Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1151: Same-Sex Attraction, Female Sexuality, and Parenting LGBTQ Kids: Ellen Radcliff

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

Ellen Radcliff, a therapist and the author of the forthcoming book: Love Covers Over: A Guide for Christian Parents Raising Kids in an LGBTQ+ World. Ellen channels her love for God, her clinical expertise, and her experience as a former lesbian to walk alongside individuals, couples, and families as they navigate the nuances of sex, sexuality, and gender in our modern world, while remaining rooted in their faith. In this conversation, we talk about her journey in faith and sexuality, the fluidity of female sexuality, and about healthy ways to parent LGBTQ kids. Learn more about Ellen's ministries: Strength in Weakness Ministries, Home from Home Podcast, and Heart Set Above. Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in Iran. My guest today is the one and only Ellen Radcliffe, who's a therapist and the author of a book titled Love Covers Over, a guide for Christian parents raising kids in an LGBTQ plus world. She draws upon both her clinical expertise and her experience as a former lesbian as she walks with parents in this really important conversation. We begin by talking about her own journey with her sexuality and her faith, and then we move into talking more extensively about what she has learned over the years and walking with parents, Christian parents, with LGBTQ kids. So, very excited for you to listen to this really important conversation. Please welcome to the show the one and only Ellen Radcliffe. Ellen, welcome to Theology in a Row.

Thank you. Very excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Why don't you tell us a bit about your story, to know that plays a role in the current work you do, and then we can jump into that current work that you do. Yeah. Well, just a preemptive note here. I am a little bit sick. I do have two young kids that are walking Petri dishes, so they've infected me with their latest virus. So if you hear a cough drop rolling around in my mouth, I apologize. That's what's happening. But yeah, I am a preacher's kid, grew up in church. I was really loved and well cared for growing up. There was nothing majorly tragic or traumatic in my childhood, but I did

grow up with sort of this festering insecurity about my femininity. I grew up where I was more like my dad than I was like my mom. And so at such a young age, that was really confusing for me and it really frustrated me. And so I dealt with that insecurity differently during my upbringing. I started with turning it inwardly on me, shaming myself for it. You know, you're disgusting. You're not good enough. You don't belong among women, things like that. And then forcing myself to study other women in the hopes of imitating them so that I could

figure out how to belong among them. But then as I got older into my preteen and teenage years, I got really tired of that, of shaming myself in that way. And just, I went in kind of the, of shaming myself in that way. And just, I went in kind of the opposite direction and convinced myself that those kinds of women, right, women like my mom and women like her, they were weak and silly and frilly and that I was superior to them. I think just because my heart couldn't take it anymore, you know, feeling inadequate and inferior in that way. And so I still felt, you know, this deep insecurity in my femininity, even as I turned that animosity outward. But that

it was kind of that insecurity that led me to looking for a sense of identity and belonging among women so much so that I had some really emotionally enmeshed same-sex friendships in my teenage years. And so eventually, as they often do, especially with teenage girls, one of these friendships morphed into a same-sex romantic and sexual relationship, which then springboarded me into the LGBTQ community. And I did. I lived as a proud lesbian for a time until I finally realized that everything I'd really been searching for my whole life up until

that point, a place to belong, a place to be seen, known, and understood as I am, identity markers that were everlasting instead of fleeting, all of those things already existed for me, but they only existed in God. And so that's when I decided to become a Christian. And when I became a Christian, I still felt really insecure about my femininity. I felt like I partly belonged in God's kingdom, but I also felt that because of my attraction toward other women, I wasn't fully welcomed in God's kingdom. And that's when I found the Strength in Weakness Ministries, which is a parachurch organization that seeks to bridge the gap between the LGBTQ community and God's church through education,

awareness, and support. that seeks to bridge the gap between the LGBTQ community and God's church through education, awareness, and support. And so that really offered me an extra space to belong within God's kingdom, a place that other people got it. Without me having to explain all of my experiences with words, they just got it. So that was really healing to my wounded heart up until that point. So I was part of that ministry. Then I started helping out, volunteering. Now I still serve on a volunteer basis with that ministry as their chief operating officer. And sort of alongside all of that, I got married, I got a master's in counseling,

I had two kids. Now I have my own therapy practice, but I also have a consultation business where I meet with people on all matters of faith, but sort of my specific area of focus are matters that relate to sex, sexuality, and gender. And I would say that my main demographic for that business right now are Christian parents of LGBTQ kids. So that's how I kind of got here to where I am today. What's on my plate now. Thank you.

Real quick, before you forget, can you give us just some quick links to your various ministries? Because I mean, I'm so shocked that I had not heard of Strength and Weakness. Yeah. When you sent me the link originally, I checked it out. I'm like, this is an awesome ministry. I thought I knew like all the different ministries in the space that exist out there. So yeah, give us a few links of the various things you do just in case people want to check them out. Then I got a bunch of questions. Yeah. So Strength and weakness is strength in I N weakness. Sometimes people want to do strength and weakness, strength in weakness.org. Uh, and so that is a

great space to just learn about, you know, LGBTQ topics, how it relates to us in matters of faith. But also I think the coolest thing strength and weakness offers are support groups for their members. As a member, you get lots of benefits, devotional series and blog posts and all this kind of stuff. But the best part of it, I think, is you get access to these support groups with either other Christian parents of LGBTQ children or other same-sex attracted Christians. And you meet regularly and you kind of have this space to belong, that space where people just get it. So check that out, strengthinweakness.org. They also have a podcast, Home from Home. And my consultation business is heartsetabove.com. And I have lots of resources on there as well. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. A few questions about your journey. And just

so my audience knows, you told me offline that there's no question off limits. You share very openly about everything in your life. So if I ask you a question that might sound kind of a little invasive to my audience, you've invited me to ask that question. So the way you tell your story with your own sexuality, it feels like, I mean, let me frame it as a question. Do you see within the nature nurture debate about what causes same sex sexuality? Do you see a bit of blend in your story? Because it sounds like you emphasize a bit of the nurture component, that there were

some life circumstances regarding your own femininity, or you feeling like you were falling short of the femininity you saw that kind of led to becoming overly enmeshed with a friend and leading to a romantic relationship. How would you describe your own, yeah, the nature, that nature-nurture kind of debate in your own story? Yeah, I think for sure. I think with every characteristic, every experience that all of us have, there's an obvious blend of nature and nurture. I think for me, that's really apparent in my sexual attraction and my sexuality. I mean, you know, I think of it like a cup, right? So if I have this cup and it's, maybe I was 80% full that I would, you know, have this

outward characteristic of being attracted to other women, but there, maybe there was a 30%, you know, empty space. And that was covered, you know, made up with all of these environmental factors that I experienced as a child. And some of those are big things like this insecurity in my femininity growing up more so like my dad and that really confusing me, feeling overly enmeshed with other women. And then of course, my first sexual experience was with another woman. And so that created a lot of neural circuitry that reinforced that attraction in the future, but also little innocuous things make that up as well, right? You see a commercial, a perfume commercial. Women especially have very fluid sexuality, right?

We have a broad range of potential to be attracted to different people in both genders. And so if a young girl, you know, if I saw a perfume commercial growing up with depicting another woman and I felt sexual arousal over that, something I have no control over, which wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility even for a heterosexual woman, that also could create neural circuitry that could reinforce that same-sex sexual orientation and, you know, kind of fill up that cup to become an outward experience and characteristic. So, yeah, I definitely see both in there. And also, I'm an both in there. And also I'm an Enneagram eight that grew up in the South, right? So all the more, I just felt so out of place growing up and the LGBTQ community, of course, this was a different time that I grew up in, but even then was really great at acceptance, right? This was a place where you could come and feel like you're free to be you and you will be accepted exactly as you are.

And so that was a real draw as well. When you feel so out of place and you find this place to belong, not just with someone else in a romantic relationship, but in this overall community, that's really intoxicating. It fills a lot of holes in your heart. That's that's super helpful. You know, you mentioned that women,, have more of a fluid sexuality, meaning there's attractions. I want to be really careful not to say this kind of orientation change or whatever, go from totally gay to totally straight or vice versa or whatever. That's not what fluidity means. It does mean, you know, changes in attraction or the kinds of persons you're attracted to within maybe a general orientation is at least the people that have done work on this would frame it. And it is, you know,

I read the work of Lisa Diamond years ago, you've probably familiar with her. She kind of pioneered, I mean, there's people before her, but she kind of pioneered this work on sexual fluidity within females. I mean, she did this 10-year longitudinal study where she followed the lives of 100 women who did not identify as straight. Some might have identified as lesbian, some bisexual, some just no identity, but just I know I'm not fully straight. And over the 10-year period, I mean, you know this, I'm speaking to the. And over the 10 year period, I mean, you know this, I'm speaking to the choir here, but for my audience,

it was really, she, and she's a lesbian, not a bisexual, just full on lesbian, you know, like that, you know,

so she would say, I don't really have a fluid. I don't experience much fluidity in my sexuality. I've only been exclusively attracted to women, but she was kind of blown away that over a period of 10 years, how many shifts and changes in sexual relationships exploration attraction um identities i think it was something like less than five percent of the women identified the same exact way over a period of 10 years like every time she'd check in every every two years um somebody was like you know lesbian lesbian

then all of a sudden, I think I'm bisexual, because I had a one night stand with a dude and I liked it. So and then, you know, then had a bad experience about, you know, but just a lot of shifts and changes. There's a long way for me to ask you. You know, here I am a guy looking on for the outside trying to study the research on, you know, female sexuality. When you I guess when you started studying that, did that make sense to you as a woman who maybe had similar experiences? And in your counseling, do you, do you see that also with, with women as well? Like, have you seen that verified anecdotally? I guess is my question. Yes, absolutely. Well, I'll say, first of all, you had Lisa Diamond on

this podcast a while ago, and I totally had a fangirl moment because yes, I mean, I've read so much of her research and she's just such a pioneer and, you know, understanding female sexuality. And so absolutely when I read some of her research and ancillary research that's related, it was cathartic in a way to say, oh, there's some words to what I have had such a difficult time explaining to other people about my own sexuality. Because yeah, I experienced attraction toward women, but I also feel some attraction toward my husband. I don't know how it compares to the attraction that heterosexually attracted women feel to their husbands. But I do feel some attraction to my husband.

Now, I have known my husband since I was five years old, and I never not once felt attracted to him until we were well into our dating relationship and had established this deep emotional bond. So I think for me and a lot of women that I've worked with, this sexual, romantic, physical attraction is often fueled by this emotional connection and emotional safety. And so, yeah, I've seen that a lot in the counseling that I do with women. In fact, a question that I get a lot in counseling from women who are trying to figure out their own sexuality is, am I same-sex attracted? Right? That sounds so funny, but they don't know. And I think it's because of this fluidity that exists, especially, I think it exists for men as well, but it exists more so for women where, you know, they can experience attraction toward another woman,

but they can also experience attraction toward men. I think also for me and a lot of people I've worked with that attraction, I call it emotional traction. It's usually born from something like admiration or jealousy, right? Is what I've seen when I work with people is that, oh, I really liked this aspect of her. I want to be like that. with people is that, oh, I really like this aspect of her. I want to be like that. That's, yeah. When I talk to other girls, you know, I don't just go around talking to people in the street. Hey, tell me what's your sexuality. But, you know, over the years and the work that I do, you know, you hear stories and stories and stories, you know, and some females that have very similar stories as you do and would describe their own sexuality in a similar way, you know, they would describe, you know, attraction being,

being this complex kind of hard to define non airtight category, you know, sexual attraction, you have emotional attraction, you have maybe romantic attraction. That's not necessarily sexual or you mentioned, and this is something that I've heard from several people, almost like, you know, this admiration or jealousy, and especially as a teenage girl going through puberty, which is – it's hard. I mean guys go through puberty and it's tough. But I've got three daughters and again, talking to many women in this area and going through puberty can be – I don't like to use the word traumatic loosely.

But it can be small T to ride. It can be really difficult. So many levels going through a period and your body's developing and it's uncomfortable. And people all of a sudden now you get the male gaze and that makes you feel. So all that to say, especially for post-pubescent females going through puberty, have gone through puberty, there can be this almost admiration, this spark of like emotional, like, oh, you know, you're in the locker room and you see a girl to grab a shirt and like, wow, her boobs look better than mine or I wish. And then you feel this emotionally positive response. And especially in our culture today, you can be trained to interpret that just through

the sexual lens. Well, if you feel any kind of positive response from somebody of the same sex through their sexual body, then, wow, you must be a lesbian or at least bisexual or something. And, you know, the identity labels start flying at you is what I'm describing. So I'm looking out from the outside here is a way I'm describing that. And I'm just kind of really is that would you would you say, yeah, that's the common experience? And my kind of follow-up question is, how do you feel about the kind of, like, pressure that so many young people feel to find their, who are you sexually, find your sexual identity when it can be such a complex experience? Yeah, I think, you know, so much of what we do and what we talk about is muddled by, right? It's where the way we were created to exist in Eden and the distortions that exist outside

of Eden coincide, right? So I think that what's right, what I can validate for young people, especially young women going through puberty, especially, is you desperate, right? What's happening in our brains during puberty is we're pushing away from our parents so that we don't have to be reliant on them forever, right? We're separating from our parents. We're developing our own identity, morals, values, beliefs. That is a good thing. It's a scary, tumultuous thing in homes for teenagers and especially their parents. But it's a good thing because one day your children will need to survive

without you, right? And so it's a good thing to separate, but that's really scary for children as well to kind of feel like, okay, I got to figure out who I am. And so what I have found for young people is that they are desperate. I remember feeling this. I was desperate to piece together my identity and my sexual identity was a big part of that, but it was this overall identity. And so when I said about Eden, I think if we were rooted in the truth of Eden, but it was this overall identity. And so when I said about Eden, I think if we were rooted in the truth of Eden, if we lived in a world that was congruent with how we were created, we would get all of our identity and worth and value and belonging from God, from our identity in Him. But because we don't live in Eden and our brains aren't formed enough to fully

understand all of the distortions that exist in not living in Eden. As teenagers, we just don't have the wherewithal to say, oh, I know my identity exists completely, fully, 100% in God. And all of these earthly identifiers are things that I can engage in or not, that I can enjoy or not, but it doesn't have to make up the core of who I am. And so that's what I felt growing up is, who am I? I remember being in class thinking, I am so-and-so's daughter. I am so-and-so's friend. I'm a fan of this band, right? Or these brand of jeans. And so all of those things made up who I was. That was so exhausting, especially when I wasn't friends with someone all of a sudden. And then I had to re-piece together my identity. And it was sort of from that desperation of who am I, where do I belong, that I overly fused with some friends and we had this emotionally

enmeshed, idolatrous relationship. And that's what I see for a lot of young people now as well, they're pulling away from their parents, they don't have the wherewithal to turn to God for their identity just yet. So they're turning to their peers, which is good and natural in some sense, but they're overly fusing with their peers because they don't have healthy connections elsewhere. And, you know, it's blurring the lines, emotional boundaries and physical boundaries are starting to blur and then it turns into a sexual relationship. Do you see that happening more often now than 10 years ago? No. Oh, you would say that's always been the case? Well, no, actually, I would say I saw that happening more about 10 years ago.

What I see happening more now is it's more gender related, right? If you are attracted to women, you must be a man. So you need to identify as trans, right? Like now there, you don't see many lesbians anymore or people who are bisexual. You just see it more manifested in their gender identity. Wow. Um, I, I anecdotally, I definitely see that for, um, yeah. And I know it's, it's what used to, I mean, for some, in some circles it's politically incorrect to say, I think now the overwhelming majority kind of acknowledge it, whether they say it out loud or not, that there is some social influence at work here. You know, when I go speak in Seattle and, you know, every other Christian parent I talk to has three or four kids that identify as, you know, again, yeah, not lesbian. Usually it's a different gender identity or some fluid category, pansexual, you know, maybe bisexual, bisexual,

bisexual is a little old school. Pansexual is kind of what younger people are more prone to identify. And then when, you know, you know, I get questions from the youth group, like, Hey, it's almost like, how can we reach the straight kids? Because it's like the overall majority they're in there in the youth youth group you know you know identify and it's like okay what's you know seattle area is very progressive environment you know um then when i go to like kansas or something it's like it's kind of the opposite you know like there still is this profound

shame and in the culture and in the church you know surrounding um you know, being LGBTQ plus, whatever. So you can't, I don't know. It seems fairly obvious that social influence is at work on some level. Does that mean, you know, the environment's making people get it? No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying being a teenager is, like you said, we're we're grasping for you know to discover who we are and in certain environments when identifying as lgbtq elevates your social status or gets you into a community a friend group a a community community group sounds like a you know church

group or something but like when it when it gives you access to a a community there could be social factors at work there first of all is that making sense would you would you say yes that's true and how do you how do you talk about this without making it sound like society is making people gay or something because i think that that would be swinging the pendulum way too far in the other direction i think i just try to validate what i can right like oh you want a place to belong. That makes sense. You were created to belong somewhere. You were right. You think you find so much belonging in the LGBTQ community or in your family or in your friend group. And that belonging is great. I'm sure that fills so many needs for you. But let me tell you about a place where you can belong that fulfills that hole in your heart

completely. Right. So I think, I think so many people, right, we want to turn it into the, in us versus them. They're ridiculous because they go and look for their identity and fulfillment in the LGBTQ community or their sexual or gender identity or, or wherever else. And I think in us as Christians instead need to say that makes so much sense because you live in a distorted fallen world, in a fallen being, and you're looking for the source, you know, to make sense of all of this stuff. And so we need to validate that, but then we need to point them lovingly toward, you know, the truth, the source of where they can find that identity. That's good. That's good. Oh, this is a good kind of setup for the main thing I want to talk to you about, uh, parents with LGBT kids. So, okay. So here's a scenario that I'm sure you've encountered, uh, many, many times. And I have to, you know,

a parent comes to you and says, uh, my daughter is 14 years old, just came home and told me she's non-binary or pansexual. Um, what is your initial piece? And the parent's like, what do I do? What are some big picture kind of one-on-one, like without even knowing any more details, some really important things you want to tell this parent? Yeah. So first I would say never, ever, ever give any boundaries or direction in that moment. Right. So the first thing that you want to do is validate the emotional experience that your child is having and thank them for trusting you with this very tender piece of information, right? Then you want to set up a temporal boundary and say, look, this is too important for me,

for us to discuss it right now, because I need time to process. You're going to need time to think through. Let's, and I would give yourself enough time to really process through every time. So let's meet up next week, the end of next week, and we'll talk through what this means, what you're looking from me out of this, right? Like what kind of boundaries you're looking for in our home. But just immediately start with an expression of love, validation, and gratitude that they would trust you with this. And then that parent needs to take that week or however long and grieve because grief and

shame is always a part of at least what I see when I work with parents of LGBTQ kids. There's a lot of fear and it comes out in anger or despondence. There's a lot of grief. This isn't what I envisioned for my child. And then we start spiraling, right? Like I'm not going to be able to walk my daughter down the aisle. I'm not going to be able to prepare her for her wedding night with her husband. Like all these things, all these expectations that we had, we're mourning them even in that moment. And it's so muddled with fear

that we can't communicate with our kids in that state. So we need to take that time, run to God, run to our support system, get advice, grieve. And then I would, you know, if you're married, talk to your spouse and figure out, okay, what do we need to do with this? What are some boundaries we need to have around this in our home for our child? You need to take into consideration their age, their maturity level. But I think the number one thing parents need to consider is their conscience. So often I meet with parents and they don't seek a clear conscience before God in this. What they're considering is how will my child react? Because usually the child is not coming to them with, hey, can I start dating girls?

Or can I start identifying as a different gender? No, they're coming at them with demands. Your child has had a lot longer to process through this than they've given you. And so they're coming at you with, you know, demands. And so the parents, a lot of times just kind of react in that fear and that shame and that guilt and grief. And so you need to build in that time process through what are your boundaries and then communicate it to your child lovingly, but clearly, right? Like, and I think it's not just a yes and a no, right? For example, no, we can't let you wear a binder, but we can allow you to wear some, we can buy you some more sweatshirts if you're feeling uncomfortable with your breasts,

right? So like you can meet your child where they're at, get to that underlying desire, that underlying hope for them and whatever the request is while still upholding boundaries so that you can maintain a clear conscience. And then finally, I would say reevaluate those boundaries regularly because your conscience will morph and change over this. You might not be able to call them by their preferred gender pronoun in the beginning, but six months down the road, once you've processed through this a little bit, you might be able to and still maintain a clear conscience. So re-evaluate those regularly. And I would, I always encourage parents to build in regular times of what I call intentional connection with your child.

You know, once a week, go have coffee with them or whatever and talk about life, talk about difficult things in their life, have fun together, but also make a point to check in about their LGBTQ identity. What's happening? What new requests do you have? What do you want me to understand? Things like that. How do you so that's super helpful. And I would, yeah, I would affirm all that in my non-expert anecdotal experience. The biggest tension for me that I see in parents, and I would very much feel the same way, is the balance between being very gracious and listening and kind of like, I would say, meeting their demands, maybe accommodating to some of their demands versus as you know, some people might say parenting your, your kid, you know, like, um, meaning like, no, you're still, especially younger kids. There might be like 10, 12, 13, 14, maybe even, um, how do you, how do you, how do you navigate that? Like,

is there a place for, is it an age thing? Like, you know, I, so one advice, one of your thoughts that I give is like, you know, how you respond to a 10 year old might be different than how you respond to an 18 year old. You know, if my 10 year old came home and said, you need to call me by different pronouns or whatever, I might respond differently than if my 18 year old did, because 10 year old is just my, my parenting relationship with that child is different at a different stage

than it would be as somebody that's on the brink of adulthood. What are your thoughts on that? You're navigating that, conceding to the kid's demands or requests, maybe might be a better way to put it, versus exerting, maybe a little strong, exercising your parental authority to say, no, I'm not going to do this. You know, does that make sense? I know it's kind of a big question, but it's just, it's such a tough tension.

I think so. Yeah, absolutely. It is a tough tension. I so often write Christian parents of LGBTQ kids come to me and say, they feel stuck between this false dichotomy. I have to choose between either loving my child or remaining compliant with my faith. And I don't think that's true. I think you can do both. You absolutely can wholeheartedly love your child, seek to understand their experience. I would ask questions. That's a great way to build connection with your child. Ask open-ended questions, right? That kind of draws out their story. What would identifying as a different gender mean to you, right? What does

that, and ask clarifying questions too. What does that mean to you, right? And ask clarifying questions too. What does that mean to you, right? What do you mean by that? And again, you want to approach it not from that place of fear and grief, but from this genuine desire to want to know your child and their experience. Now, knowing them and understanding them does not have to inherently change your boundaries, right? I think we see that with how God parents us. He wants to know us, even when we're in the depths, when we're in the muck and mire, when we're in our own sin. He still wants to understand. He still has tremendous compassion for how we got there. It never changes His expectations for us or His boundaries. I think

we can embody that same expectation for our own kids and say, I want to understand, I want to know you, and I want you to know me. And I think that actually is really what our kids are after, especially in their teenage years, is they don't know how to say this, or they can't even contextualize this, but they just want to be connected, especially with you, the parent, and with their peers. And genuine connection doesn't happen from just acquiescing to their demands out of fear of how they will respond, right? Genuine connection comes from, I wrestled through, this is what my conscience will allow. I'm communicating it lovingly and clearly to you while also trying to understand your experience. And so trying to find what I like to call that

messy middle space of existing in unconditional love, but also upholding your own personal righteousness. That's good. That's good. Let me give you two, there's two different scenarios, same scenario, different ages. Okay. So parent, 10 year old kid comes home and says, mom, dad, I'm not non-binary and you need to call me by they, them pronouns. So 10-year-old kid, same scenario, 18-year-old kid. How would you respond? What would be your counsel to each set of parents there in those different situations? Yeah. Well, I think autonomy is sort of the spectrum, right? So it's not this light switch that we turn on and off. As soon

as you hit 17 or whatever, you're fully autonomous, right? So yeah, I think a lot of parents ask that, well, when is it okay for my children not to have the same values that I have? I don't think there's a blanket answer to that. I think we have to kind of consider our children's maturity level, their age, our own family values, and our own conscience. That needs to be sort of the primary indicator there. But yeah, for the 10-year-old, the family with a 10-year-old, maybe that family decides, well, I wouldn't tell them what they should do. I would ask them, well, what does your conscience allow, right? What do you feel like your boundaries should be in that? And I would assume most parents of 10-year-olds would say, well, we don't feel comfortable with that. He or she is only 10 years old. We're not okay

with that. And so probably they might say something to that child like, sweetie, we love you. We get it. We want to understand further. We're going to set up built-in times every week for us to talk about all parts of life, but especially this. We're going to check in about this weekly so we can better understand you and you can better understand where we're coming from. But as of now, we think you're too young to make this decision for yourself and you still need to abide by our family boundary of remaining within the gender that God created you to be. Now with an 18-year-old, that's going to be really different. Again, I would ask the parents, where does your conscience allow? What do you feel like your boundaries should be on this?

And probably a lot of them would say, well, we don't like it, but they're 18 and we don't really have any power here. So if those are the guidelines with what they're working within, then a parent can decide, well, can I call my child by their preferred gender pronoun? Or can I, you know, refer to them as a different name or whatever the request is? And not, are they allowed to do that, right? Like they're legally an adult now, they're allowed to do it. You just have to determine, is your conscience okay with doing that with them?

And if not, there's a way to lovingly express that to them. parents don't acquiesce to the demands of the kid that that breaks off the relationship because i think that's the fear on the one side with parents that think gosh if i if i kind of parent if i you know don't acquiesce it's just gonna they're just gonna ruin the relationship have you found that to be true or i guess it probably depends on the overall relationship as a whole but um yeah for sure it depends on the relationship and a lot whole. For sure, it depends on the relationship. And a lot of that happened before these parents came to see me in therapy or counseling. Right. So but I think it's not so much not acquiescing to the request. I think it's more so how parents go about that, how they communicate that.

Right. If they're communicating that from this place of fear and shame and guilt and grief, then of course that's going to break connection with their child. But if they've really done the work, if they've wrestled through, they've stood before God, they've gotten advice, right? They've enacted their support, all these things that can lead to a good, healthy, clear conscience decision. And they've communicated that clearly, effectively, and lovingly to their child. It's not to say that their child won't like it,

right? Of course their child is going to be upset, but I think it's actually has the potential to lead to a lot deeper connection between parent and child if the parent goes about it in that way, in a way that seeks to understand and love unconditionally, but still uphold their own boundaries. Because if they don't, what I see so often is that parents acquiesce out of that fear and then they end up presenting their child a few months or years later because they don't, what I see so often is that parents acquiesce out of that fear. And then they end up presenting their child a few months or years later because they're like, they made me do this. I never wanted to call them by that in the first place. And then it just kind of festers.

And that leads to so much disconnection. I think it's a lot harder. It takes a lot more time and wrestling. But if we do it on the front end and kind of work through that initial emotional piece, then we can communicate effectively, clearly, and have that deep connection that we want with them and that they want with us. Yeah, that's helpful. I've seen in some cases where even acquiescing can backfire down the road, you know, with a child, say at 12 years old, they identified as bisexual or lesbian or something, or it was maybe a different gender. It gets more intense with the different genders. So maybe they just identified as the opposite sex. And then five, six, seven years later, they don't identify that way anymore. large enough sample size to make a definitive claim here but i've seen some cases with a child once they grew up and not grow up you know but like they actually got older you know and more

mature they kind of looked back and said mom dad why did you why'd you let me do that like why don't you you know i was 12 years old like i don't come you know i didn't know what i was talking about i just heard it from some friends and did it and you just kind of went along with everything i was saying and i i needed to be parented, you know? Have you seen that to be, have you seen that happen? Again, I'm going on just a couple of different stories I'm thinking. So that might be a very minority instance, but. And I think I see that more in this generation, right?

This generation of parents with parents that currently have teens than I have before, right? Like when I was growing up, when I was a teenager, I said some things I was really vehement about, but have since, you know, come into sharper focus. Like I had two much younger, well, I have three younger brothers, two much younger, 12 years, 14 years difference. And so I got to see all of the upheaval that children bring to home without understanding the joys of it because of my unformed brain at the time. And so I remember like definitively declaring, I will never have kids. And my parents were like, okay, we'll see how you feel in a few years, right? Like, let's let it settle out. You're a teenager. We all believe things so strongly when we're teenagers and when we're older, it comes into clear focus.

But now, right, that was a truth, a reality when I grew up. And I think even until very recently in our history, now I see a lot of parents that really believe, right, that was a truth, a reality when I grew up. And I think even until very recently in our history, now I see a lot of parents that really believe, right, if their child, even at 12, 14 years old, says, I am this, and it has implications for the rest of my life, there isn't that reality that they're reminded of in that moment that, wait a minute, their brains are unformed. They don't perfectly understand themselves, God, the world around them. This might come into sharper focus, or this might morph and change over the years. I think parents forget that a lot of times when their child comes out to them. I think maybe in that fear,

they forget that reality. Yeah, that's helpful. Well, I'm curious, what's the most common question you get from Christian parents of LGBT kids? Do you have like one that often comes up? Yeah. I mean, it's usually help. What do I do? You know, but I think really their question, not in so many words usually is how do I love them, but still remain faithful to God. And so again, right. That bringing up that messy middle, that's kind of the work we do together is how do

you stay in that messy middle space? It's messy for a reason. It's going to require some deep inner heart work and some, you know, communication tactics that might not be natural to you. But yeah, it's possible to be in that messy middle and do both, honor your personal faith, but also honor and respect your child. Hey friends, the Exiles in Babylon conference is right around the corner, April 18th through the 20th in Boise, Idaho. All the information is at theologyintherod.com. If you do want to attend

live, and I would highly recommend if you can afford it, if you have the time to come out to Boise, Idaho, attend the conference live. Space is filling up, so you want to register ASAP. We are tackling loads of really important and very controversial topics. We're talking about deconstruction and the gospel. We're going to hear from people who have had a journey of deconstruction. Tell us why they did so. We're going to hear from women, talking about women, power, and abuse in the church. We're going to talk about LGBTQ people and the church.

We're talking about different Christian views of politics. That should be loads of fun, if not really intense. And we just added a very important pre-conference symposium on the theology and politics of Israel-Palestine. And we're going to have different viewpoints represented. Various discussions are going to be engaged in with that really important conversation. So come to Boise you can ask questions you can engage the speakers engage other people who are at the conference it is loads of fun it really is I would say the highlight of my year so again April 18th to the 20th Boise Idaho check out all the information at theologyintheron.com

do you get parents that they want to tell their kid, maybe they have told their kid, like, oh, you'll grow out of this. Mom, dad, you know, 13-year-old kid, I'm non-binary. And maybe they will, you know, but like do parents want to jump in and roll their eyes and say like, you know, come back in a few years and see if you still identify. Do that kind of snarky cynicism that they usually absorb from kind of like whatever political news channel they're listening to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do see. I see like kind of like whatever political news channel they're listening to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do see. I see like kind of two extremes.

I either see parents who bury their head in the sand and they're like, whatever, it'll all blow over. They'll grow out of it. Right. Like in their own fear, they don't want to address this. And so they just kind of ignore it. And of course, it usually gets to this point where they can't ignore it anymore. Or parents sort of invalidate their child by saying, oh, come on, don't bother me with that. You'll grow out of it. I don't think either one of those

are great responses. I think we need to kind of contend with the reality that this could be, you know, our child's experience ongoingly. And we need to kind of surrender to that, grieve that initially, like we need to get our heart into that place as parents. of surrender to that, grieve that initially, like we need to get our heart into that place as parents. But I think we also need to keep the truth in mind that they are teenagers and their brains aren't fully formed. And there's a lot of things happening chemically in their brain right now that this could change in the future. So again, like holding that tension in that balance of they could grow out of this, if that's the terminology you want to use. I would never say that to your child, right? But if that's what you want to think of it as, that this could not be a

reality for them forever. But also, I need to kind of do that surrender work now so that if it is a reality for them, ongoingly, I'm not blindsided by having to process through this later down the road. It gets tricky. Like when I talk to parents, sometimes I'll tell them things that I'm like, you know, I'll help explain maybe the situation a little bit. And then I'll say, but don't tell your kid that, you know, like, I mean, just statistically, and yeah, the phrase grow out of it is probably something, you know, statistically, there's a, you know, massive increase in younger people especially females um having a different gender or sexual identity statistically is not going to stay with them for the a large majority

for the whole life you know so i but it's a tricky dance because yeah i don't want to give parents false assurance because for some it does you know like 12 years old mom dad i'm a lesbian and when they're 82 they're gonna have, they're going to have grandma and grandma. But not if you take how many teenagers, especially females, are identifying as something other than straight, whatever, female. It's really hard. Harder than it's ever been. And just a decent percentage will not identify the same way. How do you not give parents false assurance while helping them to not freak out?

Yeah, I totally get that. And I think upholding that tension, right, illuminating that tension, that balanced tension for them is sometimes really relieving even for parents. I had a parent of a probably 10 year old come once and she was like, my son, he's starting to wear women's clothing. He wants to wear my clothes. He's becoming more and more, you know, identifying more with like a feminine expression. And she was like, oh my gosh, what do I do? Everybody keeps telling me he'll grow out of it, but I feel really nervous. And I said, well, he might grow out of it, but he might not. And she was like, I feel so relieved that you just said that to even acknowledge that this might be a reality for him ongoing. Right. And so I think we need,

like, we have to contend with that possibility that this could go on, but also it statistically right. Probability it, it won't, especially if they're of a certain age and if they're females, especially. Right. So I think just being honest about that tension, but either way, the intervention that I always offer is turning your what ifs to even ifs, right? So instead of what if they don't grow out of this? What if I don't get to walk her down the aisle? What if that? What if this? All those fear-based questions. Even if this is a reality for my child forever, what is still true? I love them. They love me. God loves them. God loves me, right? We're going to figure this out. We've been through worse. I can still

love them and remain rooted in my faith, right? Like taking the focus off of the unknown and focusing on the known usually helps parents feel much more rooted, even in the tension of that uncertainty of will this go on forever or not? That's super helpful. So you, so that's, that's interesting. Even, even telling the parent, you know, that, you know, might grow out of it might not let's cultivate a healthy posture to respond whether it does or doesn't, you know? And even if they, even if they don't identify the same way down the road, I think they will remember the kindness and curiosity demonstrated early on when they

did identify, you know, even if, even if it's not full affirmation, your daughter identifies as a boy and you're like, okay, you're a boy, you are a boy, you know? But saying, wow, tell me about like showing that genuine curiosity. I think, you know, it's the old adage, you know, kids don't remember what you tell them, but they will remember how you made them feel. I think that applies really well in these kind of situations. Yeah. Like what's the most common mistake that parents make?

And I hesitate even asking it that way because my goal is absolutely not to shame parents, make them feel worse than sometimes they often do. They often heap guilt on themselves like they did something wrong. But what is the most common mistake? heap guilt on themselves, like they did something wrong. But what is the most common mistake? And then my follow-up question is, have you seen people rectify that? Because oftentimes they learn they made a mistake years after, and they're like, ah, I screwed things up. But is there a chance to rectify that down the road? Yeah. Well, I think probably the biggest mistakes that I see are either shaming your child, right? And sort of invalidating them in that shame. No, that's not true. How dare you? That's not what we believe. We're Christians, right? All those kinds

of proclamations. Or acquiescing out of fear, right? Those are the two big mistakes that I see parents make, and it never goes well when a parent does either one of those things. Can you overcome them? Absolutely. Yeah. You can't take away that hurt from shaming them or from not protecting them and parenting them effectively by upholding godly boundaries. Like you can't take that away. So I think I say that because that's what all, right, I'm a marriage and family therapist. We learn about this in systems therapy, systems theory, is that children, they want to vie for control, but really they want to know, be assured that they that children, they want to vie for control, but really they want to know, be assured that they're safe, that they're protected under your control, right? Under your

authority as a loving parent, right? So I think even as teenagers, they're going to vie for that control. They don't even have the wherewithal to say, but I really want to know, are you going to parent me effectively with healthy boundaries while still loving me unconditionally? But I think we can always apologize, right? Whether we acquiesced and we didn't consult our conscience and have good, healthy boundaries, we can come back later and say, I realize now what I've done and how insecure that must've made you feel in my love and my protection. And I'm so sorry, or I invalidated and shamed you. And I'm so sorry. I've heard that. Didn't you said that? I've heard that. And I, it's, so this is verified that the kids deep down, even if they're being rebellious

and assertive and autonomous, they want their autonomy, that deep down, they actually want to be parented. They want those boundaries. They, they want parents to say no to certain things. Is that, that's been, is that pretty established psychologically? I don't want to collapse every kid in the same category, but, you know, there's diversity in general. I think it's impossible to know what children want in that time in their life because a child will never be able to tell us in that moment of their life. I really want mom and dad to punish me or, you know, to discipline me, right?

Like no one's ever going to say that. But we have seen statistically, right, it has been verified therapeutically, clinically, that a home is much healthier and happier when parents have the control and the authority in the home. And, right, we're not going for like an authoritarian, like where we're dictating the children and they have no autonomy and control is also a need that children have. They must have autonomy and control. Now, that's going to grow and morph as they get older and older. They're going to get more and more freedoms in their home. But parents need to be the ones in control, and children need to feel the safety of that. I – yeah, again, anecdotally, I see that in my own kids. You know, when they, it seems like they want their independence and my kids definitely love that. You know, they're very driven and they like independence.

But yeah, I've seen it over and over that there is a safety they feel when my wife and I do have and uphold boundaries? You know, there are certain things we say, no, you can't do that. No, you can't go there. No, you can't date that person or whatever, you know. I'm curious to your opinion or what advice do you give the parents with some of these kind of like more invasive requests slash demands that the kid might have? You mentioned binders, breast binders, you know, we kind of talked a

little bit about pronouns or, you know, testosterone gets a little more invasive for females, you know, taking cross-sex hormones or dating relationships. Like, you know, what's your advice to parents here? I mean, is it really age? I guess age probably does factor in, you know, if you're a 21 year old says I'm going to get a binder. It's different than if you're a 13 year old wants to get a binder. But do you say, do you tell parents like, hey, these are medically dangerous and don't do it? Or do you let them make that decision? Or yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, of course. I'll never tell a parent what they should or shouldn't do with their child but i will absolutely inform them of proven dangers of whatever their child is requesting right especially things like hormones binders

things like that i think you know like what we were just saying about those boundaries kids feel safer i think we see that with our relationship with god i I mean, Psalm 23 says, your rod and your staff comfort me. A rod and a staff, as I understand it, were instruments of discipline, of boundary to, you know, keep the sheep where they ought to be, right? And so they weren't always used in a comforting manner, but it says those boundary lines comfort me, right? Those instruments of discipline. And so I think we can, as Christian parents, kind of take up that mantle. We're not going to do it perfectly, and we need to sink into the humility of that, that we need help to be the best parents we can be for our kids. We're never going to do it perfectly. We need to be quick to apologize when we do mess up and don't represent God's love

perfectly. But we do need to kind of stand in the gap as God's appointed stewards in our children's lives. I do think we'll have to account for what we did or didn't do to protect our children, to orient their hearts toward God. And, you know, we'll be made to answer for that as God's stewards in our children's life. And so when our child asks sort of this more like, like you said, invasive or, you know, scary request, right, a binder or something like that. I think what we can do is I always encourage parents to find the underlying desire. Usually when we find the underlying desire, we can tie it to something that makes a lot

of sense through the lens of God, right? So for example, I had this mom say, my daughter wants to wear a binder and go on hormones and identify as a male and all this kind of stuff. And when I encouraged her to pull out the story a little bit more, find out more of the story, what she found out is that her daughter got to go to the beach with her older brothers who got to be shirtless on the beach and they were free and, you know, got to enjoy the sun right on their chest. And she didn't like that she was confined by wearing a shirt or a top over her chest. And so when we found out that story, we could say, oh, that makes so much sense. You want to be free, just like your brothers.

Actually, God created you to be free. He created you to have a freedom that goes so far beyond not wearing a shirt at the beach that you would be so much more free than that. But because we live in a fallen world, this is the reality that we live in. And so our family value is that you won't be able to do hormones. You won't be able to wear a binder. But we can talk about what we can do within that realm to make you feel a little bit more comfortable. But most importantly, we can validate your underlying desire to be free and show you how God meets that desire and how you don't need this earthly intervention to fulfill that desire. Yeah, your description of that scenario kind of triggered a thought, something I've seen in other scenarios. Like, it seems, well, yeah, it's a genuine question.

I do have opinions on my own question here, but I'd love your thoughts. Well, yeah, it's a genuine question. I do have opinions on my own question here, but I'd love your thoughts. But with at least some, maybe many younger females who don't want to identify as female any longer, looking on from the outside, it feels like there's some underlying misogyny, internalized misogyny there. And please, I am not 100% not saying that in every case this is true or even many cases. I don't have a statistic here. I do have several stories where this is absolutely true. So it is a thing. But looking out from the outside, yeah. Have you found that there is underlying internalized misogyny that sometimes is underlying this

desire to not want to identify as female anymore? I don't want to reduce it to something so simple as that, but have you found that in your practice to play a role in some cases? Yeah, absolutely. I talk a lot with parents about the dangers of rigid gender stereotypes. And I feel like, you know, in human nature, how we do is, you know, 30 to 50 years ago, we had these rigid gender stereotypes that women are supposed to be quiet and gentle and communicative and men are supposed to be aggressive and good at sports and all those things, right? And now instead of correcting those and finding that middle ground, we've overcorrected and said, there is no gender, you know, just throw off everything, right? There's not even a binary.

But I think actually what happens is, especially young women will say when they are growing up, and they feel maybe the way that I did growing up, I am more like my dad. I like sports. I don't like Barbies. I don't dream about what color napkins will be at my wedding one day, right? dad. I like sports. I don't like Barbies. I don't dream about what color napkins will be at my wedding one day, right? Like all these things you see your peers doing that you don't experience instead of, oh no, I must be a man, which actually reinforces those rigid gender stereotypes and saying, oh, well, if you don't like Barbies and pink, then you must be a man. Something's wrong with you as a woman. I think instead we should say, wait a minute, what's God's expectation of men and women? Yes, there are generalities in how men express themselves and women express themselves. That doesn't mean it's wrong if I don't like dreaming

about my napkin color at my wedding, right? Like I'm not missing a mark that God expects of me. And I think that's really where we need to correct this and empower our young men and women to be who they are. And I think like what you say, right, point their characteristics back to God, instead of these earthly stereotypes of gender. That's really the answer instead of reinforcing those rigid gender stereotypes through, well, I like other women, so I must be a man. Right. It is odd in our day and age, in our post-MeToo era, that there's such sensitivity. I mean, there's such a strong, pervasive feminist spirit,

which I don't say that negatively necessarily. Obviously, there's types of feminism that can get off the rails and are bad, but other types that are just empowering women to be awesome women and realize the power that women have and recognize the full equality between men and women and so on and so forth. I mean, for the last century, women have fought for equality and a higher view of womanhood, it is odd that existing alongside that cultural progress, and again, I say that in a positive way, there's this really almost subtle, really negative woman that exists alongside that. And sometimes you'll see people that they try to affirm both. No, I'm a feminist. And then they'll have this view of gender that's like,

that sounds very patriarchal. Like if a woman is not super feminine, then now you redefine her existence as a woman, rather than acknowledging like, yes, that's part of the expansive, generous view of womanhood that we've been fighting for for a hundred years. I mean, how do you help people see that disconnect? Have you had success in that area? If that, again, if that makes sense, I know my questions are long-winded.

Yeah. Well, I think I don't really meet with a lot of people that experience, I do occasionally, but most of the times teenagers, especially young people who are experiencing this and contending with that, right? Like, Hey, I experienced this, which isn't like most women. So I must be a trans man, right? They don't want to talk to me. They just want to, I'm dealing with the parents, yeah, or the Christians who are trying to, you know, put their identity in God rather than their gender, their sexual orientation. Yeah, okay, yeah. But I think you're right. I see that, right? People, yeah, sort of degrading femininity or womanhood when they're really seeking to stand up for it. And it just doesn't match up. It's very mind boggling.

I'm seeing, I mean, on social media, at least, I'm seeing more and more people recognize it. But social media is such a warped view of reality. So I don't know if, you know, on the ground, if people are kind of recognizing what I would say is an ideological contradiction. And again, in some cases. There was a study done. I cite this in my book, Embodied. It wasn't a peer-reviewed study, so I don't hold it up as authoritative. It was just like an online survey of women, females who experienced gender dysphoria.

And one of the questions was, and it was a survey over like 250 women who experienced gender dysphoria. And one of the questions was, what are some practical things you can do to help mitigate, reduce the dysphoria? And the number one response, I think it was over 80% said, dealing with underlying misogyny. Whether it's in the home or my environment, whatever, there's just profound negative view of womanhood. Maybe it was a dad that just was misogynistic and pounded that into you or mom or parent or maybe some kind of environmental factor but they just have this really negative sense negative view of womanhood and that when they looked down at their body and

saw womanhood you know etched in their you know body um it produced this dysphoric feeling and dealing with this misogyny you know was was was relieving um yeah i wish there was a maybe that maybe there has been a peer-reviewed study done on that since then i just yeah i was gonna say a lot of times i think it's even subtle right we don't have to grow up with this super misogynistic dad i've even i still struggle in my insecurity at my femininity but not in the same way that i once did i think i understand it much more my identity is in god and he created me to be a certain way that images him very specifically, not other women. Right. But even still, I have felt like, wait a minute, you know, I've, I've, for example, gone to churches and spoken and I've gotten off stage

and someone, people have said things like, wow, I don't know if you realize how powerful what you just said was. I'm like, why wouldn't I realize? Like, do you think that I'm just saying stuff with no basis? Like, have I, I haven't done my homework here. Or like one time I got finished with this Q and A, it was like a joint Q and A. And I got off stage and somebody was like, that was great. Don't be insecure. That was great. Don't be insecure. He said like four times. And then we finally got to where we're going. I was like, do I seem insecure to you? Like, am I giving that off? Right. So like, I don't even think all the time it has to be this like really machismo dad or brother or friend, sometimes very sad. It just kind of exists in our culture. I don't think people mean it that way,

but it kind of comes across that way. It is. So I have three daughters and a wife. And so we, wife. We've been having these conversations a lot over the last few years. My eyes have just been so open to the subtle ways in which women are demeaned. My wife and I talked about this a lot. If we're together and we meet somebody, and if somebody has read a book of mine or they know that I'm a public figure or something, oftentimes, not all the time, but oftentimes they barely acknowledge her existence and just talk to me. Or they'll say, and what do you do to my wife? So I mean, and I think I've said this publicly, my wife runs, so the Center for Face, Sexuality, and Gender is the nonprofit that we run. And then Theology of Neurosis becomes kind of its own ministry.

She's like the CEO of both. Like she runs, like she is my boss. Like people don't realize that. Like this conference we put on every, I mean, she is, she runs point on everything. I'm in charge of like, I literally, I mean, I do stuff. I help her into work

but you're the talent she's the manager it's funny all my um you know i i travel and speak quite a bit and um all this has as of like four years ago she makes the decision all that like i haven't she'll hand me a vanilla envelope saying, all right, you're going to Texas next. It was literally like this week I'm going to Texas. And next week you're in South Carolina. There's sometimes when she'll say, hey, do you want to do this? I would say, no. She consults with me most cases.

Some cases she doesn't. She knows enough like, ah, I think this would be really good. And I love it. I really don't like that kind of world of how to agree with this and that and you know what am i so when people turn and you know she's kind of forced to say well you know i i help you know and she's so doesn't need the spotlight so she'll say like well yeah you know i i help you know run run the ministry with preston and people just assume like it's me running it and she then they'll turn right back to me and like ask me questions about running the ministry.

And she's kind of like, cool. But you know, my daughters tell me stories about just being a teenage female. And then this world is much, for as much progress as that has been made with women, there's a long way to go. It's the subtle stuff. You know, the blatant stuff isn't as pervasive.

Am I right with that? I don't want to assume. But the subtle dehumanizing of women is just, yeah, it's all over the place. And sometimes we don't even realize, right? Like women, like I, like even someone saying that to me, I don't know if you realize how great what you just said was. I was like, oh, thanks. And then a few days later, I was like, wait a minute, why wouldn't I realize, you know, like, I think it just kind of, we don't even understand it in the moment until we look back and reflect and we're like, wait a minute. That was kind of, what does that even mean?

You know. You know where it's actually pervasive and it's so bad that it's funny? It's more bad than funny. Is that like theology, like conservative evangelical theology conferences? So like the Evangelical Theological Society Conference? I'm going to get a lot of positive emails from some women on this one but like you know it's pretty it's majority probably complementarian majority or large percentage you know southern baptist more conservative churches represented um it's a it's a broad range but in terms of numbers, it would lean more conservative. And yet, you have these female scholars that write theology textbooks that will show up at this conference and they'll be asked, are you here with your husband?

Oh, no. And the ones I'm thinking of in particular, I won't name them, but I mean, they're so humble that they don't say, no, I actually write the textbooks that your husband read. Every year I'll ask women, tell me your latest story. Just yesterday I was at the booth. It is kind of sad, but the stories you tell me are funny. In this day and age, you just assume that... It's sort of my dream to have a podcast with women that serve in this way, like speak and travel and write.

One, to just learn from them. I'm just sort of emerging into this now, and people who have gone before me, I want to learn. But also, I'm starting to realize how ridiculous it is in some instances. For me, I have no theology training, Bible training, anything like that. Certainly not a scholar. But I do go and speak to churches about LGBTQ topics and sex, sexuality, and gender. And I have my classes.

They're prepackaged. They're ready to go. There are some alterations here and there, depending on the audience and things like that. And so this church hired me to come and speak to their group. And I went and like a few days before I go, they were, we all had this meeting, sort of the meeting of what are you going to say to our people? Are you going to say something we don't like, right? Like where they're just checking to make sure I'm going to say stuff that is in accordance with their beliefs. And everything was all buttoned up. We're about to close up the meeting.

And one lone elder came from out of the woodwork and was like, no, wait a minute, guys. We're complementarian, and she's a woman. And she's going to reference the Bible in her talk on a Saturday afternoon, right? This is not a worship assembly. On a Saturday afternoon, she's going to say the word Bible and reference a few scriptures. And do we feel okay about that? I don't know. And I could tell like, everybody was like, yeah, I don't think it's a problem, but because he was like the, you know, an important elder, but he was like, oh, okay, maybe not. So I had to go there, give half of my talk, step to the side while a man got up and gave my words, my slides on what the Bible

says about gender. I think it was gender. And then he stepped away and I got to finish my talk. And I just remember being like, this is not okay. This is for the birds. I want to quit right now. Yeah, it's not okay. So you do Q&As and you talk really explicit and open about all kinds of things related to sexuality. Do you have a memorable question, the most off-the-wall question or something that was like, I can't believe that you asked that question. I do, but I don't know why. I don't know why it hit me so much.

But someone once asked in a very conservative Christian context, so you were the butch one, right? In your relationship. And I just, I was like, I felt endeared somewhat. Cause I was like, thank you for feeling safe enough to ask me that. But also like, I'm a little surprised that you would ask that. Right. So I, were you wearing like a biker jacket or something? Did you have your head shaved? No, I don't know what, but I will say I, my, um, former lesbian card does get me out of some uncomfortable situations. Sometimes when I do go speak, like especially, uh, women's dress shoes are the worst things ever invented, right? They're so uncomfortable. I have like foot problems. So at one time, at one point I was like,

Oh no, I'm going to wear tennis shoes. They're going to think I'm unprofessional and being disrespectful. And then I thought, wait a minute, I'm a former lesbian. They'll probably just be like, Oh yeah, former lesbian that tracks. Right. So that I can appreciate. So you don't identify that way anymore, but would say you still experience same-sex attraction. And is there, um, what are your thoughts on identity identities? I guess, is that just kind of for you? You don't feel like that fits or do you have are your thoughts on identities, I guess? Is that just kind of for you? You don't feel like that fits? Or do you have a stronger opinion on people, Christians who identify as gay or lesbian?

Yeah, I know. I mean, I think what's most important is that if you're going to live your life for God, that you live within the boundaries that he set for your sexual expression and your gender expression, right? So however you identify, whatever word you use, I don't have a problem with. For me, I use, I'm a same-sex attracted Christian because it correctly, you know, explains what I experience, but it doesn't put, for me, right, doesn't put my identity as experiencing those attractions before my identity in Christ. So, but I think there are people out

there, especially younger people, who can say with a clear conscience, I'm a gay Christian, and they mean the same thing that I mean. So I don't want to get into this argument about words. Yeah, that's exactly where I'm at. People, I think, wrongly assume that I'm pro-identifying as gay or lesbian for traditional Christians. I'm like, I never advocate for it. I just don't police it. You know, somebody uses the term gay as a virtual synonym for what you just said, same sex attracted. That's what gay means really. So, I mean, but, but I totally, I think it depends on where people come from, their,

their past. I know a lot of people that came out of a, you know, a community or a lifestyle or whatever that, that wasn't very Christian at all. Oftentimes that identity marker is too wrapped up into a way of living that they see as incompatible with Christ now. So like, I guess I'm going to, you very much your story. Whereas other people that maybe didn't have that journey, there's less baggage with the term gay and lesbian you know and i think a generation it's different i mean my older quote-unquote gay friends um have more of a problem with it and younger people less of a problem it seems like so anyway i mean somebody outside looking on like i

don't if i i mean only if i felt like it was interrupting someone's discipleship journey and i had a close enough relationship with them, then I might suggest, you know, maybe this label is actually, yeah, it's creating more hurdles for your discipleship than it ought. Yeah. I think for a lot of people, it can be sort of like on the lines of idolatry, right? This is more of who I am, more of my identity than God. And that's when it can become problematic.

I don't think the word itself is problematic. And that's it with any identity, being American or your political affiliation. I've seen people, years ago, I remember meeting a lady and right after she told me her name, she says, and I'm a homeschool mom. And I'm like, really? That's the next piece of your life that you felt like, and you know, like,

yeah, that was a huge part of her identity. You know what I'm like? I think that's problematic. You know, like I'm all for homeschooling. What? Okay.

Last question. What, um, what would you tell a parent who maybe made a lot of mistakes, um, with their LGBT kid early on, and now their kid is grown up, maybe out of their house, and maybe their relationship is just fragile, if it's even there.

What advice do you give that parent? Maybe they're living with a lot of shame, guilt. Maybe deep down they would love to repair the relationship, but they feel like it's just so far gone that it's impossible. Well, I would say repent. If you need to repair the relationship, but they feel like it's just so far gone that it's impossible. Well, I would say repent if you need to repent, right? Like repent before God. If you need to go back and relook at some of the things that happened or that you said, or that you didn't say or do that you should have, taking care of that with God first is going to be a great way to get your heart in the place that it needs to be in order to interact effectively with your child and ask for their

forgiveness, right? So first contend with God and your repentance before him. And then I would say, I had this client once who said something about her child, like we were talking about the prodigal son and the prodigal father. And she said, I just need to wait well. And I thought like, that's so profound that sometimes as, especially when our children are older and we've messed a lot of stuff up, I think there's some use in going back and seeing where we need to repent, where we need to have a better perspective, where we need to correct some distortions. But then there's also great use in saying, but I'm imperfect and I'm expected. I don't know how to be a perfect parent.

I never knew how to be a perfect parent. And I can sink into the humility of that and say, I'm so sorry for all the areas that I fell short. I never wanted to hurt you. Will you forgive me? But if our child is not responding to us in the way that we want them to, especially if they're an adult, I think we need to respect that for now and just wait well and figure out ways that we can express our love while not encroaching on their autonomy and annoying them, exasperating them. And you mentioned it earlier, but just the power of apologizing, even if it's 20 years later, like I'm not saying that will repair the relationship, but I've seen stories of, of parents. Um, they'll go back years later and just say, man, I,

I've learned a lot and I, I just did not parent you well. And I'm truly sorry about that. And I've seen, I have seen relationships be restored really in amazing ways. Even if there's obvious differences that still exist. Oh yeah. One more question that, and this is the one that I just don't think I have a great answer to. It's the parent that has a kid. I'm thinking of a few people I know in particular and talking to many other people that I just meet at conferences and stuff, but you know, they have that kid that is demanding 100% agreement, affirmation, even belief, not, you know, call me by my pronouns and name or else I'm gone, but you need to also believe everything I believe about who I am. And anything short of that, they're just like, those are the demands. If you can't meet that, then I am gone. It's so scary. I, it's just like, man,

I, I, first of all, I feel sad for the kid because that's just not, that's not reality. You can't just go through life and expect and surround yourself with only people that a hundred percent agree with. Like, only people that 100 agree with like that's just you're that's a that's a miserable life waiting ahead for the kid and i want to tell them that but i you know what's that gonna you know that's not gonna get through i don't think but what do you what do you tell that parent that has a kid that's just like 100 their kid is 100 agreement otherwise we're i'm gone you're a toxic parent if you don't 100% affirm everything

I believe about myself. Yeah. Well, I think in the same way that you would respond to most requests, even though this one is a little bit more vehement, thank them for trusting you with this information, validate their emotional experience that they're going through. But I think sort of the overarching response, the heart level response is, I love you too much to lie to you or to not be authentic in what I'm feeling about this, right? Like we as parents don't need to put our feelings above our children's feelings. In fact, we need to process through our feelings with God and with other people besides our children so that when we come to our children, we can say, let me understand your feelings, your experience, and then let me set the boundary for how you're able to move about that in our home, right, since you're under my care.

And so when we don't do that, that's actually very unsafe for our kids. They feel it. We feel it. We feel disconnected from them. So sort of the heart level is I love you too much to not be honest with you. sort of the heart level is, I love you too much to not be honest with you. And my, I have younger kids, but my kind of tagline to them is always, you don't have to like it. You don't have to agree. You don't even have to understand, but you do need to obey and you need to obey respectfully. And I think if our kids are living in our home, that can be our very loving prompt that, you know,

we're not asking that they understand it like we do, that they agree with us or that they like it. We're asking for their obedience and for their respect. And I think we see that with how God parents us too. He doesn't say like obedience, there's not a prerequisite for obedience that we understand him. In fact, he promises we won't understand him or his ways, right? He doesn't say you have to like it. You don't have to agree, but if you love me, you'll obey me. And so that's kind of the fertile ground that we want to root our boundaries in for our kids is love. And we want their expression of love through their obedience and their respect as well. That's good. Yeah. And age does play a factor here too, right? I mean,

you're going to concede much less to a 12 year old than a 22 year old that's already out of the house doing their own thing. And, you know, um, you would say no to like, you know, testosterone to your 15 year old kid. Um, but your 25 year old kid, it's like, you don't have that same parental authority more. So there's certain hills you might not, you know, want to die on. Ellen, I've taken you more than an hour. I can't thank you enough for sharing your wisdom with us. I don't know how much I owe you for this free hour long session. I'll build the boss, your wife. Yeah, yeah. Build the boss. Thanks so much for the work you're doing. And again,

I highly encourage people to check out the links that you gave earlier. And we hopefully will put them in the show notes if I remember. Thanks for being on The Algebra. Thanks so much for having me, Preston. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.