haircut. And so I was thinking back to those days where like we were doing this for the love of it. We were making no money at all.

You know, we were working at Pizza Hut just to have enough money to buy a terrible, you know, Walmart USB mic to, you know, record these raps that we were doing. But we were so happy. Like it was like amazing, you know. that we were doing, but we were so happy. Like it was like amazing, you know? And then, you know, we're just praying for the ability to like, you know, make it big one day or whatever. And then, like you said, that happens with the bidding war and like all these relationships get involved. And then it's like, oh, now it's not for the love of it anymore. Now it's like the bottom line of making money or having a platform or a claim. And you feel this discontentment set in that you told yourself when you were young, if I could just get to that place, everything will be perfect. And then you get there and that same discontentment that all of us experience sets in.

And it's like, you have to refocus on the bigger story of Jesus and what he's doing or you're going to succumb to that discontentment no matter who you are, no matter how much you have. It's a powerful song. Honestly, the beat is so unique. Where did that... Wait, it was your buddy that came up with that? Ace. Yeah, Ace at Reach Records.

He's an amazing producer. He's powered a lot of the hits that Christian hip hop artists like. And I was talking about how it's all relational. The thing is, it's not like, for me at least, I don't just ask a random producer for a beat. These are people that I've spent a lot of time with. We've gone out to like, we've gone to dinners together. We've like done trips together.

And so you start to have this like almost telepathic connection. Like you have this symbiotic relationship where he knew to send me that beat. He wasn't sending that to somebody else. He made that beat. Dill will sound good on this. This will be inspiring to him. He picked the sample that way. He made the drums that way.

And so that's why a lot of my songs... This is a little short rabbit hole, but there was a time where a lot of people would ask me to like write hooks for other people or write, you know, even verses for other artists because they're like, oh, your music's doing so good. Like, you know, you can maybe breathe some new life into this artist or whatever. maybe breathe some new life into this artist or whatever. And it never really worked because my stuff is so like specific and authentic to me. Like, it doesn't even make sense coming from somebody else. Like I don't really know how to write in a general commercial way,

you know, for other people. So, but yeah, man, one way is one of my favorites. All right. This next one is called What A Day. The sun ain't nothing new, but it's a sunny day Tryna spend this money like he coming, he ain't running late This your kid, cut the check, indie tribe, cut the cake Hundred grand, hundred K, hundred bands, what a day Look, chasing out the money make you run in place I just call my mother, said your son is straight You don't break that bread up, that's a ton of weight Had to double up on generosity when I up the feed

Know it through my sin inside the sea, left it on the tree Demons, they be looking real depressed, put it on a tee I can't treat the greed like sin inside the sea. Left it on the tree. Mean as they be looking real depressed. Put it on a tee. I can't treat the greed like it's a pet and put it on a leash. I just need some tender love and care. There's a lot of creeps chasing waterfalls and in the mud and then he scrub me clean. Yeah, TLC, I'm good. I feel like GLC.

Laughing all the way up to the bank. I feel like peeling keys. I was busy cuddling up to Calvin. Yeah, so this one seems to have a lot of, again, personal journey in it. There's one, okay, I do want to ask about this line. You were busy cuddling up to Calvin. It was killing me. I think that's when I met the Lord, but felt like he wasn't feeling me.

Is this, again, a lot of people that I know, the Lecraes and others, and I mean, Jackie Hill and others, you know, had this experience with kind of mainstream reform evangelicalism. Yeah. Is this what you're referring to here? Is this part of your journey? Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think that the kind of the bounce of that song and how it feels like people don't necessarily notice like the depth of the lyrics

in this song but yeah i was busy cuddling up to calvin it was killing me i think that's when i met the lord but felt like he wasn't feeling me so keep going the next lines the next two lines are great uh made it hard to love the poor and widows yeah yeah i made it hard to love the poor and widows let alone the lord i was focused on the court and if he had acquitted me. Yeah. So, you know, when I told you that I heard that sermon when I was 17, I was very much like in a, you know, Calvinist culture. I do think that that's when I a loving father. So it just made me afraid of him. And, you know, if you have one, if you have just some of God's attributes in your heart and not all of them, then man, like like you don't have you don't really have the picture of our God. And so, yeah, so that's how, you know, I was busy cuddling up to Calvin.

It was killing me. I think that's when I met the Lord. It felt like he wasn't feeling me. I felt like he didn't love me. I felt like I needed to, like, straighten up and fly right and take him seriously. But I could not feel his like mercy and grace. And of course, if you're always worried about your like legal position before a righteous and wrathful judge, then love is not going to overflow into service because you don't feel loved. Like the only way for it to overflow into joyful, loving service of, you know, the poor and the widows or whoever you're serving,

the orphans, whoever, the only way it's actually going to overflow from a joyful place is if you believe that you are loved and you are secure in the father's hands. Otherwise that service is just going to be legalism. You're just going to be trying to kind of balance the scales and get in God's favor by helping other people. Yeah, that's a very deep lyric in that song. It jumped out at me, man. I was focused on the

court and if he had acquitted me, going back to the reformed emphasis on justification, justification, justification, am I right before this angry and wrathful God? And it's like, that's one side of, you know, like, I don't want to dismiss the importance of that, but when that becomes the center of your whole theological orbit, yeah, I think you miss out on other important metaphors. All right, this next one, I got to admit, I just love the beat of this song. When I'm at the gym and it's leg day and I just need to get ramped up, I put on lighter fluid. We all right. Everyone think they hot until you put the fire to it. Came out my mama and I was covered in like a fluid.

Think I could walk on water since I saw Messiah do it. Thank God I walked on water. It must be the line of Judah. I think you wash your hands if you really saw Pilate do it. I know depression feel like a lion when fighting through it. I might have blew my mind If I didn't tie to what Jairus doing I saw the fire call him in the sky

And I'm flying to it Everybody think they hot to the fire crew You're not a gremlin Cause you could order a higher gun If you offended and grab a sword Then you'll die for more Don't get it twisted You just a wick to the wicked

Everyone think they hot until Yeah, tell us about the song. I don't even have any lyrics listed out here. I just love, love, yeah, the song just hits. Lighter Fluid is definitely, it's a newer one, and it's definitely one of my favorites. Lighter Fluid is, it's from the perspective of somebody who has experienced, like, multiple disadvantages in life, but still perseveres through them holding on

to the hope of God being with them. So everyone think they hot until you put the fire to them, came out my mama and I was covered in lighter fluid. So it's like in a world where we all have to experience different fire, there are some of us who had even more of a disadvantage. That's like being born with lighter fluid instead of, you know, like being covered in lighter fluid coming out. So, yeah, everyone think they hot until you put the fire to them, until you test them. Came out my mama and I was covered in lighter fluid. Think I could walk on water since I saw Messiah do it. Thank God I walked on water. It must be the line of Judah.

So it's like somebody who's born with that disadvantage, like covered in lighter fluid into the flame. And they're saying, but I think I can walk on water since I saw Messiah do it. And it's like kind of calling to mind that picture of Peter seeing Jesus and like, I want to do that. I think I can do that. You know, thank God I walked on water. It must be the line of Judah. That one's kind of self-explanatory. I love the emphasis on God's grace and sovereignty there in a sense. Like to me, that would be a healthy Calvinism. Like Christ is a reason why I'm able to walk on, I am walking on water, but I mean, I am through him, right? Like he's the one doing it. I'm not

doing it. All right. The last one. I think this might be your most listened to on Spotify. Willie, is Willie the most popular song you have right now on Spotify? So popular and most listened to on Spotify, Willie? Is Willie the most popular song you have right now on Spotify? So popular and most listened to are different things on Spotify, which is interesting. But Willie is my most listened to song ever. Okay. My current most popular is King Jesus with KB. Oh, right.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But Willie has the most raw streams of any song that I've put out. But Willie has the most raw streams of any song that I've put out. the rap, hating Dilly, man, you gotta be an idiot, in fact, took the monkey off, then I put the city on my back, country boy, but I hang around city slickers, this is, well, I got it at the kitty litter, if my brother need a dollar, he gonna get a tenner, Yeshua in Nazareth was not a penny pincher, how you got it out the mud, I never been mudding, wise man know he don't really know nothing, every night I got a demon saying post some this is everyday struggle yeah i said peace to the industry i do it alone i'm a beast you especially sweet you don't

want to smoke you a tweet i'm reality paris and nicole i know arrogance can feel like heroin inside a dome it's imperative to get in when did this song come out this has been out for is this kind of but you really like i mean i I mean, did it give you a big bump? I would say so. It was 2020, I believe. So I definitely had like a fan base before that. I've been full time since 2017. You know, we support ourselves off of music and we already were.

We support ourselves off of music and we already were. But that definitely introduced me to a much bigger fan base and put me kind of in a different position. You know, Andy's fan base is just so big and he was coming off of that off of Better Late Than Never tour with Lecrae, which I also was on. So the timing of it, especially in the pandemic where people really wanted like well-produced content and hopeful content, it just kind of, God's providence in it was amazing. But yeah, that put me on like a whole different level, I would say. So can you unpack it for us? What's the song all about? Hey, Dilly, man, you got to be an idiot. In fact, took the monkey off, then I put the city on my back.

Country boy, I'm about to hang around. It's really just a narrative story. I I'm gonna give you an exclusive right here I really wrote that song to be a collaboration with uh Toby Wigway um at the time because I had met him on uh Better Late Than Never tour but he left my DM on scene. And so I was like, all right, well, I guess I'll just finish this song myself. No, shout out to Toby. He like blew up after that. And then I showed it to Andy and I was just showing it to him because, you know, we already

had a relationship. We were friends. And he was like, oh, I think we could, you know, do something to this. And so that song was really just I was focused on introducing myself in narrative form to my fan base because it had been a while since I did an album in 2020. So it's really a lot of the lyrics are just about like who I am, where I came from, you know, I really wanted to champion, this is interesting. I wanted to, I think that black men, especially in rap music and media that kind of is influenced by rap music were presented one way, were presented like inner city,

you know, and then all the, all the ugly tropes, you know, violin and drug dealers and gang bangers. And, but even, even if it's positive, even if it's a positive portrayal, it's still inner city where, you know, I grew up in a rural area of Tennessee and there are so many Black people there. Like there's so many Black people in rural areas. There's Black people involved in agriculture and that grow up in these communities, you know, have country accents, the whole nine, you know, ride horses, like, but they're still,

they're separate. It's like, they don't have a home. It's like, we don't have a home. It's like, we don't have a home. Cause it's like, it's separate from inner city, urban culture. And it's still separate from like what people tend to think of in rural areas, which is like conservative, um, redneck or yeah, yeah, yeah. Conservative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually a better word. Like, but there's this whole other culture. And I actually coined a term from it, which is like sub-rural street culture. Because you hear of suburban, right? Suburban, suburban. But this is like, well, it's not the suburbs even. It's not as rural as you could get, but it's small town America. And so like sub-rural and then street culture. Because even in those cultures, like we still are influenced by hip hop culture. So it's like somebody, you know, who like a black person who grows up in these areas, like they like we still wear clothes a certain way. We still wear jewelry a certain way. We might have the grills and whatever.

wear jewelry a certain way. We might have the grills in, whatever. But it's notably different than inner city. And it's notably different than like redneck culture, like what you said. And so I really wanted to champion that. So that's like the, you know, Lil Dilly from the bottom of the map. I ain't got to have the strap. I still get them with the rap. Country Boy, but I hang around City Slickers, like all of that. I really wanted to start to build a home for people like that in music. That's what my song Sticks and Fieldhouse Freestyle. Yeah, all of those songs are trying to represent what I feel like is an underrepresented culture and media. I'm just curious. Well, I guess you kind of touched on it, but like, what would be the, in that sub rural culture, music of choice is it still

hip-hop is it a a blend a blend okay it's a blend yeah so uh is it country that listen to country music more than is there yeah yeah it's like that's what i'm saying i mean it i wish somebody would do like a documentary on it it's fascinating because it's like it's still we listen to hip-hop but we listen to country music um and then we would listen to some of these like underground artists who were like kind of in between. And now there's like, now there's an industry component where there are some artists, you know, I guess the famous one is like Old Town Road, right? Like it was like, oh, it's this country, it's this hip hop, right? What I'm saying is since I was a kid, we had been making music like that or hearing local artists make music that sounded like a less polished version of Old Town Road. So for everybody who felt like, oh, this is a new thing. The thing is Lil Nas, now he's gone

like a completely different way, but Lil Nas X is exactly who I'm talking about. His actual, different way, but Lil Nas X is exactly who I'm talking about. His actual, he would fit into like the culture that I'm talking about when he was growing up, not necessarily now. Chris Brown, the same way. He's from a small town in Tappahannock, Virginia. Now you would think he was from LA. And that's kind of what I'm saying is like, there hasn't been somebody who has just championed that because once you get into the industry, then they push you into these other tropes. What would it look like if Chris Brown was proud and stayed that way? You know what I mean? T-Pain is like that. There's a rapper named David Banner from Mississippi who was like that. from Mississippi who was like that. But it's Soulja Boy is from Mississippi. So it's like all of these. But now you would think they were from Atlanta or something like that.

Because you get pushed into, okay, are you an Atlanta rapper? Are you a New York rapper? Are you an LA rapper? Not are you a Tappahannock, Virginia? Not are you a Tupelo, Mississippi? Not are you a Shelbyville, Tennessee rapper? and so i was trying to make a home like there was this one group called uh nappy roots from bowling green kentucky uh who in the early 2000s they had a pretty big run and they they're like the only group that i feel like really

epitomized what i was talking about and stuck to it. But the label dropped them after their second album. And that was kind of it. So like... You almost have to be independent, right? To be able to fit the genre that you feel most at home with, but might not have the kind of fan base or expectations that people... That's right. I mean, is that...

I mean, like Southern rock, blues. And there's some... Sometimes when you blend those two, expectations that people that's right is that i mean is that i mean like southern rock blues and there's some sometimes when you blend those two i feel like that's that has a similar feel to that sub rule that's right yeah yeah i would say like the the you know the kids that grew up at the time that i grew up we would be like musical and maybe even biological descendants of yeah like when you know people like bbk and and chuck berry and muddy waters even yeah we're making like electric blues um and then you know they they would just they would like ray charles didn't care he would do every type of genre he didn't feel like he was in any box. Ray Charles would do a country album. He'd do a blues album. He'd do a rock and roll album. He'd do a pop album. And that's that I feel like got lost in kind of in the age of polarizing media

instead of like championing Stevie Wonder and and, you know, these people who fit into all these different cultures. Now it's like, no, you're Black. Okay. You're a gangster rapper. Like, period. Like, that's what you are, you know, instead of a multi-hyphenate. And so it's like, I love kind of championing the alternative to that, which is why I was drawn to people like Chance the Rapper and Childish Gambino, because they're kind of a call back to that, which is why I was drawn to people like Chance the Rapper and Childish Gambino, because they're kind of a callback to that, you know, to where it's like, no, I don't have to fit into one box. I can do a live musical one day and I can do a rap album the next day and I can collab with Coldplay the next day. Like... Doesn't the, I mean, with the internet in the

last 10 years or so, doesn't that open up a lot of genre collaboration and crossover? Yes, the internet. And more recently, TikTok and the responses to TikTok. So Instagram Reels and stuff like that. I think it's the best time ever to be an independent artist because you can skip every single gatekeeper that there's ever been on TikTok or on Instagram Reels. So there are people who I've known and worked with since 2015 who were not really able to get, you know, the breaks that I was able to get or build the relationships with people that were that would platform them in the way that I was, the relationships with people that were that would platform them in the way that i was that have um leveraged tick tock into finally having these like viable careers um because what they do is

so impressive and tick tock is a performative social media so if you can again high quality consistency over a long period of time that's what what my friends had. And that's why it's finally working. Cause if they would have gave up before TikTok blew up in the pandemic, then they would have had high quality and consistency, but they didn't persevere. And so nothing happened, but since they persevered into this newer era where you can go direct to the fans with tiktok now they have these viable careers you know yeah that's what a time to be alive man yeah all right i'm taking you over an hour man but i've got to advertise uh smoke fest 23 tell us about that august 18th and 19th in nashville yes sir uh This is what I'm most proud of right now. I'm most passionate about,

which is our independent, owned and operated festival in Nashville. Like you said, always 18th and 19th at Rocket Town. There is no organization, label, corporation involved in this at all. This is all independent artists, like I said, owned and operated. Our headliners this year are Lecrae, King's Kaleidoscope, and Indie Tribe, the group that I'm a part of.

But we have all up and down the lineup. We have amazing talent. We have Hovi and the New Respects and John Keith and all different types of people. I'm excited about it because we're not just trying to build a concert, but we're actually trying to build festival culture within the Christian space, which I don't think has been done very well, especially for non-CCM, non-industry artists, the artists that we've been talking about. This is the first festival that is really built for and by those independent artists who are pushing the envelope sonically with the message, with the aesthetics. And we want to platform them and empower them. So we also have an educational wing of the festival called Indie Institute, which has industry professionals come and do panels and equip independent artists. And that's free. We're making that free for artists. We have a block party aspect, which is outside, which is also free to the public. And it focuses on the nashville community so all of the vendors

from the dj to the food everything is going to be local vendors um it's not you know people that are just in the christian hip-hop space that were that we're just kind of like embedding into nashville we want we want nashville vendors to have a spot there and then we have two days of yeah um of music that we put on so you got my buddy uh jay newman is he he might be he said yeah that's right is he dude his barbecue is the best man it's amazing i'm excited about that i host a conference here in boise called exiles in babylon and he drives a smoker out every year to smoke meat for our conference. Wow. Okay. He's good, man. It's A1, right? It's A1, man. No, this dude is, uh, his whiskey, whiskey soaked brisket. He could charge whatever he wants. It's unbelievable. And all

this stuff is so good because he, he, he barbecue for him is an art and almost a religion yeah yeah no you can't go wrong with with him he's a pit master for real he is a pit i mean he's a he's the head or a pit master for one of the highly rated joints in east nashville um but he's been studying barbecue for like 20 years yeah he's good i might come out dude i my um my my son is a huge fan me uh my wife yeah we're gonna try to try to make out so um yeah maybe we can meet up that'd be amazing how many people you think will be there is like a few hundred few thousand or we are shooting for 1200 people well that's actually not true we're shooting shooting for 1,500 people. We're shooting for 1,200 tickets, but we have to leave room for all the artists and all their people that are coming. Okay.

Awesome, man. Well, dude, thanks so much for being on Theology and Round, man. This is a joy to have you on and get to know you a little bit. Man, thank you so much. It's been great. I'll never let you go. Come let me in your arms. I wanna hold you close. I wanna hold you close.

I'll never let you go. Come let me in your arms I wanna hold you close