Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1103: Sexual Ethics and Christ's Upside Down Kingdom: Dr. Branson Parler

Episode Date: August 17, 2023

Dr. Branson Parler (Ph.D., Calvin Theological Seminary) is Director of Theological Education and Professor of Theology at The Foundryin Grand Rapids, Michigan and a pastor, author, and speaker. He teaches and writes on a wide variety of topics in theology, philosophy, and biblical studies. He serves on the collaborative leadership team for The Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender and as Director of Faith Formation at Fourth Reformed Church in Grand Rapids. In this conversation, we talk about Branson’s latest book: Every Body’s Story: 6 Myths About Sex and the Gospel Truth about Marriage and Singleness. Learn more about Branson from his website: http://www.bransonparler.com

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automatically be entered to win one of 10 free copies of my latest book. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is my good friend, Dr. Branson Parler. Branson has a PhD from Calvin Theological Seminary, and he serves as the Director of Theological Education and Professor of Theology at The Foundry in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We talk a little bit about what The Foundry is at the beginning of the podcast, but we primarily look at his latest book, Everybody's Story, Six Myths About Sex and the Gospel Truth About Marriage and Singleness, which forms the backbone of our conversation. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Branson Parley.

Branson, I don't know, is this number two or three of your appearances on Theology in a Raw? It's been at least a couple, right? I think. Yeah, I think this is at least two. So yeah, it's good to be here. We are very unique in the sense that both, well, you're more Reformed than I am. You're like officially Reformed. I'm like lowercase r Reformed-ish, at least that's my background. People ask me if I'm Reformed. I'm like, what do you mean by that? I'm not going to put me in. But anyway, but you're a Yoder fan, or at least a fan of his theology. And I am too. There's not too many people that have a Reformed background that are advocates of nonviolence.

So I think if we started a church, we'd probably have like three people in it, I think. It's not a huge crowd. Not a huge crowd. Thanks so much for coming back on the show. I want to jump into your book that you wrote. And I wrote the foreword, right? Yeah, that's right. That's right. I wrote the foreword. Yeah, I want to jump into your book that you wrote and I endorse, or no, I wrote the forward, right? Yeah, that's right. That's right.

I wrote the forward. Yeah, I didn't just endorse it. That's right. Now it came out over a year ago, which means I read it probably two years ago. So I'm excited to get a refresher here.

And it is, I don't agree to do stuff like that simply because I know the person because they're a friend. Like I do need to really believe in the content. And your book is absolutely fantastic. So it was an easy forward

to write. Real quick, though, before we jump into the book, tell us briefly, what is the foundry? I had you on a year ago to talk about it. So some people might be familiar, but it's such a... I think it could be the way of the future of theological education, really. So give us a quick pitch of what is the Foundry, this thing that you helped create. Yeah. So the Foundry, you can find us at thefoundrygr.org. We provide biblical and practical training for leaders at every level. Part of the big idea here is to take what's often been done in academic circles and make that much more accessible in a church context.

And so kind of the mindset of seminary, plugging seminary into local churches and church networks and saying there are a lot of folks out there who want to go deeper, who want to grow, who want to be trained for ministry. But for different reasons, traditional seminary just isn't accessible. It isn't affordable. And so part of what we do is try to put that together for adult learners in a doable rhythm so that people can still have access to the highest levels of academic training, but really with the focus on serving the church and looking at the ministry outcomes that are going to come from being rooted in scripture, theology, ministry. And so we do

that in a variety of ways. We're located in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and so that's kind of our region where we're based, but our goal is really to serve the church through this kind of training. And you bring both a pastoral and academic background to it. So, this really is your sweet spot, right? Merging high-level scholarship, biblical training, that's, that's not just surfacy with, you know, a heart for the church that this is, you know, intended to produce, you know, is intended to affect the church on the ground with all the things that church is wrestling with. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. To give people, I think, you know, I love digging into the deep stuff, reading the books, engaging there, but also thinking through, like you said, what does this look like on the ground for the local church?

All the questions of life and ministry that they have to wrestle with. And so I think it's been a lot of fun to do this the last couple of years in the context of churches, people who are passionate about serving Jesus, but who want to grow deeper in their faith and in their ability intellectually to wrestle with kind of what we might think of as a more academic side, but also always focused on what does this mean for the church, the church on mission of the world. That's great. That's great. All right, let's talk about your book.

First of all, let's back up. How did you get interested in questions around sexuality? Did that arise from like a pastoral need? Because you didn't, this wasn't like area research for your PhD. It wasn't mine either. It kind of fell in. I think it's the same for you, right? Was it the pastoral needs that forced you to dig into it? Yeah. I think it was a similar track where just seeing, I taught for 13 years at Kuyper College here in Grand Rapids and just seeing the way that college students were wrestling with these questions, seeing the way that churches, so my church was part of the Reformed Church

in America. That's one of several denominations that have gone through pretty big splits and questions around this topic. And so, you know, that was an area that people were wrestling with. And so for me, it was really a way to serve the church and to say, as somebody who's geared academically, there's a lot of arguments out there. There's a lot of discussion. And so really taking the time to dig in and understand those and not try to come to it from sort of a prepackaged conclusion,

but really try to dig into the material and the questions, conversations at hand and go that direction. Where is the RCA, the Reformed Church of America, at right now currently? I know you guys have gone through, I mean, I feel like every couple of years or six years, there's always something going on on a denominational level. I don't know how much you're allowed to share publicly, but is it, I mean, you said kind of a split. Is that an actual thing that has happened, will happen, or is that more kind of loose language you're using? No. So at least in our denomination, in the RCA, that is a split that has already happened and is currently unfolding. And so actually the church that I'm part of in Grand Rapids, a number of churches have split off to form the Alliance of Reformed Churches is probably the biggest group. There's other churches,

Kingdom Network, churches that have split off from there. And so that, I think the last time I looked at the numbers, it's around 20 to 30% of the churches, but those churches represent about 40 to 50% of the members. And so for that denomination, that's a, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a pretty big split, but I would say, you know, what's interesting to me about a lot of these discussions is there are deeper sort of theological, philosophical questions that are underpinning the questions around marriage and sexuality, which is kind of the direction I go in my book. go in my book, in terms of trying to think through, there's something deeper here. Yeah, we have differences over how to understand some of these particular ethical questions around marriage, sex, singleness, sexuality, gender. But it's really, when we start to pay attention, there's some deeper stories, there's deeper ways of looking at the world that really do shape those discussions that we need to be maybe more in tune with

than we are. And so I don't know if that's, in some ways, it makes clear that maybe the difference is actually deeper than just, do we disagree about this particular definition of marriage, for example. It really is a question of marriage that's been the tipping point or the tip of the spear or whatever, or at least publicly, that's kind of what is the thing that is causing several really, I mean, a good number of churches to leave, to leave the denomination. So the RCA is, is, is it now officially affirming? I still, I've been, I've done so much work with the RCA and I still can't wrap my mind around the structure of it. Cause it's like, it has

on paper, it's, it believes in traditional marriage. But a lot of the higher-ups or some of the higher-ups, some people with a lot of power don't believe what the denomination believes. And yet – so I don't to actually hold people accountable to that. And so that's why I think at least in that denomination, you know, people worked for decades to try to clarify this and say, what's the stance? And basically what the denomination has come to is they would say they are functionally diverse on the question of marriage and sexuality, even if on paper, everything reflects the historic view. And so that's part of the question for those who are remaining. Part of that is, you know, can you live with a body that is functionally diverse on that? What does that mean? What are

the implications? And then for churches that have left are usually those who would say, at the end of the day, it's not tenable to make that work taken a lot of people on the historic side out of the denomination, which would make the official denomination feel at least much more affirming, right? Would that be true? Whereas before it was maybe a minority of leaders as a whole, it would be affirming, and now it's probably the majority? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I think it will change things. I mean, so that even like I think in West Michigan, most of the classies, the groups that historically have been more conservative, almost all the churches have left or certainly the majority of those have left. So then even those places that were kind of strongholds of that position are now going to be left with probably mostly folks who are on the more affirming side. Well, thanks for the RCA. That's it. Brief detour into polity discussion. I'm always curious about different denominations and what's going on. I wasn't raised in a denomination. I don't understand when people ask me about the Southern Baptist stuff and

United Methodist and all this. I'm like, man, I'm trying to get my own mind around some of the shifts that are happening. Okay, so your let's, okay. So your book, so you've been, you've been thinking through questions on sexuality for, I mean, over a decade, I would, I would imagine, um, is this book kind of a fruit of a lot of that? I mean, is this kind of like your, like, if you can put together kind of your, your main thoughts on questions on sexuality, marriage, broadly speaking, this, this book really is a product of, of a lot of thinking and research and pastoral, you know, application or working through questions on the ground as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it really is. I mean, it's, I,

the book is a blend of the fact that, you know, I was teaching undergraduates on this material. Uh, you know, I taught a course on marriage, family, sexuality, but also taught a course on kind of the big stories, contemporary cultural stories, and thinking through like the big story of the Bible and those cultural stories. And to me, it was kind of the fruitful interaction that happened in my own mind and in that teaching space and pastoring space of, um, starting to see the connections between, okay, we've got this focused, uh, ethical question and issue, but I'm also teaching through these big stories that really shape our culture that are, you know, fundamentally engaging, you know, the most basic questions of, you know, who are we,

what's the nature of reality, what's the problem, uh, what's the solution. Uh, and for me starting to kind of trace out, okay, if you, if you pay attention to, uh, again, the questions around, uh, marriage, sexuality, gender, et cetera, we have to recognize that those are located within certain broader and deeper cultural stories. Uh, And so thinking through how those stories shape. So before we even come to these debates, if these stories are just so ingrained in how we operate in our assumptions, then a lot of times you can tell what conclusions people are going to draw about specific issues or questions when it comes to these matters. Yeah, yeah. So everybody's story, the subtitle, sorry, Six Myths About Sex and the Gospel Teaching About Marriage and Singleness. You're packing in a lot there. What are this? Well, why don't we

start? Let's just go through the six myths. So beginning with myth one, or do you lay a foundation before that? I forget. Well, it's so really kind of helping people understand that we're all shaped by these stories. And so just just a little bit of groundwork to to be attentive to the fact that, you know, the first story I deal with is individualism, which in some ways is a story that we're not shaped by any story that, you know, we're all just these unique individuals that come at these things. that come at these things. But so the six stories, three of them are from the broader secular culture, and three of them are from kind of a Christian subculture. And so this is why for me in thinking through the subtitle, the idea of the six stories and the gospel truth about marriage and singleness was to say, I think if we're rooted in the gospel story and the story of who Jesus is for us, I think it's going to come into conflict

both with the stories of the broader culture, but to also recognize that we in the church often drift into these problematic stories as well. So the three from our broader culture are the stories of individualism, you do you, the story of romance, you complete me, and the story of naturalism, which is really that you're nothing more than matter in motion. And so those are three big stories, I think, that really shape the culture. Whereas the three stories that I think often we see in Christian subculture around these things are the story of legalism, which is, you know, behave yourself, of legalism, which is, you know, behave yourself, follow the rules, do what you're supposed to do. The, what I call the story, the sexual prosperity gospel, which is sort of our equivalent of romance, you know, follow, do follow the rules and things are going to turn out right. You know,

you're going to meet the perfect person. Everything's going to go well. And then the last one is, is kind of the mirror image of naturalism, which is really the story of evil bodies. Like our bodies are the problem. Oftentimes there's this, what I see is identifying the body itself oftentimes with sin or fallenness. And so for me, it's really important not to just, and some Christians like fall into, I think, both of these to just say, well, the culture has it all wrong, but the church has it all right. And my experience growing up in the church and being Christian circles is that is certainly not the case. And so to be clear how I think these stories on both sides give us a problematic view,

not just of sex and bodies, but really a problematic view of who we are as human beings and in different ways who God is. And so that's what I try to walk through with each of the stories is to start with questions around sexuality, gender, and marriage, but to try to help folks see that what's really at play here is this deeper story about who we are as human beings or who God is as we do that. And as I walk through those, then try to articulate how the gospel, which I talk about in terms of God's covenant faithfulness through the suffering body of Jesus, how that provides a different avenue forward for us as Christians to actually articulate, hopefully, a clear, compelling

notion of why do we hold to the views that we hold? It's not just a list of rules. It's not just these other things we often make recourse to. I've been meaning to ask you and open up a rock conversation. We got to mix it up a little bit, Branson. So you, if I remember correctly, you do draw on some Catholic theologians, JP2, or at least you seem familiar with that work, and especially even the title, Everybody's Story, that the body tells a story, that there is some profound theological symbolism in marriage and the one flesh union and so on. Let me get back to my question, and you'll know where I'm going with this. In a post-Josh Butler world, where he popularized some of these, I would say, pretty basic Catholic teachings that most Protestants I know that study this stuff,

I don't know a single Protestant who spoke negatively of JP2's theology of the body. It's kind of like the kind of Protestant go, a Catholic and Protestant go-to. And yet the way in which Josh wrote about that struck a nerve, right? And I endorse his book. I think it's absolutely, I think the theology in the book is really fantastic. I think it's very misrepresented by people that already were going into reading it with an axe to grind. And yeah, some of the reviews I read on the book were like, this is, yeah, just a terrible way to review a book. Having said that, and Josh and I talked about this, I think he presented it in a way I'm like, I wouldn't, there's some wording and stuff that I maybe wouldn't have done. And he likes to provoke and push the line, as so I don't, I don't fault him

for taking that approach. It's just, there was some of these things I would have probably maybe worded things differently because I can see where people would say, oh, it seems like you're saying this. I'm like, well, I know Josh, I know the whole book. That's not what he's trying to say, but I could see where somebody would get that. Anyway, all that to say, um, what are your thoughts on, I guess more, let's just maybe take it more theologically. Like, how deep does the symbolism go when we talk about marriage, male-female sexual relationships, and how we understand our relationship with God? Is that making sense? I'm kind of just giving a broad question to allow you to enter in wherever you would like. I didn't even ask you what you thought about his,

have you read his book and the whole kind of hubbub and everything, if you have any thoughts on that too. Yeah. It was an interesting example of things that just blow up a lot of times and it's not clear how much people are actually interested in digging into the conversation. I mean, for me, it's always a topic that is loaded in so many different ways for people that I think when you speak and engage on that, you have to be clear. But also recognize that we're in a context where people oftentimes are just looking for something to attack, whether they've actually really engaged or not. I think to me, you know, I remember one of the, one article, I don't even remember who it was by. So forgive me for that. I think in Christianity today, it was almost like keep imagery out of the bedroom

or keep the covenant, you know, like Ephesians five doesn't have anything to do with the bedroom. And there's a, I agree partially with that. But one of the things that, that I learned as I was digging into the research for this book, and this is where I think there's, I actually think there's two very different paradigms at play in kind of the biblical sort of framework, how it looks at bodies in the world. And especially the story of naturalism, which I alluded to. And what I mean by that is this.

I think within the biblical framework, there's this notion of covenant and that at least part of the way that you make a covenant with someone, there's always a physical kind of oath sign, like something that, right, even you might think about this in a business deal, somebody actually has to sign the paper or we don't really just trust a handshake anymore. But this notion that something happens, right, that a covenant is actually made, biblically speaking, through sexual union. Right. So this actually takes bodies. This takes bodies really seriously in the sense that it affirms, yes, there has to be consent. There has to be this kind of pledging of a life to life. I think you see that even in Genesis 2 in the language of Adam to Eve. But that when we think about sexual union, that this is actually a covenantal act,

a covenant making or renewing act, that at least I've found like when I present this to like undergrads who grew up in the church, they're like, what? It's a very foreign notion because I think it's a really subtle difference. But I think oftentimes we view sex, sexual union, sexual activity of any kind, that's meant to be kept in marriage. And I think there's a subtle difference between seeing sexual union as a marriage making act and as something that maybe expresses my commitment or my love or my relationship. culture says we don't have to talk about that at all right we don't have to get any specifics around sexual union or sexual activity we're gonna you know people are going to be triggered or this is going to go an interesting direction but i think there's a big difference between seeing this formative view that our bodies are significant for actually forming and renewing a covenant

and this more expressive view that says hey if you're committed to somebody you probably heard that even within youth groups that's the language people are going to use. Sex belongs in marriage. Kind of what's at marriage is this thing separate from sex. That's actually really helpful. So we often say sex belongs within marriage. Half the time, we don't know why. I say we as a church.

It's like because the Bible says so, right? Or on the more thoughtful level, it's like, well, sex has a procreative intent. And if you're going to engage in an act that the creator has designed in part to produce children, then I think most people, you don't need to be a Christian to agree with this, that the best context for children to be raised ideally is with their two biological parents who are committed to each other, not just having a one night stand or a five year, whatever. So the logic does kind of fall into place from a, it's almost like a sociotheological level, you know? But what you're saying is that the sex act is kind of the sign of the covenant, that every covenant needs some kind of sign, some kind of act to ratify it? Is that the right term? That sounds so clinical. Well, I mean, this is, and this is probably my big R reformed background coming out. But I think,

you know, when you look at scripture, like God is a covenant God. He makes covenants with his people. Like this is who he is. He's a covenant making and promise keeping God. So this is really essential to God's character. And then even when God himself makes covenants with people, it's through physical means that there's, you know, these images like in Exodus of God actually eating with Moses and the elders of Israel that, you know, again, this is part of why I think our world actually places a very low view on materiality, whereas scripture says like something actually happens through the physical,

material world that actually are, and I talk about this in one of the chapters in the book, you know, the New Testament is very clear. We're saved through the body and blood of Jesus. Like if Jesus isn't physical, tangible, human, we're not saved. And that's almost like too earthy for many of us to grapple with. And so then to tie it into thinking about how does scripture talk about sex and marriage, if the point is God is a covenant making and keeping God, then our covenant, namely marriage, is meant to be this sign and pointer of his faithfulness. I think that's why you get scripture using that language, why the prophets, why Paul in Ephesians 5 ties the covenant of marriage to this covenant that God has with his people.

Do you think, you mentioned Ephesians 5, and again, this, and we don't need to, Josh is a good friend. We talk, I mean, a few times a week. So I should bring him on here if we're going to talk about it. It's not really, let's just leave him aside. Let's just, the text, like Ephesians 5 has been kind of a, I don't want to say battleground. It wasn't really battleground like five seconds ago, but you know, is Ephesians 5 talking just generically, generally 30,000 foot level marriage, or is it talking more specifically about, you know, the sexual union

within marriage, which is kind of, you know, okay, Josh was, you know, drawing out, you know, going into a little more specificity regarding this kind of one flesh union, how it symbolizes Christ in the church and teasing out kind of how the human act slash metaphor of marriage, you know, points us to God. And, and people, some people were like, no, Ephesians five, isn't talking about sex. It's just talking about, you know, marriage. Um, and even then, you know, it's, it's, it's situated in a patriarchal context of Paul's drawing on any, you know, that just leads all kinds of different rails. But what are your thoughts on, so is it, is it talking about marriage and not sex? Is it talking about sex within marriage or

is that a false dichotomy that we're even trying to... Yeah, I mean, that's what I would say. I do to, that there's this notion of this, you know, when you think about, at least I would say that covenantal union that we have with Christ, Paul is drawing on a parallel covenantal union. And that covenantal union, I mean, John Paul II draws this out, you know, which I don't know if people would, I don't know what they would process this if they haven't before, but this notion of the sacramental or covenantal union that happens in the celebration of the Lord's Supper, in a way having this parallel with sexual union as this covenant act that is uniting two different parties in that way.

And so I think we do have to be very careful not to go beyond, I think, what Scripture is intending in terms of how it's utilizing that metaphor. But I would say the focus is primarily on marriage as a whole. But there is some component of that, as it references Genesis 2, that includes sexual union. I think it shows that probably the challenge of trying to just jump right into that topic without doing the background and framework of really thinking through how do our culture stories shape how we're going to hear this? How do our experiences shape how we're going to hear this? How do our experiences shape how we're going to hear this? Have we dug into the biblical text that, I mean,

this is the part that kind of surprised me when you do start paying attention. It's like, yeah, sexual union is treated as this covenant making act. Like this is profound. So I think you kind of have to have a lot of that groundwork. And I think if people have been, you know, if what you've heard in churches, the legalism is the sexual prosperity gospel is the antibody theology, then I can see why some folks would react maybe the way that they did. I think that's a good analysis. That's a good cultural analysis. When I say cultural, I mean inside and outside the church that we have such

thick lenses and legitimate trauma in some cases and pain and warped theology being given to us. So to understand a theology of sex and marriage, I feel like so much of our experience is just really coming to play. This episode is sponsored by Athletic now called ag1 i have been on a mission to find the best nutritional supplement that will improve my health boost my energy and my mental clarity and after trying dozens of different supplements i have found ag1 to be the best bang for my buck packed with 75 high quality vitamins minerals minerals, and whole food source ingredients, AG1 is a comprehensive nutrition blast to my body. It supports my immune system, it supports digestion, my overall gut health, and I feel, I mean, honestly, for me, I feel a noticeable difference in my sustained energy throughout the day and mental clarity. I've been taking AG1

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So go to drinkag1.com forward slash T-I-T-R to take advantage of this offer. That's drinkag1.com forward slash T-I-T-R. Check it out. This is an unintentional segue because this is exactly what you do in the book, saying there's all these kind of myths surrounding our understanding of the creator's design for sex. One of the ones, I mean, you said it a couple of times, to me is one of the more fascinating, interesting, maybe one of the most relevant is the sexual prosperity gospel. That's a provocative phrase. I think a lot of people kind of know what you're getting at, but can you tease that out for people that maybe don't know what you mean by that idea, sexual prosperity gospel? Yeah, it's really this notion that if I follow the rules, and this is where I see a link with the legalism, but kind of saying, you know, here's how things go. If I follow these rules, if I follow what's been set out, then I'm going to reap the rewards of

that. And so I think about, you know, the focus from different groups that are, you know, you might consider part of purity culture, others that kind of say, if you do this, then here's going to be the reward. You know, if you wait to have sex until you're married, it's going to be great, fantastic, mind blowing. You're definitely going to meet the person of your dreams. This is all going to kind of fall together in this way. And even holding up just the sheer fact of, I think, Christians holding up marriage as the ideal, not a recognition of both singleness and marriage, as Paul's out in Corinthians 7, as both pathways for Christians to faithfully follow Jesus. And so I think this is one of the areas where I see, you know, part

of the reason this is so damaging is because what's implicit in this, or maybe sometimes explicit, is not just a view of sex and marriage, but a view of God that says, you know, if you do these things and follow through on this, then here's what God is going to do for you. And often treats God as, you know, just the dispenser of, you know, almost like we force his hand if we're good enough, we're going to force his hand to give us these things. And then when those don't happen, you know, it just doesn't just challenge somebody's view of sex and marriage. It might cause him to walk away from faith in God entirely because of how, because of how we've set this up in a way that, you know, doesn't actually,

it's not actually biblical. It doesn't actually fit scripture as a whole. It's certainly, I think in that chapter I use, you know, Martin Luther's language of theology. It's kind of a theology of glory that, you know, this is all going to go well, rather than a theology of the cross that says, you know, we're called to a way of life that is not always going to be easy. And we're not guaranteed that even if you do what is right, that's not how it's going to shake out necessarily. That's the whole point of the wisdom literature, right? I mean, you had this Deuteronomic, if you do this, then this will happen,

the Deuteronomy 28 blessings and curses, which is kind of the bedrock of the old covenant to some extent, but then the wisdom literature comes along and says, Job in particular in several Psalms and Ecclesiastes saying, yeah, but it doesn't always work out that way, you know? And then the New Testament obviously flips the whole script on its head with the theology of suffering. Do you find, so this is really like a practical question. It seems that like the old, so I'm not an expert in

this area, the whole purity culture stuff like i'm thinking like the 90s early 2000s where some of this stuff was almost from what people tell me um was almost said explicitly like it wasn't just kind of connecting the dots it was almost like you know like it was really kind of in your face and i read old stuff like 20 years ago i'll read people quoting me stuff from purity culture books. I'm like, gosh, people actually said that like out loud. But then now it seems like there is a neo-purity culture, I don't want to say movement, but some of the same authors, it seems like they're kind of correcting in a great way. Correcting some of the things that they realize like, oh, gosh, yeah, that isn't the most theologically accurate thing to say.

But they're still maintaining kind of an emphasis on modesty typically for women. They're still maintaining some of the rhetoric and purity culture. Do you find – here's my question. Here's my question. Do you find that this idea of the sexual prosperity gospel, are people realizing the danger of that, the theological and stuff, typically people are critiquing purity culture, not advocating for it on the whole. But I also go in some spaces where it's like, oh my gosh, it's like a slap in the face. Like, oh, we're still saying that? And people are like, yes, Preston. They're trying to – yes, yes.

It's alive and well. It's very widespread. It's still a huge problem because I'm like, is this really a thing anymore? And they're like, no, it really is. So anyway, I probably – there's a lot of questions. But yeah, what are your thoughts on – yeah. we need more theological nuance. And I think maybe like you referenced earlier, I think a lot of this is it's almost somewhat kind of social, sociologically and pragmatically driven. Some of the stuff from the nineties and two thousands where like a big part of literature is like, you don't want to get STDs. So, uh, right. Like, and there's some of that that's just, and not necessarily super anchored in a deep theology of the body or of marriage or sexuality.

But it's kind of funny because I do think it's still out there. My daughter, Eliana, who's 14, was just telling me she got back from summer camp and she was like, we had a speaker who talked about this. And a lot of what they said was really good. But I don't know if she's read my book, but she's perused some of it. good, but you know, I get, she had, I don't know if she's read my book, but she's perused some of it. She was like, but I went up and talked to her afterwards. Cause, cause some of this was a lot like this purity culture, sexual prosperity gospel, like still kind of holding out. Like if you do this, then here's kind of what's going to happen. And you know, basically you're, you're And, you know, basically you're over promising in a way that doesn't align with scripture.

And so part of what I see, I think, is a lot of times is especially when you're engaging. So, I mean, I guess this would be my challenge. Because I critique a fair amount of the purity culture and I know others do, too. But like, okay, so imagine you are in front of a group of seventh and eighth graders. What do you, what are you saying? Because I think what I see happen is people just make recourse to kind of cliches or the pragmatic or, right. So we have to, it's almost like we need to do a better job of thinking about how, how do you explain to middle schoolers, something that it's going to be simpler than I would explain to a group of

college students or adults, but it still has to be adequately complex. And what I've found, at least in my experience is it is, maybe you see this too, it's a lot easier to critique what other people say and be like, that's oversimplistic. That's problematic. Okay. Imagine you're up there. It's important to talk through that without falling into cliches. And that's where I think a lot of people just maybe don't have.

It's what my book tries to address is like, we need to be able to share the good news. Like, how is this connected in any way to the gospel? The good news that Christ died and has risen again, and how that puts God's covenant faithful love on display, makes it real. What does that have to do with my body? What does that have to do with my choices when it comes to sexuality? Those kinds of things. And I think that's the piece that, again, I don't usually see that in most popular level. Like, what does any of this have to do with Jesus and the gospel? It's sort of like, well, if you believe in Jesus, you should also follow this, you know, sort of follow these rules, but you should do this. But I find, especially by

the time kids get to high school, especially college, that's not a very, like, just because we said so, or just because the Bible says so is not very compelling. So how do you articulate that in a way that it's, it's tied into the good news of what Jesus has done? How do you, I mean, do you have a bunch of kids? How many kids do you have? Six? Yeah, we have six. Six kids. Yeah. So, I mean, your house is filled with Gen Z people running around. I got four. Um,

and that, I mean, that really is the million dollar question, right? Not, not is specifically, we're talking about sexual ethics. So the question to my mind isn't really, can you present a biblical case for God's sexual ethic in a way that is logically true? Okay. You got the verses, got the logic. You can refute the counter arguments. Like to me, that's not that difficult. But how can you help, especially younger people steeped in all these narratives, see it as the most beautiful, compelling story in relationship to all the other competing stories? Have you answered that question? I mean, I, I, yeah. Yeah. Part of it I think is, is, is, is rewiring people's brains of what is beautiful. You know, like I think sometimes they're coming in with a view of beauty

that kind of like, um, how do you get somebody to appreciate the taste of, you know, uh, a really, really good wine or, um, uh, maybe, you know, a nice steak or something. Well, if they're just raised on this, I sound like such a boomer here, but whatever, you know, if they're just eating Snickers bars all day and McDonald's or whatever, and they might take a bite of a, you know, the filet, you know, the best kind of, they might take a bite and say, yeah, that's pretty good to kind of taste like a big Mac or whatever. Like, no, no, you don't understand. Or drink a bottle, a little bit of like a, like a really aged wine, like a, like a $200 bottle of wine or something. Take a sip and like, Oh yeah. Give me some grape juice, you know? Um, but I don't know. That's

just such a cop out though. Isn't it like, Oh, the problem is with you. You don't know how to see beauty. You know, I don't, I don't know. Well, I do think there is. So for me, I mean, maybe this sounds basic, but I think a lot of the place to start is, do you see the beauty of the story of the gospel and the beauty of who Jesus is for you? Because I think, I think in terms of maybe, especially for folks who've been raised in the church or you're over familiar with that, like to recognize that without Jesus, we're desperately lost. I think a lot of us, myself included, who've been raised in the church, you know, fall into the category maybe of like the older brother in the story of the prodigal son, where it's like, I'm here.

I've been doing all the right things. I see this and we don't recognize the depth of the father's love for us that's shown in Jesus. And so I think part of the challenge is this sexual ethic only makes sense if you really see the beauty of Jesus and what he's doing. Because it is this theology of the cross. It is a pathway that is foolishness to the wisdom of the world, is weakness to the power of the world, that the logic there doesn't add up. But once it, and so I think oftentimes we try to convert people to a sexual ethic without first asking, are they converted to Jesus? And the upside down, which are like the upside down nature of Jesus's kingdom and the upside down way, the counterintuitive way of what it

means to flourish as a human being, a robust theology of suffering and picking up your cross and denying yourself as a means to happiness, right? I mean, is that what you're saying? Like these really counterintuitive fundamental aspects of the gospel need to be in place before somebody can appreciate that the creator is designed for sexual ethics? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That I think those have to be interwoven together. And so that's where if, I mean, it's kind of the challenge, the overall task of parenting, like, am I daily in a variety of ways, helping my kids be in tune with the goodness of God and the gospel of Jesus, so that then when we are talking about, and here's why we do what we do with our bodies, it's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Like that, that clicks with the rest of the logic in this story. Um, then, then I think that's where, as part of a, you know, coherent Christian life, it all comes together. And I think oftentimes we've tried to, you know, if, if we fall into,

you know, the individualism or the consumerism of our culture or the legalism, whatever, it's like, you know, we end up then. I don't think any of those have a sufficiently compelling vision that fit with Scripture for what this looks like. So unless we're first getting people rooted and grounded in the story of the gospel, the sexual ethic is not going to add up because it is, I mean, those who lose their lives will find it. This is not something that on the surface, it's going to look foolish unless you have the eyes to see what's really going on yeah so that's i think kind of the the attunement piece is is just helping them tune into um the gospel so is there no magic formula to how to get especially i'm just thinking more specifically of younger people um 25 and younger whatever and then i just say you know it again, us old fogies here, just the younger kids need, it's a matter of the old. Um, I, but, but really, I mean, I think, I think Jen's, you know,

digital natives, let's say, you know, they really are my, my kids, your kids, they're, they're growing. It'd be like growing up in a world 10 years after the printing press. Like that's a cataclysmic psychosocial shift in how humans will forever operate in society. You know, going back to, yeah, I don't know, maybe even the TV or something. But like, I think it's not just the next younger generation, but I do think Gen Z is a uniquely different generation that we've only seen every few centuries maybe, where they're kind of on the cusp of this radical shifts happening. And who knows what's after Gen Z? Is it Gen – I don't know the name for it. Alpha Gen? I'm not sure what the terminology is. I don't know the name for it alpha gen or is it is it starting terminology is I don't know I don't

know but like you know people growing up where AI is going to be like the norm like that's right you know Gen Z is going to be like the old fogies like us trying to navigate social media all these changes and in our Gen Z when they become parents or some of our parents you know are going to have to raise their kids where AI is like the air they breathe, I think. That's my prediction. see the beauty of not just the, so I love what you're, not just the sexual ethic that's part of, but the beauty of this backwards way of living in Christ's upside down kingdom. I guess that's the how to do that. Yeah. And that for me is, is, you know, at least in my own journey, part of the, the, what's enabled me to go forward, I think in this, in this culture is kind of digging deeper and looking at the depth

and breadth of the Christian tradition. Because again, in my context, you know, being raised good fundamentalist Baptist in Iowa, there was no John Paul II. There was maybe a little bit of Augustine, a little bit of, you know, the reformers here and there. I think for me, there is a sense of, maybe this is a, this is overly optimistic, but, but saying, how do we help people identify what in the Christian tradition as a whole really helps us to see the good, the true, and the beautiful in this way of life and expect that it's probably

going to be, you know, this is going to be a minority of people. We're not talking about how do Christians run the world? We're not talking about how do we make the rest of the culture do what we do? What if the question were, how can we live faithfully and how can we then speak compellingly about what we're doing? And that's the thing that I think I, I hope this book helps to meet this need, because what I see is that at least I was raised in circles where people kind of said, here's what to do. But if you said, why are you doing that? They couldn't really give

a compelling answer. And I think that's absolutely crucial that if we're going to live in this upside down way, this, this weird way that inevitably people are going to question that and say, you know what, why do you do this? Can we not simply explain our sexual ethic, but can we explain how our sexual ethic is connected to Jesus and the good news of the gospel. And so that's, I mean, that's for me why I try to really in the book, in numerous ways, tie together, help people see the big story of the Bible, how that centers on Jesus, and then how this element of sexual ethics is tied to that as part of this coherent, compelling story. Because I don't, I think people are already realizing that the promises of the sexual revolution are not panning out. Like our culture is not like we're seeing the dead ends of that. And so then it's like, but we can't just offer people legalism or sexual prosperity gospel or antibody theology. We have to say, you know, you're, you're, you're reaching a dead end here.

we have to say, you know, you're reaching a dead end here. Here's the path of life. And it might look like a path of death. It might look like foolishness initially, but try this. Taste and see what Jesus is all about. It is interesting how many secular writers are calling out the sexual revolution and seeing how much harm it's done, especially towards women and children. And I love what you said. The answer isn't to go back to the 1950s and put every woman in the kitchen and segregate.

It's only white men who hail the 1950s as kind of the apex of human civilization. But yeah, I think it's getting back to the creator's original design. I think going back to my, I don't know, I guess it is more of, it is, well, it's an ecclesiological question. It's a discipleship question. And I, you know, thinking back to with the youth and like, we absolutely need a, you know, sound teaching, which to summarize kind of a lot of what we've been talking about is primarily centered on the countercultural gospel, where there's a theology of suffering, there's a theology of creation, where it's not neo-gnostic, it's not individualistic. So the sound teaching of the gospel that is embedded, or a sexual ethic is embedded in this gospel story, all that's true. And how do we get past that down to especially,

well, not just the youth. It's like, we're all screwed up. You know, the Gen Xers like ourselves weren't, you know, we're still trying to figure out, you know, a theology of marriage. But I think that, and this could easily turn into a youth ministry kind of conversation, which I'm not opposed to. I think we need robust community-based discipleship. Our kids, more than ever, when they feel like they have a community of countercultural Christians living this out, especially people who have gone ahead of them. I'm just speaking anecdotally of my own kids. I've never seen their faith so vibrant, which my kids, the three that are at home at least, one that's married that's in a different state, but they are so thriving right now in their faith in ways that are just blowing my mind. And it has a little to do,

I hope it has something to do with parenting. I really, I want to take some credit for some. My wife could take a huge chunk of that credit. But even that, it would not happen were they not in, which they are now, in a real robust, diverse community of people that range from their age to like 25. I've got an amazing youth leader who doesn't even, he's not even a youth leader at our church. He's at a different church, but he

like, and he just got married. He's in his late twenties, you know, he's a real estate agent. I have no problem mentioning it. Maybe he, no, he's the type of guy I wouldn't want to mention his name, but he hangs out with my 14 year old son once a week, takes him out, hangs out with him, plays soccer. I've got another kid who's just this morning, 22, I say kid. He's like a semi-pro soccer player. He takes my son out, solid Christian guy. There's another. We have people in our house that are just in community with our kids who who are number one, it is a community. Like

my kids feel like they have a network of not just a youth group to go attend. They do have that. But if it's just attending a youth group where no one's really feels like this is my robust community where we have each other's back, maybe they even hear good teaching. That is just so not enough. But to be in deep relationship with other Christians, especially Christians who are a couple steps ahead of them in the faith. And so our kids are seeing this stuff, not just taught, but lived out in compelling survive today without that kind of rich community. Whether it's a, like ours is just an informal hodgepodge network of people in and out of our house, whether it's that, whether it's an organized youth group or just whatever. That's just so necessary to see, again, going back to our specific conversation, a robust

theology of sexual ethics and marriage lived out in an embodied, authentic community around them. We have to, that just has to be a priority. Yeah. Yeah. That it's not, you know,

when, when I think back to the big, you know, the purity culture movements and stuff like that, it was, it's about a program. It's about a curriculum. It's about,

you know, this many tens of thousands of people sign this pledge. And I think part of what we're talking about is much more of a discipleship movement of people who live real life together, who are intergenerational. And so you see the way that, you know, that I think, especially for youth, yeah, probably putting, you know, whether 10 kids or 100 hundred kids or 200 kids in a room with just one teacher, like that's not going to, that's not going to give them any of what we're talking about. It might give them like one soundbite or two, but they need this, they need the kind of one-on-one, one-on-three discipleship that says, this is what I do. And we're following Jesus. And, you know, this is a way of life that looks different from the surrounding world.

But you're not crazy. I'm not crazy. You know, this is real. We don't necessarily expect the world to get it or to sound like us or to affirm what we're doing. But there's clarity, again, on being followers of Jesus in this way. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a huge need.

It's such a huge need. Again, it's always a need to pass on the faith of the next generation. But again, I think there is something unique in time and space and history with people who are digital natives, for lack of better terms. We didn't get to – shoot, I really want to talk about individualism because that myth is... Would you say that the myth of... What's the exact title of the chapter on individualism? Yeah. So it's just the myth of individualism. And for each chapter, I give kind of a slogan. And the one for that is just you do you. Can you give us... It's got to be short because I do have to run here, but, um, cause that, that's, I mean, would you see that that is another, just obviously it's huge. It's

one of the few that you address in the book. So, I mean, but, uh, yeah, summarize what the, what is the problem with individualism and, and how has it, um, worked its way into the church culture in particular? Yeah. I mean, I think with individualism, and I put that one first because I do think in the broader culture, it's the most dominant one that assumes that I can know and identify the path to true happiness and fulfillment on my own. And especially in terms of, you know, how we look at that then is, is anything outside myself that would sort of prescribe or tell me, well, here's the path to true happiness, to true fulfillment. You know, we don't, we don't listen. Anything trying to tell her to do that to me is, is an obstacle for individualism that I have to overcome. And so it really is this vision of life that says

it's ultimately up to me to define myself, to understand myself, and to define the route to my own fulfillment and happiness. And so I think, I mean, I think just broadly speaking, then, you know, this is so saturated into our culture that this defines really how we look at almost every relationship we have is, you know, is this person contributing to or detracting from my ability to be happy, my ability to be, you know, to reach this affected marriage and the rise of divorce culture is part of this mindset that moves away from what am I responsible for, um, to, uh, essentially this notion of, well, what I'm responsible for is my own happiness and to seek that kind of whatever, uh, whatever that might be. Uh, and so I think you see this in terms of certainly the broader culture, but even within a Christian context of, you know, who, who are you to tell me that this is the path to true flourishing? Who are you to say that this, that they're really, I think, and again, different people mean different things by

this, but, um, I think from the framework of individualism, anybody who says something like that is in a sense, like doing me harm because me harm because they're kind of setting parameters on what I can do or say or believe. Do you think part of the resistance to other people speaking into people's life is the church kind of shooting itself in the foot with some of the abuse of power and authority and people having really bad experiences in the institutionalized church? I know that that's a phrase that is what it is, but, um, or is it simply a product of, or like, would we still have the same kind of resistance to kind of outside authority if the church had a really awesome track record with like leadership and authority and stuff? really awesome track record with like leadership and authority and stuff. Yeah. No, no, definitely. I mean, I think that's, I think that's one of the,

right. Because identifying that problem is not to say that people don't abusively do those kinds of things and say, well, you have to do this or thus saith the Lord. Uh, when in fact, that's not, that's not what's going on. And so I think that's kind of the danger or maybe the opportunity with all of these different stories are kind of different ways of kind of going off one way or the other and oftentimes overcompensating. So I think a lot of people who maybe grew up with the individualism but then became a Christian actually lean on the legalism, like, oh, here it is. You just do these things. And so say, it's really hard to kind of walk this gospel way, uh, that, that avoids, um, going either the way that the broader culture does or the way that the church culture often does. Branson, I do got to run, dude. It's so good to see you. I don't know when,

I just talked to a guy in Grand Rapids. He's like, hey, when are you coming back out to Grand Rapids? I'm like, I don't have anything in the books. But yeah, next time I'm out there, man, we got to make it a point to hang out. So love you, bro. I love the work you do.

It's so like, I just, as much as I don't like to live in an echo chamber, right, and like hang around people that just agree with everything. It is nice once in a while to like, have someone like you, where I know I can like talk and like we just see that just agree with everything. It is nice once in a while to like have someone like you where I know I can like talk and like we just see eye to eye on almost virtually.

I mean, so many things. So yeah, either we're both crazy or yeah, it's probably that actually. So thanks so much again that the book is Everybody's Story, Six Myths About Sex and the Gospel Truth About Marriage and Singleness. I love your stuff on singleness. We didn't even get to that. But people who are really kind of trying to reintegrate a better theology of singleness in this talk about marriage will love your book

because you do a fantastic job on singleness in the book. So real quick, where can people find your work? Again, give me whatever websites and stuff that you want people to go to. Yeah. So if you go, you can track down the foundry at the foundrygr.org is the best way to get in touch and see what's going on. Awesome. Thanks, man. All right. Thanks. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.