Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep879: The Gospel and Battle Rap: Street Hymns

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Street Hymns is an Christian, artist, musician, leader, and a member an elite Battle Rap team called The IV Horseman. In this episode, we discuss how Street’s been able to embody the gospel in Battle Rap, reaching a culture where the gospel is not traditionally known. Upper middle class suburban versions of the gospel have little hope of making an impact in the urban context where Street and his team minister.  Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today my new friend, Street Hems, who is a battle rapper. We explain in great detail—not we, Street explains in great detail what battle rap is, for those of you who have no clue what I just said. And I, man, I've been just recently really impacted by Street's ministry. I heard him at a couple different conferences, got to talk to him just a little bit in the hallways about his ministry and what God's done in his life. And I was just truly blown away at the unique kind of ministry and empowerment and anointing really that God has on the life of Street Hymn.

So I was so excited to have him on the podcast. I think you're going to enjoy this show. As you get to know the powerful impact that him and his team have in the battle rap area or whatever you want to call it. I'm new to the battle rap scene. You're not going to hear me battle rap street hymns or anybody else anytime soon. If you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. Very thankful for those of you who have joined the Theology in the Raw community on Patreon. Thank you so much for your support. And if you join the Patreon community, you can

get access to premium content as well. If you don't want to join, then please do leave a review and share this episode and others that you have enjoyed on your social media accounts. The only way people know about Theology in the Raw is when followers and listeners and quote-unquote fans tell others about it. So please do take a few minutes, share on your socials about Theology in the Raw. All right, let's get to know the one and only Street Hymns. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here with a new friend, Street Hymns, famed battle rapper. We're going to get into what that even is, because I think my audience is like, did I hear that wrong? I don't know what that is, battle rapper. We're going to get into what that even is. Uh, cause I think my audience is like, did I hear that wrong? I don't know what that is. Battle rap. I'm sure some of my audience is like,

finally, you got a battle rapper on the show, but a street. Thanks so much for being on theology and rap for the first time, man. Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me. I love talking theology and I love talking battle rap. Awesome. Uh, yeah, I love talking theology, man. I'm brand new to the battle rap. I didn't know it existed until six months ago when I first heard you speak. So I'm excited to get to know more about you and your ministry. But why don't we start with you? Just who are you, man? What's your background? And then how did you get into battle rap? And then you can tell us a bit more about what that even is. battle rap and and tell us a bit and then you can tell us a bit more about what that even is oh yeah absolutely um so my name is street hymns um i'm an artist musician uh battle rapper um i just love creating things you know i love pushing the envelope and i love provoking thought and as far as battle rap goes that's like the perfect platform for all of those things in one for me. I graduated with my biblical studies degree in theology at Dallas Baptist University. So there's some level of scholarship. People keep pushing me to do seminary.

I'm on the fence. You know, I'll never say no because when I say no to things, the Lord has a funny way of putting it down. I never say no, because usually when I say no to things, the Lord has a funny way of putting it down. I never have to do it. But I'm definitely just interested in continuing to further my knowledge, not just in theology, but philosophy, ethics, morality. I love information. I love knowledge. rap field, you know, there is a lot of ideologies, religiosity, and just a lot of things that people express through the form of hip hop. And so that has been actually the culture of hip hop from the beginning. It's a form and art form of expression, you know, and mostly expressive out of struggle and oppression and also just joy, you know, finding joy in the midst of, etc.

So a lot of battle rap is portrayed as and expressed as a violent culture. And from a lyrical stance, I could definitely see that for sure, because a lot of what is said is vulgar and violent. But when you look at the culture and actually are involved in the culture and actually immerse in it, you actually see that it's really steeped in camaraderie, love and entertainment. love and entertainment. So I've been doing battle rap for the last six years plus. And I found a culture that has not only embraced me, but one that I have grown very fond of in heart and in deed. So, yeah.

Okay. So let's back up for a second. For somebody who doesn't have the foggiest category for what battle rap is, can you bring it all the way down? We're talking first grade, kindergarten level. Explain to us what should we even be picturing when you talk about battle rap? So imagine it's almost lyrical boxing. So you have two opponents getting on stage with an audience there, typically. two opponents getting getting on stage with an audience there typically and without a beat they're literally with most of the time prep material like you know who you're battling

beforehand most of the time and you prepare for that person and so what you do is your goal is essentially to either highlight yourself in such a way or break them down in such a way that you win over the crowd or win over the audience or win in your own sense as well. There's typically not a judge, you know, so it's not like, man, who they determine who wins the battle at the end. It's really just like jury of your peers, like whoever you feel like won, won typically. the end it's really just like jury of your peers like whoever you feel like one one typically but uh it's it's it's mostly done like i said in a vulgar sense to where yeah a lot of the content about guns you know violence um how i'm gonna break you down how i'm gonna shoot you how i'm gonna kill you and no in in a lot of sense it is it is metaphorical it is lyrical. But you do so in such a entertaining way that that is what brought the attention to the culture. It is a subculture of the main genre of hip hop, but it is definitely a vast culture, especially this last year.

It's taken its greatest leaps and bounds to become mainstream. greatest leaps and bounds to become mainstream um a lot of cosigns like people like drake um silo green um and a lot of athletes are literally starting to promote battle rap in in ways it's never been before and it's definitely put it in a way in a highlight to now it's like it is mainstream it is it's it's i mean be patient with my terminology i, is it, I don't need to freestyle is the right term, but is it, is it, it's not like, it's like you come with your script, you, they come with theirs. Like it's on the fly. Like you're right.

You're in the moment. Most of the times it's pre-written. So we know who we're battling beforehand. And then, um, so I could see why. So the clip you saw that I had, the guy did something and then I rebuttaled directly to what he said. And because of that, it makes it seem like all of what I do is freestyle. But typically you want to rebuttal something that you either catch on the fly like, oh, I could I could respond to that. OK. Or they said something so amazing.

that okay or they said something so amazing it's like man i want to take away the sting of that by directly associating what they just said but flipping it against them or flipping it to my benefit or flipping it so that the crowd can understand like oh that really wasn't as powerful to say or that's not even as true as they say yeah so um there are freestyle elements but okay 95% of my material is typically already written. I have room for freestyle, but it's mostly all written beforehand. So you're studying the guy you're battling ahead of time, so you know kind of what he's going to say, where he's going to go and everything. It's kind of like a debate almost, right?

Was it a blend between like a debate and rap? Oh, absolutely. Now, typically it's not as intellectual as you may think it may be. An aspect of coming with material that is set forth for the purpose of a debate or inquiring minds. It's really just for entertainment. But, for example, my last battle, which I actually just did. Okay. I was battling somebody who is from the camp of, and there's not an actual specific term for it, but just more so African spirituality, someone who left the church, a woman. So she's no longer Christian. She follows the teachings of ancient Egypt, uh, uh, a lot of honoring and admonishing

of the ancestors, um, spiritual concepts, you know, mysticisms of the culture, you know, kind of getting back to what they call the roots of exaggeration, over 80 plus hours of research. Oh, my God. So in the three minute rounds that I compiled, I not only studied for 80 plus hours of the material, but that also included my second round. What I did was I addressed the concept that is Christianity a white man's religion Yeah, and then when I did so I involved the crowd and it was actually pretty creative. I'll send you the clip I'll send you a preview But what's crazy is

when I did that within there I put in the uh in in the round i basically was like um i said now this is scholarly material not everyone has time for courses and we'll always call a line facts until it's time to sort it so do me a favor on social media search street hymns you'll be quite rewarded there'll be a file in my bow link site export it it's called battle rap facts i challenge you try to thwart it in it i recorded everything that i reported from this battle with the cited sources i'm trying to fight endorsements you know i'm saying so like basically like within that battle i actually created a document in powerpoint that has all of the cited sources from everything i said in the battle so it's like people are able to reference back what i said and then go and

research it themselves so that they not only just have something so oh that sounds cool it's like people are able to reference back what I say and then go and research it themselves so that they not only just have something. Oh, that sounds cool. It's like, no, no, no. It doesn't just sound cool. It's actually facts. You know what I'm saying? You can actually go and look this up. So I put a lot of work in it so that the crowd could be benefited from what I said within my second and third round, which were like my most impactful rounds for that battle. within my second and third round, which were like my most impactful rounds for that battle. There's been other times I've battled atheists, you know, and I put some, I put 40 hours of research in that battle, you know, just watching atheist versus Christian debates, just in case he says this, I want to say this, just in case he says this, I want to say this. I've battled Muslims, I've battled, it's all types of different, you know, different camps, belief systems, ideologies, philosophies. And then I've just battled people that just want to battle in a lyrical stance. So it's like me, I can talk about anime and nerd bars, you know what I'm saying?

So I can be myself. But sometimes there are other times where you have to get in your, get my stuff in your bag. But it really just depends on the opponent. So you have obviously like an apologetic thread to kind of what you do. Is that typical in battle rap or is that something unique that you bring to it? So, okay, so what I don't want to confuse people is that battle rap is a Christian sport. It's not. We as Christians have infiltrated battle rap.

So it's myself, people on my team. I'm part of a team called the Horsemen, specifically the Four Horsemen. You know, we started it's myself, A. Ward, Loso, the Saga and the newest member, Oops. And so we are a team of Christians, you know, that go into the battle rap field and in a sense, yes, present a form of an apologetic, you know, making a defense, an apology for the gospel, you know, what the scriptures will call the hope that is in us. So, yes, there are times when they come for the faith. And so because they come for the faith, we got to make a defense for that. You know, we have to uphold and stand firm on what we claim to believe, you you know as they're

attacking it in a lyrical faith in a lyrical way and um i can confidently say within the culture right now to mention battle rap and not mention if not myself my team members and our team you're doing battle rap injustice because we have literally infiltrated in the sense that we have now been highlighted in a way that they recognize us as one of the best teams in battle rap. So I want to get my audience, I want to tease that out a little bit. So battle rap, pretty rare to have a Christian in it. And then, so you guys come in and let's just say, don't worry about not being humble. Like just set aside right now. I just want to, cause I want people to get an understanding.

What you just said, you're very well-known in the battle rap scene. Battle rap is becoming a very big subculture. Is there anything just to tangibly give us a picture of your influence, like followers on TikTok or views or anything? I was blown away at how many people are encountering the gospel in a really creative, intellectually responsible way through your ministry.

Yeah, so I mean, if we were to sit here and count the millions of views, like I have battles that have reached up to 400,000 for a battle. People on my team have reached a million. And it's really one of those things where, like I say, like the battle rap culture, like it's not just something where, oh, yeah, those Christians, it's like, no, no, no.

Yeah, they're here. They're here to stay. They're actually making an impact within the biggest league of battle rap. Our guy, Loso, who's kind of like taking like the forefront in representing in that league because it's different leagues depending on what city or state you're in. And like, yeah, he's literally like the the highlight member of what is now called the Caffeine app, which is a form of like it's kind of like Twitch. It's a streaming app and Battle Rap is now taking the forefront of the caffeine app and loso has his own show there he's highlighted he just did a battle hosted by drake there um and yet it's literally to the point where if you're mentioning a big card or a major card

you're going to have to include us like literally because not just in a stance of like oh yeah like because they're good it's like no no The people want to see us. Wow. Like they like being in high demand. And so because it's in high demand, there is a a a requirement to give the people what they want. You know, they want to see us whether they want to see us lose or want to see us when they want to see us. to see us lose or want to see us win, they want to see us. You know, so it's been a blessing to be a part of what has been literally

the foundation of trailblazing. You know, where now it wasn't supposed to start with us so it's not going to end with us. There's other Christians now coming behind us and, you know, going along the same thread. And we're just here to support them and help them grow so that they can

be prepared for, you know, the culture that is definitely having an uprise right now. How long has it been around? Like, if you can give a snapshot of the history of battle rap, I mean, is it 5, 10 years? So the concept of battling has been around since hip hop, you know. Like, I don't know if you remember, so my dad actually used to battle rap. So my dad actually battle rapped Will Smith, the Fresh Prince, you know, and back then it was it was about, you know, having a DJ and then you have an emcee. And then the DJ and the emcee will go against the DJ and emcee. And then whoever got the most crowd reaction, whoever did the free and the back that it was pure freestyle.

You had to captivate the crowd. That's what means to mc means move the crowd whoever moved the crowd better whoever got a bigger uprisal whoever got a bigger reaction winner and so um that definitely played a part in the aspect of the dj and the lyricist my dad actually admits he lost that battle but my uncle like they used to go in different clubs and stuff like that so so battle rap has actually been part of hip-hop's core because battling the form of competition has been there since in the same way b-boying has been there so like uh you'd have two different break dancers you know they would battle you know they would do things they would highlight their skills and their talents and so like uh the same thing followed the same thread when it came to battle rap um used to be more along the lines of on a beat instrumentation but now it's more acapella rather than okay um but there's

still some people who also do the the instrumentation aspect where there is a beat going behind you and somebody's rapping so yes it's been around since the beginning of hip-hop and so it's just had a kind of an evolution and so like i would imagine since social media has been really huge in the last 10 years that's probably really thrown gasoline on the fire of it oh yeah yeah oh yeah oh yeah so i mean like i said there's there's there's mainstream the so it's funny because the the uh the the mockeries of it really helped it as well you know so um if anybody who remembers like some of the biggest social media guys when social media was really kind of taking its fruition in the beginning there's a guy named super hot fire you know i'm saying i don't know if you remember super hot fire

he was like you got the wrong number you know i'm saying then you had the big and it's like art battled the guy too you you know, and they were they were making fun of battle rap. It's like, oh, give me big reactions. And but through that, it actually brought more attention to battle rap. You know, it's like those videos were some of the most viewed, quote unquote, battles, even though they were fake. You know, so it's always had its its its levels of, oh, snap, this could be big, this could be big, this could be big. But it's not something that could be household because it's not really family friendly in a sense. And so couldn't get along and on board with it the way that you think it would be because it is very vulgar and can be sensitive to the average household. vulgar and can be sensitive to the average household.

But there are battlers who are household names, and those typically are the ones who were a lot of the trailblazers and trendsetters within the culture for sure. Okay. You said there's a lot of kind of violent imagery. Do fights ever break out? I can imagine the emotions, the heat. Gets intense or not? Not really.

Is that pretty rare? Yeah, that's – That's probably frowned upon, right? I mean, if heat. It gets intense or not? Not really. Is that pretty rare? Yeah, that's – That's probably frowned upon, right? I mean, if the guy took a swing or something. At the end of the day, if you really – you'll probably see that happening as much as in real life wrestlers actually fight outside of the ring. Okay. You know, aspect of –

like, it's truly entertainment. Yeah. Like it's, it's truly an entertainment, you know, these, the, like the fact you can literally see somebody, um, do something as extreme as laughing at somebody's little brother who is a cripple and say, I'll kick your wheelchair down the kicks wheelchair down the stairway and then see them gap it up afterwards. gap it up afterwards um up until the point where seeing somebody spit on somebody's grandmother's obituary you know um a picture it's like man like and then afterwards they're able to have a civil conversation or at least be in the same place and not be you know static it's like now obviously those are very much extremes you know but there's things that happen it's like man like you're really really going too far okay but like man i guess that's what you're willing to do for clout. That's what you're willing to do to go viral. So people do things to the extremes. But man, even in those extremes, those people are, you know, nobody really respects them to the same extent. But at the end of the day, it's like it's like you're not in harm's way. Yeah. You know, it could go there.

It's like you're not in harm's way. You know, now, it could go there. Yeah. But the fact that it hasn't gone there just shows you that, yeah, man, like, hey, this is all entertainment. Like, you know you're going to see me at the next event because we're in the same league or we claim to be friends and stuff like that. So it really doesn't go that way. Yeah. And even when it goes that way per se, there is a still level of camaraderie because you understand, like a lot of people just kind of say it's battle rap, you know? Now, of course there hasn't been a direct, Hey, this is the line. Don't cross it. There's never been that conversation

within the culture, but it's really just something like, Hey, if you say something, just know every man has to account for the words he said. So if you want to go as far as you want, know that, okay, cool. We might have to be in the same room. We might have to account for the words he said so if you want to go as far as you want know that okay cool we might have to be in the same room we might have to be the same restaurant we might have to be the same so i might have to have a conversation with you afterwards now as the christian we don't have this problem you know saying because we don't we don't cross any of those lines like there's no need to there's no desire to always tell somebody i'm never going to say something to you on this stage that I wouldn't say to you off the stage. Level of integrity that we have to trace.

Like, I'm not going to get up here and start a show just to get likes, just to get a reaction, just to get views. Just it's like, no, no, no, no. Like when you're understanding my heart in this, which is a ministry, I'm representing not just myself. I'm representing a whole entire community. Yeah. You'm representing an entire community, which is the church. I have to have a mindset understanding that, yes, what I say may cut because the sword is a double-edged sword, but it's also meant to heal as well. It's a surgical tool. That clip that I saw that you referenced, can you summarize that

comeback you had like like tell our audience who and they can google or whatever but that that was just so brilliant i battled a guy named asylum the crow um and uh within his his round so he calls himself god you know um his his name is that his mother named him lord actually um and so like he refers to himself as lord kind of along the same aspects of African spirituality. You know, like we are gods. We are because we are like the gods, as they would say in the scriptures. You know, doesn't your Bible say we are like the gods?

So they claim to be deity and have a form of deity that is like, yo, like y'all should be admonishing me. You know, it's like and so he was basically saying like, like, yo, you should be admonishing me. I'm God. I'm your God. You know, I'm saying stuff like this know, it's like, and so he was basically saying like, like, yo, you should be admonishing me. I'm, I'm God. I'm, I'm, I'm your God. You know what I'm saying? Stuff like this. And I was like, okay, interesting. You know, my, and in my third round, I broke down that entire thing. Like the dichotomy of calling yourself God, it's like, yes. Do you understand who the most high is? I don't care who you're calling yourself, but understand there's the most high God, like the King of Kings, Lord of Lords. So whatever status you want to put

yourself up it's in it's not comparison you know i'm saying so um when when he was saying these things he actually slipped up in his round he was like what we call choking he messed up in a way that was like like oh man he and he's like you know he starts stumbling he's like man as he's messing he's like god damn yeah and i was like, in my round, I started off, I was like, I was like, so you call yourself Lord and the praise supposed to be all for you. But, but when you choke,

you say, God damn. So who are you talking to? And the whole crowd, dude, they were like, ah, like laughing.

Cause it's like, it's like, it's like, that's just funny. It's like, number one, he was choking. Number two like it's like laughing because it's like it's like it's like that's just funny it's like number one he was choking number two it's like say bro really like who are you referring to you know uh it's uh it is funny because i actually seen um that interaction happen i think uh um within like another apologetic thing happening it's like it's like somebody that doesn't believe in god, but they'll, they'll, they'll use idioms or phrases like that. And it's like, wait, so when you use that phrase, what do you mean? Like, oh, no, no, no, don't, don't, you're, you're, you're

picking it. I don't know. It's like, it's a valid question. I'm just asking the question, you know what I'm saying? So, but yeah, it was, it was an interaction, but you know, rebuttals like that happen quite often. it was an interaction but you know rebuttals like that happen quite often the best rebuttaler you'll see is in our team as well um his name is a ward a white dude from kansas city um this guy is amazing you know um as far as like the freestyle ability yeah the best out like there's like not even it's not even think of like hey he is top five. Like, people put him in the battle rap culture, battle rap world. They'll say he's one of the best rebuttalers ever to be in the game, ever. You know, and Christian as well. So it's dope to be a part of such an amazing team of people who have made themselves submitted to the Lord.

So, you know, and we got some potential women, you know, killing it in the game on behalf of the name of the Lord as well. So they're making their way now. Is it largely male-dominated, I would imagine? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I wouldn't say the music industry is, but yes, it is. So the hip-hop industry, yes, it's harder for women to break through the industry in that sense. And so it kind of bears weight in the battle rap world too.

So, yes. Do you have any reason why that is? I never – the question just came to my mind. Like why is it – why is hip-hop rap so male-dominated in general? I mean, have you ever – have you thought through that or do you haven't – Oh, yeah. We all understand the – so whenever you see a female lyricist, it's not the fact that they don't exist, they exist.

It's just it typically bears weight that you want your woman who is a lyricist to be feminine or to be wearing the dress. So it's either going to come with the hyper-sexualization or we're not going to accept you because um you don't portray you portray a butch you know image or play like a a a it's like you want your women to be so the culture has always had an issue with accepting you know whether it be the lgbtq community or even um uh women who just you know are themselves but in a sense are portraying to be less feminine in a sense with pop and rap. So the women who you do see that actually have great careers typically are the

ones who over-sexualize themselves. And so it's always been, it's always been a tough struggle within the hip hop community for sure. Anomalies are like a Lauryn Hill. That's an anomaly. You don't typically see somebody who is able to honor themselves, honor their body, talk about things like sex and how our culture on the song, that thing. Guys, you always better watch out

some girls some girls are only about what that one thing that thing that it's like man like i was growing up listening to that in my mom and dad's car you know i don't know what they're talking about but i'm growing up i'm looking back like man like she was really talking about some some some stuff in our culture that you know is not really being discussed in a hip-hop sense you know it's always about hey get it and go smash hit and quit it you know, is not really being discussed in a hip hop sense. You know, it's always about, Hey, get it and go smash, hit and quit it. You know what I'm saying? But she's like, no, no, no, no, no. We can't do this because we've got to honor ourselves, honor our bodies, our bodies, a temple, you know, things like that. Um, so it's always been a,

it's always been a, not, it's always been a question and struggle within the community, but, um, uh, there is a, there's a, a wonderful league called Queen of the Ring, where they actually, it's a woman-dominated league, you know, and one of our Christian sisters is actually about to, like, she's already killing it over there. Her name is Pristavia, and she's doing an amazing job, you know, representing Christ over there as well. So yeah, it's growing, man. It's growing. Yeah, it's from an outsider perspective. It does.

And I don't like to see some people say this out loud, but it does seem very almost misogynistic or very like if a woman breaks in, she has to kind of represent kind of the extreme version of what a hyper-sexualized male wants her to be, like a Cardi B kind of example. It's like, man, I just don't know

if this is empowering women as much as it's entertaining men but is that a is that a simplistic argument that's along the same lines of almost any male dominated industry you know totally you know it's like i want you to be how we want you to be and if you're not willing to submit to that then you know we're not going to accept you so it's you know you have people who have to go to the extreme in order to be accepted, they feel. But there are exceptions to the rule that have shown that you don't need to do that. But, of course, you know, things like finances involved and families involved.

It's like, you know, what are you not willing to do? It does seem like wide open space for the gospel, right? I mean, a Christian woman representing dignity and honor and respect in a way that reflects the Imago Dei, right? And isn't going to cave in to... But you mentioned, I mean, your sister, I forget her name, you just mentioned that. Yes, so Pristavia is...

Pristavia. She's a dope female emcee. Like when I tell you she is amazing, like she's a wife to a husband, has children. And if you even hear her message, you know, it's really about uplifting the queens around her. Now, she's gotten some slack from the culture because it's like hey you're saying you're a christian you know but then you'll you'll also say you know and use things like gun bars and stuff like that and use bars with aggression and to her reply it's like so you mean to tell me you're gonna come up here and talk about how you

gonna run run in my house shoot my kids shoot up my house and i can't defend myself hey like yes of course don't think you're gonna come to my house saying you're gonna do all this stuff and think i'm gonna just quote unquote turn the other cheek you have a misrepresentation of what that scripture means you know like like christians are called to defend themselves so it's like hey like I'm going to portray this part of the body as well. And this part of the Christian church, which is God conquering, like you're not going to sit here and just say what you're going to do in the church, what you're going to do to the church and not expect us to retaliate in a sense. You know what I'm saying? Because God's people doesn't mean peace doesn't come with the prospect of war as well.

it mean peace doesn't come with the prospect of war as well so she does a great job of representing that um in a in a very satirical way and a lot of times but also in an entertaining way to where the culture is able to understand and hear and it's being oh you broke up a little bit are you there i'm here i'm here it's still breaking up no you're good okay yeah a lot of times the culture will basically um understand where we're coming from and why we're coming from because they have an understanding of us and it's mutual like in the same way and i talked about this at the axiom it's like you never want to judge a culture

from the outside yeah when you judge a culture from the outside you're not going to understand the language you're not going to understand the the the reasonings of why they do the things they do if you don't have a personal relationship, so you have to first, number one, develop relationships, which I say starts with immersion. It's not just, Hey, I went to a battle event and now I understand the culture. They're just a violent people. You went to one event, you know what I'm saying? Like, like you didn't see us praying beforehand. You didn't see us praying for them. You didn't see us afterwards. We're going to having lunches and meals and talking about what it means to be a Christian, talking about what it means to honor ourselves and honor our wives and, and not be out there like, Oh man, y'all finna go to the club after this. It's like, uh, well,

what type of club are you talking about? You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah. We're going to restrict withhold from that. Oh man. You know what I'm saying? It's nothing wrong to go. You know what I'm saying? Throw some ones real quick. It's like, no, actually like I, I honor our sisters in such a way that I w I don't want to do that. You don't see that. You just see the YouTube click or the YouTube video or the viral. It's like, no, no, no. There is a culture here. And wherever there's culture, there is people. Wherever there's people, there's opportunity for the gospel. And so no type of people group should be getting ostracized from the opportunity of hearing about the love of God. And so what we do is we go into the culture of battle rap and we just exemplify what it means to be believers in Christ.

Hold on. I got to timestamp that. That's going to be a good promo. I almost wanted to repeat that. It's contextualizing the gospel, right? I mean, you read in the book of Acts and Paul presents the gospel, Jewish audience, Greco-Roman audience, high caste, low caste, like he understands the culture he's going into and he doesn't change the gospel, but he does draw out, he does emphasize certain aspects that he knows is going to either resonate with or rebuke or get inside of his target audience. And so that, yeah, that's for somebody that's just like a white suburban upper middle class person. If you just drop them into your ministry context, they're not going to have a category for that.

But I'm curious about that. Do you get people that kind of misunderstand or judge you or maybe just Christian battle rap in general based on how you guys are reaching this culture? Because they don't have any kind of category for the context you're stepping into. Oh, absolutely. So the how I actually got – so I'll tell you a little background on how I actually got invited to even speak at Axiom. One of my close friends, his name is Grant Skelton. He actually works for Q now.

Yeah. Really good guy. We actually went to school. We met at DBU. We went to school together. And I invited him one time to come out to a battle I was doing. And so he came. He was like, he got there.

And, you know, we have all types of stuff happening. We got people smoking weed, smoking cigarettes. We got people cursing. And then battles are happening. And then he's seeing all this, but he's also seeing in between. He's seeing beforehand. We circled up before the event started. We prayed for the event.

Wow. You know, we're literally in the midst of it. And everybody's seeing this. Some people that are battlers are joining us for prayer. You know, having beers. You know what I'm saying? Chopping it up with them. Having conversations before and after.

Grant left that. He hit me up. He's like, hey, man, you're a friend of sinners. And I was like, yeah? I mean, I never talked like that. Like, aren't we all? He said, I don't think you realize a lot of people who are Christians in the church are not friends with people that are not. And I was like, really?

Why were they reading? What are we doing here, man? I'm like, man, like the hospitals for the sick. Like, is that not what we're supposed to be doing? Now, this isn't a diss. This isn't, this isn't a, oh man, like, kick it up, y'all. It's like, man, if we're the ecclesia called out ones, we have to go out. We can't expect them to show up to our front door.

Like, that was the irony of the, like, even the concept of 9-11, you know, the, the, the churches were filled because like, oh snap, we, we are searching for an answer. Yeah. You know, in time of tragedy, we need help. And so they went to the doorsteps and then what the, the, the common trope was they, they showed up on Sunday and, and, and didn't show up the next Sunday because they saw that, you know, it was more like the world than they thought.

It's like, it's like, man, like what, Like what? Now, of course, you know, there's definitely some some some some some exaggerations about that, you know, because most churches, I don't think are. Obviously, I think the majority of churches are not teaching heresy, are not teaching, you know, and not doing things that are intentionally damaging to the culture. But for me, it's one of those things where, yes, when somebody says they experienced church hurt, the first thing you have to do is acknowledge that they got hurt, you know. And a lot of times we can't look at someone's hurt and say, oh, well, it wasn't my intention. Or, um, that really wasn't that bad because hurt is always relative and subjective to the person who received the blow, you know? And the same way, if a child were to hit me on the shoulder, you know, um, I'd be like, man, quit playing, you know, but if he was to hit a child with that same force, the other child will start

crying. It's like, yo, he hit me. And I can't say, yo, that didn't hurt. I can't say that to that child. It's like, no, that hurt me. And this isn't a conversation of like, okay, well, who is more strong or less strong? It's really a conversation of acknowledging and affirming somebody in their pain so that we can understand why, what and how not to make that happen again. You know, because a lot of times we hear the word church hurt and it can be almost discrediting to a lot of people. It's like, oh, well, you know, everybody has church. It's like, no, no, no, no. Let's listen to why they have their hurt and then see if there's anything we can do to adjust the impact and the actual aspect of the blow. Because a lot of times you can be hurt, you know, but also understand that, man, maybe it wasn't you that hurt me directly.

But it was something within my own past that like maybe I already had a bruise and you just touched it. And it's like, wait, man, that hurts. Like, wait, wait, I didn't even realize I touched you. You know what I'm saying? Like, like I was just, I was actually just embracing you and giving you a hug. I didn't know you had a former bruise there, you know? And so because of that, what I'm seeing within the battle rap community is they're actually embracing us in a way that's like, man, I've experienced church my whole life. I grew up in church, but I never got to experience what y'all are offering. Wow. You know, and I've never got to see church done in a way that they actually meet us where we're at.

Wow. You know, and for them to say like, oh, man, hey, we're about to go have a beer, man. I know you can't go do this. I'm like, I have a beer with you guys. You know what I'm saying? There's nothing wrong with the beer. You know what I'm saying? I'm not going to go out there and get drunk, you know, but yeah, I'll meet you where you're at, man. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a limit to what you're going to say that I'm going to say yes and no to. But bro, like understand, man, like this isn't about the restrictions of Christianity. This is about the liberty of Christianity and understanding

that within liberty, there are boundaries, you know, and those boundaries are there for love and protection and understanding that God actually cares about us and our well-being. So yes, there are things that I will restrain from because my well-being is cared for and who is the care of me, but also understand like I'm about liberty. I'm about expressing the freedom I have in Christ, you know? So it's definitely one of the things where it's been a joy to see the reaction of, you know, what it means to be in and not of a culture. Do you have kind of top three or four beautiful gospel moments in your battle rap ministry that you can maybe pick one or two and describe or yeah i'll say one um one of one of the ones so my very first

battle i went to um there was a guy named leo um and there's some battles of him you know up up to this day uh leo the lion leo versus this card lio um and uh when i first did my first battle um he was outside you know chilling with some guys smoking stuff like that and they were like oh yeah what's up man what you what you got going i was like man i got a battle he's like oh you battling you know and i'm in here with the backpack you know chilling got my glasses on you know and they're like it's like what's your name i said street hymns i said street hymns i was like yeah he's like street hymns he's like are you a christian rapper i was like yeah i'm a christian rapper man they were like they started laughing you know leo's laughing he's like he literally he responds he said man i believe in god but

and i ain't with all that christian, you know, and that was his response. You know, fast forward a little bit, you know, me and Leo develop a really, really close relationship after that battle. And, you know, to the point where whenever he has a battle, he's calling me, let me hear his bars. I'm calling him, letting him hear my bars. Like, hey man, you got to hear what I got for this next guy. You got to, you know, and we develop a camaraderie, you know, to where I invite him to church. He shows up, you know, we start hanging out more often, getting meals together, talking about future plans, future things in the battle rap world. And then through that, you know, just developing a camaraderie and a friendship. He also got to be exposed to my life, you know, seeing what I do in youth ministry at the time i literally moved to the hood um which is called uh which was uh in south dallas south south oak

cliff um which was like one of the most impoverished and non-educated aspects and realms of dallas i moved there intentionally for the purpose of mentoring and discipling the youth there and so when he was seeing that he's like he's like he's he's like, yo, why did you go and do that? I said, bro, because I care about my community and I want to love like Christ. You know, and I remember a time I was on Snapchat and he was like, yo, I just want to tell you, bro, like after seeing what you did, I actually rejoined my church. And now I'm actually seeking to be one of the youth direct, like youth leaders there and teaching them and teaching the young men. He rejoined his his men's group in his church as well. And just like he literally was like proclaiming Christ again.

You know, he went from not proclaiming Christ to proclaiming Christ. So crazy ending, you know. Basically, I was going to attend one of his battles he had. He had a battle on Saturday. It was the Friday where I found out that Friday morning he passed away in his sleep. And so when he never got, of course course he never got to do the battle. I never got to actually hear his bars either. Um, but, uh, but it was interesting when we went to the funeral, you know, uh, hearing

how his church community talked about him. It was one thing of for a while he was gone, but he became our prodigal son. Like he, he, he strayed, he came back and he was actively back involved in the church, actively back involved with the choir, the praise team, and then help them out with the youth. But to know that I was at least a catalyst or involved in the message of him understanding and seeing the gospel in a way that he probably wasn't familiar with or was familiar with but wanted to go back to his first love, had an internal struggle, was humbling and beautiful to know that I was a part of a gospel opportunity within the battle rap culture directly, you know. And I only shared that story because I know Leo was proud of that story. There are also other times that things happen, but we never want to make it to be like, yo, we're doing this for the purpose of compiling up stories and saying, hey, I remember when you prayed to me when you were thinking about ending your life, or hey, remember when you prayed to me when you needed some money, and we, Or, hey, remember when you prayed to me when you needed some money? It's like, no, we don't want to make that the thing.

We don't want to highlight the good that we do because we never want them to feel like they're projects. We never want them to feel like, hey, here's the little bald African child I'm taking a picture with in order to get some likes on Facebook. No, no, no. We're not doing that. We're literally there for the purpose of love. And when you love something so much, you don't keep track of time and you don't take pictures. It's just, you're so involved in the moment. And so like, there are stories that I can share endlessly. And, but, but I'd rather, I'd like, it's one of those things where it's

more so for the moment, you know, and I enjoyed it in the moment, but I, I honor Leo so much. And I, I admonish him as a but I, I honor Leo so much and I, I admonish him as a brother so much that I love getting the opportunity to tell his story specifically. Well, it sounds like the, the gospel, I'm sorry, I'm hearing an echo on mine. I don't know if you can hear that, but it's so highly relational given the culture, the nature of what you do, the, the real,

like intimacy you have with other people. I mean, I like the video I saw and others. I mean, you're physically all up in each other's business. There's people standing right there. It's just such a highly relational, it seems like, way of presenting the gospel. You're not on some stage speaking to somebody who's receiving whatever, and you may never see them. Although, obviously, the social media influence and stuff, I'm sure there's impact far beyond what you even recognize. But yeah, that's, gosh, if you're not a friend of sinners, you know,

following the way Jesus went about things, I don't think you're probably not going to be very effective as a Christian witness in your area. Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, and I even say, you know, it's harder to understand the mission only looking at what's done on the stage. You know, and Grant actually wrote a book, you know, to millennials and about millennials. And he actually mentioned me in the book. But it was because he understood of what was going on outside, you know, of what just I do in the battle rap realm. It's really just based on and in my heart for the community.

Like I'm able to portray lyricism, entertainment because it's for the crowd, it's for the audience. And then now, you know, I'm saying like in the same way, if somebody somebody's hungry you know you before we start talking about the love of god feed them yeah what do they want what do they need you know i'm saying like oh they need to be entertained they they they want camaraderie they want community cool and then from there now you i have your ear and i have your heart you know so your heart softened up to the message and you understand. And it starts with relationships. And the thing is, we have to engage people the way they need to be engaged with and the way that in context they can understand. Jesus didn't go there talking about the kingdom in a way that farmers wouldn't understand. He used what? The parables of seeds. You know, you may not understand the parableable but you get the concept of what a seed does and knowing where and how to sow a seed you know

things that they could directly relate to in the material so they could get the metaphysical and spiritual so in the same way that's what we do in the culture so yes there's moments where we're all in each other's stuff we're like you know face to, face-to-face. It's like, you know, we got the whole persona going, you know, the aggression, the passion. But all that is for the audience, for the battler, for ourselves. The real work is being done behind the scenes. Yeah.

Your camera, you keep syncing. I don't know if it looks like you're in quicksand or you're slowly getting low. Yeah, yeah. I noticed that. I was like... I was like, don't disappear, street. So you mentioned at the very beginning that you have a theological degree. You have

a deep personal interest in theology, philosophy, ethics. Can you tell us just a bit about your intellectual journey? And like, were you raised as a Christian? What kind of, are you part of a denomination? Or what's your, what are you reading these days? Oh man. Um, I read a lot of anime. Uh, well I read a lot of manga and I watch a lot of anime. I didn't know what that is. I mean, I, I kind of vaguely know what anime is, but yeah, anime. And so manga is the booklet version of anime. Um, and, uh, anime is basically, uh, the animation aspect of a Japanese animation. So most more commonly ones like Naruto, uh, you know, Dragon Ball Z, things like that. Um, and of course, like to ask a question about theology and then we respond with anime

is like, what in the world are you talking about? Um, but it's in the same way people who enjoy, uh, like I don't, I don't just watch movies. Like I, I really't just watch movies. Like, I really look at movies. And because art is the expression of the philosophers of today. I feel like artists are the philosophers of today, addressing things. Like, it is taboo to talk about LGBTQ community in a neutral or negative way. Yet here you have someone like Dave Chappelle being able to do so in an entertaining way and also tackling things. It's like,

should we be thinking like this or have we ever thought about this? You know? And it's, and it's like, wow, like man, Dave, like you made us laugh about something that we all are scared to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Who is able to do these things? The artists, the entertainers. Yeah. You know, because art has no bounds, you know. So so so so when you look at what you listen to, the what's being put on the television screens, what's being put into music. put into music, this is where I kind of have the mindset of, all right, bet. I get to see how you're viewing the world in a way that the world might even say, that's a little too far, but you're doing it in an abstract way. I'm getting what you're talking about, the underlying thing.

So like a lot of times, even things I say, I'm a very abstract person. So I appreciate abstract art in the form of the physical, you know, things like Jackson Pollock, even abstract art to the sense of the lyrical. I'm having multiple layers behind one thing that was said, entendres, you know. So my intellectual journey, I definitely was raised Christian. My mother and father are both believers, raised in a Christian home. are both believers, raised in a Christian home. I was a cubby, you know, went to Awana, you know, the VBS, was in the praise team at a young age. I went to a Christian sports camp directly, went from the Christian sports camp called Kids Across America. I did that for 10 years.

And then I went and taught at that same camp for seven summers. I worked in a youth ministry before that as well. Um, and I did that because I saw my father do it as well, you know? And so the, uh, the beginning stages of Christian hip hop, actually, um, I was there as a child being able to see it. And so a lot of the, um, forefathers of Christian hip-hop are my direct role models. They were literally, before fame was even associated to the art form or fame was even associated to the musicality of Christian hip-hop, they were on the streets. They were literally going to church by church, but also street by street corners, putting the stereo up in there, playing basketball, and then afterwards freestyling, having people come up. You're not really freestyling. You say I'm not freestyling, but I'm representing Christ. I'm doing, you know what I'm saying? It's like people like, yo, like these guys is kind of cool. Like what's this message you were talking about? You're not

talking about drugs and selling drugs and, you know what I'm saying? Hitting down shawties and, you know what I'm saying? Like you have a different message of what you're doing. And so I grew up seeing that. And then after they go do the shows, do the concerts, they're back home debating Calvinism and Arminianism. They're back home debating the concept of the hypostatic union, breaking down these topics and things. I'm like, I'm seeing this every day of my life. You know, and so like that was my upbringing, you know, seeing intellectuals chop down theology, seeing intellectuals and black men at that, you know, black intellectuals talk about theology

in a way that's like, man, like, I don't know, I have no idea what they're talking about. But as a child, just to see it, see them get passionate and kind of get the aggression of like, man, how could you, did you not read, did you, you know, and then they have all this, and I'm like, what are they talking about, but they're passionate about it, and so that passion just was passed down to me, you know, and so like when it came to theology, like my first thing was like, I want to go to Bible college because my role models went to Bible college. First thing I did, I went to Bible college.

I double majored in biblical studies and vocal performance because I also love choir. I was in choir from junior high up until my freshman year in college. And then I went to a school called, at the time, Philadelphia Biblical University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania. And then I transferred from there to a community college, from the community college to DBU, and that's where I graduated. And so the intellectual journey is that of just skepticic. You know, my skepticism has actually brought me closer to Christ. And through my skepticism, just understanding what apologetics was, because the original Christian rappers, you know, Cross Movement, that's the name of the group,

and one of the lead guys there, his name was Ambassador. These were the original battle rappers, you know, as Christian battle rappers, because they literally were talking and sounding like the culture, but they were doing so in a way and representing Christ. You know, one of the one of my favorite works is by ambassadors called Christology in layman's terms. And it's just a lyrical way. It's called lyrical theology, as Shai Lin, another Christian rapper, noted it to be, be put in such a way that like this is literally what I'm listening to as I'm walking down the hallways in high school. I'm listening to as I'm walking down the hallways in high school. So my intellectual journey is that of somebody who has been able to see black Christian men highlight theology, hip hop, and also fatherhood in such an amazing way. Do you have any favorite intellectual slash creative heroes, role models, people that you have shaped your life or patterned your life after? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite, Lupe Fiasco. He's a secular artist, Muslim rapper. And he was the first person I saw as a nerd within the hip hop culture. I'm a very nerdy person. So like him wearing glasses, him talking about anime, talking about Street Fighter within his raps. I'm like, who's doing this? Like, I've never seen this before.

Like, he's comfortable in who he is. And so like hearing him do triple entendres and quadruple entendres i'm like yo this is different and so like one of the things i do within hip-hop now i actually try to exemplify like what i've learned through lupe and just studying him and his art form um so i've done quadruple entendres while in battles i've done quintuple entendres and one time i did a sextuple entendre you know while in the battle rap world. Can you explain what that is? Can you explain what that is? Like a double entendre, a quadruple entendre? Yeah, so double entendres are more common because, and that's just not to downplay, they're easier, you know.

But the double entendre is basically saying one thing that means two things, you know? So think of an example. Okay. Like right now I'm not wearing a hat, but if I said I was wearing a hat that was all cap, you know what I'm saying? It's like, okay, Ben, you know, like you're wearing a hat, but me saying I'm wearing a hat, that's all cap. You know, it was like, oh, it's all cap you know i'm saying it's like okay bet you know like you're wearing a hat but me saying i'm wearing a hat that's all cap you know it's like oh it's all cap it's not truth and it's all cap it's like okay it's not a cap you know so like yeah it's like a double entendre

so you can have a quadruple or even you said six tuples six different meanings in one word that's crazy yeah yeah yeah so a way to make that a triple is like if I typed it out and I left the shift key on, I could say, oh, well, what I just said was actually in all caps. You know what I'm saying? So now it's all caps. You know what I'm saying? So it's like you keep layering it. So one thing I said meant six different things. That's a bad example, but you get the concept.

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah so it invites the listener slash reader i guess more listener watcher to really think deeply right i mean because because you really get it you got to sit there and ponder that like whoa did he just wait what like you're inviting people into the the art art form yeah and i'm out of all of the people in my teammate i'm i'm literally the least known and people say because they don't understand me you know um so i've done a better job of like putting things in layman's terms but because i love intellectuals and i love being able to exemplify lyricism in a way that's never been said before. I love pushing the envelope. I take risks a lot, you know, within battle rap.

And so like people who get it and people who love to search, all they love what I do. Other people are just like, I have no idea what he's talking about. And they're just, you know, it's like, you know, we don't hit any nerd bars. We don't want to hear about how you're a virgin in battle rap. Like, like, yo, man, leave. What are you doing? You know, so it's definitely something where, you know, seeing people like, yo, man, leave, what are you doing? You know? Um, so, uh, it's, it's definitely something where, you know, um, seeing people like Lupe Fiasco do that,

like it's beautiful. Um, Tony Evans, um, uh, definitely another intellectual that, uh, storytelling ability is just, uh, it's just beautiful, you know, um, uh, C.S. Lewis, It's just beautiful. You know, C.S. Lewis, his way to create worlds in an abstract way and exemplify what it means to be Christian and yet be loved by the world in your heart. Like, like nobody ever says, oh, I don't like Chronicles of Narnia. Like, everybody loves Chronicles of Narnia. But, like, you also understand, oh, yeah, it was Christian work, you know. And it's like, man, like, he created an entire world and reality that is not essentially Christian. You know, like, he has talking animals and, you know. But, like, he pushes the aspect of what is faith and what is the imagination. Yeah.

You know, and then you see his other works, like Mere Christianity or the Screwtape Letters. It's like, man, you're getting now the more in-depth theological perspectives of things that he's talking about. Dr. Seuss, another role model of mine, you know, somebody who tells you that if your child, if your children's book cannot be enjoyed by an adult, you didn't write a great children's book. You know, um, how, how are we reaching the next generation? Um, that's in the next generation and sowing, sowing seeds into the next generation is really, really big to me. Um, so like I can say how many times I want, but, um, if I'm not able to translate to the audience

in front of me, then I'm doing a bad job. Um, and if, and so for me being that I, I desire to, you know, raise up and train the next generation, um, people like Dr. Seuss, you know, saying things that he said and how he said it definitely were very impactful, you know, in, in like my understanding of the world and, you know, my list of, uh, uh, people who inspire me as it goes on and on um but yeah it sounds like i mean carver who's that george washington carver yeah another one is uh yeah he's like he's a role model why why him oh man literally uh i mean he seems pretty genius i don't know genius literally, but incredibly brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's funny. If you look at his quotes aside from the peanut and the sweet potato, which people know him for, the father of the peanut, which he has over 300 inventions that he did through that.

Wow. He patented zero of them. through that. He patented zero of them. His mindset was, I don't see how I can charge you for something that is God's creation. And so, of course, other people have now patented these things and taken what he's done. And typically you think, oh, we need a lawsuit. It's like, no, no, no, no. His perspective is, I gave to the world. We needed more. I saw a need. I fulfilled the need. And he tells you in some quotes, like, man, if you want to see the beauty of God, just go outside. And he spoke in a way that was reminiscent of the Messiah. You know, I heard one of my favorite disciples, his name is, we call him Soup, Soup Campbell. And one of the things he talks about is the perspective of if you ask anybody in the Western world, you know, it's like, and, uh, and this is not, this is not, you know, um, a diss it's like, okay, but if I asked you, describe God in three words.

Yeah. I'm like me asking you like describe God in three words. Uh, powerful, loving, uh, uh, in charge, sovereign. Yeah, exactly. Powerful in charge, all things that are sovereign. Exactly. Powerful, in charge. All things that are true. If you go to the Eastern world or places like Africa, they use material. We use, in the Western world, metaphysical concepts. Things that have to be thought up here.

They use rock, water, river know, river, you know, sun. Which is very biblical, right? There's so much material imagery used to describe God. To even mention God's scripture as a Hebrew boy, you'd have to have some honey and taste it so you understand that God's word is sweet. You know, and these material concepts, to understand God in the material and then translate that to the metaphysical and the spiritual was always something that God was doing because to understand him is whole, holistic, like our mind, body, and spirit. Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. There's a physical attribute to that, to where one of the most beautiful concepts we can even partake in when dealing with the Christ is what? Communion. Which involves what?

The physical attributes of, okay, but I'm consuming the goodness and the sacrifice. Before we consume the sacrifice in Passover, Now we're consuming the sacrifice in communion, in remembrance of him. Well, that's why Eastern, from what I hear, Eastern Orthodox, Greta, or just Eastern Christian gatherings engage all five senses, right? Where you're kind of low church Western is like your intellect. And, you know, if it's more of a charismatic, your emotions or whatever, but like your sense of smell isn't engaged.

We don't have a category. Like I went to church and my sense of smell wasn't engaged. And for us, it's not even, we don't even raise that question. I think if an Eastern person came to our gathering and said, you know, I didn't touch, I didn't touch or smell anything. Like what my physical, I feel like I'm unfilled, you know? smell anything. Like what my physical, I feel like I'm unfilled, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and, um, and it's crazy because, uh, I actually went to this retreat and we talked about, um, the Christian, how Christianity shaped that, how Africa shaped the Christian mind, you know, it was a book written by a guy named Thomas C. Oden. Um, we had a family called the

Amacins hostess, um, Roberta. Yeah, Roberta and Howard. Yeah, yeah, it's a good friend of mine, man. I'm actually supposed to do a review for her tonight. We actually did a podcast as well. But yeah, so they hosted us and we basically just talked about how to shake the Christmas mind. She was like, man, I was in Africa. And before we even did a exorcism that they were doing, which happens quite often in Africa, they lit sage and they walked around the building.

Now, mind you, the lighting of sage in America, in the Christian world is like, hey, don't light sage because, you know, that's a little too spiritual. But, you know, it's a it's a neo neo spiritual or like in ways it's like, hey, don't cross the lines, you know, but what would it mean to see somebody in a church pour oil on someone's head and make a cross on somebody's forehead or do things like, for you to receive gifts, we're laying hands on you. You know, it's like, you don't see these things because it's's like you don't want to cross the line of being too spiritual and too metaphysical to where it's like, hey, you don't want to go pagan. But when we actually have the guidelines of what that means, Leviticus is all about making sure you're not involved in these pagan rituals and how not to be involved in these pagan rituals. And the separation from, hey, you're coming out of Egypt. I understand you learn these things over here, but we got some reteaching to do. We got to train you and let you know, hey, this, we're not going to do

this. And this is what we're going to partake in because we serve the most high God. We don't serve these other deities that they worship. And so it's one thing I feel like the church possibly will start to, especially in the Western world, will either continue to ignore or at least say, man, maybe we need to expand our thought and don't just view this as a Western religion. We have to look at the roots. Where did it start? Where did it begin? And what are things that we are possibly overlooking within the scriptures themselves? Harvard, somebody who literally is a great example of what it means to be somebody who captures the material and then translates it to spiritual. He spoke a lot like Jesus, and I just love that about him. If you actually look at his quotes and read his readings, writings and stuff. It sounds like, so I originally asked you about your intellectual journey. If I can make an observation for you, your intellectual and creativity journey are just,

they're one in the same. Like, you know, most people when asked your intellectual journey, they're like, well, they might, you know, they might actually start with C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright or, you know, I don't know, their favorite kind of systematic theologian or whatever. And it's very much cognitive.

And then I would also have to ask, tell me about your creative journey. And then they might, you know, for you, I ask you an intellectual question you answered with mostly creativity, because it sounds like for you, good creativity is intellectual, and you can't separate these two. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's... Oh, bro. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In creation, you know, he has a thought and through his thought he creates, you know? And so like, and we are what? The image of the creator, the image of God. And being in his image,

God. And being in his image, what are we to do? Create. And so I went to an Axiom retreat led by Q. And I was talking to one of the older men there. He was just, he's like, yo, I really respect you creatives. I was like, us what? He's like, creatives. I said, sir, what do you do? He's like, oh, you know, I just, you know, he's downplaying, you know, definitely multi-million dollar company he's helping run. He's like, oh, you know, I hire people, you know a creative, sir. He was like, I'm a creative? I said, yes. I said, we think of the word creative and then make it artistic. Yet being a creative is somebody who creates. We all desire to be like our daddy. We all want to create.

But we have to redefine and reignite what it means to be a creative yeah because once we all understand that we're all creating together we are able to be the body yeah and you don't view somebody else's creation and say oh well you didn't make an album you didn't make an art piece it's like no you created an entire system an organization organization, a company, you created opportunities, you know, you created a cake, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like it's, it's, it's, we have to redefine what it means to create. And so when I, when I think about intellect and like the expression of what I believe it's through my creation. Yeah. And I think that's for everyone, you know, cause they, cause to me, yes, the great great observation they are one in the same

you know like like yeah we need more of that man in in mainstream evangelicals as a writer i feel like in the last maybe 10 10 years or so like like 10 years ago i probably would have said like yeah i'm not a creator i'm'm an intellect. I write religious nonfiction, not creative books. But then early on, I just fell in love with the creativity of language and equally fell disenchanted with non-imaginative nonfiction. So even now, I'll read a book and I might agree with many of the concepts. They might actually present factual information, but if it's not creative, even in the language they use,

if they're not working to use certain verbs that draw out the meaning of what they're trying to say in a creative, powerful, impactful way, if they're just using lazy, predictable metaphors and not using a thesaurus, like just not trying to, because you could say the same thing 50 different ways, but there's that one verb or don't add too many adverbs because that's going to water down, get a good creative verb that's different, but not too

different. You don't want to draw too much attention to the verb. It'll distract away from your point, but don't be lazy don't don't don't use a lazy metaphor that you know and i i say this as a goal i'm trying to aspire to not something i naturally do but you know people ask me i'll i'll read i'll read a book and it's i might agree with a lot of stuff and they'll say how was that book i'm like that's okay i'm like well wasn't it good i'm like well it wasn't very i agree i was good information was accurate and everything but it just didn't engage the rest of my my bean you know in a way that I think it could have. Battle rap is literally the same way.

Yeah. It's literally the same way. It's like there are people who say, yeah, you said, hey, I'm a great MC. But you didn't say it in a way that was like, man, I've never heard somebody say it like that. Yeah. You know? And it's not the fact you gave any new information. It's not about new information. It's, hey, within the context and the culture of today,

what does it mean to be a great emcee? And then when you're able to say that in a way that translates beyond just, hey, I said it, but I said it in a way that had alliteration, similes, metaphors, nostalgia. You brought back a memory. You brought back something that, man, I remember having that moment of this person saying this. And when you compared yourself to that person and then also correlated that to where I was in my life when I heard this and it brought me back to that moment, that's all something that shows you that you care about what you wrote so much and you put your heart in it. And I feel like a lot of what is being created right now is being created for the

purpose of just to be seen and just to be admonished rather than passion, heart, and everything that you have in your being being put into it. And that takes time and it takes, biggest word, vulnerability, you know. And so a lot of people aren't being vulnerable. Yeah. You know, and I feel like the the dope works from the church that I'm seeing today aren't coming from the intellectuals. It's coming from the people who don't have degrees, don't have PhDs, these pastors that are literally just translating and reaching Gen Z. Because they're just like, yo, I'm going to say something that you've probably never heard in church before. Now, mind you, I'm not listening. I don't wake up. I wake up listening to sermons.

That's something I do on a regular. I enjoy being stimulated mentally. And it translates spiritually and it helps me get my day started, you know what I'm saying? Hearing someone address the word and talk about the word. But like, I'm not listening to those guys, but I understand why this next generation is tuning into them because they're like, we as a church have put a lot of emphasis on teaching, but it's only one pillar of the ministry. It's like fellowship community, discipleship, serving, worship. And we, it's like, hey, when you go to a new church, what's the first thing?

It's like, oh, I got to make sure the teaching is good. It's like, okay, you can get teaching anywhere. Not to this, but you can literally wake up in the morning and I can be in your service and then tune into another service at that same exact moment. What's happening when the church doors are closing? Are you then therefore going out and having a meal with the same people you just enjoyed the word with? Are you being discipled by somebody in that community that's telling you, hey, this is what it means to do life on life? being discipled by somebody in that community that's telling you, hey, this is what it means to do life on life? Are you then also then going and serving the community so that they're able to know who y'all are and say, hey, how can we fulfill a need that is lacking within this

community of people? But we make something so about the psyche and what it means to learn more and gain more. And it's like, yo, we're going to lose out on ministry if we make this about teaching. Because what happens is when you see someone has a lack of teaching, instead of saying, hey, I want to fulfill the need that you have immediately. It's like, no, no, no. I got to give you information. You need information. It's like, oh, snap.

You believe this? You need information. So debate for hours on Facebook. Rather than, I wonder snap you believe this you need information so debate for hours on facebook yeah rather than i wonder why you believe that yeah you truly believe that man i want to hang out with you and find out more about your life to understand the root of this because this is bigger than just they we we we came up in the age of information yeah We all have it. Now we have to apply the information we have, because me saying something, you've heard my rebuttal already. But if you actually hear the heart, one of the things that was so crazy about this last year when the racial tensions were happening,

it was interesting that before even like things like George Floyd happened, you know, there was, I believe it was Ahmaud Arbery. What was interesting about that was I saw the white community say, yo, I've seen a lot of things happen, but this is blatantly wrong. Now, this isn't to say that things before weren't blatantly wrong, but why did that one hit home? Because Ahmaud Arbery was doing what? Running. What community is known for just getting up and then running in the community? The white community. That's something that y'all can relate to. It's like, man, I've gone on morning runs yeah i've never had to threaten or feel threatened for my life ever and so you were able to empathize on a level that's like wait all he did was run yeah and so that led and sparked something like man i could never imagine the feeling of being

afraid on a run yeah we don't have the luxury when you grow up in the hood to just feel like, oh, I'm about to go outside and run because you don't know what the dangers are lurking. So like there's a lack of empathy, but you're able to empathize when there is relation and you can say, man, I've actually seen this. And so information is something that we have an overload of. We need relationships and empathy. We need to be able to say, aside from me just saying this and giving you more of this and no, no, no, let me go to your, let me have lunch with you. Let me have dinner with your family in the context you know, not, hey, come over here where it's safe and then we'll have, no, no, no, let me go meet you where you're at. Yeah. Let's actually immerse each other. Like, immersion is so big to me, because immersion leads to relationship. Relationships lead to hearts, and hearts lead to the gospel. You know what I'm saying? And so I feel like rather than more information, we need more relationships. We need more empathy. We need more immersion. Yeah. Man, that's so good. And I, I,

I've been learning that as I thought through and tried to absorb the racial conversation. I've lots of conversations on the podcast about that. That's probably the number one thing that stood out to me is that over and over, a lot of people are saying exactly what you're saying, that especially generally speaking to white community, including myself, it's very information data driven. Um, and, uh, the people of color I've talked to on the podcast in particular, Tyler Burns is the first one to point this out that like, in the black community, it's we don't lead with the data, the information, we lead with the relationship, the emotion,

this event, rather than saying what are the facts surrounding this event. And again, I've been guilty of kind of leading with that. We asked the question, well, how did that feel? Have I listened to the story? What's the symbolic power of this visual, regardless of who's guilty, who did what, who did something wrong. And even with the Ahmaud Arbery case, another factor, I think you'll agree is the fact that it wasn't a cop because, you know, it's two rednecks in a pickup truck and the white community, if they see a cop and a black person and a cop, their just assumption is, well, he's a criminal, something he did wrong. And they could still maybe get to a point of empathizing,

well, maybe the cop went too far, whatever, but it's still within this framework of he's a criminal, cops are good guys, this is probably a bad guy because he's a cop, right? And in the black community, I'm going to guess it's probably, that might not be the leading assumption. Yeah. If he's a cop, he's, you know, obviously the good guy and the other guy is the bad guy. Yeah.

And it's interesting, man. Like, I didn't have a disdain for cops. I never did growing up. I just understood my dad had to talk with me. Yeah. It's like, hey, I'd rather you come home than you be right. So just listen and do what they say. Comply.

You know what I'm saying? So I never had a direct anger towards cops. It wasn't until I actually moved to the hood that I actually felt a little bit. I'm like, man, I'm there for doing ministry. Wow. Like, I'm there for doing ministry. Wow. And for me to be literally after working there, waking up in the morning, working from 11 to 2, and then clocking back in at 4 to 7, then going to drive Lyft so I can have enough money because I'm not getting paid much by the ministry.

And then get back home at 10 o'clock and just want to be outside and just, you know, saying, watch battle rap videos in my, in my, in my, in my own comfort. They're like, Hey, I'm getting a knock on my window, you know, with the flashlight of a guy saying, Hey, go inside. Cause it's curfew. You know, our, our community had a curfew. And I'm like, I'm like, yo, I'm just, I just got here. You know what I'm saying? He's like, well, either you go inside. He's like, he had his hand on his gun. I'm like, yo, what are you like, you know what I'm saying?

Same people that will, as a tow company comes in, they're walking around with these big guns and saying, hey, you know, we'll help you tow the community. And like, man, like, like, like literally all because I backed in, you know, I got to get towed and you're going to help him do that rather than, hey, you know, you can come. It wasn't any desire to be relational. It was just like fear. Like it was it was instituted. It was just like fear. Like it was it was instituted. And so like I, I, I, of course, I don't view all cops this way. I don't view all people this way. But like in the same way, like I if you don't know somebody, you don't just give them your wallet and say, hey, you know, I trust you. It's like I don't have a trust for somebody I don't know. And so like because I don't I don't know anyone. I don't I treat cops like I treat people. You know, I will love you. I will respect you. But I don't know any – like I don't – I treat cops like I treat people. I will love you. I will respect you.

But I don't trust you. I don't think like – I never think respect should be earned. That's not something that I was taught growing up. It's like, oh, you got to earn my respect. No, no, no. Everyone deserves your respect. Trust is something that I was told should be earned. And so like I respect all people, but I don't trust all people.

And so like I get why there is a disdain from the black community with things like law enforcement that work in the hoods that they never grew up in because there is a lack of empathy and relationship. So, like I said, it really comes down to just, you know, being able to get to a place where it's like, man, am I willing to immerse myself in a culture? If not, it's not a bad thing. Maybe it's not the culture you're called to go to. But then do not, therefore, place your ideologies on that culture when you do not understand it. That's my biggest thing. Don't then, therefore, say, well, y'all should be doing this. It's like, would you let me walk into your

household and say, you should be parenting your children this way? No, you wouldn't. Why? Because like, no, no, no, you don't understand what I'm doing. You don't understand what I'm doing after this, before this, during this, when I'm waking up, making sure. It's like, no, in the same way, you're talking about somebody else's household, their culture. They've built this. And you're now saying what they should and shouldn't do, based on what your experience was? How about you go empathize before you go and judge? Yeah, thank you for that, man. If I can speak on behalf of at least some in white evangelicalism, we're slowly, I think, we're starting to see that that it's not that data and information isn't important i don't think but it's that that is that where's your first go-to and and are you are you leading

with empathy listening relation and this is something i've learned i've tried to learn by listening to the lgbt community you know coming at it with a conservative christian background whatever but man when i started, that's when my whole paradigm was just undone. Because I'm like, gosh, let's just set aside the theological argument just for the time being and just absorb the story and sit in somebody's shoes for a little bit and not even ask the question, is this right? Is this wrong? Because this is a person. This is somebody created in God's image. This is a story. And you brought up a point earlier that everybody's journey and how they deal with hardship, it looks different, you know? And sometimes, you know, going back, you know, you gave the illustration of, you know,

you give someone a hug and maybe they freak out and what are you trying to do to me? You know, it's like, well, what's their, maybe they were abused by their father. Maybe there's a whole history of stuff that has just been buried and they're calloused over with all kinds of pain and junk. And certain things might trigger that legitimate pain that somebody else maybe didn't go through. So they might not understand it. But you don't understand the nuances of somebody else's pain or journey until you understand their story and their journey. Yeah. Well, man, hey, I've taken you a long time.

So I'm going to let you go. No, you're good i enjoyed all this good me too man i could keep going i just looked at the time i'm like dang i took you over um how can people find your uh find out more about you i mean obviously tiktok uh youtube instagram tell us where people can find you street hymns h-y-m-n-s so at street hymns everything you can reach me on there follow me on there if you want to see the battles look at street hymns, everything you can reach me on there. Follow me on there. If you want to see in the battles, look up street hymns versus,

and then things will pop up as well. Um, just be on the lookout for more content, music, um, you know, comedy. And I'm also writing a manga myself.

So that's coming out pretty soon as well. but yeah, you can find me in all those. Um, and, uh, yeah, we can go from there.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being on the show, man. Appreciate you. Absolutely. Take care. you