Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep3: Diversity of Trans* Part 3: From Female to Male and Back to Female

Episode Date: January 28, 2021

In this third part of our series “Diversity of Trans*,” I sit down with my good friend Kyla Gillespie. Kyla is female, transitioned to male 10 years ago, then back to female 4 years ago. She tells her story in this episode and discusses why she transitioned in the first place, the results of that transition, her encounter with Jesus in 2017, her decision to detransition back to her birth sex, and her ongoing journey in the gospel.  Pre-order my book Embodied: Transgender Identities, the Church, and What the Bible Has to Say from this website to recieve pre-order incentives: https://davidccook.org/books-preston-sprinkle-embodied/ Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Theology in the Raw podcast slash YouTube channel. And this is part three of our ongoing series on the diversity of trans. And this series, again, is surrounding the release of my book, Embodied, Transgender Identities, the Church and What the Bible Has to Say. And as part of the release of this book, I'm doing a series of talks with people who are either trans, used to be trans, or are in some way involved in the trans conversation. And the emphasis in this series is on the diversity of this conversation. If you've met one trans person, you've met one trans person. And in this show, we are going to meet another trans person or formerly identified as trans person, Kyla Gillespie. Kyla's been a good friend for the last few years and just has a remarkable story. Kyla, born female and experienced severe gender

dysphoria from an early age, ended up transitioning several years ago and detransitioning back to female three years ago. And she talks a lot about that journey. And what I love about Kyla is she is one of the most gospel-centered, clinging to Jesus kind of persons that I've ever met. So I'm excited for you to hear her story and the ensuing conversation that we engage in. If you would like to support this show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash TheAlginRaw or just check out the links in the show notes and become part of the Patreon, Theology and Raw Patreon community if you so desire.

So without further ado, let's welcome to the show the one my friend Kyla. Kyla, how are you doing these days? Good, thank you. I'm grateful to be here. I'm excited. Well, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. I mean, we've known each other for a few years now, I mean, from a distance largely, but have shown up at conferences here and there, and I keep roping you into different things, and I'm going to keep as much as you're willing to be roped into stuff.

I've just been, I mean, and more and more, like, I mean, you know, I met you, I think it was three years ago, and you were going through a lot of changes in life, which you're going to get into. But man, I've seen you just really grow into, I would say specifically your speaking ability. The last time you shared, well, the Q Conference, but that was kind of short. But then that, well, a year ago, it was a year ago this month, I think, up in Canada, right? Yeah. I mean, when you were telling your story and just talking about the gospel and Jesus and everything, it was so, it was just so good. So I want my audience to experience a bit of who you are.

So I know you've told your story quite a bit, but would love for you to, yeah, tell your story and let us get to know who Kyla is. Thank you. And it was about three years that I met you. I was just in the middle of detransitioning. So yeah, I'll share my story. I'm excited for this. So we'll go back pretty much to my childhood. So at the age of about, as I remember it, about five years old, I could remember feeling different. I remember feeling gender dysphoria and same-sex attraction, so to speak. Of course, at that age, I didn't know what those things were.

I was just really struggling internally. I grew up in a Christian home and I played hockey. I started playing hockey when I was five. So I played with all the boys and I just thought I was one of them. That's kind of when the dysphoria started to morph into something a little bit different. So as I got older, I started to realize that I had to change in different dressing room than the boys. And I didn't feel different. And I remember, you know, wanting to be like my brother, and my cousin. And so for me, I just, yeah, I was a tomboy. I loved sports. I played hockey. I played softball. I played every sport imaginable.

And as I was growing up, I remember just in youth group, in my preteens, you know, having same-sex friendships, but really struggling because I didn't understand why I was attracted to these women, these girls. And, you know, growing up in a Christian home, I knew the Bible. I knew a lot about sin. And in the Bible, that's what we were taught, that that was a sin. And so I wrestled a lot in my teen years, and I didn't really feel like I had anyone to talk to. And that was really difficult for me because at that time, it wasn't talked about at all. And so as I moved into my teens, about, I think, 14 or 15 years old,

there was a big moment in my life where my parents came out to us and said that they were getting a divorce. And for my family, that was really difficult. And, you know, my dad was one of my biggest fans. He would come to all my hockey games and he supported me. And through that time, when they separated, I had to make a choice who I was going to live with. And that was really difficult, because I loved my mom, and I loved my dad. And I chose to live with my mom. And probably only like in that first year at about 15 years old, my mom met a non-believer and ended up getting married to him. And my dad was going through a really hard time at that time and met someone else too. And she had five kids. And so through that

time, I would go visit him on weekends and I would live with my mom on the weekdays. And I was still really wrestling with my sexuality, my gender. And I just kind of pursued my passion with hockey. I went full force into hockey. And at about the age of maybe 18, I started to get scouted in the national program. And I asked my mom, you know, when I graduate, can I move to Calgary and train at the national level? And she ended up saying yes. And so, but just a year before that, I wanted to get scouted. And so I moved, well, I didn't move, I started to travel to Vancouver from the island. I lived in Vancouver Island in Nanaimo. And that was about four times a week on the ferry going back and forth. But at this time, this was the first opportunity that I

had to experience the LGBTQ community in hockey. And because I was so young, you know, there was older women that I was playing with. And I just really got labeled as a tomboy as, you know, there was older women that I was playing with. And I just really got labeled as a tomboy as, you know, they would say to me, you're gay, you just don't know it. And at that time, I, you know, I knew, I knew God, and I wanted to pursue him. But I was really confused, because I had all these feelings inside, you know, same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria. And so that started to play out. When I was 19, I moved to Calgary, Alberta, to play hockey and pursue my passion. And there, being on my own, I took my first drink. And that really changed everything in my life. Here I was, you know, grew up in a

Christian home and then had all this struggle with gender dysphoria and same-sex attraction and now alcohol came in and I was able to numb the truth, numb the feelings that I had towards, you know, the gospel and the Bible and what was right and what I felt was wrong. And and then I came out as gay when I was 23. At the age of 23, I had my first girlfriend. And, you know, I just I I really did. I remember wrestling with it for quite a few years. And I just, because of my drinking, I just gave up. From there, I, you know, really wrestled with gender dysphoria. I felt more like a man than I did a woman. And that was really difficult for me to wrestle with because I, you know, I was born female. And as I started playing hockey, my alcoholism got worse. And I got into a lot of problems, a lot of depression,

and a lot of broken relationships. And so yeah, about I think it was 2017 no 2011 I was so broken and all my you know my exes had left me and I was kind of there by myself and I could barely even go through a whole day without just breaking down and the depression started to get so, so hard and so gripping. And so I reached out to an old pastor of mine that had moved, moved to Vancouver. And I started to, you know, just see him and count and get counsel from him and tell him parts of my life. And I said, you know, I just feel like, like a man. I feel like I'm stuck in the wrong body. I can't do this anymore. And I can't drink anymore.

And he put me actually in touch with this local recovery house. And it was a Christian-based recovery house. And so it was kind of a full circle for me. And in that time, you know, I got to have some sobriety. But my gender dysphoria just played huge on me. I had known maybe three transgender people in that, that time from hockey and everything. And I saw how they were living. And I really, really wanted that. I couldn't see myself as female anymore. And so I got in a relationship the first year. And that relationship, you know, we were engaged and something happened with her. And that relationship lasted maybe about five years. In that period of time from 2011, I decided that I was going to

transition from female to male. I remember, you know, so clearly telling my girlfriend that I was going to transition, telling my mom, and I remember hearing her on the phone just, you know, really sad and broken. And I told my brother and that was my plan is to transition. So from 2011 to 2017, I started my transition. I started on testosterone and I changed my name to Bryson. And I lived male for six years. And in that time, you know, the testosterone started to obviously work.

And I started to pass as male. And I was still in that relationship. And I felt good. I felt more like myself. When I looked in the mirror, I could see, yeah, this is matching what I've always felt. But when that relationship ended, I realized in my early transition that I felt alone. And for me, that was, I can look back now and I see God's hand on it. It was his hand just moving. And, you know, now that I look at it, I see him going, no, you're my child. And I have different plans for

your life. However, you know, as I got back into church, I was living this life of, you know, here I am, transgender. I'm going to this ministry, which our recovery house used to go to, and it was called God Rock. And I'm starting to fall in love with Jesus. And I'm feeling lost and broken. And I thought, you know, okay, I'm feeling lost and broken. And I thought, you know, okay, one surgery came, and another one came. And I thought, okay, this time, I'm going to feel complete, I'm going to feel like a man. But that that never came. And what what ended up happening in that six years is I felt more broken than ever. I felt more hopeless than ever. And I felt lost. And so it was just before 2017. I remember I was living on my own and I was just so broken and I'm crying out to God in my house. And he met me just in such a powerful way. But at this time, like a year before that, these people had come into God Rock, which was a ministry and taken over. And, you know, they became

leaders at the church and I got to know them and we started to walk together. And I had this big secret, you know, they I had already passed for the last five years, four years. And, uh, they didn't know me as Kyla. They knew me as Bryson. And, uh, they didn't know you were by, I mean, born female, like they completely passed. Nobody thought any different by that time, you know, in recovery, everyone, everyone kind of had already passed through. And I was, you know, I knew some people, but they didn't actually, some of them knew my story, but it was not talked about anymore. And a lot of time had gone by and I just lived as Bryson. and so there was actually one guy who ended up being my best friend as Bryson Kyle and he did know my story he knew a little bit of me five years ago when I came into recovery and but yeah

Jess and BJ who took over and Heidi they didn't know and so as I started to you know do life with them I started to go to community group and started to go every Saturday. And it was really difficult because I hear I had this whole other life that I had lived, you know, my hockey, who I was, where I grew up and all that kind of stuff, all my accomplishments in that. And I felt like I couldn't share that with them unless I was open and honest. And so, you know, as I started wrestling, I went to BJ and Jess, who were leaders in the ministry there at God Rock. And I said, you know, I want to share my story with you. And so I did, I shared my story. And I remember BJ so clearly saying, we love you even more. We love you. And, and so I think it was a couple years, about a year and a half that I had walked life out with them as Bryson. And they didn't treat me any differently. They loved me. They, they accepted me. Um, but we started to dig into the word and I said, you know, like I want, I don't know what it looks like. I

want to open up the word of God and I want that to be the authority over my life. And, and they said, okay, let's do this. Uh, but we're going to need some grace too, because we don't know, we've never walked this out with anyone. And so we agreed that we would walk it out. As difficult as it would be, we would try to stay in it together. And that's what we did. And, you know, it was difficult. We didn't walk it out perfect.

We had to extend grace to each other. we didn't walk it out perfect. We had to extend grace to each other. But I think more for me, I had this defensive part of me, like I didn't want to be a project. I wanted to just be loved. And they did that very well. And so I remember, you know, as I was going into the place that I was coming to, hearing him so clearly, I asked him, you know, God, can I follow you as Bryson, as male? And he said, no. And I broke down and I said, you know, God, then what do I do? I believed I was too far gone here. I had lived six years, you know, as male, I had, you know, two surgeries. Um, I passed as male. I didn't know if at that time in my life, when I was on my knees, I didn't know if I could go back. And, uh, and so I said, you know, what do you want me to do? And he said, follow me.

And I said, what does that even look like? And, you know, for me, in obedience, that looked like detransitioning. And he, he told me so clearly that, you know, I created you, Kyla, female. And, you know, and so in that moment, I just remember going, maybe a day later, going back to Jess and BJ, well, Jess at the time, and just saying, Hey, Jess, you know, I want to detransition. And about a year before that, even just to go a little bit back, you know, Jess had come to me and she said to me, you know, I don't want any pressure on you. I just believe God had told me that if you ever decide to detransition, you have a place to live without pain. You know, you don't have to pay. No worry. You can take a year off of work and, you know, you come live with us. And at that time, I hadn't decided. And I do believe that that was God speaking to her because

now that I look back on it, I don't think I would have been able to detransition without having that place to live because just like transition takes about six months on testosterone and everything and to pass and it's hard to have a job when you're transitioning it's the same when you detransition. For me, I found is, you know, I needed a safe place to live. I needed a place where I could go through that hard six months to a year and, you know, pass as as female. And so I did. I excuse me. I moved in with them. And that was a really hard year for me. I am so grateful for them, because they just literally came alongside me. And in my struggle, they encouraged me and they supported me. And, you know, I probably wasn't the easiest person to live with either going through

all the different things like going off testosterone and then having to be on estrogen again. And so that was a that was a big time in my life. And that's actually when I started to just dig into the word of God. Who does he say I am? Because obviously my identity is all over the place. I don't know who I am. I used to be Kyla and hockey, and then I was Bryson and trans. And now who am I? And so I started to really dig into the word and reach out to people. I started to email, you know, and that's where you came along, Preston, as I, you know, I started to email Rob in Australia and he put me through to you and and I was so blessed. That was about probably about four or six months into my detransition

and I was awkward and, you know, uncomfortable share my story and give a voice to it. And so, yeah, I don't know that that's a lot of my past story. Yeah. I want to go back just briefly. When you transitioned, so 2011 and onward um you said that it it it didn't bring the ultimate for you didn't bring the ultimate satisfaction that you thought it would but did it i've heard that that's a very common kind of experience not uniformly but but fairly common. But people still say, but the dysphoria was radically reduced. Would you say that was your experience too? Or did you still experience gender dysphoria after transitioning? No, I would say that that is true. It was true for me in my story. When I started to transition and get on testosterone, that started to help the dysphoria

because what was happening is I would be going out in public and people would see me and I, and I had already been, you know, a tomboy, pretty butch in the community, you know, and so the, the dysphoria was there because I would get labeled. But not only that is I would go into a washroom and people would be like, oh, this is the women's washroom. And that was me before I transitioned. And so that discomfort was at a real big high. And so when I started to pass and I was on testosterone in my transition, I did I started to feel better because people were not making that mistake anymore. And I was able to feel more comfortable in my own skin, so to speak. So, so the, the, the dysphoria was reduced, but your whole, your, your, uh, life as a whole,

wasn't necessarily, you weren't flourishing for lack of better terms if you consider your your kind of everything else put together um yeah it wasn't my soul wasn't satisfied or fulfilled and i felt this hole in my my soul and um and i knew when i was detransitioning just a little bit before that i knew that the missing piece was, was my identity in Christ. And the only way to have that again, I believe, um, was to detransition and be who he created me to be so that I could live out the life that he had planned and purposed for me. And, uh, as I started to do that, um, man, there was some, you know, really hard days and there still is, I still wrestle and struggle, um, with that, but

there's a different feeling. There's, there's a satisfaction in my soul knowing that, um, I'm living the life that he had created me for. And I know you still wrestle with gender dysphoria, right? I mean, it's not like it's completely gone. But after 2017, and not necessarily detransitioning, but having this new identity in Jesus and truly centering your life around that, and again, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Would you say that new identity had an effect on reducing, say, your dysphoria? Was your conversion, did that have an effect on your dysphoria?

If I look back on it it it did and it didn't what i had to do is i had to start renewing my mind um but not only that is i was thinking back on it before i even you know jumped on here with you preston and i and really in the last month, I'm starting to see this small obedience that I that I decided to do when I was detransitioning became has become big to me now. So the obedience that I did is, OK, I'm going to dress differently. you know, that might seem so small to somebody else, but you know, like I'm going to start changing the little things as God starts to press out on my heart, what I wear, how I wear it, where I go, how I walk, how I talk, who I hang out with, things like that. And I know that it's so it might seem so small to someone else, but even my hair, you know, like now, I haven't cut it in a while, because I just believe that God is saying just, no, just wait. Because that might bring, you know, some more dysphoria, or attract attention in areas

that I don't want to be tempted in. And so those have been big things now that I look at it. And I've seen the change. I don't desire to be what the labels would call butchie or tomboy. In my heart and my soul, that actually changed. Really? my heart and my soul that actually changed really and that i become softer and uh and the women that he has created me to be is is is coming out and it's flourishing um as i'm walking in in him so i mean going on testosterone at the levels you know that you were taking and then going off and then now having to take estrogen

to balance i mean that's got to take a toll on your body have you had any kind of just physical complications or any side effects from that i know there's you know kind of new we're kind of still learning the effects of taking cross-sex hormones in the body long term or how like how are you doing just physically yeah physically i'm i mean obviously it's much much easier to be on testosterone and have a great weight and you know like estrogen doesn't produce that um so that's difficult but um i was really blessed because when I decided to, when God called me to detransition, I asked him, like, what will, like, what will it be like? And pretty much I heard, you know, are you willing, no matter what it looks like? And so when I detransitioned, I didn't know if I would look like a girl, if I would pass as female. So you could hear my voice is a little bit lower.

And if you would have known me as Kyla, you would, I noticed that. So my voice hasn't changed as much as I would like it to be. But that is something that I, you know, have to come to terms with. There is different things that I, you know, have to come to terms with. There is different things that I struggle with. So there's consequences for my choices, right? And so some of those are having the surgeries that I had, not being able to, you know, have kids, and some things like that. And so I wrestle with that but um physically i'm healthy uh estrogen's a lot easier like i don't have a hormone producing anymore okay and so i have to

take estrogen daily okay yeah is that something that i do have to do is that common when people have been on cross-sex hormones and then if they do detransition that they that they're they have to actually take supplements they have to supplement the hormone that they would have naturally produced like that i i don't know if that is but once you have a surgery so a full hysterectomy that would change okay oh. Oh, right. So now that I had that surgery, I can't produce a hormone. Got it. Okay. Okay. So that's your personal story.

And what I love about you, Kyla, when you tell your story, you make it really clear that this is your journey. Your journey might look different than somebody else's journey. different than somebody else's journey and and that's i in especially in the trans conversation i feel like we have to be careful globalizing one person's story you know what i mean like taking one story is like this is what everybody's story should look like but i'm sure it's caused you to kind of reflect on the broader trans conversation um and in canada I mean, it's a huge conversation, right? I mean, it is in most countries now, there's, you know, even on a legal perspective. And do you have thoughts on like transitioning, detransitioning and Christian discipleship? I mean, you said this was what God was calling you to, but if you met somebody who had a similar story as you, they had transitioned,

you know, would you encourage, would you say that detransitioning is the Christian path of discipleship or not necessarily? Or have you thought through that? I don't want to put you on the spot if your thoughts aren't quite ironed out. No, that's okay. That's a hard, hard topic or place to go. Because you're right, my story is my story. And it's not every transgender person's story. We all experience things differently. For me, that was my conviction. God spoke to me, I believe audibly, how to follow him. But the reason why I do share my story is so that I could help or encourage anyone, whether or not a Christian or a Christian. But I believe that if we are to take a look at what the Bible says biblically, how he created us, I'm just a created being. He's the creator.

And so if he says, you know, he created male and female and it was very good, then me as a believer and a follower of Jesus, I have to take a look at that and go, okay, you know, like, my feelings are different than what your word is telling me. And so what do I do with that? So for me, when I look at my identity in Christ, it has to be set in something that is unshakable, which is Jesus. When I look at it that way, and I know that my heart is deceitful above all else, and my feelings aren't trustworthy, then what is trustworthy? And I believe it's the Word of God. And how does He tell me that He created me? He created me before the foundation of the world. And so I go to that and I anchor myself in his promise and his truth. And for me, that stands. And so when I look at the trans community, I love them. I want to befriend them. You know, I have friends in the LGBTQ community. Some of them don't want to hear my story and some of them do want to hear my story.

this if you're a non-believer but as we look at the word of god and we're discipling and we're walking along one alongside one another and if we have someone that struggles with you know same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria and all those kind of things okay then then let's walk this out like any other disciple would with a with someone else struggling with anything, because we're all struggling with sin. Yeah, yeah. Right? We're all struggling with something. And as disciples, we're just supposed to walk alongside each other, love each other, grow with each other, speak truth into each other, live, encourage each other. And I believe the Holy Spirit will convict us of the sin.

And that is very, What I love about your story is I mean, well, many things, but I mean BJ and Jess, the two people who came alongside you, how they they were very patient. They walked with you. They saw it

as a journey. It seemed like it was to sit there and say after you first told them your story to say i we love you more we want to be more invested in your life and yet they didn't say like you need to detransition or something like they walked with you in your journey and had the humility to even say like we don't we're we're in this we're gonna journey with you we don't have this figured out you know this is new to us so yeah um do you i mean do you think if they came at you stronger a little more black and white on some things would that have been difficult at that point in your journey like that was it their

humility yeah because yeah it's it's difficult to walk um it out because they walked it so gracefully. I believe that the Holy Spirit was over our friendship from the very beginning. And, you know, when we are walking alongside anyone, it's do we love that person just for who they are? You know, story aside, sin aside, everything, do we want to get to know that person? And they spent the time to invest in my life. And in that, I started to feel comfortable, my walls started to come down. But God was doing a work in my own heart. You know, I was defensive at first, because here I am, you know, six years into transition and I didn't think that detransition was an option.

So for, if they would have came at me really hard and said, Hey, you need to detransition in order to follow Jesus. I probably would have walked away. I don't know, uh, because that's not the story that I have. Um, but the way that they loved me was unconditional. Yeah. And I got a glimpse of Jesus himself, how he loves me. And from there, I was able to, you know, really wrestle with them

and come to them and say, you know, like, I'm struggling with this and struggling with that. And I don't understand this. And they're like, well, we don't we don't understand that either. But, you know, we love you. And yeah, we just we just kept growing that relationship. I'm curious to go back to your story to like the role that gender stereotypes played in your conception of womanhood and manhood, you know, because I mean, it's so it's it's so like the way you describe your story, it seems very so common, like I love to play sports. I love to do this stuff. But I mean, all there's nothing essential to manhood for

instance that says oh if you like sports then you must be a man like that that is really just this the stereotype of what it means to be a true man and yet um it's not like you were just chasing stereotypes like there was something deep within you that was just unidentifiable right i mean it's just like there's something inside of me that just feels different than maybe the gender stereotypes were a manifestation of that. I'm kind of thinking out loud through my question, but did these gender stereotypes maybe exacerbate your dysphoria or what role did they play in, in your, your story? If that makes sense. Yeah, it does make sense. I would say that it definitely played a role in my life. Um, I think labels are dangerous. I think that us as society have to be careful, um, who we're telling is what they are. Like, do we define somebody by what they enjoy

or what they like to do or what God gave them a gift to do, like athletics or poetry? You know, we talk about this a lot. You speak about this all the time. And so I believe it played into the lie. And the lie grew bigger and bigger. And the lie was that, well, you act this way, so you must be male. And, you know, it's funny because the lie was so big. I call it a lie in my life because I believe it was the lie of the enemy. And I look back now and when I looked at pictures before my transition and during my transition,

there was a lot of years where I would look at a picture of me, you know, in my grad dress, the one time I wore a dress and I would say, no, I honestly thought that I looked male. Wow. thought that I looked male. And now that God has transformed my mind and I'm living out the life that I believe he's calling me to and my identity is rooted in him and I'm in the word of God, he's shown me, like I look at those pictures and I'm like, wow, I was deceived. I look like a woman. I looked like a girl. And I see that more clearly now, but I couldn't see it then. That's fascinating. So back then, when you saw yourself in a dress, you still saw male. And now look at that.

I saw a girl really uncomfortable in a dress. But I look at the pictures of me as a girl, as Kyla, before my transition transition and yeah i i was confused there's been a a sudden not well fairly sudden drastic rise among younger people especially identifying as trans non-binary genderqueer um uh what how would you explain that like what what's like why is there such a increase among especially younger people um identifying as trans there's a fascinating quote from a former trans person i i have it in a book here but um i don't want to grab it um this person who transitioned at 13 socially transitioned at 13 detransition at 16 or so so really young um and they said she said um tomboys don't exist anymore in my context like to if you're a more masculine female then that means

you're trans whereas 20 30 40 50 years ago if you're like you're if you're a girl who likes sports and rough and tumble play it's like oh you're a tomboy you know but now we have so many available other categories to where if you're not a feminine female then you're not female is how some people is this person, you know, said it is in their context, which is why I'm concerned about the, you know, the stereotypes. They see it's it's a little odd that in a very progressive environment, we seem to be some people seem to be unintentionally resurrecting really old traditional stereotypes as kind of the foundation of what it means to be a man or a woman. And yeah, I don't want to reduce the whole conversation to just chasing after stereotypes. But anyway, I went on a tangent. Have you seen an increase among younger people identifying as under the trans umbrella? And what would you credit that to? I do see it. Just like when I, you know, born in 1980, there wasn't a lot of talk of same-sex attraction, you know, even same-sex marriage.

You know, it took till I was 23 to come out as gay. All of a sudden it was more acceptable. You know, people had fought for same sex relationships and all that. And so that became, oh, I feel safe now in society to come out as gay. And I think that we're going in the same direction towards transgender. And so I think that it is easier. But I also believe that most human beings struggle at a young age with their sexuality. Not everyone, but I think that, you know, hormones coming in and, you know, you're going through all this change. Yeah, I think it's confusing. And because now we're being brought up with that in our schools, you know, everywhere it's talked about, you're seeing, you know, celebrities transition.

It's all over. And I think that it's easier for us now as younger, you know, preteens and teens to be think, hey, you know, I'm different. I'm not like you said, tomboy anymore. I'm actually transgender. Right. So it's a combination of cultural acceptance and also, I don't want to say cultural pressure, but cultural influence. Everywhere you look, it seems that this can be a very positive thing to do, to identify. And if you don't fit the mold of traditional,

you know, femininity or masculinity, but then also for people that do have, like, serious gender dysphoria and are wrestling with their gender identity on a real deep, deep level, you know, when in the past they had to just, maybe in the past they didn't know what it was, you know? It was just under kind of a sexuality umbrella and like, oh, I guess I'm gay or whatever. But now with more variety of categories and terms, people can kind of name the experience that they're going through. as you look on at the church,

Christians and how they go about specifically the, the trans conversation, what do you, what do you see? And that's kind of a broad way, maybe like what would, what changes would you like to see in the church when it comes to the trans conversation, say in the next five years,

but a part of my might be hey let's have the conversation um but yeah as you as you look on as somebody who is who has gone through through this and still am in many ways um what would you like to see the church to to do better in this conversation i think the church um yeah we need to have yeah, we need to have the conversation. We need to have the conversation about everything, every sin, you know, every struggle, every wrestle. You know, I believe that someone that comes into the church should feel welcome and loved as they identify or who they say they are or feel they are. I don't believe that that should matter on how we love one another.

And I believe that, you know, I went to a church in recovery at the very beginning of my transition. And it was funny because I grew up with a lot of these people. It was a full circle when I say that is I grew up in that denomination and I knew the pastor and some other people from camps, summer camps and all that kind of stuff. And so when I walked into that and they saw me as Bryson, they accepted me, but there was no truth spoken into my life. Then again, I wasn't a member of the church. I wasn't walking closely with them. So they did love me well, but I'm afraid that

in that when someone draws even closer, are we actually opening up the Word of God and are we speaking truth into one another's lives? And so for me, I think where sometimes the church goes wrong is that when we see a sin such as sexual immorality or, you know, whatever, um, it's, it's made as a bigger and more available, uh, discussion than another sin. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, like, I love what you said at the beginning, just the church needs to understand its own brokenness comprehensively the various kinds of brokenness and not to plaster over things like greed and selfishness and porn addiction and gossip and slander like we can go on and on there's a lot of stuff there and i think when the church becomes an environment that just bleeds authenticity about its own brokenness i think that is the kind

of essence of a welcoming environment so it's when the trans person comes in we can't expect them to be open and authentic and say all right come into my life and walk with me if if the church isn't already if it church if the church hasn't already established those rhythms with its its own layers of brokenness but yeah how's canada doing you guys yeah is it uh this conversation is pretty hot up there right or is it uh well canada is accepting of everything and all things and so uh you know we're're, we, I believe are further along than the U S was, uh, as in, um, you know, doctors and testosterone and surgeries and all that kind of stuff. Like our, our government pays for you to transition, like we'll cover the cost of those things and i don't know where you guys are in those um it differs yeah there's yeah as far as i'm not an expert in that area but i think it does

differ on state to state there's there's a lot of movement happening to get a lot of the um transition surgeries covered um yeah even for like young the biggest controversial point now um is trying to really bring down the age where a kid does not need parental consent to transition like currently in oregon it's 15 so a 15 year old uh female I mean male or female, let's just say girl, can go in and get a double mastectomy without parental consent. Most states it's like 16 to 18, I think. But there's a push to get it even lower because it's the hard thing. as I look on from everywhere that's wrestling with this is, you know, if somebody experiences dysphoria, there is right. The belief that that is because they are not their biological sex, that their gender identity is who they are.

And so if you don't acknowledge that, then you're toxic. You're a threat. You need to be weeded out so if a parent tries to encourage their 12 year old daughter to live in like accept her her body or biological sex they would be labeled you know toxic and advocating for conversion therapy and all these things and there's been a growing number of cases where kids, where parents are losing custody of their kids because they won't give their 13-year-old testosterone, you know. So what would you say?

You're sitting down with a 15-year-old, I'll just say female, who wants to go on cross-sex hormones, wants to transition. How would you walk? I know it's a, you know, it's a, it's a very empty face I'm creating here, but on a, on a 30,000 foot level, how would you walk with that young teenager who's, who's wrestling with their gender identity? Yeah. Um, it's a difficult, um, it's a difficult walk. It's, it's difficult to know how to navigate that. If I'm walking with somebody struggling, like I know what it's like to struggle with dysphoria and same sex attraction, and it's a very lonely place. And it's, it's hard. It's a hard road. And so when we already feel isolated

and we already feel like we are silenced in our struggle, so to speak, say this person is too, so I'm going to come with compassion. Compassion because I believe that dysphoria is real. I believe that there is, um, uh, a place where ever since the fall, where we come to a place where we're, we, we see ourselves as, um, as not good or not created properly. And, uh, when I see a young person struggling, and when I see a young person struggling, my heart breaks for them. I don't want to come into a place of arrogance where we say like,

the truth is amazing and we need to use the truth and the word of God, but we also have to have compassion and empathy because if that person is feeling that they're struggling with these things then uh we need to meet them in that place and so that's where i want to meet them i want to i want to hear their story i want to hear their heart and uh i i would encourage them it's so cliche when you say it will get better right tap someone on the back and you say hey it's going to get better when you get older well that's not always true right and so how can we love that person in what they're struggling with if it feels like it's you know just like beyond control. Like this is who I'm feeling I am. I can't explain it. I am desperate, you know, to be who I feel I am. And, uh, well, that's real. I believe it's real. And so I, yeah,

I would just come alongside them. Um, obviously tell them that they're,, that they're worthy, that they are accepted, that they're loved. And then I hope I could share my story with them. I hope they would be willing to hear my story and if I could be a help in any area. Because that's really where I want to come with my story. Obviously, I want God to get all the glory because I don't I couldn't come to a place of, you know, turning and repenting and detransitioning without him because he met me there. met me there. Uh, but you know, I, I just, yeah, I just really want to share my story, give him the glory, but also tell people and tell other people that are struggling with gender dysphoria and you know, um, anything, same sex attraction that there is more satisfaction in Christ. Uh, when we look at who he is and who he created us to be, there's a bigger picture.

That's so good. I mean, again, it seems so obvious and yet we don't make it the obvious point often, but with whatever the struggle is, the main goal is to see your identity and your satisfaction, your ultimate worth and value rooted in Jesus Christ. Let's just set aside the labels, the identities, the specific struggle, whatever. We can all agree that if a person wants to walk this Christian road, that that must be the fundamental non-negotiable point. That Jesus is my all in all, as the song says, you know, that he is my identity. He is point that jesus is my all in all as the song says you know that he is my identity he is my worth he is my value he is my creator my leader my master um i am the created being i am the disciple i am his servant his slave you know um and if once like that's

second to none like that that is the main point once we get that then let's talk about everything else but until we get that point everything else is like you're squirting the flames of the fire you're not you're not actually addressing the main point um would you would you discourage say a teenager from transitioning or would you say like hey let's just delay this for a bit let's let's pursue jesus for a while and see truly seek his voice in this to see if this is the route you should go or how would how would you approach that i believe that i i plead with people um regarding transition and surgeries and hormone hormone blockers i i plead with people don't not don't do it um that that's my personal uh conviction and my opinion there is so many consequences for

the choices that we make um and there is so much more found in christ um so these decisions that we make are we making them hastily? Are we saying, you know, like, I feel this way and I need it gone now? Or are we going to dig into the Word of God and Christ and say, you show me who you created me to be. You satisfy my heart. you satisfy my inward, you know, soul. And so I haven't had opportunity, lots of opportunities to walk alongside a young teenager, to be honest with you. And so I don't have the exact, you know, formula or answer, there is no formula or answer. But I believe I would, I would plead with them, you know, I love you. And I understand you and I understand what you might be going through. I've went through this, this, and this,

and this is how it came about in my life, and these are the consequences that I have. Will you take a look at those? And you have the credibility to be able to speak that and and do so boldly with with the some some level of authority much more than say i would i could i could give you the data the studies or whatever and encourage but at the end of the day it's it's it's tough because that there is that the role like between me and somebody who is wrestling with their gender i mean that that I can imagine how,

how hard it is to look around and see people. And like, you don't know what I'm going, like you have no category, the day to day, hour to hour, what it is to even go out in public and get dressed and just that stress and anxiety. That's just part of the rhythm of my life. So to hear somebody who has no even category for that say oh don't do that you should do this you like i can imagine that that would be difficult you know which is why i'm excited that you're really pressing into this because i think your story it does it gives you a lot of credibility and not just credibility like on the surface but actual wisdom you know that can only come from experience. So, um, Kyla, keep going, keep, keep pressing in. And I'm just

excited to see how God's going to use you, touch the lives of many people. So thank you. And I, I appreciate all the work that you do. You know, uh, you, you come alongside even me, call you my friend, right? And just, yeah, what God's doing with the work that you're doing, just even with the church. So, yeah, I thank you for that. My pleasure. Well, thanks so much for being a guest on the show. Can people find you?

You're not really on social media much, are you? You can find me on Facebook kyla gillespie or um on instagram okay yeah okay no no blog website or anything yet no not yet hopefully i'm going to be launching uh podcasts and vlogs um and i can always send send you the information when that comes if any of your viewers okay you know want to know yeah absolutely so go ahead so follow kyla on uh instagram or if you're over 50 on facebook kyla take care thanks so much for being on the show okay thanks preston Thank you.