Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1124: Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rachel Joy Welcher

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Rachel Joy Welcher is a poet and author living in South Dakota with her husband, Pastor Evan Welcher, and their longed for daughter, Hildegaard. Rachel works as an editor at Fathom Magazine and Lexham Press and received her Master of Letters in theology from The University of St. Andrews in Scotland. She is the author of four books: "Blue Tarp" (Finishing Line Press, 2016), "Two Funerals, Then Easter" (Dustlings Press, 2018), "Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality" (InterVarsity Press, 2020), and "Sometimes Women Lie About Being Okay" (Dustlings Press, 2022). This podcast conversation is based on her book Talking Back to Purity Culture and it's a raw and honest one!  Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, the Exiles in Babylon conference is happening again, April 18th through the 20th in 2024 in Boise, Idaho. We're talking about deconstruction of the gospel, women, power, and abuse in the church, LGBTQ inclusion in the church, and three Christian views on politics and the gospel. We've got a loaded lineup of speakers, including Joshua Harris, Abigail Favali, Amin Hudson, Edna Wickham, Julie Slattery, Tiffany Blooms, Sandy Richter, Lori Krieg, Greg Coles, Art Perea, Brenna Blaine, Kat LaPriere, Chris Butler, Carol Swain, Brian Zahn, plus a live podcast with hip-hop all-star KB and Amin Hudson of the Southside Rabbi Podcast. Street hymns will be performing throughout the

conference. Worship by Evan Wickham and Tanika Wyatt, and also Max Licato is going to be there. All the information is at theologyintheraw.com. Again, if you want to attend live in person, I would register sooner than later. We're also going to live stream the conference, so that option is there as well. Again, Exiles in Babylon 2024, April 18th through the 20th. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Realm. My guest today is Rachel Joy Welcher, who is a poet and an author living in South Dakota. She has a master's degree from St. Andrews in Scotland and is the author of several books,

including the one that we talk about in this podcast. It is titled Talking Back to Purity Culture, Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality. And this was a very honest and engaging conversation. I'm really excited for you to jump in. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Rachel Joy Welch. Rachel, thanks so much for joining me on Theology in Iran. Oh, it's great to be here. You've been a pretty highly requested guest, by the way. In fact, just yesterday, I was going through some messages from my Patreon supporters.

And one in particular was like, hey, are you going to have Rachel on yet? Because she was one of the many that have been suggesting me. I'm like, I'm actually recording tomorrow with her. So yeah, she's really excited about this conversation. So thanks so much for being on Theology in a Raw. For those who don't know who you are, why don't you give us just a quick backstory about who you are. And then I want to get in fairly quickly to your book, Talking Back to Purity Culture, which is a pretty provocative title. I remember seeing this a few years ago when it came out. I'm like, ooh, this is going to be interesting. Yeah. And actually, I'll introduce myself, but that title started as a hashtag I

used when I was doing some research. And then, you know, usually you don't get to name your own book, but it stuck. Yeah. But anyway, I'm Rachel. I'm a pastor's kid and I'm actually a pastor's wife as well. And I'm from California, but I live in a little town in South Dakota right now where my husband pastors a Baptist church. And I work for an editor, or I'm sorry, I work as an editor at Lexham Press and Fathom Magazine. And we've got a little two-year-old named Hildegard. Awesome. California to South Dakota. That's like whiplash.

You know, I will say this. It's amazing what you can grow here. So I'm not a gardener, but I've been able to have this flourishing garden, growing all these vegetables. And you don't have to do anything because the dirt is just magic really interesting it's really it is it's magic so um there's i've come to appreciate some things about the midwest for sure it has its own beauty um but the winter's long i bet yeah i've been to um is it i always forget sioux falls right sioux falls i'm real close to sioux oh you are that's a cool littleoux Falls, right? Sioux Falls. I'm real close to Sioux Falls.

Oh, you are. That's a cool little town. I've flown in there a couple of times. I'm like, this is, this is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Really? There, there are some hidden treasures around here for sure.

Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Okay. So yeah. Talking back to purity culture. I mean, it's, it's, it's a fantastic book. I love how honest you are and I love how, I don't always's a fantastic book. I love how honest you are. And I love how I don't always like the term balanced.

You know, I don't want to get it. But in the best possible sense of the term, I feel like it is balanced. Very clearly have some serious problems and issues with purity culture. very clearly have some serious problems and issues with purity culture. And yet you do bring us back to, you know, sexual immorality is bad. The gospel is good. God has a sexual ethic that he wants us to, but you know, so, so you do bring it back to that, which I thought was really helpful, but what, what led you to want to write this book? Oh, a few different things. I had just gone through a divorce. I'd met my husband at Bible college, and he, about five years into our marriage, decided he wasn't a believer

anymore, and he didn't want to be married to me. And so I'd kind of had this personal crisis where I had followed all the purity culture rules and thought that would mean that I'd have a marriage that would last. And then here I was, almost 30, divorced, and just very confused about, it almost felt like I was being punished and I didn't know what for. In a personal way, I had to deal with some of those messages I had taken in as really a prosperity gospel. And I had to deal with, okay, is what I believed about sex and purity and marriage, did all that come from scripture or did some of it come maybe from this kind of cultural moment we had or even my own misinterpretation of the Bible? And then at the same time, here I was divorced. I quit my job. I moved back in with my parents. I was 29 and I decided to go back to school and I got my master's in theology. And so at that time you had to pick a dissertation topic.

And so I, I just wanted to go back and read all those books from when I was a teenager and see if they withstood the test of time to see what I agreed with, what I didn't. What I really wanted to see was how those books spoke to someone who'd been sexually abused. So that's what I focused in my research on for school was, did we write these books in a way that made victims of sexual abuse feel almost re-victimized? And so then from there, I ended up writing an entire book on it after I graduated. And so, you know, it's personal, but it's also for those who've been abused. And it's also for, for Christians who know that

we got some things wrong, but they, they know we also got some things right and they don't want to abandon scripture, um, in their critique. And so I think, yeah, so it's, it's for Christians like that. And I, you know, a lot of books have been pushing back against purity culture, and then they throw out the gospel with it, or books defending purity culture in ways that I can't get on board with. And so my goal was to say, here are some things that we got wrong that weren't in scripture, and here are some things that are timeless scriptural truths that we have to deal with in a very confused generation. Yeah, let's start there. What are some of the biggest ones that we got wrong in purity? Maybe, I mean, we probably don't need to do this, but just for the sake of maybe a few that need it,

give us a definition of when we say purity culture, what do you refer to? And then what are some of the main things that you find that we got wrong within that movement? There are different religions who have their own version of a purity culture. And there's also different times in history. I think of the Victorian era. But what I'm referring to is this kind of cultural moment that happened coming out of the free love era and even the 80s, where people were scared of STDs and teen pregnancy. where people were scared of STDs and teen pregnancy. And so there was this huge push, both in the church and in actually public schools,

to promote abstinence education. And so it was really a solution to a problem. And it was a response in many ways of fear. And it was understandable. Parents thought, I don't want my kids to get sick. And I don't want them to get pregnant when they're 15. And so I think what happened was, there was such a huge emphasis on it that it took on a life of its own. And so I kind of picture a snowball rolling down a hill, you know, gathering speed and and gathering some dirt and sticks. And that's kind of what happened to the message.

It even when it when it entered public schools, the message of Jesus had to be removed. And so there was even a whole, I don't even know what to call it, a whole genre of purity culture that was secular. And so how do you convince a room full of adolescents to save sex for marriage if it has nothing to do with their faith. And of course there was problems with even trying to convince Christian kids of that, but you have to say you're going to get something better if you do. And so that brings me to the first, I think, major problem with the purity culture. And this mainly happened in evangelicalism. I know it happened in Catholicism as well, but I'm not a Catholic, so I can't speak to that. But I've talked to some Catholics, I've talked to some Mormons, and they've said that, hey, this actually really resonates with what we went through too.

we seem to think that the only way to get teenagers to commit to purity was to tell them that they would be rewarded if they did. And so there was a huge emphasis on the things that could go wrong if you had sex before marriage, which, you know, those things could go wrong, STDs, pregnancy. And then there was a huge push that if you saved sex for marriage, you wouldn't have any baggage when you entered marriage. You would be giving your spouse this amazing gift of your virginity. You would have children with ease, one author said, implying that you wouldn't struggle with fertility. Yeah. And my goodness, we could talk about that. And then, and that you would have incredible sex from night one. So your wedding night will just blow your mind. You know, you're guaranteed these things if you obey. The other message was, if you mess up, you just robbed your spouse. You can't get that back. So like, you'll never be presenting a whole person to your spouse if you mess up. And so then that was the other side is like, here's the things you will earn. And then here are the ways that you are not a complete person anymore because you lost these parts of yourself. You gave them away.

Now, we can see where there's some truths girding up some of these or how maybe they started. They sprouted from a truth. And so we could talk about that. But in and of itself, it was a prosperity gospel. And so we could talk about that, but in and of itself, it was a prosperity gospel. Would you say that that was that kind of promise? If you do this, then God will reward you. Was that explicitly stated or implied or both? It depends on maybe which book, but did people really come out and say those words?

Or was it more like kind of the impression that people gathered from reading what they're saying you know i mean yeah that's the really that's a really good question um i think the answer is both quite a few authors straight up said if you save yourself for marriage you will have an incredible sex life your marriage will last i mean they did they said that so no but again i think to give them the benefit of the doubt, they were trying to think of ways to encourage right behavior. It's just that the motivation was wrong because the motivation was about self. And that really only takes so far, right? Because then picture an evangelical woman who has saved sex for marriage, but now she's 38 and she's still single. Well, what motivation does

she have? If she was saving sex for marriage so she could get something in the future and it hasn't come to fruition, then her motivation, that selfish motivation is going to crumble, right? And so I think it's really important that when we talk about sexual purity, we have to have the right motive of God's glory or else the foundation is going to fall when we are feeling weak or discouraged or even maybe neglected by God. Yeah. The promise of the false promise, the prosperity gospel. To me, as I kind of, I've said this on the air, online or in the podcast so much that I hope this isn't so redundant for people listening, but just for the sake of you and this conversation, like I, I grew up in the purity era, but whatever I absorbed, it was very much implicit. I've never read, never read I Kissed Dating Goodbye,

Every Man's Battle. No, no, no. I was too into like Pauline theology and stuff that I didn't, you know? And so, um, I remember all, I remember hearing about a guy named Joshua Harris who wrote a book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye. And I remember all the girls, it had such a reverse effects. All the girls on my Christian college I was at, he became almost like this, like sex icon. Like he's so godly. So I wish I could marry somebody who's kissed dating, you know, like it was like, and all this, you know, young Christian guys are kind of jealous. Like, I wish I wrote a book on kissing, dating, goodbye. I get all kinds of dates, you know, it was just, it was weird, but it's such a, it was just kind of barely in the air that I remember, you know?

So, um, I, and, but my wife and I, especially with three teenage girls, you know, last few years have been having conversations about this and realize that we we've absorbed some stuff that I didn't know where it came from. My wife, I think my wife did have more explicit stuff in, in college that she's like, Oh no, I was told that like, Oh wow. I literally didn't even know that. So, um, so we were of the periodic era, but not knee deep in it. And, and yet still are very much unraveling some stuff. I'm like, oh my gosh, did I really say that to my, my, my daughters will say, well, dad, you said, I'm like, I am so sorry. I just, it just like came out. I just like in my blood.

So, um, anyway, that's where I'm coming from. That experience you just described sounds pretty typical that your wife would have gotten a little bit more of it. Right. Because when they divided the girls and guys up in youth group or even at the Christian college I went to, we were almost always talked to about the same things. Modesty, you know, preserving our virginity and our treasure. You know, these were just things we were told over and over again. And then when we'd ask the guys what they talked about, it was porn and masturbation and, you know, lust. And it was just very interesting.

And that's a whole, I tackled that in a few chapters that, you know, men were talked to about lust, but women were struggling with it. And so then that's a whole thing where women felt like there was something wrong with them, that they had a sex drive. And then men, it was taught as though men have this insatiable sex drive, but men are all different, right? And that really put them in a box. But also, it made young men feel as though that was the only way to be holy. And that was the only topic that mattered. And I think too, we just have had this really conflicted message for men. On one hand, we've said, you have to have self-control. And then on the other hand, we've said, but you can barely have self-control.

You're like an animal. So, and I almost think that that's become a self-fulfilling prophecy for some men. When you say, well, men are just these sexual beings and you can't really blame them. Like they're not supposed to, but if the guy does it, it's understandable. If the girl does it, whoa. You know, I think that that message, even though that's a very, it's understandable. If the girl does it, whoa. Right. You know? Right. I think that that message, even though that's a very – it's not in Scripture, it has really permeated a lot of Christian literature and sermons.

We do depict men as less able to have self-control, as though they don't have the Holy Spirit as much as women do. And so there's just so much we could talk to talk about. So in my, again, vague recollection, this is me reaching back 25 years ago. Um, I, my specific environment, very conservative, had a lot of purity culture in it, but when it came to the guys, I think there, there was more of an emphasis on if you lust, it's your fault. I never remember hearing anything about if you're stumbling over a girl,

well, then that's, you know, women just need to... It was more like, hey, you're a man. You got the Holy Spirit. You stop it. For me, I think it was a bit of a both and because I do remember hearing especially girls talking and the talks they would get. It's still, it was a book for me. I think it was a bit of a both and, cause I do remember hearing, especially girls talking in the talks that we'd get. It's very much everything you described in the book. I just remember hearing a little bit. I never, I never got the impression of like, well, I'm a guy. It's just kind of, kind of happened. And

if it doesn't happen, if I do slip up, then it's kind of, well, she shouldn't be wearing that job. Like I never remember getting that. That's encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. And that, you know, your, your experience matters. And I, my husband didn't grow up in the church, but he was converted like right near the end of high school. And then in Bible college, he got a little bit of it and he said the same thing. He said, you know, he was given the impression that it was up to him. Um, and so I don't, I don't think everyone, but here's what I would say is that the emphasis for men on lust, I wonder if even just assuming that all you ever do is lust has a bit of a self-fulfilling, um, nature to it. So even saying you better not, they're also

acting as though sex is the only thing that matters to men. Um, whereas there are other things that matter to men are other things that matter to men and other things that matter to women. In some ways, I just think it reduced us down. Um, first of all, scripture has, there are so many fruits of the spirit, you know, that would actually help us blessed. But, um, there's so many ways that I wish young people had been discipled, um, that I think were neglected because of this fear about, uh, sexual impurity. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a quote I'm looking for in your book that you, as you were talking to like, oh my gosh, this, um, let me see if I could find it. I got somebody highlights it. Oh yeah. Oh here. Okay. Okay. Uh, page 63, the problem of male lust is not solved by looking away from women, but by looking at them correctly as more than their physical bodies.

The temptations they pose or the sexual satisfaction they provide. They must learn to see them as guys, must learn to see them as sisters, image bearers, and co-heirs of the kingdom of God. I thought that was just such a helpful correction. heirs and co-heirs of the kingdom of God. I thought that was just such a helpful correction rather than just looking away, like look at them for who we really are. Yeah. And Every Man's Battle was probably the most popular book for men. And actually what's interesting is if you go to a Barnes & Noble Christian section, you will see tons of copies of that book and wild at heart still, even though it came out years ago. So it's, it's still selling quite a bit. And I remember almost every teenage boy I knew had a copy of it that their parents had given them. And so when I read

it, what I saw was that the main advice was, well, the advice was don't lust, but the way you solve lust is by just diverting your eyes. They talked about women almost like bugs, like Zapathot. And so on one hand, I think I mentioned this in my book, but it's like Joseph had to actually run away and flee Potiphar's wife and leave his garment. So there are moments where you are so tempted that you've got to run. But our goal should not be that we are so susceptible to sexual lust that we can't be around each other and can't be a family. And so I think that while obviously, say, if a teenage boy or a teenage girl is really struggling,

so they need to limit their interaction with a certain person for a while or not watch that movie or whatever it is. I understand that. And I, and I think there's a place for that, but Christian maturity would be that we are able to look at each other as whole beings, brothers and sisters, and have relationships with one another that aren't just completely drenched in fear about sexual temptation. You know, that that's the goal. We're a family. Yeah. That's, that's so good. Um, I do want to get to the Billy Graham rule cause you talk about that. Um, which I thought was really, really helpful. Um, uh, well,

before we do though, what are some, so, so let's go back to the main kind of problems of the purity culture that you would see as departing from kind of a biblical view of sexuality. Number one, the kind of, uh, the sexuality. Number one, the kind of the prosperity gospel. If you remain pure, then God will bless you with a spouse, amazing sex life, all this stuff, which just theologically, dude, is so bad. It is that. I love that we have put the label prosperity gospel on that because that's kind of like,

wait, wait, we don't believe in. No, no. Actually, that's by definition what is going on there. So I think that's, I think is, I think probably the most dangerous theological part of the purity culture, in my opinion, is that issue. What would you say is number two, three, four major things that is departing from kind of a biblical view of sexuality? Well, I mean, one would be what we were just talking about, that to assume that men, for instance, don't have the Holy Spirit or can't say no, and then to dehumanize women by assuming that their worth is their sexual function. And so virginity was a huge emphasis. And I don't know what men heard about virginity, but I know that what women heard was that it was the best gift. I mean, this is a quote from multiple books. if you've been raped, you can't give that gift.

If you have messed up, but you've repented and you have committed yourself to sexual purity, you are still going to rob your spouse of the best thing you could have given them. And so what happens is I think there's this, you feel defeated before you even begin, right? So think of like a new Christian who's had sex and they're told, well, listen, virginity was the gift and now that's gone. I think that first of all, it's not true, right? The greatest gift you could give your spouse is a heart surrendered to Christ right now. And whether you have sexual baggage or you don't, and here's the other side too. Say you are a virgin,

but I knew so many virgins, including myself, who still had sexual sin in their life. Maybe it was in their mind. Maybe it was, maybe they were watching porn, masturbate, whatever it was. They'd found a way around, you know, okay, I'm technically a virgin. But in some ways it made it seem like there was only one way to be holy. And I think there were a lot of problems with that. It discouraged those who had sinned, but it also made those who had also sinned feel like they were okay because they were virgins. So that was one message. I have a whole chapter dedicated to this topic of virginity. And I think what's more important is that we would tell people right now,

wherever you're at, to commit yourself to honoring God with your body and your sexuality. And when you fail, whether it's you have a thought, a fleeting thought, or you give in in a bigger way, that you repent and you turn from your sin.

Each new day is mercies are new every morning. And that's not to downplay just how important sex is to marriage or how devastating it can be to have sex outside of marriage. I mean, it is true that you can get an STD and you can get pregnant. I mean, those things are true. And so I don't mean to downplay that,

but there were these, there were these metaphors, you know, like the rose, the crinkled rose, but even this one book has an image of a chocolate cake. And she said, even if you spend too much time with a guy and talk to him about too many deep things, it's like you cut a piece of the cake out. And when you get married, you're giving your spouse a less whole cake. And so there was this image that you actually are like a fragment of a person because of your past or because of what's been done to you. And I think that is not what the gospel says. The gospel says that Jesus makes us a new creation.

And so I think there just has to be a balance there. Again, it's like, I'm not going to tell my daughter that it's not a big deal to have sex outside of marriage because I think there just has to be a balance there. You know, again, it's like, I'm not going to tell my daughter that it's not a big deal to have sex outside of marriage because I think it is a big deal. But I don't want her to believe that virginity is the only thing that matters about her or that if she makes a mistake that God can't forgive it or that she couldn't have a good marriage in the future. Right? And then that was something that was, again, communicated maybe explicitly or at least implicitly in a lot of the purity

culture rhetoric. Yeah. Cause that's, that's, that's, that's the tension for me. Like I, I sexual immorality, all forms are treated very seriously in scripture. And then first Corinthians six, there's debates about, you know, what it means, but you know, all sins, the sins inside the body versus outside the body or whatever, you know, 1 Corinthians 6, there's debates about, you know, what it means, but, you know, all sins, sins inside the body versus outside the body or whatever. Like there is, there's something like, what word do I want? Can I say uniqueness?

Yeah. I don't want to say it's worse. I think lack of concern for the poor is, and idolatry is probably the worst sins. I don't know. I hesitate always ranking sins or whatever. sins. I don't know. I get hesitant always ranking sins or whatever, but what I can say is without comparing it and getting too deep, I can say that sexual immorality, porneia is treated very seriously in the Bible. Okay. So that's, that's the one side on the other side, we've done all this weird stuff with making your sanctification reduced to, if you, as long as

you're a virgin, then you can be filled with pride and disdain for the poor and have weird forms of nationalism. You can be a Christian nationalism and disdain for the poor and have weird forms of nationalism. You can be a Christian nationalist and all this. And as long as you're a virgin, you know. So I'm deeply concerned about that. At the same time, how do we preserve the seriousness of this part of your sanctification without idolizing it, you know, or giving a work perception? That's the question, right? And I mean, as Protestants, we don't have a very developed theology of the body. And maybe that's one of

many places to start. So Catholics have focused on this for years, but we need, and I know there have been a couple of really good books that have come out in the last few years in the more Protestant evangelical camp about the body, but rather than de-emphasizing our bodies and saying sexuality doesn't matter, you know, being Gnostic, I think we say our bodies matter so much to God. He loves us and he cherishes us. And so, you know, you've got these three teenage girls. Yeah. Yeah. One's married. Well, I'm sorry. My oldest is 20 and she's married. So you want them to, um, to know that God values every aspect of who they are. Right. And so, um, I think rather than saying that the way we solve purity culture issues is to de-emphasize

the body or de-emphasize sexuality. I don't. I don't think that's the solution. I think it's maybe about how we talk about those things. And to return to the fact that Jesus makes us pure. And the more we fall in love with Jesus, the more we want to be like him. And so I'm going to give a talk next week at Biola University, and I titled it, Virginity is not Salvation, but Chastity Can Be Worship. Oh, it's so good. Rachel, did you coin that? I think so. I mean, if I stole it, I don't know.

You hit both sides of that really well. That's really good. That's kind of what I've been wrestling with because I've got a daughter too, and she's only two years old, but I, I have been thinking like, what might I disagree? I wrote that book three years ago. Now that I'm a mom of a daughter, would there be things that I would change? And I think one of the things I've been wrestling with is, okay,

I do want her to know that sex is for marriage. And I do want her to care about making sure her sexuality is part of how she honors God. That matters to me. And I don't want her to have to live with some of the devastation and consequences of sexual sin. But I also want her to know that forgiveness in Christ is deep and wide and that her purity ultimately finds a source in Jesus. And Jesus doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And so, yeah, how do you strike that balance of, on one hand, almost wanting to warn your

kids? Because I think scripture does warn us against fornication, for sure. to warn your kids, because I think scripture does warn us against fornication for sure. But then also to make sure that you aren't making your kid feel like there is an unforgivable sin out there. I'll tell a quick story. I was best friends with a sweet girl growing up and at age 15, she became pregnant. And I remember thinking, well, she's not saved, I guess. I mean, I really did. I thought, well, there's no way she would do that because like that's the sin and that she would actually be a Christian. And I, you know, she went through a period of some really hard things and she's actually is a believer now and just a wonderful person. But I'm so ashamed that I equated salvation with virginity. Um, but I,

and no one had ever said that, that, that virginity and salvation are synonymous. That's, that's never been stated, but my goodness, even with all the good theology I'd received and the great parents I had, somehow I had ingested that, you know, somehow I had, um, that was my conclusion that you couldn't sin that badly if you really loved Jesus. And I don't want my daughter to think that I don't want her to think that, um, that there's something that God can't forgive because that's not what the Bible says. So I would be slandering God's word. I, yeah, I, I, I could resonate with that perspective in my early Christian days of like, yeah, someone had sex outside.

That would be like, category? Like, what? Oh, I would think the same thing. Although I also thought John Stott wasn't a Christian when I found out he was an annihilationist. I mean, basically, few people were actual Christians in the environment. Oh, man. I went to John MacArthur's college, so. Wait, I did too.

We're talking about the same college. You went to master's? Yeah. What? Wait, you went to master's? Yeah. We're talking about the same environment. Oh my gosh.

That's hilarious. Yeah, well, when you said that, I thought, oh, that sounds exactly like how I was raised. Yeah, Mike. Okay, okay. How did we not know this? Did we know this? We did not know this. What year did you graduate? Yes. I graduated in 2007. Yep. So I was to your class of 2000. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my word. Okay. So, um, let me just add a caveat. I actually had a really great experience there. It was, it was a

great, um, time in my Christian journey. It's exactly, or it was, it was what I needed as an early convert had, had really great experience. There's still have fond, fond memories. Um, I found the seminary, some of the seminary too. And that was the seminary felt much, I feel like masters was a conservative evangelical college. The seminary felt more fundamentalist. If we want to make that, if that makes sense. Yeah.

And again, even there, I wouldn't say all of it was bad. I had good memories, you know? I think for me it was, and this was kind of there at the college, but definitely at the seminary,

this, this thick perception in the air that basically everybody else is kind of on a slippery slope. Like there's one seminary. No, I mean, I had people literally tell like, this is the seminary. This is everybody else's kind of has off on some level. Uh, John Piper was suspicious because he was charismatic. Wayne Grudem was suspicious or suspicious of him because he, um, you know, he was charismatic too. And, and, and even, uh, Al Mohler, Al Mohler wasn't a dispensationalist.

So, you know, so I think that, that kind of, sorry, I keep talking. No, I was just going to say everything you're describing. And I had a good experience at masters too. Um, I had really great professors and had made lifelong friends. So I, um, but you know, know, I wouldn't send my daughter there. I know that's a big statement, but well, I shouldn't say that, but no, I don't think I would. I wouldn't and not that there's not anything good there.

It's just that I think there's other options without some of the kind of legalism and just these kinds of things. Like there's certain things. I don't think, I think my daughters are, I don't think they would do well. Like they, they would be, I don't, I don't think it would, let me say, let me, let me abstract it. Okay. I think environments like the one we're talking about, whatever, whatever the environment that is, I think it would push my kids further away from the gospel and Jesus and toward it. Is that, I think how they're, I think it would not be good. I think that's what we're seeing, actually, with a lot of people who attended, who lived in those kind of spaces. In fact, a lot of my former classmates have

deconstructed and deconverted because they look at it and they say, look at some of the legalism and hypocrisy, or look at how John MacArthur endorsed Trump and those kind of things. And so, yeah, I think that there were, there was some bitterness, rightful bitterness created against legalism from those, from those camps. I was able to come out of it and say, this was wrong. This was wrong. This was right. This was right. Um, but I think you're right. Like that's why I wouldn't send my daughter there either, because I think mainly because of the spiritual pride that it produced in me. And in so many, um, that we were, we've got the answers and no one else is quite as right as us, um, is really what I walked away

with. And then I had to shed that and it took years. And so anyway, that's a whole other topic. That's so interesting. I had no idea. That's exactly, I mean, that's exact. You understand, man, that's, that's a shared experience that very unique. My dad was ordained by MacArthur. No way. Wow. Yeah. But you know what? I have to say this. My, my mom was saved at a Billy Graham crusade and then joined the college group at MacArthur's church when he, he still wasn't a big deal then. And, you know, that experience really did disciple

my parents in ways that I'm thankful for, you know, and so it's, I have a lot of problems with some of the things MacArthur says and some of the things that the church has done for sure. Um, big problems, but it's not, I am, I am thankful in some ways for the solid foundation. Um, uh, you know, the biblical literacy that I was raised with because of that. So I can't, I can't just throw the baby out of the bathwater, although I don't read MacArthur's books anymore, but, um, but I'm not going to say that, you know, that he didn't have a, a, a good impact in some ways in my family's life. Was, uh, was, uh, uh, family's life. Was Varner there when you were there? Will Varner? Yeah. Yep. Varner.

I love, he had such an impact on my life. What about, you didn't have Jason Beals, did you? He came after you. Did he also teach at Biola? No, no, no. Okay okay because i had beely beely beely he was awesome love beely yeah i had beely jason beals teaches her now he's he was my college he was a roommate with my best friends at yeah um yeah varner yeah again i i the college again i feel like again stuff there i'm like i'm, I'm not where they would be.

Although I, I, again, so many great things I walked away with, but it's kind of like in a degree, I'm fine agreeing to disagree on several things or whatever. But, um, there, there was also just maybe stuff in the air that wasn't being taught directly. It was just, you know, something just kind of just is, becomes part of a culture and that, that culture of suspicion toward everybody that's not in your tribe, I think, is really dangerous. Hey, friends, it's Chris Sprinkle here. Preston and I are always looking for ways to come alongside and help empower vulnerable people.

And that's why I'm so excited to tell you about Noonday Collection. I learned about Noonday Collection. I learned about Noonday Collection several months ago and have been so impressed by its heart and mission behind it. It partners with artisans in 15 different countries by creating dignified jobs and employment opportunities for people in vulnerable communities. And because of their fair wages and their dignified work, women are leaving prostitution and children are receiving an education and families are even staying together. Our friend Jessica Honiger, she started Noonday Collection over 13 years ago because she wanted to help empower women around the globe to find a way for sustainable living and freedom.

She's gone around the world looking for unrecognized talented artisans and created a business partnership with them. So if you're looking for high quality jewelry, clothing and accessories and you care about empowering vulnerable women, come shop with Noonday Collection. All the products are high quality, handcrafted and honestly, they are incredibly beautiful. If you're needing an accessory for yourself or you need a gift for a friend, consider purchasing it at Noonday. By doing so, you are making a difference in the world's most vulnerable communities. Go to chrissprinkle.noondaycollection.com. That is chrissprinkle.noondaycollection.com. That's noondaycollection.com. Okay, so some of these purity culture writers, when we take a generous approach, like the one you're taking, which I appreciate, well, you even said like, you know, well, some of these messages, they were well intended, but they had this really negative impact. And somebody asked me recently, what's worse? Do people get off? Like, are they kind of off the hook?

Do we say, well, it's well-intended, so we can't say anything negative? Or does the impact of well-intended bad teaching, does that kind of outweigh the good intentions? Does that question kind of make sense? And I'm not even sure. And I don't know how to answer. Because to personalize it, I'll question kind of make sense? And I'm not even sure. And I don't know how to answer it. Cause I, to, to, to personalize it, I get, I'll get accused of stuff. It's like, well, you didn't, you didn't really say that, but it affected me this way. I'm like, well, I didn't say it or I didn't believe it, or I didn't mean to say it like that or whatever. Like, you know,

impact, it can be fuzzy. It can be subjective. I can say the same thing. It could impact five people positively, five people negatively. And I, how much control do I have over impact at the same time? That's a real, you know, James three, one lesson, let not many of you be teachers. Like there, there is this responsibility when you're writing and speaking too. So have you thought through this? Oh gosh. Yeah. And you know, I, I get a lot of pushback from hyper conservative crowds and then quite a bit from more liberal and progressive Christians. And so I've definitely thought through, like, the impact of my words and the ways that they can be interpreted. I will say this. So one thing I will say is that I do think that our current generation and cultural moment really

downplays personal responsibility. Okay. So I know that's not a popular thing to say, but it is true. We, we, we are responsible before God for our own actions. And so we do need to take some ownership over, over, you know, what we do and how we, how we interpret things. But that's not to say that there aren't real victims. There absolutely are. And that there aren't real victimizers. There are. But you're talking about someone who probably prayed while they were writing the book, right? And I'm sure you've prayed while writing your books. And I know I've prayed while writing this book. I even just came out with an article recently that's receiving quite a bit of pushback. And I prayed deeply about it. What's so difficult is knowing that we are fallible and we're not always going to get it right, but we're still putting it out there. And I really wrestle with

that. There are times when I think I just need to shut up and not speak to this issue. And I do. And then other times when I feel my husband will even say, you need to speak to this issue. And I do. And then other times when I feel my husband will even say, you need to speak to this issue. You need to take your confidence in the Lord and be brave because God is, you know, I think God is asking you to speak to this issue. And so it is really tough. I think being a teacher or a writer or pastor, you just have to have a lot of humility and be willing to say, if someone says, Hey, this is how I took what you said to, to really hear them and listen. And you don't always have to say, well, I'm going to change. I'm going to delete that article or I'm never going to write

again. I don't think that's the right response, but you could say, I want to learn from this, or you could even just say, I am so sorry that I hurt you, you know, and move on. So it's back to your question, you know, did, did these writers do more harm than good? Yeah, I think they did. I think they did some of them. And yet I'm a writer myself and I know that I am not perfect and that people are going to critique my words as well. And of course I want them to be, um, gracious with me because I am just a person. I'm a sinner saint. And so I really tried to treat the writers that I wrote about with that in mind that I am also an author who is going to make mistakes. And so, um, you know, we're not in a, in a, um, in a cultural moment that treats mistakes very generously.

So, you know, if you mess up, if you say, if you tweet the wrong thing, you're done. But Jesus isn't like that. And so I think we need to treat other people the way that we want to be treated, which I did not coin. I mean, seriously, doesn't it come back to the golden rule when it comes to, okay, so you interpreted something in a certain way and it hurt you. You can tell that person, but you should also forgive them when they say they're sorry. Right? So I don't know. It's a tough question and I wrestle with it a lot as a writer. I'm so thankful that even if people don't forgive us, that God does. That's good. That's a great as a writer. I'm so thankful that even if people don't forgive us, that God does. That's good. That's a great perspective, Rachel. Do you know any authors in particular that have

changed, tweaked, learned from maybe some of their messages that they wrote in the early 2000s? I mean, besides Joshua Harris, we know his story. Yeah, and it kind of went full 180. You know, I haven't talked to her in person, but the woman who wrote the book I talk about, The Bride Wore White, why am I blanking on her name? Dana Gresh? Yeah, Dana Gresh. From what I can tell, she has evolved in some of her views. I don't know that she's taken those books off the shelf,

and I don't know exactly where she stands, but I've heard from others that she, that her view of these things has evolved and that she's not speaking the quite the same way about these issues. I've heard the same. I've heard that. I've never read her previous stuff, but I've heard, um, I read a few more recent articles. I forget why I was reading something and I was expecting this like heavy purity stuff. Like some of the stuff you talked about, I was like, Oh, this isn't, but then I looked, it was more recent. I'm like, this isn't, I might, I might word things differently, but this is not the stuff that I hear. I think she's listening to people. Um, I know she did a quick spot on Joshua Harris's documentary where he was questioning what he

taught and it seemed like she was, um, you know, being very humble about it. And then Sheila Gregor, who wrote the great sex rescue, she had actually taken books of hers off the shelf. Um, once she realized how they were coming across. So, um, I don't know how many books, how many authors are doing that. Um, but you know, I imagine, I imagine that there are quite a few who are saying, listen, if I wrote this book again today, here's what I would say. And that's all we can ask because that's all we're going to, you know, be able to do as well with our own books is to say, oh man, I wish I had said this, or I wish I hadn't said that.

And God forgive me. I will say this. I should have told you this ahead of time, but whenever I have, I've had maybe half a dozen ish, maybe more, uh, people who are somehow involved in the purity conversation, whether critiquing it or have been maybe on the other side or have been accused of being on the advocating for purity culture on the podcast. And it never fails. Every time I have somebody on, I get an email from somebody, an actual author on the other side saying I was totally misrepresented. And I feel like I get that all the time. In fact, this episode, we haven't really named any names, but I guarantee, well, we named not negatively, but I mean, in the past and people say, well, so-and-so says that I'll get an email from that person.

Because a lot of people listen to this podcast saying that was taken out of context or I have whatever. And so I do think, and this is where i i um yeah i don't know what to do with that i i i could wade through all the literature and play referee or whatever or i can just listen and learn from people or whatever so yeah i'm curious yeah how people have yeah evolved or thinking have you know like i'm talking like sean mcdowell who's you know son of josh mcdowell and and i think sean is a great i don't think he would disagree with anything yeah we would say no i've talked to him yeah and actually i'm uh i'm speaking at viola next week and he's one of the other speakers he um no i think he is really respectful of his father and yet is also trying to see what

this generation needs to hear yeah so that's a great example um i'm trying to see what this generation needs to hear. So that's a great example. I'm trying to think of who else, but you know, it's, here's what I did with the book. What I did was I read, I really tried to represent the context of the quotes, but what I also did was I interviewed a ton of people and heard how they heard those quotes. So it is true that it,

how it was perceived. And so maybe it isn't what the author meant. And then the question is, which matters more, what the author intended or how it was taken? And that's an impossible question for me as a writer. It's hard. It's hard. I mean, part of it, you have to get to know the author. Because I know some authors that I'm like, yeah, they probably can care less about the impact they're having. Others that are deeply concerned that, that, that will say things that might be slightly off or, you know, somebody that maybe had a really bad upbringing will hear things a certain way

that's not intended to. And it's hard to, it's super hard to control that, you know, or I don't know. It's, it's hard. Cause I, again, I get, I'm, I've been, people say all the, you know, all kinds of things like, well, you said this, or this made me feel this way. I'm like, what do you do? And especially in this day and age, it's like, either you just don't write and just go get a construction job or something, or it's like, well, yeah, somebody somewhere is going to be really deeply hurt by something you said.

And I don't know. Um, hopefully, hopefully the positive responses are outweighing the negative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, with this particular book, it's been maybe 50, 50. Um, I don't know, maybe that's not accurate, but yeah, I mean, it definitely was not the kind of, and I knew that I knew going into it, that it was such a fragile subject and that it was going to, um, anger people. And, and so I did

write it with a lot of fear and trembling. And even now when I occasionally speak about, you know, speak about this, these topics, I realized that I I'm talking about things that are so intimate to people's lives that, you know, these memories they hold or trauma that they hold. Sexuality is just a very fragile thing for us. And so it is a topic where I think we can expect that people are going to have big reactions and maybe just, you know, prepare ourselves to be passionate. But then the other side of it is to not talk about it isn't right either, because there's the people who are speaking so loudly right now are speaking in a way that doesn't represent God's word. And they're saying, you know, do anything you want. God loves you. So you can do anything you want sexually. Well, that is not what the Bible says. That is not what

God says. That is not what Jesus says. And we have to care what Jesus says if we are followers of him. And so we do have to keep talking about these things, even though they are offensive. And so that's the other side is we know that if we speak the truth about sexuality, we're going to get in trouble. And that's not the same thing. I know nothing about that. Yeah, you know nothing. You know, you and I actually spoke at the same conference two years ago. Which one was that? Revoice. Oh, actually spoke at the same conference two years ago. Which one was that?

Revoice. Oh, we spoke at the same year? Yeah. I was hugely pregnant. Oh, right. Now I remember. That's right. No, you told me on email.

That's right. Yeah. What did I do? I think I just did a panel, but I was eight months pregnant with Hildy. Yeah. So, and I remember hearing you and, you know, you, you broached topics that people just understandably get very upset about, because again, it, it affects maybe you're talking about their kid or their grandkid or that their own relationship. And so these are such personal, fragile things. And, and you know that,

and I know that, and we're not always going to get it right. But as my husband tells me, it's like, but you still need to be brave and bold and ask the Holy Spirit to work through you. Otherwise, you know, all those, all the voices will be silenced. And so it's, it's a difficult you know, we just have to constantly pray about pride and ask God to search our hearts. I mean, what else can we do? Yeah, I've told people, with this podcast in particular, this is a free-flowing conversational podcast. We're not scripting our words. In any natural conversation, people are going to say things that are less nuanced, off the cuff.

It's not like you're writing a book where you're pouring over every word. You have four editors coming through it. You have all this screening that happens. This is a free flowing conversation. If I was going to hang out with anybody listening and listen to their living room conversations, what would that sound like? We'd find all kinds of heresy and stuff, you know, like, um, so, so the genre of what's going on here is raw. It's uncut. It's unedited. Um, and, and I think some people that, that, so some things could be said, some things could be, you know, I might have a guest on that might say something that I don't challenge because it's like mid sentence, it'd be odd for me to cut them off every time and say, no, that's not right or whatever. And,

and people don't understand people that don't understand that kind of the podcast, maybe conversational genre, you know, or like sometimes I'll freak out, you know, over, um, how we go about things. But, um, yeah, I can't stand it. I'm not like, yeah, that I just, I, that I get so annoyed. This is anyway. Yeah. Um, oh, are there modern, um, modern purity books written? Cause we know about all the ones in the late 90s, early 2000s. Is this something that, is purity culture still the fumes that are still out there from that early 2000 movement? Or is there still people actively promoting what we would call that is still purity culture? You know, that's a really good question. still purity culture? You know, that's a really good question. I have, I would say that from what I can tell, and from what people have told me from different churches, that it's still coming

from the same core books, if you can believe it. And those are still, some of them are still bestsellers. But also there are these programs, right, like Passport to Purity, and there was and, you know, just all these different programs and some of those are still going on and i don't know exactly if they've updated their curriculum or not um so i have heard from a few people that their churches still do purity events i think it's definitely um less and less a thing that happens in churches and so there aren, I can't think of a, of a modern purity culture book that I've read. I'm sure they're being written. I mean, we know that there are some uber conservative camps, maybe even just very legalistic camps that are probably writing, you know, a lot of extra

biblical rules, but I haven't read those books. There's a good book that came out. The late, great David Pelson wrote, Making All Things New. And that was a really beautiful little book on spirituality that I would recommend to people. A question I often get is, if we can't read that, then what do we read? Yeah, yeah. And my response is very frustrating to people, but what I say is, listen, it's not all going to be found in one book other than the Bible. And one of the problems with purity culture is that we were all reading these books in isolation and taking in these messages in ways that were twisted. And so what is more essential is

conversation. And so in my book, I just have these jumping off questions. And, you know, my goal with my book was not to end the conversation, but just to start it. I could barely address some of the issues I brought up because it was just one book. No one should read my book thinking it's the end-all be-all source on purity culture. It's more of just a way to, almost a primer and a lot of my own opinions and you can disagree with them, but it's, it's supposed to start conversations. It's supposed to get you talking. And that's what I hear when I, the most encouraging feedback from talking back to purity culture has been these young college students saying that they've been talking to their

parents about it. I love that. They're like, you know, I went home on break and I talked to my mom about these messages and we had a great talk about what she was trying to say and what I heard. Or a lot of people say that it's helped their marriage because they were able to say, hey, this is why I'm so insecure about this, or this is why I assumed this about sex or, you know, and, and it started conversations within their marriage. And so, you know, that's what I, that's what I think a good book, a good book that's not the Bible should do is just get people talking in community because one author isn't going to have all the answers. Right, right, right. And I certainly don't. Zach Wagner, his book, Non-Toxic Masculinity is kind of, it would be, it would, it would for,

for guys, I think it could hold that place. It still is kind of more of a critique of the movement, which my, I don't necessarily need my 15 year old son to, you know, know all the ends. I just want something more constructive rather than, you know, deconstructive. Um, but that would, that would be close. I think, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Yeah. Um, I was just, I was just looking at, uh, I just looked up every man's battle to see the sales rank and it's, it is pretty low, 141,000 on Amazon. That's, I'm going to roughly say that's two or three copies a day being sold on Amazon, which is pretty not maybe five, maybe 10. Somebody can, that's really low. Like that's, that's not, you know, um, I'd be curious to go through and see how, but gosh, there's like 15 different versions of this book. There's

right. And it's like on this workbook on that. It's a whole empire almost. It absolutely is. And I don't know if they've updated it. Um, I know that, and it is one of the worst ones. I do need to say that in terms of dehumanizing women. Yeah. I think the goal was to help men fight lust and that's, that's a nice goal, but I don't recommend it at all. As far as maybe the end goal was good, but what it does, um, to accomplish the goal is not livable. I spoke at a conference with him years ago. I didn't know who he was. I said, oh, some Steve guys. I didn't know what he talked about. I remember it was like three or four talks and he was one of them. Maybe he's changed his opinion too.

I didn't even know enough to be... Yeah, they had me speak on same-sex sexuality. He was doing something, I guess, related to his book. I don't know. I do know that the silver ring thing i think has changed quite a bit i think i talked to i don't want to name names but it was you know people high up there and they immediately i remember talking to them their first words out of their mouth was kind of concerned over purity culture and how they're reframing things so i don't want to say definitively, maybe people are like, no, they still have tons of purity stuff. I don't, I don't really know, but I did.

I do know that they were, um, uh, they seem to be very aware of some of the unintentional damage. Um, and some of us, we can only learn in hindsight. Yeah. Um, and here's what we don't want. What we don't want is then to just not teach this generation what God says about sexuality. Like, we're so scared of making a mistake that we don't teach them about something that matters to them, something that they care about, they have questions about. So that's not the right response. We have to talk about it. And I think that we've got to talk about it as it comes up in scripture

and sermons. We've got to talk about it as it comes up in our small groups. And I say this in the book, but I think what would be ideal is that the teenagers aren't just talked to in a group of teenagers, but that a teenager could hear, say, a widow talk about how it's difficult to actually peer. I mean, my goodness, can you imagine? And then the teenage boy's like, whoa, a widow talk about how it's difficult to actually peer. I mean, my goodness, can you imagine? And then the teenage boy's like, whoa, so it's not just teenage boys? Or, you know, for someone to say that singleness is, you know, to talk about their singleness or to talk about their same-sex attraction and how all these different manifestations of sexuality, how do we submit them to Christ? Like we're in this together and

it, and it will be different for each of us, but I would love to see more of that in the church. And that would, um, that would require diverse small groups and Bible studies. Ah, so good. I mean, at the risk of self-promotion, my organization created a whole 12 week curriculum on Christian sexuality that is designed for youth groups, designed for parents, designed for mentors and designed, I mean, specifically for, for teenagers, 13 to 18. We began by talking about things like shame. Cause like, and we, we called, we consulted a lot of people that are kind of like you, people like you, that wasn't you, but people like you who have like learned a lot from bearded culture saying we want to maintain sexual integrity let's not do it like we did in the past

um and so yeah it was it was it was like i think an attempt you know so like we've included like other 12 weeks we have three weeks on lgbtq stuff you know um a lot of the speakers a lot of the people we had represented in and there were same-sex attracted but it's funny that you didn't you don't really know that until like week nine they They're like, Oh, and by the way, I'm gay, you know? Um, so, uh, yeah, but there's the shame piece. Like the number one piece of advice we got was if you don't address shame around sexuality, everything else is you're going to say is going to be Charlie Brown's teacher. You know, it's like, it's like, you're just so full of shame. You can't hear any kind

of do's and don'ts or good or bad or whatever. I mean, so we address that early, early on. That's huge because you cannot talk about sexuality when you're covered in shame. I mean, it feels so unsafe. Yeah. And so you can't, kids wouldn't even be able to have this conversation until, until shame is addressed. I'd like to see more about your curriculum. I think that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll fly and I'll, I'll shoot you a, shoot you a link. Um, it's yeah, it could be bad. I mean, I, yeah, it's again, we were learning every day and, um, I would love to turn it. Well, I'd love someone else to maybe turn it into a book, but maybe, maybe a video based curriculum is going to be better for youth anyway. Um, all right. One more thing before I let you go, uh, Rachel, this has been a great

conversation, by the way. Thank you. So I, this has been fun. Um, I've learned a lot, uh, Billy Graham rule. This is the one that I, I just, I don't know what to do with. Okay. So, um, you address it on chapter, um, six, I think five or six. Um, and it And it's often in critiques of purity culture. It's often, I would say, reduced to the Billy Graham rule. Don't be alone with the girl. And it's reduced to because this will lead to you guys having sex. And then the woman's just framed as just nothing but a walking sexual temptation. Therefore, don't be alone with this woman.

That definitely is part of it, but there's a lot of other facets to the Billy Graham rule that I'm like, well, there, there is some things here. And I, I, um, you know, I, I often for people that critique the Billy Graham rule and I'm not saying I'm, I'm for it or against it. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking throughout, is there anything here we need to maintain other things? We don't, what do we need to get rid of? What do we need to maintain? Like things we don't, what do we need to get rid of? What do we need to maintain? Like I would imagine Rachel, I'll put you on the spot.

If you had a female friend from out of town here for a couple of days, your best friend, right? Whoever that is. And I would imagine your husband would say, you know what? I'm going to stay home. I'm going to watch, is it Hilda? Hildy? I would watch Hildy. You guys go out, go have a nice steak dinner, you know what i'm gonna stay home i'm gonna watch is it hilda hildy i do what i would watch hildy

you guys go out go have a nice steak dinner you know crack a bottle of wine well you're baptist maybe it'd be something um you know it just goes like if it was a female friend i would imagine that would be no problem what if it's a male friend would your husband stay home so that you can go have a steak dinner nice bottle of wine with a male friend? Would your husband stay home so that you can go have a steak dinner, a nice bottle of wine with a male friend, whatever? Like, would there be any, would that at all be, would that be the exactly the same thing? And I'm not even thinking, well, you might jump into bed. I'm just saying like, is there, is there some kind of like, is there any line that would be drawn or would you just go out to dinner and movie with another guy?

Or if your husband's out of town with your daughter and a male friend and a female friend was in town, I would imagine she would stay the night in your house. You know, obviously not in the same bed. He says if it was a male friend, would it be like, oh, yeah, male, female wouldn't even matter. Like, yeah, I totally, you know, spend a night together. Separate rooms, obviously, you know, know but like is there any kind of boundary not because we're just going to jump into bed together but just like i don't know there is still a female male heterosexual let's just assume heterosexual dynamic that there's certain boundaries this is a genuine question if i'm totally out just tell tell me. I honestly mean that.

You are not at all. And I think that it is ridiculous to pretend that these scenarios don't exist. And to talk about male, female friendships in a vacuum, like we have to acknowledge that you have to say, would you as a husband want your wife, you know, like actually put it in the context. So

there have been times when I have felt completely comfortable, uh, many times. Well, my husband's a pastor, so we could start there. Um, I think, so I critique the Billy Graham rule in my book in terms of the way it perpetuates purity culture. But the other side of it is that the, the Billy Graham rule can also protect men and women in a way that's really kind and gracious and loving. So for instance, pastors, to make a woman feel safe, you shouldn't close the door

and have the lights dimmed in your office. That's weird. I had an experience, well, I guess I can't be specific. I had an experience where I had to meet with someone and a male and he, he did, he shut the door and the blinds were closed. And then he asked me what my greatest sin was. And I was very young. I was 18. And I, I felt a spiritual, like, I felt like I was being prideful to not answer the question, but I, there was like a bell going off in my head. This is not safe. So anyway,

so I said, uh, I, I, I struggled to trust in God. And then I tried to get out of there, you know, um, he was trying to get something juicy out of me. And it turns out he ended up getting fired from his position because he was actually going too far with his students. Anyway. Um, so, okay. In some ways the Billy Graham rule is a way of saying, I want to treat you as a sister in all purity. So I'm going to keep the door cracked open to show you that I'm a safe person.

Like, I'm not trying anything here. And so in that sense, like, Evan, my husband, he wants to make the women he meets with for, like, counseling situations feel safe. And so it's not that he's cracking the door because he just can't control himself. and so it's not that he's cracking the door because he just can't control himself um and he's not even just cracking the door just to protect his own reputation which you know reputation matters and it doesn't matter you know it's it's also to make that woman feel safe so there's that situation so real quick can i can i so i just don't understand what you're saying because that's the same action cracking the door open the blinds and in red in one light it could be like what you think i'm just a sexual temptation?

Red in another light, thank you for making me feel safe. Same action, though. It's just the intention can be interpreted very differently. Well, it's like if you hold the door open for a woman, some women will say thank you, and others will say, what, you think I can't open the door myself? Exactly. Which is why I don't open the door for anybody. Yeah. And that's on them. And so here's the thing. If a woman comes in, the pastor turns on the brightest lights and opens the blinds, you know, and she feels offended. Well,

she's making an assumption about why he's doing that. And I think that's also on her. So I know I'll get in trouble for saying that, but all that said, when it comes to marriage, I have every right as a wife to be jealous sometimes. And so if I feel like there is a particular relationship that my husband has that to me, there's just, again, a siren's going off in my head. Maybe I am judging that woman. And so maybe I need to deal with my heart and maybe my jealousy is sinful. I think there are other times when I'm seeing something that could potentially be a situation and it's okay for me to say, I'm not comfortable with this. And that's really a

hypothetical because my husband, he doesn't have a bunch of private meetings with women. And again, that's not because he thinks they're dangerous. It's just that in the church setting, there's a lot of bright public places to meet. And I think that's a lot safer for everyone. And when I say safe, again, I don't mean safe from our own impulses, although I guess that could be part of it. But safe in the sense that you're making the people that you're around feel protected. That's good. Yeah. It's just such a hard. Yeah. I'm just, I'm not. That's why. Yeah. It's just such a hard,

yeah. I just, I, I'm not, that's why it's hard, right? Because ideally like in heaven, we're all going to be friends and there's not going to be any temptation,

but we can't say that there's never sexual temptation between men and women or women and women or men and men like there, there can be. And so it has to, the conversation has to acknowledge both the fact that we are image bearers and we have the goodness of god but also we have adam's sin we we have to talk about both or else we're gonna fall too far on one side or the other so it's challenging yeah and for me it's it's not it's whatever residue of a Billy Graham rule. I don't even know if I

want to use that term, which just has too much baggage and triggering, you know, but like whatever in that, whatever that I say, ah, there might be some wisdom here. It honestly has nothing to do of like, oh, this is going to lead to sexual, it's there's just other fact or even like, what about a scenario? Genuine question here? What if I know there's another woman who has maybe a, just a really poor marriage, you know, like, is there's married to a dud, just really just, it is, you know? And I sense that she might be, and this is totally fictitious. So if anybody's reading in this, you know, they're like, is he talking about me? This is totally, but this happens. Right. And I just sense that there's, there's just, just a little, it just seems to me, my, my intuition

says there's this unhealthy draw towards other men that she's around the workplace or whatever, you know? And then I just, you know, like, do I, is there any place for me to say, I don't know if I want to provide some kind of maybe male emotional bond here that might not be good for her, their marriage, whatever. Like, is that, is that, is that, is that, is that a, always an unhealthy thought? Why would I even think that? Or is that something that I should at least consider when I'm like, which in my case, heterosexual female, you know, should I be maybe a little more cautious?

And again, not that it's going to go to the bedroom, whatever, but just like, I might fill an emotional void that might not be healthy for me or her for me to fill. Is that a legit concern? I think that's wisdom. And I think anyone who says, oh, how dare he even bring that up is not living in the real world. And what you're not saying in

that scenario is that she's this Jezebel. That's not what you're saying. What you're saying is that she is unhappy and that you don't want to present a temptation to sin to someone who maybe would lean on you emotionally when they shouldn't, and that's not good for their marriage. I mean, it's acknowledging. I think it's being practical and it's being kind. I think there's a way to look at that scenario as you being a brother in all purity. What does it mean for us to treat each other as brothers and sisters in all purity? Sometimes it means you do meet with that person. You break the

Billy Graham rule. And sometimes it means you'd follow the Billy Graham rule. My husband brings up the scenario. What if he's driving and he sees a woman caught in the rain? Is he not going to give her a ride? He sees one of his congregants. She's struggling with her groceries or whatever. And is he going to say, I can't give you a ride because my wife's not in the car? No, he would say, I'm not going to follow this legalistic extra biblical rule. But the other side is, again, like I said, why shut the door to an office and close the blinds? That doesn't make anyone feel safe.

That's not necessary to flourishing in male-female friendship. So I think we have to take these scenarios case by case. I also think we have to pray for wisdom. And when the Holy Spirit is saying something's not right here, we should listen. I mean, women will tell you, we have a siren that goes off in our head when we're in a situation where we might be threatened sexually.

We just know, we know when someone is not safe. And it's a, I don't know how else to explain it other than I think sometimes it's the Holy Spirit telling us to get out of that situation or run. We should expect that the Holy Spirit will give us wisdom and we need to ask for it. If we commit the sin of treating someone like just a walking sex object and we dehumanize them, someone like just, you know, a walking sex object and we dehumanize them, we need to repent of that and change. But my goodness, you know, this is such a hard conversation. Yeah. I don't think we can make a Billy Graham rule or say that it's always right or wrong because every situation's different and the Holy Spirit's going to be telling us, and we're all different, right?

We all have different temptations. So if you're not, say you're not straight, say you struggle with same-sex attraction, you're not going to probably put yourself in some of the same situations as your straight friend, right? That's my favorite part of your book, by the way, that you said the whole purity messages just had no place for same sex attractive people. It just completely erased them. So Rachel, thank you so much for being on the podcast, Talking Back to Purity Culture, Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality. Absolutely excellent book. And thank you so much for, I mean, diving in, this isn't an easy conversation. As you said, you've taken, I'm sure a lot of hits and critiques and stuff, and you knew that going in, yet you still did it. So thank you for your faithfulness and your courage and stepping out,

Rachel. Likewise. Thanks for having me. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.