Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1118: Worry Free Parenting: Sissy Goff

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

Sissy Goff, LPC-MHSP, has worked as the director of child and adolescent counseling at Daystar Counseling Ministries since 1993. Sissy Goff is the author of 13 books including her latest, The Worry-Free Parent. She co-hosts the popular Raising Boys and Girls podcast, with fellow Daystar Counselor David Thomas. In this podcast conversation, which was hosted by Chris Sprinkle, Chris and Sissy talk about many things related to parenting including the problem of safetyism and the rising rates of anxiety among kids. If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Sissy Goff, who has worked as the Director of Child and Adolescent Counseling at Daystar Counseling Ministries since 1993. She's the author of 13 books, including her latest book, The Worry-Free Parent. For this episode, you're not going to hear from me. You're going to hear from my wife, Chris Sprinkle, who conducted this interview because it's a topic she's very, very much interested in and very knowledgeable about. And so she's going to host this conversation. So please welcome to the show, well, my wife, Chris Sprinkle, as host and also her guest, Sissy Goff. All right, good morning. I'm here with Sissy. How are you?

I'm good. How are you? Doing so good. I am so excited about this interview this morning. Thank you. I am a parent, and I worry. Imagine that. I think the two are synonymous these days. I know. Well, when we got the request to have you on the show, Preston was like, do you want to do this interview? I'm like, yes. How old are your kids? So I have three girls and then a boy and they're 20, 18, 16, and 14. Wow. Okay. You're in the thick of it in a lot of the stages of the older ranges of things. We are. So it's like learning how to, you know, parent adults. And

so our oldest daughter just got married three months ago too. So, you know, just trying to, yeah, manage how, how do you be a parent to adults and then ones that are leaving the nest and then some that are still, it's a lot harder. I mean, I thought it was, it's easier when, you know, these are the rules, this is how we do it. But then when you're like navigating, letting them decide, that's hard. It is hard. Yes. It's easier when Candyland will heal a lot of things. Yep. So yeah. So tell us a little bit about yourself before we jump into the book that you've written. Yes. So I am Sissy Goff, and I am the executive director and a full-time therapist at a place

called Daystar Counseling in Nashville, Tennessee, where I've been counseling kids and families for 30 years now, which I can't even believe I could do anything for 30 years. And it's an amazing place where we are in a yellow house with a white picket fence. I have a dog that counsels with me every single day. She's sitting by me right now. And we have, I think, 2,000 families that are coming to Daystar currently. And out of that work that I love so dearly. I have had the privilege of writing some books and speaking and have a podcast of our own. And just, yeah, I'm grateful for, I don't know, to be able to speak into what's going on culturally in our world today that feels so rampant that is anxiety,

which is what I know we're going to be talking about some this morning. And so you have a bunch of counselors that are at your practice as well? We do. I think we have 13 humans and five dogs. Yeah. I was so impressed in the opening of your book and you talk about your practice and how it just, it feels like a really nice feeling. You said that you have the popcorn maker that's going and it's, it made me feel as I was reading it, like the kids love coming. Like it was a nice feeling having the animals around. Is it dogs and cats you probably have? No cats. No cats, just dogs. They're just a little harder to control in so many allergies, but dogs, yes. And you're

right. I mean, it's fun. I don't think in the 30 years I've been at Daystar, we have not advertised anything to get people to come, but kids tell each other because they love it. My favorite quote, a little girl walked out of the building with her mom after I'd seen her. And she said, you know, mom, I don't really go to Daystar for counseling. I just go there to talk about my problems. Oh, wow. Yeah. Isn't that sweet? I mean, it's so much of who we want to be is for kids to feel like we're coming alongside them and offering great tools. But it is really relational. It's a pretty neat place.

And so do you specialize mostly in like under teens or anywhere from kids through teens? All ages. Primarily, I mean, we have some play therapists, so we do a little bit younger than eight, but mostly about eight to 18. And then I do a lot of work with parents too. And so what's your degree background? How did you get into counseling? Well, so I'm a good bit older than you are.

And when I was growing up, the funny thing is I did not know a person in counseling, had never heard anyone talk about it. I mean, zero exposure to it in the early eighties. And in, when I was a junior in high school, my favorite show was days of our lives. And there was a child psychologist on days of our lives, who was literally the first person I ever encountered in the mental health world. Isn't that funny? Yeah, that is funny. I know. And so I think I thought, well, that could be really cool. And so as happens, you know, with God, a door, a door open, and then the next door open, and then the next door open. And I love my psychology classes the most in my undergrad and then applied to Vanderbilt for grad school

and got into Vanderbilt and loved the program that was human development counseling. So studying across the lifespan. And then I did an internship interview at Daystar and came to our fundraiser we have at Christmas and Amy Grant was singing, who was just my favorite growing up. So that was like, ah. And then I remember them saying, the person that I read in college that probably most made me interested in counseling was Larry Crabb. And I remember them saying there that Larry Crabb said that Melissa, who's the founding director, senior director of Daystar, that she was the best counselor in the country for adolescents. And so I thought, well, I can't imagine anyone I'd rather study under. And so anyway, did my internship in 1993 and I've been there ever since. Wow. That's amazing. And so you, and do you have kids of your own? I don't. I have two little nephews that live three blocks away that I get to help raise a lot and a sister who is 16 years younger than I am. So I feel like I'm partially helping with both of them, but just have helped with, I don't know how many thousands over the

30 years of doing this. Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. And so how, so this is not your first book. You've written several other books. And so how did you get to writing this book? So it's The Worry-Free Parent, but you've also written some other books for others. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yes. So this is my 13th book, well, including the workbook. And I have typically written just out of what I'm seeing as the need the most in my counseling office. And so a few years ago, the rates of anxiety among kids were just skyrocketing. It was one in, well, it's now one in three kids with girls twice as likely as boys. Interestingly enough, boys are taken in to get help more, which is fascinating. And so I have been working with so many kids who are anxious in the last

few years. And in the last, I think really since COVID, I have never encountered as many parents who I think feel discouraged, defeated, feel as much like failures. Behind the closed doors of confidentiality in my office are talking about getting really angry and I think have anxiety at the root of all of that. And so it just felt like this feels like the next thing I want to address is not just how to help parents help their kids because that's important. But I think truly the best thing a parent can do for their kids is to work through their own stuff. Yes, I know. I was reading that and you have a big section on that is that, you know, we're so focused on our kids and what's going on, why are they this? And then you really like digging into the parents couple years, there's an increase with kids, do you feel like it's also that's where there's been an increase in parents?

Or is it maybe that it's somehow it has triggered the kids, you know, much more? Yes, all of it. Yeah. I mean, I think definitely I think parents are more anxious than ever before. And I think parents have changed a lot in the last five years, even if we weren't including COVID in that conversation. But I also think COVID has made kids more anxious. I mean, there are a lot of factors going into it, but we're now also one in three adults with women twice as likely. So it really is rampant in our world today. And the thing I talk about in the book that's hard about it is it does tend to spread. And sometimes I think it spreads from child to parent, but it definitely spreads from

parent to child. And so are you, I mean, are you linking most of it to COVID or just more? Well, so something that was interesting that I wanted to think of, like, you know, I think you mentioned just that we are, okay, it was that we are more, we're ready for just answers kind of right away. Do you know what I'm talking about, the section? Yes. And it made me think just like post-internet and just texting and everything, right? We're used to just getting answers right away.

So it's like then if our kids don't answer right away, then we're like, what are you doing? Oh, they maybe got an accident. So do you feel like just that has just increased so much anxiety just because we know that we should get... Tell me a little bit about that section. I'm spacing on how your wording was with that. No, yes. I think that's definitely a part of it. I think there is this immediate gratification in a lot of ways.

We see what we're looking for. We can get answers to things much more quickly than any generation has gotten answers to everything before we just Google it. And so I do think there's that sense of delay that increases our panic a lot of times. And I think, so yes, I think that plays into it. I mean, I think for kids, COVID has definitely made kids more anxious. And I think for parents today, COVID has played into it. I also think I mean, I'm in Nashville and was very involved with the Covenant School shooting when that happened.

I mean, obviously, things like that are increasing our anxiety. when that happened. I mean, obviously things like that are increasing our anxiety. And I think too, part of what's going on is, you know, I don't think a lot of us grew up with parents who were having really healthy, robust conversations about emotions. You know, I don't think we were passing feelings charts around our dinner tables, which is what I hope a lot of parents are doing today, talking about three things we felt that day. And so what I'm seeing is the swing of parents honestly trying to overcompensate for what they felt like their parents didn't give them. Let me give you an example of this. So as we've kind of established, Daystar, my office is, honestly, it's really cute. I mean, if kids are coming for counseling, I know it's going to do

a lot of the work of helping them feel at home. And so I had this little girl who was coming in for the first time and I could tell on my computer program that we use for scheduling that she was coming in for anxiety. She was eight, seven and eight are the average age of onset for anxiety. And so I came down the stairs of the Daystar house and you can tell on this video, I have a really big smile. And so I smiled at the little girl sitting across the way and waved at her and she smiled really big and waved at me. And I walked over and said, Hey, I'm sissy. I'm so excited that you're at Daystar. I'm going to take you on a tour of the Daystar house. And then we're going to go upstairs and meet my little dog named Lucy, who is going to

love you. And this precious little girl popped up out of her chair to follow me on the tour. And her mom grabbed her arm and said, do you feel comfortable with that? Oh, wow. Yeah, right. She was bringing her to me for counseling. You would think, you know, there would be a comfort level. She just put in a fear, just instilled a fear. There you go.

Exactly. And so this sweet little girl followed me on the tour. The mom followed us too. And then I brought the little girl into my office and shut the door. And the mom sat right across from my door, I think watching it the entire time I was with her daughter. And so I sent the little girl out and brought the mom in. Before starting counseling?

Well, I finished with the little girl. But right away with the mom, I said, tell me about your family history, knowing probably what the answer was going to be. And she said, well, I had anxiety when I was growing up and my parents never understood me. And so now I'm determined to understand her, which is exactly what she was doing. She was hitting it out of the park on understanding and empathizing, but she wasn't giving her tools.

And every person in the mental health field that works with folks who have anxiety, kids or adults would say to work through our anxiety, we have to do the thing that makes us anxious. And so I'm seeing parents step in, I think, out of their own anxiety and rescue their kids. And in all this research on anxiety, the definition I came up with is that anxiety is an overestimation of the problem and an underestimation of ourselves. And so when we step in and rescue a child from something that's scaring them, we're basically saying, yep, you're right. It's too big and you're too small. You can't handle it. So you have to have me step

in who can and fix it for you. And that's never the message a parent would want to give. That's not what they're trying to communicate, but it's what's received from the child. So I think that's adding in to your bigger question. I think that's adding into. Yeah. So in that same situation, the mom could have been like, you've got this, you could go because she's like there, like she's there asking, you know, she brought her. So do you feel like, so let's just say even a situation where, you know, mom can't get a hold of the child, the teenager who's out and, you know, maybe 10 minutes in, now sending like more, like stronger texts. Do you feel like that is just instilling anxiety in them? instilling anxiety in them or like what? Well, I would say if you have a child who's going somewhere on their own and they're old enough to text you, my guess is they're probably already driving. And so I think in that case, your child is either going to be more anxious or they're going to be

really annoyed and it's going to make things harder on your relationship. Because I feel like kids, when that is happening, when I'm picking up on that in my office, I think the kids feel honestly too much power. They feel like their parents aren't okay. And so I think that sometimes can, there's this funny thing that happens that I don't have a scientific definition for this, but what I've experienced in counseling is when kids feel stronger emotionally than their parents, they end up resenting their parents a lot of times, because I think there's this inherent sense of you're supposed to be stronger than I am. And so something's flipped upside down.

And so one of the things I talk about is, is the thought circular or is it linear? You know, are you, with kids, I describe it like the one loop roller coaster at the fair. Is this scary thought that's often an intrusive thought? Is it circling over and over in your mind or is it leading you to action in a linear standpoint? And, and so, I mean, I think in that situation, you haven't heard from your child yet. For some reason, your GPS isn't working that you have them on. Check it once, text them, give them 10 minutes and just see, because more likely than not, they got caught in traffic or they're an adolescent and their brain is not fully developed and they forgot to text you back. So give them a minute, send a text, then give them another few minutes. And then, you know, maybe with that one, there is, you'll be in 30 minutes

earlier if you don't send me a text back next time. Yeah. You know, or something like that. But yes, I think when we just are hounding them, we're either going to reinforce the anxiety or we're going to annoy them so much of the time. Yeah. So your practice specialize in kids, but it's almost like, do you feel like the root of a lot of it is the parents? So does it, do you, do you feel it right? Or what do you think of that? So does it, do you, do you feel it right? Or what do you think of that? Sometimes. I mean, I definitely feel like, I mean, from a statistical standpoint, if you as a parent have anxiety, your kids are seven times more likely to have it.

But I have never met an anxious child who didn't have at least one anxious parent. I was speaking at an event this past weekend and this sweet mom came up to me and said, I don't know that I need your book because my son is anxious, but I'm not anxious at all. And she was literally shaking when she was talking to me and thought, oh, honey, I don't know how to say that to you, but please get the book, you know. But I do think often there is at least, or 99% of the time, there's at least one anxious parent. Now I've been doing this work long enough to say I have seen amazing parents who are doing, you know, so many things right. We're not going to do everything perfectly in any realm of this world, this fallen world.

But parents who are working so hard and getting so much right, and they still have kids that are really struggling. And so I don't ever want it to feel like it's algebraic in terms of there's always a formula because sometimes there's just not. And you have some kind of family history that you didn't even know about because it's five generations before and it's all of a sudden cropped up. And again, I mean, I think we can't take out COVID. We can't take out technology and social media from the conversation. We can't take out, I mean, just the pressure. There has never been as much pressure of perfectionism

as I'm seeing among kids today. I mean, there are so many factors that are different from when we were growing up, but I do want parents to be aware of looking at if there could be a little bit of where they are in the mix. Yeah. And you talk about how anxiety, I don't know if you say most of the time or always,

stems from some sort of traumatic experience. Like what's the trauma part? Often. Yes, often it can stem from some kind of traumatic experience. Yeah. There's a whole chapter where I talk about all the different factors that contribute to it. And certainly, but you know, it's interesting, even in light of the Covenant shooting, at Daystar, we have seen a lot of the kids. We were seeing a lot of them before it ever happened, just because we have a long relationship with the school. But we offered free counseling for as long as kids would need it from Covenant. And so we have a lot of those kids. And the ones who are struggling the most were anxious already. And so, you know, here's this trauma that just

kind of compounded what they were experiencing. Now, that's not to say that most of the kids were anxious and struggling right after it happened, of course, if not all of them who were old enough really to be aware of the repercussions. But I think the after effects have lingered more for the kids that were already struggling. So are you seeing that, do we just have more trauma nowadays than like in our, like in, you know, when I was a teenager or our parents were? Because it feels like we talk so much more about trauma. And I mean, I guess we're, do we label trauma a bit more than how maybe it was labeled before? So like, for example, like, so I was born and raised in France. I was a missionary kid, moved to America when I was 12. And I was thinking

about this last night when I was reading the book. I was like, I've never like thought of it as it was a traumatic experience coming home because we had to be, we moved home like within three weeks, like the mission board told us we need to do a long story, but we had to move home. They came to our church and said, all right, pack your bags, go home. And so I was French. I was born and raised in France, maybe came home to America a couple of times. France was my country. And so just all of a sudden within three weeks, I'm in America trying to go to American schools and it was really hard. And I was really like, you know, crying. The kids were so mean. I didn't know the language. Like I knew the language, but didn't know, like just, it was seventh grade too. So I didn't know so many things. And,

and like, sometimes I'm like, yeah, like, but I'm like, would that be labeled as trauma, traumatic experience? You know, like, whereas maybe like then I was like, I mean, I didn't get counseling. I didn't, I didn't, I mean, sure it affects you. So I guess what do you have to say about that? Like, do we label trauma a lot more now, or is there really a lot more trauma, like a lot more shootings, a lot more pandemics than back, you know, 30 years from now? I love that question. And I'm so sorry you went through that. I can't even imagine what that was like as a seventh grader.

And I would say that was a traumatic experience, certainly. And to your question, I think it's kind of both things. I mean, it seems like the use of the word trauma has increased significantly in the last two to three years. And even before that, I would have said, I feel like we're living in a culture of diagnoses that, you know, kids today don't anymore say, I feel stressed. They say, I have anxiety. They don't say, I was sad. They say I'm depressed. You know, they use this big language. And I think we're a part of that. We are often pathologizing ordinary emotions, which I don't think is helpful. And so I talk with parents a lot about how can we just use normal? I was sad. I felt stressed. Well, that hurt my feelings, you know, just getting back because then what's happening is kids don't feel like their emotions are validated unless we use this big language. Oh, wow. Interesting. Which, yes, is concerning to me. And so

I feel like trauma falls, the word trauma falls into that vein. I mean, there are people who espouse to the idea of big T trauma and little t trauma, which I feel like is a little bit more helpful. But I think in some ways, I don't think we're, I mean, I think there's both. I think in some ways we're addressing issues better than we've ever addressed them. And we are supporting kids, we're supporting adults in ways that we haven't with this significant trauma or even little T trauma that's gone on. I mean, I think that is a beautiful response to it. And I think we have it when there is significant trauma or even little t trauma that's gone on. I mean, I think that is a beautiful response to it. And I think we have gotten away from, I have a co-worker whose son was on the way to ask a girl to a dance and he said, mom, I think I'm having a panic attack. I think I'm having a panic attack. And his mom said, you're nervous. Of course, you're going to ask a girl to a dance. It's going to be hard to breathe when you get nervous.

Not a panic attack. You know, and I think when we use this language, sometimes we are almost lessening. You know, I think about that verse, John 16, 33, about in this world, you're going to have trouble, but take heart, I've overcome the world. I mean, we're in trouble. And so I feel like we almost can make it harder sometimes to work through it when we think this is trauma, this is trauma, this is trauma without we're going to hit hard places and we can work through it. But I think it can be both. I think it can be that was

a really traumatic experience. And man, I developed a lot of resilience because I learned the skills to work through it. But I think we don't want to overblow the usage of the word where somebody feels defined by that. And that's my really bottom line with these big words we're going to is that kids and adults start to define themselves by those words. Yeah, it's true because I can think of multiple situations in my mind where parents have been like, you know, their child went to the dentist and got scared from the shot and use it as it was so traumatic for them. And then therefore now. And it's like, I mean, so that's how I just wonder is like, man, but you made it clear.

Like we're using bigger words than what it is. Like it was scary and it was very unsettling and it hurt. And, but it was like trauma and that for now forever affects your life. Right. Yeah. I had a girl, I was meeting with a group of high school girls and one girl, I was wondering if they would go for this. I said, how do you feel like people are defining themselves at your age now? And this girl last year who was a senior

in high school said, I think people are defining themselves by diagnosis. And she said, and the scary things are first, I mean, I can't even believe an 18 year old would say this, would have the awareness to say this, but she said, first, I think it makes us skew towards the negative. It makes us think more about the negative in our lives. And second, then for the people who are genuinely going through these things, we're taking away the power of the words. Isn't that amazing? At 18, that you would know that? I know, but it certainly feels true. This episode is sponsored by The Pour Over Podcast. Oh, my word. I love The Pour Over Podcast. It is a trustworthy news resource guiding people toward eternal hope. It's not Republican. It's not

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might vote differently than you. Instead, check out and subscribe to the Pour Over podcast in your favorite podcast app. So then why do you think if we're, you said, we're doing a better job than we've ever done before at counseling and working through, then why is it increasing? Why are we then seeing so much more? Maybe partly because of that. I was thinking about somebody the other day that I was working with, and I thought, I think sometimes we confuse feeling our feelings with doing our work. And I think a lot of counseling today stops at feeling our feelings. Like the mom who was

following her daughter around our office, she was helping her feel her feelings. But feeling your feelings doesn't create resilience. It doesn't create independence. It doesn't create the ability to work through things. And so it's both. And our feelings don't always tell us the truth. Often our feelings, especially anxiety, I think distorts things. And so I feel like we just, the pendulum has swung a little bit to there's the stigma attached to counseling to we want counseling just to understand ourselves

and not learn how to work through every book I have a breakdown or the last few about anxiety into understanding help and hope, because I think we want to move from understanding to a place of practical help. And then obviously hope is what transforms us and changes us. And so I think that's part of the problem is that we've stopped in this understanding place and we need to equip tools. We need to be equipped ourselves with how to work through things. Like people aren't like thinking the next step, like, well, I don't want to be in this state. So therefore I'm going to change, try to work at so that I'm not, but just say like, yes, I'm just depressed. I'm, you know, and rather than, I don't want to be depressed anymore.

So what do I need to do to get out of this? There you go. I had a client one time who said to me, I don't want to grow. I just want to be understood. And I thought, oops, I'm the wrong counselor for you. Yeah. Because I want to help you grow. I don't want you to be stuck.

And that's where we can get so stuck. Do you get pushback on just like the more we talk about our feelings, the more it's creating more feelings? Like what's your thoughts on that? Because I, you know, I feel like especially in the Western world. Right. We yeah, there's there's this comedian that talks about how like in the way we like send our families to therapy, whereas in other countries they're just like smack them and just move on. families to therapy, whereas in other countries, they're just like, smack them and just move on. Like you're, you're good, you know? Um, and, um, but like, is, is start is create, is it creating more by like sitting our kids down or even ourselves, like just really thinking through all the, or, or do you feel like it's just, it's bottled down for, you know, shoved down for, um, you know, maybe our parents for, you know, maybe our parents

or, you know, it just, I don't know. I just would love to hear what your thoughts are on that. That does it create more if we're seeing an increase and we're doing such a good job at like, well, what was your high and low today? You know, is it like making them think about their low or, or do you feel like it was already there? It just feels good to get it out. Or do you feel like it was already there? It just feels good to get it out. Well, I feel like everything you're asking, I have two answers because I think it's both because I do think, I mean, one of the things I've noticed about anxiety over the last few years is every kid that I've ever met, and I think probably every parent that I've ever

met who's anxious, they're really bright. They're really conscientious. They're trying so hard. And they're often the kids who they'll go to parent-teacher conferences, their parents will, and the teacher will say, I wish every child in my class was like your child. And really, that child is anxious. And they're trying so hard to get it right that those kids often aren't talking about being really disappointed, having their feelings hurt, certainly aren't talking about anger.

And so they're stuffing a lot of it. And I think anxiety becomes kind of a secondary emotion because they're not letting themselves feel these other things. And in fact, I can track with kids often when they're most anxious, there's usually been something else going on in their world that they're struggling with. And I think the same is true for parents. I think when parents are most anxious, caught in those looping thoughts, usually they're sad about something else in their lives or there's something else going on that you're maybe not in touch with as much. And so I think in that sense, I do think talking about our feelings helps offset not only depression,

anxiety, getting to a place of suicidal thoughts. I mean, some of the bigger feelings I think can come when we're stuffing the smaller ones, but also the need to go to destructive choices to numb the feelings. So on that side, I think talking about feelings is really important. But I also think there are kids that I will say, mom and dad, I think they need to take a break from counseling for a little bit because they are defining themselves by these emotions and they're stuck and not wanting to grow. And so I think it's that sense of, I mean, even as a parent around the dinner table saying, you know, I felt really sad today. And so I called a friend and talked through it with them. Or I felt really anxious when I had to give a presentation at work today. And so I did my

square breathing and I reminded myself that I could do this. Then I did it and it was fine. Where they're hearing us talk about the emotions, but also they're hearing us talk about the action we take to work through that emotion. And that does, I mean, that's, I feel like that doesn't come natural, right? I mean, people aren't thinking about that. You're just sticking with, that's how I felt. Wow. That's really, that's really helpful. So to show our kids that that emotion is good, but this is how we conquer it. This is how we overcome it. Wow. That's so good. Tell us about, I'm looking up the word, okay, right there, confirmation bias. I was really interested. I thought that was really interesting. I really liked that section. Oh, yes. It always is convicting to read or

talk about that because I sure am guilty of this, but it's basically the idea that we find what we're looking for. And so, you know, one of my negative thought spirals I can get into is that I can start to think I'm trying harder than everyone else. I'm working harder than everyone else at whatever it is I'm working at. And when I start to think that way, that is all I end up seeing. Or kids who will say, you know, no one comes and asks me questions. I think often then they only see the ones who aren't asking them questions. And so that's part of the importance of learning to flip our thoughts, which is really a cognitive behavioral therapy strategy, which we use for anxiety to a more positive thought. And it takes 15 seconds for a positive thought to imprint on

our brains, which is interesting because we need to be thinking those positive thoughts because I'm not ever going to, if I'm looking towards I'm the one working the hardest, I'm not going to find the person who defies that theory. I'm going to have to get myself out of the thought. And so do you find that that is the same with parents? Like if you find like the kids that are thinking in that way, then usually the parent is like instilled from parents or not shut down. You know, like I'm thinking of the kid that like that, like nobody talked to me today. How the parent responds to that is either going to instill that, oh, wow, that's so sad. Nobody talked to you.

instill that, oh, wow, that's so sad. Nobody talked to you rather than like, well, you know, even bringing another side, did you talk to anybody or did, um, did the teacher, you know, say anything positive to you or, you know, like, so trying to look for something. So it's by not doing as a parent, not doing that is just like instilling in the child, like, yeah, that is you, you didn't get talked to today. Right. I mean, it's probably not the truth of the full day. There was nothing. It's like, let's, you know, what was it? And that's where I think it's so important to be aware that anxiety distorts because you're exactly right. I've had the same conversation with 20 parents over the years who call me and say, you know, their child will be in group counseling and they'll say they

don't have any friends. No one talks to them. And I will watch the exact opposite happen. But that child is in this distorted thinking of no one's talking to me. And they go home and tell the parent and the parent just automatically believes them rather than investigating for more information or helping them move toward, like you said, who did you talk to and move toward action of I'm going to do something about that. What? Okay. So a couple of things.

Why are we seeing it more in women? And then why are men the ones that are getting more help? Well, that is certainly true among kids. I don't know that it's true as much among adults. Other than I would say for a lot of moms, I think it's easy to prioritize your kids getting help before yourself because there's a limited amount of time and resources. But I think among kids, anxiety often shows up as anger in boys particularly. And I think girls, it often shows up as a perfectionist try hard. Maybe they're angry at home, but often only angry at home. They're not

getting angry with their friends or their teachers. And so because the boys are so explosive, the parents think something's really wrong. And with the girl, they think, well, she's delightful everywhere else but home. So it must be something we're doing or we need to give her better consequences rather than this is her safe place. So it's emerging. So I think that's probably a big part of it. And are you seeing that it's growing? Like it's one in every three right now? Yes. Kids? Okay. Yes. I don't know if it's more than one in three currently. I haven't, I mean, that's the latest statistic I've read. That feels about true for what I see in my office, but it might be more. But I think definitely if your oldest child is a girl or really your oldest is a boy,

either way, I think most often the oldest is going to deal with it to some degree. Really? Okay. Tell us more. Well, I love birth order statistics. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

You know, I mentioned my nephews earlier and with my four-year-old nephew, I mean, I think about how much we were so excited for him to learn to walk and learn to talk. And there was that sense of we were always trying to hold him up and get him to walk. I mean, you know, all the things that you're doing that you're so excited about, you're not putting pressure on them. You're not saying you have to walk or you're in trouble if you don't. But the degree of emphasis on them doing

what we want them to, or what's the next thing they're supposed to be learning, I think just puts the oldest child in the spotlight in a way that we're never gonna change that. I mean, first time parents are going to just, that's just life. But then I look at my second nephew and he walked three months later because no one cared. You know, we were just enjoying him and playing with him and laughing with him. And so, I mean, I think that's just one factor, but I was fascinated by the

degree that that felt true, that it's not that anyone's doing anything wrong. It's just a natural extension of it's your first child and you're excited about everything. And so everything has this emphasis that I think internally can sometimes feel like my parents are so much more responsive to me when I'm doing these things they want me to do. So I better keep going. I better keep it up.

What would be a better way of doing? I mean, because, yeah, because it's like I get that. But then it's like, but yeah, every mile marker, every little thing is, you know, but then that doesn't still. Yeah, I get so excited when you do all these things. And in this world now, I'm even checking off on the app when you do them. You know, I mean, it's just everything's moves that way. And so I don't know. I mean, I don't know if we just try to, from the earliest stages, have in our heads that we're going to also say, and it's okay if you don't. Or, you know,

one of the things, so I have this, there's this guy that does what I do for boys at Daystar, and we speak together and write together a lot. And one of the things, anytime we speak to parents, we talk about is practice makes progress. And so I don't know if it's just shifting our mindset a little bit towards practice makes progress. And we learn through failure and really a growth mindset as much as we came from the earliest stage, if that can really help to shift that for them, that would be my hope. And do you feel like the oldest child always has, even like then the younger siblings, looking at them and looking for answers, looking to do it as good as them and everything. And so there's just so much pressure for that oldest child.

Yes. That is sure a part of it too. And then so then why are the men or boys getting more help? Because I think they're more explosive. It comes out as anger often. So it's like, okay, you need counseling because you are just like flying off the handle. Acting out all over the place. Yes, yeah.

And I think with girls, we tend to think they're being manipulative or they're being demanding more than something's wrong. And with boys, they're so explosive that or they're being demanding more than something's wrong. And with boys, they're so explosive that I think we think there's something wrong. So then do we do we then chalk it up with girls to just say, oh, my gosh, they're just teenagers. They're the middle school, you know, age where it's like and just think that it's maybe more of an annoying personality where what you're saying is like, no, it's still, it's like it's anxiety that they have with it, the reason why. And so we're kind of not really taking action on it because we just think it's more just a stage of life.

Yes, I definitely think that's part of it. And I think, and I would want any mom listening to hear me say this with a lot of grace, but I do think moms are harder on girls just by nature, especially the oldest or the one who's most like them. And so I think with that one, especially there's a little bit more of you've got to get it together and stop acting this way. Then could there be more to the story? We'll talk more about that. I have three girls. Yes.

And I'm like thinking, I'm like, man, okay, why, like in which ways are we harder on our girls? Is it that we want, like we've seen all of our mistakes. We know how we, that we want so badly for them to succeed and to be the best. And so therefore we're not okay with, or not okay, but we just don't want that to see them mess up or fail. Is that, would that be the root of it? Yes. I mean, I think it's partly, I think it's the things that you didn't like about yourself or the things that you saw that you struggled with, you want to push her maybe harder without intending to. That happens. But I also think, I think just as females, we're just a lot harder on ourselves. And I think the way we talk to ourselves will inevitably spill over into the lives of the kids we love. And so I think that's part of it too. All right. I'm going to have to think about that.

I think that's part of it too. All right. I'm going to have to think about that. I know. I'm sure I am. But that's good. What about, okay, social phobia? So much, right? I mean, I feel like so many kids and even adults, I mean, I'm finding it is just like, oh, I don't think I can go to that. That's, you know, that gathering or that I just have too much anxiety, the thought of that. And so what is that coming? I feel like it's, you know, yeah, why? Why is there so much in kids and I'm finding it, seeing it in just adults that and calling it social phobia, not just like, oh, it's kind of an uncomfortable setting for me. I don't really know who to talk to when I get there. It's more, oh, no, I could never go do that. Yeah. We're using those big words again. We circle right back around to using the big words. I really, my experience is it has almost everything to do with

the pandemic. And I think for kids, I think they got really out of practice of having to deal with uncomfortable situations, having to deal with awkward, uncomfortable people. I think they even socially, we have a book called Are My Kids On Track where we talk about the four emotional, four social, and four spiritual milestones that kids need to reach. And I think a lot of kids miss some important milestones socially during that time. And I would say, I wonder if it's kind of both things. It's not only do I feel awkward and not know how to work through the awkwardness and have the conversations, but I don't want to have to do things that make me feel awkward anymore. I don't want to have to do things that I felt like entitlement was pretty significant

among kids coming out of the pandemic. And I think they're still dealing with a little bit of that. And, and so I wonder if, if we have some of both too, that we got out of practice talking to kids that weren't in our bubble and we got to not have to do a lot of things we didn't want to do. And so now maybe it's a little bit of a. Oh, so so you're saying like because we always had the excuse of like not feeling safe. Like, you know, like if even if there was an option for something, it's like, oh, no, no, no, we wouldn't like I don't. And so it became an excuse of maybe something you don't really want to do. And maybe it's a little uncomfortable to now. Now it's produced where like that the thought of, is like, it's a phobia now, whereas it was just

like, you just didn't want to. And yes, I think that can definitely be a part of it. Do you feel like it's going to take a long cycle, but it's just going to like, what's, what's the cycle going to be? I know it's hard. I think it's just going to take more time. I mean, I think it's going to take more time of making ourself do hard things, getting out there and practicing, putting ourselves in situations that grow us and stretch us for be okay, which there are a lot. That's the beautiful thing about the world of awareness and counseling that we're in. There are a lot of tools that we have that our parents and grandparents didn't have, but we need to put ourselves in the places where we're using them. The amygdala, which is the fight or flight part of our brain, one of the things that was interesting that I learned in my research for this book is we can create new pathways. We can actually grow our amygdala and

grow the pathways in it, but the amygdala only grows by experience. And so the only way we do that is actually putting ourselves in situations that trigger the fight or flight part of our brain and then working through it. If we never put ourselves in this situation, it's never going to create a new neural pathway. Oh, that's so interesting. That is really fascinating. So we, I mean, and again, it's going back to that. Don't stop with your feelings. You got to like, okay, now what am I going to do?

And so if you have a child or if yourself is, you know, just has lots of anxiety in social settings, I mean, you have to work, like you're never going to stop having that until you are actually putting yourself in those situations and really working through that. So hard, I'm sure you see this, but parents just want to protect, right? So we're just like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, don't go then. It feels like good parenting. Yeah. Like if you, if don't go, if that's too much for you, don't go. No. It's like we mean well, right? We mean well. We are like wanting to do what's best for them. The best of intentions in the world. Yeah. So what are, we have, you know,

five more minutes or so. What are, how would you sum up for us? Because we are talking about the worry-free parent. How, What are some of the key things that you can give to all us parents out here that is to help us just begin to stop worrying, which we're seeing just through this conversation, how much it trickles down into our kids. So ultimately, we want to be healthy. We want to be, you know, so, I mean, I just always think like just the generational patterns that we're just setting, right?, so, I mean, I, I just always think like just the generational patterns that we're just setting. Right. And so ultimately we just have to be healthy people and as parents. And so that we're not just going from generation to generation with like a long line of lots of

stress and anxiety and depression. And, you know, so what, what are some things that you can kind of sum up for us? I know everyone needs to read the book, but if they are just listening to this podcast, what kind of key nuggets can you give us? Okay, I'll give you three practical things because what happens often, I mean, what happens every time we're starting to get anxious is the amygdala, which we were just talking about, which is a part of the back of our brain

is what gets tripped up. It's what gets triggered. And the amygdala is the fight or flight part of our brain. And in those moments, the blood vessels in our brain constrict and it shifts the blood flow to the amygdala and away from the prefrontal cortex, which helps us think rationally and manage our emotions. And so when parents say to me, my child's like a crazy person when they get to this place, right? Because the rational part of their brain isn't even online and working. get to this place. Right. Because the rational part of their brain isn't even online and working. Neither is ours. And I really believe there's something in families that happens that's a little bit like if you ever lived in a dorm or a sorority house and one person started their period

and then all of a sudden everybody on your hall was starting their period. I think the amygdala operates the same way. One of us gets flipped and then all of a sudden everybody in the near vicinity gets flipped too. And so what I would say to families is I want every family to have a code word that when that word is said, that means we're going to pause. Watermelon, whatever it is, that means we're all going to pause and stop this conversation because when we're functioning out of our amygdala, we're not getting to a healthy, productive place. We're just not going to, we're not even capable of it. And so watermelon means I'm going to walk away from you. Even if it feels like we're in the middle of something, I'm going to walk away. I'm going to do some deep breathing. And there are a million ways we can do that. I talk about breath prayers in the book, another one that's called square breathing, whatever it looks like.

20 seconds of deep breathing begins the process of resetting the amygdala. So to go off on your own, 20 seconds of deep breathing, and then I want you to ask yourself two questions. Who do I want to be in this moment? And what do I want my kids to hear from me? Because I think that can enable us to reset and be more of the parents we're freed up to be when we're not living ruled by anxiety. More of who you want to be in the life of your kid. And so take that time and then come back and have the conversation. Whether it's 30 minutes later or whether it's three hours later, it's fine.

It's okay to come back to it. But we're not going to get to a productive place when we're operating out of our amygdala. So that would be my practical takeaway for today. That is awesome. Love that. Gosh, well, thank you so much. Where can people buy this book and where can they find more about you? Our website is RaisingBoysAndGirls.com and they can find the book wherever books are

sold. And I am on Instagram and I try to be as active as I can on Sissy Goff and David and I are raising boys and girls, just trying to help people as much as we can with the things that we're seeing in counseling. So both of those places you can find me too. That's awesome. Well, I've been so encouraged by just our talk and just seeing what you're doing. And I love, would love to see your practice at some point.

Cause I feel like when I read that in the book, I was like, I want to go. You're delightful to talk. Oh, well, thanks. I just feel like, um, what a beautiful gift for kids that you can create that setting because it made me instantly think of all this, you know, stark rooms that, you know, are just like awful to go into that's even for adults or, you know, for, it's just not a nice feel, but it's, but it's like you said, you create it like a home. And so it's just very safe feeling. And so love that, that good job on that. That's awesome. You're so kind. Well, thanks again. Have a wonderful day. And it was really nice talking with you.

Nice to talk to you too. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.