Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1098: Ruslan Interviews Preston about the LGBTQ Conversation

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

This is an episode hosted and produced by the Ruslan's Bless God Podcast Original Aired Date: 7/16/23 Almost a decade into his career, San Diego-based rapper Ruslan is Christian hip hop’s jack of all trades. When he isn’t writing and producing original music, he develops compelling content on Youtube, mentors up-and-coming artists, and runs his own podcast at Bless God Studios. Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. Today is going to be a different sort of podcast. Most of the time when I release an episode, it's usually me interviewing somebody else, or sometimes I'll do a solo podcast. This one is different. This is a recording of my friend Ruslan interviewing me. I was actually down at a studio in North County, San Diego a couple of weeks ago. And he interviewed me primarily on kind of LGBTQ related stuff. We talked about my forthcoming book, which releases tomorrow, actually, called Does the Bible Support Same-Sex Marriage? That was kind of the launch point of our conversation. We got into lots of other stuff related to LGBTQ related questions. and lots of other stuff related to LGBTQ related questions.

So this podcast is that recording. So it's Ruslan interviewing me. If you're not familiar with Ruslan, you should be. He is a widely popular YouTuber, Christian rapper, podcaster, and his show is really, really engaging. He does a great job both with the content production of it. He asks great questions. He's a great dialogue partner.

I've really, really enjoyed following his show and is really honored to be on his show as a guest. So I don't know how to introduce this. Please welcome to the show me or maybe Ruslan. Yeah, please welcome to the show for the first time, Ruslan interviewing Preston Sprinkle. Ladies and gentlemen, we have an amazing guest today. He is a New York Times bestseller. He might be the first New York Times bestseller I've had in here. He is a doctor, but not the medical kind. And he is my one-fourth Armenian brother.

All right. Without any further ado, we have Preston Sprinkles. Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. Thank you for being here. You've done a lot of work with this conversation around marriage, pronouns, the whole bit. And why? Why are you passionate about this topic? Can you put your mic just a bit closer? Yeah. So yeah i i would say i fell into it into the conversation about a decade ago and it was it began as simply a a scholarly pursuit like i just i wanted to figure out what

i believed about the topic primarily and same marriage and and so i started just writing and researching and you know and that led me into like dialoguing with a lot of people. And I, two things really quickly became kind of true in my journey. Number one, I, I, um, you know, grew up conservative Christian and, and, but I've always like tried to, you know, take my beliefs back to the Bible and say, what does the Bible actually say? I don't want to just rely on my upbringing. I want to know for myself what the Bible says. I want to weigh all the options. And when I did all that, I did end up landing really strongly on a traditional view of marriage.

To some people's chagrin, they saw that I was being very open-minded and they're hoping I'd be affirming and I went the opposite direction. But then through that, I also saw that like, I think the church has done largely a pretty horrible job

in how they've treated LGBT people. I just, I mean, dozens and dozens of just really horror stories from LGBT people who grew up in the church and just had, not just like a problem with the theological teaching of the church, but just relational stuff that I'm like, dude, that's just not Christian. You can hold to a traditional view and also be kind and loving and walk with people.

And so that just kind of led to this kind of like me being passionate about being gracious and empathetic while holding to a traditional view of marriage. And some people say you can do one or the other. You can't do both. So I spent the last 10 years trying to disprove that. That's great. A quote from Jackie Hill Perry said that Preston's lived experience with the community

along with the theological depth he holds makes this book a necessity regarding your last book, Does the Bible Support? Same-sex marriage. What does she mean by your lived experience? It sounds like you've built a lot of bridges and have really connected with this. Is that kind of what Jackie's getting at in this quote? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's been good scholarly work on the topic, obviously. So I would hope that I've contributed to that conversation as well in a healthy way. But I think what hasn't been done as much as somebody who has

a scholarly approach to the topic, is doing research, who is also listening to stories and and and you know walking with lgbt people and spending time and building friendships and stuff so that's been kind of what i've done from day one is is keep this uh keep this topic relational like i anytime i even because my natural default is theology right like i want to i want to go to the bible i want to do word studies i want to win debates and like that's my default. So the temper,

not temper, but like maybe do that more holistically. I've had to really make sure I'm constantly in a relationship with LGBT people

so I don't just, because it'd be easy for me to just keep it as some topic to argue rather than as the title of my last book. It's easy to dehumanize people when you forget

that there's people now do you think that the people are different from what some of us would say are the agendas by the activist because because michael dr michael brown kind of hit me to that and i was like oh that's good i never really thought about it that way there's the people and this is their lived experience and they're trying to figure it out and some of them could even be like look i might be wrong on this in terms of the affirming crowd and the whole bit but then there's like the visceral like hey you can't opt out of social studies for your first grader regarding our history right like this is happening in glendale right now where i'm not sure

if you're keeping up with the protest but they wouldn't allow the parents to opt out of elementary school teaching history and social studies around gay pioneers. And I'm just kind of like, huh? Was that when the Armenian crowd got up? Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying. You know how the Armenians get down, bro. I've been around Armenians, man.

You don't tell Armenians how to parent their kids. Right. So you know how the Armenians get down. I've been around Armenians, man. You don't tell Armenians how to parent their kids. Right. And so it's like I get the desire to humanize, but then there seems to be a disconnect between the humans and what seems to be the policy that is not always reflective of the humans.

100%. 100% agree. In fact, I would say in my experience and this is i guess anecdotal but based on you know a pretty large sample size the overwhelming majority of actual lgbt people are not represented well based by the very loud activist types i would say especially in the trans conversation like the loud activists the people you see on like what is a woman the documentary or or and those people exist for sure they're very loud very influential so i don't want to downplay the significance of some of the ideology and the pressure and the political

political stuff but i would say for every 10 trans people i talked to maybe one might have that kind of activist spirit some of them most of them are just trying to some are politically conservative in fact i've got several trans friends who are like registered Republicans, or they don't even believe in same sex marriage, or they, um, they don't believe they were born in the wrong body. They like one of my good friends would say, I have a neurological disorder and I just got kind of screwed by nature. And I don't know why I had this and transitioning was a last ditch effort to, to like, um effort to survive in their point of view. But they would turn around and say,

I'm horrified at how all this ideology is pressuring teenagers and all the teen stuff going on. So there's just such a wide diversity of just real human experiences among actual LGBT people. I would say, in my experience, a small percentage of them would resonate with kind of that loud activist spirit. Yeah. It also seems like the folks who are engaging with Christians tend to be a bit more charitable, right? Because if you're going to go and debate or discuss or have dialogue,

you're probably going to be a bit softer than the folks, you know, that are, that are driving, which is interesting because I think the one thing that the left does a great job and I'm using the left in a very general broad sense is infiltrating institutions, right? So you have folks in these institutions that are like able to impact policy and, and conservatives and Christians, like we're kind of busy doing this thing. And so that's awesome that you can engage with people. And again, they're not the same

as the folks who've infiltrated the institutions. Yeah. When it comes to the institutional level, public schools, colleges, universities, it is very far left. Yeah. Especially in any kind of social science, kind of humanities area, you know,

not so much maybe on the engineering departments, whatever, but like, and yeah, it's, you go on a university campus and you can, I mean, it's, yeah, it's going to be very far left. You know, I think that, and these are the people that are, you know, when they get out of these institutions, they're becoming influential people in policy and government and everything. And so that's, yeah, I think that are, you know, when they get out of these institutions, they're becoming influential people in policy and government and everything.

And so that's, yeah, I think that is, it ends up becoming a very one-sided issue. Yeah. What do you think the biggest misconception the average Christian has about the average person from that community? Oh, man, that's almost impossible to answer. that community oh man i that's that's almost impossible to answer um i would say an assumption kind of i guess what we're kind of talking about i mean assumption that all or most lgbt people are like this you know and then usually that perception is based on kind of whether they're yeah if they're watching a lot of like conservative news you know then they're they're going to usually highlight the extremes and again like you watched have you seen

a documentary what is a woman or so i've watched a lot of the clips and i keep starting it like when i put it on facebook twitter yeah me and my wife started it and then like we just okay we didn't get into it because it was like like yeah yeah yeah i've seen a lot of the this the good the good parts if you will. So it's like that. He would highlight kind of some of these really extreme views that, again, are out there. And they are like, you hear people talking like, do people actually believe this? Like, yeah, some people do, but the majority don't. So to answer your question, I think the biggest misconception is that when a lot of Christians think about LGBT people, especially

if they're not, they don't have a lot of people in their life that are LGBT, they have kind of a one size fits all perception. And then, and that community is not a monolith. It's not a monolith. 500,000 statistically, according to one survey, half a million gay and lesbian people believe in a traditional sexual ethic. Wait, how? By traditional sexual ethic, you mean? Yeah, they're religious. They're mostly Christians or maybe some might be, I don't know. Meaning they're against marriage?

Yeah. What? They're same-sex attracted, but they hold to a traditional view of marriage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just talked to a guy. He's a therapist here in san diego and he said he's probably counseled i think over 300 yeah people in this area alone that i have a religious commitment same attracted and for mostly theological reasons don't think it's

right to act on it so yeah it seems like there's an there's a tension that we have to hold between the institutional influences or the agenda which that like even that sounds like we're about to throw on the alex jones you know i mean and talk about the frogs being turned gay and all that stuff right so there's like this tension that we have to hold between the the people influencing the institutions and writing the policy versus the average day-to-day person living their life. And then to go deeper, the people who see this as, this is just who I am, this is what I'm attracted to, versus the people that are saying, oh, and you need to affirm this as

the same. And so if Christians, if we're not careful, we can slide into this like hyper paranoia. Yeah. That they're trying to get us. Right. You know? Absolutely. And I have to say that there aren't because there's definitely people that are trying to persuade.

Yeah. But I don't know if it's as common as we perceive it to be. I don't know if it's as like they're coming for your kids. Right. Even though those videos of them saying, you know, we're here, we're queer, we're coming for your children. There's those videos. But what do you make of all of that tension? That's probably the hardest thing in the ministry that I do.

I mean, this is my full-time job is helping the church engage this conversation. So it's been interesting. And I think helping Christians understand that you've got a lot of people probably in your church that are wrestling with their sexuality or gender on some level that are scared to death to even talk about it. And they're sitting in your pew. So before you go and fight this policy or that, this, like, let's focus first on like shepherding our people well. And I think that's where. So there was a big survey done. It's the same one that was by Andrew Marin

back about 10 years ago now. He did the largest at that time, sociological study done on the religious background of LGBT people. It's published in a book called Us Versus Us, great book. And that survey showed that 83% of LGBT people were raised in the church. Wow.

83%, that's crazy. Whoa in the church. Wow. 83%. That's crazy. Whoa, that's a lot. And by the time they turn 18, about 51% end up leaving. But the number, the main reasons why they say they left wasn't actually theological. It was all relational, you know? So all that to say like this whole like, it's that, those people out there, and then we're the church in here.

And people even talk about gay people as if that's synonymous with like a raging atheist who hates christianity or something it's like it's just it's way more that person does exist but there's a lot more diversity within that community yeah that's good what do you think from your conversations the lgbtq community's biggest misconception of Christians. Yeah. Yeah. That one's equally interesting. I think they think all Christians are like aggressively homophobic, homophobic, transphobic, uh,

like, um, are into like conversion therapy are, uh, all Christian parents will kick their kid out of the house if they come out as gay. And I, those stories exist for sure. And those people exist and it's, it's not a tiny number either, but in my experience, the overwhelming majority of Christians that I, at least I talked to that hold to a traditional sexual ethic, they're, they're, they've got huge hearts for, um, gay and lesbian people. And, and when their

kid comes out, they actually have responded relatively well, or they might do unintentional things that maybe are hurtful, but not intentional. Um, in fact, there's a story. Um, yeah, I might not tell it exactly. So I'll say the name, but it was a college president in California, Christian college president who was building a relationship with a gay activist, like a lobbyist trying to like, like one of those activists that was the aggressive type, right? Built a relationship. And man, he really broke through to him, but he says, Hey, why don't you come visit, visit our campus? And the guy was scared to death because he thought, literally, he thought that if he goes on a Christian college campus, Christians would be literally throwing rocks at him

trying to like beat him up with bats and stuff like he really so he was actually scared for his life wow but the president's like

just come check it out yeah and this is like college students dude they're like you're gay so what like it's not a big deal you know

and like so he came on campus and he was so utterly shocked that people were kind to him they were just nice they just didn't they kind of yawned when they found out oh so he's a gay lobbyist or whatever oh great you know and like so he came on campus and he was so utterly shocked that people were kind to him they were just nice that is didn't they kind of yawned when they found out oh so he's a gay lobbyist whatever like oh great you know whatever like what's your name what's your favorite food you know like um so i think that that that misperception to all christians are this you know just kind of westboro baptist types you know like they're just aggressively after gay and lesbian people. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I, you know, I, the folks in my life that are from that community that I've been close with,

I, I, we don't sit down and like, talk about their love life. Like we don't sit down and debate these things, you know? Like if they ask, I'll tell them what i think yeah which is what the bible says uh if they but if they don't ask like i'm not like prying and you know it's it's always it's more so about extending dignity and and just having relationship with with the person you know and and then i think i think there's a desire for representation on both ends. Like I think Christians want a healthier representation in those circles. And I bet they would want healthier representations amongst Christians and how to navigate that.

So it's interesting as I'm reflecting on that in my own life and how our brains naturally go to the most extreme caricature of the other side yeah you know instead of like well wait a minute what's the average person like does the average is the average person who's from this community going to be the guy that forces you to make the cake right or forces you to make the website? Or is that a smaller percentage that's trying to make an example because, you know? I think it's a smaller. I mean, I think it's a lot smaller percentage. I think it's a smaller.

I don't have data on that. For my experience, I would guess so. But it's obviously anecdotal. Do you think it's the, like, what do you think is feeding these kind of extreme assumptions on both sides? Is it the polarized kind of way that news media has done these days or like people believing extreme stories and thinking that's

a norm or where do you think that comes from or just lack of relationship with people on the other side i think that's probably first is lack of relationship and lack of knowing people and then i would say there's the convergence of different kind of worldviews and how those worldviews are articulated you know and and then i would say yeah i would say the media is definitely playing a huge role in i think language like language for example right like taking the word violence and changing it to mean something that it doesn't mean anymore like what like verbal violence yeah yeah like violence against lgbtq bodies i don't know of a lot of violence happening against anyone's bodies right you know like like it's such a rare but we'll take language and we'll

change it genocide yeah right we'll say language will change and then it can just kind of mean whatever you want it to mean. And I think that can, then you're going to have a, you're just going to have an overcorrection on both sides. Even being told you have a phobia. My wife has a real phobia of animals. Really?

Okay, the other day, she was outside walking something to the recycling and the neighbor's dog the neighbor came across to say like oh your recycling's full like let me know if you want to use mine and so as she's coming across her dog runs over and my wife jumps on the hood of her car oh my gosh yeah and and my little two-year-old season she's like laughing at mommy right that's a real ph, like a real phobia where your body, and so even taking language like phobia, that's a phobia. You have a phobia.

You know, like it instantly otherizes. Trauma, violence, these are words. So, yeah, I mean, you brought up genocide, so both of us have, you more more than a lot more than me but some some historical connection to the armenian genocide like people have been through actual violence or we have friends that are they came over from america uh on the wake of the rwandan genocide um they've been through trauma right they've experienced excessive violence so if that same word that's

used to describe that is now being used to describe, you know, for instance, if I give a talk and show what the Bible teaches that marriage is between a man and woman, I get accused of violence. We need a different word because those are two very different. It's almost, it's almost, is it, I mean, isn't it kind of insulting to the person that has been through an actual genocide that, wait, you're comparing my situation with what you went through? Hearing a viewpoint you disagree with? Yeah, I don't want to speak on behalf of other groups, but I have black friends that have said this. Like, hey, don't conflate this to civil rights.

They're not the same thing. But I can only talk about from my experiences. Like, I was with my dad last night, and we were talking about the pogroms of Baku, which is the reason why we came out here. And so I'm Armenian, but we grew up in Azerbaijan, which Turkey, Azerbaijan, it all kind of used to be the Armenian kingdom. And what happened was there was Arzis

that came back from Armenia saying that they were refugees and they were kicked out and so as a response to that the arzies and azerbaijan wanted to pull push all the armenians out and the soviet union gave all these regions a ton of like they're like autonomous like you're kind of like it looks like a nation state and so by giving them this autonomous nature they were allowed to mass export you know tons of armenians from azarbayama from which is where i'm from yeah and my dad uh was telling me that they had to borrow because because again the average armenianzi were friends, right? All in the same neighborhoods. My dad said they had to borrow their friends' police uniforms to get his dad and some other family members and put them in police uniforms and walk them through as they're trying to get to the train to get out of Baku. and walk them through as they're trying to get to the train to get out of Baku.

And in the process, they're talking Arzi instead of Russian or Armenian. And he said they're witnessing people get beat and killed and all this kind of stuff. That's a genocide. That's an attempt of a genocide. You're pushing, I don't know how many of us left Baku. So when I hear language like, you know, like, the qualifier is like,

do you think children should be allowed to get puberty blockers? And I'm like, no. You're transphobic. That's genocidal. I'm like, no, stop. Like, what are we talking about? Like, that's not the same thing. And so I, yeah yeah so i think that would

frustrate anyone like i think if because then it becomes an overcorrection because i'm like you guys are nuts like this is crazy right but again but it's hard to articulate that without coming across as you're now dehumanizing the whole group versus i have an issue with that ideology i have an issue with an ideology that takes words and makes them mean something else. To your point, has the church been fair to LGBTQ people? Probably not. You know, like probably haven't been the most gracious, probably haven't been the most charitable.

We've probably looked the other way when we know that there are people who are sleeping with their girlfriends, living together, looking at porn, being sexually immoral, and every other which way. But when it came to this issue, the churches probably came down really hard on this thing. So yes, there's been some double standards in this regard.

And so yes, I just feel like we're talking past each other. Yeah. It's kind of a conversation stopper when the other person's accused of being violent or transphobic. It's like there's no- Or a groomer. Or a groomer.

You know, when you come out and you're like, groomer, like, whoa, that's a serious accusation. Right. Because you don't engage in a good faith dialogue with somebody who is an actual groomer or something. It just ends the conversation. I mean, it seems to be getting worse. Do you think it's going to get better i mean you can't you can't keep throwing around all these huge terms and accusations and and it's got to level

out don't you think or i mean we're just going to keep getting more and more polarized um i think i think it's going to get worse before it gets better before it gets better and what's probably going to happen is through the election i think it's going to get worse i think all this is going to get more more and more and more and more polarized and then i think we'll probably i don't know level out somehow i don't know how you know but and i think you might see migration i think you might see people move you know hey if you're about this and you know you you want to transit you want your kid to transition like you're gonna have to figure out a way to get out of texas or get out of florida i think it's gonna get you know and say thing for people in california like if i if we start finding out like our tax dollars are

going towards you know injecting kids with puberty blockers like oh like how do we you know how do you navigate that conversation i so i in i think some of the extreme ideologies in specifically in the trans conversation, as it relates to youth, I think are going to be the thing that will end up, I don't want to say cannibalizing the, the, what do I want to say?

I think, I think it's gotten too far out of hand and you know, it has when most older gay and lesbian people are like, we're not into this. Like this is not. And, and in a lot of European countries countries which are more progressive than we are they're rethinking it all because they've had a good number of uh females who were like in their opinion were rushed through transitioning as a teenager and now paying the lifelong effects of that as young 20 something and we keep having these cases come up there was a big one a couple years ago in the uk that

what they actually won like they actually now lifted or they raised the age of puberty blockers because of this case because she sued the i think the royal court and won and so the whole gender like conversations is now like it's been kicked up so much now they're rethinking a lot of things same thing in scandinavian countries which are very progressive they're rethinking a lot of things so i think it's just a matter of time especially i mean money talks i mean you get enough lawsuits where people are getting sued for engaging in surgeries that they probably shouldn't have done on teenagers um so i i think my prophetic prediction please don't take this with the greatest i think in the next two to four two to five years there's going to be a scaling back on some of the extreme

yeah i think it'll come down to how how common is detransitioning because yeah which is yeah if that if that's because right now the data they have is they're saying oh it's like one percent yeah you know which is like it's it's it seems like more than that it's way it's you know and so but if it gets to like 50 percent 40 percent you know i think that's when people will be like okay like we we kind of overdid it on this on this whole thing and and it's it's it's so bizarre because it's all coming from a desire to be empathetic and to extend dignity and all this sort of thing. And it's just like inverted.

It's like an inverted virtue. That's sort of like, it's like quasi Christian almost. If I was a steel man, so I'm with you and we can even talk more about this, but you know, the, the, the, some of the, the trans conversation as it pertains to youth and medical or hormonal, hormonal, hormonally transitioning. Like, I think that's what makes me the most nervous. Like I'm very much not on board with that. And yeah, but I think, yeah, I think that, I think that youth,

the youth aspect of this is going to change kind of the nature of the conversation. But I don't, we'll see. Yeah. So you, I believe at some point came out on pronouns and that was controversial. And someone wrote an article, I covered, I don't remember who it was. So forgive me for not knowing the name, but some lady wrote an article and came down and said, Christians who use pronouns, like they basically were like-

Trampling on the blood of Christ. Yeah. I'm like, wait a minute. You know, that's a, that's a, I've, I, to be fair, I've never been in a situation where I'm presented with, do I use the pronouns? Do I not use the pronouns? Okay. I would venture off to say, I would probably just call that person by their name, whatever name they're asking me to call them. So unpack where you're at with the pronouns thing and how did you come to that conclusion?

There's been more recent articles on it, which is interesting. I published a book on the trans conversation called Embodied. And I have a whole chapter on bathrooms, pronouns, and so on. And that was two and a half years ago. And I've written on it before that. So this isn't, I don't know why it's flaring up now, but yeah, there's been some recent articles written that I think very much misrepresent or at the very least under-represent my actual argument. Let me begin by saying, I think it's complicated. I think this

is not a black and white, here's the right response, here's the wrong response. It is very complicated because language is complicated. And interacting in a secular society with a Christian worldview where language is shared social space between me and my worldview and this person who has a completely different worldview, the language is, that's a, that complex, the language is, that's complex. It's, that's a complex shared social space. So part of my goal is to help people to appreciate the complexity. So whichever, wherever you end up landing on it, be a little less dogmatic maybe, and be like, try to understand where somebody else is coming from. So I spent like 10 pages on this in my book. The first five pages is just that, like showing here's a good arguments for this side, good, good arguments for that side. You know, the bigger argument against pronoun use is, you know, you're

lying to them or you're, well, my friend says, I'm, I don't want to feed someone's delusion, you know, which I'm like, I get what you're saying. Maybe that phrase isn't, I'm never won someone to Christ by calling them delusional. But, um, uh, the other side is, uh,

you know, we're kind of meeting people where they're at, not demanding that they use language in a way that resonates with our worldview. And it's a, it's a give and take like, and there are certain, I'm a big fan of Orwell's, uh,

1984, where language is, when people start manipulating language and forcing people to use terms, I'm very concerned about that. I'm not naive to that. But on an interpersonal level, I have landed on the view, having thought through it, that I will, in an attempt to meet someone where they're at,

use the pronouns they want. Every single trans, so let me say this, every single trans person that I know in my life that came to Christ and ended up either detransitioning or some weren't fully transitioned anyway, who now are fine using people using their pronouns that match their biological, like now they're, you know, but identify with their biological.

Hands down, every single one said, if that was forced on me when I first came to Christ or even not yet coming to Christ, I would have ran the other way. I needed space to wrestle, to be on a journey, to process this new way of thinking, you know? And Christians that didn't even go there, they just used my pronouns.

I wanted to be around them. And then we walked through Christ together and my discipleship started to mature. And then I ended up saying, yeah, maybe I should use pronouns that match my biologics. So pragmatically, I can make a really good argument that I think it's better in most cases to use someone's pronouns. And I don't think it's necessarily lying to somebody unless I am saying, I believe you like, so if I meet a biological female, they want me to refer to them as they, them, or he, him. I, if I'm in relationship, I don't want to give the impression that I actually agree with their view of themselves, but I want to say, okay, here's,

I believe pronouns should match your biological. That's my worldview. It's what I believe, you know, hope you're okay with me believing that now as a gesture of hospitality, I will, this is obviously very important for you. So I will use your pronouns, but I don't want to give the impression that I am fully agreeing with everything they believe about themselves. So, and if they demand that I do agree with it, that's not, no relationship can be healthy if one party demands you agree with everything they believe, especially if it's something that's not accurate, not scientific.

So anyway, that's the short version of a very long complex. I think the complicated part is even the non-binary. I was talking to a friend of mine and we have a mutual acquaintance uh that i don't really speak to anymore and he they were telling me that they use this like we they oh yeah language that's hard you know and he's like he told we're on our way and he's like wait who are you bringing with you and he's like no bro pronouns and he's like oh my bad you know it's like like if you're using this like we they you know it just it almost becomes incoherent at times to even engage in a yeah

you know like like if i've like whenever you read an article about someone that identifies as non-binary and you're like wait they like what like hold on and it's like oh no that's the person's yeah pronouns it's and i i don't the one of the biggest questions is how much of this is like medical and scientific and how much is social and well some people use the word trendy well i'll so you know my daughter was in a theater class a few years ago, you know, a bunch of 13 year old girls, you know, and I think she said of the 15 kids, like 13 of them had alternative pronouns.

Okay. Wow. Now, according to the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the latest edition, 2013, 0.014% of people had a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, like a clinical diagnosis. It's pretty rigorous.

Like they have to match, I forget five or six of 10 criteria to be diagnosed with this psychological condition. So when you have like, you know, 50 to 75% of say junior high girls using, using alternative pronouns, do they all experience clinically diagnosed gender dysphoria i probably unlikely probably unlikely is it could it be socially

in certain environments contagious call it trendy call it maybe just social social influences at work i mean you gotta have your head in the sand to say, Oh no, this is all just. So a part of me is kind of like, it is difficult. I don't think especially they, them will catch on as kind of this normal societal thing. It just, it doesn't got it's etched in the design of creation, male and female creation. Our sources are binary. Okay. Um, personalities aren't binary, but it's biological is binary. So I, I just, I don't think it's going to my opinion last very long i went down the rabbit hole of the scholarly data we have

on this specific conversation and from what i read is that there's not a lot to support this idea that it's genetic. Meaning that if you look at the brain with people who identify with the opposite gender, that there's nothing in their brain matter that shows that their brain is the opposite gender. Because if this was real and objective and scientific, then you would take someone that's a trans man and their brain would look like or aspects of his brain would look like a man's brain. And the only time that happens is after hormone replacement treatment. Does the Bible support same-sex marriage? That's a question that many people are wrestling with today.

And there's, you know, people who hold passionately to different answers to this question. Now, most dialogues about same-sex marriage, they end with divisiveness and confusion instead of clarity and a better understanding of the other person's position and even a better understanding of your own position. understanding of your own position. This is why I wrote a book titled, Does the Bible Support Same-Sex Marriage? 21 Conversations from a Historically Christian Perspective, which comes out in August this summer. So what I do in this book is I first talk about how Christians should even go about having a profitable conversation about contentious issues. I really want us to cultivate a better posture in how we even go about defending our points of view or trying to refute others. I then lay out a biblical theological case for the historically Christian view of marriage. And then for the rest of the book, I take what I see as the top 21 arguments for same-sex marriage.

And I respond to each one in a way that's both thoughtful and thorough. each one in a way that's both thoughtful and thorough. Some of these arguments are, you know, since some people are born gay, then God must allow for same-sex marriage. Or, you know, the word homosexual was only recently added to the Bible. Or the traditional view of marriage is harmful to gay and lesbian people. And many other arguments that I wrestle with in this book, does the Bible support same-sex marriage? So if you're looking for a theologically precise and nuanced approach to these arguments, one that doesn't strawman the other view to make

it look bad, then I would encourage you to please check out my book, Does the Bible Support Same-Sex Marriage? You can order it now on Amazon or wherever books are sold. So it's like they have to get on testosterone and inject themselves to then develop the characteristics and the brain differentiation. But pre, what is the therapy called? Hormone replacement therapy. There's no brain difference of a trans brain versus a non-trans brain. Well, it is complicated. I have a whole chapter on, it's called The Brain Theory.

In my book on trans called Embod complicated. I have a whole chapter on, it's called The Brain Theory, in my book on trans called Embodied. I have a whole chapter. And I spent more time researching for that chapter than any other chapter I've ever written in my entire life because there's been data for... Well, it's linked to the question that's a hundred-year-old scientific question on do men and women have different brains?

Even that, there's general differences in things things but you don't the the consensus seems to be that our brains in general are not sexually dimorphic like our bodies are yep um there are general patterns of difference but they're kind of based on stereotypes too like there's definitely stereotypes but there's also the reality of just testosterone. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. That affects your, yeah. So if you have a guy and the average man is walking around with 10x the testosterone of the average woman, which is, if you have a healthy dose of testosterone, that's what it is. That's a huge difference in terms of how you're going to navigate, operate, your degree of competitiveness, your aggression, your strive, like all of that stuff is going to be different. Now, to your point, how much can that be shown on a brain scan? Apparently from the article I saw that they see it, the brain changing post

the hormone therapy. Yeah. It's hard because there's been a lot of studies done on it, and they're all can be very highly politicized. It's almost like you have to read 10 studies and get a scientist who doesn't have a dog in the fight, which is pretty rare. I think the overreach in both their methodology and like that, is this post-transition, post-histostrone? Or even, you know, our brains are elastic. Like New York cab drivers, there was a study done on New York cab drivers that their hippocampus, I think, is bigger than the average person because life actually reshapes your brain and restructures your brain. So it's kind of a chicken and egg situation.

Like did living in a trans identity, is that because of your brain and restructures your brain. So it's kind of a chicken and egg situation. Like did living as a trans in a trans identity, is that because of your brain or did that actually reshape your brain? And they almost, it's like almost impossible to tell. So I think people are starting to back off some of the brain studies because it's just, you can't really prove much from it. Yeah. Now it sounds like a lot of what your work does is just advocate for extending dignity and empathy to people from this community. Is that a fair way? I would say half of what I do is that. The other half is theologically defending, articulating, responding to questions around same-sex marriage and same-sex sexuality. And your background in terms of your doctorate is in New Testament studies, right?

Yeah. So your background is in that. And so half of it is, hey, we need to extend empathy and love to these people. We need to not otherize them and discard them. And then the other half is almost like an apologetic for a Christian ethic. Yes, yes.

And I'm not a debater. I'm not an apologist like you are, but I get questions all the time. So in fact, the book that just came out or is coming out, Does the Bible Support Same-Same Marriage? It is me responding to all the counter arguments to the traditional view.

What are some of those counter arguments? There's 21 in the book. 21 in the book. What are the most popular? We don't have to go over all 21. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the most popular ones is that when the New Testament writers, specifically Paul, prohibits same-sex sexual relationships, the only kind of relationship that was available in the first century were relationships of power and abuse and older men on younger boys.

He's really condemning pedophilia pedophilia condemning yeah uh what is it a monogamous covenantal relationship right right yeah um that one is it used to be popular among scholars till they realize the data doesn't really support it um so but i still hear it as if they did not have monogamous uh relationships in antiquity well and to be fair when it comes to male same relationships if you look at greco-roman literature um you look at the environment the overwhelming majority were between men of power differences rape abuse master slave you know older man younger boy um the majority are but there's exception well number one there's exceptions to that number two female same relationships were the opposite it was between

adult consenting adults so like in romans one paul leads with female same relationships and then says likewise the men so the fact that he also prohibits female same relationship shows that we can't be exclusively thinking of domineering kind of abusive and there's nothing in paul's language there's he never he isn't he isn't concerned about age differences when he talks about these relationships so yeah and then i've also heard oh and it's romans one and he says it's shameful yeah in the same way that it is shameful for a man to have long hair that's the word that they're. So he's not saying it's a sin. He's just saying, eh, it's shameful. That's the argument I've heard. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Because it does bring in nature when it comes to long hair in 1 Corinthians 11. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one argument. Another one is that, you know, one of the ones that comes up is like, you know, well, what about like polygamy in the Old Testament

or like this whole idea of a biblical marriage is like, biblical marriage is kind of super messy all over the Bible, you know? So like, why, you know, why pick on this one or whatever? But it's kind of like a red herring a little bit. It's kind of like, well, it's messy everywhere. So, but I'm like, well, yeah, but if you go back to creation, Genesis 1 and 2, yes, even polygamy was a departure well it's messy everywhere so but i'm like well yeah but if you go back to creation genesis one and two yes even polygamy was a departure from the creational design that's jesus's point in

matthew 19 right right from divorce was allowed or whatever you know because of the hardness of your heart but from the beginning it was not so like jesus's ethic goes back to the creational design so that's what we need to do follow j Jesus as an example. So love is love is an argument. Probably the most popular one is isn't the traditional view of marriage harmful toward gay and lesbian people? And that's probably the longest response because I wanted to look at

both the logic of the argument and also even like sociologically because people often cite studies to try to prove that. and also even like sociologically, because people often cite studies of, just to try to prove that. Saying traditional view of marriage. I believe in a one man, one woman relationship covenant. Everything else is out.

Friendship benefits are out. Being married in your heart is out. Telling God, telling you, God saying it's okay for you to sleep with your girlfriend is out. All of it is out. Porn, is out. All of it is out. Porn, masturbation, all of it is out. And they say that holding to a one man, one woman marriage is harmful towards same-sex marriage. Yes.

It's harmful towards somebody who is gay, is attracted to the same thing, and is trying to follow Jesus. Like somebody who's exploring Christianity, is in a Christian environment, and is trying to follow Jesus. Like somebody who's exploring Christianity, is in a Christian environment, maybe they're committed to Jesus, that if they're told that they cannot marry somebody and have sex with somebody that matches their orientation, then that's harmful. And I give several responses to that. One of the things it kind of does, though,

is it kind of resurrect though is it is it kind of um it kind of resurrects purity culture type stuff that like until i get married and have like i just can't be a happy person a fulfilled person so um so i i kind of address that a little bit in that argument that um you, because to say it's harmful means let's just broaden that logic out. It means if I'm not married to the person I desire, I'm not, I can't live a flourishing, happy life. Now, purity, we did, we definitely sent that message loud and hard throughout purity culture and we messed a lot of people up. Um, so yeah. So, and the main question isn't, does this seem like a harmful thing?

The main question really is, is it true? Did the creator who designed us to be sexual beings, what is his design? And how do we know? So try to take us back to scripture. Yeah. What do you feel is, do you think the argument just strictly from natural law is one of the strongest arguments? Obviously, what Jesus says is ultimately the final. Yeah.

You know what I mean? The argument. Romans 1. Hard to argue with Romans 1 when there's specific acts being discussed. Right? disgust right but i think just the practicality of us reproducing as a species to continue our species sounds like a fairly straightforward hey natural law just points us in this direction and that seems like the strongest argument and i have a rebuttal to it that i'll share with you later but what do you think about that just just on the surface so a lot of catholic scholars have

done great work yeah i was thinking st thomas aquinas yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and and um one more recently um ryan t anderson is a conservative conservative catholic scholar who argues for traditional marriage without quoting the bible like it's all natural law and it's it's a good it's a good argument i think for me um i do think that special revelation resonates with general revelation that God's revealed design and the word will also resonate with creation. We see this in wisdom literature, especially where you're drawing on creation. You know, go to the ant, you sluggard. You can see God has wired creation in a way to reflect his design. sluggard you can see he got his wired creation in a way to reflect his design so i agree with all that for me in terms of like an argument i do see reliance simply on natural law there's too

many exceptions to the rule that make it difficult i think for an argument because i think a lot of the intelligent um more progressive people that i talk to, you know, they always point out exceptions, you know, that like, you know, infertility, marriage and old age, you know, or like, should we even have contraceptions, you know? So there's always these kind of like exceptions to the rule that I think can, yeah yeah they just kind of throw a wrench sometimes if you're relying on natural law solely as as an argument yeah yeah not not solely but just just i mean just looking at the design of the body parts yeah you know and just right yeah looks like this was designed in a way oh and a baby comes yeah you know like and obviously not every time the act happens a baby has to come but it's pretty straightforward the only rebuttal i've really heard to that obviously there's the you

know what you pointed out which is like well what about old age what about this well it's the plumbing is still the same even if there's not a baby that comes with that but i've heard like well it's not in nature all the time there's these animals that exhibit these other things yeah and i'm like yeah but that doesn't humans are different are we gonna take our sexual ethic from watching animals right because animals do all kinds of weird stuff and some animals eat their own poop you know there's all kinds of bizarre things that happen with animals so i've heard that as like a yeah but there's these kind of animals that animals that exhibit this as well you know and i'm like yeah but that's a little

different than humans you know know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we can get into details. I probably don't even want to wander into like specific, yeah, like sexual acts or whatever. Sure. But yeah, so I would agree that, yeah, the human body does reflect God's design as revealed in scripture that resonates with the traditional view of marriage. It is those exceptions to the, yeah. Yeah.

So let me ask you this, and we're going to go to some questions from the Patreon community here. I see the chat. So if you guys got questions, feel free to drop them in. How does a Christian engage with the idea of marriage, right? Because some Christians have taken a more libertarian approach of like,

well, this doesn't really affect my marriage. So what does it matter if they're allowed to legally get married? So in terms of the legal question, the legal question, right? And then there's also others that have been like, yeah, well, we took our hand off this and allow this to happen. And now they're trying to teach to first and second graders in the social studies class the history and how this is the same as heterosexual marriage right so where do you land on that is it like do you take a more libertarian approach of like yeah it doesn't really affect christians yeah let them get married or do you say yeah but when do we open the doors to this or like it's not optimal to allow this legally to happen. What would you say?

My response is both wet cement and maybe complex. So I'm not going to have a real black and white passionate response. Cause I think, I think it really deals what we would first need to deal with. What does it mean to be a Christian living in a secular society? What is our role, our influence in living in a secular society? What is our role, our influence in living in a secular society? I think sometimes, are we trying to take America back for God? Was it ever for God? Or as I say, are we exiles in Babylon? And when Babylon does Babylonian things,

are we kind of like, well, it's Babylon. What do you expect? I would lean more to the latter. To the latter, yeah. At the same time, I do believe that God's created design is good for creation. So when creation, when nations, when peoples depart from the creator's design, that will not go well, generally speaking. So do I think legalizing marriage is actually good for a society? No. Did I freak out when it was legalized in 2015? Not really. I kind of yawned in a sense because I'm like, it's hard enough to live out my Christian faith with the spirit of God. People aren't even coming with a Christian ethic. Like it's not shot. Maybe that's what it is. It's not shocking to me when secular people live out a secular ethic. Yes. Um, so that's the tension I battle. And yet

I do think God's, the creator's design is good for creation, but I assume most of creation won't follow that, you know? So what do you, I would you i would love because i mean you you think more about that's intersection intersection politics and faith and stuff so i i oh man i can be convinced either i did i uh i can so let me say i can never vote for like something that doesn't resonate with god's design absolutely that's yeah yeah well i i'm in california and the fact that in 2008 california banned it when we voted for it which is really this is a trip

check this out we banned same-sex marriage in 2008 is that prop 8? prop 8 yeah yeah and we allowed

we voted in the a teenager's right to have an abortion without their parents' knowledge in the same year? the same year the same year the same vote so talk about how wild california was at that time right like we're okay with 13 14 15 16 year

olds having abortions and the parents not needing to know right versus uh but we were against this as a state right which is really interesting so i voted against both i was like this is both bad it's both evil um i think there's a tension legally speaking if two consenting adults in a pluralistic secular society want to be together yeah uh should they not have the rights to i don't know file jointly on their taxes should they not have have the right to bedside death rights or whatever? There's certain legalities, I don't know, having a retirement plan that can be taken. You know what I mean?

Like all those things. I think there's a precedent to say, hey, I can't let my faith dictate the legality of other people's relationships. That doesn't seem right, right? And I would acknowledge that. I don't think that's fair to folks in that type of environment, what they want to do within their personal lives. And then I go, yeah, but you know what Jesus said, you know?

It's like, well- Yeah, right. Like try to force a Christian ethic on them. Yes, yes. Now, in terms of like calling it marriage, I definitely think that that's a bit tricky you know but i also can see the argument that like we've called a lot of goofy things marriage you know there's a lot of folks that shouldn't be getting married that are getting married um but in their natural state they

could at least come to jesus and then continue staying married and work on their marriage and that could bring immense glory to god at some point. Whereas if someone's in the same marriage, there's no real room for that. Right. And then it gets even more complicated. If there's kids involved and all, you know what I mean? Then I'm just like,

holy moly, man, it's just layers on layers. So I, I would, I would tend to be of the position that there should be some legal protections allowed while saying, let's not call this marriage because that's not what this is.

That seems reasonable to me. I would probably lean libertarian on most questions that deal with ethical questions. But yeah, with marriage, we are now dealing with something that is primarily, first and foremost, a profoundly theological institution. This is where I would prefer that the state would stay out of the marriage conversation. Yeah, but the state doesn't. And to be fair, the state rewards families and it rewards having kids to certain degrees. There's definitely an incentive structure,

whether it's taxes or whatever. So that's where I go, I just go, I mean, that's complicated, you know? So like, if the state is going to be involved, what should they be rewarding? In my opinion, they should be rewarding people staying married longer, having more kids, you know? Like, there should be practical things

that we should be rewarding if the state's going to reward anything. That's kind of how I would like to have it. So for you, it's just calling it marriage it mayor like call it a civil union and then yeah which is where i thought we were all at i thought everyone was on the same page joe biden obama hillary i think everybody was like they got civil unions they'll be fine right and then all of a sudden it's like no it has to be marriage and it's like okay so now you're saying it's the same it's not the same don't let's not call it the same it's not the same it's not it's not the same you know so that's that's kind of how i look at it since you're

some of the more radical uh feminists many of whom are also lesbians would almost agree that like they see marriage as a whole a heteronormative institution anyways like why are we fighting to be crammed into this conservative institution anyway? Let's just do our thing. I don't get it. I really don't get it. Again, I think it goes back to that line between acceptance and affirmation. I could accept you. I can love you.

I can have you over for the barbecue. We can go do activities together. We can hang out. But there's a line between, like, I accept these things about you versus versus like, I now have to affirm these things about you. If I go to my family's house and they have a couple too many drinks, I could accept that. I'm Armenian for crying out loud.

You know, it came from the Soviet Union. Like they drink, but I got to affirm that, you know, I got, I got to go out of the way and say, yeah,

you should have another glass of wine while I'm sitting there not drinking anything. Like it doesn't, it doesn't make any sense to me. Right. And so like, if I and so like if i don't if i don't affirm everything about my own family what makes you think i'm gonna affirm yeah this

this this thing that what you want to call a marriage what does that look like like for you would you not refer to say a same couple was husband and husband or would you not use marital language or is that would you just concede and say well this is the secular society we're living in so i'm just gonna even though i don't agree with it i'll just kind of oh that's a good way i think it goes back to pronouns right like i i would probably say partner okay partner right i don't know if i would say husband that's an interesting question i've never really thought about again i haven't been presented with a lot of these dilemmas and how to practically deal with them you know i think a lot of them involve a lot of gray area that's what i think we all should appreciate that we're dealing with this complex

interaction christians living in a secular society yeah yeah and so yeah i don't know i think yeah i think i think it's i think it's interesting what do you what do you make of the affirming theology? And Zach always says, a little bit of Jesus is better than no Jesus, right? Like if there's a little bit of Jesus they're hanging onto by a thread, then it's better than no Jesus. But then the argument could be made that it's a counterfeit Jesus.

Is it the Jesus of the Bible, right? If you're holding onto this Jesus that allows you to do anything and live any kind of way, right? Is that the authentic Jesus? this Jesus that allows you to do anything and live any kind of way. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Is, is that the authentic Jesus? That's another,

I, I go back and forth on that. I would probably lean more towards the latter that, um, having a distorted, if it's a distorted view of Jesus. No. So I want to make a distinction here between like,

I know people who are affirming, they affirm same marriage, but everything else about their theology, their life would feel very just almost evangelical, you know? They talk about the gospel, they talk about repentance. They just have a disagreement on this ethical question. Now that the first one would say, this is a significant disagreement. This is chapter 20 in my book. Is this an agree to disagree issue? And I say, I don't think it is. I think this is a very important part of the storyline of scripture is the basic essence of what marriage is. So it's not a minor disagreement. Um, but if somebody

says, I get this question a lot of parents saying my, my kids affirming, um, and they want to go the only kind of church they can go to is an affirming church. Is that a good thing? You know, and I want to make a distinction if it's, if it's, if it's a kind of church where Jesus is hardly mentioned, it's just a social club. There's no residue of the gospel at all. I almost see that as more dangerous, better to not. Yeah.

Versus maybe an environment where they are hearing the word of God. They're not getting just affirming messages every Sunday, you know. But I say, okay, that I think is probably better than no church at all. But to be in a church where the gospel is just either so distorted, I think that can almost be worse than not being a church at all, personally. But I could change my view tomorrow i don't know yeah i got a buddy that i'm gonna have on that more or less affirms all the essentials of christianity and the early creeds but he is affirming yeah i'm just like i don't know what to do with you man like i don't know what i categorize now i think this is a parallel so

forgive me if i'm sounds like i'm all over the place, but I think someone that doesn't affirm Jesus as God Almighty is following a counterfeit Jesus, right? So if you're like, Jesus was a lowercase G God. Jesus was created. Jesus is not God eternal. Jesus is not Yahweh, right? I think I go, ooh. That's tricky because we see Jesus taking on all the attributes of God Almighty repeatedly.

You see Hebrews 1 refer, in the Psalm that Hebrews 1 is referring to. It's Yahweh talking to Yahweh, right? And so we see this. So I would go, man, if someone is not affirming Jesus as Yahweh, they're probably following a counterfeit. And I would hope that they would repent and land in the right place. So that's where I go with this issue. It's a tricky one because you might be following the Jesus of God, like the Jesus is God Almighty. But this is such a huge kind of distinction that people make with their theology and it becomes tricky. And again, anecdotal, but like in my experience, when evangelical churches shift their view on marriage, in most cases, in many cases, at least, I've seen they do. And I'm not a slippery slope guy.

I don't like always using the argument. In this case, it is, again, anecdotally, mostly true that other, I would say, important theological commitments end up kind of going by the wayside in my experience. I've seen people start from this point and then get to the point of, yeah, the bodily resurrection even happened? I don't know. Maybe it was a metaphor. You know, like, oh, okay.

We've completely deconverted off the rails. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've completely deconverted off the rails. Yeah. Yeah. Man.

I don't know how, like, they consist like the, again, not trying to use a slippery slope as an argument, but just as a logical deduction. Like, I think, I don't know how you can affirm marriage and not also affirm polyamory more than, you know, multiple partners, consensual in a marriage, if it all comes down to harm and consent. And if this is a consenting threesome, foursome or whatever, um, what makes you've already said that when the two become one flesh, it doesn't need to be male and female. Why does it need to be two anymore? You know? So I, and people, I used to say this a few years ago and people were like, ah, slippery slope. You just fear monger. I'm like, but now it's like, I'm getting the same people saying, Oh, I'm having,

what we were going through with the LGBT conversation five years ago, we're now going through with polyamory because we're getting throuples and, you know, people coming to church now and claiming this as an orientation and this is how God made all the same kind of arguments. So. Yeah. I, I, um I see that way more prevalent. I see that a lot more prevalent, especially in the men's rights spaces. I don't know if you're familiar with the red pill and all that.

I mean, there's a lot of dudes out there that feel entitled because they think they're a high value man to have multiple partners and that's that's i mean it's borderline going mainstream is that like andrew tate andrew tate yeah yeah andrew tate um you know and then there's like this weird overlap with islam you know because you could have in certain of islam you could have up to four wives and so there's some overlap there but no there's a lot of guys that are like yeah i mean i i feel like i can take care of multiple women what's the big deal you know and that's definitely being yeah more and more mainstream i i got a buddy an acquaintance who was in a situation where they attempted that because he found out that the person he was with

was um you know had same attractions and so they attempted this like scenario and it just blew up and was really really really really bad that's the most common scenario that i've seen is usually like a heterosexual oftentimes it's been a guy and uh his wife or girlfriend comes out as bisexual and says i need the same partner to. So it becomes kind of a same relationship and then an opposite. Then it can kind of go anywhere, many different directions from there. But yeah. I think those aren't going to end well.

But let me bounce this off of you. This is an interesting one. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. So there are parts of the world, I think GotQuestions did an article on this. So this is not me like pontificating off of just but got questions which is a fairly conservative site uh had an article about polygamy and how there are parts of the world where polygamy is legal and there is a

gentleman who has multiple wives gets saved saved, and the question becomes, does he need to end those? And how does he end those? And how does he, is it the first one that's the only one? Or is it his favorite? Right? Like, is it the one where the kids are the smallest? Right? How do you navigate that conversation?

And I got questions. I should really look this up to make sure I don't misquote them. Um, but got questions basically landed at like, it's kind of a question of conscience for, for him and his environment. Can he financially provide for all of them? Are they all okay? And, and yeah, what do you think of that? Why you answer that? I'm going to look it up just to make sure I'm not butchering your questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually had a friend of mine, missionary, who was a missionary to Northern Nigeria back in the 60s.

And apparently, I don't know if it's still the case, but it was a very, it was a polygamist society. And he faced this exact question. He had people coming to Christ who had multiple wives. And yeah, so he had to wrestle with it. One of the things he said is that what makes this complex is it's so etched into the fabric of society.

You're not dealing with just some individual living in some sinful life. You're dealing with the whole fabric of society. And you mentioned it in passing. It's not that he's just having, it's not like primarily even a sexual thing. It's a power thing. It's also a prestige thing. It's also an economic thing.

He's got these women who are being supported financially. And if he just dropped them all, you would have this huge other issue. So the mediating position they took is, I think they worked towards, I don't know if it was like an instant, like here's the demand, but it was working towards him having one of his wives

as a sexual partner. So he's being sexually faithful to her, abiding by a sexual ethic, but not divorcing the other women, but just keeping them, like supporting them, you know? So they're still living in the house, they're doing household chores and everything.

Because that was another thing he said, oddly enough, in his experience, it was the first wife who asked for another wife because in a very patriarchal kind of culture, she had all this housework, all this stuff, and she just wanted help. She also wanted someone to talk to because in that culture,

it wasn't like the husband's coming home listening to her feelings and so it wasn't it was complicated man it was it was so you have to understand the cultural and societal complexity of it but i i think that was probably the approach i would i would take yeah trying to balance being faithful to the Christian ethic, but also- So be intimate with one wife. Yes. And who do you pick? I don't-

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's look at what God questions us. So this is a trip. So let me show you the question real quick. This is, I wasn't expecting this answer. I think they're more progressive than you are. And God questions is extremely conservative. If a man has multiple wives and became a Christian,

what is he supposed to do? So if a man has multiple wives and became a Christian, what is he supposed to do? If polygamy is illegal where he lives, he should do whatever is necessary to submit to the law while still providing for his wives and children. If polygamy is legal, but he is convicted that it is wrong, he should divorce all but one wife.

Again, he must not neglect providing for all of them and their children. So the divorce he's still providing, he's just technically not married. Okay. Yeah. They are his responsibility. If polygamy is legal

and he has no conviction against it, he can remain married to each of his wives, treating each one with love, dignity, and respect. A man who makes this decision would be barred from church leadership, but it cannot be said that he is an explicit violation

of any command in scripture. Yeah, I disagree with that last part. But it cannot be said that he is in violence. So you would disagree with that? I would disagree with that because I think people take kind of a, and I don't want to assume this about the author or whatever, but like they, they, they take kind of a flat view of scripture of like, well, it's allowed in the old Testament. So,

um, and it's not outrightly condemned in the new Testament except for, you know, it can't be an elder, right. For Timothy Titus. But again, I think the allowance in the Old Testament was a departure from the creational design. And Jesus, under the new covenant, takes us back to the creational norm. So rather than looking for, is it commanded, like as in thou shalt not, we also need to look at just God's design as a whole,

rather than is it sin, not sin, is there a command, is there a chapter, verse? Clearly, Jesus- What is it sin, not sin, is there a command, is there a chapter, verse? Yeah. Clearly, Jesus- What is the virtue ethic being preached, not what is the letter of the law? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. So I think Jesus, I think the command isn't in the form of a command in the Greek language specifically, but when Jesus takes us back

to creation saying one man, one woman, one flesh union, I think that's the standard, you know? Well, you're more conservative than got questions, my friend. Uh, I think that's, that's the standard, you know? Well, you're more conservative than got questions. My friend got questions out here saying, look, you ain't

convicted. I've got P I've got, I'll get back to back emails accusing me of being too conservative, being too liberal. Like it's, it's so funny. I'll hear assumptions about what people think. I believe I still have people to this day that think I affirm marriage. I've written two or three books saying not that, you know? So anyway, it's funny. So for my audience that thinks I'm going liberal there, there you go. Yeah. It's an interesting, it's an interesting question though, right?

It is. It's really good. Yeah. Okay. We're going to go to some of these questions and then I want to ask you an offline question. That's probably way too spicy for YouTube. Okay.

If I have a Christian or Catholic LGTV people, we call them, we say LGTV because we can't say LGBTQ on live on YouTube. Is that why you do that? I was wondering why. Yeah, and I have an affinity for LGTV TVs. All of our TVs are LG TVs. I did not know that. That makes a lot of sense. I was like, how do you not know the acronym when I'm listening to your podcast?

We speak in code, yeah. LG TV people, what books should I direct them for the softest approach? Or what is the best scripture to be gracious but firm in stance? but firm in stance. I mean, I, I, I, I abhor self-promotion.

It's okay. But my, I would say other people, if I, if I can get in this head of how other people answer this question, I think my book people to be loved is exactly, it's exactly that it, it,

it's exactly that. It's a theological exploration. So it's like 70% like working through the text, but woven throughout is loads of stories that we've shared. You know, I mean, the whole first chapter, people thought I was going to affirming because I was talking about gay people committing suicide in the church

and we need to do bed, all this stuff. And then I said, okay, let's look at what scripture says. So yeah, it has been kind of a go-to, uh, book for people under that category. That's good. Yeah. That's good.

Okay. Well, there you go. You guys, Matthew, pick up, pick up the latest. Uh, what, what was that book called? Uh, people to be loved. Why is not just an issue is the subtitle. That's good. That's good.

Okay. Uh, this is a question I have for you. Not just an issue is the subtitle. That's good. That's good. Okay. This is a question I have for you. What do you make of Andy Stanley being ambiguous on this question and seemingly saying some things privately with multiple, we've had multiple elders come out and say, this is what he said privately. He's open to doing one of these marriages.

But publicly, he he says don't take people's church from them by coming out as affirming you got to be wise and it seems like he's kind of playing both sides and then seemingly there's some affirming theology around kids that come out in the church seemingly i don't want to speak too firmly. And so it seems like he kind of wants to play both sides of it. I don't think that serves the people of his church well if he's on this ambiguous position. And I don't think it serves that community well if they're not sure exactly where he lands on it.

What say you? So let me give a few qualifications up front. Number one, I don't think I've read more than 20 pages from Andy Stanley book. I maybe listened to a couple messages. So I don't follow him. From what I've heard and seen, from what I have seen, I have a lot of respect for him as a Christian leader, as a communicator. He's off the chart from what I've seen. And I've known people that have known him personally.

And some of the criticism he's gotten, I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm like, I don't know if he quite said that. I think you're taking that in the worst possible direction. So I find myself, in my heart at least, kind of like, well, maybe more standing up for him. Even the recent clip that went around, that two-minute clip from something he said

about gay people having more faith than other. I'm like, if I look at the heart of what he's trying to say there, I'm like, I probably agree with

what he's trying to say there. If a gay person is coming to a church they know is not affirming, that shows a lot of faith. Yeah. That's kind of, because I could hear it that way.

I understand what you're saying. And I think he was even saying like, look, if I ask for volunteers and he didn't make a distinction affirming or not, he's like, I'll ask the church and I get hardly anybody. And I'll ask gay people and I get lines out the door, people don't want to serve. And I think it was almost like this, like, Hey, you people who are all, you know, criticizing gay people, like, well,

you just step it up. Cause they're the ones jumping in. Anyway, I, I, I, in my best reading of that i was like okay i i i think he's saying a lot of things here that i wouldn't disagree with and um so having said all that i i think he's i i i think it could be absolutely more clear. And I've been around this conversation enough. It feels like so many people I know that were raised conservative, and then their eyes are open to how the church has really messed up gay people, and then they go affirming.

I'm not saying he's that. I don't know enough. I'm not saying he will be that. I'm saying he looks exactly, he looks like he's that. I don't know enough. I'm not saying he will be that. I'm saying he looks exactly, he looks like he's doing just that because he doesn't have that theological clarity to my mind that he's at least publicly expressing in the clips and stuff that I've seen.

I would say my biggest concern or just something I'm just not really impressed with is his church is hosting a, a conference on parents with LGBT kids. Okay. And we've, our organization has produced resources. A huge part of our ministry is helping parents navigate this.

But last time I checked, most of the speakers at that conference were all very publicly and some pretty aggressively affirming. I would be, I would go so far and I've hosted some of these like, like scholarly debates where you have people on this side, that side. And I'm not against having diversity of opinion under certain format,

but I didn't see much diversity here. There was like one kind of conservative person, but they weren't a theologian, but then now all these like theological equipped people who are affirming. I'm like, this is utterly, unless you're just appealing to parents who are affirming or whatever, if that's what you're doing,

then say it. And I could respect, disagree with, but respect kind of what you're doing. But this is like utterly confusing. And I think it's very unwise. I've had people that in my ministry, say parents with gay kids saying, I was incredibly disappointed. I think it's very unwise. I've had people that in my ministry say,

parents with gay kids saying, I was incredibly disappointed. This is not helpful for a parent when there's not theological clarity. And again, if you're affirming, then be affirming. But when you say you're not affirming and then host a conference with a ton of affirming speakers who are going to sway the audience, like you're going to get an affirming speakers who are going to sway the audience like it's it's you're going to get

an affirming perspective then i just don't think that's helpful at all so yeah i i hear you i hear you i saw that same conference thing and i was like man and i and i uh i've read andy stanley's uh deep and wide i thought it was a really good okay yeah i read uh communicating for a change oh yeah that's the one i read. Yeah, it's good. So he's done a lot of really good work. So I was kind of taking it back when he's like, I'm hearing all this stuff. And then you're seeing kind of like the breadcrumbs of like, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I'm really just like, man, just come out and own it. Like if this is what you're on. I hope it's not this. I hope it's not closeted. He's affirming. But he would lose a ton of people and money and church building i hope it's not power and money and platform and size of church that is preventing him from coming out as affirming i just don't have i can imagine that would be a hard decision but i'm like i just i again like

you said just if this is where you're at then then be where you're at. And I can agree to disagree, you know, but, um, I think that the unclarity is, is clarity is kindness. And I've, this is some, a big thing. And what I, when I help leaders work through this, I'm like, wherever you're at, just be consistent and be clear. You're not clear. It's just, it's not common people. It just confuses people. So, yeah. Yeah. That's yeah that's good um okay i got two offline questions i want to ask you uh uh shout out to memes for jesus for just joining the stream he said preston is the goat that's my guy um do you you have anything else you want to hit on on our on the public section of our conversation uh i don't think so. Yeah. Okay. I would encourage people to check out my latest book.

I wrote it to help. Yeah, I think there's so many people who are coming to me saying, how do I respond to this? How do I respond to that? What about this? I'm reading this argument. I heard the word

was added to the Bible, you know, 80 years ago. Is that true? So I wrote this as a resource to help people respond to those questions. That is, the original word was effeminate men, which is probably harsher than, right? All of them are. So the Greek words are sonakotes and malakoi in 1 Corinthians 6, 9. And there hasn't been a great English translation of those two Greek terms until the last decade or so.

The CSB, ESV and CSB do a good job. The new NIV does a good job. Anyways, it's... What would be a better translation for that? A male who is having sex with another male. Okay. Yeah. Or a man having sex with another male is what I would say.

Someone that is practicing. Is engaging in a same-sex relationship. And this is where a lot of people's concern, this is my concern with conservatives, they'll quote this passage saying, see, gay people won't inherit the kingdom of God. I'm like, whoa, this isn't talking about gay people, as in my friends who are committed to celibacy

out of allegiance to Jesus, but would still refer to themselves as gay. It's not talking about that. It's talking about somebody who is in an unrepentant, active, same-sex sexual relationship. Or opposite. I mean, the whole passage talks about all kinds of ongoing unrepentant sins. Yeah, that's good. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.