Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep5: Diversity of Trans* Part 5: A Christian’s Journey from Male to Female: Addie

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

Addie was raised in a conservative Christian home and has always had a strong faith in Jesus. Addie also has experienced severe gender dysphoria from a young age, and after much prayer, study, and seeking counsel, she decided to transition from male to female toward the end of college.  Add is very happy with her decision, believes it was the right thing for her to do, and still has a robust faith in Jesus. Addie is still theologically and politically conservative, so she doesn’t fit neatly into the categories that people often have of trans* people.  If you would like to learn more about the trans* conversation from a Christian perspective, check out my new book Embodied: Transgender Identities, the Church, and What the Bible Has to Say: https://www.amazon.com/Embodied-Transgender-Identities-Church-Bible/dp/0830781226 Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. This is part five of a six-part series called The Diversity of Trans, where we are exploring and listening to and learning from various experiences within the broader trans conversation. And this series surrounds the launch of my book, which came out a few days ago, called Embodied, Transgender Identities, the Church and What the Bible Has to Say. So if these conversations have raised many more questions than you thought you even had, then I encourage you to check out my book. It's available where books are sold. And another goal with these conversations is that we would continue to put flesh on a topic that often is treated at arm's length,

treated as some polarized issue within the culture wars. And I want to deconstruct that approach and reconstruct it with real people at the center of it. Now, in the last two conversations, we've gotten to know two friends of mine who have gone through both a stage, who have both transitioned and then de-transitioned. One of them, Kyla, de-transitioned back to her birth sex because she had an encounter with Christ and believed that was the right thing for her to do. My other friend, Helena, does not claim any religious identity, and she also ended up transitioning and de-transitioning for other

reasons. Now, in this episode, we're going to get to know my friend Addie. Sold out believer in Jesus, experienced dysphoria from a very young age, tried to alleviate that dysphoria through other means and through much prayer and reading and study and counsel, she decided to transition from male to female and is still identifies as female and is very happy with her transition. And so this is going to be a different story than the last two stories that you heard. And again, I think it's so important for us

to get to know a wide range of trans people so that we will understand that if you've met one trans person you've met one trans person so without further ado let's get to know my good friend All right, I'm here with my friend Addy. Addy, thanks so much for coming on Theology in the Raw. This is long overdue. I mean, it's something that I've been wanting to do for a while, but thanks so much for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks, Prest preston for having me on

i've been following your blog and some of your work since you launched the the center for sexuality gender and faith and um just so happy to be here i know we met in new york probably i don't know now like last year before all this covid craziness was happening so yeah just over a year yeah and i i just i really appreciated um the kind of tone you sent at that conference um i actually had an opportunity to dine with a few folks that were attending your conference um in manhattan afterwards and just the types of conversations that came out of that little workshop were amazing and And me being a trans person and engaging with other Christians in a really cool dialogue was something really special to me. And so that's why I'm super glad

to be talking with you now. Well, I was so glad to meet you because we actually met online. I mean, when I first started blogging about the trans conversation, I was just kind of working out some thoughts and putting stuff together. And I'll never forget reading your conversation. I was just kind of working out some thoughts and, you know, putting stuff together and I'll never forget reading your comment. I don't know if you remember this extended comment. It was really just like, thank you so much. And a lot of agreement. And then towards the end, you kind of threw in, you know, as somebody who transitioned from, you know, male to female, you know,

I, you know, my journey looks a little maybe different but i just so appreciate your um you know to me my attempt to kind of understand this conversation yeah and i was just like man i was so impressed with your posture and humility and yeah and then we met in new york and i i didn't even know like we were talking I know I'm Addie I'm like wait whoa whoa you're like the yeah oh my gosh so um why don't you yeah tell us your story I mean I'll yeah I don't know how you can uh begin at birth if you want or how far back you want to go but yeah love for people to get to know your story and and uh, well, I know you've had a lot of different guests. And that's one thing I've appreciated. Like you said, you you have just wanted to

show a lot of different experiences. And you know, every time you meet a trans person nowadays, that can mean a lot of different things. And so it's always really important, you know, as we're engaging as Christians in this topic to really know the person and get to know their story first. And my story probably starts out like a lot of Christian evangelical kids. I went to a conservative church. I was steeped into the 16th century Calvinism Reformation. I was catechized from fifth grade onwards until I graduated high school. And so it was a unique experience to be a conservative Christian and even still to this day, a Christian that really likes to wrestle with scripture. I, after listening to you for probably a year and a half now, I know that's part of your story is when you came to Christ, just wanting to dig in scripture. And that's how I felt growing up. I grew up in the church, but I wrestled with gender dysphoria from a very young

age, probably at the age of four, I knew something was wrong. But I didn't have the words to kind of describe it. And it wasn't until I was probably about seven, around first, second grade that I started realizing that, you know, boys and girls are different and I don't necessarily want to be grouped in with the boys or don't feel comfortable being grouped in with the other boys. And it was at that point that I decided, even as a young kid, that this wasn't something that was really safe to talk about. You know, every Wednesday night, our church would have like adult speakers while the kids were at Sunday school.

And sometimes I would sneak in after, you know, our classes ended and listen to some of the speakers. And I just remember one instance where there was an Alliance Defending Freedom person repping, you know, talk about how they're, you know, fighting the culture war and fighting against homosexuality and all this type of language about how like something that's hated

now is going to be praised later. And so as a young child, even though they weren't talking about transgender folk, which that wasn't even on the radar back then, I don't even think I knew what, you know, trans was. I just felt very scared. And I saw these people that would be teaching me in, you know, Bible school, but then hear them scoff and kind of be disgusted at the fact of like these homosexuals and, you know, LGBT stuff that I just felt scared. And so I decided that this was a, that wrestling with dysphoria became a spiritual problem for me it was something that I decided to fight against from a very young age I prayed about it a lot I prayed every night and it just felt like this something that I could not get rid of and that stayed that way and and the

way I kind of described my story is you can live like that for a long time, but there are definitely peaks and ebbs and flows to dysphoria. And I just felt like there were every time it came back and reminded me it just got worse and worse. And that was probably when I was in second grade, I started to realize, oh, I think my mother was watching something on the Tay Show and they were interviewing a trans woman with Katie Couric or something. And I remember seeing that and just being so afraid because it connected with me so profoundly. Like I could just feel like my heart just like got pricked in that moment. And so at that time, I knew I had a pretty big problem on my hands. problem on my hands, but I had no, you know, I lived in a, in a family and in context where I wasn't really, we were kind of this Northern European Dutch family where we didn't talk a lot

about the feelings and the, you know, we just went to church on Sunday. We knew we were kind of like, we know our faith, we study our faith. And then, you know, that's, that's about it. There wasn't a lot of like personal warmth conversations going on and so I just worked on it on my own and fast forward to middle school which is kind of where my story I think kind of departs and from maybe the common narrative but I kind of hit puberty really late so I didn't really start puberty until probably late into high school but around eighth grade I started getting lots of pains. And I started getting sick. And for years and years and years, I was going to doctors, they thought it was, you know, celiac,

or they thought I had mono, and they thought I had, you know, maybe colitis and all these things. And it just never was, nothing was that they would always scan me from head to toe and be like, we don't know what's going on. And in the back of my mind, I kind of thought, well, maybe it's this dysphoria. Maybe it's something is actually, actually wrong with me because something that's interesting about my story is I'm also a twin. So I had this brother, you know, that's right next to me growing up maturing and, you know, experiencing the world. And I'm starting to feel like I'm experiencing it very differently. And so that's something that me and him have talked about over the years as

I've transitioned, like, what was your teenage, you know, years like when you, you know, you were developing into Dalton versus mine. And yeah, that was, that was pretty interesting. And so into college, I, I started college, actually, I think the first time I told somebody I was struggling with dysphoria was a mentor of mine at my grandpa's cabin up in Northern Michigan on my 18th birthday. And I, it was like a six hour standoff. Like he knew something was wrong with me. He knew something was laying heavy on my heart, but I was just so terrified. And finally after like six and a half grueling hours of just like being like, you can tell me, you can tell me, I kind of just like wrote it on a piece of paper. Like, I feel like a girl, I want to be a girl. And I just like was so embarrassed. And so

that kind of started my journey of like really wrestling with dysphoria. And from that moment on, I met with a pastor in my youth group, I met, and I was convinced that I could like beat this, you know. And so my goal was to prove this like theologically wrong. I was, I wanted to have good, solid arguments because even at that time, I felt like conservatives didn't have really good arguments against gender dysphoria or transitioning. And their only argument was like a kind of a reactionary towards like the LGBT agenda, like gays are bad. So therefore, this is bad. And I didn't really that wasn't satisfying for me. And I was going to church in New York, and I sat down with my pastor and said, This is what's going on. And we had that initial confusion of like, Oh, you're,

you're a gay man. And trying to like, get me help. And like, you know, I met with all these like, ex gay guys in New York that were Christians. And I was just like listening to him and my pastor talk about like attractions and stuff and like just how he started to be attracted to men. And I was like, that is not my sexual experience at all, because the way I felt like I experienced my sexuality was from a standpoint of a woman, like all of my girlfriends and, you know, the people I grew up with, like it was very much in line with that. And so I knew I wasn't a gay man, but I didn't quite know what to do with, you know, with myself at that point. And so probably my junior, it was my junior year of college, I went to a conservative Christian college, and I've been hospitalized

a couple of times, partly probably due to just the stress and anxiety that dysphoria was having on me. And that was when I decided to seek some more answers and started asking some questions. And, you know, I think a lot of my conservative friends and pastors were all well-meaning, but this topic was just something that was so far ahead of even what they had studied. And I remember asking questions like, am I suffering unnecessarily? Like that was where I started with. Once I decided that this was something God gave me room to wrestle with, I wanted to know, am I suffering unnecessarily? If God really wants me

to live as a man, then any type of sacrifice is worth it. But if I'm just living that, because that's what my pastor says, or that's what people think or feel is the right way. I don't want to suffer for the rest of my life. You know, unnecessarily, if God isn't calling me to that. And so that kind of started my wrestling. And I kind of grounded my search based off of like, I don't know if I'm going to transition or not. But we're kind of with this proverb choose mentality, like I'm going to search after wisdom. And I'm going to, you know, yearn after it. And therefore, God is going to honor that search. And he's going to guard the way of the righteous. And so that's kind of what I decided to settle in for the next few years until I transitioned.

And when did that, was it in college, later in college when you did decide to transition or? Okay. And you were, it was, so while you were at it. While I was in college. Yeah. Okay. So I, I, how did that go like i mean you and a terminology as as you know in my audience knows you know is always difficult and if there's a term or whatever you would prefer that i use please let me know but like i mean you started college as a boy as a man you know junior year senior year now you're you're a girl. Um, yeah. How did that go in the college? Is that, is it the way I described it or do you want to re-describe it? No, no,

that's, that's, that's fine. Yeah. Totally, totally good. Yeah. I came in and it is a, is a, you know, it looked like a boy. I, there was nothing, you know, out of the ordinary. Um, you know, I was a little small and stuff, but, uh, it definitely wasn't, you know, out of the ordinary. You know, I was a little small and stuff, but it definitely wasn't, you know, average height like I am now. But it was an interesting process. You know, I kind of the summer before I actually transitioned was the moment where you had the transgender tipping point, Caitlyn Jenner coming out. And I was in Korea at the time. And I remember seeing the tweet just come on of Caitlyn Jenner in my gut just dropped because not only was this so personal to me, because this was something I was wrestling with, but I already knew that, okay,

this is going to be the stereotype in the image that everyone at my conservative college has, type in the image that everyone at my conservative college has if I decide to, you know, transition. And so we're all in that, you know, that cultural context where I think things were very heightened. You know, you think cancel culture was is bad now. I mean, back then or it's bad now, but back then it was just getting kind of started. You know, it wasn't really that bad. And so I took a semester off and I just worked a full-time job. And that was when I was going to counseling and I started hormone replacement therapy in the summer before I started college in the fall. And so when I started college, back at college, I probably had been on hormones for maybe four to six months.

So, you know, we're not talking a lot of change there. And I was on campus frequently there, but there was definitely it was a small school. So there was lots of like people looking at me like, is she changing? You know, what's what's going on? So I definitely felt like the microscope. But to my college's credit, they wanted me to come back. The process of reintegrating in the community was difficult, but it definitely was a learning experience on both ends because, you know, we had a college that wants to, you know, maintain a historic Christian,

you know, position, which, you know, I think we can talk about this later. I don't think there has been a historic Christian position on gender dysphoria. I think in terms of sexuality, there is, but they wanted to do that, but they also wanted me to feel involved. And so that little balancing act was definitely hard at times, but I was really grateful that I got to, you know, come back and finish my degree at the college that I started at. Okay. What was your social environment like? I mean, I can, my, my assumption would be that would, that was super stressful. I would imagine that probably added to the anxiety, but how did, I guess, your, your student peers receive you and how about faculty? Like, were there tensions there or was it a good experience or a blend of both or

yeah well i i think too um it was basically like having two freshman years for me so i did two years um and uh kings is uh very it was it's very um it's divided into these like house systems my school was and so there was like male house and female house. So that that became difficult, because all the social environment was surrounded. And a lot of I think, my friends from the first two and a half years, you know, it was a hard adjustment. And so some of them, I didn't really talk to again, and it was kind of just making a lot of new friends. And then I felt also to that, as a student, I was kind of, you know, maybe being kind of hijacked, I think a little bit by like more liberal students that wanted to use me as

kind of this, like this agenda to kind of push forward and kind of be a thorn in the side of a conservative college. And so navigating that as a young child, but I mean, it helps me to stay there for me. I have one friend that I met the first day of school when I started the college, like my freshman year when I presented as male, and we are both very good friends to this day. And just to see a friend that walks with you for that long was so special. So I got to see some hurts, but also see where God really worked through the hearts of people to like, keep on being that presence of Christ, even when they didn't know how to react to the situation.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's, I mean, I just, I picked, i just i picked i'm i'm just imagining myself in your shoes going going you know showing up in class and um just yeah that that that would be yeah frightening in in many ways uh it was a question everybody's gonna want to know it like housing like was that so you for the first years, were in male housing and then female housing. And was that an issue or is that how it went? Yeah, the school. So, I mean, there was a lot of policies and they would have to kind of, they were kind of creating these, you know, as they went because they were thinking about these things. But so housing was difficult.

And that was, I actually ended up living off campus. So that was the easiest way to, you know, to do that. It also saved me lots of money, but, uh, yeah. So I lived off campus with a few girls from, from the college. And, um, I actually got to my school that have like dorms. So I could actually, I rented a room, like an apartment in the same building that all of the, you know, the apartments were in. So for me, it was almost like, it was still like, felt like living on campus, but I just had my own apartment. So. Okay. Okay. How did you work through, you know, you said early on,

you were like, no, I can beat this. You know, I'm not going to transition to then being reconciling your decision to transition with your faith. Um, how did, was that just a lot of reading, a lot of praying, a lot of asking questions, all the above? It was, um, you know, I think there is a misconception and I think, you know, um, some of your listeners might know Mark Yarhouse. Um, you know, he wrote understanding gender dysphoria and now Emerging Gender Identities. And one of the things that he addresses in that book is this misnomer that because you become trans, that your faith suffers. I mean, that can be true.

And unfortunately, like you have mentioned with your studies, like 80% of LGBT people were in the church and 50% would come back if they felt safe. And so for me, actually, my faith was rocked primarily because it was grounded on authority. I grew up in a very, I would say, legalist context where I just accepted what authority told me was right and wrong. I just accepted what authority told me was right and wrong. And I think that deconstruction for me was almost more difficult than the dysphoria part. But it started out with a lot of praying and a lot of reading. I kind of started my journey with this idea that all God's truth is God's truth. That kind of famous quote from Abraham Kuyper that there's not a square inch that Christ does not call mine. And so I felt like I could read, I, I be you know,

the opportunity to read lots of psychology, to read lots of medical journals and to like view that through a biblical lens, but not cast it out. Because I think a lot of people like my parents, and when I was testing with people that were very concerned, they kind of just felt like, I don't want to look at that world. But that was very much me looking at what's the studies on this. And for me, it was a physical thing. I think a lot of the phrase you hear in secular society is like, I did this to be happy.

I didn't transition to be happy. And I reiterate that to people all the time. I transitioned to be a. And I reiterate that to people all the time, I transitioned to be a whole and a healthy person. And, you know, for me, that started with prayer, lots of prayer, it was assembling a kind of a care team around me, which was a close mentor of mine, who helped pray with me and discern, and then just taking it one step cautiously at a time. So not like really fast changes, but seeing how each change, you know, felt. And so that's kind of how I started out.

So how long, it was five years ago when you transitioned? Yeah, in 2016. Did it drastically reduce or even do away with your dysphoria? Do you still wrestle with gender dysphoria, would you say? Yeah, I think dysphoria is something that, honestly, it will never go away. It's highly mitigated so in the same way that you think with someone with adhd or um depression or ailment even a fit you know even a more like um actual physical ailment like diabetes or you know things like that like medication and medical doesn't always solve completely the problem it

doesn't you know we have a new heaven and new earth coming, which is going to solve all of that stuff. But it definitely like enormously reduces the amount of time that that problem is on my head in a given day. Okay. And I know every individual story is different. And that's, that's part of why I'm doing the series is just to show that like, one story is one story is one story, you know, and for everybody, it's different. to show that like one story is one story is one story you know and and for everybody it's different if i can ask have you ever had like any kind of regret or like man i'm not sure should i done that or is that just kind of part of the norm is that like part of the journey that everybody's on or because i know that's a big question now which kind of seems like a grown number who maybe as a more younger teen were kind of maybe rushed into a little too quickly and in

my opinion and um they didn't go through the vigorous process that you did so much study and reading yeah and um yeah so it seems like we're having more and more people that are kind of regretting but again every story isn't different um yeah yeah here here's what i would say about that i think right now dysphoria or like transsexualism like your previous guests um talked about um it has a long history i mean all the way back to um um 1931s in herschfeld um in germany they were doing lots of studies. Lots of these studies were lost, unfortunately, during World War II. But transsexuality has actually been something that was documented and being studied. And right now in society, I think we have a two-layer,

kind of two-layer gender thing going on. You have, I think think what's always been counted as transsexuality and kind of um people that have gendered um non-conformity that's kind of like you feel like it's it's kind of built in from birth and then we also have this idea of gender expression um and so I think sometimes as the church when we're engaging these topics like we kind of like put this like gender expression you know kind of self-autonomy like your body is something to use to like kind of like um change like a skin on like a you know like an instagram filter like to express yourself i think there that's a totally separate conversation from like transsexuality where like gender dysphoria has me a diagnosable threshold um it needs medical attention and so um yeah i think that um you know i view myself in the second camp and i'm trying to

remember where i was what your initial question was oh it had to do with kind of do you ever regret making a decision oh yeah i like the direction you're going in, though. Yeah. And yeah, I'll just follow up with saying is that whatever camp that you fall into, whatever kind of, I would say experience is probably a good a good term for it, whatever experience you come from, really will shape the outcome. So I think that someone could have dysphoria. But maybe transitioning isn't the best option for them. Because that dysphoria can come from a variety of different ways, just like depression. Depression can come from a physical ailment within the brain.

It can also come from trauma. It can come from abuse. It can come from a lot of things. And you've seen that probably with your work in sexuality is that sexuality can come from an inborn kind of, this is something i experienced from like since i was eight or it can also come with something because someone's addicted to porn or was abused as a kid and so there's nuance in terms of like what you're experiencing dysphoria

but what where is that dysphoria coming from and that's why i was so cautious and that's why i encourage like any trans person. And then I talk. Or you start on the medical route, like let's unpack this dysphoria and see where it's coming from, because, yes, you may need to transition, but you also might need to unprocess like your ideas about gender stereotypes or your trauma that you had in your past. And I think that can relate that can result into someone transitioning and regretting versus someone transitioning and having a well-adjusted life. By the way, we have some internet glitches going on here. So hence, if we get cut off, we'll just stay put and it'll kick back. I'm in the process, actually. I'm so excited.

Do you know Elon Musk? You know Elon? Yeah. Is he giving you some high-speed alien network over there? Yeah, sort of. Well, Starlink, this whole satellite thing he started, I'm part of the beta testing group because I live in a certain area. So as we speak, I have my dish outside from Elon. I just need to hook it up and figure it out.

So I'm still on my old internet speed, but my podcast followers decided to know this will improve. Extraterrestrial, yeah. Extraterrestrial Wi-Fi there. So this is what I mean. You defy being put in a box on so many levels. I mean, first of all, you're a very, very committed Christian. It was very much your faith that comes first in everything. And even though you decided to transition, there's going to be some people that are like, oh, I don't know if I agree with that or whatever.

At the end of the day, you can't disagree with the fact that your faith has always been at the center of everything you've done, which seems very obvious. And also, you're very much evangelical. It's not like, oh, now I went liberal or whatever. You would have a pretty standard evangelical set of beliefs when it comes to Christianity, right? Oh, yeah, for sure. That's very correct.

And not only that, but you— Oh, yeah, for sure. That's very, that's very correct. I think biblical based argument for in certain cases that, you know, transitioning is, is at least not, you know, immoral or, you know, not. Yeah. So I think that I just think those arguments haven't been thought out a lot and there's not a lot of conservatives doing those arguments because there's not a lot of conservative trans Bible loving people out there. Now, so, but you, you kind of mentioned in passing just to revisit it like you know there's different approaches to addressing dysphoria right you have more kind of the psychological first approach like let's explore is there trauma is there all kinds of

different things that could be going on let's explore those first maybe some of those experiences are connected to the dysphoria and let's like the first thing should be let's explore those first maybe some of those experiences are connected to the dysphoria and let's like the first thing should be let's relieve it psychologically and and maybe after you've done that um is is the best route for this this person that that approach is now seen as like transphobic and conversion therapy and you know it's like it's being kind of um you know a lot of people pushing back against that but you seem like you would kind of favor that that trans if a 15 year old says i think i'm trans i have dysphoria like you wouldn't it doesn't sound like you'd be like all right well let's start transitioning you would be a fan of exploring other options yeah

yeah i mean i i i'm still a a proponent of that to this day, because I always tell people that everyone focuses on the physical part of transition and there's less focus on the spiritual or the, I mean, sorry, the latter. And I feel like that makes a more healthy transition because you can change what your body looks like. But if you're still suffering from a lot of trauma or just misconceptions, you're still going to have a pretty rough go of it. You still have to live with you, you know, after the end of the day. pretty rough go of it. Um, you still have to live with you, you know, after the end of the day. So your dysphoria, because it was early onset, like from a very, very early age, what's, I mean, it wasn't linked to trauma, was it? Or, um, no, no. And that's the, you know, that's something that a lot of people wanted to find was like, oh, were you abused as a child? Um, what, What made you think this way? What made you think like you thought you were a girl? And, you know, there was also this idea of like, oh, maybe you just like, like you've talked about like stereotypes.

Like maybe you're just a guy that likes to do more girly things. But, you know, for me, that never made sense because it's like, you know, I can go, go you know do the most masculine thing and i can do the most girly thing like it's not about me like wanting to be that stereotype it's like really about how i feel in my body um and also physically like the physical symptoms that were unabated until i started hormone replacement therapy oh wow so, so the physical ailments you're experiencing early in college, once you went on hormone therapy, those, those went away. Wow. Yeah, they went away a lot. I mean, they didn't go away totally, but I just think that, uh, you know, dysphoria, like I mentioned in the blog, like what it felt like I was trying to describe it and you got a lot of

good responses. It just kind of felt like there was this like electrical grid in my body that just didn't like almost when you have like the lights halfway through on and off, and it's just like, kind of sparking, like, it just kind of felt really bad in my body all the time. I was achy, I had pains. And I kind of describe it as like, if you put diesel in a regular car, like you might be able to get the engine started, but it's gonna, you're going to just like rip the engine apart and it's going to, you know, break down on you. And that's kind of how I felt testosterone was in my body. Like I felt it when it, when it surged in puberty, but it never felt good. And it always just, it just felt very foreign. Wow. Wow. So, so let's, let's talk about politics a little bit, because this is another

area that I just, I don't know, like, I love, I love people and stories and experiences that just, there's a phrase that a journalist used the, on the edge of the inside, meaning you're, you're in a certain maybe group or experience or whatever, but you're kind of on the, like you're, you don't fit the kind of stereotype within that. So politically, you'd be very much conservative, right? I mean, is that, are you able to talk about, and you're very much in politics. That's a big part of what you do. So yeah, talk to us about.

Yeah, it's been a part. Yeah, it's been a part since I was in college. I've worked on four campaigns across the country. I was a college. I've worked on four campaigns across the country. And it's I'm a conservative. You know, right now that that can mean a lot of things. As you saw, I mean, even the Republican Party right now is it's quite disarray. So and but for me, that means limited government. It means fiscal responsibility. It means I'm really grounded in this like classical liberal idea of government that, you know, that there's rights that are inherent to human beings and those rights are not given by government. They're protected by the government. I, you know, love kind of how I think morality, especially the Judeo-Christian worldview, has really helps enable self-government.

And so those are the things that, you know, as a person that's interested in politics, those are something that I've worked and wanted to be around for a long time. Ever since I was a first grader, I watched the State of the Union address. Now, because I'm a conservative, that means I operate in Republican spaces, because largely, we have a two party system. So that also means I operate in a lot of spaces where like, trans people are not very welcomed, or, you know, there's some pretty harsh things said about me, even when I'm in the room, and they don't know I'm trans. So that's just something that you learn how to navigate. and they don't know I'm trans. So that's just something that you learn how to navigate.

Well, yeah. How have you been received within specifically Republican spaces when they do find out you're trans? Are you persecuted? Yeah. If they're libertarians, if they're more libertarian Republicans, I am interested in libertarianism, but I've read Ayn Rand things and like it's like can be very amoral. They kind of shun morality and just kind of like, let me do you do you. And as long as you're not bothering anybody. But if I'm working with like your stereotypical, like evangelical Republican,

it's, it never ends. It never ends. Well, usually when they find out it kind of radically shifts their grid on how they think about me. And it also brings up this idea of like, Oh, you were lying to me. Which as a trans person, like, you know, I believe you you're always honest with the people that you date and that are close to you, but your people that you work with, colleagues, it's not a very, like, I think, professional thing to have to announce. I mean, I'm very different because the LGBT community is very boisterous, but I think living in a modern society, we've gotten this notion that, like, we're owed a platform to speak all the time about ourself and how we're oppressed and all this stuff. And I certainly had points about that and where I was like that in my younger years, but I'm learning to try to, you know, keep my

personal things away from business, from the professional world. Yeah, that is, I mean, it's like, yes, it's obviously a huge part of your story, your life, but it also like, I can imagine many conversations, you know, even relationships that it's like, yes, it's obviously a huge part of your story, your life. But it also like I can imagine many conversations, you know, even relationships that it's like it's not like you need to. Hi, my name is Addie. And by the way, here's my whole story. Yeah. Yeah. It just would be kind of almost awkward in some some context.

We can talk about this offline just briefly. But can you explain the difference between transsexual and transgender? And what are your thoughts on that? on the left, they have widely expanded. So the way I kind of start with this to make it, you know, kind of understandable to people that are not into this word kind of conversation is like when you used to call someone a gentleman in Renaissance or in Europe, it used to actually mean connote and information. It used to mean that you're landed, you own a property, you might've been knighted. It associated like a title with responsibilities and whatever.

Now we call gentlemen like, oh, you're such a gentleman because you opened the door for me. Like that doesn't tell me anything about who you are except a subjective kind of, oh, you're nice. So the definition is subjective. So it means nothing. I feel like transgender has suffered from that same phenomenon is transgender used to kind of mean roughly be synonymous with transsexual the only difference is that transsexuals were medically transitioned and transgender people weren't um that's how it kind of was defined when i was first researching it back in like high school, but now transgender as file per definition is an umbrella term that

encompasses a, B, C, D E F G, you know? So you really don't know when you say I'm trans, I'm transgender, like what that person's saying. And so, because of that, I've kind of shifted to transsexual and when I'm in an environment where I'm talking about this because then you go okay i know that you're a person that medically transitioned okay okay yeah i noticed too it seems like and for various reasons maybe there are some older uh trans people who would prefer transsexual whereas transgender kind of like gay lesbian and queer

you know younger generation is is latching on to queer more than more than an older generation but there's also some people like miranda yardley who i had on who is it's more of a um i think she would see like transgender is more of a you know an activism of science denial yeah denial whereas she's like, no, I mean, I transition is the best way to kind of relieve my dysphoria, but I'm not going to deny the fact that my biological reality or, um, is there some of that maybe in here? Yeah. I mean, and I differed than Yardley too, a little bit because, you know, we talk about

biological sex and this was a big discussion when I first decided to transition. It's like, well, God's intent was you to be a male. And, you know, I listened to one of your very old podcasts with Leanne and she was an intersex Christian and she by far was one of the stories that you covered that like I identified with the most. Just kind of, you know, I, on average, I was, I was a very small boy growing up and, you know, I never really met average weight and height statistics, but with the physical component of me, you know, I started

thinking when I was researching, like, I know there's intersex cases and I never tried to like, I don't want to like push those two categories together because that can be unhelpful and, and, and things like that. But to me, I operate out of this idea that we live in a fallen world. Um, and so therefore a number of things can go wrong with our development. And this kind of touches on brain sex theory a little bit, even though that's something that has been far from fully proved. But to me, my, my issues were so physical and so body related that like, it felt to me like, okay, well, if you have all these different types of intersex cases, um, ranging from very obvious to, you know, just your chromosomes being mixed, but no one really knows your intersex. It seems to me plausible that like something physically could go be going on

with me where, you know, like my body is just not, you know, you know, fully physically male formed whether that's just internally or, you know, that's, that's interesting. Do you know, I mean, if I can ask, do you know if you have an intersex? I don't, I, I, I don't know. I don't, I, you know, I have an intersection i don't i i don't know i don't i you know i don't i doubt i do but that's that was something just because i when i was growing up and it was such a physical thing i remember thinking over and over again like maybe i am intersex or maybe there's something our parents don't know like you're you talk so freely and

openly and comfortably i mean i'm this is a personal topic for you obviously it's like you don't even mind if i ask kind of personal questions like that or even like you you seem to operate extremely well with different perspectives agree to disagree like you're a big advocate of free speech and like you're not never sensed at all like you kind of demanding somebody agrees with you at all like how do you do that because that is i mean this conversation it's so volatile people are so they can't even be in a room with somebody that disagrees slightly yeah but you're very different yeah i'm glad you brought that up because i think um a lot of it i will start is the grace of god you know therefore the grace of god there go i um my journey has been so um lockstep with Christ that I feel like I have been

given an extra sense of calmness and just peace when I've dealt with people that will literally come up to me in a church context. I'm in a group of people and it's very disrespectful because they didn't need to jump into that conversation um and they just kind of do that you cut out can you go back just like 10 seconds oh you were really important yeah in the church yeah no i'm glad yeah in the church context because you know god is giving me a lot of grace because i you know i've had people that have come up to me and just like purposely use he him pronouns when i'm in a group that doesn't know I'm trans because they, because they knew I'm trans. I was like a small group I was in in New York and they, I, they found out I was trans.

And so I literally sat down with them. I let them give me their spiel for two hours about how I'm wrong and how I'm deceived and all this stuff. And I am polite and I give back my research and the things that I'm wrong and how I'm deceived and all this stuff. And I am polite and I give back my research and the things that I'm thinking about. And oftentimes it's met with like, well, no, I can't consider that. But every time I've ended those conversations, it's always ended with, wow, like you do really care about scripture. And I think this is important that you bring it up because in secular society, it's all about me and getting my voice heard. And I think a lot of this shouting and canceling is like, I need to feel safe in you.

And what does Christ teach us? He teaches us to be the opposite, you know, make yourself uncomfortable to be around those that are at the margins of society. And that is a gospel thing through and through. And I think it's something that the church really does need to work on. Because so many times, fundamental evangelical conservatives, however you want to categorize it, they don't operate with that they need to, they operate with this mindset that I need to know, you need to know that I think you're wrong, so that I can talk to you. And that's just that's not a Christ. that I can talk to you. And that's just, that's not a Christ.

I'm just kind of stunned right now, honestly, like you have so much to teach us. And you're, yeah, I'm just so thankful you exist and your voice is your voice, but more than that, just your humility like that, what you just said, I mean, given your experience with dysphoria and the anxiety and and wrestling with that and your faith and whether to transition i mean all these things to then have you be in a position where you are still extending grace to somebody that really has no clue that that's that's's, that's very unique as you know. So thank you for your posture and modeling that. That's, that's incredible.

It's hard. It's hard. It's not been, yeah, it's not been easy, but. Yeah. Have you had, can you give us a good experience you've had with somebody maybe that isn't, maybe still might not agree with you on everything in this conversation is showing you the same kind of love and grace that you've had to extend to so many people? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Like, yeah, it's what's cool about being one cool thing about being trans. There's not a lot of cool things about being trans, you get to because you sometimes you're on the margins you get to experience a side of Christ and see how he works to fill your needs as a as a person that kind of lives like you said on the edges and I've encountered a few people in my life that I would just say like have that Christ likeness where they disagree with

me um but they have constantly you know been there one of my friends um she the one that I told you about you know from I met the first day of school for my freshman year um I know we disagreed a lot and she probably didn't like really um um, agree with like maybe my steps to transition, but was always there to talk it out. Um, you know, have a lot of these types of conversations that we're having now. Um, there was another, um, a guy in my, my house, um, when I was in college and, you know, he was definitely very like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to deal with this. But from the moment I came back to school, he decided that, you know, God's calling me to be a friend to her.

I am, he, we would go out to lunch once a month. Um, he helped me move when, like when I moved apartments in New York, like he helped me carry stuff up my like five story walk up. And just seeing that was like, wow, like you disagree with me, but you want to understand and you want to get to know why I made the decisions I did. And so that, yeah, that these things that's part of, I think, like Christian life, and they don't feel scandalized that you're in life with them, just like Jesus didn't feel scandalized by the people he chose to break bread with. And I think that's been some ways I've really seen some really good moments in church. Wow, that's such a good word. Are you like currently, cause I mean, I would imagine

you would find your home and identity in a more conservative church. And yet obviously your story, you know, could bring challenges to some people there and even church policies and stuff. How, how do you navigate that? Is that, has that been difficult or? Yeah. Yeah. It's been difficult. Um, I I've been in, I just don't want to go to more liberal churches, because I just don't agree with the theology. But so often, I've been in like, not even mainline, I've been in like conservative churches, like the PCA and the RCA. And, you know, right now, I'm in Dutch West Michigan. So it's all crc but um it's um i have yet to open up at one of those conservative churches i mean early in my transition it was kind of like obvious like here's this person that's transitioning now it's kind of dependent on me disclosing that information and that's just something i've decided not to do because I don't want to rush into it. And, you know, I want to, I think, experience Christian fellowship. And I think

that that doesn't always require to be the most vulnerable all the time. It's picking like, picking your, you know, I heard this phrase, likeesus had his one he had his three he has 12 and he had his 5 000 and it's like who are your who's the disciple that's most loved who you're going to share everything with and who is like what information needs to be shared where it's kind of like what you have to learn how to do okay um yeah so yeah i mean you you can yeah i can imagine you can be in a church and no one's gonna think anything unless you bring it up so yeah which could be great i can imagine the stress though of when that conversation comes up or if or if they're like hey would you lead this or you want to be a deacon or elder and you're like well maybe yeah yeah and i've i've gotten into things where um where you know like one church you had to get

like a background check because they required everyone to like be in the nursery once a quarter or something and so I just was kind of like oh I just not gonna become a member like right now like because I didn't know what to do um Um, that was the first time that I, you know, had experienced that. And so I just kind of serve from the margins. Like you can always serve. And my goal, you know, when I transitioned was how do I do this in a holy manner? Like, how do you do it in a manner that's set apart from the world? And so I want to be the best light I can for Christ, even if people are not going to treat me with the same type of compassion. And so it's really hard, you know, people do find out and you're the one that's like serving others and doing the work of Christ. And then they're going to kick you out of the church because, you know, you made a decision.

And then like it's always about that disposition of respecting authority but being willing to talk about it like we are right now um um so yeah that's what i try to try to do not always perfectly but yeah well um man are coming up here close to an hour do you have any last words or things you'd like to say to the audience? I mean, I'm sure people are really, yeah, enjoying this conversation, I hope. And yeah, any last words, anything that you'd like people to know about maybe the conversation as a whole, your story or how we move forward? Yeah. You know, I would say that this is definitely, I think, it, um, you know, in the kingdom of man, like culture is gonna, it's gonna be left to its devices in some regards. And

as Christians, it's our, you know, it's our responsibility to be out in society and being the salt and light. Um, but that's gonna mean mean having a very relational, you know, aspect with the people that you disagree with, realizing that like, God doesn't work on the same timeline we do. And so because someone is starting to transition, or because someone has already transitioned, or because someone's wrestling, doesn't mean they're always going to be wrestling. And it's, it's's not like you should meet someone that is trans and then like like you know think you know convince them that they're wrong um and that like every trans person isn't you know a lot of trans people that you never get to talk to

you've probably met because they transition they get on with their lives and they go back into you know society and so um that's something to remember and then also just i think when we think about using scripture um as a battering ram there's some things that i've heard you know like the constant one is like take up your cross um that's been told me millions and millions of times. It's kind of out of context when, you know, Christ is asking us to deny ourself and give up our life. But it's, and that's in relation to him picking up the cross and doing what God was calling him to.

But it's not this idea of like, oh, because I have physical ailments, I should just live with those physical ailments. I mean, and that's kind of how it's been brought in my context. Like, oh, God, this is your thorn. Like, wrestle with the dysphoria. It's kind of wrong for you to want it to be mitigated. And I think there is, as me, I've always said there's a proper context. Like, I'm not looking for the magic pill.

And when I get to heaven, I know all things will be made new. I know that my body, my mind will be, be right. I don't know if I'll be male or female in heaven, you know, but I'll be happy because it's the Lord's will be done. But just using that verse is like, you should never want to escape physical suffering. I think that's so wrongheaded. Because when I read the gospel, and I learned this kind of as I was just chronically suffering with sickness and pain pain is that Jesus starts his ministry with healing physical ailments. I mean, I was counting before I got on the show in Matthew. There's 16 stories of healing out of 28 chapters in Mark.

There's like 16 chapter 16 stories, instances of God healing. And these are just things that they say we only recorded and there's so much more that was done that couldn't even fit the books and so I kind of encourage Christians to think of James you know in this instance of like if you just say go to a brother that's like poorly clothed and sick if you just say, go peace, be well, and be filled, like you're not really keeping your obligation as a Christian, you might be. If you just say, well, you just have to suffer this, and you're not going to provide any route forward for that believer to experience some type of relief. Like, I think that that's kind of, kind of wrongheaded. And so I encourage people. that's um kind of kind of wrong-headed and so i encourage people no i so appreciate that i i've often said if you are calling somebody else to a really difficult challenging path that you

see is the best path of discipleship man you better be committed to that person you better be yeah create a community where they can flourish to the best of their possibility and yeah even picking up your cross denying yourself that really is the main point seems to be sacrificing yourself for the good of others like jesus giving you know taking on this hard road so that he can sacrifice you know so it's not really talking maybe the thorn in the flesh passage might be a little yeah it Yeah, it might be. Yeah. Yeah.

You might have to endure some ailment, you know, whatever. But yeah, picking up your cross is more about serving others through sacrifice. Yeah. And so that's my biggest. Yeah. I was going to ask you, but you said it. You're not sure if you'll be male or female in heaven. I almost felt like that was almost too personal.

I don't know. But that's it. So you're like, I don't know how this is going to work. It's going to be working out. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know, but it's going to be okay. And that's how I've always been. Because people say, well, God's intention.

And when they keep on saying God's intention, I give them the words of Job. Like, do you speak for God? Are you communicating with him like ear to ear? Because, you know, Job's friends get chastised at the end. And that's what I think a lot of people forget about. They hear Job repenting and they forget that the friends were not in the right boat in that situation. repenting and they forget that the friends were not in the right in the right boat in that situation and so if you're just coming along a trans person not knowing their story not knowing anything and and just saying like you need to repent because god this is god's punishment on

you um you know i don't think that's how jesus would have approached a trans person yeah um i don't i don't think so and so yeah i don't know if i'm going to be male or female but it's going to be okay because it's going to be you know perfect so which is where the hope of all that's where all of our hopes should be kind of like you know yeah is he going to judge this person this person in or out or whatever it's like at the end of the day it's genesis 18 the judge of the world will do what is right god will put the creation the way he sees best. The specifics of how we want that to come about are secondary, a distant secondary, a rock solid. And the fact that he will put it together. Amen. Yeah. No, I love that.

And that's what gives me the most hope every day. Cause like you said, or like I said earlier, dysphoria won't always go away. It's sadly, my sister is autistic. It's something she's going to have to live with forever through this life and dysphoria is kind of the thing that i have to work for work through in this life and the thing that gives me hope always is looking towards you know what's in store for the future so that's a great word to end on addy thank you so so much for being on the show and uh yeah uh wish you the best in your political adventures. That's a whole nother podcast that I would love. Yeah, I know. Thanks so much for being

on the Belgian hour. I really appreciate it. Thank you.