Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep881: From Trans to Detrans: Daisy Chadra

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

Daisy is a YouTuber who used to identify as nonbinary, then transgender, and now reidentifies with her female biological sex. In this episode, we talk about her story, the nature gender dysphoria and social dysphoria, some of the gender ideology that she used to believe in but no longer does, the massive role that the internet played in her journey and transition, and what kind of advice she’d give to parents with trans identified kids.  Check out Daisy's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/OllieChadra/featured Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I am here with a new friend of mine, Daisy Chadra. Daisy is a female-to-male, back-to-female, formerly trans-identified person who has since de-transitioned. I came across Daisy's YouTube channel. This must have been almost a year ago, but I've been following her story and her journey for a while now. And just always, she always struck me as being somebody who's just very,

just authentic and clear and humble and has a really interesting story. So I reached out and invited her on and she said, yes, so you're going to get to know Daisy. And it was a very interesting conversation. We talk a lot about stuff related to her story. So I think you'll enjoy it. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw support to show for as little as five bucks a month and get access to the Patreon theology in the raw community. Also, if you can leave a review of the show, if you think it's a garbage show, then please leave a one star.

If you think it's an okay show, then three stars will suffice. If you think it's great, then five stars would be awesome. If you don't want to leave a review, you can also share this podcast and others like it. I mean, share this episode and others like it on your social media accounts. The only way people hear about this show, if you think it's helpful, is for you to tell others about it. Okay, let's get to know the one and only Daisy Chadrock. hello friends i'm here with a new friend a friend as of the last two minutes uh daisy chadra uh daisy has a youtube channel and a few of your videos have absolutely blown up. And so they've gotten a lot of attention and naturally I came across them. And I just loved your honesty and just your humility and authenticity. I'm like,

man, I would love to have a conversation with Daisy. So thank you so much for coming on Theology in Raw, Daisy. Of course. Thank you for having me. Why don't we start just for our audience that doesn't have a clue who you are, maybe just share a bit about your story. And yeah, I would love to especially get into your transition and detransition and really how you're processing that now. And it wasn't that long ago when all this was happening. So, yeah. So I've been making YouTube videos for several years now. Um, and I, um, made videos as a trans man, sort of talking from a trans perspective and also kind of documenting my transition. And, you know, I was kind of in

like that niche of YouTube, which was like, you know, in 2015, 16, 17 was like, you know, pretty big, but I was a very, very like small name. I had a very small following and in, uh, 2020, May of 2020, but also it kind of started before that I came to regret my transition and, uh, realize that I needed to actually take action and detransition. And so, you know, that brought like, that kind of made the whole YouTube thing sort of a problem because it's like, well, I consider just like shutting down my channel, or I could, you know, come out and then not talk about it, or I could come out and talk about it. And ultimately, I decided to come out and talk about it. And lately, my videos have focused more on, you know, not only my own personal detransition experience, but also just kind of like going through the change in my perspective of like, you know, what, like, what does it mean to be transgender? I mean, I've been asking myself that question for a long time. It's not as simple as a lot of people might, you know, think that it is on the surface. And like, just like, the social implications of the fact there are a lot of, a lot of detransitioners

coming out. And so now I'm focusing more on that issue. And yeah, other than that, I live with my fiance in a little suburb by Chicago and work as a barista. Oh, nice. I just got an espresso machine. So I'm trying to figure out how to make a good shot. It's a lot more complicated than you would think from a distance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have an espresso machine too and i still haven't gotten it like perfect it's still coming out kind of sour but yeah the uh the the we don't we don't need i didn't have you on the talk about making shots but uh yeah it's just a texture like how how finely you grind it the packing the water i mean there's so many things that go into it.

And it really does make a – if you have a taste for coffee, it makes a big difference. Yeah, definitely. Anyway, so just for people that maybe are listening, because this is both a YouTube and a podcast. How old are you right now? I'm 23. 23, okay. When did you – well, let's go back to maybe even deeper in your past. Have you, would you say you experienced gender dysphoria? And when did you start experiencing that? Or is that even a oversimplification? based on the um the criteria that's listed in the dsm-5 you know a strong urge to like want to look like the opposite sex um like i think one of them is like strong identification

with like male characters instead of female characters which which like, I don't think that like that alone, you know, is enough to warrant like medically transitioning. But, you know, I did have a lot of discomfort with my gender identity. The thing that makes it different than like, I guess the more common understanding of gender dysphoria is that it wasn't like physically based. Like when I went through puberty and my body started to change, it's not like I was like super distraught about the physical changes that were happening to make me look, you know, that, that, you know, transformed my androgynous childlike body into something that's more like a woman's body. That wasn't exactly...

I was pretty indifferent about that whole thing. But in terms of just wanting to be a boy, wanting to be a guy, and thinking that I would just be a better version of myself if I was male rather than female that started at age like four and and so I remember saying and my relatives remember me saying repetitively that I wanted to be a boy and that I was a boy um Um, and then in elementary school I would say stuff like, Oh, I think I'm like part boy and part girl because I like realized that I was not physically a boy, but I still felt like I was a boy. Does that make sense at all? I mean, it makes sense. Yeah. It'll never make full sense. I think for people like myself and others that don't identify as trans or haven't experienced these things. But it's one thing that when I hear people's stories, and I appreciate

the nuances in your story, because I mean, I feel like everybody I talk to is a slightly different shade of gender dysphoria. Some may even say, like, I don't even know if I'd call it gender dysphoria. I heard you actually say in a video you to use the phrase social dysphoria. Am I recalling that correctly? And can you unpack that a little bit? Like this desire, like if you're in a room by yourself with your body, it wasn't it didn't seem like it was that distressing, but you wanted others to see you as a boy. Can you unpack that distinction if i'm describing it correctly yeah so that was like a really common thing that people described like in the trans community on youtube and a lot of this like the just being on the internet and how online i was totally had a massive impact on you know my choices um and there was the distinction was

like okay there are two types of gender dysphoria there's physical dysphoria and social dysphoria which like there's no there's no like actual psychological backing for that i think it's mostly just people describing their experiences, which is great, but I guess social gender dysphoria would be the most accurate, especially as I got older, like in middle school and high school, where, you know, the opinions of other people are like everything, you know, you're developing your sense of of self but you don't really know how to so you kind of go off of like what other people think of you and how other people respond to you and I think subconsciously I was realizing that like the expectations that were placed on me as a girl um were not what I felt like I could live up to but I also

didn't really feel like I could relate to like high school boys it's not it wasn't super often I mean I'm sure I had sort of feelings that were like this but it's not like I was extremely envious or wanted to like fit in with high school boys it was like it was kind of like I just felt very isolated which is and which is why like in early high school I actually identified as like non-binary because it was like I, I just felt like I couldn't really be accepted by girls or guys. And, you know, I was also being told this message that like, I have complete autonomy over my identity. Whatever I say I am is, is, um, kind of what I am.

kind of what I am. And so I was like, okay, well, let me just try thinking of myself as non-binary or gender fluid or whatever. Um, and then like, I think, uh, when I realized that that wasn't really something that was practical or made me feel fulfilled, I was like, well, then I must be trans because I'm definitely not a girl. And so when I was like 17 is when I came out as trans and I was pretty much just married to that idea and was like, okay, yeah, this is forever. And so I acted accordance with that yeah, this is forever. And so I acted in accordance with that and medically transitioned. Okay. Man, I got a lot of questions. The social aspect.

And I know, so like, and we can get into the whole debate about rapid onset gender dysphoria in a second. But like this idea that somebody's trans experience identity, and I'm using trans as a broad umbrella to include non-binary and others. The idea that that identity slash experience slash dysphoria slash whatever is, has, is, is not at all impacted by society. To me that from an outsider's perspective, that just feels like a naive view of just human nature as a whole. We are profoundly social beings, and that is 10 times magnified in the teenage years in the West. To say that that social environment just has no influence on somebody's either dysphoria view themselves, to to me that just seems like a profound

maybe profoundly naive statement about human nature like that's just this really basic i think that biology and society is all meshed together intertwined and you can't really think of yourself apart from your social environment is that but again i i this is me representing for a lot of people looking in from the outside um am i from someone who's been on the inside is that an accurate kind of way of thinking through i think you're right about the like to say that you know someone's gender dysphoria or gender identity is not at all like influenced by external factors um and like culture yeah it's just it's just that just can't be true like if anything it can be a mixture of nature and nurture but it's not like like we live we we live with you know different roles for women and men that are sort of inflicted upon us, not always aggressively.

I mean, sometimes it can be obviously extremely toxic and lead to things like violence and sexual assault. But they do exist. but they do, but they are, they do exist. And, you know, we can talk about whether or not it's like biological or if that's, again, I think it's both. Um, but I think that people tell that story, you know, that, you know, Oh, this has nothing to do with like social influences is because like we want to be able to say that like we know who we are regardless of you know yeah what what society influences yeah on us um and so i think that a lot of people really want to believe that because it doesn't necessarily like sound very convincing to say like, oh, I transitioned because of like societal pressures and cultures, you know, attitudes towards men and women. So I just I think of it almost in terms of just a broad spectrum. On one side would be biology.

Another side would be culture, environment. And somebody might be very, very heavy on the biology side. I mean, this would be like a really severe early onset. I've got friends from the time they were two, three years old, experienced severe gender dysphoria. I still think, I mean, kids start recognizing gender at six months. So I don't want to say that there's no social factors there, but clearly that's going to be heavy on the something going on

in someone's biology. All the way on the other side of the spectrum, you have the kind of self-ID perspective where people say, I don't need a medical diagnosis, you know, to be trans. If I say I'm trans, I'm trans. I don't need gender. So it's almost like there's just this raw kind of choice to be trans so that there's no real biological or at least there's no like even gender dysphoria kind of triggering. And there's a whole I mean, I would And yeah, gender dysphoria kind of triggering. And there's a whole I mean, I would.

So there's a whole range of different nature, nurture, you know, factors at play, depending on who we're even talking about. You know, does that resonate or. Yeah, I mean. And please push back if I'm totally missing something. I'm just. No, I mean, I think I think you're right about like the the spectrum um for me it was kind of like like I said at age four I had weird feelings about my gender you know um that I couldn't really put into words and like I can't really tell you why like I don't I can't tell you why

I've always had like this sort of complicated relationship with my with my like gender identity and my sex it just kind of it just kind of started when I was like very young and was sort of you know I probably had a pretty solid like grasp, grasp of, like, what girls were and what boys were, because I was, yeah, like, I realized that, like, they're sort of separated, and, like, especially when you're a little kid, and, like, in terms of people who transition, um like in terms of people who transition like or say that they're trans without any sort of like dysphoria um well i think that dysphoria can be like again but it can be a biological thing it can be something that's a little bit more inherent to the person or it can be something that is influenced by uh so social rules or culture um but i think that like when when you try to like actually just make those two distinct that's when it gets really

messy because then you get into this conversation like of like medical gatekeeping yeah and like well who who is actually trans like who who should actually transition and that's that's a huge conversation in the trans community itself it's not just people on the outside because people like want to distinguish themselves from you, people who they might deem like not really trans and are harmful to the trans community and give give us a bad name or whatever. So, yeah, it's a really complicated conversation and one that I like am hesitant to offer any sort of like like definitive answers yeah no totally my experience it's been definitely been a mixture of both okay did you ever i've heard from especially biological females that well sometimes i mean statistically uh in my anecdotal experience oftentimes um the dysphoria can be wrapped up into some kind of

like internal misogyny or just a really high view of maleness and kind of almost a low view of femaleness. Sometimes it's linked to past trauma. Did you experience any of that or is that, have you found that to be true? I think I did. Now, from what I know, I don't think I was ever traumatized, thankfully. I don't think I have any past trauma that would really live up to the word trauma. I mean, my parents got divorced, but I hesitate to call that traumatic. And the gender stuff happened before that. I hesitate to call that traumatic, and the gender stuff happened before that. But I definitely had a high view of maleness and a low view of femaleness for as long as I can remember.

I mean, I'm definitely starting to get over that now. And it just got so much worse when I was like transitioning um why well because you I mean the idea of someone calling me she her or like seeing me as a female was just like profane like that like it yeah like when and I feel like a lot of it is just like self-centeredness the self-centeredness of a 17 18 year old um like I it was very like um, like, I, it was very, like, it was very upsetting when I wouldn't, you know, pass. And that's actually kind of how my social dysphoria, I think, turned into physical dysphoria, because it was my physical characteristics that were keeping me from being seen as a man. keeping me from being seen as a man. But even when I transitioned, I did not see a man when I looked at myself.

You know, I didn't look like a full-grown man. I looked like a very young boy. But also just like it had a lot to do with like being taken seriously. One, you know, physically transitioning would like I felt like I needed to physically transition and go all the way for people to take me seriously as a trans person. And I also felt like I just needed to look like someone who was of the male sex to be taken seriously. who was of the male sex to be taken seriously. Which, you know, I guess if you want to call that internal misogyny, that makes sense as far as like where it came from. I honestly don't know. That's something I would probably want to work out with like a psychoanalyst, but

yeah, that was definitely there. Well, there was a, there was an informal survey done online, so it wasn't put through like a rigorous methodology. It was basically just an online survey. And I think it was asking for testimonies from female to male trans-identified people. I'm not sure if it was only those who detransitioned or those. No, I think it was just kind of exploring their experiences. And I think in that survey, I think it was 250 different people,

all female to male, or at least females with dysphoria. I think it was something like it was over 80 said that dealing with internalized misogyny helped alleviate dysphoria on some level so there's so there was some sort of connection i thought that was and again i i don't really cite it because it was not like it wasn't peer reviewed or whatever but still that that was that's pretty and just anecdotally as i talk to people that that does seem to be fairly common So it's just something I've been thinking through. And in a society where clearly maleness and male domination is an issue, and you said you didn't have any past trauma, but a lot of people have.

I mean, gosh, the abuse rate is very high, or even emotional, physical, sexual abuse, mostly by males in our society. And especially in religious communities, we can go there. My gosh, that's a whole nother podcast. But yeah, I'm just, it's an interesting thing to consider. And it's hard because as you know, I mean, it's, I mean, everything in this conversation is so debated and we're not allowed to have conversations but i mean in some circles like just exploring some sort of psychotherapy you know is seen as toxic you know if somebody says they're trans or trans and that's it don't

even ask questions about possible internalized misogyny or whatever but it's like i just don't think that's loving people well if we're not if we're keeping off the tables valid questions it's not like it's not that like we don't want like arguments for um certain therapeutic methods to deal with gender dysphoria that don't involve transitioning are quickly labeled as conversion therapy because i think people think that we want to minimize the amount of trans people who exist but that's not the case like the difference between that kind of therapy and like for example gay conversion therapy is because um gender transition is a really really really serious thing to do to your body yeah and it you know especially now that there are a lot of people who are regretting it like i think we can say like that might not be the like one size fits all solution for the gender dysphoric teenager or or just

person right um and like that is exactly especially in like 2015 2016 that is exactly what like young trans people were told basically that like if you are gender dysphoric then you need to transition otherwise you will like be led to suicide which is like it's such a that is such a dangerous thing to tell like young people who are already emotionally struggling and maybe have felt suicidal yeah because it's not like it's not like me at 17 would hear that and think like, no, I mean, I'm probably emotionally resilient enough and mature to figure out how to handle this on my own. Like, I don't think, you know, I don't, I'm not like, so, um, unhappy

that I'm just like on the, like, I, I was suicidal during that time. I had really, I had really severe depression, um, all throughout my life. So when I was told that it was like not, it was not super difficult for me to believe and act accordingly and transition to help myself. Because again, like, I did not see a way out. I did not see any solution. I could not look into the future and envision a version of myself that's like, that really comes to term with their, not only their femaleness, but their womanhood. Yeah. I think I also like just the fact that with, with girls, we sort of encourage passivity and a lack of confidence. Um, and I think that definitely leads to, um, internalized misogyny, um, at least without trauma.

Um, and then with trauma, it makes perfect sense to me that like, you know, to interpret trauma as like, it was my femaleness that is the reason why I was hurt, is the reason why I was abused. And so I need to like destroy my femaleness in order to protect myself. Now, I don't want to like, again, I haven't been through trauma and I don't want to like put my own narrative of what I think that process is. But I have heard it described that way and it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, go back to your 17 year old self. How could you have been loved? Well, maybe by a parent, good friend. Cause I know like that's, this is the, cause I get, I mean, it's not uncommon for me to wake up with a dozen emails from parents with the 17-year-old you, you know, and they're crying out, what do I do?

If I do anything other than fully affirm everything my kid says, then I'm considered toxic and I have severed the relationship. I don't know what to do. I don't want them to go on testosterone. I don't want them to transition. But I don't know what else to do. I don't want them to go on testosterone. I don't want them to transition, but I don't know what else to do. How can I get through to my kid to at least speak some, some delay, some reason into maybe what they're going through? Um, it's so hard. It's heart wrenching really to get these emails in. But, and again, this isn't prescriptive, but descript, like just go back to your 17 year

old self. How would you, if you were your parent, how would you have loved you in that moment? Well, I mean I think that any action, any like more severe action that my parents could have taken would not have been met by me as – like I would not have welcomed it. Like they were not for me transitioning. In fact, they were pretty horrified by the whole thing and begged me not to. And they tried to articulate why they didn't want me to. And my mom would say stuff like, I just don't think you're trans, which like me hearing that as a 17 year old, it's like, F you, you don't know me better than I know myself. Like, I know I'm trans. You don't know anything about me. Um, and like, it was hard because there were like moments where it, it, it felt like my pain or discomfort was like being minimized or like that I wasn't being

believed. And it's not that they didn't believe me. They just like, they knew that I was really young and that I was going to change in a lot of ways psychologically as I, you know, grew up and became an adult. And, um, honestly, like I wish that they, I mean, it would have infuriated me and I would have pitched a fit, but I wish that they would have like taken the internet away from me with like, yeah. I mean, I was on, I was on the internet all like all the time. Like it was just, it was the way that I relaxed and, you know, could sort of escape and not think about real life, which, you know, is very normal for a high schooler, but, you know, not healthy when it's that bad. Daisy, this is something I've wondered about this specific question. I'm so glad you brought it up because we know that the Internet

can be a massive river of indoctrination, influence, oftentimes in a negative way. And yet yet if that's the kid's only lifeline if the parent just takes that away it seems like that could really backfire is what i've heard from some people other people say no do whatever you can to cut it off so i'm really in this i'm trying to understand like especially parents listening because i want to make sure I give healthy advice. Um, I mean, it was, it is, it would be severe. Um, and it wouldn't have backfired. Like you wouldn't have just ran away from home or done. I don't know what I would have done. Honestly, I probably would have told my friends at school and like asked to live with them or something. And they could

just tell me that I had like transphobic authoritarian parents and that. Yeah. for like, I don't know. I don't know even how long it would have to be. I am not a parent. I'm definitely not a parent of a teenager. So I like I don't know. Let me give some thoughts and I would I would love your critique, agreement, whatever. Like, it seems like the number one thing is a parent needs to establish a loving, trusting, caring relationship. Obviously, there's going to be argument, disagreement.

I mean, that's just, I've got four teenage kids. So this is the world I live in. And I feel like, you know, maybe a day probably doesn't go by without some argument, some whatever. But it's the relationship has a thick foundation of love, commitment that weathers some of the teenage volatility. That seems to be the number one goal as a parent, how can I just love my kids so well that if I push back, if I give if I be a parent, it may be not received in the moment, but it's not going to fracture the relation. Like it's it's not going to sever the relationship. So that's number one, like established. That's the number one goal.

Number two, if you do take drastic measures like cut off Internet, maybe even just say, hey, let's as a family, me too, me included, I'm on my phone too much. You know, maybe the parent can say, let's just take a take a break, maybe just do Internet on the weekends or something. Or or maybe if you have the funds to do it, could you get away for a month or two? You know, maybe. In fact, I heard a story that their kid was way into horses, right? And I think they got away to some kind of horse camp or something. Get them outside physically using their bodies away from this weird Tumblr world or whatever that isn't the real world. And I know that most families probably don't have the financial means to do that,

but just break up the rhythm. So you're replacing – you're not just taking away the internet. You're replacing it with something that is actually enjoyable. Everything I'm saying right there, do you have any thoughts on that? Does that sound – No, I mean I think that sounds like it would have been really good for me probably to not only not have the internet because I think you know it would probably be really rough if I like just on the not like long term but it probably would have been really rough on my relationship with my parents 17 year old self me relationship with my

parents if I just had no internet and I had to like you know go home and like just I don't know find some other way to distract myself I'd probably get stir crazy because I was so addicted to it but if there was like yeah freaking horse camp or something like something something to replace it something where I'm like actually using my hands and like observing the world around me like in the book irreversible damage there was you know a story about a girl who was like about to transition and her mom was like nope this isn't happening and like took her to like a sort of camp retreat thing and it like it like helped like it like she was able to like work through her dysphoria now i'm not saying that like

see that's also tricky because how does a parent know if if transitioning isn't going to ruin their kid's life what if it what if what if it does like make them happy and you you know especially back in 2015 2016 it was like well detransition isn't even a thing like people who transition like know themselves and are it it helps them mentally like it alleviates their gender dysphoria and they're like living happy fulfilled lives or so it looks that way on the internet right like or you know it's people didn't know about detransition it was like this super and it it still kind of is. But, you know, back five years ago, it was something that just, you know, it was pretty unheard of. Right, right. it's growing and i know this is another subject of debate it's like we're kind of dependent upon what seems to be like an explosion of anecdotal stories on youtube and elsewhere um can you if

someone challenged you on that saying i don't know daisy like yeah it's still maybe one or two percent whatever would you say it's a significant enough number of percentage, not necessarily detransition, but say transition regret that should be considered? Or how would you back up your statement that this is a growing phenomenon? Yeah. I mean, we'll see what happens. it does really seem like, like you said, with the explosion of, you know, internet testimonies, and just public testimonies about it, about transition and regret, like, yeah, there are more of those. And it's not like I wasn't seeking them out before, like detransition has always been something that I was like, interested in just as a topic topic I was kind of scared to like look into it too much because it was like the idea of me detransitioning was so terrifying that I didn't

even want to like like oh my god what if I relate to what these people are saying you know um and if you look at like the detransition um subreddit there's a subreddit for detrans and i don't know what the number is now i um but it's that has definitely like grown from like i don't want to give an inaccurate like um number but i think it's up to like 20 to 30 000 now i can i can look at yeah twenty thousand members i thought that got canceled or taken off or was that something else on reddit it did for um like a day oh okay uh and then it got it was some i don't know what happened exactly but then it got recovered okay but that was like yeah i remember when that happened and that was a year ago Okay. But that was like, yeah, I remember when that happened. And that was a year ago, like right when I was like, accepting that I was detransitioning,

and I was reading that subreddit. And I was like, yeah, that was infuriating. Because it seems like, you know, they were removing it for like, hate speech, when it's literally just people talking about their experiences like we're not talking about trans people or trans rights or like that's yeah right it's not it's not a turf subreddit right right i mean i've i've met the transitioners that i think this is largely what i'm hearing from you is that this is your story. You're trying not to make it descriptive. Transitioning might work for other people. It just didn't work for you. Then there are some other detransitioners I know that are maybe a bit more adamant against.

And maybe you feel this way, too. I don't know. The ideology that they were bathing in that led them to transition and they're very much they're still descriptive they're not saying it never takes but they're saying there is a a really dangerous ideology that's kind of wrecking a lot of kids lives um i mean yeah i would honestly say that i i agree with that okay um and that's kind of where i have to tote the line of like how like i don't want to say like oh this is just my story over and over again to where it sounds like i don't have any beliefs or actual thoughts about it like the way that we talk about gender identity especially to

young kids like saying like just because you have girl parts doesn't mean you're a girl. Yeah. And it's like, well, then what am I? You can be whatever you want to be. Like saying that to a four year old, like, I don't know what that does to their psyche. I certainly don't think it would have been beneficial for me to have heard that as a four year old. And is that really being taught and said it's not just like a because some people say oh that's just a fear tactic from those on the religious right or whatever like this isn't really going on um is i've seen like children's books

where like that's the basis of it and yeah, gender identity education is being taught in some public schools. And like, yeah, like I said, we don't know what that does to a child's understanding of the world. Like it really does seem like just a big social experiment and Yeah, like we don't know what it's doing and then I Definitely like it. I definitely was indoctrinated into that

Ideology as a teenager. Can you describe that a bit more for people that don't know what that looks like being indoctrinated as a teenager? Well, it was more, I mean, I do have to take some responsibility in that because I was, you know, older. It's not like I was a four-year-old or like, you know, just a second grader. And like, I had like, cause that wasn't a thing when I was in elementary school. Um, but I did like seek it out. Um, and so it's not like, I don't want to like put all of the blame on just like society made me transition. Like that's not entirely true. Like, what I was, I guess, learning about, if you will, was that, like, your self-declaration of your identity and whatever you feel like it is, is unequivocally what it is. essence inside of you that is trans or is non-binary and um and that that's just whatever you find that to be is is just the truth um and everyone around you ought to accept it

yeah um and it was often compared to like you know being gay, your sexual orientation isn't really something that changes. Generally speaking, it's pretty stagnant and it's something that is true about someone if they're opposite sex attracted or same sex attracted or attracted to both um it's sort of talked about in the same way with gender identity um yeah but yeah so yeah and this is i don't i didn't bring you on to necessarily get into a philosophical conversation but but it is the term gender itself in many contexts is almost unhelpful in that it's defined so differently and without much reflection um because i i do hear gender obviously you know sex and gender are different, whatever. Most people acknowledge that.

But then it's almost like people still use gender as a synonym for sex when it suits whatever they're trying to say in a certain sentence, you know? Like, even the phrase, like, my internal sense of gender, that phrase makes no sense. Because if gender is an internal sense of who you are, which is the definition, right? Internal sense of yourself as male, female, both or neither is the standard definition of gender identity. Then the internal sense of an internal sense doesn't make any sense. Like oftentimes gender is used to define gender. Yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying. And like said my identity is a – or let's not do that. Let's say – I don't know. I'm just making this up as I go. But let's just say – if I said, hey, Daisy, I bought a new Tompernickel yesterday.

And he said, what's a Tompernickel? Well, a Tompernickel is my sense of Tompernickelness. It's like, wait, I still don't know what Tompernickel. Well, Tompernickel is my sense of Tompernickelness. It's like, wait, I still don't know what Tompernickel means. So if I say... You have to have an external sense of it. Like you have to be like, what is the purpose of a Tompernickel? Or like, what does it look like? How can I identify it? Right. If I said, well, a Tompernickel is different than a car. Okay, so what is a Tompernickel? Well, it's if i said well a tompernickel is different than a car okay so what is a tompernickel well it's an internal sense of a tompernickel yeah what is so i mean uh so sex and gender are different right yeah that's that's the yes okay so you have males and females and a small percentage of an intersex condition and some males have

and females have gender dysphoria okay so, so what is the gender identity? Well, it's your internal sense of yourself as male, female, both or neither. But we can at least on a scientific, basic scientific level say, okay, but factually they are still male or female, right? Yes, but their gender identity is different. Okay, what's gender identity? Well, it's the internal sense of, well, but they are male or female and they might have gender dysphoria.

So I feel like people play word games sometimes to try to to construct some kind of ontological aspect of humanity that is kind of standing with two feet in midair with regard to gender identity. And let me just acknowledge that, again, this is this is my cisgenderness, my whatever. Like, but I'm just trying. I don't want to at all dismiss somebody's real experience. I mean, feelings and emotions and experiences are absolutely real. Gender dysphoria can be debilitating. So I don't want to diminish that. But I am trying to take these concepts and at least understand them on a kind of a basic philosophical scientific level. And I still, I'm'm at a it's one of

the most entertaining things i do is when i read books on gender identity or gender i take the definition of gender identity and insert it into every time they use the word gender identity internal sense of self as male female both or neither and it's hilarious sometimes the sentence structures that are created when you just take the definition that they have used for this term. And that's what I'm like, I don't. Well, it's like with if we're going back to the distinction between sex and gender, like I think it's easier for most people to understand or at least describe what sex dysphoria is, which is the physical, deeply ingrained, early onset feeling of, I need to be the opposite sex in a physical sense. And it's debilitating and can be awful awful for people and a lot of times transition is the

solution um now for people who didn't experience that exact feeling and more of like what gender dysphoria is then like if you're talking about gender and i think that a general good definition of what just gender is is femininity and masculinity. Right. and men should wear pants or, you know, things that could be argued to be biological, like, oh, women are more passive and relational, and men are more assertive and, like, more oriented to, like, things rather than people. But if you're talking about an internal sense of gender identity, and you're using that definition of gender, which is like a pretty like widely agreed upon definition of what gender is. Like I do believe it is certainly different than biological sex.

You have to like if you're not talking about the social and cultural definition of gender, then I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Well, and you brought up, I mean, so what you're describing is sex stereotypes. Yes. So I guess my, and this is something, right? I mean, many feminists have pointed this out, so I'm not saying anything new here. But I still, I wish this was still more of a conversation. here. But I still, I wish this was still more of a conversation. Like how is the modern conception of gender identity or gender role not resurrecting and giving credibility to these sex or sexist narrow stereotypes about how men and women should be? So if I were to, if somebody says,

I'm male, but my gender identity is female, and I said in a genuine, in a genuine way, if I said, okay, you know what? I really want to understand what that is. Can you describe that to me? But if I said, describe that to me without using sex stereotypes, it seems like that'd be almost impossible. I mean, I had the same sort of problem when I tried to explain this to my parents so i tried to justify like why did i have a male gender identity right and yeah like that is where the the feminist i guess sort of gender critical radical feminist argument comes in which is like well aren't you just aren't you just taking on like female stereotypes and i'd like i get it like i get why it makes people uncomfortable like especially like more feminist

types uncomfortable i don't really use the label feminist for myself i mean i i i do but i don't like i'm not like an activist type so there's so many different kinds of feminism. Right. So, yeah, like I'm not like a feminist activist, but I would say it would be accurate to describe myself as one like just a feminist. To see certain trans women getting the lip injections and trying to look like plastic Barbie doll types. Yeah. If it makes that person be able to live their lives comfortably and happily, then I don't feel like I'm one to say stop doing that. then like I don't feel like I'm going to say like stop doing that. But I definitely get why it makes people uncomfortable because like they're really sort of like playing into these more harmful stereotypes of femininity, if that makes sense.

Well, I think two things can be true at the same time. I can take that case, somebody who kind of maybe a male to female transitions and, you know, huge boob job, tons of makeup, tight mini skirts. I can say you are a human being. As a Christian, you're creating God's image. You're beautiful. You're valuable. I'm so excited that you exist and I will do everything to stand against any sort of bullying, any sort of mistreatment of you as a human being. That's just a basic Christian posture, or should be a basic Christian. Yeah. Fortunately, many. Anyway, I can do all of that.

And even in a democratic society, I can say, hey, I think it's absolutely unjust if you get turned down renting an apartment, bathrooms and athletics. That's a little bit trickier of a conversation. But in terms of just you living your human existence, I'm going to support that. I can also say I think you're resurrecting and embodying and promoting sexist stereotypes that are more reflective of the male gaze than actual womanhood.

I can do both at the same time. But in today's society, it's like, no, if you even say anything that seems to disagree with or even point out maybe some problems with that societal contribution. I don't know. Yeah, anyway. Yeah, I totally get that. I mean, it's, yeah, and the bathroom issue, because on effort and time and money into your transition, you can get yourself to be indistinguishable from biological females or vice versa, To a point where like the whole like – well, what is useful to say like what your sex is? In medical context, then it seems more useful to like say like your sex is male. But like with bathrooms and changing rooms, which are two very different things. I never saw the bathroom issue to be that pressing.

Honestly, I thought it was like people making a big deal out of nothing. And you raise a great point though, that isn't often brought up is people say, well, bathrooms should be based on biological sex. And I would say generally, sure,

but we're not checking people's Y chromosome at the door and if somebody has transitioned you can cry all you want they're still biologically male or whatever but if they look very female like you don't want blair white going into the men's room you don't want butch not butch um oh who Buck Angel going into the women's room. Exactly. Right? But they're both biologically, you know. Claire White actually made a video of her, like, going into a men's restroom just to see what happened, and she got kicked out of the restaurant she was at.

Oh, yeah. So, like, it's not socially practical in that sense, you know. Like, people, I think people who are genuinely trans and not trying to pervert on people which i think is a kind of a fear-mongering tactic right that i don't think really exists at least to the extent that they make it out to like are just trying to use the bathroom yeah and totally and are trying to use the bathroom safely because, you know, even if you're not a like trans woman who passes really, really well, like maybe you have like really broad shoulders or really tall or have a deep voice or whatever, like it's not exactly safe for you to go in the men's bathroom either. Like that's where it's like, you know, we have to take into consideration both people's safety. And I think that like it could be really dangerous, at least in some environments, for a trans person, a trans woman, even one who doesn't pass as well to go in the men's room.

Now with trans men, this just isn't even a problem. um now with trans men this just isn't even a problem like yeah if i if i used the women's restroom when i looked male people would not want me in there like because i like didn't really look like a full-grown man but i didn't look like a female. Most people read me as male. So like I had literally no issues. Society did not get any worse with me, a biologically female person using the men's restroom for four years of my life. So yeah, the bathroom thing is just hardly even like worth debating anymore.

But then like things like changing rooms and especially prisons is where I think that sex segregation is necessary. Because I agree that the bathroom thing, there is some sensational headlines. So I'm not saying it doesn't happen, meaning a biological male identifying as a female who actually is a predator. I am not at all saying trans people are predators. I'm saying predators exist, whatever your identity, as a female who actually is a predator i am not at all saying trans people are predators i'm saying predators exist whatever your identity as a small percentage um so to trans people are not predators but some are some cisgender people are predators some gay people are better some straight people are predators like that predate predating um is is a common minority experience with all humans.

But it has been sensationalized. But with the prisons, though, I have seen more where it is a growing issue where male biological males will come out and identify as females. Do they have gender dysphoria? Do they have autogynephilia? Do they have? Well, I don't know. But they're lowering the bar on what it takes to be placed in a female prison. And there is. It's sensational in the sense that it is still a minority thing.

But it's an issue that doesn't, I mean, I've read enough stories and cases and stuff. This isn't just a one or two things. It is happening. Yeah, I've seen the same thing um and i was wondering if maybe it was just because i'm following more like i don't know i do follow more like right wing commentators now than i ever have so i thought that maybe that was just why that was happening or why i was seeing more of that. But yeah. Yeah. If it really is true that there are prisons

where it just takes someone saying that, oh, I have a female gender identity and that's all it takes for them to be put in a women's prison, then that's deeply unsettling. Yeah. Yeah. But I would need to do a lot more First hand and it's not because I don't even listen

To right wing well every now And then I'll listen to a podcast but it's mainly Like these moderate Apolitical classical Liberal You know Like a Joe Rogan or Tim Pool

Who get labeled, they both get labeled kind of conservative, but there's nothing conservative about, but just people that are just, just, just looking at things from an honest perspective with little ideological. Anyway, we're getting kind of off track,

off track, but oh, where were we? Can we, would you at all? I, and I know you, you've been on a journey here and Daisy, if, if, if you're like, hey, I'm still working through this, I'd rather not talk about it, but you do have a faith element in your journey, and I know you're still on a journey, whatever. Were you raised religious? Where are you at now? Again, if you're not, if you don't want to talk about it, I'm totally fine with it. I'm just curious.

Yeah. Yeah. So I wasn't raised like, I mean, we went to church, you know, at sometimes more consistently than others. But it wasn't really something that was talked about at home. Okay. home. Um, like it wasn't like my parents like really raised me like to be a Bible believing Christian or with any sort of particular faith. I think they wanted to, but like I basically became agnostic and an atheist in eighth grade because I thought about it for like a little bit and was like, this doesn't make sense. Like this isn't this, it doesn't make sense that this is true. So, you know, I won't believe it.

I remember, I remember like, I, uh, I was part of a youth group and in middle school and I became really terrified of hell and like whether or not I would go to hell and like, well, what is it? of hell and like whether or not I would go to hell and like, well, what is it? If you, if I swear, do I go to hell? Like, what do I have to do to not go to hell? Um, I remember, um, sorry, this is kind of like going off on a tangent, but I remember one time in, in youth group, we like, we had like a bonfire outside and we would write down a sin on a piece of paper that we like vowed to stop doing. And then we would throw it in the fire. piece of paper that we like vowed to stop doing and then we would throw it in the fire and one of mine was like I'm gonna stop swearing because I couldn't think of any like better like I don't know um and so

yeah after like eighth grade I became like a pretty staunch atheist I was like that's you're just dumb if you believe that like um and i think in like yeah i didn't really think about it much like religion or spirituality very much until i was like 20 and then i started like i became really interested, not even necessarily for me to practice, but like, charismatic Christianity. Like, the sect of Christianity that really tries to like, incorporate the supernatural element of it and make it real and tangible. I'm like, look, I'll show you, I'm going to heal this person, or like, I'm going to speak in an unknown tongue. Like, look, I'll show you. I'm going to heal this person.

Or, like, I'm going to speak in an unknown tongue. And, like, you know, it's, like, acting out as if, like, God is actually there and manipulating things. And I was like, what is this? Like, I don't know. I don't know why. I found it interesting from, a psychological perspective. And I was interested in like evangelicalism as a whole and just like the language that they used and, you know, what they believe and how they live their lives. Because I was like, wow, these people live like some of these videos of like certain christian influencers being like is it okay to hug before marriage like yeah like really like extreme stuff and i and i don't know why i found

it so interesting um because they also seemed really really happy um and i always you know i do see that there's a lot of wisdom in living with restrictions but also that's not the point yeah like that's not the point of you know being a person of faith faith is the point faith itself is the point um at least that's itself is the point um at least that's yeah seems to be right like yeah and most western evangelical restrictions aren't don't directly like come from the bible um yeah so and that's that so it's more of a culture a religious cultural phenomenon and even the restriction i don't like strict i like uh maybe guidelines kind of like you're driving around a windy road and there's guardrails like i think that's if there is a god and a creator of course he's gonna help us to live in line with his

creation the way he's designed it which might come with like any parent some don't do this don't do that don't put your two-year-old by the edge of the pool your five-year-old's not allowed to drive the car when maybe when they get older they are you know but given the cultural context of like when the Bible is written it's hard to apply that you know to day-to-day totally totally yeah yeah cultural context is every I mean that's so my I have a PhD in biblical studies and so you can't read the Bible without immersing yourself in that unique cultural context, understanding your own cultural context, and then making a responsible application. Yeah, that's interesting. So I guess I should quickly talk about how that influenced the detransition thing. So basically,

I was going to churches a lot, you know, as a trans man, not telling any of the staff that I was trans, because that just was scary. Especially like, I went to a Pentecostal church, and they really love bombed me, and were like, trying trying to like get me to be a part of their church and get baptized like i went once to this church um and i was like okay you don't i don't know how that because they definitely have more like conservative beliefs and i was like you can't know you can't like i don't want that this to get out because like, I don't want people to like try and change me. And like, that's, this is like boundaries were really being crossed. Um, and so basically I was like, okay, I don't think I can really do this unless I detransition because, you know, not just because then, you know not just because that you know then i can tell other people i'm trans

or whatever and be honest about who i am um it was just like i think like it makes sense why god wouldn't want me to do this like it it it it seems clear that like i am sort of messing with like God's design and purpose for me. And that like, it, it, it made sense. Like I felt like I couldn't really reconcile being, being trans and being Christian. That's where I say that my personal anecdote comes in. Cause I'm not about to like, you know, say someone else like, Oh, you're not a genuine Christian if you're trans. Like,

I'm not even, I am not even Christian anymore. Who am I? So when I realized I was detransitioning, this was sort of in the midst of like, me being really like, eager to really try Christianity, there was a veil that was lifted, I think. And I felt like, okay, now that this is taken care of, I can really go and like, really pursue this and read the Bible no longer as just like this ambiguous, like text, but read like like let's see what happens if I read this assuming that it's true like capital t true you can't really do that you can't like you can't really just make yourself believe that like I can't read I don't know pride and prejudice by Jane Austin and be like this is the ultimate reality this is the rule book of life and I need to interpret it and apply it to my life. I can never believe it enough to really stake my life on it.

And yes, that's different because Pride and Prejudice is Pride and Prejudice and the Bible is considered a holy text, which I don't know what that means. But your analogy makes sense, though. You can't force belief. You can't just convince yourself into belief. Today, I can't believe something that I don't believe. And I was like, well, I have to have faith. And I prayed so much for God to give me this sense of faith. That was like, that was like, I wanted to give my life to Jesus. Like I really wanted to like live according to,

I like, I wanted to be a Christ follower and, and in the most genuine way that I could, but I also did not agree with a lot of what the Bible said. And it's like, well, is this the word of God or not? Like, is this just something that was written by like some men who were trying to, you know, create a sort of like society that was based on like this idea of God? Is God just an idea that this book is based on or is it the word of God yeah literally yeah and ultimately I was like it's not and then eventually when I said that it's not my faith just kind of dwindled honestly I stopped praying and I was no longer interested in like finding a church and yeah no thank you for sharing that and i know i

i i just again i love love your honesty and and i know it can be scary to even talk like this on a christian podcast or whatever but i just i so appreciate i just love honest people um and honest stories so thank you for that um so you um so right so i curious, because you connected your periodic, we'll say faith or Christian involvement with your detransition, but now you're, so you no longer have a faith commitment, but you're still embracing, you're not re-transitioning, right? So do you see your detransition now apart from a faith lens? Like this is still right for me apart from my religious experience yeah i mean it was it's not like i detransitioned because of christianity oh okay something that like it's like okay now that i've accepted that i need to detransition because of

all of these other reasons um now i can like now i can be a christian which i know is not like yeah i know you're not supposed to like fix yourself before you get saved it's the idea that like you get saved and jesus fixes you it's like again i don't really know what that means either um yeah but yeah yeah i um my faith dwindling did not have any like impact on whether or not my detransition a good a good thing for me to do okay and just so you know you've uh given what you've told me you've you've experienced one kind of sliver a strand of christianity there's a whole bigger christian world out there. And I'm not, I'm not saying good.

I mean, I was like, I was like kind of just broadly non-denominational. Okay. Like I was still interested in that, like the charismatic section of it. But like I went to a non-denominational church. I was Protestant,

like evangelical Protestant. Um, national church. I was Protestant, like evangelical Protestant. Um, and since I've made my last Q and a video where I disclosed that I was no longer Christian and kind of gave like reasons why I've gotten a lot of comments telling me like, Oh, you should, you should try Catholicism. You won't run into these problems. It's like, or, you know, you should try this. You should look into, you know you should try this you should look into you know you should read the quran and like i'm i'm like i'm actually good i think yeah yeah yeah yeah well i appreciate that at least for now well hey daisy thank you so much for being on theology in the raw and i just um there's so much more we could talk about but you've given us a lot to think about it again i just so appreciate

your just your humility and graciousness. So thank you for your posture and for being, yeah, for being on the show and for your honesty. Really appreciate it. Of course. Thank you again for having me. All right.

We'll see you later. Thank you.