Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1138: A Raw Conversation with a Legalistic Gay Christian: Colton Beach

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Colton Beach is a Christ-follower who's also a gay New Yorker who grew up secretly struggling with same sex attraction’ in the Independent Fundamental Baptist church. He grew up ignoring his sexual identity for the sake of his Christian identity which allowed sexual sin to fester in darkness until it could no longer be ignored. He is passionate about calling the church to be honest about the reality and extent of our brokenness to invite those around us to do the same. Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Okay, friends, we are having our third ever Exiles in Babylon conference, April 18th through the 20th in Boise, Idaho. You can attend virtually or attend live. Space is filling up. So if you do want to attend live, I would highly recommend registering sooner than later at theologyintheraw.com. That's theologyintheraw.com. We are going to tackle a bunch of really important and tough topics. We're going to talk about deconstruction, reconstruction, and the gospel. Why are people deconstructing from their former evangelical faith? We have Abigail Favali, Amin Hudson, Tim Whitaker from the New Evangelicals, and Evan Wickham, who are going to be dialoguing about that topic. We also are going to cover the extremely important and very sensitive topic of women, power, and abuse in the church.

We have Julie Slattery, Sandy Richter, Tiffany Bloom, Laurie Krieg addressing that super important topic. We're also going to tackle LGBTQ people and the church with Greg Coles, Brenna Blaine, Art Perea, and Kat LaPreri. And we're also, of course, going to tackle politics, three Christian views of politics, where we're going to have a left-leaning Christian, a right-leaning Christian, and a non-leaning and a Baptist-ish Christian, uh, who are going to, we're going to put them in dialogue together and, and, and hash some things out. So we have Brian Zahn representing that middle or non-position or whatever, uh, Chris Butler, left-leaning Christian, Joy Mosley, right-leaning Christian. We're also going to have Max Licato there. We're going to have a joint podcast with Amin Hudson from the Southside Rabbi podcast, along with YouTube

sensation Ruslan. And of course, we're going to have street hymns there throughout the conference, making everybody uncomfortable. Oh yeah. And of course, a worship with Evan Wickham and Tanika Wyatt. I cannot wait. This is going to be a barn burner, folks. I am working extremely hard to get canceled this year, so this might be the last. It won't be. Well, who knows? We'll see. Yeah, it's going to be engaging. It's going to be, I think, helpful and profitable and uncomfortable and encouraging and challenging and convicting and all those fun things. So go to theologyintheraw.com. Register sooner than later. That's theologyintheraw.com. I will see you in April. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today

is Colton Beach, who is a gay New Yorker who grew up secretly, quote, struggling with same-sex attraction in the independent fundamental Baptist church. And he shares his really interesting and engaging story in this conversation. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Colton Beach. All right. Hey, Colton, welcome to Theology in the Raw. It's been fun interacting with you on Twitter and through Patreon, but this is the first time on Theology in the Raw, so welcome. Yeah, thanks for having me. So I'm going to guess probably most people listening don't know who you are. So why don't

you go ahead and tell us who you are? I'd love to hear your story. From the bits and pieces I've gotten already, it's a pretty fascinating story. Yeah. I'll just jump in with my whole life story, right? It's crazy. I mean, a few years ago, for me to be publicly talking about one of the most nerve-wracking, secretive things in my life to anyone, much less publicly like this, it would have been a nightmare. Actually, I feel like I did have nightmares about people finding out about my sexuality and stuff like this. So younger me would be like really panicking right now. But yeah, why not? Let's just let's go for it. Yeah. Yeah, I feel I feel like a lot

of my story, kind of like I was telling you earlier is a lot about gaslighting myself, I think, and taking a lot of a lot of how I what experiencing in my day-to-day life and my spirituality and kind of keeping those divorced from each other, very separate and siloed, and kind of keeping these, like, oh, there's these shameful, taboo things in my life that I can't bring to my faith world or, like, the believers around me can't bring that into accountability. Like, that's not who I am. And especially today when I tell people, especially in the theologically conservative church that I'm gay,

there's this kind of reaction that harkens back to kind of the way I grew up thinking about this, which is like, stop talking about that. That's uncomfortable. That's not who you are. You're a Christian, that sort of thing. So I feel like the story of what I'm going to share is really kind of how it plays out to kind of say, let's not talk about these taboo issues in your life. And I want to talk a little bit after that about how that might apply to other Christians as well. But anyway, I grew up in South Carolina,

other Christians as well. But anyway, I, I grew up in South Carolina, multi-generation South Carolinian and multi-generation Christian, have a family on both sides who are pastors and, you know, Christian school administrators, all, all that stuff. And so kind of followed in the footsteps, really wanted to go into ministry myself and was pretty pumped about that. Like I have musical ability, I have public speaking ability. And so I was like, okay, this is a way I can use me in these different giftings, that sort of thing. As I grew up, hit puberty, realized, okay, actually I'm swinging towards gay porn, which is really weird. And no one's really given me a framework for this. I knew like, this adds up of like, by the way, you're going to be interested

in naked women. And you're like, you're going to want to look at that, like, don't look at that. But I was like, actually, I don't really want to look at that. So I have these like legalistic tendencies, Preston. So like, I was telling myself these lies of like, wow, you must be like, super spiritual, because like, there's this thing everyone's struggling with and you just don't you don't struggle with that. So like you're probably just more spiritual than other people. So obviously I found a way to, you know, play these mind games as we all do with ourselves, just kind of justifying myself about stuff like that. But I really didn't think anything of it. I didn't think it meant anything about me as a person or anything like that. I was just like, I guess I have, you know, really flexible sexuality or something like that. But as I was listening to what the church was

saying about all this stuff, I knew a lot about marriage, right? And so I'm going to have this wife one day and she's going to kind of be there for me in my loneliness. Like if I feel alone in any way, like there's I'm going to have companionship through having a wife. But also, you know, I'm going to have this sexual frustration and like my wife is the kind of like a solution to that in some way. And so I kind of actually, which is very demeaning, by the way, but I kind of applied that to my sexuality and it was like, okay, well, maybe like once I have a wife and we're having sex, then that's going to completely get rid of this thing for guys that I seem to be having, right? Like that's going to take care of that and kind of redirect that. And so that was kind of my mentality growing up. That was kind of my mentality growing up. Was that explicitly stated or was it kind of implied? Or do you recall anybody kind of hearing that?

Or was it just kind of in the air of the church you grew up in? Yeah, I'm trying to think back because I don't want to be as truthful as possible here. I don't think it was explicitly stated. It certainly wasn't explicitly stated in terms of sexuality, right? Because like, as far as gay people, gay people outside of the church are like, waving pride flags in the street and throwing condoms at people. It's like, and they hate Jesus, they hate the church. And I was like, well, that's not me, because I don't hate Jesus. I don't hate the church. I love I love Jesus care about my faith deeply. So like, I'm not one of those people that they're describing, right? So yeah, I mean, I don't think it was ever like, if you you marry a woman you're not gonna be gay anymore or anything like that um

but that was kind of my just from what i was picking up with people talking about you know my salvation is here and then marriage is right underneath that of like all the good things that are happening in my life and the things that are like making me live like this holistic life you know i i kind of like internalize that yeah it makes sense that like the church isn't even talking about being gay and possibly a christian so they're of course they're not giving it they're not telling you explicitly well if you just marry a woman so that actually makes sense yeah but it would be kind of implied from the narratives you're picking up on right i mean even culturally we weren't even talking about it either so it's not like the culture was talking about it,

but the church wasn't, which is kind of the case today. But it was just more so like no one was really talking about it at all. Right. So like I said, I wanted to be in ministry. I have several generations in my family, attended Bob Jones University, and I grew up in South Carolina. So I went to school in state there to go into ministry, dated a girl there. And the way I did it was, like, super calculated. It wasn't like, oh, I'm falling in love with this person. I was like, oh, she's, like, stereotypically beautiful, and I don't think she's dating anyone. And I've never dated anyone before. Like, I wonder if we could fall in love.

And, like, just kind of like finagle that, which was really weird. But once again, like, I don't know what other people's experience is. So I was like, you know, my experience is kind of all I have to go off of. So tried that out. I was doing several different ministry internships

during the summers of school. So like I was a music pastor at a small church, was a youth pastor at a different church. I worked at a summer camp, a Christian camp, and I came up here to New York City where I live now, working with a food pantry feeding the homeless, but was also like, also had kind of this ministry, like church plant sort of situation going on at the same time, like pseudo church plant. So yeah, I was all these different ministry things. And at the same time, kind of as I was going into each one, they're like, yeah, Colton, you're like really good on stage, but you're not a ministry minded person. And so I was like, okay, so I just

need to do better, right? Like, I'm, they're like, yeah, so I just need to do better. Right. Like I'm, um, I'm, they're like, yeah, like you can, you can preach a sermon, you can play the piano, you can sing, you can write the music, but like you, you can't help a grieving, like, I can't picture you comforting a grieving family, you know, or like, and, and that was really spot on. I would say like, I'm, I'm very performative. I'm so performative. And even at the time, the girl I was dating, she was like, I also think that you should probably pivot from this whole ministry thing. And so I did one of the things that you can only probably do at Bob Jones, which is switch from ministry as your major to theater. So I did and loved it i mean it was just it was basically like okay i guess we'll just have fun

um and oh i so enjoyed that like i i wrote um i wrote musicals um actually brought them up to new york did one of them performed one of them here that was super fun um we were doing like it's a very like artsy school um and so i was you know we did a full length version of hamlet and the director was like hey you write music go like have fun with the string orchestra in the recording studio and i was like okay like i got these incredible opportunities to like have all these artistic expression there it was it was it was super fun but i was like okay so maybe not ministry maybe something more performative and i'll just kind of lean into my strengths there didn't work out with that one girl at this when you're at bob jones are you out to you're not out publicly right are you out to

yourself dude okay you were okay yeah can you can you what does that feel what does that mean to not even be out to yourself in college oh yeah so i. So I was in full on rejection state, right? Like, so I'm still like, I'm a Christian. I'm not one of these gay people. But also at the same time, I need to leave the door open to be married to a woman and for that to work out well, right? Because I don't see a path of flourishing

as a single person. Like, people don't choose that. That's like kind of a shameful thing that is thrust upon people. If they can't choose that. That's like kind of a shameful thing that is thrust upon people. If they can't find someone, that sort of thing like was not given like, you know, that's like marriage and singleness or like really high call-ins or whatever. It was, it was like, yeah, you should probably really shoot for marriage. And it almost actually felt like something that was owed to me or guaranteed to me. It's like you have these sexual frustrations and God has a plan for that.

And if you just hold on long enough, like, and you wait for this partner, like you're going to have the best sex you'll ever have, right. Sort of thing. And it's like, Oh, so I can actually selfishly like hold out for someone. Okay. I guess I can get behind that. Actually there's something really interesting if we can take like a little pause, like in my story, um, I just came across someone shared with this with me on Twitter, um, these four chronic illness identity states, which is basically like, if you have this chronic disease, like how do you self conceptualize, um, with that

disease? And so you're asking about like, how, how can you deny that you're gay, but also realize like you have these sexual attractions to, to your own gender. Um, I know this is really like offensive, um, probably to a lot of people, but I think with our theology of looking at depravity and kind of how that encompasses our, you know, all of our sexualities and our minds, our imaginations, our bodies, like, you know, all every part of us, we can kind of make a bit of a jump and say,

maybe there's some overlap here. But as far as illness identity states goes, there's the rejection state, which psychology today describes as encompassing a refusal to accept chronic illness as part of one's identity um and the illness is seen as incompatible with one's sense of self there's a rejection uh to refuse there's a refusal to believe that you have an illness or that you're minimizing impact of the illness as well uh an ability to integrate the illness into the identity. It's leading to choices that are adversely affecting health.

For example, like not following treatment regimens, making lifestyle changes that are not supporting their health. So I feel like there's a lot of overlap as far as like how I was kind of handling this thing. That's like, this is pretty obvious and this is like a common theme that's not going away for me, right? But still kind of rejecting it and being like, this will go away or this isn't real or, you know, that sort of thing.

And I think that's kind of what kept me hooked on porn going through college and high school. It's just like, there was no one to talk to about it. And there was just so much shame and darkness and zero accountability. It's just kind of like, I just kind of have to pretend like it's not happening, especially since it's gay porn, right? So since I said one illness identity state, I'll share the other three. The other three are engulfment, acceptance, and enrichment. And there's no like order to this but engulfment is the opposite of the rejection um state and i don't necessarily think this is one i've experienced necessarily if in conjunction

with like my sexuality but in that state illness is overwhelmingly dominating life uh becoming a preoccupation uh preoccupation other aspects of identity, like relationships and hobbies, are kind of ignored. And understandably, depression and anxiety are increasing in this state, right? So it's like, take your whole personality, flush it down the toilet. This is all that you are, right? That sort of like opposite of rejection identity state. I feel like I've really gotten there, but I know people, uh, even in like the sexuality conversation who have, and, um, they're pretty insufferable to be around. I think most people would agree. Um, there's the acceptance state, which is exactly what it sounds like. You're not ignoring it. It's not all consuming.

Grief is part of true acceptance, moving towards healthy adaptations. Depression and anxiety decrease, typically, for those who are in the acceptance state. Then there's enrichment, which I believe is the state that I'm in now, and we'll get to there. But it's a recognition that positive changes have occurred as a result of the illness, right? These changes may include an increase in resilience and strength, reward appreciation for life, or renewed appreciation for life, clarification of values, that's a big one, improved well-being in association with that illness identity state. So yeah, that was a really, really, really long way to answer your question, but I thought about it a little bit.

I mean, I could see your posture when you called it like comparing your sexuality with an illness that you're not mapping, you're using this framework as a sort of analogous to your situation, but you're, is it, are you comfortable making that analogy? I mean, cause, cause some people could say just even trying to put those two in the same

sentence sounds could feel stigmatizing if not dehumanizing or I don't know, but you don't seem to be bothered by that. I don't know. I feel like my theological understanding, as long as it's equally applied, Justin, like as long as it's equally applied, Justin, like as long as we're all looking at our, our spiritual state and saying there's something wrong,

there's something deeply depraved and deeply fallen about us. Right. And we're not just saying that only applies to gay people, you know, like things that's attracted people. Yeah. I feel like I could get on board with that. And,

you know, I just, I'll speak for myself on that one. I'm not saying everyone would agree attracted people. Yeah. I feel like I could get on board with that. And, you know, I just, I'll speak for myself on that one. I'm not saying everyone would agree with that. Yeah. Everybody has a fallen sexuality. Not that sexuality as a whole is part of the fall. I think it's, you know, we were created sexual beings before the fall, but yeah, we all experienced, hopefully, I don't need to drive that point home that we all experience very fallen, sometimes

very dark depraved aspects of our sexuality and that's across the board. So yeah. Um, okay. So sorry, that was, I kind of threw you off your game, but, um, so you're Bob Jones, not even out to yourself. What, when, um, I'm curious, what's Bob Jones like, I mean, we always hear Bob Jones as this thing out there. That's like this, the kind of the off the chart to the right brand of Christianity. Um, I mean, I went to masters, which is just to the left of Bob Jones, um, as, as we, you know, say, um, but you know, I, I, you know, when people think people haven't been to masters, they think John MacArthur, you know, go home, Beth Moore and all these things.

And I'm like, well, the undergrad at least was it wasn't maybe as it was definitely conservative, but not there was a wide diversity of people and faculty and this that. And we had professors that would push the envelope. We had non-Christians on campus. You know, it was it was it was it was more it was maybe less. I think what people experienced did be like, oh, this is maybe not what I was picturing, but what's, yeah. What's Bob Jones like? Yeah. I mean, like it's kind of the culture in which I grew up.

Like I said, it was like multi-generational like alumni. Right. So it's like, it's a fish describing water. I don't really know how to describe it to someone who doesn't know what it's like. I will say, though, that we had a chapel speaker come in one time who was also an alumni. And he said something that I won't forget soon, which is that you can take a Bob Jones alumni and just kind of drop them into any cultural context anywhere in the world. And nine times out of 10, they are going to immediately figure out how to fit into that cultural context. I thought that was so smart because we are really good. Like it's so niche.

It's so niche. It has its, there are these kind of like their own rules of the road and kind of like, this is what's acceptable and what's not as far as like how you should make your bed or how you should dress or when you should go to bed or like um you know these these kind of rules are like what's okay as far as like what you say or like people allowed to hold hands you know stuff like that like everything is very regimented right it almost feels like a military school in some ways but like or what context you come from you're probably coming from a slightly different context of like do's and

don'ts. And so you basically have to figure out how to fit into the mold that Bob Jones is showing you how to be. And if you don't, then you're going to get kicked out and you're not going to, you're not going to like make it right. And so I think we're really good at kind of blending in or kind of conforming and not, I wouldn't say everyone, but I think most of us would be, but then you have to think about kind of what are the implications of that. It's like, and so then the students leave and they go out into other contexts where everyone isn't a Christian and it's not kind of like this Christian context or Christian bubble. It's like a secular bubble in some ways and then it's like well you've just enabled them to like perfectly fit into whatever that context

is and blend in and not be able to be uh distinct from from their their peers in a new kind of way and maybe that was unintentional uh but yeah i mean there's i could go on forever i don't get too too off the rails here so so yeah uh when did you first come out to yourself i guess and then i guess the next question would be when did you come out publicly right so let me get up to there so we uh were at bob jones date a girl we broke up uh date another girl there we broke up when I moved to New York and she was still there and then I was in New York just kind of like didn't have a relationship here didn't have a job here necessarily was just like this was the last internship that I did I really liked the vibe of the city um like everyone here is really intense I'm super intense. I feel very at home. So, yeah, I just have really loved the city and wanted to live here and just kind of make whatever could work here work. So I joined Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Keller's Church about six years ago.

And at the same time was kind of like after a year or so of living here, you know, I had Tinder and all this stuff. And I was kind of starting to explore like, what is this whole thing that I've been gaslighting myself about and still wasn't able to even draw myself to know that I was gaslighting myself. And so secretly just kind of switched my Tinder from looking for women to looking for men and women, and then exclusively started swiping on guys. And I wouldn't necessarily go out with them. But eventually I did. And it was just so nerve wracking, because I was scared that someone from church would like, see us. And it's like, there's no way they would know it was a date or a Tinder date, for that matter. But like,

just the idea that they might know like it was just so it felt so scandalous and so nerve-wracking and i was just so nervous but i was so intrigued to figure out what this was and like i also grew up with a lot of rules um as far as like drinking alcohol being wrong and um as far as like what else music with a beat is bad like morally stuff like that and i moved to new york and i was like oh i don't think i have personal convictions against these things and i was like i wonder if this whole like same sex thing is also one of those or it's like if it's a personally held conviction or if it's something that was kind of tough to me so i kind of wanted to discover that um and kind of be a little in

process um around the pandemic i got a real boyfriend and we were codependent for half a year just spent like every waking and sleeping hour together the first time we ever kissed I'd realized the difference between the last girlfriends that I had and this and it was just a world of difference where it's like my brain wasn't calculating like is this long enough like is this did that seem like was I into it enough? Did they enjoy that? I don't know. Like, it wasn't all these kind of like, is this normal? It was just not even thinking. And it was like the most natural thing ever. And that was really like, oh shoot, like this is real for me, right?

Like it's, this isn't just like a porn thing. Like this is, like, this is really me. And it's like okay great what are we going to do about that and so yeah we we um would you say that that was when you were fully out to yourself at that point i mean it was definitely not out to myself when i had a boyfriend who i was like sleeping with for six months no um i was like at this point it was like well maybe i'm bi you you know, because I was still thinking, right, my salvation from my like sexual brokenness and loneliness is still a wife.

Right. And I still had this conviction that I wasn't shaking yet about being with guys. So yeah, there, all of that was kind of happening simultaneously. And it was just very confusing. I was just trying to figure it out. And I didn't really have, like, the moral framework to figure that out, except, like, I knew gay is bad. But I didn't really know, like, what do I do about that? Like, can you give me a little more than that? So, yeah, still was in that rejection state at that point. But he, yeah, he didn't understand why I wasn't like out to everyone, why I was still closeted,

why I wasn't out to myself, why I couldn't be more committed to our relationship, which really grieves me too, you know, that like, I don't want to think that I let him on, but I feel like there's a lot of ways in which I did where I knew like conviction wise like this couldn't actually work out and I think that was just like a really deeply painful thing for me um as much as we loved each other and as like as great chemistry as we had um so yeah I actually recently just uh messaged him and asked for forgiveness which is probably I'm still in process with a lot of this stuff. But after that, I was like, well, I don't want to hurt anyone like I hurt him. And so I'm just gonna, like, keep figuring this out via hookup culture. So spent three years doing that.

Also continued to hurt people because I gave them reason to believe this because I like, like to go on romantic walks through the park and like movies and dinner nights and stuff like that so like I'm more like a hopeless romantic type and so people were reading into it and being like this is more than a hookup and it was but at the same time in my mind that's like all it was and so like I ended up hurting a lot a lot of others I deeply regret just trying to figure out my own stuff. And real quick, you're still involved in the church at this point? I mean, are you living in what you would call like kind of almost feel like felt like kind of two different lives?

You just compartmentalize this part of your life, separate it from it? Or do you feel loads of guilt with the church and heard Tim Keller preach or whatever? Yeah, 100%. I mean, it was 100%. I mean, it was completely separate things. It's like I, these gay people and these redeemer people can never meet each other because it's like,

they don't know that I like have a double life. It was a double life. Um, and I did feel tons of guilt. Like I couldn't read the Bible. I couldn't pray. Like when I did go to church, I had to kind of like turn my brain off and try to think about something else. But I was still legalistically going because it felt like the right thing to do. It felt like kind of my last like little string attached to like any sort of spirituality that I was just kind of holding on to barely.

and feel comfortable being in process with people about this of kind of this, what was going on. I, I, I didn't want my gay friends to know about the church stuff and I didn't want my church friends to know about the gay people. So yeah, it, and it was ultimately that, that Preston, that really got me to the point of like, I can't do this anymore. Like it was crushing. It was actually after a really good hookup, he left my apartment and I was like, wow, I guess the rest of my life is just chasing that again and again and again. And I'm just basically living for myself and squeezing as much pleasure out of life until I die. And that was just a really horrible thought and realization. And a lot of different things started happening at this point

that got me to where I'm at today. So I did kind of have this moment, which is obvious to everyone else in the world, except me apparently at this point of I'm gaslighting myself. I thought, you know, when's the last time I've checked out a girl on the sidewalk? It's like, never, like pretty much never. Like I just don't, but I'm checking out a girl on the sidewalk. It's like, never, like pretty much never. Like I, I just don't, but I'm checking out guys constantly. Um, it's like, yeah. Like when's the last time I've watched straight porn out of like more than just curiosity or wondering if I'm like, my sexuality has changed or something like that. Never. Right. And so it's like, I just have to be honest with myself. It's like, wow, this is who I am. And this is like, I am broken in this way. And it is a hard pill to swallow. Like, it's like, man, I want to, I want to be a Christian. I want to love Jesus. And like, I want that to be my true identity. And it's like, but this is still going on. And this is still very real in my life. this is still going on and this is still very real in my life.

And so, yeah, around this time, so I kind of came out to myself in a way. I was like, I'm not bi. I don't have this like fluid sexuality. Like I'm gay. And then around that time, some guys at Redeemer were talking to me and they were being really vulnerable with me just in our friendships about their married lives and opening up to me about struggles with porn sexual frustration that they're having even being married which is like blowing my mind because it's like wait I thought you got married so you don't have those issues anymore. I thought that was like, you know, taken care of. Yeah, that's what I was told. Like, hello. And then even going as far to say is like, and I'm lonely. And it's like, whoa. So you're telling me that if I didn't have this secret life going on and I was straight as a stick and I had this beautiful, wonderful, loving Christian wife, I would still be sexually frustrated and lonely? This is not the message that I was sold, right?

And that was kind of like a wake up call. So I'm realizing I'm gay. I'm realizing marriage doesn't fix things. I'm realizing, um, hookup culture is like not fulfilling for me. And I was like, well, this sounds crazy, but I feel the need to pick side here. And I think I'm going to go the die alone route. And that was basically my conception of what i know to be like side b now um so yeah basically just be single intentionally for the rest of my life um out of like alignment with my values and that sort of thing so yeah um you real quick what you're just i'm tracing it is this just post-covid like 2021 ish or this is a year ago

oh yeah oh wow this is fresh well 21 yeah oh this is new yeah this is new yeah so i'm still in process and like trying to figure out how to word all this stuff which is why it's taking me so long to get through this whole story but anyway yeah and so around that time i was like well i wonder if anyone else is doing this really weird like like, die alone thing, purposefully out of, like, this conviction, you know, towards God. And it's like, so I went to Spotify and I looked up podcasts, and lo and behold, Theology in the Raw. And so this is a very critical moment. Yeah, and I found, like, this thing about revoice.

And I was like, what is this? And I listened to your little clip of Misty Irons talking about the Gentiles, Judaizers, and how the Judaizers didn't feel like the Gentiles were like them enough. And so they needed to, you know, Judaize them and until they they seemed Jewish enough to be, you know, believers, right. And so it's like, wow, that is blowing my mind. Like, that is insane to think about. I attended my first Revoice conference this year. You know, I was singing, you know, the doxology with 500 other gay Christians who are, you know, committed to the biblical sexual ethic. And then after that, I was like, wow, I have to be a part of this.

And so then I basically convinced the Revoice team to let me join as the growth lead. And so now I'm helping them out with kind of growing Revoice, like basically all the churches and, you know, Christians who would benefit from our parachurch organization who don't know that it exists, like trying to reach them. So it's, you know, on a national scale. So it's a pretty big task. It's really fun, really exciting. Love connecting with people that way. I've messed up for sure. Like I've, I've slept around since making the celibacy commitment and it's like twice and it's, it's been really defeating in a, in a way, but also in another way, realizing,

wow, I went from multiple hookups a year to like twice in a year. It's like, wow, God is sanctifying this in me. And like, this is a huge change that I would not have imagined possible a year ago. And yeah, it just got kind of, um, changing, changing my heart in these ways. Um, so yeah, I just, I'm really passionate about speaking to how, how this affects the rest of the church, right? Like, I don't think this is just about gay people in the church. I think this is about all of us and about how, you know, we all have these taboo, really sinful, deep, dark parts of us that we're scared to let other people in into, but it's relatable and it's who we are.

And it's, it's, it's our story and it's the flesh and the spirit inside of us, like battling it out constantly and our sanctification. And it's like, we just have to be honest about that. Like when, when the world looks at us and they see these Christians and us being like,

our only identity is Christ. I'm a Christian and that is all I am. And I know nothing else. It's like, no, we see that you guys are super flawed. Like there is a dude in space and time and history that God made Mary a whore so that we could get a sense of what it's like for him to be with us. Right. It's like, we're not these like angelic like creatures on earth. It's like, we are so fallen. And it's the story of the Bible is not about how we are these morally upright people. It's about how we serve a morally superior God. Man, you just lost all your Catholic audience by your Mary reference. Sorry about that.

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drinkag1.com forward slash T-I-T-R. Check it out. I find your honesty very refreshing. You speak freely about stuff you wrestle with, your failures. Have you always been like that? Where does that come from? Or is that like a new phase in your life where you're just like, I'm just going to be who I am and not try to cover up? Yeah. Honestly, being open with people about my sexuality has just kind of freed me to hold my depravity really loosely. Because it's like Jesus took care of all this stuff that I'm going through 2000 years ago and I don't have to hide it. I don't have to pretend.

And in fact, we are called to be light and bring truth. And if I'm not being honest and open about my failures and my depravity, then it's like, how am I supposed to improve? Like, how am I supposed to improve? Like, how am I supposed to grow? Who's going to keep me accountable? Like, there's like, things just fester in the darkness. And that's been my experience.

And so it's pushed me to say these uncomfortable things. And you know what? Like, people appreciate that. Christian people appreciate that. Like, non-Christian people appreciate that because they're like, well, that's real. It's like, no lies expected, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think non-Christians typically have a much easier, they just typically are much more vulnerable and honest, it seems in my experience, you know, and then I get around Christians and it's like, maybe I have to put on

this plastic smile, this plastic face. And I think you put it perfectly when you said, you know, you need to hide your, your junk, it festers in the darkness and that's just not a healthy place to be. So, um, did you, did you ever go through, I mean, this is all fresh. So, I mean, maybe you're going through it now. Did you go through like a, a deep dive theologically to figure this stuff out? I mean, you said it early on, like, Hey, maybe all this Bob Jones legalism, maybe this is just another part of that, that I just kind of ditch with and yet still be a christian or did you did you end up going through a theological journey and and why did you land on the side b

side of things yeah the holy spirit just never let me go basically um like the whole time that i was like on tinder with guys or like exploring you know, the porn from a super young age. It's like all of that and it never let up. And I was assuming that it would. And if it was just something that wasn't a supernatural God thing. Right. It's like this will wear off. like this will wear off but you know there's that passage um in the new testament where where like there there are people who are given over or given up to their sexual immorality and it's like god just never gave me up and it's really sobering to think about it but that's so that's i mean

that's in a sense whether you're gay or straight the kind of hookup culture i think that's, I mean, that's in a sense, whether you're gay or straight, the kind of hookup culture, I think that's easy to say that that's, that's not the way of Christ. But did you ever explore the possibility of a long-term romantic relationship with a guy? Not, not hooking up, but actually like, you know, like, you know, the typical kind of Christian affirming point of view. It's never really made sense to me. There are other things in the Bible that it's like, oh, I could see this way or that way, but I've just never understood the affirming side of things from a conviction level or for, you know, a theological level. So yeah, I mean, like I listened to all those podcasts. I listened to like, like I have an entire bookshelf full of like faith and sexuality books that I like

like faith and sexuality books that I like read through this past year. So yeah, I looked into all of it, I guess. Like a firm theology is just not one that's ever clicked for me. I've never, I would love it to be true probably more than most people. Yeah. That's fair. I would love to, I guess, go back. You kind of said something in passing that triggered something in my mind.

We talked about this offline. You know, the whole, I'm not sure what phrase to use. I often use a phrase like policing of language. Or how about this? Maybe frame it this way. And this is a debate within evangelicalism. The whole idea of just the phrase alone, gay Christian, someone could be gay and a Christian, or at least even say that phrase, or maybe even use it as some kind of identity. Yes, you can struggle the same-sex attraction. Hopefully you're praying that God will take that away, but you cannot call yourself

a gay Christian, that kind of distinction. And this is what kind of connected us on Twitter. You made a statement that I thought was, you know, I thought helpful and provocative. And I was like, hey, let's jump on the podcast and talk about that because that was really interesting. Can you speak to us when you listen on to the church debating this idea of gay Christian, what are your thoughts on that? Because on the one, sorry, I tend to ask questions and I think out loud as I'm asking them, you know, but let me just frame it this way. On the one hand, yes, our identity is in Christ. Um, and yes, if we put any kind of modifier before Christian, yeah. Is that, are you, are we suggesting that there's something more important than our Christian faith?

Uh, hopefully not. I mean, but at the same time, language is complicated and flexible. So anyway, what, what, how do you, how are you thinking through some of these language debates that are going on? Yeah, I've thought, I've thought about it a lot. One thing that I want us to be careful of as theologically conservative Christians is this whole idea of making a false choice for people between acknowledging their sexuality and being a Christian. Because I think whenever we're so,

we're treating the word gay like the N-word within the conservative churches it makes it feel like it's this worse thing or this unspeakable thing that you can't be or it's like your life experience is too like we're depraved but you're like too depraved sort of thing um and you need to pick between like your your daily experience of your sexuality versus like your allegiance to christ um and it's like you can i think you And it's like, you can, I think you can acknowledge both, just like you can acknowledge any other, you know, flesh and spirit thing going on inside of us. I don't know that, well, I don't know.

I think if you look at what Paul says of not just being the chief of the tempted, right. He doesn't say like, I'm, I'm the most tempted person or whatever. It's like, I'm not, I'm not admitting to any sin when I acknowledge the nature of my sexual,

right. Like I could have, I could be gay, but like never actually do anything sinful or lustful with that, right? That that is possible. We believe Jesus did that with his sexuality, right? Like he had a sexuality, but like never sinned in that way, right? But yeah, Paul actually takes it further and says he's the chief of sinners.

And he's saying that as a believer, he's not saying that when he was killing Christians, right? Like he's like, so now like I'm, I'm the worst sinner. And it's like, Paul, what's your identity? Like, isn't your identity in Christ? Aren't you a child of the risen, you know, and you're like, you use all this like really big language or whatever. It's like, yeah, there's, there's a lot more going on in the world of sanctification than just this glorified, perfect, holy person. I mean, when you look at the children of Israel, right? It's like, how can you listen to all of what happened with them and their rebellion against God and their immediate idolatry,

like every turn and they're grumbling and complaining and not trusting in God and be like, wow, what a morally superior people, you know, it's like the takeaway be like, wow, what a morally superior people, you know, it's like the takeaway is like, wow, they suck. And like, but they have a morally superior God. And I think by us really being honest about how flawed we are and whatever ways that kind of manifests for each of us, that is glorifying God, because it's saying it's not us. It's not our works. It's not our legalism. It's Him. It's Christ, right? And I think if you're particularly legalistic, and I certainly have that bent, you just want to look right on the outside, kind of like Jesus was talking about, like these whitewashed sepulchers or these cups that are clean on the outside, but dirty on the inside. And Jesus says, stop worrying

about the outside. Stop worrying about this appearance. Stop worrying about like your PR as like a morally superior individual, like worry about your heart and let that clean you on the outside, right? Be clean on the inside and start there instead of starting on the outside. And so, yeah, I think there's this, there's just kind of this legalistic bent to start on the outside and be like, well, we're not being open and honest

about our shortcomings and our failures and our spiritual issues or whatever. So why are you doing that? That's making us uncomfortable. Can you just shut up about that? Like that feels really uncomfortable to us. And I would actually offer for the rest of the church to come and do what we're doing and be like, be open, be honest, stop pretending, stop hiding, stop being a whitewashed sepulcher, right? Stop looking so clean on the outside and presenting in this way

that you know is not authentic? Who are you fooling? So for you, am I hearing you say that when you use the term gay, maybe even alongside being a Christian, gay Christian, I'm gay and Christian or gay Christian, that you're not using that in a sense of celebrating your sexuality as much as admitting the fallenness of part of who you are? Is that what you're saying? Like for you, it's a mark of honesty, not celebration in a sense? Yeah, I would say it feels very neutral. I mean, whether or not I celebrate is like one thing, but it's like, it does feel just like a very neutral thing to say. And I think it's really weird how Christians suddenly like, don't know

what the word gay means in the year of our Lord, 2023, when it's like, do you have any friends who are like, like outside of your bubble or whatever? It's like, I, I, I just don't know what to say. It's like, do you know what straight means? Like, and, and so I've actually done this. So I, I held an unofficial event for some of my Christian friends here in the city a few weekends ago, where it was just a wine night and we could talk about faith and sexuality and they could ask all the questions that they were nervous to ask about. And like, I had like this anonymous Slido thing set up for them so they could ask them. And I shared my testimony and some key points. And I think one thing that helped them is I asked them a lot of these questions that Christians are like, what does gay mean?

I don't know what that is and that sort of thing. I just actually flipped the script and I subbed out the word gay for straight with a lot of the questions that I get. And so a few of those are like, how are we supposed to know if you're following Jesus as a straight person if all you tell us is that you're straight? Right? It's like, how are we supposed to know if you're like sleeping around with people or sleeping with someone before marriage? Like, all we know is you're straight. Like, you could be doing that. Like, how are we supposed to know? You can't just tell us you're straight. Can you

be straight without lusting after the opposite gender? And so there's a lot of equation with sin and with sexual attraction. It's like, can you be sexually attracted to someone without lusting? Well, can you be straight without on Twitter is what is the straight lifestyle? I would love to know what that is. It's like, it presumes that there's one, right? There's like one way to be straight. Well, we know there's multiple ways to be straight. There's multiple ways to live that out. And there's multiple ways to be gay, but we don't know that because we're silencing all the gay people in the conservative churches. And so they're all closeted, right? Is there a difference in being straight and struggling with opposite sex attraction? Yeah.

One is something that no one actually says. And the other one is in the vernacular. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, no one says I'm struggling with opposite. No one, no straight person can Steve's of themselves as having a problem with

attraction to the opposite. They, they conceive of having a problem with lust, in which case I would, you know, join in and be like, yeah, me too.

Like we're, we're all struggling with that together or whatever, but we're very lustful people. But, um, yeah, I don't, I don't know how this like conversion therapy lingo is useful to us,

especially from a missional perspective. Just a few more, Preston, if you, if you don't mind, um, why would you identify with straight culture if it's so problematic, right? There's so many problems in straight culture. What aren't, aren't you getting into sin if you identify with your straight desires, right? Um, doesn't the Bible say such were some of you? Ooh, this is a great one. You're not straight, you're a Christian.

Do you see how that sounds so weird to like a straight audience? It's like, no, I'm straight and I'm a Christian. And honestly, I don't really like saying I'm a gay Christian. It's like, I feel forced to say that because so many people have said that there's no such thing as a gay Christian. And I'm like, no, there is. And I'm one of them. You know, it's like, I would love to get to the

point where I can just be like, oh, I'm gay. And it's like, oh, cool. And we still like, we don't know where you've landed on. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think the point I love, I mean, whenever I give talks on this and I get into the language piece, I do almost exactly that. I try to help people understand how some of these phrases, practicing homosexual, the gay agenda, the gay lifestyle, that if we just flip it around, the straight agenda, the practicing heterosexual, these phrases just feel weird, if anything. straight, you know, they're practicing heterosexual. Like these phrases just feel weird. If anything, I think the response I can, I can hear the critics saying, well, yeah, I don't say I'm a straight Christian. I don't have a flag that identifies my straightness. There is no straight pride parades or anything. Um, but that's, yeah. Um, your, I think your point is well taken in the sense that these phrases are just, I think they're, they're too, they're too just broad brush and generic. And they've been, they've kind of picked up a negative scent over

the years. If I can, if I can put it like that. I'm glad to kind of take the other side of what I just said too. It's like, if, if you, you're like, well, straight equals good and gay equals bad. So you can't just flip flop them around. Right. But when I say I'm gay, I'm saying there's a group of people out there in the world that I am drawn to sexually act out with, right? Whether I do or not, that's not kind of what that's speaking to. And it's the same thing for people, right? And so it's like, it is not glorifying to God that we act out on any of those, even as far as like in our minds, which is considered lust. Right.

And so it's like, it's kind of the same thing for, for straight people and gay people in that sense. It's like, you can acknowledge that there's people out there that you're sexually drawn to and that you're not going to do anything about it. Like it's, it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Even, even even the yeah even the difference between something

like same set or let's just say sexual attraction and sexual temptation like when i say i'm straight that means i'm technically i'm attracted to females that's four billion people on the planet you know that doesn't mean i'm sexually attracted to in that kind of individual sense for billion people. I mean, that'd be stressful if anything. So even, even, I think language, I think we need to be very precise. I think it's helpful to be precise with what exactly are we talking about? Same sex orientation, attraction, experience, temptation, lust, like all these have overlapping nuances, but there's also some, some differences too. So when we use terms, just as synonyms back and forth, I think it, it can be unhelpful. Um, yeah. We call ourselves sinners. You know what I mean?

It's like some, a lot of people have a problem with that, but I, as a Christian do identify as a sinner. And I think to not do that is dishonest. Um, and you know, if Paul can do it, I feel like it's okay for me to like join, join in with that. Um, I don't know. I just, I feel like it really bumps up against like a legalistic mindset. Like it's really hard to be a gay legalist. You know what I mean? Um, like it's, it's, it's just so difficult to have this presentation of like, I've got it all figured out and like, come up to my level. And like, you just need to understand the Bible like I understand and follow it like I follow it, that sort of thing. Like, once you

start admitting like all these faults and shortcomings that you have, which the Bible acknowledges, right, the flesh and the spirit lust against each other. Like, that's the problem. And I mean, and if I could quote a verse, but woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces, for you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. To see this topic, I feel like that sums it up so well. It's like, we are heaping these extra burdens on people of, you know, some people probably saying,

well, you, you should be straight and that's what God wants for you. Or you should just stop talking about it. That's what God wants for you. Or like you're, you're, you're,

you're not, we're just going to gaslight you and say, you're a Christian. And that just kind of like somehow fixes everything. It's like, no, you're, you're heaping these heavy burdens on people and you're shutting the kingdom of God at their faces. And it's like, I just look at all of my friends who grew up in this very like,

pick, you know, you can't be gay and you can't be a Christian at the same time. And they're like, well, I guess I'm gay. And I guess I just have to live my life against my convictions. And they're all out there with their like partners and boyfriends and sleeping around and like experimenting and all this stuff, just like I was last, you know, several years. And it's like, we don't have to do that. You know what I mean? Like we can all just be honest. And it was, it was Christians being honest about their real stuff to me, um, that allowed

me in turn to be honest and reciprocate back to them. And it's like, can't we just do like that? I mean, you'd have to get rid of your legalism, but I feel like that would be worth it. So you're saying, so the aversion to the phrase gay Christian, you're saying has produced, at least in some cases, kind of a negative effect of, you know, the whole desire, I think, against people's motivation to say, don't use that phrase, is to help people not put their fundamental identity in their gayness, but in Christ. But you're saying it's actually, at least in your anecdotal experience, it's kind of pushed people away that it's like, oh, well, these two things are incompatible.

I think I'm a Christian, but I very much know I'm gay. So if I have to pick between one or the other, I can't deny the fact that I'm attracted to the same sex. That's interesting. I mean, you heard my whole story. It's basically a story of me trying to do the whole, I'm just a Christian. That's all that's going on here. There's nothing else under the surface. There's no complexity to it. Cookie cutter. I can just blend in and look like every other Christian. I have the same life experience and story as them. There's nothing else going on under the surface. I tried, and you're listening, and the listeners here, you guys are listening and like laughing at how I'm like having a boyfriend who I'm like codependent with and hooking up with.

And I'm still like, I'm not gay. Right. Like I'm I it's because I have this mentality of like, I'm a Christian and that's all that's happening. It's like, okay, well, maybe there's more nuance there, but I do. Yeah. I would agree. I think not being able to hold that nuance of like, I'm a sinner and a saint in the same hand is, it did drive me towards this kind of like very compartmentalized, siloed, secretive, dual life, right?

That just became untenable. And I see that happening with pretty much everyone else who grew up in this way of like, yeah, you got to pick between one or the other. I didn't even think about that analogy of sinner and saint. I mean, I know this is kind of a reform slogan, or is it Lutheran? I think it's more Lutheran. But yeah, those are two significant aspects of our humanity that some conservative Christians in particular would find helpful to hold intention. I am a sinner and I am also a saint, two at the same time. So even if somebody saw being gay strictly as like reduce it to this

is your fallen part of your fallen nature. Even so being gay and a Christian could be similar to the center and saint kind of holding these intention. I never thought about that. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of things about us that are fallen that aren't sinful. Right. I mean,

I'm wearing clothes right now because I'm fallen. Right. That was not the original, the OG intent, but it's like, I'm not going to gaslight myself and be like, I am a redeemed son of God. You know, like you don't walk around naked because that was God's original design. And it's like, can we, can we acknowledge the full story of the scriptures here and stop like pretending like the fall didn't happen and stop pretending like we're not still in Adam and we're still in this flesh, right? That God will one day glorify and renew.

Um, and I do, I, so I feel like the language thing and the legalism is all part of it. I think another part of it is just this idol of marriage though, Preston, like there, there is such an idol and idolatry. And I tried to make it as clear as I could in my story of like feeling like I would be saved by someone out by a woman who could like be my wife. Right. And, and I felt like that would bring happiness. And I felt like I was waiting to be happy until that happened. And I felt like she would somehow like get rid of temptation in my life and like that she would kind of fill this like God like longing inside of me like that, that I have, you know, that God can only fulfill. And, you know, it's really crazy.

Like we do have these desires and this sort of thing. Like we do have these desires and this sort of thing. I think it was really eye opening for me when I realized like there there is this guy who who does love me and who I also love and who just kind of gets me and understands who I am. And, you know, when I mess up and kind of fall, like he seems to be really forgiving. And we actually are going to get married. And that's like my very true identity and reality. And it's Jesus, you know, it's like, wow, I actually am going to marry a guy. And like, this is my future. And this is what I have to look forward to. And in a way, we're just kind of awaiting the feast of the wedding reception, right? Like that's, we're all going to celebrate that together. And so now when I go to weddings, and I see the groom up at front getting teary eyed, looking at his bride coming down the aisle, I'm thinking, wow, that's how much Jesus cares about me and how excited he is to be reunited with me. And that just gives me a lot of

joy. That's powerful, man. That is, I mean, this is where a theology of sexuality, oftentimes the way we talk about it often falls short where our sexuality and human marriage ultimately points us to our final union with Christ. And I think it is quite telling that a lot of straight people, at least ones with happy marriages, often find it disappointing, right? That Jesus said there will be no marriage in the resurrection. And I felt that I'm like, wow, really? Like that's kind of disappointing, but it's only disappointing if the thought of being unified with Jesus in, in the resurrection, only if that feels disappointing. And honestly,

it's, it's people like you and other friends that I have that are pursuing celibacy that they've made that the bedrock of their existence, you know, that they are longing, sometimes agonizing, sometimes lamenting, but always longing for their union with Jesus as the ultimate pull that pulls them through this life, that pulls them through disobedience, you know, and to think that, well, when they hear, when you hear, Colton, you know, being gay is not your ultimate identity, you should not use that word. You need to find your identity in Jesus. This is where I understand where that concern is coming from. But if you look at how people are actually living their life, I can only imagine how frustrating, if not insulting, that is. Well, I also agree with that. Like I'd say being gay is not my ultimate identity.

If it were, I'd have a husband right now. It is part of my identity, though. I mean, at least while I'm on this earth, on this earth, right. It's like, that's, that's, that's part of what's going on. There's a lot else that's going on. I'm also a legalist. Like I fight that all the time. And it's like, there's the law and then there's Christ. Right. And I have these, these two ways to go. And it's like, um, I don't want to like invest in my relationship with Christ. I'm just going to tidy up and be a better person. And I constantly go to that.

And I constantly go to that. And it's like, no, that's not what Christianity is about, right? And so there's so much of our identity and so much nuance there. But there is, like people say, there is a chief identity. There is a supreme identity to rule them all, right? And for a true Christian, that is who you are in Christ and every identity under that is the word subservient to that. Yeah, that's good. Would you call yourself, would you call yourself a legalistic gay Christian? And if so, can I use that as a title for this podcast? A legalistic gay,

honestly, that's great. A raw conversation with a legalistic gay Christian. Here I am. Colton, this has been a fun conversation and, and uh I could keep talking with you for hours this is really interesting to me and uh um if I ever make out to New York we'll have to connect and uh you can take me out to some New York pizza place or whatever um whatever I think in New York I just think of food for some reason I just I get hungry when I think of New York oh we've got some great spots over here like I'm I'm in this like very greek area so we oh man greek food here too but i'll definitely see you at exiles i'm super pumped for that right yeah i'll see you there man well thanks so much for being on this podcast colton uh can if people

want to get a hold of you do you have any kind of website or social media you want or anything you want to advertise that or do you not want people to reach out to you oh no they totally can um on twitter i'm urbanized beach um all in one word urbanized beach i didn't know that's that or do you not want people to reach out to you? Oh no, they totally can. Um, on Twitter, I'm urbanized beach. Um, all one word. Urbanized beach. I didn't know that's your handle. Okay. Um, oh yeah, there it is. Urbanized, urbanized beach. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks so much again. And, uh, many blessings in your life and your ministry, Colton. I appreciate having the conversation with you. Yeah. Same. Thanks so much, Preston. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.