Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep875: It’s Not Your Turn: Dr. Heather Thompson Day

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

Dr. Heather Thompson Day is associate professor of communication at Colorado Christian University and an interdenominational speaker and contributor for Religion News Service, Newsweek, and the Barna Group. She runs an online community called I'm That Wife and is the author of six books, including Confessions of a Christian Wife, How to Feed the Mediavore, and the forthcoming It’s Not Your Turn. She resides in Littleton, Colorado, with her husband and their three children. In this episode, Heather and I talk about...pretty much everything. But we also discuss her forthcoming book It’s Not Your Turn, which helps us to respond well to those times when it seems like everyone else is flourishing in their gifts and seeing success--and you’re not. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest on today's show is Dr. Heather Thompson Day. Heather is Associate Professor of Communication and Rhetoric at Colorado Christian University. She has an MA and a PhD from Andrews University. She's the author of several books, including Confessions of a Christian Wife and How to Read the Mediavor, and her yet-to-be-released book, It's Not Your Turn, which is the book that we talk about kind of throughout this podcast. This podcast was really hard to find a title for because Heather and I just had kind of a free-flowing conversation about all kinds of things, including communication and rhetoric and teaching. And her book, It's Not Your Turn, which sounds like a fascinating book.

We talk about the church. We talk about media. We talk about Gen Z and all kinds of stuff. It was just kind of a rolling conversation and is one of those conversations that just, I just enjoyed it so much that towards the end, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm recording a podcast. You know, one of those kinds of conversations. So super excited about it. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Heather is always, always just an interesting, lively, fun, wise person to talk to. And I'm excited for you to listen in on our conversation. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash the allgen raw. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month. All the info is in the show notes. And please, please leave an honest review of this show. I often forget to mention that, but reviews do help let people know about it. And I do mean honest review. If you believe this show is garbage and worth one star, then please right now go leave a one-star review. If you think it's three or four stars or maybe even five stars, then please do give an honest

review and let people know about the show. And feel free to share it on your social media platforms as well. If you're like, hey, I like the show. I can't support you financially, but hey, I would love to tell others about it and leave a review. That actually is a huge help for letting people know about theology in the world. All right, without further ado, let's get to know the one and only Dr. Heather Thompson-Dick. Hey, Heather, welcome back to Theology in the Raw. How are you doing? Man, I am so good. Happy to be here. So I want to jump right in with this tweet you have pinned on your profile. Okay. I've never done this before, like opened up with like a tweet somebody said as a launching pad, but this tweet,

it's just like, it's so amazing. So I'm going to read it and I want to hear the backstory on this. You said, I had a student once who entered college with a 1.2 GPA. She finished with honors and a full ride scholarship to her next school. She was the same person she was in high school. Only difference was that in college for the first time in her life, she had a bed. And that tweet got over 441,000 likes, which is, I mean, the definition of something going viral. Can you share the backstory on that? I've always wondered like, man, who is this person? I want to expand on that tweet and hear the whole story about what happened. Yeah. So actually, can I tell you, when I started my new job at Colorado Christian University, my dean, when he introduced me to all of the university

faculty, he read that tweet. Really? So I feel as though I'm happy when people share that tweet, because I feel as though it's very symbolic of how I enter the classroom and how I engage with students. But that was from when I was at a community college in southwest Michigan. And that student was honestly a phenomenal student by the time I had her in college. Apparently, she had entered in on a grant system and provisional admit. And then she told me her story and she, she literally said, I have never had a bed until I showed up here in our beautiful dorms. And she actually, she did a speech to all of our class and she said, I slept on the floor next to roaches. That's the backdrop by which I entered a college education.

And I never thought I could even do school, but her life and she's the one that made that connection. She said, having a bed changed how I saw everything else. And then she ended up with a full ride. I think she went to Western Michigan University after her two years at the community college. You say this is symbolic of how you enter the classroom. Can you can you expand on that? Like, what is that? Yeah. So here's what I've discovered. And I teach communication classes. So I get to have a lot of heart to heart conversations in a collective setting. And something I've discovered, and now I'm very mindful of it when I enter the classroom is, yes, we may all be at the exact same place at the exact same time at the exact same school, but we have not come from the same places. And I should never assume that my backdrop background, which for me,

you know, I was raised in a very spiritual, my dad was an evangelist, very loving environment, wonderful cookie cutter, you know, parents and family. My sister was like, didn't even bully me. She was like this wonderful big sister who adored me. And so that's the backdrop that I enter rooms with, right? And there's people, when we talk about controversial conversations, or let's talk about God, when we talk about how do you see God, there are people that it's very difficult for them to believe that there is a loving God because of the life that they've lived. for them to believe that there was a loving God because of the life that they lived. And it's been very helpful for me to just rewind and say, suspend all judgment. I have no idea where this person is coming from. Let me tell you one more story, actually, a student, and this really drives it home. I had a student come into class late, and this is when I first started teaching. And back then I used to say things when people came in late, I'd say something, I'd make a joke

like, Oh, thanks for joining us. Glad you could fit us in or something like that. And then they'd sit down. He comes in late and I, I was about to make a joke and I didn't. And I, I just, for whatever reason, I felt like I, I shouldn't. So I didn't say anything. He sat down, class goes 90 minutes past at the end of class. He comes up to me and he says, Hey, I just want you to know, I'm really sorry. I was late. And I said, Oh, it's okay. Don't worry about it. He goes, my mom died this morning and I put her in the ambulance, her body. And I didn't know where to go. It's going to make me cry. And he said, I didn't know where to go. And so I came here. And so I thought, Oh my God, like what if I had said, thanks for joining us or made some joke as a teacher, right. To control my

room and make sure nobody's falling asleep, whatever. And I missed the context by which he was walking into the room, which for him obviously was part of routine, but perhaps even just a safe space where he felt like I have no idea where to go right now. So let me do it. And I took him to my office and he just sat with me for probably the rest of the day in my office, just sat there. We didn't talk. He just sat. So I have learned as a teacher that just because we end up at the same conference or the same church, right, or whatever, it doesn't mean that we have come from the same spaces. Yeah.

Dude, that's so, oh my gosh. I don't know what to say in response to that. That's, I took a, when I was a professor at Cedarville University, this is 10, 12 years ago, a colleague of mine ran a course called An Introduction to Urban Ministry. Professor, Dr. Jeff Cook, if anybody out there knows that name. And this guy was just a real deal. He would lead. So as part of the class, you would have to live, um, homeless over the weekend, right? Oh, wow. Yeah. He would make

them dumpster dive. You wouldn't give them food. They would have to go beg for money so that they can see the shame of when, you know, suburban, suburban soccer moms try not to make eye contact with you when they're going to the gas station, just so you feel just the other side, you know? And I remember at the beginning of the class, so I, as a professor, I took the class because I was like, all these students, he had this like cult following of students that they were just like, their world was turned inside out, you know? And I don't know, there's so many stories I can share from that, but the point of bringing that up is I remember in the class, him talking about, you know, people that are raised in sometimes urban or rougher contexts, you know, they, they may show up to school on Monday morning and fall asleep during class. And it's like, you have to ask the question, why?

Maybe they're lazy. Um, maybe they were up all night watching movies or maybe their mom's boyfriend was, you know, physically and sexually abusive and they had to kind of stay up to stay clear of him. So they come in exhausted because their weekend was not like your weekend, you know? And it's like, wow, I, I, gosh, you know, like I, I've just never, it's so, so easy to assume that your context is just like everybody else's. Like you said, loving family. I grew up in a loving family, divorced, but still very loving. But like, you know, like my mom taught me, my mom was one of the hardest working humans I know, still is. Like work three jobs, when my

parents got divorced, my mom was working three jobs, you know, on my 16th birthday. Well, My mom was working three jobs, you know, on my 16th birthday. Well, prior to my 16th birthday, she took me around to pick up 15 job applications so that I can I can be working the day I turned 16, the legal age to work in California at that time, you know. And so I worked at Burger King eight hours on my 16th birthday, came home exhausted, sleep. And so I was raised with this hard work environment. That's not everybody else. Maybe somebody else wasn't raised in that environment. So I should not expect people to have, well, just go get it. Just go work hard and just go get the job. Well, some people were never taught how to go fill out an application and give it to the manager and not the, you know, 15 year old at the front desk, whatever. And like, I don't know, it's just throughout life that I've learned, tried to learn to not project my context, my background on everybody else. Cause that's just, it's just,

it's probably why we're so polarized today in society. People just. Right. And we should add that context is, they say, one of the most powerful factors and motivators in that Princeton study. I'm rereading the tipping point right now. And in the tipping point, he talks about that Princeton study where he has the seminary students, and they're supposed to go give some type of sermon. and they prime them with three different things that happen before they give the sermon. And then they want them to walk past a person in an alley who is moaning and asking for help as they literally go to preach the good Samaritan. Right. And it's like 60% of the seminary students walk right past the moaning person crying for help in an alley on their way to preach the good Samaritan. And the only people who stopped were the people who they primed before by saying, Hey, you're going to get there early. You're going to have an extra few minutes. So if you told somebody you're going to be late, a good hearted, normal Christian, wonderful person walked right past somebody who was in suffering because context matters.

I'm late. I can't stop. Yeah. Right. And so I have actually in the tipping point, he says this too. He says a child from a good family in a bad neighborhood will do worse than a child from a bad family in a good neighborhood. The actual neighborhood context matters more. And that is so powerful for me to remember. Should I ever get high and mighty and self-righteous and toity about, well, how can somebody not see this? Look at the context by which I enter situations often. From a place, I would say, of privilege, just of having a loving home. There's so much about just our parents that we can't control that set us up for the rest of our trajectory. Yeah.

So you said you're raised in a loving home, religious home. Socioeconomically, were you like middle class, upper middle class? No, we were definitely. I didn't realize we were poor, I don't think. But you know what? Here's what, like social media wasn't a thing. Right. So I don't know if you look at your childhood and it's like, I didn't see all these gorgeous, beautiful other 13 year year olds I saw a lot of people wearing Winnie the Pooh t-shirts just like me from Walmart in my class so I never realized looking back I'm like oh we ate waffles for dinner a lot or we ate frozen pizza all the time or my mom would get a big pancake mix we were definitely lower class yeah, yeah, look, my context was interesting.

It was, I was, yeah, I would say lower middle class. It's hard to like quantify that. But we, yeah, we didn't have a lot of money. I remember I had one pair of jeans that didn't have holes in them. Back when holes in jeans were not cool. Like it showed that you're poor white trash, right? And I had one pair that didn't have holes. Um, and I had one, I had all these obscure, like Kmart off brand shirts, but I had one town and country shirt back then town and country was like the cool brand, you

know? And I had one pair of shoes that weren't like, um, Oh, I forget the Kmart brand like off. So I had this, this like i had one outfit that was somewhat decent looking i remember every every day every like once a week i'd wear that to school and i felt i felt like a king you know but i i was raised so i was raised more like a poor white kid in a largely either poor white or hispanic. But the elementary school I went to was a complete mix of rich white kids and a poorer kind of Hispanic community. But I was a poor white kid in the Hispanic community. A lot of my friends were the rich white kids. So it's this weird mix. Like I'd always cross the tracks, so to speak, in this neighborhood. It wasn't that far away, but like

these huge homes and that was not my neighborhood. But like you said, I didn't even think, I don't know. It was just, that was just life. I didn't think about it. You know, I don't think it was so obvious the comparison like it is for young people today. Yeah. Because it's in their bedroom. Like you're constantly scrolling past and it's, I mean, there's a whole other conversation, but like people just are so much more beautiful younger than they ever were. I just posted this picture I found in myself in middle school. I had like a giant, I mean, I look horrible, giant Bella, big Tamaguchi hanging from my waist. Right. When everybody had those giga pets or whatever, just a totally different time. And I was normal in my class. Like, I don't remember feeling ostracized for the way I looked, but I

look back and I'm like, wow, this was like, these were rough times. Like these were, these were tough days, but it was normal. I think we talked about social media, but last time you have on the sociology, psychology of especially Gen Z that is just, this is all they've known. Like, is it disastrous or is it something we're just going to have to kind of accommodate to? I think it's both. I think that there's some horrible things. Like we know that it increases our rates of depression and anxiety. Okay. So we have to be aware of that. And young people need to be aware of that and monitor their social media use. I mean, everybody watched The Social Dilemma.

Yeah. Right? And was like, it was like back in the 90s where you burned all your non-Christian CDs. Everybody watched The Social Dilemma and shut down all their social media accounts. We're like, I'm done. I don't think that that's practical just because there's, I mean, I really believe that the gospel should be shared to the ends of the earth. And it's such an incredible way. And you know this as a writer, the fact that we can write a post that reaches thousands of people in seconds to me is unbelievable the honor of having that

be a part of my regular life and so i want to steward that really well so i think that there's great things it's changed the power dynamic so there's this really great book um is it henry tims it's called new power have you read it no i didn't write that down it's a really good book it's called new power and it's all about how the old power systems of the world have really had to shift because of grassroots social media type thinking. So essentially, the idea is young people today, Generation Z, all believe in this participation model, meaning what are you talking about? So let's use church as a context for us. That makes sense. We tell young people to come sit down in our church and be quiet and listen and then go home. And they're like, what are you talking about? Like I can watch this is us and live tweet my thoughts and have like 50 people join me. Everything that they experience is participatory and their voice always matters. And we train, what do we tell them? You matter. Your voice matters.

Don't forget your voice, right? And so then in the church, we tell them to sit down and be quiet. And so like we see our classrooms have shifted. It used to be rows where you look forward at the teacher. Now you're in little pods where you talk in your group. It's definitely changed. And I think that there's some really good things in that. Yeah.

Do you think, so I've thought about this a lot in the last few years when it comes to just broader church structures, like in a post-internet world when it's so normal for people to watch something and respond, watch something and respond. And sometimes the responses, you know, the YouTube comments are the most annoying thing in the world, but that's just that the world people live in is, it is dialogical. So does that at least raise the question, should we keep a monological form of church where people come, sit, listen, and there's no avenue of response? Like, I just wonder if we need to explore different forms of teaching that resonates with kind of the society that everybody's actually living in, you know, because it does seem kind of a little bit like just,

I don't want to say tone. I don't want to speak too negatively of it. I just wonder, like, if the question should be raised, like we're doing something in church that was formed and worked really well in a pre-internet world when people, you know, back in the 1800s, people on a Friday night date night would go listen to a three-hour speech, you know? Right. Now, what other form do you not, like you said, like not respond, whether you're live tweeting or commenting or even you can read a news article and there's always a comment box or something.

Like, I just wonder if we need more dialogue in churches. I mean, I think, I think we do here's, I read this really great study that said that what changed students math scores or reading scores was working with a mentor, even if that mentor knew nothing about math or reading. So sitting down with somebody older than you and working out a problem, even if that person had a horrible aptitude for math and reading, still improve the student's math and reading scores. So as a church body, I think we have no choice but to make sure we are really practicing small group discipleship. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I think youth groups, I'm not a youth expert, but it seems like that kind of message

breakup into small groups is kind of a... Preston, so I had a student, I had my students for the end of the semester in my persuasion class. They had to write a seminar that they would either give to church leaders or to Generation Z on either what they would want to see things change or how they wish their generation would stay in church. Right. One of the students said, and this blew my mind. One of the students said, and this blew my mind, he said, what they do in church is they got me there by having pizza parties and social game nights and youth group. And it was fantastic. And then all of a sudden I grew up and they want me to sit down and there's no more pizza and there's no more socialization and there's no more relationship.

And for some reason, I'd never thought of it that way before, that the way we get you in isn't at all what you experience as we transition. And then let's get into we are the loneliest generation in U.S. history. Yeah. Right? More baby boomers die of suicide today than car accidents. We are an incredibly lonely culture. And what space should be the place of all connection and relationship? I believe the gospel and the church.

So I think we have to do something different. But who am I? No, well, you have a PhD in communication. That's true. So as much as communication is part of church, I think you keep speaking, keep preaching, Heather. Yeah, no, I mean, for me personally, I feel like this resonates with most people I talk to. It's that sense of belonging, of knowing and being known that is the main draw to church now. I think it used to be like powerful sermons and worship, and that might still work for some. But I think the people that are becoming lonely, isolated, disenchanted, or de-churched or unchurched it's like it's it's the sense of belonging that is the main draw i mean why so so we we live in a high like lds population you know um and i don't know if you've ever been to an lds church service or whatever they're not the most thrilling um events you know like i don't i don't think the l the lds church is drawing people because their

their services are just so dynamic. And I think my LDS friends would say, they would laugh and say, you're totally right. What draws people to the LDS church? This profound sense of belonging. Like, goodness gracious. So my neighborhood that I live in is probably 50% LDS. And they are all constantly at each other's houses. They know each other.

They're volleyball Tuesday nights, this, that. I mean, it's like this rich sense of local community because it's like a parish model so that you don't have to shop around for your favorite LDS. It's just like, well, that's where you go. And you don't ask the question, well, do I like the service? Like, that's not a question that comes up. Like, well, I like the service over there better. It's like, no, that's my war.

That's where I go. But it's the communal sense of belonging that seems to be that powerful, powerful draw to the LDS church. And part of me is a little like, man, I think, I just wonder if the evangelical church had a, it will never happen. It can't happen. We're way too independent.

And I don't know, it's, but what if, like, what if we had that kind of thing to go along with, you know, the gospel and salvation and all these things, all these theological truths. But yeah, I experienced it a little bit when I was in Scotland, because Scotland is on that kind of parish model. So you do have, you know have people that they live together. They typically shop in the same area and they go to church together. But now it's a little more of a post-Christian world. So it's a little different.

And I think when, in the tipping point, Gladwell talks about John Wesley when he started the Methodist movement, that he wasn't this fantastic orator or preacher. What he was was a master of small group. So when he would move into a town or city, he would never leave without setting up groups of people that they could socialize and operate in who had come to the gospel. And when he left, those groups would multiply in his absence. And again, in the book, New Power, it says, it's not a movement unless it moves without you. And so many of what we see, I think,

in some of our mega churches is, is it a movement or is it like around this speaker? Because if it's not moving without the speaker, it's not a movement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're learning that the hard way these days. Let's talk about your book that's about to come out. It's Not Your Turn. It's the title of the book. Did you come up with that title? I came up with that title. It's something I said to myself for years.

I forgot to write down the subtitle. What to do while you wait for your breakthrough. Okay, so give us the elevator pitch, and then maybe we'll kind of go through various layers of it. I'm going to keep it really short. Here's the elevator pitch. I have learned that who you are when it's not your turn is more important than who you will be when it is. Wow. That's the elevator pitch. Who we are, everybody, let's use podcasting because we're on a podcast. Everybody will turn the podcast mic on for thousands of listeners. Everybody gets on the podcast mic on for thousands of listeners. Everybody gets on the stage when thousands of people are clapping for you and cheering for you.

Who are the people that are willing to turn the mic on for five people or stand on the stage and say what they believe to be true in their heart for six people who are listening? My friend Justin Ku is a pretty large Christian YouTuber. And he said, when people ask him, I want to start a YouTube channel, what do I do? He says, be willing to create 100 pieces of content for less than 100 views. And if you aren't willing to do that, don't start a YouTube channel. That's great. I love that. That's great. I do too. I've been saying it ever since he said it last week. So I just really believe like God is looking for a generation of people who will show up because they feel called to it, not because of the affirmation that they're getting and who I am, the decisions and the choices I make based on integrity when nobody cares, when nobody is clapping for me, when, when, if I didn't show up,

nobody would even notice. I think those are actually the moments where God is like, well done. And now I can trust you with more. Do you feel like you, you said you've learned, is this a part of your own journey where you felt like you were in that spot? It felt like it, man. I, so I always wanted to be a professor and I was, if you know the adjunct game, those who are in academia, you know, adjunct, I mean, I was adjunct to get like six different schools, couldn't get hired full time. And you know, I mean, I was adjuncting at like six different schools,

couldn't get hired full time. And you guys, I never took a summer off. I went from, from my freshman year of college, 2005, all the way through when I graduated with my PhD, I never took a summer off. I poured myself into education. I thought because I'm doing the right things and making the right choices, it's just going to open for me. And it didn't. And I couldn't get a job so poor for my daughter's first birthday. My car, I was trying to buy all the stuff for her party. And I, I bought all the ingredients for food and stuff. And then I realized I forgot paper party plates. And so I went back to the, to the grocery store to get the party plates. And my card was declined on $2 and like 15 cents. And I just remember driving home with my husband in total science silence. Here I am in a PhD program to adjuncting feeling very important, right? Teaching college molding and shaping young minds. And I don't have $2 and 56 cents and all of my

education and the cashier just totally evaporated when she said, ma'am, your card is declined. Right. And so at this exact same time, one of my best friends who I have been best friends with since third grade called me and she said, Heather, you're not going to believe it. And I was like, what? She was like, I got hired by NASA. And I was like, wow, that I'm choking. Right. I'm like, that is so great. And I am so happy for you. And I was happy for her, but I was also sad for myself. Yeah. And so I just like, that is so great. And I am so happy for you. And I was happy for her, but I was also sad for myself. And so I just realized, hey, these two things can coexist. I can be happy and join in your joy.

By the way, that's how we build trust. We build trust by joining in other people's joy. I can join in your joy and be happy for you while at the same time realizing, man, like God, I thought, where's my testimony? I thought you turned the mess into a message. Where's my message? So I kind of was stuck in that place for several years of just feeling like, I'm, you know what, I'm going to be, I'm going to shut up and I'm going to clap for everybody else. And that's what I decided to do. And then things did change for me, but it was like

a seven year process. Yeah. That's so good. Gosh, I can resonate with that to some extent. Yeah. Um, I got some good breaks kind of early on, but it was still, I'm well, I remember in my PhD program feeling like the stupidest person in the room, like the village idiot. Like, how did you, how did I get in here? These guys are just like, you know, they've been speaking Latin since they're like 10 years old and doing this, you know, and here I am. I went to, you know, the master's seminary, which doesn't, no one outside that circle knows, you know, like what that is. I thought my professors, good professors, you know, and good godly men, most of them.

But yeah, you go over to, in like a real academic context and they're like, you went where? Like, they looked at my transcripts and they're like, some of my classes, like the pastor's home and how to help your wife to submit to you and stuff. And it's like, wait, you didn't at least go to like, you know, they know like Fuller, Gordon Conwell, and then Harvard, Duke, Yale, like, wait, where did you go? Like, was it like Fulton? No, no, Fuller. No, no, no. So I just felt like playing catch up, you know, like, gosh, I always felt like.

And there's PhD students that are publishing, you know, high, you know, peer reviewed journal articles. I'm like, man, what would that be like to actually have a journal article published, you know? So, yeah, that's, um, I love that. Just so yeah, early on, it was actually John MacArthur who said, um, and, uh, worry about the depth of your ministry and God will take care of the breadth of your ministry. And my audience knows, you know, I, I, I'm not a massive follower of MacArthur. We would disagree probably on many things. But you can love him or hate him, and that's just such a true statement.

I feel like I learned that early on in seminary. Gosh, I just wonder. I think every generation struggles with this. I just wonder if it's especially hard for a Gen Z generation when you can post a funny cat video, get a million views, or do a TikTok thing. And things can just kind of go viral out of nowhere. So you're growing up in an environment where if you're 17 and don't have a million TikTok followers or something like that can be seen as abnormal. But in what universe do 17 or 19 year olds, should they expect to have like a massive platform for whatever? But that, that seems to be more the norm in that world, right? Would you, I mean, you teach college students, is that? I totally agree with you. I think it's,

this is the, so generation Z is the first generation. And this is from Barna. They're the first generation that when you ask them, like, what do you, what's the goal for your life? 20 years from now, 10 years from now, where do you see yourself? Family doesn't even crack the top three. So every, even millennials, every other generation used to say, oh, well, I hope I'm married. And yeah, I want to go to school and I want to be happy. This generation only says, I want to get my education and I hope I'm successful. And they're just not worried about family. Because everything that they see is that if I'm not successful, then I don't matter.

Is it also the generation that has the highest percentage of people who assume they're going to be famous when they grow up or something? I thought I heard that. I feel like I've read that too. I don't want to study or whatever, but I feel like I just wrote something about this. So I should remember about the number, the percent. It's a high percentage. I'm not gonna say all of them, but it was a high percentage of people that are waiting on their 15 minutes. I just wrote about this for something else. Really? Okay. Yeah. Where do you write for? just wrote about this for something else. Really? Okay. Yeah. What do you write for? Well, I was writing about it for my podcast that's going to come out in July, end of June.

And you write for Christianity Today too, right? Sometimes I write for Newsweek. I've written for the Barna Group. I've contributed for Christianity Today, for Plough quarterly journal. For Plough Quarterly Journal. Yeah. Do you like writing or speaking more or both? So my whole life, I was, and this is where all of my angsty emotions came from, because in third grade, I've always just wanted to be a writer. Okay. That was my, my dream was to be a bestselling author. And looking back, I feel like that was a unique dream for like a nine year old. But I used to tell everybody, I don't want a famous face.

I want a famous name. I want to be able to write books. You know, you grew up reading C.S. Lewis and all these great Christian writers. And I'm like, oh, I just want to be that. And then it didn't happen for me. So it wasn't my turn. Do you find, I mean, I've heard people saying that like writing traditional books is going to just fall by the wayside, whatever. I think with the introduction of like e-books, people thought print books would go out of style, but we have not seen that happen.

But do you feel like writing traditional books and reading traditional books will lessen or do you feel like these will always be here to stay? Or is it hard to predict? We know that in COVID book sales went up. Yeah. So I, I'm a huge, and I think that this generation, even more so maybe than reading a physical book, we'll listen to an audible. Right. Oh yeah. So I don't know that it's going to go away. I don't, I, but you know, I'm biased.

Obviously I love reading and I encourage all my students to be reading and they probably wouldn't say it to my face if they were like, this is stupid and boring. So maybe I don't have a good pulse on that conversation. what was it something about how it's on the tip of my tongue no it was a book i was reading oh it was a it was a neil postman's amusing yourselves abusing ourselves okay okay where he said like like there's no replacement for uh the benefit of actually of reading a print book versus watching something or even listening to something like it teaches that kind of linear kind of logical thinking. It helps sustain concentration. The physicality of the book does like, there's so much wrapped up in the actual reading of a

tangible book that is still the best way to kind of shape our minds and you retain a lot more and all these things. And I mean, he wrote that, what was it? 1985, I think. Um, and I just wonder like, yeah, it's, and even today, obviously, I mean, he was, he, he wrote that before social media and yeah, I just, it just, there's such a, my point is, I think there's such a need to make sure we discipline ourselves to read actual books and even electronic books or audio books. I, I, is it true? I think you still, I mean, everybody's different, but I think you, you still retain less generally speaking, or is that? Yeah. I just read a book about this, about the internet, um, and how the internet, do you know what I'm talking about? It's a big book. And the whole conversation is about how the internet has changed our brains. And I can't think of it right now.

But in that book, he talks about, yeah, what you're saying right now, which is that reading is this primal, really beautiful way to organize your thoughts and to create deep thinking and to create deep understanding. Reading cannot be topped. And how, because of the internet and the book it talks about, our eyes actually like dart around pages now because of the scroll. I noticed myself. I try to, and I don't do this all the time. Oh my gosh. I try to read with the internet off and my phone away from me. I don't do it all the time, but

because it's just so, I'll check if my phone's there, I will grab it every five minutes. But did you not, like, I used to be able to just sit down and read a book in a day. I can't, it's very difficult for me to do that now. And I do think it's because of social media and how it's changed our brains. You like, I'm going to check my email or, or guess what? I have a little phone on my wrist and I watch and it buzzes and I'm like, Oh, got to check that. Right. So we're in this constant state of, I'm so important. So many people are trying to get ahold of me. I don't know that I have time to sit down and read this book. Yeah. I, I've, and yeah, I'm, I do this probably less than I like, like less than 50% of the time, but yeah, I, if I'm doing

like, uh, like deep work, if I'm doing writing or deep thinking, or if I'm really trying to engage and digest a chapter of a book, I have to shut down my computer, internet off, text off, even shut down my phone sometimes. My wife doesn't love that all the time. She's like, pick up your phone. I'm reading. Right, right. Yeah, meanwhile, you forgot to pick up the kids. I'm reading. Yeah. Meanwhile, you forgot to pick up the kids or something. Um, um, yeah, it's just, it's, we have to be vigilant to remove distractions in such a distracted world. I'm another question. I, I, I love the fact that you're an expert in communication because I've always kind of communication ish questions that I, yeah, I, I, um, I'm glad I have an expert on. Um, okay. So we live in a sound bite culture, uh, tweets and posts and everything short and snippy and people read the news headline without reading the actual article and, um, everything's very

clickbaity headlining. Right. Okay. So that's, that. Okay, so that's kind of training us to not think deeply, to not actually engage. However, I think deep down, people are longing for something more thoughtful, long form, and in depth. And my hope is that this seems to be this rise in long form podcasts.

I think about the most popular podcaster is joe rogan right who will have a three and a half hour conversation with like a neuroscientist about whatever and then a three-hour conversation with a comedian buddy where they're just cutting up but but that kind of that should break all the rules don't ever do a three-hour episode and yet he does that. And I just wonder, here's my hope is that this more long form podcast, this rise in long form podcast is showing that deep down people do want more thoughtfulness, more like to get beyond the soundbite, you know, um, am I onto anything there? Is that a false hope or have you thought through kind of why podcasts have become so popular? Well, I think, I think it's popular.

I know for myself because I can play it while I'm driving into work. Right. So I can play it while I'm doing the dishes or so I'm able to take in information, which I think is important to this generation. We love to be educated on things, but while I'm also doing X, Y, and Z. Yeah. Which is that good? I mean, you know, you're setting me up that, you know, all the research says there's no such thing as multitask. I actually, where did I just, yeah. Even that word multitask is a new, is that it's in the book contagious. I think Word multitask is a new, is that it's in the book contagious. I think, um, the word multitask like only has been around for like 50 years. There's, there's just, it's not even actually possible. Like you could only do one thing or the other. You can't, the human brain can only

focus on one thing at a time. What about driving though? Cause aren't there like, right. Cause it feels autopilot, right? All of a sudden I I'm just there. How did I get here? Right. Cause it feels autopilot. Right. All of a sudden I, I'm just there. How did I get here? I don't know. Yeah. Cause I, I, I will, uh, yeah, I'll listen to podcasts or, um, or I'll have this app called Voxer where I'll kind of like, it's like a walkie talkie where I'll Vox like a 10 minute thought to somebody else. And when they have time, they'll Vox back. Oftentimes when I'm driving, that's when I will Vox people. And I feel like I am deep in thought while I'm driving, which is scary. Cause I'm like, how many people did I run over on the way home? But OK, so driving might be different.

But you're saying like if you're watching a movie and you're like tweeting somebody or something like that. Well, you could never. Think about that. Could you watch a movie and clean? No, but it is weird. There is something different for some reason with podcasts. I feel like I'm doing it. I'd have to see the stats on the retention rate to know if we really are. Somebody needs to do this study. Somebody listening, please conduct the study.

I listen to a decent amount of podcasts, but I feel like I don't retain. I feel like it's there somewhere. I get the general gist, but like, I couldn't repeat anything, but in the moment I feel like, Oh, I'm tracking. Yes. Yes. That's good. That stat, whatever. Then I shut it off. And 10 minutes later, I'm like, I don't, I hardly remember what I listened to. Are you like that too? Is that, that's not just me? Absolutely. But I feel like it just makes it, you know, it makes your drive go by so much better. I have a long commute to work. So I always listen to an audible book or a podcast on my drive into work because again, like my generation is obsessed with never wasting any time. So I always have to be taking in some type of information. So, so you're wait, so your generation, you're I'm a millennial. So that's So that's a millennial thing?

Yes, very much so Millennials are also Well, ours is just that we're more characteristic of passion So Generation Z has kind of swung back to the baby boomers In the sense that they saw my generation get massive student loan debts On degrees like feminism And where are they going to get a job in that right or women's issues whatever and so they're trying to be really cautious with the

choices that they make and they really want to be successful millennials my generation are like either i'm gonna make money doing this or i'll live in my van and i do it but i'm gonna be happy okay and that's how like right like we just swing by. I feel passionate about this, and that's why I'm here. Yeah. Which generation is the information junkie? Is that all of us today? I feel like there's, for me- What do you think?

It seems like it. It sounds noble, too. Any wasted second. I'll be in the shower, and I'll listen to a five-minute clip. Like, just, hey, I got to get more information. But I just wonder, there's got to be an unhealthy- Wait, what's your Enneagram clip. Like just, Hey, I gotta get more information, but I just wonder, is there's gotta be an enneagram. Now I need to know. I don't know. I'm either a one, three or a five. Um, you are totally a three. Oh wait, you're totally, you're totally a three. Okay. No, you are a three too. If you can't take

a shower without having to better yourself yeah that's a three what about so yeah so a good friend of mine who's like an intergram expert interviewed me on this podcast a year ago he says the best way to work he said you're without a doubt a one i'm like okay and people that know me well say you're not a one i can't stand ones and you're because i because i i love seeing things from other people's perspective like i love that and they're like that's not a one can't do that but i do right i do have a justice side to me when i'm eager to do the right thing because it's the right thing or say the right thing or stand for something when everybody else thinks it's the right thing or say the right thing or stand for something when everybody else thinks it's not the right thing. That's very one. That's very one.

But I could sit in my basement and read all these books behind me because I could sit here and just think and absorb and learn and never go outside and just, well, yeah, that's not true. But here's the question. What's the motivation for it? So for a three, I'm like that too. I have to, I read at least a book a month. I have to, but I have since the Enneagram, I thought, oh, that's what makes me a good person. And then I did the Enneagram. I said, oh, this is a weakness of mine that I have to constantly try to achieve better or more for myself. And so I've now I try to pull myself back from that and say, Heather, you are enough in Christ. And it's okay if you don't write another book or read another book, like God will love you no less. Now I'm trying to fully believe that. I think without a doubt, I used to be a three. You're in recovery. Yeah. But because now I'm just tired. Like I don't, I don't, I do not ever

need to get on a stage and speak again. I don't need to write another book. Like I don't need like, Ooh, I can get to whatever number, like, like the more books and expand my CV or like, I have zero desire or need for that. I think that's healthy or it's just burnt out. I don't know. Right. I would love to write a book if I feel like this needs to be written and I don't see anybody else saying this, this way or whatever. No, I think that's healthy.

Yeah. That's how you get to a healthy. I am working on that right now. Okay. So that could be a three, just a healthy three, or it could be a one. Yeah. That's how you get to a healthy. I am working on that right now. Okay. So that could be a three, just a healthy three, or it could be a one. Yes. Yeah. Or what about a five for me? It's like, I, I just want to figure something out out for myself, whether I publish my thoughts or not. I just want to know, like, I got all my arguments down. I've thought through it all. Um, I don't know. I don't know. Somebody said the Enneagram is like shades, right? So you might be a blue three. I might be a blue three and then there's pal blue and there's Navy blue and there's dark blue, but you're still,

and that was helpful for me to be like, okay. Cause there's certain things, like one of the things for threes is that you change based on the group you're with, and I don't resonate with that at all. I am very much comfortable being myself no matter what group I'm with. So that part I reject. But threes also are great teachers because they tend to tell people, if we see something in somebody, I always tell you. I will always pull my student aside after class and say, oh my goodness, that comment you made, I'm so proud of you, and I saw this in you. I love doing that. And threes also love connecting people. We love networking. So'm so proud of you. And I saw this in you. I love doing that. And threes also

love connecting people. We love networking. So those things I really see in myself. Yeah. See some of that, yeah. Some of that resonates. I feel like I often recognize when I see something in somebody else, oftentimes I forget to tell them or I'm like... That probably goes with being burned out. Yeah. I actually, uh, last summer, uh, man, I really was like in a, in a pretty bad place burned out. There was just so many things colliding and collapsing in and, and just layers of, of just challenges. So my board sent me on a three month sabbatical and. And that first time, I mean, I started school at 18, college, and didn't stop whether it's school, teaching,

working, since I didn't know. You are a three, Preston. Do not fight it. Just sit down next to me at the three table. That's a three. Just kidding. And I taught summer school every year too. Just more teaching, more stuff. so threes probably get burnt out pretty quickly. I know I, especially, you know what? And COVID is horrible. I will say though, there are some things that taught me that I don't know if I could have learned in another way. And one of them was that I have to prioritize my family above anything else. And I, my prayer, and I hope that I stand, somebody hold me accountable. I want to make sure that I never go back to the way I used to operate, which was if I got called for speaking engagement,

I always took it. And now in this, after COVID, I've just been like, no, like you can always find some other great person to speak. My kids have one mom and my primary responsibility is to my husband and to my children and whatever else happens after that from my wholeness of my family, I can fit in and I don't ever want to go back. And COVID definitely had me reevaluate my entire life. How many kids do you have? Three. How old?

Nine, eight and five. Oh wow. So that's prime. Yeah. Yeah. They definitely need your help. They do. Yeah. Yeah. And do you speak quite a bit or pre-COVID? Like do you get? A lot. I get probably three calls a week. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And so I used to, I would be gone. This is embarrassing to even say out loud, but I would have been gone like every weekend if I, if you called me to come speak. Yeah, absolutely. And I would have said, well, the Lord has called to my husband and my kids. Right. And now I've realized, no, the Lord's primary calling for me because of the choices I've made is to my family. Yeah. And that is my

primary ministry and everything else can come out of the wholeness of where I am there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I definitely used to be a three. I don't know if I am. Can you, can you change like that? Because of the Enneagram, I feel like I've changed and it's because it pointed out to me that the things, literally all the things I thought were my strengths, I've realized from the Enneagram were my weaknesses. And I've now really tried to be, I definitely, I don't know if you relate to this. I definitely, part of the core thing of threes is trying to achieve God's love.

And I look back on my faith journey and I'm like, yeah, that is absolutely. The reason I did so much is because I was trying to prove to God that I was worthy of his love. And now I've come to a place in the last year where I just realized, oh, God loves me. And it's not about what I achieve. Even saying that out loud is very difficult for my brain to accept, even though I know it's true. Your denominational, it's your Seventh-day Adventist. Adventist, yeah, yeah. yeah does that denomination does it lean

more on like grace or works like if it was going to struggle in one area is there you know each denomination kind of has its this is the big this is the big conversation and because i think millennial young adult adventists are just very very different than their parents like i will say this for me c.s le. Lewis says Christianity is this house and there's all these different rooms. And my Adventism is the room that raised me and the room that I grew up in. Especially, I'll say this for minorities.

My grandma, my Nana was a single mom to 10 kids, black in the inner city of Boston. Every single one of her kids are college educated. That is absolutely because of the Adventist room. Adventism has a very high aptitude for education. You, everybody who's Adventist, that's why we have so many hospitals. I think we're one of the largest hospitals, organizations in the nation and schools, parochial school systems in the nation, as far as evangelicals, but we are big into education and medical. And so there's certain things that I feel like that's what I recognize from that room. OK, though. I hate to speak for all Adventists.

I do think that there were certain things in the room that caused me to believe I had to keep working in order for. And now lately I've been like, wait, like it is the cross. It is finished. Now, lately, I've been like, wait, like it is the cross. It is finished. Like it's finished. Yeah. Right. And I get to just be a daughter of God, regardless of what I achieve for him. And that is a beautiful thing that I'm so grateful that I've that I've discovered. And I hate to say, oh, it's because of my Adventism. But sure. I mean, did that room shape me? Absolutely. Yeah. So probably for the wonderful things and the bad things. me? Absolutely. So probably for the wonderful things and the bad things. So, so especially if you're, if you are a three and there is more of a hard work kind of society, whether it's a religious society or family society, culture or whatever, I mean, that's good. That's just going to feed

off each other, right? I think so too. And I mean, there's probably tons of Adventists that would say she's crazy that that wasn't my experience at all. And that's okay. I don't have to speak for you. I might be a one wing nine. Cause I, I think not, not to keep going back to my Enneagram. No, I love this. You got my head really spitted, you know, I love the Enneagram. Okay. Yeah. I, I, I actually need to take like pay for an actual test. So my wife keeps telling me cause, um, she's taken it. My oldest daughter's taken it. My kids are really into it. So my oldest daughter's a clear four.

My wife is a seven. My second daughter's a seven. I think my third daughter's a five. And I resonate. Me and her, we can sit with a book and a cup of coffee for a few hours by ourselves

and we're totally fine. But I don't know if that's an introvert thing or an Enneagram thing. Because extrovert, introvert cuts across all numbers, right? Because I have become very introverted over the years. Here's what I need to know. What does your wife say that you are? Honestly, my whole family, they're all way into it. They can't figure me out

really I'm like I'm all of them I'm a 10 and I do have friends that say I refuse to be labeled and I have these pieces and all these different things and I say okay fine but even that that refusal to be labeled I don't have I'm fine if I fit a number I'm fine being late like I don't I don't have like that kind of like stubborn resistance. Don't put me in a box, you know, like if I'm a five, I'm a five, you know, whatever. Um, but yeah, I don't, I don't, uh, I don't know. I need to, I gotta take a test, figure it out. And there's wings, you know, where you can lean into one of the numbers that you touch. And I am definitely a three wing four. Is that where your creativity comes from? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And my dad's a four, my mom's a three. And you know, so here's the other thing about

the Enneagram that I think is really fascinating. I used to think that I was super open-minded and just had all these, cause I have friends from like all these different religious faiths and Muslim and sexual orientation, all these different things. And I love that. But then when they all did the Enneagram, I realized, oh, I keep making friends with the same numbers over and over and over and over again. I'm actually not that open-minded. I attract or I feel safe within certain numbers. And so that's blown my mind. Interesting. Interesting. Are your students into the Enneagram? Is this like a millennial thing, the Enneagram, or is Gen Z into it? It's like a Christian thing, right?

It is, yeah. It's like a big Christian culture thing where a bunch of my, I think they take it in their freshman orientation. Really? They do the test and then they have these personality questionnaires that they talk about with themselves of areas of weakness. Do you have a certain- Because the Enneagram is the first one that really looks at what does this look like in relationship to God? And that's why it's been so helpful for me.

Yeah, yeah. Shoot, I was going to say something. Oh, do you have a certain test you recommend? I don't. I did whatever free one. I Googled Enneagram test. I take it. And it gave me three types. And the second I read the three, I knew it was me because I had to close my office door. I was that embarrassed. When I saw the thing, I said, oh my goodness. It was things that I've

never, I didn't even recognize until I read somebody else saying it. And I said, oh, this is very clearly a personal thing. I'm closing my door and I'm going to take a moment. So I took a few online tests and I couldn't finish half of them because, and this might show my number, you tell me, but I'm like, I'd read, you know, when you walk into a room, do you want to A, dominate the room? No. Do you shrivel up in the corner? Well, no. They give me all these kind of binary like none of these fit like so i'm kind of like i guess i'll pick this one's the closest

of the three options but that doesn't i wouldn't do like that's not me so but does that show that like is that the not wanting to be put in a box kind of thing or i don't know no i think that that's a great critique. The one I took definitely had some more polar opposites. So I just picked what was closest, but then it gives you the three. And then I read the descriptions and I said, okay, I know that this sounds like me. Okay. Heather, let's go back to your book and then we'll, we'll close this out here. Cause we went on to like a 30 minute tangent. So your book, it's not your turn. So you, um, you gave us the gist, you know, you said that you have kind of in your own kind of trajectory and story, you know, uh, this is part of your journey.

Um, uh, if somebody is in that place, uh, feeling like it is their turn and it's not like, how would you just verbally kind of counsel them now? And I'm sure that, you know, what you're going to say is part of the book as well. Yeah. So I went to lunch one day with a friend of mine, um, who was a chaplain at Princeton and she had a really thriving ministry that she had done there. And I was telling her some of my frustration and she was like, you have to stop thinking that life is going to start when you get to this metaphorical there. She's like, Heather, like your life starts right here. And if you're anointed, you're anointed and your anointing doesn't be, she's like,

your anointing begins the day you believe you have it. And so I, I, that I got goosebumps as she said it. And I walked back to my class. I was teaching a class with like five people. It was after lunch, all their heads were down on their desks. They weren't interested. And I was like, no, I'm anointed to be here. And I'm going to teach this class as if this is the most important thing I will ever do in my entire life. And I did. And after class, this one girl came to my office and she said, I just want to thank

you. I can't even remember what I said, but she said something you said gave me the answer that I've been praying for for the last six months about what I should do after graduation. And I heard God very clearly when you said X, Y, and Z. And it was this moment she left. And I just said, what if I had phoned it in? Like, what if I had done what I wanted to do when their heads are on the desk and was just like, you know, I will hit a few points guys. And then you can go since you don't want to be here. And the only reason I took it up a notch is because I believed I was supposed to be there. Right. So my counsel that I would give to everybody is, and this is very like millennial and Gen Z, right. But I do believe your life matters because God matters and he created you and he created you with a purpose.

And so I think if we have, if we live life with purpose and intentionality, it doesn't, it's not about how many people that impacts one person is always enough. And if we really believe the gospel, my God, that has to be true. We should be able to do it for one person. And so let's live and walk into the spaces that God has called us with intentionality and with purpose. So a lot of it does have to do with kind of the, the numbers, like the platform, the size, the numbers, like, do you think that's a main factor in this whole struggle that people have thinking like, how come I haven't had my turn? Meaning like, where's my influence? I think that's what a lot of people, but I think turns

can look like different things. Like I have one of my best friends as I was writing this book for 10 years, we prayed for her to find a husband. And so that was the, that was her metaphorical turn. And she actually has said, I wish men would chase me down like jobs do. Her success wasn't a problem for her. She had tons of job opportunities, but she was looking for a partner and it wasn't coming. And so that was the turn that we were praying on. And this might upset some people. I don't know, but I told her, let's buy a tie. Okay. Let's buy a tie that one day your husband will wear at your wedding. And we're just going to believe it. And I just want you to hang it in your closet. When you get sad, we're going to pray like, Hey God, I believe that one day you're going to bring me somebody

who's going to wear this tie. And this was literally probably, she brought the tie. I think four years later, she is now in a relationship with somebody who I personally believe God has absolutely sent to her. He is a wonderful person who I hope will be the person that wears that tie. They've had these conversations, but it's like that took four years. And it's like, we go through life and we think, because it's not, I think this is social media too, because it's not happening instantly. We think it's not happening. And it's, where do you see that in scripture? You show me. Where's the instantaneous God that we think that we all deserve right now? Even Moses, right? Because we all saw the 10 commandments. He shows up at the Red Sea in the movie and he

raises his staff and the water parts immediately. And scripture says, that's not what happens. Scripture says that he sends a great wind and it takes all night what god could have done in a moment he chooses to do in a process we are concerned with the product god is always concerned with our process and you see that story over and over and over in scripture yeah and it didn't change the anointing they were still anointed joseph is still anointed in the pit and he's still anointed in the prison and just as anointed as he is in the palace. It didn't change his calling, but it takes time. That patience, that's something like, yeah, you hit the nail on the head, that instantaneous society. Yeah.

Things that happened a year ago seem like it was an eternity ago and things that happened last week and just everything is so fast paced in the moment. And you look back at scripture and, you know, they wandered a wilderness for 40 years. And then Moses, you know, another 40 years, you know, like there's such massive lengths of time, 400 years between the testaments, you know, 700 years between God's promise to David and, you know, the son of David,

Jesus being born. I mean, it's just these long stretches of time and how even, I mean, Romans talks about this, right? In several letters, just that patient endurance builds character and character builds hope. And like, I just, that's going to be a struggle, not just on younger people, anybody now in this internet world, right? That, that necessary long suffering, long endurance of whatever it is. I just, it's, I don't even have a category for that. Like 20 years going, waiting or, you know, putting the hard work into something or. And imagine like, you know, Abraham, 25 years, right? How long did it take for Abraham's hope to die? Year one, year two, year three, year four, year five. At what point does Abraham say, I actually, I just found this the last time I read scripture every year. The last time I went through scripture, I highlighted this because it says at the same time that Abraham is praying for a son, all of the, it's like 300 and something people are born in his own house. So there is birth all around him while he waits on the promise that God has promised to give to him. What do you think he's experiencing and feeling? And of course, for the Christian, we would say, whatever God doesn't make new or come through on, on this earth will be made new in heaven.

or come through on, on this earth will be made new in heaven. And that's the hope that we have. And is it enough? Is it enough to live? Does it, I think it's, is it Francis Chan who says this? Like, is it enough to live 80 horrible, awful years on this earth? How, like, how long are you pissed about that in heaven? 80 years, 90 years, a hundred years, 500 years. How long are you pissed? And he's going to give us eternity to work through everything that was horrible about this existence. And I just, I have to trust him and take him at his word on that.

That's a theological theme that I'm sure people have written on it, maybe are writing on it, but that just that renewed, that fresh perspective on biblical hope, you know, and just having that kind of future mindset, not, not, you know, in the past, it was kind of like, you're so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good or whatever, but like, I don't know when's the last time I've really meditated on that hope of eternity with God as the thing that kind of controls my day, controls my thinking, controls my desires, puts things into perspective. This really is a... Well, James says this, right? I mean, your life is what? But a vapor. And having that kind of contrast between life and this earth

and life and the new creation. In our fast-, that's in our fast paced world, man. I think we need more of that. So not easy. Heather, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. Again, the book is It's Not Your Turn comes out June 29th. I'm almost positive this, those of you listening to this podcast, it's, it's, it's before June 29th. I'm not, I haven't planned exactly when I'm going to release it, but Heather, thanks so much for your work here. You're just such a delight to talk to you. You too. Thanks for bantering around with me

with no real specific agenda. Somebody get me on Preston Sprinkles podcast, please. This is what I scream in my house. You're awesome. Thanks for coming on, Heather. We'll see you next time. I'm sure I'll have you on again at some point. All right. Bye.