Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1106: Addicted to Grace: Max Lucado

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

Max Lucado is a pastor, speaker, and author of more than 40 books that have sold over 140 million copies. Most of all, Max is a humble Christian leader who's built his legacy on being addicted to grace. His latest book God Never Gives Up On You: What Jacob's Story Teaches Us About Grace, Mercy, and God's Relentless Love releases Sept. 12th and forms the background for our conversation about God's scandalous grace.

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in the Raw merch, you need to order it very soon before it runs out. So again, click on the link in the show notes below, or you can go to theologyintheraw.com and click on the merch tab. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is the one and only Max Lucado. Max is a pastor, an author, a speaker. He is America's best-selling inspirational author with more than, check this out, you ready for this? More than 145 million, that's 145 million books in print. If his books were light years, we'd be able to reach another galaxy. I love, love, love talking to Max Criato. He's such a humble, wise, seasoned pastor, as you will see in this episode. His latest book will come out in a couple of weeks. It's called God Never Gives Up On You, What Jacob's Story Teaches Us About Grace, Mercy,

and God's Relentless Love. We talk a lot about God's scandalous grace for us in this podcast. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Max Ciccato. I think it was just about a year ago when you were on the podcast for the first time. I think it was like, yeah, last August or September. So I'm excited to talk to you again, Max. No, it's my treat. And you know, I begged my way to be in on the podcast.

I contacted my publicist. Oh, my God. I listen to this guy all the time. Anyway, you can finagle, cash in a chip or something, and see if I can talk to Preston in the podcast. Well, I thought the email was sent to the wrong person when they said, Max Lucado really wants to be on your podcast. I'm like, I know Max Lucado, but who's this Max?

This can't be the Max Lucado. So, Max, I do want to share something with you. After that podcast was released, I always get feedback on podcasts, pros, cons, whatever, you know. And almost every episode gets its mix, you know. And almost every episode gets its mix. I don't know if I've ever gotten such an overwhelming positive response as I have from that episode. And here's why. I want to be totally honest with you. The kinds of people that I talk to, relate with, the kind of people that my podcast draws, my books draws,

books draws, there's a good number that have had not the best experience in churches run by older white boomers. You hear all this, all the narcissism, all the arrogance, all the yelling and screaming. And a lot of, I don't like to use the term spiritual trauma. I think sometimes it can be over you, but they've had some just not good experiences. And I had so many people that were so blown away specifically at your humility in that podcast. And they were so incredibly encouraged by that. And I want you to know that. I mean, from people that were like, I don't think I would ever be able to listen to somebody over 60, Bible thumping, whatever. And I don't know if they assumed, but they were just like, I don't think I would ever be able to listen to somebody over 60 Bible thumping, whatever. And I don't know if they assumed, but they were just like, I cannot believe how humble Max was, his heart to really contextualize the gospel for a younger generation, the heart for the

D church, you know, and not just writing them off as being arrogant or whatever. And so anyway, I, when, when your publicist asks to have you back on, on, I would absolutely love to have you back on every month. So whenever you want to come on Theology in Raleigh, just let me know. Well, my reaction to that is I have an advantage. I can be humble because I'm such a sinner. I have an inside track on humility because I blow it so much. I'm a converted drunk. I was a profligate.

I was not the guy that I would want my daughters to go out with in the college version of Max Locato and God in his mercy. I'm not just saying that. He's just really been good to me. And I have ready reminders of how frail I can be. I get that comment, though. I not too long ago sat down with a couple of guys in their 20s, and we were talking about a lot of the topics that you discuss. them because the truth is many of my colleagues have been too heavy handed, too quick to speak and slow to listen. And it has alienated and isolated some people. And so I do apologize

on behalf of, you know, some of us older pastors. I think we could have done better. I think we could have done better. And so, yeah, I hear it. And my prayer is that God's grace is great enough to extend even to old guys like me. Well, I, again and again, appreciate that. And I do like to, as a Gen Xer, I feel like I have one foot in, you know, I get where people are coming from, the younger critiques, you know, but then I also get some of the, some of the critiques older people have of younger people, you know, like it's, you know, older Christians, you know, they're, they're giving a ton of money to missions. They care about evangelism. They, they, um, as much as people don't like the Bible thumping, I mean, older Christians I know typically are more committed to scripture. I, you know, I, that's an overstatement, but I mean— Yeah, what one person might call Bible thumping is somebody else might call serious Bible study.

Right. And so a lot of it is perspective and trying to communicate and sit down. And what one person might call having an opinion, someone else calls being judgmental. Yeah. having an opinion someone else calls being judgmental. So it's not just cut and dry, but a lot is solved with good conversations. Barry Corey is the president of Biola University. Shout out to Biola.

And he has a phrase I just love, firm center, soft edges. We need to be firm in our convictions and yet soft in maybe our tone. And that doesn't mean, and some people misinterpret our tone as being soft center. He's like, no, firm center. We're convicted. But I think he's learned over the years and others have too that people will actually be curious about that firm center if they encounter, I think, soft edges because they're so used to firm center and very abrasive, jagged edges, you know, and how we present that truth. So it's a hard balance. It's not easy, but you do it well. I get an earful every so often, not very often, but every so often I get an earful from a congregant saying, well, you need to turn it loose. You need to light the fire on. You need to turn the blowtorch on.

And they'll have their particular subculture that they're angry at or their particular political persuasion. I don't remember that happening so much early in my ministry, but it does seem more prevalent now. And I don't know. Do you think it is? And if so, where does it come from? Anecdotally, it does seem that there is more polarization, more fear. Obviously, it's in politics, but I think that has seeped down into the church and how the church has not only engaged politics, but even engaged kind of anything now. so yeah i in my again my just observation it does seem to be increasing i you know but then i i always wonder you know because we're so inundated with this online world social media and everything i almost want to separate are we talking online world are

we talking real person world because oftentimes when i talk to people face-to-face over a meal or a cup of coffee or just whatever differences we might have, we typically will – when you stare at another person's face or face-to-face, typically it's harder to kind of yell and scream. But then when you're on social media, you can yell and – it just draws out the worst in humanity. So yeah, that's why I just want to help Christians to kind of just – let's not – let's kind of divide these two worlds and maybe spend less time online and more time in the lives of real people. Dial it back. You know, my question for you, Preston, is I've listened to your podcast now for probably 18 months, and not every one, but quite a few of them, the majority of them. I admire the way you're willing to wade into the fray of tough topics, topics that will trigger an emotional response, maybe even make people feel threatened. And I admire that. And I think it's revealed to me that I'm a little thin-skinned on some topics and consequently may not have engaged to the degree that I would like to.

And I'm trying to do better at it. Help me understand. What I would like to learn from you is how to brace myself when I enter into a conversation, realizing that a good portion of those who are a part of that congregation might react in an angry fashion and might certainly disagree. certainly disagree. Man, I so appreciate that question. And I want to be as honest and vulnerable as I can. So let me just make sure I don't rush into it. I get asked this a lot, how do you handle it? Because I'm constantly addressing issues that tend to be controversial, which I'm not a controversial kind of personality. So it's not like I'm looking for that. I just, for whatever reason, I find myself in those conversations. First of all, it's harder than maybe people think. They, oh, you handle it so well and everything. But I don't sleep well at night. I think my family has encountered many levels of spiritual attacks. When I go work out at the gym, I sometimes work out really hard and it's not because I'm trying to get, I'm trying to build muscle

at 47 years old. It's because I need to just throw some weight around, you know? So, so it's not, um, it's not a cakewalk at all. Um, and yet I do, if I step outside of myself, I do think I do have a certain kind of maybe resilience that I don't, I mean, I don't want to, maybe it's cliched, but I think it comes from God. And I've always kind of had that. My parents were divorced when I was 10 years old. I don't know if I've ever shared this publicly. I mean, I've shared that publicly, but I was almost unaffected by that divorce. When my mom pulled

me over and said, your dad's leaving, I kind of shrugged my shoulders and kind of like, what's for dinner? You know, like, okay. And she was like, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. I have never, I've never shared this publicly. I've probably told this to two people in my life. I've never ever had an angry thought towards my dad or any feeling of animosity. My dad is not a Christ follower, but he's one of the most, um, he's one of the most, a man of integrity, of kindness, of grace, exhibits all these Christian characteristics as an agnostic or atheist, whatever. He has come and heard me preach and just said, that was so good. I love seeing people passionate about what they believe in. And so there's no, it's not like my lack of anger

towards my dad is like, he was such a horrible person. It was like, no, he was a very, very kind. And even to this day, like I've been in therapy, therapists have like tried to draw us like okay what's really going on they're like i there's kind of your seem healthy like so i i don't that's just weird isn't it like what i've often asked myself like what is that i i just wonder if i do have a kind of temperament that can kind of weather some of this stuff in in a way that maybe other people haven't been wired but it's say that, and again, it hasn't been easy. I would say, here's a couple of things, and I'll throw it back to you. I've tried to look past and through some of the angry, vitriol, dehumanizing attacks and all this stuff. I've tried to look through that to the potential pain that is driving that. If someone's angry at me

because they disagree with my position or whatever, I do my best to present my views with as much clarity and grace and nuance as I possibly can, but I'll still say no, but here's what I believe. And that's, you know, I think this is the Bible teaches. I think God's created marriage to be between a man and a woman and people get all upset about it. What am I going to do? I think scripture is God breathed, creator revealed his will to us. This is as best I see it, here's why. And people will still get very angry at that. But then I think, I wonder, it's very possible that somebody very much who maybe looks like me, talks like me, believes the same things that I do. Maybe they have actually had someone in their life that I kind of represent that has done some serious,

said some really shameful things to them, really harmed them. Maybe they've been through some kind of spiritual, physical, or even sexual abuse or something that maybe I'm triggering by saying things that maybe that person might... So I get that the angry, harsh responses that I encounter are usually fueled by legitimate pain and some kind of something in their life. That's what I want to go into and say, man, that's just, you know, I think Christ weeps over those situations and I try to do so as well. But that doesn't come easy. People say, your books are so gracious. I'm like, well, you should have read the first seven drafts that were me yelling and screaming and being defensive.

And so it doesn't... I'm the first one to say it doesn't come natural. I've just truly tried to learn to present things in maybe a kinder way. Again, not soft convictions, firm convictions, but with soft, soft edges. I don't know if that's the answer. Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, I know it must be tough. I know it must be tough. I think one day I texted you and I said, are you covered in Teflon? And then someone reminded me Teflon's not used anymore. So already I was dated. I get it. I get it. No, he's already, I've been dated. Um,

so yeah, my, my response is I thank God for your willingness to tackle topics like the ones you tackle, uh, the identities, the transgender questions, the gay marriage question, the eternal suffering questions, you know, the questions that are, they're really, these are important conversations. And you model for us a way to do it with clear thinking and by presenting both sides of the issue and then coming to your own conclusion without demanding that others who don't agree with you or somehow less than. And so I thank you for your willingness to do that. And it must be a calling. You know, I think there is a divine calling sometimes that people might say, you know, typically I would never go to the Amazon jungle to live. But, boy, that's a calling. I can't not do it.

That's a calling. It's not pleasant. It may not even be something that you ever aspired to do, but it just fuels you. Somebody is stoking that engine in your heart. And like I say, you can't not do it. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy or pleasant, but I think that that's a calling. And I'm thankful that you're living up to that calling. I appreciate that.

I don't use that language lightly, but I would agree with you. I distinctly remember one morning waking up. It was right when I had submitted my manuscript for my first book, People to Be Loved. This was back in 2014, 2015. And is back in, must've been 2014, 2015 and thinking, okay, I've kind of wrapped the bow on this topic. I feel like I kind of understand what I think, you know, and I'm going to move on to something else. Well, that was eight, nine years ago. And here I am. And I remember feeling, and again, I rarely talk like this, but I remember feeling just like, whether I want to keep talking about this is almost

irrelevant. Like my wife says, why do you want to keep doing this? I'm like, I almost looked at her like, I don't, that's almost an irrelevant, my response is almost irrelevant. I do feel this sense of, I am called again. And I don't use that language lightly. I am, I do feel like I need to keep doing this. And, you know, God's given me, I, one thing to add, I guess, to is, you know, how to weather the criticism is 90% of the responses I get are off the chart, heart-wrenching, positive affirmation, you know? Um, I mean, I, I can't tell you that the, yeah, I mean, just, just the, the, the sheer volume of, of meaningful responses of all across the board, even from people that disagree. Yeah. I've got, I've got like, you know, several,

I wrote this book on transgender identities. You know, I said some things in there that they, you know, have been offensive to people. People very much disagree. They, they, and yet I've had trans people that say, I don't agree with where you're at on some of the things here, but I so appreciate how you've gone about the conversation, you know? And, and, uh, yeah, I can't put a price tag on, on all the positive. If I didn't, if I only got the negative, I don't think I would be, that'd be like, why am I doing this? I'm just making everybody mad, you know? But I think the meaningful feedback is, is, does really, really keep me going. But, um, I would love to throw it back on you, Max.

You wrote this. I mean, you've written so many books. Your latest one, God Never Gives Up on You, What Jacob's Story Teaches Us About Grace, Mercy, and God's Relentless Love. I am loving this book. I get sent a ton of books like you do, and I can only read maybe 5% of them. But I picked this one up because I love your writing style. And first of all, I have a huge heart for the theme of grace

in the Old Testament. That's why I was like, oh, I really want to check this book out. It is so, so good. I have so many questions. Let's start with the writing style piece, because as a writer to a writer, you are able to take these ancient stories and make them extremely contemporary. And one might even say you take liberties. You'll describe Jacob's personality in ways that I'm like, well, that's not in the text, but you're kind of drawing out, you're teasing out what this maybe would have looked like in a modern day situation. Can you speak to that? Where did you make the decision to say, you know, I'm going to draw this out, take some liberties, but my goal is to try to get people inside the text. Is that the motivation or what motivates you in that kind of writing style?

Well, I love to write. I really do. I love writing and was impressed early on when I would read some of the works by Frederick Buechner. You remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Never met him in person. Never did. He's passed on into heaven. But his he he bordered on irreverent, you know, in a little book called Peculiar Treasures. And then the other, the ABCs of Grace, they really are great. They're great. And he seemed to enjoy envisioning what was happening in the Bible. And I had never read anything like that. This is back in the, my first book came out like in 85. And so I would have been reading Buechner back in the mid 80s. And so I either credit or blame him for this approach.

And I think it's great to engage. You know, the Bible, the narrative of the Bible is a lot of stories. I know there are some didactic teachings, but there's a lot of stories. And so there's a lot of room for imagination. But there's a lot of stories. And so there's a lot of room for imagination. And I like to try to imagine what Jacob would have been like. I do picture him as kind of the guy wearing that poker visor, maybe with the cigar hanging out of the corner of his mouth, maybe shorter than Isaac and than Abraham. You know, in the in the in the image of the patriarchs, he doesn't quite fit

in. He's this shifty guy. He's the guy always trying to cut the deal and work around the system. I think that's why I love Jacob. I think he's so fascinating. Writing about him was really a

lot of fun. If I offend the readers, I'm sorry. Do you ever get critiques along those lines? I can imagine some people like, that's on the Bible or whatever. Yeah. You know, Preston, I think I've been at it so long that people who are critical of me have long since. I have a funny story. I have a funny story. I was actually playing golf about three or four years ago, and I got put in a group. I got an idea, got put in a foursome. We got put in with two other guys.

And while we were playing golf, one of the other guys said, your name is, you're not that writer, are you? You're not that writer. And I never quite know how to respond. I said, well, there's not many Locatos out there. It must be me. He said, well, my mother warned me about you. And she took your books and burned them in a bonfire. I said, what? I've never been burned before. And he said, yeah, she just thinks you go too far on this grace stuff. And so I have gotten burned. But by and large, those people who might be critical, they either don't know where I am anymore or they've given up. I love how you begin the book. You tell people not to read this if they have everything figured out, if they're squeaky clean, if they never question their faith, if they use pearlygate.com as their email address. if they use pearlygate.com as their email address. Like right out of the gate.

You're like, if you're kind of, Michael Jr. is a Christian comedian and I love his little bit on being over-saved, you know? You know, like, hey, has anybody seen my keys? Well, you just need the keys to the kingdom. I didn't drive a kingdom here. I'm just trying to get home, you know? And I love how you right away say, just prepare people, like just, you know, buckle up. We're going to go for a kingdom here. I'm just trying to get home. And I love how you right away say, just prepare people, like just buckle up. We're going to go for a ride here. And if you don't

need to dive into grace, then maybe this book, if you don't think you need grace, then maybe this book isn't for you. But years ago, I was teaching Old Testament survey at a Christian college and then another Bible college. And I remember a couple years into teaching survey over and over, I was going through a lot of stuff in my life where I was just kind of hit rock bottom, burned out, apathetic, apathetic about being apathetic. That's a terrible place to be. We're like, yeah, apathetic. You know what? I don't care. And I just had this renewed encounter with God's grace that just kind of took it to a new level. And I remember after that teaching the same Old Testament survey course,

but really it's almost like just my eyes were just open to this almost fresh story of God's red hot pursuit of people running from him, of bestowing grace on people grumbling in the wilderness and putting up with Israel over and over and over and using seemingly unusable people. Abraham, man of faith, yeah, but loads of junk, you know, loads of skeletons in that dude's closet. And Jacob is, you know, even more. And yeah, there are the daniels and josephs and nehemiahs and some the ezra's you know they yeah they seem to have their stuff a little more together you know and god uses them too but by and large god is using people you would not expect him to use um can you maybe just for people that maybe are like well how does this play on the jake can you just maybe summarize the j the Jacob story and some highlights of how this theme –

People aren't real acquainted with the Jacob story because there's not as much written. Go online to order some good Jacob books. You'll find a bunch of Moses books, a bunch of Abraham books, a bunch of, like you said, Nehemiah books and prophecy. Not that there's not any – not that they don't exist, but they're just not in abundance. I don't know why that is. I've wondered if he does, we don't quite know how to preach him. You know, I think I have a line in the book that we don't quite know what to do with Jacob, but we love Jacob because we don't quite know what to do with him. He reminds us of ourselves. He's very human. He's the every man, every woman. He's the person of scripture that never his cheese keeps

falling off his crackers. He can't quite get it together. And so his story begins, you know, he's born only a second after his twin brother Esau, and he comes out holding Esau, comes out of the womb, holding his brother's heel, which is really just a triumph of irony because that's how he spends his life, trying to pull people back so he can get ahead. There's this mysterious revelation that his mother has that the older will serve the younger. that his mother has that the older will serve the younger. And so she has a sense that the firstborn position is going to be flip-flopped somehow, but rather than wait to see how God is going to make that happen, they take matters in their own hands. And we're off and running. Jacob convinces Esau to sell his birthright. Jacob then lies to his father. And then Rebekah says, hurry and get out of town because your brother's got a knife. He's coming

after you. And off goes Jacob, traipsing across the wilderness in search of his uncle Laban. And that's when the ladder from heaven comes down. And then Jacob marries the wrong daughter of Laban. I mean, it's just entertaining. It's very entertaining. And you have these moments of when you would say, now, God's going to give up on Jacob. You don't walk away from him. Because at any point, Jacob could have, should have gone back and said, hey, I messed this all up. Dad, I'm sorry. Esau, I'm sorry. Let's see if we can't work this through. But never. He never does that. He keeps making mistakes. And then he keeps enduring the consequences of his mistakes.

And we walk away, I think, with the reason that Jacob's story is in the Bible. It's not to make a big deal out of Jacob, but to really make a big deal out of the faithfulness of God. He never gave up on him. He never did. You know, one of the final stories in the life of Jacob is that brutal slaughter in the village of Shechem. Oh, what do we do with that story? I've never heard a sermon on that story in my life, and I know why. Because preachers don't know what to do with that story? I've never heard a sermon on that story in my life, and I know why, because preachers don't know what to do with that story. The raping of the daughter, the brutality,

the brothers going rambo on the village in retaliation, the passivity of Jacob, there seems to be no redeeming element in that story. And yet the very next chapter is God reiterating his promise to Jacob. He has him from Shekel back to Bethlehem. He restates his promise, restates his covenant. And I just think the big takeaway, Preston, is that for the Jacobs in the world, you can have hope, you can have faith. God won't give up on you. He really won't. And he's the hero of that story. Hey friends, it's Chris Sprinkle here. Preston and I are always looking for ways that we can help empower vulnerable people.

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That really is a summary, obviously, of the whole Bible. I think sometimes people think, Old Testament, all about works and law and judgment. And there's a lot of that, you know, but there's just such a rich, rich, sustained theme of grace that I think it's, do you think it's because most Christians are pre-programmed to kind of go to the Old Testament for illustrations of how to be a good person, you know, which is why, you know, the Daniels and the Abrahams and even abraham i think i'm like if we read that story closely i don't think we necessarily use them as a pinnacle of like you know robust holiness but um is that what it is we're constantly like we think the old testament is kind of a you know a repertoire of examples how to be a good

person and then we kind of like cringe a little bit when we look at mostly stories so we we're kind of limited to a few that maybe stand out or. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, come on, let's look at some of these characters. I know David is a hero, but the guy seduced a woman and had her husband murdered. Come on. I know Abraham's a hero, but Abraham lied about his wife, called her his sister to save his own neck. I know there's some amazing accomplishments of the family of Jacob, not the least of which is the tribe of Judah, through which David was born, through which Jesus came. astounding. But you talk about a family of dysfunction. Two wives, two handmaidens, kids born through all four, yammering, scampering, fighting with one another. Finally, to the point they're going to kill their brother Joseph.

But had they not been slightly greedier than they were bloodthirsty, he would have died being ended up in the pit and then became the prince of Egypt. And so it's out of these stories of raw humanity that we, like you say, we see God as the hero here. God's the faithful. God's the one who had to convince Moses that he could lead the children of Israel. God's the one who had to choose not to give up on the children of Israel. When those who had witnessed all of those plagues, who had walked on dry ground through the Red Sea, when those who had just had a meal of manna and a meal of quail were complaining that God wasn't taking care of them and dared to say, I think we should just go back to Egypt. Come on. I would pull my hair out. I would give up on those

people. So I think you're nailing it spot on. The Old Testament is rich. It drips. It's a Niagara of God's grace. He makes a covenant. He keeps it. And the New Testament is just a new display or new dispensation era or age of that grace. I love seeing grace in ways that aren't as transparent as maybe other sections in the Old Testament. For example, since we're on Genesis, you have the Joseph story, begins in Genesis 37, ends in Genesis 50. And Joseph is one of these characters that seems to have, for the most part, has it together. He does marry the daughter of a pagan priest, which goes directly against Jewish law. There's questions about him bragging about his coat,

as he being whatever. But for the most part, you know, man of integrity. But what's interesting, the juxtaposition of Genesis 37, the introduction to Joseph, where he has a high moral character, and Genesis 38, which kind of comes out of nowhere. Genesis 38 is all about, you know, Judah and his sons are kind of messed up. And then one guy, you know, they keep dying because they're so bad. And long story short, Judah ends up having sexual relations with his daughter, his Canaanite daughter-in-law, because he thought she was a prostitute. There is nothing. He gets her pregnant with twins. And God says, okay, I can work with that.

It's through one of the lines of his two twins from his daughter-in-law, because he thought he should be, that he sends the Messiah. What I find fascinating is that story seems to be juxtaposed to Joseph. Joseph is glow of holiness on him in Genesis 37. Then you have the opposite in Genesis 38, but it's through Judah, not Joseph, that the line of the Messiah comes through. I have to think that that is on a literary level. You're a writer. I'm a writer. That's intentional. You don't put those two stories together unless you're trying to make a point. I think the point is we should try to live like Joseph. But when we live like Judah, God is not done with us.

He can still work through us and redeem us and redeem any mess. There's so much of that in the Old Testament. I just backed that one up one generation. You're right to point out that the lineage came through Judah. You're right to point out that the lineage came through Judah. And remember that Judah was the son of Leah, Rachel and Leah. And so Leah, this is that great story of Jacob going to Laban and immediately being smitten by the beauty of Rachel. the beauty of Rachel. And Rachel's name, if I understand correctly, is derived from E-W-E, you, you know, a beautiful little gentle lamb. She was a shepherdess. She was beautiful. She was not dead gorgeous, so much so that he was willing to work seven years for her hands.

for her hands. Laban, who was even more of a trickster than Jacob, staged the greatest switcheroo in the history of the Bible because Jacob went to the wedding tent thinking he was going to consummate the marriage with Rachel, and he woke up next to Leah. How does that happen unless a guy's just been so drunk, he doesn't know what's going on. Again, here's a patriarch. Here's Jacob, whose name will become Israel. And so he has to work another seven years so he can be with Rachel. And this dysfunctional family begins. begins, but Leah is the one through whom the lineage, the covenant lineage passes. So Leah, the unwanted sister, who may have been the less attractive sister, certainly in Jacob's eyes she was, is the one through whom the lineage continues. And it's just one of those little stories of grace, little stories of grace. Yeah, Jacob, you messed up. Yeah. And Laman,

you messed up. But you know what? I've got a plan that I'm going to use this for. It's over and over and over in the Old Testament, through the whole Bible, really. How do you respond to the critique? I'm sure you get. You mentioned the book-burning lady, and I'm sure there's been others, maybe on a lesser fiery scale. How do you respond to the people saying, well, if you push this grace thing too far,

you're just going to motivate people to live like hell and ask God for forgiveness later. You'll help people to sin so that grace may abound, to quote Romans 6. How do you respond to that critique? Well, I say that the Apostle Paul was accused of the same thing. He must have been accused from the same thing, or we wouldn't have the very scripture that you said, because people were saying, what shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? And with the strongest possible negation in Greek, he says, by no means, by no means. So my response to the people who say that is, okay, thank you. I've just been put in the camp of the greatest theologian in history.

But I do say that's really a consequence of grace. But I do say that's really a consequence of grace, that grace can be so great that we would be tempted to take license with it. And that is a misapplication of grace. But that is part of the thought process of learning what grace is. As we mature in grace, we begin to understand that grace appropriately received creates a holiness desired. God would love me this much. It's kind of like my wife. We've been married for 42 years, celebrated recently. And to be quite honest, I always think I'm married out of my league.

And it inspires me. She would marry me. It inspires me to want to be a better husband. So I get it. I think it's kind of a kindergarten response to grace. You know, I can, oh, good, good. I get to do whatever I want. But as we grow in our faith, we mature out of that,

and we realize the price Christ paid, and we would never want to insult that gift by taking advantage. And true and beautiful doctrines can be misused. So the question is, could it be misused, but is it true and beautiful? And I would also say, I don't always like the yeah, but you kind of response, but I would say, okay, let's look at the other pendulum swing. People that are all these strict boundaries and legalism and everything, and those environments, sin usually abounds. It's just never admitted. It's just covered up.

I mean, there's some of the most darkest, heinous sins that exist in these hyper-legalistic environments, you know, where they put on this plastic smile because you're not allowed to sin or whatever. And then all you do is sin in secret. And you have some of the worst marriages that show up on Sunday morning with smiley faces, you know, and abuse, as we know now, abuse coverups and all these things can exist in very conservative kind of more obedience or not obedience, but like works oriented environment. So yeah, people who resist grace say, well, it's just too risky. And what they're saying behind that is it'd be better if we just controlled people, control

them with rules and regulations. But that doesn't work. I mean, that's exactly the religion that Jesus was, that angered Jesus. When we reduce our relationship with God down to rule keeping, that troubled him. That's why he stood up on behalf and defended the woman, you know, caught in the act of adultery or befriended Zacchaeus. That's why he was a lover of the marginalized people, because he saw what rule keeping had done to them. And so I think, yeah, grace can be risky, but legalism is deadly. And so I would much rather be in the camp of grace. I've tried legalism.

I've tried it myself, and it did not work, and it does not work. I read a study a while back put out by Lifeway on the religious background of women who have gotten an abortion. I was shocked. I don't have the stats in front of me, so somebody can just go Google Lifeway study on abortion, something like that. You should take you right to it. conservative, a lot of Baptist, conservative Baptist or Baptist-like kind of church environments getting abortions because the thought of having sex outside of marriage, making a whatever bad decision or in some being a victim of sexual assault or whatever, the thought of confessing

that or talking about that was worse than just going in secret and aborting the baby. And I'm like, that, that is, I guess, one example of the negative byproduct of this potentially oppressive kind of legalistic, where if you do mess up, there's such fear of confessing that it ends up producing, doesn't produce holiness. It produces something in this case, a lot of really tragic, tragic things. So yeah, I don't think legalism works really well. I like the definition that the church needs to be the safe place to hear the risky message. And the risky message, the risky message is, would you be willing to admit you're a sinner and you need forgiveness? Would you say yes, that the baby in the manger was actually the son of God and that when he died on the cross, he died for you. But when he rose from the dead, he rose

for you. That's the risky message right there. Would you be willing? Because it can, I mean, it can rock your world, but it's a safe place. We're going to wrestle with this together. world, but it's a safe place. We're going to wrestle with this together. Understand it may be difficult. Understand there are struggles in understanding the authority of Scripture. Understand you've got some stuff in your past that we have to talk through and work through. But like your friend said, let's be, what was the word, strong in the center, but soft on the edges. Firm center, soft edges. Firm center, soft edges. Firm center. So our firm center is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Right there. That's where we're going to try to do our best to be strong in the grace of Christ. On the edges, we're going to work through these other things together. Let's make the church a place where you can confess how difficult that is or how much you screwed up in your life or you don't have to play games. And that's really the tragedy. And that is when the church becomes a place where you have to put on, you have to hide who you really are, you know, to find the message that can change your life. I'm curious because it's one thing to integrate a robust kind of theology of grace as the foundation for our individual spiritual lives. It's another thing to help establish this in the culture of a church.

You've been a pastor. I mean, you pastored a church, several churches in different parts of the country, but in San Antonio, Texas, a large church for many, many years. How have you prioritized the theme of grace in your church culture? Because this is, it's hard to cultivate a church culture, I would imagine, where there is vulnerability and confession and honesty and a true public reliance on God's grace. How's that gone for you in ministry? You're assuming I've done it successfully. I don't know. I mean, honestly, I don't know. When I first entered the ministry, I came to this church in 1988, and somebody gave me a book, Charles Spurgeon's Lessons to His Students.

And it's a very good book. It's very good. And I believe that's where I first read that sentence. Preach like there's a broken heart on every pew. We don't have pews anymore. Most churches don't have pews. But the message is still the same. Preach like your house, your church sanctuary is full of broken hearts because it really is. It really is.

So if I have done well, Preston, and again, I'm not saying I have, but if I have, it's because I've tried to take that tone into every sermon. I don't think people have to be convinced that they've messed up. I just don't think they do. I don't think they really, I really don't think there, there are a few hard-hearted, willingly wicked people out there. Yeah. But most of the people who enter a church building are not the willingly wicked, but they have this wickedness or this evil bent or this temptation or this tendency or proclivity within them, and they can't figure out why, can't figure out why and what to do with it. And our job, I think, is to say, okay, that happened because we're disconnected from our creator, but we can be reconnected with him and explain the gospel. And so, again, if I've done it well is because we've tried to come into every service sermon with that tone, kind of that tone. I've wondered if I should have been more direct, though, through the years. I

talked to a dear friend of mine who's a wonderful pastor. And he said, you need to make it harder, Max. You need to make, he was being very direct with me. See, you need to make it harder. He was not being critical. And so I hear what he's saying. He's saying we need to expect, you know, a level of moral behavior out of our church and out of people. So I wrestle with that, Preston. I don't, I think it's a continuum, you know, and out of people. So I wrestle with that, Preston. I think it's a continuum, you know, and you land somewhere. Yeah, I wrestle with it too, because I think Jesus calls us to a narrow road, to pick up our cross, to a life that could and often will involve suffering and self-denial, and the road is narrow if you will find it. Like these statements

are not, they're found very frequently in scripture. There's this radical call to holiness to have this uncomfortable encounter with the risen Lord of the universe. A hundred percent, I agree with all that. I also see this thick theme of grace and somehow I don't think they're at odds. I think we, if our, I think in our human minds and our fragility, I think we're like, oh, only one can be true. And so we try to lean on one or the other. But I'm like, I just wonder if by God's design, relying on this truly scandalous radical grace is the only foundation we can have to pursue this radical call. As you said, I mean, I think the spouse

analogy is really good. Like, you know, if you feel just so utterly undeservingly loved by your spouse, are you going to be more or less motivated to serve your spouse well, you know, or any relationship, you know, not just for married people. But I do wonder if true, heartfelt, radical obedience isn't really going to be as possible unless it stands on this foundation of God's unconditional red-hot grace towards people who don't deserve it. And we have all these Christian cliches, and maybe we need to use different language to kind of alert people to the radicality of God's grace. Maybe we need to use different language to kind of alert people to the radicality of God's grace. Could I come at it from one more angle? I know our time is going to get away, but I love this conversation. It seems to me that belief precedes behavior.

And I think you could make a good argument if you look at the epistles, If you look at the epistles that the Apostle Paul devoted the early section of his epistles to establishing belief, you know, the first half of Romans, the first two chapters of Ephesians, the preeminence of Christ in the early part of Colossians. So he he lays down this foundation of here's who God is. Here's how we see God. Here's what God has done for us. Then he pivots. Knowing this then, and he goes into what would be very practical application, you know, of forgiving your neighbor, loving your spouse, paying your bills, going to work.

But it seems to me that his strategy is start with belief, build belief, and then let it spill over into behavior. If my philosophy, my little idea is true, and I'd love for you to react to that, the danger would be in flip-flopping that, or skipping it, skipping the belief part and always going to the behavior. You should do, you must do. We have to be talking more about what we do without emphasizing what God has done. So I think grace starts with God, but then leads to that new person, a description of that new person. Belief precedes behavior. What do you think? I think it's very clear in Paul's letters, the two that stand out the most, I guess, are the ones you referenced. Romans

really one through, you could say 11, are largely focused on God's grace. Really? Oh, yeah. And you know that pivot in chapter 12, kind of like this therefore, and then chapter 12 alone has a litany of all these like, do this, do that, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

Ephesians 1 to 3 pivots in chapter 4, verse 1. And Ephesians 1 to 3 is some of the most lofty expressions of grace. Lofty. Yeah. And yet if all we had was Ephesians 1 to 3 is some of the most lofty expressions of grace. Yeah. And yet if all we had was Ephesians 4 to 6, we'd think, gosh, Paul really cares a lot about our holiness and obedience. You know, it's like, well, yeah. And that's impossible without chapters 1 to 3. So, yeah, I think it's, yeah, we can go on and on.

I think it's all through scripture where the grace is the foundation. Obedience is the response. You can't have one without the other. Max, I so appreciate this conversation. My time just flies by. Again, the book is God Never Gives Up On You. I have a pre-release copy. Is this out yet now or when does it come out? September 12th. Okay. I think this will drop probably, people are probably listening right now in probably late August. So you can pre-order the book now. And yeah, I know you've written a ton of books. And so people might be like, oh, which one should I read? And I can't answer that question. But all I know is if you're hungering for to really marinate in a really colorful, engaging, fun, and yet deep book on God's grace in, in the Jacob story.

I mean, it's, it's, it's a fantastic book. I'm not done with it yet. So I'm, I said part of my devotional reading right now is you read some, some scripture,

pray, and then, and I'm working through your book. So thank you, Max. All the best friend. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.