Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1127: A Zionist Jewish Rabbi's Perspective on the War in Israel-Palestine: Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Hanan Schlesinger is an Orthodox rabbi and teacher, and a passionate Zionist settler who has been profoundly transformed by his encounters with Palestinians and the Palestinian People beginning in late 2013. Originally hailing from New York, Rav Hanan immigrated to Israel on his own at the age of 20 and has lived in Alon Shvut, Gush Etzion, for almost 35 years. His family background is Reform, but already at the end of high school he began delving into observant Judaism. Following his B.A., he spent over 10 years in advanced Jewish study, primarily at the Har Etzion College of Jewish Studies and in the M.A. program of the Dept. of Jewish Philosophy at the Hebrew University. In early 2014, Ali Abu Awwad and an Israeli partner Shaul Judelman, together with Rav Hanan and other Israelis and Palestinians, founded Roots/Judur/Shorashim. Rav Hanan currently serves as its Director of International Relations. He also is the founder of the American Friends of Roots, a multi-faith organization dedicated to supporting the work of Roots/Shorashim/Judur. Rav Hanan frequently speaks in the USA together with one of his Palestinian partner about the amazing work that Roots/Shorashim/Judur is doing in Judea/Palestine. Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

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conference. Worship by Evan Wickham and Tanika Wyatt, and also Max Licato is going to be there. All the information is at theologyintheraw.com. Again, if you want to attend live in person, I would register sooner than later. We're also going to live stream the conference, so that option is there as well. Again, Exiles in Babylon 2024, April 18th through the 20th. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Ra. It's part of my ongoing desire to understand the current conflict in Israel-Palestine. I have on the show today, my very interesting guest, fascinating story. My guest today is Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger, who lives in the West Bank in the land of Israel, Palestine. He is one of the founders of ROOTS,

the Palestinian Israeli Grassroots Initiative for Understanding Nonviolence and Transformation. He currently serves as a director of international relations for that organization. Prior to that, he spent many years teaching Jewish studies in various seminaries, colleges, and frameworks in Jerusalem and beyond. Rav Hanan is a Jewish Zionist settler, and all of those terms are going to be very politically charged, and he does unpack what those mean. But he's got a really fascinating story, and I don't want to give away too much up front. So just I'm really excited for you to listen to this really fascinating, challenging, and intriguing conversation.

So please welcome to the show, for the first time, the one and only Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger. Thank you, Rav Hanan, for joining me in this really important conversation. Happy to be here. Yes. A friend of mine gave me your name. And so that was about a week ago. And I've been watching things online. And yeah, my knowledge of you goes back a week. So this is going to be really exciting for me. For our audience, can you just, yeah, who are you? What do you do? And then I would love for you to give your perspective on the recent conflict in Israel-Palestine. Okay. So first of all, thanks for having me on the podcast.

My name is, everyone's heard, is Hanan Schlesinger. I'm a rabbi. I'm 66 years old. My brief biography is that I was born in the U.S. I was born in New York to an American Jewish family. We were deeply connected to the Jewish people, but not religious, not observant, connected a little bit to a synagogue, not a lot. connected a little bit to a synagogue, not a lot. I went to a regular public school,

went to Hebrew school in the afternoons, learned a little bit about Judaism, had a bar mitzvah. When I was in high school, I joined a Zionist youth group called Young Judea. I joined it for social reasons, not for anything deep, but I got deeply involved and I became a Zionist in my last two or three years of high school. I went to Israel during the summer of high school. After high school, I went for a year to Israel. And by the age of 20, I made Aliyah, which means I left the U.S. and I ascended to the land. I came home and I've been living. I lived the first three years when I made Aliyah, when I came to Israel, age of 20, 23. I lived in Jerusalem. And then about the age of 23 or 24, I moved to Alon Shfut.

Alon Shfut is a settlement or a town in what's called the West Bank or Judean Samaria or occupied territory territory, or greater Israel, or Palestine, disputed territory. We can talk later, perhaps, of all those different labels. I believe there's some truth in all of them, but that's getting ahead of ourselves. I came to Alon Shfuth before I was married to learn here in the yeshiva, in the Academy of Judaism, to learn how to be a better Jew. I spent about 10 years in the yeshiva. It's called Yeshivat Har Etzion, Atomic Academy. I got rabbinic ordination. I got married. And my wife and later my kids and we've been living in this area in Alon Shfut. What is it? About over 40

years. How far are you from Jerusalem, just so people can get an idea? I think it's about 11 kilometers, which is like seven miles, something like that. Half hour drive. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I lived outside. Let's see. As you're leaving Jerusalem on your way to Tel Aviv, what highway is that? Highway 1? Yeah, 1 connects Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. So about 15 minutes toward Tel Aviv, a little Moshav.

I lived there for about four months in 1999. There used to be... I don't think it's there anymore. It was called the Elvis Inn. It was a little restaurant stop that I don't think is there anymore. No idea. I have no idea. So yeah, I have a general idea of where you live.

I'll just give a little bit more background, just two or three. Please go. Yes. I've been a rabbi my whole life. After those 10 years in the Shiva, in the Academy of Judaism, I've been teaching in different frameworks of Jewish studies for adults called yeshivot or seminaries, some of them catering to men, some to women, teaching Judaism my whole life. In Israel, most rabbis don't have congregations. They're teachers in some framework or another. And then about 10 years ago, my life changed within a few minutes when I met Palestinians for the first time.

We'll talk about that later, perhaps, or now, whenever you want. Okay, yeah, I definitely want to hear about that. Before we do, you use the term Zionist. And I think, yeah, this is a term that a lot of people have heard of. I'm not sure people understand it fully. Can you explain the difference between being an Israeli Jew and a Zionist? are not merely members of a religion. Judaism is not primarily a faith category. We Jews understand ourselves, and it's been this way for 3,000 years, we're part of a nation, also part of a people, we can say. Going back 3,000 years ago and a little bit more, 3,000 years ago, there was a Jewish state, a Jewish kingdom in the land between the Jordan

River and the Mediterranean Sea, actually two of them. At one point, they even were fighting with each other at war with each other. We Jews today are the descendants of the original Israelites who left Egypt. The traditional story came into land, conquered the land, created the Jewish kingdom. It's called the First Temple. Like I said earlier, that divided into two kingdoms. Later Jews were exiled in about 586 before the Common Era. After 70 years of exile in Babylonia, they came home. They came back to a land that had been their homeland before that.

We had a small Jewish common welfare under the auspices of the Persians for a few hundred years. Later we gained independence about 160 years before the common era gained independence for about a hundred years we were then under the auspices of Rome until about 40 years before the common era and then on the year 70 we after have been a province of Rome we revolted against the Romans were defeated were sent into exile there was a another revolt again sent into exile. There was another revolt, again sent into exile. Jewish people were decimated. And since about the year 135 of the Common Era, the majority of the Jewish people have been in exile,

not in the land of Israel, not in the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. And during all these 2,000 years, when we've been in the Middle East, we've been in Northern Africa, we've been in Europe. Lately, we came to a place called America, and even Australia. During all these years, the Jewish people have seen themselves as a people. That's not where they belong. We're in limbo.

We're in exile. And literally, literally, literally, Jews have prayed three times a day. It's in our prayers. It's in the grace we say after meals. It's about coming home, that the land of Israel should ingather the exiles. Jerusalem will be rebuilt. We have a vision of coming home. So that the religious part of Judaism is certainly a major part of it, but it's not the whole thing.

When a Jew, to be a Jew doesn't mean to have certain beliefs. It means primarily to be born into this people or to be married into this people, to be converted into this people. It's an extended family. So now all that is background to Zionism. For a good part of the 2,000 years of exile, the Jewish people developed an understanding that we won't go home until the big, big, big event that we call the Messianic era. We're waiting for a cataclysmic

change in the laws of nature, the laws of history, when God will bring us back to the land. Together with that, there were lots of Jews who, on their own, made Aliyah, us back to the land. Together with that, there were lots of Jews who on their own made Aliyah, came back to the land, but they saw that as an individual act, not necessarily as part of the big return that will take place someday, the return that was promised by the prophets, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. In the 19th century, the Jewish people began to develop the idea that we don't have to wait for God to reach his hand out of heaven and bring us back home. If we're promised to go home, let's do it. Let's pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and return home. That's what's called Zionism. In other words, Zionism is not something new. Zionism is something old new.

It's the old idea that the Jews belong in our homeland with a state there with sovereignty. This all goes back again 2,000, 3,000 years. What's new about Zionism is we don't have to wait for God to do it. We can do it ourselves. And of course, part of the reason why Jews began to believe that we can do it ourselves, don't have to wait for God, is the secularization of the 19th century and also the political movements of the 19th century, which other nations that had been exiled from the land were also looking to come home. New nations, new states were being created. So Zionism is both a product of the 19th century, but it's also based on the Jewish self-understanding of many, many, many, many years in the past. That's an incredibly clear and concise summary that is, yeah, probably the best I've heard. Thank you for that. I'm curious because I think as I've been reading and learning and trying to get my mind around everything that's going on, there's a bit of debate about who was living in the land,

let's just say, in the 1800s. Some say it was basically all Arabs, Palestinians. Others say, no, it was Jews. It's probably a both and. Were there Jewish people in the land in the 1800s? Were they Zionists or were they? We know that by approximately the year 1000 of the Common Era, in other words, a thousand years ago, there were very few Jews left in the land. Again, we were here until about 135 of the Common Era.

Then through Roman persecution and economic difficulties, Jews gradually left our homeland. And by the time we get to the year 1000, 1100, we know there are very few Jews. We have a story of a famous rabbi, the Ramban, Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, who came from Spain to the land on his own personal pilgrimage, his own aliyah, and he could not find a minyan. He could not find 10 Jews in Jerusalem. Then, after the expulsion from Spain,

when the Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492, hundreds of thousands of them, I hope I'm right, at least tens of thousands, I think it's hundreds of thousands, made their way to Turkey and some of them to the land of Israel. There was a big Jewish community of 10,000 in the city of Tsvat. I think in English we say Safet. Some of them in Jerusalem. And then in the 1700s and 1800s, more Jews from Eastern Europe were coming. Still only in the thousands, not more than that. When we get to the 19th century, the Jews are a minority in the land.

century, the Jews are a minority, a minority in the land. Most of the people living here are the indigenous people who were here for a hundred years, five hundred years, a thousand years. By the way, many of the indigenous people were probably Jews who lost their Judaism and converted to Islam or to Christianity, but that really doesn't matter to me. They didn't any longer have a Jewish identity. And like I said, the Jews were here as a minority in Sfat and in Jerusalem. And then the Zionist movement begins to return thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Jews. We're talking about 1860, 1870, 1880. 1880 okay and of course what happened is we have a collision course here because the jewish people feel they are coming home and the local people local arabs are home there could have been peace there could have been coexistence there could have been room for the two sides but what

happened is and again it makes sense it's not unexpected that you find the two sides. But what happened is, and again, it makes sense, it's not unexpected that you find the two sides on a collision course, because both of them feel their home, and they're two different identities. The Arabs, as I understand it, said, who are these Jews? They're coming from Europe, they don't belong here. And many of the Jewish settlers who are coming back, they are so, live inside their identities, their project of coming home, creating a Jewish state, rising from the ashes, they don't see the local indigenous Arabs. For example, the Jews buy land from absentee Arab landlords who live in Damascus, and the local Palestinian sharecroppers or tenant farmers lose their land.

The Jews bought it with their own money. They don't see themselves as causing people to lose their land, but the local people have been tenant farmers for generations and suddenly have no place to live. That's just a tiny example of the type of conflict that began to develop, especially with the beginning of the 20th century. Especially with the beginning of the 20th century. Well, in Europe, if I can ask a provocative question, I don't know how to say it. Who's correct? Do the Jews have a theological or political right to purchase that land? Or do Palestinians have a right to maintain the land since they've been living there for a long time? Or is that, I mean, that is kind of the crux of this whole thing, right? Here we get to perhaps the foundation of the way I live my life and the approach that I espouse, which is there are very often two truths.

And they may be lived by each of the sides that hold them as contradictory, but they're both true at the same time. To me, it's a no-brainer. It's obvious that the local people who had lived here for hundreds of years belong to the land. In no way can we say that they're foreigners or usurpers. And on the other hand, the Jews who are coming here are coming home. They know that they lived here 2,000 years ago and 2,500 years and 3,000 years ago. They're coming home to where they belong, to the place they've been hoping and yearning and praying and crying for for 2,000 years. And as far as I understand, they didn't force out Arabs. They didn't violently evict Arabs.

They bought tracts of land. But still, even while buying the land, and even while having a strong identity of connection to the land, a collision course was created here. There were efforts to avert violence in the Faisal-Weisman agreements right during the end of World War I. Unfortunately, mostly because of the British and the French, it didn't work out. The British and the French, the colonial powers had their own designs in the land, and that exacerbated the potential conflict between the British and the French, the colonial powers had their own designs in the land, and that exacerbated the potential conflict between the Jews and the Arabs. And we got to where we are

today. Yeah, I like how you're able to hold it in tension. I mean, in a perfect world, you could have had both truths exist side by side, but we have this problem called human sin, side by side, but we have this problem called human sin, which probably manifested on both sides. Maybe some people desiring peace and other people, maybe not. And can you take us from, let's say, Balfour to 1948? I mean, you kind of gave it just a real brief, but is that just a period of now colonial involvement, Western involvement, to an already volatile, a growing volatile kind of situation that just kind of erupts in 48? Would that be, I mean, maybe I just did it. Is that a basic understanding of that complicated time period? There's so much history here, and I'm not a historian. Let me see if I can say a few things

that might have some significance. Certainly there were Zionists who wanted the whole land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and even more. They wanted even Transjordan, some of them. And certainly the Arabs didn't see any place for these Jews who, they have no understanding why they're here. They're just taking our land. The conflict developed, as I said. The British got the mandate on Palestine, in other words, from the Jordanian to the Mediterranean Sea. We're already in 1920 now, approximately 21. The British at a certain point saw they have a problem because of this conflict between the two peoples there were different commissions and different committees trying to figure out what to do again and again the british

came to the conclusion that the land has to be divided basically create a jewish state and an arab state the jews and the arabs were very very unhappy with this at most of the stages between 1921 and 1948 because each side wanted the whole thing but as far as i understand uh the zionist leaders the jewish leaders pretty soon came to the conclusion that they're willing to settle for part of the land and of course they were happy to get whatever they can they were still the minority in the land they'd been been, again, hoping for a Jewish state for 2,000 years. Here, the British are willing to give it to us. Let's take what we can get. The Arabs, on the other hand, said, what are you talking about?

It's all ours. We're not giving these usurpers anything. They don't belong here. Let them go back to Europe. So the Arab side didn't accept the partition plans. And by the way, I am not here to blame them. That's not my job. I would have, have of course been happier had they accepted it but i can understand putting myself in their shoes why they thought that the partition plan was completely unfair because they they deserve the whole thing

they said it's been our land for hundreds of years and what happened is uh that the british seeing that the arabs didn't accept the partition felt they couldn't deal with this problem. It was just getting bloodier and bloodier. Now in 1946, 47, then 48, they went to the newly formed United Nations and said, take it off my plate. take it off my plate. The United Nations agreed to the end of their British mandate, and the United Nations voted on petition, and the British were supposed to leave, and the petition was supposed to be put into effect, I think it was May 12th of 1948. The British leave, the Jews declare their state in the area they were allotted by the UN plan and of course the Arabs say over our dead bodies no way and the war erupted now there were skirmishes already six months before that seven months before that since the UN petition plan was voted on in November 1947 so from November 1947 till May 1948, there were skirmishes, but then the British left. The Jews took out their state. Arab armies invaded to crush the Jews and throw them into the sea.

And you know what? In the war that we Jews call the War of Independence, 1% of the Jews were killed. Can you imagine 1% of our population were 600,000 of that 6,000 were killed men, women, and children, 1% of the population. And many of those, not the majority, many were Holocaust survivors. We literally, literally, literally fought for survival. And we came out of it with a state that by the way,

was much larger than the boundaries that the UN had allotted to us. That was the Armistice Agreement of 1947. And those are the borders of Israel until today. The Armistice Agreement of 1949. Did Palestinians feel like they were in the majority and they were getting a minority of the land or that it wasn't a balanced partition? Or was it simply they didn't want to give any of the land up? I'm sure there's probably various perspectives on that. Yeah, that's really not fair of me to answer it because I'm a partisan. So why don't you?

Okay, fair enough, fair enough. I've had, yeah, well, Daniel Benora has shared his Palestinian perspective. So that's why I'm trying to get various perspectives alongside that. So that's really helpful. I do want to, I mean, you made a really provocative statement about how you had your perspective challenged 10 years ago. Can you summarize prior to 10 years ago what your perspective was, and then we can get to what was challenged in your perspective. Yeah. I lived like Morelis without any knowledge of the other side. I lived the identity of my people. And just imagine how powerful it is to be home in the Jewish state after 2,000 years of exile. There's a great sense of historical fulfillment here of realizing the dreams that my great, great, great, great grandfather prayed about and dreamed about, but couldn't realize dreams of literally, again, 2,000 years. And here I am living that. That's really, really powerful. So I lived the

Zionist dream. I settled the land. I raised a family. And all this time, I'm aware, like other Israelis, that the Palestinians, the Arabs, are attacking us. It doesn't matter if it's the first Intifada, the second Intifada, the Palestinian uprising, if it's the war in 1948, the war in 1967, the war in 1973, and then the different wars in which Hezbollah from the north in Lebanon attacked us. And from the Jewish perspective, we don't understand why they're doing this. It looks like they're just the next version of the Holocaust, which is the next version of the Spanish Inquisition, which is the next version of the Spanish Inquisition, which is the next version of the Crusade, which is next, etc., etc., etc. We just see the non-Jews,

right, what we call the Goyim, attacking us. We don't understand why. Because we develop for ourselves this beautiful but very insular identity in which we only see ourselves or our own side. Of course, all nations around the world are like that. It's too bad. Everybody does this, yes. So I had no idea why. And my sense was, like many Jews, especially religious Jews, that it must be part of Jewish identity, part of Jewish destiny, that anti-Semitism is built into the fabric of the universe, and there's nothing we can do but hold tight, fight back, develop our army, our strength,

and show them with force that we're not going anywhere because we have no other place to go. I had never really had a conversation with a Palestinian two years ago until 10 years ago. I didn't read any Palestinian books. I didn't know Arabic. The other side was just a big question mark. And then 10 years ago, on the last Wednesday Last Wednesday of January 2014, I found myself invited to an event of local Israelis to meet local Palestinians. And it changed my life literally within a few minutes. I'm coming from a place in which I don't know anything about them. I've never met them. I'm afraid and I'm fearful. My wife is afraid. They really don't have a human

face. And I meet Palestinians and I am just undone by the fact that I can talk to them, that they have a story, that they're human beings. It was extremely challenging, extremely confusing, extremely unsettling. I'll just tell you one short story of many. I meet a young man, 17 years old, Palestinian, of course, and he's wearing a windbreaker. And on the jacket are written three words in English, Seeds of Peace,, seeds of peace. Seeds of peace.

So I look at the jacket as we're shaking hands and introducing ourselves. It has the word peace on it. But he's a Palestinian. How? Why would he wear a jacket with the word peace? They don't know anything about peace. And it really confused me. And I said to him jokingly, Yaz that was his name yazin what's this seeds of peace thing that's written on your jacket and i half expected him

to say i don't know someone gave me the jacket but that's not what he said he said that seeds of peace is the name of a summer camp in maine usa that takes israeli kids and palestinian kids out of the conflict zone for a summer of recreation and reconciliation. So he spent the past summer in the camp, and he met Israeli kids there. They're now friends on Facebook. He told me he was so affected by meeting the enemy and discovering a human being that now he'd like to spend some of his life building bridges of peace between our two peoples. And I remember listening to him and not knowing if I can believe what he's saying, because it contradicted everything that I knew. Palestinian goes to summer camp?

How could that be? It's just impossible. He went to a summer camp that talks about peace. He met Israeli kids and their friends. How could that be? And he deeply, deeply unsettled me. I met his father. I met his mother. I met other people that day. I learned that the Palestinians are afraid of us. What are they afraid of? We're afraid of them. And it turns out they're afraid of us. I had no idea why. And it turns out they're afraid of us.

I had no idea why. And then I heard about Palestinians have been in Israeli jail for fighting for their own liberation. I heard a Palestinian talk about 1948 as the Nakba, the tragedy. And I had no idea what he was talking about. What do you mean tragedy? 1948 was the greatest day in Jewish history for the past 2,000 years. We gained our independence. And he calls it a tragedy.

He said his people was defeated. His people were dislocated. Their culture was uprooted. 600, 700,000 became refugees. And I had no idea what he's talking about. No idea. I went home that day angry and confused and unsettled and challenged. I literally remember for days pacing back and forth in my study and feeling nauseous from hearing these terrible, strange things that Ali and Jamal and Yazan said. I felt this collision inside me of, what is it? Could it be true?

Would it contradict everything I know? And I went back after a week, I think, to the same place where I first met those Palestinians. And a conversation began. We were three Israelis and three Palestinians, and five and five, then 10 and 10, 20 and 20. And for weeks that became months that became years, we talked. What we did is tell stories and listen to stories. The Palestinians told us the stories of who they are. And we told them, we Jewish Israelis, the stories of who we are. And it was close to impossible to listen because they tell history from the completely wrong side. And from their perspective, we tell history completely the opposite of what's true. And you're listening to things that sound terrible and wrong and misinformed.

You want to get up and scream. You want to run away. But somehow we just listened. We didn't scream. We didn't run away, usually. And when you listen and listen more, you feel like a traitor for listening. How can you let that go by? You have to object. You have to tell them they're mistaken. You listen and you listen and you begin to realize that you have no idea who they are. And they have no idea who you are. And we began to see that if we really listen, then they'll listen when we speak. So you listen and you listen and your stomach is ch and your mind is racing, and your heart is pounding. And eventually we came to the conclusion that we have to find a way to fit two truths into one heart.

What they say about themselves must be true because they all are saying it. I met five and 10 and 20 and 100 Palestinians. They all have the same story. That's what they really believe. And the Palestinians met 10 and 20 and 30 and 50 and 100 Israelis. They all tell the same story. And it turns out there are two competing truths here and neither of them is wrong. Neither of them is wrong. We have to fit two truths into one heart. I can't describe how difficult it is. Most Palestinians believe that the Jews are a religion. They say it's a great religion. The Quran respects Judaism, but it's a faith. It's not a people, not a nation. You don't need land, so go back to Russia you came from. Why did you come to take our land?

And the Israelis look at the Palestinians and say, Palestinian? No, there's no such thing. You're just Arabs. Never was a Palestinian state. There's no such identity. It's fabricated. So go back to Saudi Arabia where you came from. But you listen and you listen, and the Palestinians learn the Jews really believe there are people. That's their identity. That's a fact of sociology, fact of history. And the Israelis look at the Palestinians and listen and listen and listen. The Palestinians, we Jews begin to realize, really think there are people. They are a people by dint of having that identity and having that history. And this really, really knocks the wind out of you. The people just like you,

it pulls the carpet out from your identity. You know why? Because our identities in this land are identities of exclusivity. That I'm right and you're wrong. And if you would be right, then I would be wrong. So you better be wrong. And we spend all our energy proving the other side is wrong. But then you realize that they would be right, then I would be wrong. So you better be wrong. And we spend all our energy proving the other side is wrong.

But then you realize that they can be right without me being wrong. You don't have to be wrong for me to be right. There really is such a thing as the Palestinian people. And there really is such a thing as the Jewish people. And the Palestinian people really do belong to land Palestine. And the Jewish people really do belong to land of Israel. And you know what? The land of Palestine and the land of Israel have the exact same borders. That's history. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Yes, that's Palestine. I don't have to be afraid of that. As long as the Palestinians who say that

Palestinians from the river to the sea also admit that Israel is from the sea to the river. And Israelis, Jews, who know that historically Israel is from the river to the sea have to admit that Palestine is also from the river to the sea. This is excruciatingly difficult, but it's actually simple. This episode is sponsored by Athletic Greens, which is now called AG1. AG1 is a comprehensive nutrition blast to the body. One scoop of AG1 saturates your system with 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients. It supports your immune system, aids in digestion, and supports your overall gut health, which is incredibly important for your overall health for your body.

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Check it out. Nothing about this sounds simple. How is it simple in your view? So it's simple intellectually. You look at history, it's true. It's true. It's something true. It's a fact of history that the Jewish people have had a claim on this land for 3,000 years. We lived here for 1,000 years until we're exiled in the year of the Common Era, or 135 of the Common Era for the second time. And we've been praying for this land and been connected to it for 2,000 years of exile.

And the Palestinians are also connected to this land in a different way, but just so legitimately. It's simple that this plant has two identities. The land has two identities. On the emotional level and on the practical level of how do you live together, it's excruciatingly difficult. Of course, we'd want it to be just ours and they would want it to be just theirs. It would make things much simpler, right? England belongs to the English and France belongs to the French and Germany to the Germans. But what can we do?

It's a historical fact that this land between the river and the sea has two peoples that belong to it. So as I said earlier, we have to give up not on our identities, but on the exclusivity of our identities. I maintain my strong self-understanding as a Jew, a Zionist, deeply connected to the land and Israeli, but that cannot be exclusive. In other words, I have to make room for the fact that there are Palestinians who are a member of a people that belong to the same land as well.

That's really hard. That, I understand what you mean by simple. It, yeah, on paper, it makes a lot of sense. I can imagine that this message is not easy for people to embrace. You've given many talks with fellow Palestinian friends of yours who are giving their version of the story. You're giving your version, and you're both working at understanding each other's perspective. Can you tell us about how you got into that work and what the fruit has been from these conversations you've been having? When I first met some of my Palestinian neighbors

in January of 2014, 10 years ago, and we began the discussions that I just talked about, we realized that we were creating a new type of identity, that we're able to maintain our own national identities and at the same time embrace the identity of the other side. That's new. That's an innovation. And we created a a movement initiative called roots in hebrew shorashim in arabic judor the israeli palestinian grassroots initiative for understanding

non-violence and transformation a root is everything i just talked about. And again, the two perspectives, the two truths. We began to talk to other Israelis and other Palestinians who weren't part of the core group. And we almost always talked as a pair, an Israeli and a Palestinian coming to talk to Israelis, coming to talk in a house meeting, in a high school, in a university, in a gap year program, presenting the story. And then we began to hear that this interest in the U.S. of hearing our stories. We started doing U.S. speaking tours always, an Israeli and a Palestinian. I've been in more than, I guess, 14 U.S. speaking tours with one of my Palestinian partners, being in the States for three weeks, three and a half weeks, speaking in a different synagogue or church or mosque university every day, sometimes two or three times a day. So the message has gotten out there. It's still very, very, very difficult, of course.

I would imagine. What kind of responses have you gotten, all the from like very positive responses to very negative responses? Do you have some stories you can tell as you give these talks? So the work of Roots is focused locally. growing cadre of local Israelis and local Palestinians who can accept the other side, who can recognize the other side, who can cherish and embrace and empathize with the other side. The work we do in the U.S. is peripheral. It's to raise consciousness and especially raise money. But here's the paradox. It's much, much easier for people to accept our message in America than in our home communities here in Israel-Palestine.

But it's clear why. Because here, local people, we have everything invested in our exclusive identities. We feel attacked by the other side. Both sides do. And to give up on that exclusivism, to admit the other side has some legitimacy and some connection to the land, it feels, as I said earlier, traitorous to many, many people. Of course, we believe it's the only way forward. So to get new followers, Israelis and Palestinians, here in the leading Holy Land is difficult. leading Holy Land is difficult. We think that there are thousands who've been part of our activities. I forgot to say that we created the only joint Israeli-Palestinian community center

in the whole West Bank. Remember I said earlier that I live in the West Bank that has many different names. So we focus our work in the West Bank where the heart of the problem is. That's where you have the Israelis who are most deeply wedded to their historical identities and who see the other side as completely illegitimate. And that's where you have the Palestinians who are most wedded to their historical identities, their religious, historical, national identities. So we're bringing the two poles together, the two extremes. We've created, like I said, the only Israeli Palestinian community that's on the whole West Bank.

It's called the Dignity Center with activities there, photography workshops and music workshops and interfaith dialogue and religious celebrations and a women's group and a little kids group and a summer camp, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's all about two things. First humanizing the other, which is difficult but not impossible. But that's not the end of it. After you discover the other side is not a monster, it's a human being, then you have to discover that this human being is the bearer of unique national identity that contradicts yours. So we always try to discover human being, but then go beyond that. It's not just about talking,

but what we have in common. It's about talking about our identities, what divides us and coming to cherish the other in the fullness of his particular list or her particular list identity. So again, that's really hard. And when we talk about an America, uh, by and large, people love us. Of course, we're only invited by the communities that are willing to listen. But once we get there, in 95% of the cases, people love us. I would imagine one of the commonalities you can find is a love for the land. I mean, by definition, that is a source of attention. But if you frame it a different way, you can go out on a hillside, look around and join arms and saying, this is a beautiful, holy land in the full sense of the term. I couldn't have said that better.

Can you, okay, so you use the term settler and then you gave a bunch of other names for that. Can you explain for people that don't know what that means and the political sensitivity surrounding the idea of being a settler. Can you explain that to us and maybe what other people would call a settler? For the Israelis who live... Actually, why don't I go back with a little bit of history? So I talked earlier about the fact that the UN partition plan in 1947 envisioned a Jewish and Arab state. And I talked about the fact that after the Arab attack in 1947-48 going to 1949, Israel was created and survived the boundaries of the Jewish state as a result of the war, the Amistis Agreement after the war. Those boundaries are called the Green Line. Israel is, I think, 78% of the land from the river to the sea,

and the land that was not Israel was 22% of the land. That 22% in 1949 did not become a Palestinian state. It was rather annexed by Jordan. In 1967, in the war of 1967, the Six-Day War, Israel conquered that. And since then, since 1967, Israel is ruling over the West Bank, that conquered area, without annexing it. Military occupation of the land. Right after the war in 1967, some Israelis asked the Israeli government to settle in the West Bank. And those who first came and asked the Israeli government to settle in the West Bank were the children who had been born in Israeli kibbutzim, Israeli towns in that area before 1948.

Okay. There were Jews living in that area before 1948. Not a lot, but they were. And their parents were massacred in 1948. So the kids were one years old, I think six years old in 1948. In 1967, they were like 20 years old, 21, 22. They asked the Israeli government to come home to the same place where they had been born before 1948. The Israeli government granted that wish.

And Kibbutz Kfar Etzion was created. And then right next to it was the settlement of Alonput where I live. Then right next to it was the settlement of Alonfut, where I live. So now, since 1967, hundreds of thousands of other Israelis have settled in the West Bank. So what is this word settler? So from the perspective of many settlers, the word settler is a word with very, very positive connotations. It means that we are pioneers. is a word with very, very positive connotations. It means that we are pioneers. We're going into areas of the land of Israel,

the historical land of Israel, with outside of the borders of the state of Israel, borders that I discussed, there are mystic line, the green line, a place where it's hard to live. There may not be telephones, may not be electricity, may not be running water. We're going to settle the land and to use the classical terminology to redeem the land for Jewish existence. On the other hand, for many people around the world, the term settler is a very, very negative term because for them settler means colonialist.

It means people moving to land that's not part of the sovereign state that they're citizens of and usurping it from the local inhabitants. And you know what? I see truth in both understandings. I really think they're both true. When I first settled in Alon Shfut, in the West Bank, I didn't see any Palestinians. I wasn't trained to see them. They didn't exist for me. I wasn't a colonialist. I was simply redeeming the land of Israel. I was exercising my historical connection to the land. It was powerful it was

beautiful it was uh it's a pioneering spirit building building the jewish uh identity and land after 2 000 years of exile really really with great dedication and love but since i met palestinians 10 years ago i began to realize that my same acts that were done out of love and dedication and patriotism and connection to my people, those same acts at the very same time that they were good and positive and loving and lovely, they were also perpetrating evil. Let me not say evil. We're perpetrating bad to the local Palestinians. me not say evil we're perpetrating bad to the local palestinians because although we built our settlements only on purchased land i later learned that not a line was purchased some was taken over we weren't told that but i later later learned that and i learned that even the land that wasn't taken over land that we bought but but the army created safe zones around

the settlements to protect us, but that involved encroaching on Palestinian rights. And during all this time from 1967, since Israel conquered the West Bank in the 1967 war, the Palestinians are living under occupation, which means citizens of no country with no human rights. So I didn't see them. I didn't mean to do any damage to them. But it turns out that, yes, my presence here in the West Bank as a settler is very, very positive and very, very negative at the same time. So you're able to live as a Jewish settler in the West Bank without having to interact with Palestinians? Like, is it that closed off in a sense?

Because you said up until 10 years ago, you didn't know any Palestinians. So you were living in your own Jewish enclave without interacting with them. Exactly. Wow, okay. Exactly. The education system, first thing, at the beginning, we speak is really some Palestinian different languages different religions different cultures we live in different places different towns cities different educational systems different health systems different transportation systems for

most Israelis there's no interaction now let me be more careful and say that from 1967 until 1987 when the first Palestinian uprising began there was contact it was a little bit Palestinian women and children, I remember, used to come into our settlement to go to the supermarket or even use the bank or go to the post office. And there were lots of Palestinian people working in Israeli homes as maids and as babysitters and, of course, as gardeners and construction workers. and of course as gardeners and construction workers. And we Jews used to buy fruits and vegetables in Palestinian cities. And many Jews, including me, thought everything was fine. We lived separately, we had some contact.

Economically things were good. We Jews, including me, did not see that Palestinians were living as second-class citizens without rights. We just didn't see it. The Palestinians began to revolt against the situation in 1987, the first-class uprising in Intifada. And one of the results of the Intifada was the separation of the societies. So the little contact there was began to disappear. And that was even exacerbated as the years go by. Today, there's almost no contact. Almost no contact.

If there was contact, would it be scary, possibly violent, or just kind of look the other way, acknowledge each other? I mean, or is there just ongoing tensions when there is contact? All of that. Some people are less scared. Some people are less scared. Some people are more scared. And I want to point out that the fear becomes part of your identity,

both for Israelis and Palestinians, such that you're not a normal Israeli in the past eight or nine years if you're not afraid of Palestinians. You don't know what's going on you've lost a marble i uh would walk from my home to our dignity center the community center which is about a less than a mile through palestinian fields and orchards a lot of people think i'm crazy for walking that You're going to get yourself killed. And you've never had an issue?

I've never had an issue. Correct. They would say the same. Palestinians would probably say the same thing, that if a Palestinian walked through a Jewish village, you should be scared to death to do that. Yeah. If you walked in the vicinity of an Israeli village,

you can't walk in. It's illegal, according to Israeli military law, for a Palestinian to enter an Israeli area or an Israeli to enter a Palestinian area. The only time that it's allowed for Palestinians to enter Israeli areas is if they're menial workers with a work permit under armed guard. In what way would you say Palestinians are second-class citizens in the West Bank? Is this a formal arrangement or more of an informal treatment? Well, second-class citizens in in the west bank is this a formal arrangement or more of an informal well second-class citizen actually when i said that i was being charitable it's worse than that they're not citizens palestinians live under israeli military law they have no legal rights absolutely no legal rights uh now since the oslo accords we're getting

into history and politics here since the oslo accords there we're getting into history and politics here. Since the Oslo Accords, there's what's called the Palestinian Authority, which is like a local government that rules, that partially rules some aspects of Palestinian life. But the Palestinian Authority itself is under the authority of the Israeli military government. Palestinians have no freedom of movement, no possibility of building, no building rights. No building rights. So a Palestinian living in the West Bank has no building rights? Okay, so it'll take me a few minutes to explain. So the Oslo Accords, I think we're talking about 1993, if I'm not mistaken. The Oslo Accords divided the West Bank into three areas to be uh simplistic i'll

say two areas areas a and b in the one hand and area c on the other hand areas a and b are where most of the palestinians live but it's only 30 percent of the west bank 70 percent of the West Bank. 70% of the West Bank is Area C, and that's the open areas where not a lot of Palestinians live, perhaps 70,000, and that's where all the Israeli settlements are concentrated. Areas A and B are under the Palestinian Authority, which again is also itself is under the Israeli military, but at least they have their own local government, whereas Area C is under direct Israeli military control. So in Area C, that's under Israeli military control, Palestinians cannot build anything, period. It's complicated. I remember watching a video online explaining A, B, and C, and that's exactly what they were saying. Let me add that in Area C, Israelis can build.

You have to get a building permit. It might be a complicated process. But in the end, if you submit the plans and pay the fee, you'll get your building permit. But Palestinians in Area C, in point of fact, cannot build anything. Now, of course, the law is, of course, they can build as long as they get a building permit. But 99% of Palestinian building permit applications are rejected. That's a fact. 99%. life in this land, in the West Bank, is at the expense of the Palestinians. And for me, that's not right. That's not fair. I believe that I belong to this land, and I should have a right to settle here and build here. But the Palestinians also belong

to this land, and they also should have a right to settle and build here. And I think that is wrong and immoral for me to have rights that they don't have. I would love to go back just three weeks ago, October 7th, with the Hamas invasion and Israel's response. How are you thinking through this? And I know it's a broad question, but where's your heart right now? Saturday morning, October 7th, so we Israelis learned hours later, Israel was attacked by 2,500 Hamas militants slash terrorists. We were surprised. We were overwhelmed. They committed a massacre of men, women, and children. They committed a massacre of men, women, and children.

People were beheaded. People were burned alive. It was an atrocity. 1,400 Israelis were killed. About 240 were taken into captivity, taken hostage. From the point of view of Israel, this is the greatest catastrophe since the Holocaust. And the Israeli sense is that this is an existential threat, that Hamas in Gaza saw what they could do. If we don't defend ourselves, they'll do it again. If we don't defend ourselves, if we show weakness, their allies, Hezbollah and Lebanon will attack and do the same thing. Iran will attack us. Iran

has always been saying they want to throw the Jews into the sea. From the point of view of the vast majority of Israelis, including the government, this is our moment of truth. Either we eradicate Hamas or they eradicate us. So the Israeli Reserve Army was mobilized, the biggest mobilization ever in the shortest amount of time. Over 360,000 Israeli young men, doctors and lawyers, and people from all walks of life are now in uniform on the borders, in the northern border and the border of Gaza, defending us. Israel has been attacking Hamas in Gaza from the air and now in the past two days on land, trying to eradicate Hamas, the military and political leaders who instigated and who perpetrated this massacre in order to ensure

safety for the people of the Jewish state. And by the way, 20% of our state are Arabs, and many of them were slaughtered also on the 7th of October, and many of them in captivity. So it's the Jewish state, the state of Israel, with its Jewish, Christian, and Muslim citizens against Hamas, who we see as bloodthirsty terrorists. Their charter says, the terrorist charter of Hamas says that there'll be no peace until Israel is eradicated. Of course, on the other hand, I know as a peace activist and someone who's deeply connected to Palestinians, I know as a peace activist and someone who's deeply connected to Palestinians that eradicating Hamas is not the full answer. Because even without Hamas, there's still the occupation.

There's still the question of Palestinian dignity, Palestinian sovereignty, Palestinian citizenship. If Israel is not willing, this is my opinion, to give Palestinians some of what they need, want, and deserve, again, citizenship, sovereignty, dignity, then eradicating Hamas will not solve the problem. The problem is that there are Palestinian legitimate, I should say it differently, some of the problem is that there are Palestinian legitimate, I should say itances, part of the problem is Palestinian anti-Semitism and Palestinian, what you saw in Hamas massacre. Now, some will say that's a product of Israeli oppression. Others will say Israeli oppression is a security response to the Palestinian anti-Semitism. I'm not going to go into that. It's complicated. But in the end of the day, without a comprehensive, just peace settlement, the military solution is not a solution. Rob, I know you have another talk to get to. I can't thank you enough for giving us your time

and your passion and your energy and the work you do must be exhilarating and exhausting. The work you do must be exhilarating and exhausting. So thank you. You've given us a model of what it is to have a charitable, curious dialogue across divides. And so thank you for that. And maybe one day we would cross paths in person. Yeah, I'd love that. Let me just give you the Roots website.

Yes, please do. To learn more about our work. Friendsofroots.net. Friendsofroots.net. Friendsofroots.net. I will put that in the show notes right now. Thank you again, Rav Hanan, and many blessings on your next talk and your ongoing work in ministry. Thank you very, very much. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.