Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1120: Army Officer Turned Conscientious Objector: Spencer Goldstein

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

Spencer is the former director of development for the Center on Conscience & War. He has recently separated from the Army on reasons of conscience due to his Christian faith. He is a graduate from West Point, has his masters in biblical exposition, and is committed to peace, justice, and inclusion for the disability community. In this podcast conversation, Spencer talks about his journey into the Army and how he became convicted by his Christian faith about his military involvement, which eventually led to him becoming a CO (Conscientious Objector). We then talk more broadly about the Christian faith and militarism.  Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, the Exiles in Babylon conference is happening again, April 18th through the 20th in 2024 in Boise, Idaho. We're talking about deconstruction of the gospel, women, power, and abuse in the church, LGBTQ inclusion in the church, and three Christian views on politics and the gospel. We've got a loaded lineup of speakers, including Joshua Harris, Abigail Favali, Amin Hudson, Edna Wickham, Julie Slattery, Tiffany Bloom, Sandy Richter, Lori Krieg, Greg Coles, Art Perea, Brenna Blaine, Kat LaPriere, Chris Butler, Carol Swain, Brian Zahn, plus a live podcast with hip-hop all-star KB and Amin Hudson of the Southside Rabbi Podcast. Street hymns will be performing throughout the

conference. Worship by Evan Wickham and Tanika Wyatt, and also Max Licato is going to be there. All the information is at theologyintheraw.com. Again, if you want to attend live in person, I would register sooner than later. We're also going to live stream the conference, so that option is there as well. Again, Exiles in Babylon, 2024, April 18th through the 20th. Hey, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest is Spencer Goldstein, who used to work for the Center on Conscience and War. He has recently separated from the Army on reasons of conscience due to his Christian faith.

He's a graduate of West Point, has a master's in biblical exposition, and is committed to peace, justice, and inclusion for the disability community. And in this podcast episode, we basically just talk about what it was like being a Christian in the army, and then also realizing that his Christian faith was, in his experience, in his opinion, incompatible with continuing to serve in the Army. So he became a conscientious objector, a CO, and we talk about his journey and many other things related to that topic. So please welcome to the show, for the first time, the one and only Spencer Goldstein. Colt's team. Spencer, thanks so much for coming on Theology in Raw. Yeah, thanks Preston. It's great to be here. So, I mean, you have a pretty remarkable story and we're chatting offline. It

actually involves Theology in Raw a little bit, but yeah, I'm excited to hear how it fits into your story, but why don't you just start with, uh, maybe what made you want to join the military? Why don't we start, start there and then, uh, I'll just have you take us on your journey. That sounds great. Um, yeah. So, uh, theology and raw was the first place I went to that I was told to go to for resources on conscientious objection, nonviolence and everything like that. So this is definitely full circle for me. But yeah, so it started, I went to West Point, which is an undergraduate institution. So I was a soccer player growing up and wanted to play in college. And they were one of the schools that was recruiting me. And so I always say it wasn't like a,

like an honorable, uh, service minded thing. It was like, Oh, I can play soccer there. And, uh,

they pay you to go there. So it's like free school. I can get paid to go there to really good school. Um, that sounds amazing. Let's do it. Uh, so that was kind of the,

the original plan. And real quick, West Point, I always think of that as like the military school. Is it more than that? Yeah. So it's like the Army Military Academy. It's the United States Military Academy is what it goes by. So that's why people kind of get that. But it's just like the Air Force Academy for the Air Force, Naval Academy for the Navy. It's just like the Air Force Academy for the Air Force, Naval Academy for the Navy. It was just their first. 1802, it's been there for a long time. So it's kind of the original.

Okay. So you went there to play soccer and then ended up joining the military. Yeah. So when you go there, you go to school for four years. And then when you graduate, you're commissioned as an officer. And your contract is for five years that you have to do after. That's kind of how you pay back the school and everything so i go play soccer there uh pretty quickly i'm just like not like an army guy just from the start um it just really wasn't like i didn't enjoy the army

training or you go through like an initial basic training type thing. And it just like, wasn't the best time for me, but I stuck it out because I wanted to play soccer. And that's actually where I started following Jesus was about my sophomore year. I had an amazing boxing partner who kind of ministered to me and helped me as I was going through some really hard times and started just following Jesus seriously. And once I did that, I was like, I want nothing to do with soccer. I just want all my time to be dedicated to this Jesus guy.

And so I quit the team and just focused on following Jesus. And that's when I started taking the army stuff a lot more seriously. So there's a lot of trainings and a lot more things that you can do, especially when you're not part of the soccer team. So that's where I really see my relationship with Jesus starting, but also my military experience starting. The next two years, you know, hand in hand, studying to be a good officer, studying to be a Christian. I was really involved in young life there. You know, the whole community there, everybody's Army.

So our church, everybody was Army. Everybody teaching me about Christianity is Army guy. So we never really talked about nonviolence or militarism or anything like that. And then in 2018, graduated and commissioned as a military police officer. And my first duty station was in Georgia. So, shipped out to Georgia. And actually started liking the Army stuff. Really enjoyed, you know, leading people.

army stuff uh really enjoyed you know leading people um that's all really being an officer is is leading teams and and organizing teams serving people a lot of that language is used really enjoyed it that's when i was i was married in 2019 um to rachel we were living in georgia just kind of doing the army thing. And then in 2020, we had my daughter, which is where kind of everything shifted for us. So she was born with Down syndrome, which was a complete surprise for us. So we had no idea. And so up until then, it was just kind of, you know, in the army, being a Christian is really tied to leadership. And to be the best Christians, to be the best leader is to get the best run time and, you know, put your hands up and say, glory to God that I can run the fastest and lead the best and be ranked number one. the fastest and lead the best and and be ranked number one um obviously it's not in such direct language but that's that's a lot of the essence of of following jesus is is the success aspect

and so uh i really bought into that and i really uh just believe like okay if i'm gonna follow jesus seriously i just need to be the best at everything. And again, it's not like direct language like that, but that's kind of the idea that it has. And so when my daughter was born, again, she was born with Down syndrome, I had some initial feelings of like, okay, I've been a good Christian. I'm doing the right things.

And I get the kid with the disability which I know is not now I just think that's the most ridiculous statement but that was that was an original feeling and then I started to you know be introduced more to the disability community of you know what about the kids who can't walk or can't talk or don't have those typical functioning skills? Are they still loved? Are they still good Christians? And those were some serious questions that I had. And then just to feel the love for your own daughter, that may be a little bit different.

I just love her so much. And I know God loves her so much and treasures her so much. So I must be kind of off on something. And that's when things really started to shift for me. Shift for you in terms of how you viewed the military? Or when did that start to, when did you start to kind of process your Christian faith with your military service? Yeah, that's a good question. I'd say that's when things shifted for me just in my process of thought. So I was in seminary at the time, taking some classes.

So, you know, going through the hermeneutics and all these, all these types of things and all, all these classes I'm going to, I'm going to, to try to learn how to be the most effective Christian is kind of how I approach those classes. But now I'm approaching these differently. I'm approaching these of, how can I be more introspective in my relationship with God? How can I take a different perspective?

Which really cemented the fact. So then when my daughter was born, she had a lot of medical complexities and things like that. So we moved to Colorado, which is actually our home state, where the hospitals are just a lot better and more conducive for some of the things she was doing at the time. So we moved back here. And I was stationed at Fort Carson. So I'm new to the unit. The one thing about being a Christian in the Army is you just always want people to know you're a Christian in the Army. That's like the number one goal is just that they know that you're a Christian.

And one of my first weeks there, we had a shooting exercise. I'm a military police officer. So we're doing like a clearing a building exercise where you're shooting targets. These targets are real people's faces on pictures. And it's a competition style. We go through the day and actually win this competition. And I leave, and things are said to say, hey, Spencer's a Christian, but he'll also shoot you in the face. And that hung in my head, man. Wow. He's a Christian, but he'll shoot you in the face. And that hung in my head, man. Wow, he's a Christian, but he'll shoot you in the face.

And it just felt and sat really wrong with me. And I had a friend at the time who talked to me about nonviolence. And I was so against it. I was like, no, we're the good guys. We got to go get the bad guys and protect ourselves. And she's like, well, I think you can think differently about this. Like, is this the way Jesus would respond? And so when that felt wrong, I went to her and she started to tell me, you know, well, Jesus's call is to love people nonviolently to the point of his own death, maybe ours, which is very different than protecting this idea that we have to the death of others, to the point of death of others.

And she pointed me to your podcast and some of your resources. And so now that I was able to see things, I think differently. And, you know, from the perspective of some things that my daughter taught me and the disability community taught me, I went out to prove that you can be a Christian and kill people and that's OK. At the point of being in the military. And it was just impossible. I couldn't.

I was at that point where I was like, I don't I can't do this. If I was to continue on, I'd be going against what I believe God has for me. So what am I going to do? Am I going to make the stand and take the CEO route, the conscientious objection route, or am I just, or am I not? And that was a big step of faith for me there. What's it like? Yeah. So how do you do the CEO route?

Do you like schedule an appointment, talk to your higher ups and say here's my new viewpoint i can no longer serve in the army or that that that sounds pretty frightening is that was that where how does it go about and how is it received from the army when you say you're a ceo yeah so there's a process of uh you have to fill out a packet that has a bunch of essay questions kind of getting at uh when you join you're saying i'm okay doing this obviously so being a content subjector is something has changed so you have to be able to communicate what changed why did it change and is this a true feeling um or is it just kind of you wanting to get out and so that's kind of the main process and it is a long process uh

very long process so i started working on the packet uh i let my chain of command know these were my intentions um in my i want to stay at the start my process was so much easier than most soldiers uh far easier i had a great. I have leaders that listened to me. Um, yeah, I had some pushback and things like that. Um, but I think being an officer and it is different than, I can't imagine being private or a specialist, a low ranking soldier who comes out with these, uh, with this ideology and taking a stand, you just get eaten alive. Um, So you were treated with respect though. I mean, for the most part, for the most part. Yeah. And I do, my leaders were, were amazing and, uh,

and believed me and wanted the best for me. And, and obviously did not agree with me by any means, but, um, so, Hey, if this is what you believe in we'll we'll you know support you and and that's a great thing about the army that i think they do very well sometimes is is support when when the army's rights when the leaders are doing what they're supposed to be doing they're supposed to support their soldiers and i had leaders who did that, which was really nice. But that is the anomaly. Okay. What are some – well, going back to that statement, you know, Spencer's a Christian, but he'll shoot you in the face.

That almost assumes a kind of dichotomy, right? Or there's almost an underlying assumption there that, like, yeah, Christians should normally not shoot people in the face. But Spencer will, and he's kind of unique, you know, he's cool or whatever. So, I mean, when you say I'm a conscientious objector because of my Christian faith. Why is it so hard to say? It's a hard thing to do.

I'll just say CO, CO. My mouth just doesn't do that. Yeah, it's hard. Like, is there, when you say, well, because of my Christian faith, is there kind of like, oh, okay, it sounds like you're being consistent with your religious commitment. I can almost see where people could respect that. Is that how you, what you received? That you're actually living out your faith more consistently and they can kind of recognize

that if that's true for you. And then I'm curious for the majority of people who don't have a really good experience. Yeah. Um, funny enough, when I was applying for West Point, I could speak the Christian language and I think I used that in order to help my packet and admissions process and things. Yeah. I'm a Christian, you know, um, I could, I could speak that stuff. And so, um, one of the admissions counselors said, Heyian you know uh i could i could speak that stuff and so um one of the admissions counselors said hey you know you're getting into the army and you've talked about your faith is that okay with you so i think that's what you're speaking to of of there is this tension um of this kind of feels wrong uh when you look at the life of Jesus, when you look at Christian history, when you look at these things, there is an automatic tension.

Now, I think I never experienced that, especially at West Point. And in my first few years as an officer, you know, they were hand in hand. So to be the best officer is to be a Christian. And so if we want better officers, we should probably make them Christians. To be the best Christian is to be the best army officer. So these were really tied together very closely. And I think it's almost overdone because we're overcoming the fact of kind of that inward feeling that we have that this feels wrong, if that makes sense. of kind of that inward feeling that we have that this feels wrong,

if that makes sense. Yeah. So, so being, so there was like several other Christians at West Point or other Christian officers, like you weren't like an anomaly being a Christian in the army like that. No, there's a ton.

There's a whole thing called officer Christian fellowship. It's in the, especially the community I was in. I mean, most of my friends are all still in the army and faithful christians um and and so there are a ton and and you know there's there's some that aren't and there's some that you know who are we to judge but um i think i think the army does a really good job of implementing faith in very subtle ways.

Before any event, we have a chaplain praise, which is kind of weird, right? It's a governmental organization, and we're praying before our dinners, and we're praying before our change of command ceremonies. These are weird things that are interwoven with the culture of the army. And so it's not a weird thing to talk about at all. Well, yeah. I mean, I was raised in a context where serving in the military was almost like an outworking of your faith. It would have been very odd for people not to be, whether you're in the military or being supportive of the military was kind of a Christian virtue was just assumed, you know, like it was, I remember even as old as when I

was in college, I remember hearing about a Christian professor at a secular city college who was also a pacifist. And I was like, that's, that's, that's a contradiction. Like to be a Christian is to kill the bad guys, you know, the fight against evil. Like that's why we're here, you know? So, um, and it took, I mean, it was a long process for me to kind of just re rethink these categories, you know? So is that, is that the kind, I mean, you experienced probably a lot of the same thing, like, like where Christianity and militarism and patriotism were all kind of blended together was that is that by far the kind of most popular view then yeah i think so and i think that's proven by when i do talk about being a pacifist when i do talk about being a ceo um

some of the first responses i get which i think are gonna show you know what the what the common culture is is like so you hate america you know and like so why don't you want to be a good citizen and and things like that and it just reveals how interwoven this idea of christianity is into americanism you know, Christian nationalism, all that type of stuff is so deep rooted that it's offensive for a Christian to be a conscientious objector. Which, you know, when we look at the life of Jesus, like, OK, I'm able to laugh at this now because I'm like, it's a very basic tenet, I believe, of following Jesus and of the life of Jesus in the early church. And so how would that be offensive to being a Christian? A lot of the questions are, and again, these are dynamic things. And I want to do a disclaimer, too, that I don't think if you're in the army and you support what you're doing, but you're also a Christian, you're disqualified as a Christian. That's not what I'm saying at all um these are is a dynamic discussion with with

different layers of things um but when i began to peel back those layers of uh do i really want to be out killing these people that i'm cold or bad uh i don't want to be i don't believe if they are my enemies then what am I supposed to do with them? I'm supposed to love them and I'm supposed to pray for them. And I'm supposed to, you know, give them my cloak and also my shirt, not just my shirt. You know, if, if they're my, if they're Christians, they're my brother and they're my sisters and I don't want to kill them. And so either way for me, I was very uncomfortable with, with taking that action. And, um, so disclaimer though, I don't think anybody,

if you are a Christian in the army, you're disqualified or anything like that. No, that's good. That's a good disclaimer. Yeah. Everybody's on their own journey. And honestly, I was going to ask you, yeah. Do you get a lot of pushback or from other Christians when you say you're a CEO because of your Christian faith? Is your story not very well received among other Christians? It's like the two extremes.

It's very well received and very supportive, especially with my close network of friends who I have relational capital with and things like that. And with some, they're uber offended. There's not really much in the middle so it's it's either yeah like fully supports you like that's not my thing man but like whatever i can kind of see it i've also gotten oh i don't really want to go there uh i don't really want to open that that can of worms because there's also a level of like this supports my family and uh which was hard for us as well me and my family as we're coming out and making this stand um and so that's a level two and on the other side is kind of that uber offensive uh you know what about everybody who died for you like you're here because people died for you in world war ii and you're just stomping

on their graves like how dare you right how dare you be given the opportunity to go to west point and then you do this like you're better than that um and so it is far better received than not which is great but when it is not well received, it's pretty extreme. Were you ever deployed overseas? No, luckily I was never deployed overseas. What was it like before you were a CEO? What was the environment like? Was it easy to be a Christian otherwise? Or was there, back, especially, were there other things in that environment that were really challenging to your faith? Super easy to be a Christian. One, I think the military has done a great job

of using words like service, honor, duty, integrity. These are like Christian values that are almost now being monopolized by the military. And so if you're in that system, you're following those duties. And so it's kind of what you were talking about. It's the best outwork or walk of your faith is to go serve because you're serving. That's what we're supposed to do as Christians. So go do in the military it's easy so very easy in that way there are a lot of christians open and it's not like a hostile environment for christians at all it's it's just focused on different things so by no means is it on violence or nationalism or things like that, idolatry of nation or anything like that.

It's focused on, hey, I have 30 soldiers under me, and I'm going to take really good care of them, which is true. And it is great things. You know, as an officer, you are directly in charge of kids, 18 to 20-year-olds. As a Christian, you want to take really good care of them. And as an officer, you have a lot of authority to do so. And so that's where a lot of the conversation is. But yeah, it's super easy.

And there's churches everywhere and there's chaplains and, you know, your borderline worships in the community, like the thank you for your service culture and things like that. And these are all things that you get flack for when you start speaking against. But I just don't think it's healthy for the development of a Christian. How do you respond to when people say, you know, how dare you trample on the graves of all these people who died for our freedom, who died so that you can even be a CEO, you know how dare you trample on the graves of all these people who died for our freedom who died so that you can even be a ceo you know yeah that's a that's a that's a common one and i think and most of my response is you know i'm grateful for what they have done so much so that i don't want anyone to do that again yeah and so and especially as a Christian, you know, I'm coming from a different perspective of, you know, for me,

it was, I have a dual citizenship, as you will. I can be a citizen of the kingdom of God, or I can be a citizen of the United States. And when you participate in being in the military, you're now an arm of force from that. So you're going directly against your citizenship of the kingdom. So you have to pick one. And that's really where I came down to. And so when people say that stuff to me, I try to respond like that,

in love and in patience. And most of the people can understand. I've done some work with the Center on Conscience and War, which is an amazing, amazing organization that supports CEOs everywhere. And this is a great example because they'll get flack for, you know, not supporting the troops and things like that. They support the troops probably more than, you know, the dude with the lift truck and the Trump flag on the back of it, you know, because they are fighting for the rights of these soldiers that have been won, you know, and protected through military service. And so that is one of those rights. And so sometimes it's as basic as, hey, this is a right that those people have fought for and died for, and I am using that right. And so I'm grateful that I can do that because in some places you can't. But I'm going to continue to fight to make sure that we can continue to do that and then that we can solve problems in different ways. Are most COs Christian?

Like, is it for religious reasons that they become a CO or not? I mean, I'm sure there's some that aren't, right? Yeah. I think a lot of it is, I'll put it in the spiritual category. I think a lot are Christians. I don't think you can talk about violence or killing without a spiritual aspect. And so most I talked to have been Christians, but there's some from all different religions, even humanists, you know, basically, I don't want to kill people because they're human and they have inherent value in that. Yeah, I wouldn't say most are Christiansians but most have a religious element for sure are there people that maybe and you you could speak into this more i mean i'm i'm going on just you know stuff i learned from the outside but like just do people see the internal the

inworkings of the the military industrial complex and know, our involvement with various coups and proxy wars. And, you know, I mean, you peek behind the curtain of what American imperialism has done around the globe. And you don't need to have a Christian faith to say, I don't know if I want to be part of this machine. There's a lot of propaganda that, you know, says we're the good guys. Everybody else is the bad guy if they oppose us. But there's, you know, no one likes to talk about the U.S. involvement in the near genocide of, you know, backing Saudi Arabia's genocide attempt on Yemen, you know, like no one wants to talk. No one wants to talk about the U.S. involvement in Ukraine and, you know, prior from, you know, what, back in 2014, our involvement in ukraine and you know prior from you know what back in 2014 our

involvement in the the coup you know out of western interest i mean there's so you peek behind the curtain and all the stuff in latin america that we've been involved i mean again you don't need to be a follower of jesus to say there there's there's stuff going on here that isn't talked about and i'm not on board with that, are there people that have that kind of experience or? Um, I'd say no, I would say mostly it's pretty, um, that's, what's hard about these conversations is that when you start to peek around the curtain and you start to see more, you get a little bit more uncomfortable with what you see. And so a lot of the conversation about, um, serving in the military or anything like that stops at that place of honor because it feels very uncomfortable culturally to

speak against the military being in the military because it is at such a high seat at the table. But once you do start, I mean, look at Guantanamo Bay, it's like in direct opposition of American legal standing and judicial process and everything. But we're like totally OK with it because we kind of stop at that level, which is super dangerous. all as in our job is to fight for those vulnerable vulnerable people no matter if they have committed crimes no matter if they uh are enemies they are inherent beings created in the image of our god and and it's our duty to care for them and to love them at the expense of ourselves you know um and we have to be okay with that. And unfortunately, I think an easier route, if this is too bold to say, is to, you know, go the military route. So we can lay down our lives for something. A lot of people say, you know, lay down your life for

your brother. I'm going to join the military very honorable yes at what you are saying is true and i love and appreciate your values and your willingness to go die for others because that's what all these people joining the military is but can we change this conversation to be dying for something else? And I think that is the hard piece because it is a dark curtain. It's a heavy curtain to draw back. And as you start to do that, and my family has felt this, as you start to heal back these layers, and again, the disability community really taught us a lot about that it's just dark and it's hard and you're fighting this uphill battle against the culture where all of a sudden you're the guy who's speaking against all the veterans and and

trampling on their graves and all these things and it's like no i'm fighting for the vulnerable people that are here now and that i believe we need to stand up for. And that's where we're going to risk our lives. That's where we're going to sacrifice for and do our best to do so. Does that make sense? Totally makes sense. And I appreciate the fact that you do point out all the virtues that come with military service. I mean, it can be at least very selfless.

It's, you know, honor, there's courage. I mean, there's so many virtues that... And this is where, to me, it's not even... In as much as I advocate for nonviolence and think the military industrial complex is problematic on so many levels, it's not so... My problem isn't so much with the individuals that are kind of caught up military industrial complex is problematic on so many, so many levels. It's not so much, my problem isn't so much with the individuals that are kind of caught up in the, the air of the culture and want to, out of noble desires, you know, fight against evil and stand for what's good and, and be selfless and sacrifice and all that, like all of that. I could, I can,

I can celebrate all those things. I just think that there's such deeper layers that are more, I guess, to use a term we often use today, you know, there's much more deeper systemic issues going on that I have a problem with. Primarily, I guess, would be the silence of the church or even not silence, but the vocalness of the big C church and even promoting, um, a Christian's, you know, duty in, in, in serving the military industrial complex, you know, um, and just, just not even raising the question, is this really an extension of, you know, uh, Jesus's ethic? Like, is, is this really what we should be doing as Christians? Like, but that, so that

falls more on the American church culture, the American church leaders that have kind of got wrapped up. To me, that's more where my, I don't want to say target of attack really, but if I was going to address kind of some root issues, it would be more that, that the church is just absorbing this patriotic narrative that Babylon has given to us without questioning that. Nobody in the first few centuries of the church would have, I don't know. If you take a first, second, or third century Christian and transport them into 21st century American Christianity, they would have just been like, what in the...

They would have a category for the merging of the Christian faith and the patriotism around, especially around, you know, militarism that exists in the church today. Yeah, I don't know why I'm going with that. Well, no, you're absolutely right. And I think that's what's so hard. And I was subject to that too, right? And so you're going through West Point and you're like, worship there, you know, like the best of the best, uh, way to go. I can't believe you decided to do this. It's amazing. Um, and we always joke that, uh, when you, when you graduate and you

commission, you actually get demoted because the highest ranked person in the army is a first class cadet which is a senior just because they're like they've been through west point and they have such high uh flower if you will that you get demoted when you get out and so it's kind of like this image you know you're watching have you seen the football games and and all these things that are like American centric things that hold, that seem to hold the fabric of the culture together. And they're taking these kids who, you know, want to serve, who want to help others, who want to defend the helpless, which are all amazing things. They're taking them and using them to further those goals. And that's what makes me most sad.

You know, the army has some awful people. Obviously, everyone has awful people. But some of the just like most amazing and brilliant thinkers and leaders, I see them as being distracted with this mission, where if they're focusing on homelessness, feeding people, energy, all these different things, we'd have a lot of problems solved just because these are dynamic, brilliant thinkers who could really change the world. But they're just stuck in this mission that is really just furthering the goals of the

institution of this country and not of any, uh, vulnerable people or people that actually need that. And I think that's the piece that hurts the most is at the expense of these people. And once you get into the system, it's like, it's hard to come out of, um, because you're getting the 10% off at Chili's or whatever, you know, uh, all the way from there to, you know, being honored at an NFL football game. Um, that's hard to break away from. Uh, and then when the church is quiet to that, um, yeah. Why would you, why would you change from that?

It's compelling. It's super compelling. I want that call. It's such a compelling narrative. I mean, golly, that's just a commercials that I grew up, you know, watching the commercials of serving the mill. And I was like, I would get chills. I want to do this, you know, like start doing pushups. I know. Gosh, you're so compelling. So yeah, I, I, um, it's the thing behind the machine, whatever that thing is, you know, is where I think the problem is. But yeah, I don't fault people

for buying into that narrative. Well, I mean, I do and I don't, right? I mean, I think we all have a responsibility to follow Jesus and read scripture and do what he says. So I don't, but yeah, but I mean, we all read the Bible through our kind of cultural and ecclesiological lens.

And when our ecclesiological lens has been so fogged up by, I think non-Christian themes, I'm mixing metaphors here. I was trying to fix that, but whatever. You get the point, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you think, I mean, again, you were part of the system. Like, Do you think, I mean, again, you were part of the system. Do you think the higher-ups in the military truly believe all the rhetoric? Or do you think they see that it's way more complex than us? We're the good guys and everybody else is the bad guys.

Do you think they see problems there or do you think they don't? I don't think they do. I think it's this system that maybe like when it started they understood the complexities but we are so deep into this now that it's just right the system is just rife with this and i think a good example is in the military we talk a lot about um you know abu grabe and all these different uh huge events in history where the u.s did some terrible terrible things uh and some were held responsibly loosely and we'll teach those and we'll celebrate those um and then when a lot of the atrocities from

russia and ukraine were coming out about what russian soldiers were doing um to ukrainians and to ukrainian soldiers you know i remember having a meeting with some of my leaders and and then being like this is just absurd and i'm like we literally just sat down yesterday and talked about how we did the same exact thing we're not better than the russians we're not better than any of these bad guys we paint and then it's oh no well we we we hold ourselves accountable and i think there is definitely a level of that but also it's just a complete disregard that we are good and they are bad And there's a complete disregard of our ability to have that and that we catch everything that we do wrongly. And it's and it's hubris and it's and it's egotistical. And I think it's dangerous because, you know, as a Christian, I think our first look needs to be like, I'm the messed up one.

What do I need to work on? You know, instead of looking at all these kids out there that are doing crazy things, it's okay. What, how am I failing? How am I sitting here? And we need to be doing that, but that's not what the military does. Everything we do is right. Which again, if you start to break down systems, how can that be if we have a president making those decisions? You know, maybe three presidents ago, they made that decision

and we're still doing these things just because we're stuck over there. How is that okay? Just on a point blank check. There's, I see very little critical thought into those things. And I think that's what's really dangerous. And so to be a Christian and to,

you know, as a being in the military, you have to follow those orders and you have to go do what they say pretty much blindly. And that is a dangerous call. When we serve a God who we claim to be sovereign and who we claim to be with us and to lead us and to guide us and the Holy Spirit that's with us. But we're going to disregard that just because of a blank statement, that order that we have to go kill these people, sometimes indiscriminately. That is, I don't see how I personally could not do that anymore. That's why I became CEO.

And I think that's where I struggle and try to talk with, especially Christians. You know, I'm not even trying to save the world or anything. I just want to reveal this Jesus that loves and that cares so much for us and for our enemies. You know, he doesn't just love us. I see pictures a lot in different chapels and things of Jesus sitting with soldiers, different chapels and things of of jesus sitting with soldiers except that the the posture isn't like he's among us and he's with us no matter what the posture is he's for us meaning he's against the others which i think is a very dangerous rhetoric to hold and to um and to have when you have the might of the united states military behind you, that is dangerous.

And that's where I see a lot of those problems. Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, in your training, is there, was there, you know, people, people, most people that are maybe more pro-military, pro-war, you know, if it's necessary, would say, you know, I'm for just war. You know, I wouldn't, you know, I'm for just war. I'm not just killing indiscriminately or doing Abu Ghraib stuff. I think most people would say, especially Christians, say, well, no, that part's wrong, but that doesn't mean the whole system is wrong. Is there a deep concern within your training to uphold the kind of principles of just war to, to make sure you're not, you know, killing civilians, you know, um, that you're, you know, using what

proportionate means, whatever that there's like seven criteria for just war, like, like just to stay ethical within warfare. Is that pounded into you or is it not so much? It definitely is. Uh, we have tons of classes um especially officers um you know that's kind of what we're charged with is that ethical moral decision making and so i do appreciate that but i think it falls short is name a just war uh name like it is just so impossible and so even though we're learning these things and we know them, when we're putting ourselves in these situations, we're creating impossible scenarios. And so there is proportionality, for example, you know, pretty much in essence, it's, you know, we got to do our best to not destroy cultural sites, not kill civilians and all these things. But there's always a but if the mission is necessary and you've done a proportionality assessment

and you've minimized casualties, that's just kind of what happens with war, which I agree with that. Like that's just what happens with war. And that's why I don't want to participate in it because there is no, even though we're learning these things, even though we focus on following laws and all these things, it's war and it's impossible to do that. How have you thought through, I'm curious, because I get this question a lot and I don't, I mean, I have an answer. Well, sort of, um, let me just raise a question, you know, like, okay.

It's one thing as a Christian to have this stance. It's one thing for the church to not participate, but a nation needs a military. It needs to defend itself. It needs to protect itself. If it's being invaded, like, um, are you saying that like all the nations should just like get rid of their military or that it's wrong for a nation to have a military it's wrong for a nation to defend itself through violence like how do you respond to have you thought through that first of all like just the difference between having a a christian ethic for the church but then also more of a political ethic for the nations um totally and

i think that's like a million dollar question right and whenever you talk about this stuff obviously like it's brought up um there's also a piece of this that's hard because it's like okay if and you get this a lot when you talk about gun violence in the united states and things like that well okay someone's attacking you what are you going to do you know someone's attacking your wife that's always the thing they go to uh which is weird someone's attacking your wife what are you gonna do you're just gonna let it happen um and in essence that's not what we're saying at all right um so with the nation thing i think the most important piece is to flat out say i don't think america is a god's nation and i don't think i think it's pretty clear in scripture that his nation is not like this ordered Babylon or anything like that. His nation is his people from whatever background,

from the ends of the earth. And so that is going to be like our number one nation. It's not these borders and these governments that we've created. So from the start to say that is okay, if it's a secular nation, I understand why you want to protect yourself, because you have interests that serve you. And what you've decided is important for your country. And so I totally understand why you want to have a military to defend yourself and all of those things and so in no way am i saying like there shouldn't be countries or there shouldn't be nations or presidents or whatever i understand why there is what i'm calling and what i want to follow is that first and foremost i'm going to be loyal to this to my citizenship of the kingdom of god and at the expense of, okay, I'm not going to like participate in this war, which is hard.

And I think one of the best or one of the hardest things to discuss is something like world war II with a Hitler, you know, and I'll fully admit that like, that is a hard discussion. And I like, I'm glad I have to make that decision because that is like hard, hard question. I mean, any pacifist who says that's an easy question is is probably just more into making a show of things. I agree. I agree. That's right. Yeah. And so there's like those layers that are really real.

We can participate, but we have to be very careful about our level of participation. It is, you know, the government can be a great place to provide services to, I work at the Dale House here, which we provide services for at-risk youth. And a lot of our funding comes from governmental programs. Amazing. Like that is how we are taking care of kids. I wish it could have come from you know church from a long time ago and we've continued that system but it's just not and so that's where we're going to go to get care for great and i'm okay with that to participate in the army to go kill people i'm not okay with and so this is the hard part about being a citizen of Babylon, of the United States, is what level of participation is going against who God created me to be, how we are supposed to interact with others.

And that is a hard thing. It's much easier to just kind of abide by the greater culture and to go with that. But that's the invitation that i think we have of you know you want to be a christian go come on man it's fun you know you really gotta decide some hard things uh and people aren't gonna like you and you're gonna be different that's the call instead of like uh you know you want to be a christian oh great come you know, you want to be a Christian. Oh, great. Come, you know, and glorify the United States. And I think that's the hard, hard distinction that we have. I don't know if that answers your question.

No, it does. And I, yeah, I'm just curious how you think through it. Cause I mean, I, you know, yeah, when I get that, I, I, my, my first response is, you know, I think the new, the new test, the ethics of the Bible really, but let's just say the, you know, I think the new test, the ethics of the Bible, really, but let's just say the New Testament ethics are designed for the people of God living globally among the nations. Like there is this intrinsic dichotomy between being the people of God globally. We are scattered among the nations. The nations are not the church. So there's this intrinsic difference between how the nations simply will live because they're the nations. They're Babylon. I mean, according to Revelation 13, they're literally empowered by

Satan. That's just what the text says. I sorry like it it well specifically it talks about i would be okay to be more specific the empires okay um i wouldn't i don't know if like revelation 13 has you know costa rica in mind but it certainly has the united states of america as an empire or empire like nation that i think there Well, I need to think through that a little more. I think there is, I think, I genuinely think, I'm not 100% sure, but a distinction in scripture, maybe not a harsh one, but some distinction between nations that act like empires, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Rome. And again, America would very much fit within that. I don't think every single nation on earth should be described as Babylon. That's why when I talk about this, I do

keep it America-centric. I mean, the other... We can even... I think Chinese Christians living in China have a similar tension on their hands. Christians living in Russia or even India is becoming very powerful, at least economically. Where am I going with that? Oh yeah. So, so I think the Christian ethic is, is not, it's not designed to tell Babylon as this non-Christian empire how to live. When it talks about Babylon, it's a, it basically says you're going to be judged by God, you know, like given all of these sins that are, that are, you know, wrapped up with misuse of wealth, uh, sexual immorality, idolatry, uh, hurting the poor, not caring for the poor, you know, all these things that again, are marks of the empire. And then the narrative of empire is God is going to judge the empire

and it calls believers to, in Revelation was 18, you know, come out of her. Like, don't get too wrapped up in this imperial system. You are part of the kingdom of God, not the kingdom of Babylon. And yes, we are to submit to the governing authorities and to seek the good of the city. And I think people take that to mean like, give your full allegiance to Babylon you're living in. I'm like, no, the best way we can seek the good of Babylon is to not be like Babylon, to live as a citizen of God's kingdom and to live out those virtues while in Babylon, not to bow the knee to Babylon. So yeah. Some people say, it sounds like a cop out, like, should America have a military? Should America defend itself? Should America, should these other nations, you know, do these things? I'm like, I don't, based on what authority, I don't think the Bible is, gives an ethic for how Babylon is to live. It just says Babylon's going to be judged and it gives an ethic for how the people have got her to live.

have got her to live. If you want me to put on my secular hat, then it's like, yeah, the bigger, the better. Don't care. Don't care about the poor. In fact, eugenics would be great. You know, just like, why don't you just kill people that are, you know, aren't good for society. And, you know, why would you ever care about other nations? Just, you know, all these, all these, you know, all these coups we've backed around the world, you know, where we've like, took out a democratically elected leader. Cause they weren't pro-a. We installed some puppet leader that was more pro-America. Yeah. Why not do that? You know, they're like, if you want to put on a secular hat and just think like a Babylonian, then sure. Anything goes, you know? Yeah. Hiroshima dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. It, you know, why not kill hundreds of thousands of civilians if it's going to end

the war and prevent Japan from invading America or whatever, you know? So I, I don't, I don't, I don't have a good secular political ethic because I don't have a found, I don't really have a foundation from which to build that. What do you think? I think I'm genuinely thinking out loud. I might be totally out to lunch here, but. No, that's great. And I think that is a, is a key and revealed in a lot of the conversations I have. So, you know, a lot of the pushback I get in general is, well, God did killed and told people to go to war in the old test. You know, that's like one of the key defenses in, in, in being there.

You know, that's like one of the key defenses in being there. But I think what that's revealing is this idea that we are tying God's providence to the United States of America. As that, you know, because God's not telling any of us. I don't I'll be bold to say I don't really think he's saying like go over and kill these people in the middle east um but if if our president or if our congress or whatever is signing uh you know laws to go to war if they're ordering soldiers to go fight in syria or wherever we are everywhere we are now we're saying that's the hand of god which is a bold statement but what we're inferring is that our secular systems are there because of what God is having them do. And it's tricky because Scripture talks about, you know, being obedient to authorities and, you know, God puts people in place when they need to.

people in place when they need to i think we have to take a step further than that and say okay where what is our role then in this in this society um and do we actually believe that's what god is saying um because there's a lot of other stuff in scripture like we're paid i feel like every conversation you have on here could end with we're pickpocketing scripture you know uh but uh like i think that's a very important distinction is what we're inferring is that this is a Christian nation, the Christian nation, because there can't be multiple because we're, we have different interests and things like that. And so that's the inference,

which I just don't see how that could be, be true. And especially when we look at what Jesus did to disband that and to move on from that, we're now not living in that. And once we get away from that, there's not much left, especially in the New Testament, in this new era of supporting killing other nations indiscriminately. There just really isn't. it's just not there if you have that please send it to me you know um i think the the only other feedback i get is the faith of the century on um which is you know he had the he had faith to save his servant, and Jesus didn't tell him to not be a centurion.

That's pretty a small example. But if we go off of what Jesus didn't say, we could really, you know, blow up this whole thing. And then if we look at that transparently with the Sermon on the Mount, that just doesn't make sense. apparently with the sermon on the mount that just doesn't make sense and and uh buy cloak and or sell your cloak and buy a gun um all these types of things or buy a sword not a gun they did not have guns yeah you know like these are just they don't make sense systemically with where we are if you take away that piece of America is not a Christian nation, it is just a secular, another secular nation. Yeah. I do think that, well, your final point is the most important. I think underlying a lot of

the churches, how it thinks through these questions has this assumption. It still has this underlying assumption that America is unique, is different, is even if they wouldn't say a Christian nation, it's like, yeah, but we're still kind of the good guys. Right. And that's where I think any kind of Christian Christianity is a multi-ethnic global kingdom of God spread among the nations. Like that is our starting point. Whatever ethic we cultivate that helps us think through

our identity in relation to the nation we're living under, it should be transferable to all Christians living around the globe. So however you frame your citizenship in America, it should be able to apply to our Chinese brothers and sisters living in China. It should apply to people living in Zimbabwe, people living in China. It should apply to, you know, people living in Zimbabwe, people living in Nigeria and South Africa, you know, like, so however we framed, this is what it means to be a good citizen. We need to serve our military and do all these things. Okay. Then let's tell our Chinese Christians the same thing that they, to be, you gotta be pro China. You gotta, well, it's like, no, well, China's bad and we're kind of good. Right? Like,

You got to be pro-China. You got to, well, it's like, no, well, China's bad and we're kind of good, right? Like, well, scripturally, I don't know. And I would be the first one to say, again, if I just put on my kind of secular hat for a second, like, of all, I think there's a lot of natural goods that the American system does produce. I do think in democracy is probably a good that human rights are a good. There's a lot of books being written recently about how even though America is not a Christian nation, there are many craters of the gospel, as Jamie Smith says, in most Western countries, the fact that we would even value like democracy. It's like, where does that come from? You know, or the freedom of all people.

Where does that come from? These are Judeo-Christian values that are kind of etched into society. So I don't want to just say every single nation is exactly the same on a moral level. No, I think there's differences. nation is exactly the same on a moral level. No, I think there's differences, but I think as we cultivate a Christian ethic, it has to be a multi-ethnic global Christian ethic that is kind of the same for the global kingdom of God. And I think we often just, we just, it's natural, we think through our ethic from our national situatedness, like the country that we are living in, but it has to be transferable. I think that is a brilliant point.

And we don't do that even as a nation, that we say we're the good guys for democracy and things. I want to be very clear. I do. There's amazing. I love America. I love my ability to live here and and all those things but we also don't do that as a country level right so uh you know the u.s was one of six countries i think it was six to uh not come out or to support the death penalty um and the other countries are like iran

north korea you know saudi arabia those type of countries where we would look at them and be like, you're the bad guy, but we're having the same ethic as them. And so are we comfortable to say that every ethic then from America is a good one? Those are just dangerous statements in general, but our call as Christians is to dig into each one of these and, and to see how we can be the most loving, kind, you know, Jesus figure to all as we can. And that's, what's hard. And that's what, what gets the pushback. Cause it's just, it's more work. And it's, and it's, and it's, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Cause once you start going then everything you

know uh starts coming at you what about this what about this what about this and it can be overwhelming and so i i also just want to say you know our role isn't to be this like moral police or or this like ethical police where we're nitpicking and pointing fingers at everything wrong everybody's doing i don't want to come off that way. And I think I can, and I probably have before with a lot of these discussions. What I really want to make clear is the grace, underlying grace in all of us is that like, we are people who are in a difficult era, in a difficult time period, figuring out a lot of things we're very interconnected we have all these different views out there and so i do want to just take a breath and say in a in the

spirit of like you have to figure everything out and be right about everything and write a book about everything and like screw everyone else that's wrong i want to take a step back from that and just invite some grace and some peace and know that our mission isn't that. Our mission is just to kind of take a next step of faith. And for me, that next step of faith was putting in a CO packet and it's brought me to where I am. And for others that might not be there, but I do invite you to think deeper about these, this topic. Um, and, and to know that the end of the, it's not the decisions that is like the end game. Jesus Christ is our end game. Um, we just have to wrestle with all of these things that we live with by listening and like, yeah, sorry, I could go on. No, no, no, it's good. No, I mean, we're all on a journey. We're all on a journey. And,

and I think we should admit too, like, I often wonder like. No, no, no, it's good. I mean, we're all on a journey. We're all on a journey. And I think we should admit too, like I often wonder like, what are the just blatant, obvious blind spots that I have in my theology, my ethic? You know, that in 200 years from now, people will look back and say, those early 20s-

What was he thinking? What was he thinking? You know, right now we look back at like, you know, all these like Christian theologians who like own slaves or were, you know, or if they weren't against slavery, they weren't opposed to it. And some like Jonathan Edwards and others, they read his books and everything. What were you thinking? Yeah, everybody has that of every era.

And I think we need to be humble enough to say, here's where I'm at on my journey. and I think we need to be humble enough to say, here's where I'm at on my journey. And I want to think through and, you know, all these issues as well as I can, knowing that there's always more to think through and I'm never going to exhaust, you know, all the arguments for every position that I have. So we should always be humble with the views that we hold, hold them, I think, passionate. Well, I often say, you know, the, the, the depth, the strength of our conviction should match the depth of our study. So like if someone asked me, you know, like what's better, you know, capitalism or democratic socialism. Well, how many books have I read on economics for me to be able to say like, Oh, definitely it's this, you know, it's like, I

don't know, some kind of form of capitalism with some kind of checks and balances seems right, I think, but we should care for those who, for whatever reason, can't, you know, would work, but can't work whatever, you know, I, I think so, but I, you know, what do I know? Like, I know I haven't like studied this in depth. So, but when you have like really drilled down deep into something, I think that, you know, you, you probably should hold, hold your view passionately, but also with a certain level of humility, knowing that you have, we have major blind spots. We just don't know what they are yet. That's why we're on a journey. Right. So all that to say, I appreciate, yeah, as a CEO, you saying, look, I am not casting judgment on people that aren't, aren't there, aren't there

yet, or maybe never will be there. You know, I think that's a very noble manner in which you hold your position. I think with the military, what's hard is we talk with our bodies, right? So like, where am I standing? You know, if you're in the military, you're wearing a uniform and you're showing up every day, you're wearing a flag on your shoulder and you're, you know, very obvious things that you're standing with. And I like to tell people to start there, you know, where is your physical body and what is that supporting? And does that need to change? You know, we can get into these dynamic things. And so that's where for me standing there, I had to make a movement with my body to represent what I believe my faith was. And that's what I

invite Christians to do and to wrestle with. Where are we standing? Who's around us? What does that support and what does that say about us? And does that need to change? Spencer, thank you so much for being a guest on Theology in a Raw. I'm honored to have played

some role in your journey without even knowing it until 10 minutes ago. Yeah, yeah, thanks. It's really an honor to be here and, and, uh, thanks for, for the work you and, and, uh, I want to give a shout out to all the CEOs that have ever been before me that have protected that right. And, and I have stood up and taken that step, you know, we live in, in their, uh, journey and their trails. So thank you all.

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