Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1141: The War in Gaza: A Palestinian Pastor/Theologian's Perspective: Dr. Rev. Munther Isaac

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour and serves as the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is the author of “The Other Side of the Wall”, “From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth”, “An Introduction to Palestinian Theology” (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently has published a book on women ordination in the church, also in Arabic. Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a Master in Biblical Studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.  Sign the petition to advocate for a ceasefire:  https://www.change.org/p/an-open-letter-from-palestinian-christians-to-western-church-leaders-and-theologians?recruiter=1319605589&recruited_by_id=a6f6fd10-6e69-11ee-abdf-5b152ac3937c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink  Contribute financially to relief for Palestinians in Gaza:  https://shepherd-society.org  For ongoing, honest, and well-researched updates on the situation in Israel-Palestine, follow the Scott Horton Show and the podcast “Antiwar News with Dave DeCamp.” The Bible Recap: https://thebiblerecap.myshopify.com/products/the-bible-recap?utm_source=TITR-PODCAST&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=q1TBR_TITR&utm_id=TITR-Q124  Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Dr. Munther Isaac, who is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahur. He's also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College and the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint Conferences. He has a master's degree in biblical studies from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and a PhD from the Oxford Center for Mission Studies in Oxford, England. He's the author of several books, including The Other Side of the Wall, From Land to Lands, From Eden to the Renewed Earth, An Introduction to Palestinian

Theology, a commentary on the book of Daniel, and has more recently published a book on women ordination in the church. The last three books are written in Arabic. This conversation is a sobering one. Yeah, just keep in mind that I recorded this episode, this conversation with Munther about a week before Christmas. So if something has happened between this recording and the time you are listening to it, and it goes unmentioned in this conversation, then that's why. We talk a lot about the war in Gaza. We talk about how it's affected Palestinian Christians, how Palestinian Christians have both been encouraged in some ways, but also discouraged by how Christians, their brothers and sisters in Christ in the West have responded to the war. We talk a lot about how many thousands of children

have been killed and how that has affected the kingdom of God that resides in Israel, Palestine. We talked about the millions of people who have been displaced. And Munther also responds to some of the, for lack of better terms, the so-called pro-Israel arguments or talking points, namely that this whole war is Hamas's fault. Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas is using civilians as human shields. And if Hamas laid down their arms, there would be peace. But if Israel laid down their arms, there would be genocide against the Jewish people. I'm sure you've heard of many of these arguments or talking points. And we do talk fairly extensively through all of that. Munther also gives a thoughtful and I would say very Christ-centered response to all of

these issues. We talk about empire. We talk about why so many Palestinian Christians are dedicated to nonviolence, which I find very fascinating, actually. We talk about why and how many Christians in the West are not at all dedicated to nonviolence. I think that's an interesting ecclesiological point that I would like to come back to in a future episode. I learned a lot from Munther in this conversation, and I think you will too. I'll just leave it at that. I'm really excited for you to listen to this conversation. Please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Dr. Reverend Munther Isaac. Munther, thanks so much for taking the time to be on Theology in Raw. I know you have, I mean, obviously a lot going on in your life, not including pastoring, I believe,

two congregations and helping run a Bible college among many other things going on in your side of the world. Munther, I've ran into several people that keep telling me, you need to have Munther on the show. You need to have Munther on the show. He's hard to get because he's very busy. So genuinely, thank you for being on this podcast. No, it's my honor.

Thank you for having on this podcast. Oh, it's my honor. Thank you for having me and, uh, excited. We finally have the chance to do it. Yeah. Where, where are you in Bethlehem right now? Is that where you're living?

I am in Bethlehem. I am literally at the center of Bethlehem at my church office at Christmas Lutheran church in a very central place in Bethlehem. Five minutes walk from the church of the nativity where Jesus was born. And did you grow up there? I grew up in Beit Sahour. Beit Sahour is a town next to Bethlehem, also known as the Shepherd's Field, adjacent to Bethlehem.

The listener might hear some Muslim prayers in the background. It's because, Munthu, you're right next to a mosque, right? So five times a day they broadcast prayers. Yes, side by side with our Muslim neighbors. We've been neighbors for years here in Palestine. This is part of normal life here. Yeah, I lived in Israel for several months and I remember really loving, I don't know why.

I actually put some other Christians confronted me on it because these are Muslim prayers. You shouldn't like this. I'm like, there's just something about waking up to this like prayer over a loudspeaker that reminds you you're not in America anymore. So I don't know. I actually enjoyed the ambience. I have so many questions and I, yeah, my heart's just torn apart by what's going on in Israel-Palestine. And I've probably spent more time listening to various news reports, podcasts, debates, updates than I ever have of any event. And so, yeah, I just have a whole list of questions I'd love to ask you. I guess I want to lead with the main question. How are Palestinian

Christians doing with all that's going on? How would you summarize? I almost said your people, but I'm going to say our people because we are a global body of Christ. How are, if you're a Christian, our people doing over the last couple of months? We are broken. We're literally broken by what is happening on multiple levels. We're devastated by the images, by the reality, by the death toll, by the severity of the killing, the destruction. We're traumatized even because the images of families leaving their homes, carrying whatever they could get with them from the north to the south, and only to realize that their homes have been completely destroyed,

brings to us memories of 1948, the Nakba. And as such, we realize that what's happening here is an assault, a genocide against all Palestinians, not just Hamas or a certain political group. We see what's happening and we understand it. Gaza is our people. Gaza is our family, our friends. And as Palestinian Christians, we're devastated because we have a community there of Palestinians who've been in Gaza for generations, both people who are, you know, truly indigenous people of Gaza,

but also refugees from 1948 who settled in Gaza. And many of them have relatives in our congregations, in our neighborhoods, and we are concerned for them. We're concerned for what's happening in Gaza, but we're also concerned as a pastor. I have two pastors for and shepherd for their relatives here in Bethlehem, who literally fear that at any moment they would hear the news of breaking news. A church, the church was bombed again. was bombed again. So far, 22 Palestinian Christians have been killed in this war.

For a small community of almost 900 or 1,000, that's a lot. That's a big loss. I'm talking about the Christians in Gaza. And it's part of a wider catastrophe that's been happening there. I think we're almost now 20,000 people who have been killed. Again, to us, these are not just numbers. These are people we know. Among them, almost 9,000 children. And I don't think we should pass by that number easily. There's something wrong with us if we just mention it as a number. Every 15 minutes, a child is killed. That should horrify every one of us. That should shake us to our core. And the fact that it's been happening for almost, what now, 70 days, day

after day, and I don't see the urgency of world leaders or church leaders to stop it is baffling, to be honest. I mean, we're horrified by the lack of urgency to stop this war. It's as if we don't matter. So when I say we're broken, part of it is we feel that the world does not see us as equal humans, to be honest. And this is a feeling that we will carry with us. I know I will carry with me. Long after this war is over, given the silence, it seems everyone is okay. And you just look how much, what's the number now? So it's 17,000.

Okay, now it's 18,000. This is how it looks like. We've just turned into numbers. And I haven't heard serious talks about this war ending anytime soon. Thank you for sharing. I mean, especially those of us in the West, we just have no category, no category at all of what it is to live through what you and so many others are living through right now. So you kind of mentioned in passing, how have you felt about the church, let's just say in America or in the West in general, how have you felt about the church in the West? Have you felt supported?

Have you felt marginalized, silenced? And again, I know that's a big entity, the Western church. I mean, there's a lot of diversity there. But in general, how have you felt about your brothers and sisters in Christ who are living on my side of the pond? Yeah. No, I mean, I have to begin by acknowledging that we have many friends who are praying for us on a daily basis, who are sending us constant messages of support. sending us constant messages of support. I know many Christians in the West who continue to demonstrate, who have written letters, appeals, have called aggressively for a ceasefire,

have taken strong stance, and I can't not acknowledge that and thank them. I think this is the time for costly solidarity, and many Christians have shown that. But I must admit that the noise and the sound of those who are beating the war drum is much louder and much more horrifying. We've seen Christians who not only justified this war, even called for Israel to turn Gaza into a parking lot. I just, you know, listened to a scene from the recent Republican presidential debate, and they were asked about Gaza and Hamas, and the response was horrifying. You know, you get the impression we're not human. Just destroy it. Get rid of them. Finish them with no regard to human life.

And I know some people might say, well, these are not Christians. But many of them have expressed openly Christian beliefs, even evangelical beliefs. You know, support to Israel is still strong in the Western world, in the Western church, among evangelicals. It makes us angry. It makes us angry on multiple levels. As a Palestinian, it makes me angry. But as a Christian also, I'm concerned for the credibility of our Christian witness. I mean, there's this obsession with war and violence. I'm shocked by it. And I'm not just talking about those obsessed with the end times and

eschatology, but many evangelical Christians think of this land and, you know, the just war theory was justified self-defense, you know, as if war is okay, as long, you know,

as, and even that I'm still struggling with I never think war is okay and we shouldn't spoke about war in such an easy way, of course it's so convenient to discuss it to rationalize it, but every time

a child is killed and pulled from under the rubble in Gaza and every time we hear how the world justifies and rationalizes killing, I'm horrified. I'm horrified. And I can't, I mean, I'm not exaggerating to tell you that even our faith was shaken by these witnesses, by these voices. I mean, my God, why do you allow this? How long do we have to tolerate Christians weaponizing the Bible? And you also have, don't forget, a good number of Christians, churches, who are silent.

They're praying for peace, I'm sure, but don't have the courage to take a stand. Usually they are the ones who are very generous, by the way, when the genocide is over. They will show up with relief money. They will appear righteous and, you know, they're doing good. But right now they're silent or they're very, very polite in their prayer for peace and a ceasefire. We can't afford this.

We can't afford this. This is not just any other conflict. Let me repeat it. Every 15 minutes, a child is killed. Are we okay with that? Seriously, are we okay with that? Well, I think there's two ideologies, and you hit on both of them, that have converged, I think, in the Western mindset.

Number one is a Zionist ideology that basically says Israel is basically good, has a theological claim to the land, and Palestinians are basically bad and they don't belong in the land. don't belong in the land. I'm not saying every version of Zionist theology would say that, but that's kind of a big, broad brushstroke that I think... I grew up with that. I mean, that was basically up until a few years ago, what I would have said unquestionably. And then you have the other problem of militarism. The American evangelical church fascinated with military might. If it was just a belief in just war theory, I could live with that. I mean, you and I share a commitment to nonviolence, Moonther. I don't know if I said that earlier, but even actual just war theory says you don't target combatants. If actual just war theory was being pursued here, or sorry, you don't target non-combatants. I think

I said combatants. If actual just war theory was passionate being pursued, I don't think it goes far enough, but I'd be like, okay, I can see the logic of that. But I think that there is this excessive fascination with militarism that does pervade. I'm just going to speak specifically to the American evangelical church. So you take those two ideologies and converge them together, and I could only understand how you can be frustrated and discouraged with the response. Yeah. Let me comment on the just war theory, because I think we should examine the sources and who uses it. I think the just war theory is just one convenient way for coloniality, for the ideology of empire to justify its expansion ideology and practices

and make it look good. We're doing something good and just in this war. look good. We're doing something good and just in this war. It's usually a justification used by empire to expand. This is at least how we read and understand from this side of the receiving end of war, this just war theory. And I wish those people who use it, you know, explain it and use it in the same way you did. And we've read the articles. We've read the articles that use the just war theory. 9,000 children killed later.

And I'm still waiting for the follow-up to say, well, it doesn't apply anymore. But again, they're silent. And to go back to your first point, to every point about Zionism and Christian Zionism, just to help you understand the force of that ideology from the perspective of Palestinians. I mean, you have colonizers coming from Europe to our land, imposing a certain religious belief, namely that this is our land because God gave it to us, or because, you know, our religion originated here.

We have to accept it somehow. We have to accept that their religion is the right interpretation. Their theology is the right interpretation. And leave the land where we've been here for generations. You know, the Palestinian people are the indigenous people of the land. We have roots here for hundreds if not thousands of years. And imagine someone coming from outside and imposing a point of view that our God tells us this is our land. Just because I am of a certain religion, I could be living now in Russia or in Ethiopia or in the United States.

I can immigrate to your land, expel you from it, build a state on it, because my religion says it's okay, because my religion actually supports this claim. Put yourself in our shoes as Palestinians. How would you receive that? How would you perceive that God, actually, who they claim they believe in and represent. And of course, if you take that ideology to the extreme, you're absolutely right. You nailed it. It becomes a force, a conflict between good and evil. I've written so much about this, how we have an ugly separation wall in the West Bank. And I say walls exist before they are constructed. Walls exist when we think we're

superior, when we think we're entitled. And once we feel like this, we build these walls, and those on the other side of the wall are the inferior, the evil, the terrorist. And as such, it's okay and it can be justified if we besiege them and bomb them. And sadly this is the same, this is the ideology that has been on display, that has been used, this is the tool for 16 years that allowed the world to be okay with the siege on Gaza, and now with the total annihilation of that community that no longer exists, they have been completely displaced. 85% of Gazans are now homeless. Let that sink in. Where will they go after this war?

If this is not the cleansing, what is? And you see how it can be justified one step after the other. I do want to, let me try to represent the other viewpoint. I would love to hear you respond to this. And I'm a big fan of trying to represent other people's perspectives correctly. So I'm going to try to do this with as much fairness as I possibly can. So, because this is a viewpoint that I think the majority of American Christians grew up with and are probably the only perspective they're hearing is that Hamas is a terrorist organization. In fact, they were voted into office by a majority vote in 2005, 2006. They're the ones who committed an atrocity, one of the biggest massacres of Jewish people since the Holocaust. Israel has a right to defend

itself. And they're not targeting civilians, but Hamas uses civilians as human shields. And so Israel, the IDF, you know, does as much as it can to avoid killing civilians that they do roof knocking, you know, drop fake bombs to warn people that it's coming. They call people saying, flee this area because we're going to strike because Hamas is here. And Hamas has vowed to annihilate every Jew in Israel. And they said they're going to keep doing October 7th again and again and again. And so Israel, if they don't destroy Hamas, Hamas will end up destroying more innocent civilians. And so civilian deaths, it's a sad reality of war. War is hell.

But what do you expect Israel to do? How do you... Did I do well? Is that... Again, I'm trying to... I mean, I hear that. I mean, this is the response I often get when I say, what about the Palestinian side of this conflict? If I can even call it the conflict.

How do you respond to, I know that there's probably several things there. Yeah, you hit on several issues. Let me try to address some of the points you've raised and then address the bigger picture, because I think that's the most important thing. First of all, I hear a lot that Gaza, they elected Hamas and they deserve this. The elections took place in 2007.

Hamas narrowly won the elections. In other words, you can't even say that an overwhelming majority or a majority. And every political analyst understands too well that and knows that Hamas didn't win because they were that popular. But a big reason why they won is people were tired of the alternative, which is the secular Fatah party, which back then was marked with corruption and lack of achievement. People sympathized with Hamas after the second intifada because of the brutality of the Israeli attacks. And they saw that Hamas actually is doing resistance. This is how people thought of things. They were tired and so they voted.

So let's remember, not everyone voted. And then let's also remember that this happened, what now, how many years ago? Which means that the majority of Gaza people today, of Gazans, actually did not vote for Hamas because they were not, the majority of Gazals are actually youth and children. The only reality they know in their life is that of a siege that came after Hamas. You can't blame them for that. Collective punishment is a war crime. What happened to our principles that we boast about? So let's check the facts and let's humanize people. Don't just talk about Ghazans as Hamas. Those are people with families with children,

and most of them have known nothing in their life other than the siege. On the other issue that Israel has the right to defend itself, that Israel has the right to defend itself. How is the displacement of 1.9 million people a self-defense? How do you still defend that position? How is the killing of 9,000 children self-defense? Have you heard what the Israeli politicians, Prime Minister and his cabinet and the war cabinet, have you heard what they

said they intend to do? I mean, they talked about a vengeance campaign. They talked about not ever having Gaza in the same manner again. They've called us animals. The acts on the ground speak clearly that what Israel is doing is a vengeance campaign that has no regard whatsoever to civilian lives. Clearly the Israeli military has instructions to shoot at any moving target. The proof is that they even killed their own hostages who were carrying white flags and who were shouting in Hebrew.

Three days ago, two Palestinian Christian women were shot dead in the church vicinity. Clearly, they represented no danger. So any moving target right now is, any moving thing is a target to the Israeli military. We understand too well in Palestine. We understand too well this is not about eliminating Hamas. This is about eliminating Gaza. This is about displacement of the Palestinians. It's the Nakba happening all over again. We understand this, facts speak. And again, I'm tired of hearing that Israel is avoiding civilians. If truly they're doing so, they're really bad at it, to be honest. I want to, you know, the human shield argument.

Let's assume that in Tennessee, let's say, or in... You have a serial killer who's on the run. He's killed many children. He's a really evil person. He runs away from the police and then hides in a school and kidnaps children.

Will you then support bombing the whole school to get rid of that serial killer? Seriously? He's taking the children, he's taking your children as human shields. Is that okay? We can blame him. Let's bomb the school and blame him. Is this an argument you accept on your own children? You would accept it in one case if these were not people, if these were animals. And to be honest, we're beginning to think that maybe even animals have more rights in other countries than we do. So the idea of Hamas taking Palestinian civilians

as human shields, to be honest, it's insulting. Think of what you're saying. Would you do the same? Would you accept the same in your own context? I hope, you know, I'm wondering when will the church, you know, I've given up on politicians, but when will the church have the courage to say this is wrong? What the Israeli military is doing is wrong. You know, attacking hospitals is wrong. Again, you know, look at the numbers of civilians, look at the numbers of children. But Preston, I think we need to look at the bigger picture, because I think this is where the crux is. This is where the real issue is. All of these arguments aim to alter the narrative. And by that I mean, make Israel the victim. Have we forgotten وعن ذلك أعني أن إسرائيل تجعلها مصابة.

هل تنسى أن إسرائيل هي المتواجدين ونحن المتواجدين؟ هل تنسى أننا كنا في المنزل والمدن 75 سنوات قبل لا نفعل شيئ؟ عندما وصلت المتواجدين الجيوشيين إلى بلسطين ووضعوا قرية على مدينتنا على مدينة المدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدينة والمدين arrived at Palestine and established a state on our lands, on the ruins of the towns and villages of those Gazans who were displaced. Have we forgotten that? And then Israel is defending itself freely? Do these Gazans have any right to defend themselves, their homes? So these questions are framed in a way to alter the narrative. And in a sense, to alter the narrative and in a sense you forget who's the colonizer and who's the colonizer. It's been 75 years of denying Palestinians their rights, their right of self-determination,

denying the refugees the right of return. It's been 75 years of killing any opportunity of a Palestinian state. The current Israeli government, before October 7th, Netanyahu for years had been publicly opposed to a Palestinian state. Have we forgotten that? So 75 years of injustice towards the Palestinians, 75 years, and the end result is a system that has been described by many as an apartheid system. Don't take my word, take the word of international organizations like Human Rights Watch, like Amnesty International, or take the word of Israeli human rights organizations like B'Tselem and Yehudin. Take the UN reports, the multiple ones.

And if we're going to dismiss all of these as right-wing, left-wing socialist propaganda, then let's get rid of them. Let's get rid of the international law and human rights organizations. You know, we're convinced after this war that the international law and the human rights and all of these have a footnote.

We missed it, the apostrophe, with the exception of Palestinians. It doesn't apply. So framing the question in such a way isolates October 7th. October 7th was horrifying. I cannot condone or support October. You know, it's kidnapping children. It's killing people in their homes. Of course, we condemn it.

But isolating it and making it this story is a real problem. It's adopting the narrative of the colonial mentality. It's adopting the narrative of the empire. Are you tired of being asked, Munther, do you condemn Hamas? Do you condemn October's death? That's got to be exhausting for a pastor who believes in nonviolence to be asked whether he supports or condemns the killing of 1, doesn't it seem strange that you're asking the occupied to acknowledge his occupier's right to exist? This is how, you know, these things are imposed on us. They want to frame the narrative in a certain way and we just have to accept.

In the same way I've been asked for years, you know, do you believe God gave this land to the Jewish people? And then we engage in response and so on and ignore the reality on the ground, the real issues of justice, of land confiscation, of segregation, of denying the Palestinians their basic, basic human rights, like getting water, uniting with their spouses, uniting with families, going from one city to the other without having to be stopped at checkpoints.

I mean, this is our daily lives. Instead, we've been asked all over and over to answer questions about replacement theology, anti-Semitism, accepting Israel's right to exist. And I'm tired of playing on the tones that the Western world dictates for us. We want to talk about the real issues that matter to us. I know I was trying to represent the other narrative, but I just want to come out and just say, I think the whole like using human shields as an excuse for what Israel is doing, that is the most morally embarrassing bankrupt logic I've heard in a long time. And it's a shame that Christians would even reference that as an argument. As if somebody took your kid and used your kid as a

human shield, my kid, I wouldn't say, well, got to shoot the kid, got to get the enemy. That's just... On what planet do we reason that way morally? And then I hear... It's one thing for Babylon or Rome or some empire to use that as an argument. That's war propaganda. That's expected. Of course, when a secular state of Israel uses that as... Whatever. Of course, they would say that. But when Christians start... I've heard Christians actually say that.

I'm like, do you hear yourself? Is there anything in Jesus that would justify... I'm waiting for the therefore. Well, they're using human shields. They look at me like, therefore, therefore what? So you killed the human? And here's where, from my perspective, and I think you would share this, the dehumanization of Palestinian people was put on full display when there was legitimate outrage over the three hostages that were killed. That's three horrifying deaths. Innocent hostages taken, held captive, and then they were killed. So I'm horrified at that as I

am with any death. But it makes me think, well, wait a minute. Where has the horror been with 20,000 people killed, 8,000 children? All of a sudden, now we care about the death of innocent people? And now the human shield argument doesn't work because you could say, well, Hamas used these hostages as human shields. So what do you expect? You know, well, no, that argument all of a sudden doesn't work because they're Israeli hostages. But doesn't that put on full display the dehumanization of Palestinian

lives over against Israeli lives? I mean, am I missing something here? No, I mean, in my book, The Other Side of the Wall, I dedicated a whole section on the dehumanization of Palestinians and Palestinian Christians, by the way. And I continue to say we've been ignored, dismissed, and dehumanized, in certain instances even demonized. And it's an old, old ideology. Think of phrases like a land without people, for a people without a land. The land had people, but the land was described as a land without people because we are uh it's it was without people of equal worth they're arabs they're palestinians they're muslims they could be you know shifted asked you know

moved somewhere else we still hear this today why doesn't egypt open the borders why doesn't jordan open the borders as if we have no identity no rootedness no ideology, no nationality, no connection to this land, as if we're just boxes in a room that you don't know what to do with, and why don't you take the boxes here and there and somewhere. You know, it's not just no understanding of the politics of the Middle East that Palestinians are not Egyptians. Yes, we're Arabs, but we're not the same. It's a total disregard to our identity, our rootedness in this land, to our humanity.

And again, it's a land without people. And it manifested in church language today when you talk about the Jews return to their land. You know, the moment you say that word, the Jews return to their land, it gives the impression that I, Mulder, a Palestinian who's been living in this neighborhood actually for generations, and that, you know, we belong to this area for years. We're actually the occupiers. We took someone else's land. We didn't get the memo that God promised this land 4,000 years ago to a certain, what, nationality or ethnicity. promised this land 4,000 years ago to a certain, what, nationality or ethnicity. But this is a common language in churches today.

You talk about the land as if it's empty. You celebrate the miracle of Israel as if Israel was established on empty land because there is no regard whatsoever to the people who lived in the land and who had to, you know, let go, become refugees or kill for Israel to be a state. So this continues. This continues. It's a typical colonial mentality that looks less of people who are colonized. And to be honest, it's one of the main reasons behind our manger in our church today heard around the world, the manger on the rubble.

around the world, the mention on the rubble, this is one of the reasons behind it. Because I was tired, angry, frustrated by the dehumanization of these children, these precious children who are killed in Gaza on a daily basis, pulled from under the rubble with the dust, with injuries, and the world justifies that. And I've been saying it in our church.

We see Jesus in every one of them. When I saw these children lying, you know, in white cloth in front of a hospital or a church in Gaza, you know, the thing that comes to me is when Jesus said, come to me, let those children come to me. Because the world has been rejecting them. And I said, when everyone is rejecting and dehumanizing Palestinians, my goodness, I love Jesus' teaching. So if we think of them, how provocative they are, how challenging they are. When he says, I was hungry, you give me food, I was thirsty, I was a stranger, I was a prisoner, by the way, you know, we don't comment on that,

most likely a political prisoner. And you visited me. And then he says, whatever you have done to any one of these, least of these, you have done to me. And what an honor, I say, those displaced, marginalized, and dehumanized have for Jesus to say, you know, what you do to them, you do to me. What an honor. So the world can continue to disown and dehumanize Palestinians. And I see something completely else.

This is why I say if Jesus was born today he will be born precisely in Gaza under the rubble to challenge that mentality of dehumanization and to say I am with you in your pain and suffering this is one really main reason behind this

manger we created with a Palestinian child with Jesus wearing a Palestinian kufiya under the rubble as our Christmas manger. It's a, it's a really powerful picture. It's on your, your Twitter account, right? I think I saw it there. It's been on different media outlets and social media accounts.

Yes, it did. It did attract a lot of attention because it was a shocking image. Baby Jesus under the rubble. Yeah. If you go to at Moonther Isaac, your Twitter or X account or whatever, there are several articles. Religiousnews.com picked it up.

There was one post you made that got hundreds of thousands of retweets and likes and stuff. It's a powerful, powerful image. I'm looking at it right now. Yeah, I encourage people to check it out. I'll put a link in the show notes. It connects Christmas with reality. As I get older, I'm becoming more and more aware of the fact that I need to take care of my health. And this is why I've been taking AG1 for over a year and a half now. AG1 is a foundational nutrition supplement that supports your body's universal needs like your gut health, stress management, immune support. Ever since 2010, AG1 has led the future of foundational nutrition by continuously refining their formula to create a smarter, better way to elevate your baseline health. Now, for me personally, after taking AG1 consistently, I experience more sustained energy throughout the day. Like if I have a cup of coffee in the afternoon,

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one-year supply of vitamin D3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs, which I use all the time because I travel quite a bit and I'm constantly stuffing my bag with AG1 travel packs. So with your first purchase, you get five free AG1 travel packs. If you just go to drinkag1.com forward slash T-I-T-R. That's drinkag1.com forward slash T-I-T-R. Check it out. When it comes to reading and understanding the Bible, my number one piece of advice is to read the whole Bible over and over and over. It's so important to gain a good view of the forest before you analyze the trees. But sometimes reading the whole Bible can be really daunting. I mean, not only is it like a really large book, but let's face it, some parts can be super hard to understand. This is why I'm so excited about the Bible Recap, a one-year guide to reading

and understanding the entire Bible by Tara Lee Cobble, a friend of mine who I had on the podcast not too long ago, episode 1067. So the Bible Recap takes you through the whole Bible, and then it explains each day's study in short two-page summaries of each portion of scripture that you just read. And what I love most about the Bible Recap is that it's focused on what each section of scripture reveals to us about the person and work of God. So it doesn't fall into like human-centered moralism. It keeps the focus on what the Bible tells us about God. In fact, a couple of my kids are actually going to be trying to read through the whole

Bible this next year, and they're going to also be going through the Bible Recap alongside their yearly Bible reading. Tara Lee Cobble, the author of the Bible recap. I mean, she's awesome. She's a relentless researcher when it comes to scripture and a super clear and engaging writer. And she's also the host of the super popular, the Bible recap podcast. So yeah, I would invite you to go check out Theology in Raw episode 1067, where I had an awesome conversation with Tara Lee Coble, and you can hear her heart for God and scripture. So I highly recommend buying the Bible Recap for yourself

or for someone you know that's wanting to wrap their mind and heart around the storyline of scripture. Just go to thebiblerecap.com to find out more. That's thebiblerecap.com. find out more. That's thebiblerecap.com. I do have a disconnect, Moonther. I mean, I go to church and it's almost like this whole situation is just ignored or just not even mentioned, you know, and then we sing these happy worship songs and greet each other. And it's just, it's, I feel a little icky for lack of better terms. And I don't, yeah, I'm still wrestling with that. There was

one thing you said that I would love to get your perspective on. I have heard, and I haven't done a lot of research on this, but that Israel has offered peace to, let's just say, Palestinians over and over and over. And they always reject the terms of peace even in 1948 there was this like you have this plot of land we have this and and palestinians rejected that and in 2000 2001 with the whole clinton um was that the oslo accords i forget no not oslo and it maybe yeah that they off they offered peace again saying okay here's let's divide up the land two-state solution and and either hamas or Palestinians rejected that. What's the story?

But I read on the other side of that, and they said, no, the terms were not acceptable, and that's why they rejected it, because it wasn't fair terms offered. So can you inform us on what those... From the Palestinian perspective, the terms were not acceptable, and they did not make Palestinians and Israelis equal or give equal rights and privileges and sovereignties. It wasn't a real state.

It was a quote-unquote state. Let's again look at the bigger picture. Israel was established on 78% of historical Palestine. The Palestinian leadership made a compromise and said, we'll accept a two-state solution on 22% of the land. We were never offered that 22%. In fact, immediately after the Oslo Accords, which were signed in the 90s, which were supposed to last for five years, Israel engaged in an aggressive campaign of building settlements on the Palestinian territories in the West Bank, increasing the settler community, including the settlers and settlement buildings.

the settlers and settlement buildings. So they were never really genuine about giving Palestinians the full 22%, which we considered then a compromise, which many Palestinian leaders and intellectuals considered a big compromise. Why should we accept it? So we accepted the compromise, but it was... And all the negotiations were later, how much of the 22% we get? And the Palestinians said, no, we want the full 22%. This is the condition for peace. This has always been the real issue when it comes to, it's usually the weaker side that's asked to compromise. And we are asked to compromise given that we've already have, in our consideration at least, made a compromise when we accepted the two-state solution and a state only on 22%, which is the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

This is what the international community accepts. This is what is meant by the two-state solution. is meant by the two-state solution. And Palestinians, at least the political leaders, reject to negotiate of anything less than the full 22% of the land. Now, is that possible today? I don't know. Israel has built so many settlements on the West Bank. The West Bank is fragmented.

There are segregation roads. Do you know that in the West Bank there are roads that are only for Israeli Jews? Just think of that, that we cannot use as Palestinians. So this is the reality right now. You know, even Israeli historians would say and politicians, this is not a missed opportunity. I can't remember the name of an Israeli politician and negotiator who said, if I were a Palestinian, of my Patreon supporters for questions. And so they sent in a bunch of questions and they voted on which questions they wanted me to ask. And so we can't get, I probably have like 40 questions here. So let me just go to the ones that were voted on the most. The number one voted question that they wanted me to ask you, this comes from Danny.

He says, what would you consider is the biggest misconception the American church or Americans in general have of Palestinian people? And how can we think better? I think some of this has probably already been touched on. But if you can give a summary. Yeah, I would say the biggest misconception about the reality is that, you know, let me expand that question. Misconceptions about the situation here. I would say several things. First of all, that this is a religious conflict.

It's not a religious conflict. It's a conflict on territory, on sovereignty. And for us, it's a reality of settler colonialism. And that's my second point of the misconception, is that it's not a conflict. It's a reality of settler colonialism that continues to exist until today. We are, as Palestinians, the indigenous people,

we've been in this land for generations. European Zionist settlers came to Palestine claiming that this is their land because of religious beliefs, the world accepted and now we have this reality we live in. And finally, I think I would say that not all Palestinians are Hamas. I have to say this now. Not all Palestinians actually believe in violence. The majority of Palestinian intellectuals believe in nonviolent resistance.

Most of us want to share this land with the Jews. Most of us feel that the only way forward is sharing the land, reaching a peace settlement of some way or another. And finally, the biggest misconceptions is that all Palestinians are Muslims. There are Palestinian Christians who have lived and existed in this land since the time of Christ, since the time of the first church. So we represent probably the first and definitely the first, but also the oldest Christian community in the world. The fact that people continue to be surprised that we exist surprises me. It should be surprising if we did not exist as Palestinian Christians. So this, I would say, some of the most misconceptions people have about the situation.

All right. Thank you. Next question comes from Justin. He says, what are your views related to replacement theology? You kind of mentioned this in passing. What is biblical Israel? Has God transferred the promises for Israel to the church? Then he kind of references Romans 9. And I think this is a genuine question. I don't think he's trying to like corny you with anything here. Wow. This is a whole episode question. anything here? Wow. This is a whole episode question. Actually, let me jump in and say,

for those who have questions about a theology of the land in particular, I did an episode a couple months ago with Gary Burge, who's written two outstanding books on the topic. So I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. I think it's titled, Do Christians Have a Theological Mandate to Support the Modern State of Israel or something like that. So we go through a lot of texts, a lot of theology. So if you want a thorough response, I would go there. You would agree with Gary, right? You guys would line up, I think, and I would too, theologically. I think we're very close theologically. Everyone says it in his own way way I've written a lot on the land, my PhD was on

the promised land theology these are very important questions but they would need some time, let me answer them briefly and then make an important comment replacement theology that's not my language, that's not our language here, this is a western concept

that assumes some people are superior. They take the place of others. It's built in this entitled attitude. Who's entitled? Who's superior? Is it us or the Jews? And now we say it's us. And I reject the whole premise of this discussion. On the question who receives the promises and so on, I think I would say, first of all, my biblical understanding is simple. It's based on Galatians. In Christ, you are Abraham's offspring, earth according to the promises. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, free nor slave, male or female. You're all one in Christ. If you are male or female, you're all one in Christ.

If you are Abraham's offspring, you're heirs to the promises. You know, to me, it's simple. I mean, just read that and it doesn't mean so much unpacking. There is no spiritual seed or physical seed. When I say heirs according to the promises, I don't understand this at all to be a statement of superiority or privilege. It's about the promises that we should bless people. We should be a light to people.

It's all. And that's our mandate. That's our responsibility. It's not a privilege. You know, I think that at the end of the day, we can debate these questions. My biggest concern is the relevancy to what's happening. Do we solve the Palestinian-Israeli situation, a situation that is so right now violent, brutal, people are dying? Do we solve it by the right interpretation of

Romans 11? Is the solution imposing our... and I'm going to assume that the Christian Zionist interpretation is the correct one. Do we solve this reality by imposing this theological belief on an entire Palestinian people and saying, we believe God gave the land to the Jewish people, you should give a sign? Seriously? Is this the best we have to offer as Christians? Do we accept in any other context for the Bible to be used as the textbook that decides who owns a certain piece of land? We go crazy when Muslims use this language, don't we?

We go crazy when Muslims say we have a divine mandate or a divine right to own a certain piece of land. But it's perfectly fine if here in this situation. And to be clear, you know, I think the right way forward is how do we promote the theology in which Christian Jews and Muslims share this land without any of them claiming exclusive ownership of it? This is how we move forward. How do we promote a theology that challenges unjust structures of segregation and apartheid and superiority? Right now, we live in an understate that claims the right for self-determination is exclusive to the Jewish people only. Can any Christian be okay with that? Because the Bible says so.

So I think for years, we've been tricked into thinking that the answer and peacemaking has to do with answering questions about replacement theology, Israel and the church. And by the way, as a side note, let's respect the diversity among the Jewish community and how they read their scriptures and how they understand these promises to Abraham and their relevancy today. Let's not impose a certain theological belief on the Jewish people themselves.

I wish listeners move aside and go beyond this old way of dealing with the Palestinian-Israeli situation. We need to be true peacemakers who listen, who understand, and not just think that the answer lies in good exegesis of Galatians and Romans and Genesis. How is it relevant? Again, how is it relevant to what's happening uh in the land today we think tricked and we think that you know what the bible says about israel applies to the modern state of israel today no i disagree that's not how we go forward that's that's not the way forward

we cannot impose anything on people and at the same you know, why do we have to accept this connection and everything that follows from that connection? No, I'm sorry. That's not how we move forward. For my audience that may be just really tuning in for the first time or hasn't really thought through this, one of the most fundamental things we need to do is distinguish between biblical Israel and the modern state of Israel. If you want to say that they are somehow connected, that's a really lengthy theological argument you're going to have to make, and people have made that argument. But I think a lot of Christians just passively assume when they hear the modern state of Israel, they just automatically think, oh, biblical Israel, modern state of Israel, it's the same term, it's the same land.

And that's, to me, the theological conversation must begin with making a very stark distinction between those two. And again, if you want to connect them, make that argument, but that's an argument that needs to be made, not an assumption that just needs to be had. Munther, do you have time for just two more, I want to say quick questions, but we'll see how quick they are. Okay, the next question, what do Palestinians think of Hamas? You've kind of, I think, addressed that to some extent. Yeah, that's a complicated question because it depends when you ask this question. Most surveys have shown that Hamas was very unpopular before October 7th.

Now it's very popular. It depends on when you ask this question, the circumstances in which you ask this question. Hamas is widely viewed in Palestine as a resistant movement. Many do not approve its religious ideology, yet still accept it as a resistance movement. Hamas has a lot of opponents within the Palestinian society, most notably from many Fattah leaders and members. There are many people who say,

you know, who would, you know, maybe before the war say, we don't care for Hamas, we just want to live in peace. But when they see what Israel is doing, they say we wish Hamas prevails. It's complicated. It's a complicated question. But I can say with certainty that Hamas does not represent the majority or even close to the majority of Palestinians. Definitely it doesn't represent the majority or even close to the majority of Palestinians. Definitely, it doesn't represent the majority of Palestinians in the West Bank. And before the war, according to the studies and surveys, it did not represent the majority of Palestinians in Gaza. Yet the Yet the desire for freedom, independence represents all Palestinians.

As a Christian, it's hard for me to accept the religious ideology of Hamas. We are against religious states to begin with, whether it's a Jewish state, an Islamic state, or a Christian state. Palestinian Christians by and large promote and believe in nonviolence as a way of challenging the occupation and resisting the occupation. This is part of the Christian identity here, the Christian fabric, which is why, again, I said I can't understand any Christian supporting anyone to begin with. If you ask us as Palestinian Christians about Hamas, you know, they could be our classmates, they could be people we meet in the streets. Hamas is not just a political group, it represents an ideology of some in the Palestinian society who believe that we should fight Israel from

a religious perspective, from that of representing an Islamic state. Many in Gaza who lived under Hamas speak of lack of freedoms, lack of freedom of expression, and so on. So Hamas' experiment in Gaza wasn't a successful one, to be honest. At least this is what many who lived under Hamas those last 16 years would say. I'd recently learned, and please verify this, that the top three leaders of Hamas have a net worth of $11 billion. This is in the Washington Post. A few other, they're flying around in private jets, living life of luxury while their people are suffering.

To me, that just seems like another manifestation of empire, if you think about it. Is that true? Many Hamas leaders are in Qatar. Yeah, definitely. Many Hamas leaders are in Qatar. Yeah, definitely. Many Hamas leaders are in Qatar. And again, it's a representation of this complicated reality because there are those who are very devoted to that cause, who are willing to die for it,

and sadly who are willing to commit horrific events, horrific acts in their eagerness to support that ideology, even if it's kidnapping children and killing children. And if you're oppressed for years, if all you know is poverty, if all you know is oppression and no freedom, I think it's easy to be led into becoming a Hamas fighter because you're desperate, because you have no other alternative. I think if the Western world is serious about eliminating Hamas, you cannot eliminate Hamas without offering those young Palestinians an alternative, an alternative to work, to

live in dignity, to raise their children in dignity, to feed their families. Right now that alternative doesn't exist. You know, it brings us back to our core belief, wars and siege cannot bring peace and security. Unless you realize how the cumulative injustice that people in Gaza had to endure, you will not be able to understand Hamas. And when I say this, people think I'm justifying or I'm defending Hamas. No, I mean, you cannot have this conversation in a simplistic way. Hamas is evil, it's barbaric, it's demonic.

You have to ask the right questions. You have to ask, how did we get here? Why do people join Hamas? You have to ask these questions. I fully agree. And I don't, there's a massive difference between trying to understand context and reasons for certain actions

versus justifying those actions. Those are two very different things going on. So when people, if you even try to understand why some people might support Hamas or where Hamas came from, people automatically say, you're justifying it. That's just, again, that's just very poor logic. And anyway, I talked about that in a previous podcast. One more question, and then I'll let you go. This one's really probably the best question, really. This comes from Catherine. She asks, what's the biggest way we can help you right now?

Is there a specific organization you'd recommend donating to? Or I'll expand the question to if it's not donating money, is there something else? If people are listening and saying, okay, so can we do anything? What can Christians do to help support our brothers and sisters in Christ in Israel, Palestine? Right now, there's one thing we're asking. Call for a ceasefire today, not tomorrow. Lobby for a ceasefire. Write your representatives. Nag them. Keep writing. Keep demonstrating. Keep writing, keep demonstrating, keep having stand-ins. This is not about calling for, you know, at this stage, we're asking just for that. I'm not even saying support Palestinians over Israelis or Israelis. I'm just saying we need a ceasefire. We can't afford one more day

with this brutal war. Calling for a ceasefire is a commitment, I think, that can be achieved by lobbying, by calling, by making your voices heard. I wish the more pressure there is on policymakers, the sooner we will get to a moment where this war is over. This is right now our biggest plea. This is our biggest ask at this stage. And only then we can even begin thinking of what's next, because what's next is horrifying. What's next is, I mean, it's hard to believe that it's hell on earth right now. People live in horror.

People, you know, they're telling us literally horror stories. And then the moment this war is over, you think it's the end, but it's not. You know, I think of my friends in the church who are seeking refuge. They just want to survive. They wish they could survive and I put myself in their shoes and I can fathom being under threat of being killed

any moment for more than two months from now yet they still have to face the reality that after this war they have no house to go back to their homes were destroyed I'm talking about the Christian community in the churches. Their homes were destroyed. Imagine the pain.

Imagine the horror. Imagine the trauma. I really don't know where to begin when it comes, how can we help? It's a human tragedy on a huge magnitude of scale. This is millions now, around 2 million who have been displaced. Think of those generations who will grow up with this trauma. One person in the church described it as one day in this war is worse

than all other wars combined. In my good news. How do they ever survive this? How do they ever survive this how do they ever survive hearing just a sound of shock again after this war and then you think of the many

many many many tens of thousands of disabilities as a result of this war thousands of children who are orphans or lost their siblings. I mean, I don't know where to begin. There will be,

I'm sure, many opportunities for relief efforts. At Bethlehem Bible College, we have a whole program designated for that called the Shepherd Society. I encourage you to look it over.

The need will be massive. The need will be massive. I'm even horrified thinking of it. But going back to my first point, let's get rid of this ugly genocide that is happening in Gaza, and then we can talk further. If someone did want to donate, could they donate to the Shepherd Society through Bethlehem Bible College? Would those resources go to help physical needs? can talk further. If someone did want to donate, could they donate to the Shepherd Society through Bethlehem Bible College? Would those resources go to help physical needs? Yes, yes. And it's very trusted. We have partners in Gelser

that we hope will survive. And we're coordinating all efforts with other partners, other church partners, so that there is no duplication. Right now, most of the support is still on hold because we can't get it anywhere.

You know, you can't get anything into Masjid. Yeah. Even access to those besieged in the church and with the wider community, the hospitals and schools we have contact with. I mean, everything has stopped. But you can help definitely through Bethlehem Bible College

Shepherd Society. There is a link that you can go to. I will put the link in. Also, did you create an open letter for people to sign? Was that a few weeks ago? I thought I heard something about that, that you're trying to get evangelical leaders to... Yes, there is an open letter, a call for repentance, and it addresses what we believe is the complicity of many churches with the genocide that is taking place right now. It's in change.org, and it's called an open letter from Palestinian Christians to Western Christian leaders and theologians, a call to repentance, it challenges the dominant perspective of the Western world, the Western Christian world with regards to this, to what's happening in Gaza. I encourage you to read it and be challenged by it. I encourage you to read it multiple times and give it some time to think and pause.

It offers a totally new and different perspective that I think the church in the West needs to hear. So far, close to 900,000 people signed it. It created a good movement of discussions and conversations. This happened a while ago. This happened probably the first three, four weeks of the war. I'm disappointed that the war is still happening. I'm disappointed that after all of our efforts, all of our advocacy, all of our calls, I personally traveled to DC for this particular purpose to call for a ceasefire. And we're still not even close to a ceasefire. I mean, we're devastated. We're really devastated. Munther, thank you so much for your time. This is such a heavy topic, but this is

I mean, something you're obviously living right in the middle of. Please pass on, I guess my, as much as I'm representing anybody listening who's sympathetic with everything you have said, please pass on our greetings and our prayers to our brothers and sisters in Christ

that you are shepherding. I know there's frustration regarding the American church, the Western church. Just know there are maybe a minority, but there are people who are deeply concerned and are agonizing and would like to do whatever they can to come alongside our brothers and sisters in the kingdom. So thank you for being on Theology in Raw, and I'm sure you have lots of pastoral duties to get back to, and a wonderful family to go, I'm sure, be with right now. So thank you so much, Munther, for your time. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.